Paddlewisers, I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, sucked, yanked or whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some big wave in the surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed by some decent waves, and this has never happened to me. Are these stories just a sorry excuse for losing one's cool and blowing the hatch too soon? Maybe their boats aren't fitted tight enough? I just don't know! Duane Strosaker Whose legs would have to be ripped off before he could be sucked out of the cockpit! <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pirateseakayaker/index.html">Pirate Sea Kayaker</A> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed by some decent > waves, and this has never happened to me. I've also never been pulled out I have however seen a paddler noseplant coming down the steep face of wave (he was too high on it as it steepened) and get literally catapulted out and foward of his boat. spectacular - kept us all amused for a while. he was fine. I recall he was fairly loose in his boat. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, sucked, yanked or > whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some big wave in the > surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed by some decent > waves, and this has never happened to me. Are these stories just a sorry > excuse for losing one's cool and blowing the hatch too soon? Maybe their > boats aren't fitted tight enough? I just don't know! > I have never been ripped out of a kayak cockpit, but last fall we accidently did a big water (4.1 feet) canoe run of the Chatooga. It was low when we started, but it rained all day. My canoe has a Perception saddle. For those of you unfamiliar with these, they have massive knee braces in front and Yakima footpegs behind, so that when you kneel in the boat, your lower leg is firmly held in. When I swim, I have to think about it. Anyhow, at one point I misjudged a hydraulic at the base of a rapid and got stuck in the hole. I was able to side-surf it for a few seconds, then flipped. As soon as I was upside down, I was out of the boat and taking a _deep_ swim. I did not decide to exit, I was out before I had time to think about it. I came up about 50' downstream. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote (or trolled<g>): > I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, > sucked, yanked or > whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some > big wave in the > surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed > by some decent > waves, and this has never happened to me. Are these stories > just a sorry > excuse for losing one's cool and blowing the hatch too soon? > Maybe their > boats aren't fitted tight enough? I just don't know! I have a strong feeling that many kayaks aren't properly fitted for their owners. I fit nice and snug in my stock Skerray, but would literally fall out of my Seaward Ascente when I tried to roll it. It took a bit of customization of the cockpit before I felt "secure" in there. I'm curious about how many Paddlewiser's either need to or already have customized their cockpits for a good snug fit. The other component that I think might be problematic in some instances is the sprayskirt - especially on those kayaks that have large keyhole cockpits. If a "ton" of water hits the skirt and "implodes" it, well..... From a safety standpoint I can see the advantage of a large keyhole cockpit in WW kayaks - a large cockpit can significantly reduce the odds of a paddler being trapped in the case of a vertical pin, but in a sea kayak I don't know that the benefits of a large keyhole cockpit outweigh the exposure that a large exposed spraydeck has. My opinion may change with the years as my joints get creakier, but for now I'm more than willing to deal with the entry/exit issues of a small cockpit. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
David Seng wrote: > I have a strong feeling that many kayaks aren't properly fitted for their > owners. I fit nice and snug in my stock Skerray, but would literally fall > out of my Seaward Ascente when I tried to roll it. The first kayak I took a lesson in was a CD Storm without the thigh brace kit installed. The first thing they taught us was how to do a wet exit. The first time I went over, practicing bracing, I popped out so fast my hat didn't get wet - my shoulders barely entered the water. Towards the end of the (two day) course, I couldn't do the assisted rescues well 'cause I couldn't roll the kayak up with me. I switched to a tight little kayak to continue. I flipped and got stuck - forgot to wet exit!! I panicked, but could hear the instructor bellow "WET EXIT" and I did. Both my kayaks (WW & SK) are set up for me to be nice and snug! > The other component that I think might be problematic in some instances is > the sprayskirt - especially on those kayaks that have large keyhole > cockpits. If a "ton" of water hits the skirt and "implodes" it, well..... > From a safety standpoint I can see the advantage of a large keyhole > cockpit in WW kayaks - a large cockpit can significantly reduce the odds of > a paddler being trapped in the case of a vertical pin, but in a sea kayak I > don't know that the benefits of a large keyhole cockpit outweigh the > exposure that a large exposed spraydeck has. There are reinforced sprayskirts that resist implosion. Some have a plastic rod that bridges across the coaming. Never used one, but I understand the better of these are quite reliable. