I see I could have saved myself some writing by reading ahead on the digests that were already on my computer as may people had already made my points. One of the troubles with the digest format is that I haven't been able to figure out how to flag the individual posts so I can easily get back to the ones I might want to respond to after I have gotten caught up on all the post to date. It is so much easier to respond immediately (unfortunately I may be several days behind the times). I would like to respond to some of the later posts concerning our company, (Mariner Kayaks). >Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 09:40:52 -0500 From: "John Myers" <jmyers_at_longbranch.k12.nj.us> Subject: [Paddlewise] nearly fatal It seems a bit odd that manufacturer or dealer would sell a kayak lacking adaquate flotation. The last boat I purchased [made by Wilderness Systems] came with fore and aft float bags as standard equipment. An acquaintance, new to the sport, purchased a Northwest Kayaks Sportee. This boat was equipped with an aft hatch/bulkhead arrangement but there was no floatation of any kind forward of the cockpit. I didn't discover this until the new paddler had a few hours in the boat and when I pointed this out to him, he expressed his surprise that the sales person hadn't mentioned the necessity of floation in both ends of the boat. Said sales person had taken the time, though, to convince him that a graphite paddle was essential. Mariner Kayaks apparently do not supply float bags as standard equipment, either. But I suppose if you've reached the Mariner level, you probably know all about that stuff, anyway. John<< Since no store other than ours sell our kayaks and Cam and I are the only employees in our store you can be sure that no customer who orders a kayak from us and doesn't order the float bags for the end(s) of a kayak that might need them doesn't get asked why he didn't order them. Sometimes they inform me they have float bags already. In that case I question them further about what size they are since there are a lot of float bags on the market that are way too small to provide a maximum (or sometimes even adequate) flotation. >>Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:55:04 EST From: Tomckayak_at_aol.com Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Mariner (was nearly fatal) In a message dated 3/7/00 4:41:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, jmyers_at_longbranch.k12.nj.us writes: << Mariner Kayaks apparently do not supply float bags as standard equipment, either. But I suppose if you've reached the Mariner level, you probably know all about that stuff, anyway. >> By the time you pick up your new Mariner you will have received more then enough safety talk. If you think Matt's E-mails are long and informative try going into the shop and asking a question. That is if someone else has not asked a question first, in that case you may have to cool your heels for a half hour or so:) Since they make kayaks without bulkheads, the need for Float bags is a requirement that you pay for above the base price of the kayak. I paddle a Mariner MAX without hatches or permanent bulkheads. Tom C. Edmonds WA.<< Thanks for the clarification Tom, but since your post could be misinterpreted to mean we don't offer a bulkhead option as well, I would like to make it clear that a rear bulkhead and hatch is also an option on all our kayaks and front bulkhead is also an option on our Mariner II. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debbie, Wow, what a powerful story. Sort of says a lot in a short space. For the retailer who sent you out in test kayaks without checking them, great way to make a potential sale, wouldn't you say? For the sale to a new guy without proper safety gear or instruction- refer to the bicycling community where litigation is costing manufacturers and retailers money and leading to stupidity like requiring lights on all bikes sold with no regard for bicycle usage or light capacity. For the club and the show, how do you measure the cost benefit ratio of one life saved? Remember, the new guy (or lady) who gets the right training and equipment may keep paddling (and buying stuff like most of us) and will certainly act as an example to others, just by "doing it right". The level of activism you decide on should be whatever you are comfortable with-- Ralph's recent story of harassment can serve as a cautionary tale here-- but the questions are simple ones: If not me, who? If not now, when? I don't want to sound preachy, I think you are just venting, which is very necessary, especially in the face of all that accumulated ineptitude and lack of care. Basically safety is a lot like the environmental cause mantra "Think globally, act locally." You did that, good on you. Keep fighting the good fight! R/ Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Meanwhile I think that we should redouble our efforts at shows such as >Paddlesport to get the safety word out. SNIP >We can't force people to listen but that doesn't mean we should keep >trying. Mohawk Canoe Club