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm curious > about how many Paddlewiser's either need to or already have customized their > cockpits for a good snug fit. a good source of constant fiddling and adjustment for me (there's always a reason for time fiddling with boats in the shed!) - especally in improving the footrests set up. I've got an RM skerray and I think VCP shuld be rapped over the knuckles for their poor (uncomfortable, insecure, too small) footrests in the otherwise nice skerray. I've got a false bulkhead/footrest now (thin plywood on layers of rigid builder's insualting foam), adjusted so i'm nice and snug lengthwise without being too uncomfortable - some adjustment possible using the back band. I've have made foam knee pads and braces, Also have put a layer of thin closed cell foam around the hip pads on the seat - took the sea tout, taped the foam on around the edges of the hip pads with duct tape and jammed them back in with the seat so its all neat. VCP seat owners should know what I mean. on this topic I now have some really nice self-adhesive thin foam for this sort of job from Knoydart in the UK - quite cheap too as far as foam goes, which i my experience is quite costly for the sort of stuff we want. I also got some good knee braces of a design i have found very good yet very simple. I bought one and have used this a template for others - cutting foam from old body boards to shape with a jigsaw. They also shaped a piece of foam to fit in the rounded front bulkhead of the skerray - this acts as base for my false bulkhead/footrest. I had tried various means to produce such as base with some success, however Knoydart's bit of shaped foam is perfect and no fuss, I just coughed up and it arrived. Excellent stuff http://www.knoydart-kayaking.co.uk/index.htm nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Jan 11, 2000 at 11:09:37PM -0500, Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: > I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, sucked, yanked or > whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some big wave in the > surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed by some decent > waves, and this has never happened to me. Are these stories just a sorry > excuse for losing one's cool and blowing the hatch too soon? During a wildwater race about a year and a half ago, I was forcibly removed from my (whitewater slalom) kayak by a rather large hole on the Deschutes River. The violence of the event was enough to thoroughly wrench one of my knees, probably because I was trying very hard to stay in the boat and had jammed both of them against the deck. Believe me, the very last thing I wanted to do was swim the rest of that rapid, but the river didn't give me any other option. Based on that experience (and some others, including some where I managed to stay in despite being thrashed a bit) I'd say that holes are more likely to extract paddlers from their boats than waves. Impacts (which can jar the paddler so that their brace points are no longer in contact with the boat) tend to hasten that process...as do imploding sprayskirts, something that I try to avoid as much as possible. ;-) ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/11/00 8:12:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, Strosaker_at_aol.com writes: > I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, sucked, yanked or > whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some big wave in the > surf. Been there, done that. I paddle lots of boats that are mostly stock, and I am rather on the short side (my height, darn it). I've been both partially and totally pulled out of boats during thrashings and I know people who are younger, taller and stronger than myself who also have been. I attribute these embarrassing and sometimes dangerous events to a number of things: 1. Boat Fit. Others have mentioned this. Many manufacturers in recent years have come out with much-improved thigh braces, which make many stock boats easier to hold onto than they used to be. However, for complete security, most usually need some additional padding. I've had problems with boats that otherwise fit OK solely due to the lack of hip padding. We use Velcro-attached hips in our WW and surf class boats to outfit for various paddlers, and I have trouble staying in them if I forget to snap in some pads. 2. Slippage. I have had problems with seating surfaces which were too slippery (an outfitting problem), but also when wearing multiple layers of clothing -- due to slippage between adjacent layers. During warm-water / cool weather paddles, I sometimes wear lightweight goretex pants over poly long johns These slippery fabrics have made bracing and rolling precarious for me on occasion. Again, this is more likely when paddling a boat which is not optimally fitted out for me. 3. Impact. I have a friend who is an accomplished Class-5 WW boater, squirt-boater and experienced sea kayak guide who had never wet-exited outside of demos and practice in his entire paddling career. Then he was caught inside of an 8 to 10-foot sneaker wave, went over the falls (backwards) and landed upside down. He doesn't even remember being blasted out of the boat upon impact. Boat fit may not help here. 4. Surprise. I have capsized on waves suddenly and been surprised by the unexpected force of that particular wave. I have come close to being plucked from boats this way, needing to grab the coaming and pull myself back in place before I could effectively roll. Shouldn't happen, but sometime you just might not be focused. Here, optimal boat fitting will help, but is no guarantee. 5. Foot Slippage. Nick Gill mentioned the footbraces in his Skerray RM. In fact, the footpegs supplied with our VCP boats are Yakimas, which are as good or better than the Keepers which are so common on US boats. But I, too have had problems in big water when my foot has slipped off various footpegs, loosening my knee-grip on one side and forcing me to hold onto the boat in ways the human body is not designed for. Boat fit helps here, but can be negated by slippery pegs or soles. Cleaning the soles of your shoes every time you enter the boat is a good policy. 6. Wrong place / wrong time. No matter how bad and mean you may be, there's bound to be a wave out there that's badder and meaner. Not being there is sometimes the only thing that can save you. 9. Wimp Factor. Maybe I just didn't eat my Wheaties. Keep getting trashed on a regular basis and it just might happen to you, too Duane. But my advise is to take your legs with you :^). Happy paddling Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > I occasionally read stories about kayakers being ripped, sucked, yanked or > whatever out of the cockpit when they are thrashed by some big wave in the > surf. I've been slammed, cartwheeled and thoroughly thrashed by some decent > waves, and this has never happened to me. Are these stories just a sorry > excuse for losing one's cool and blowing the hatch too soon? Maybe their > boats aren't fitted tight enough? I just don't know! > I've heard a story of someone having had the boat pulled off in huge surf, leaving the skirt still attached to the boat - he came out through the neoprene tunnel! Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jan 12, 2000 at 08:11:38PM -0800, Frank Lucian wrote: > I've heard a story of someone having had the boat pulled off in huge > surf, leaving the skirt still attached to the boat - he came out through > the neoprene tunnel! I've *seen* it: Jim Powell, at Double Hydraulic on the Lower Yough, about two years ago. It was truly an amazing thing. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Excellent summary by HTERVORT. I can add one other. While surfing I went vertical on a wave face and very skillfully (firmly) planted (pearled) my bow into the bottom. I'm not sure of my position during the various cartwheels and half gainers that followed but I held onto my paddle. I think my biggest problem was loose fit in the boat but it is was rigged more for touring than surfing. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't like the keyhole cockpit arrangement personally. It does secure you well enough once you lock you thighs under, but I find the "birthing position" tiresome and painful for long periods of time. I much prefer the ocean cockpit, where knee support (with some padding) gives more security. The thigh braces of the keyhole cockpit work in such a way that if you slip out from under that position, you loose all purchase, and can then easily come out of the cockpit, though in actuality, you usually always have one leg still left holding you in. I installed a custom curved knee tube in conjunction with the ocean cockpit of my VCP kayak. I have a constant source of comfortable bracing and support, and can spend hours in rough seas, happy as a pig in ship. As I am always braced and ready, sudden occurences, boomers, eddies, etc, don't as easily trip me up. I am also relatively short, so the arrangement works well for me. I did run a seat belt for a few years, when I was single. I did a lot of whirlpool paddling, and was nearly sucked out of the boat a few times. In those extreme conditions, you MUST remain in your kayak for the inherent buoyancy afforded. To come out of your boat is unconscionable. The seat belt idea is a good one for sit on tops (Tsunami Rangers call them wash-decks), but for closed decked kayaks with the double undo issue of a spray deck before you could release the seat belt, was a bad idea (like, duh). The knee tube idea was what I came up with instead, though I do not run big whirlpools now that I have a family and trying to develop a more middle-brow attitude. While I have been partially sucked out of my kayak in 10 foot clapotis waves off the breakwater (I have actually been thrown up out of the water), I have always remained in the kayak. Keeping sprayskirts and prescription glasses secured has been a bigger issue. Man, I hate wearing glasses for this sport! And I've had contacts washed out too. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who still gets chills thinking about the chances he took when he was a younger man) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Seng wrote: >I'm curious about how many Paddlewiser's either need to or already have >customized their cockpits for a good snug fit. I customized my handmade wood kayak, but with it, it was either a custom fit or no fit! While I was installing the seat, hip pads, and knee braces, I was also taking pool roll lessons from a friend, in his WW boat. Since I was used to the fit of a WW kayak, I made my sea kayak fit as snugly. > The other component that I think might be problematic in some instances is >the sprayskirt - especially on those kayaks that have large keyhole >cockpits. If a "ton" of water hits the skirt and "implodes" it, well..... There are large sprayskirts available with plastic or aluminum "implosion" bars. Anyone tried these? Do they work as advertised? Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Several years back I was playing with a plastic sea kayak in the surf at Long Beach. Just as I completed a roll I was broad-sided by another large wave. Since I was playing too much attention to my sweep and hip flick and not enough to keeping my knees locked against the deck, I found my self doing a text-book brace on the wave, marred only by the minor detail that I no longer had a boat. Depending on whether you're kayak-centric or paddler-centric, you could say the boat was sucked away from me or vise-versa. MORE BELOW SNIP >I attribute these embarrassing and sometimes dangerous events to a number >of >things: SNIP >2. Slippage. I have had problems with seating surfaces which were too >slippery (an outfitting problem), but also when wearing multiple layers of >clothing -- due to slippage between adjacent layers. During warm-water / >cool weather paddles, I sometimes wear lightweight goretex pants over poly >long johns These slippery fabrics have made bracing and rolling precarious >for me on occasion. Again, this is more likely when paddling a boat which >is >not optimally fitted out for me. I'm big fan of applying lines of Shoe-Goo, Aqua-Seal and similar rubbery goops to things to increase traction. I've used it successfully on my cycling over-booties, the bottom of my winter camping down booties (prevents that embarrassing glissading back down 2000 feet of snow slope when you're answering nature's call in the night)and on the top of my self-inflating sleeping pad to grip my sleeping bag. You can sprinkle the drying goop with salt or sand for additional grit and grip - the salt rinses away but leaves a grippy texture. On your own boats you could try this on the fabric of the seats - and I suppose if you really put function ahead of fashion you could goop the knees and bottom of your Gore-Tex pants for use in loaner and rental boats. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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