once put together a package of safety info, et al., and got one of the bigger dealers in the state to include it with every boat (we tied it onto the boat itself). To check for effectiveness, we included a FREE subscription to our monthly newsletter for a year. We know that buyers all got this package. We also know that there was NOT ONE return for the newsletter. This too worries me. And its why I will do a safety talk now and then at non-paddler stores or to outdoor groups. There is a huge segment of the boat-purchasing public that has no clue. They don't even know that they don't know. Unfortunately, what happens to them reflects on all of us. So we do have some stake in trying to get the safety message out. Joe P *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debbie, thank you for a very honest post. I have seen the same situation (though not to as large an extent). I would also like to be able to print up a flyer with basic safety information--especially when Costco sells sea kayaks sans PFD's. Other than the boat shop where I do part-time work, I see a lot of negligence, and I don't like that. I had the interesting experience of paddling with a newer paddler this weekend. He had been paddling all winter with the owner of the boat shop, who is an expert racer. They've been training on the river behind the shop. In the river, if anything goes wrong, you stand up and walk to shore. For our trip to the local (BIG) lake, The New Guy was clad in a drytop, polypro top, PFD, and cotton jeans!!! He was wearing the jeans when I picked him up, but I assumed he'd change (like I did) when we reached the lake. Well, not so. Since he is a friend, and could become a trusted paddling partner, I didn't lay into him too heavily, but I kept emphasizing throughout our trip the water's temperature (around 35*), the effects of hypothermia, and how quickly you can lose motor function and dexterity at those cold temperatures. I think I'll gradually get him into the swing of things, safety-wise. Oh yeah, and he also thought my hot spaghetti lunch midway was a Good Thing! There is gross negligence and good ol' ignorance everywhere. If we don't start doing something (beat safety into the dealers and mfg's heads with a 2x4) then I fear that legislation may be raising its ugly head just down the road. Good luck with your club's booth at the Paddlesport show--I wouldn't stress safety too heavily at the show (like the dealer said, people may not listen to you then), just get people involved. Once you get their dues (!) send them the newsletters with all of the safety information. After the initial "I got a new boat" euphoria wears off, they'll be looking for more information on their new sport, and they'll pick up the newsletter infused with good advice, and hopefully then take it to heart. Take them out in the winter time and have a few veteran club members volunteer to demonstrate cold water rescues sans cold-water clothing, and show how quickly a person loses function. Warm up the vets with warm tea and blankets and let them admonish the beginners through chattering teeth about the dangers of cold water. Shawn Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debbie Reeves wrote: > I wonder, should our club continue to participate in the show - with such enormous amounts of obvious negligence? Right now my answer is a tentative yes; perhaps attendees visiting our table will hear some safety info, perhaps they will decide to join the group and read the informative articles in the newsletter, perhaps they will have the opportunity to attend a group trip and receive paddling tips. Perhaps. Discouraged in Sandy Hook, NJ < Thanks for the posting - and hopefully writing it all down helped relieve some of the stress created by the incident. Don't give up on the safety/education issue. Yes, it is an uphill battle and no, you (we) will never be able to declare "success". People cannot be forced to _want_ to learn. Sometimes teaching by example is the best way - I'm sure that "TheWetOne" learned some lessons that he won't soon forget. We never know what the results of our even seemingly innocuous actions may be - have you ever thought about what the effect may be of watching an obviously competent kayaker, clad in impressive looking clothing and gear, taking the time to don a PFD or a helmet? Something that "simple" in our minds might someday make a life or death difference for the "newbie" who happened to be sitting at the boat launch watching the kayakers that day. So don't give up, keep on striving in the direction your heart tells you is right, and if you feel compelled to carry the battle to manufacturers or dealers choose your battles carefully and wisely. You may or may not be able to bring about change in that arena - but you as an individual, and as a club member, can have enormous impact on individuals who choose to participate in the world of paddling. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: >Now hold on a minute, did I read this right? Are you accusing the dealer of >gross negligence based on the statements we have seen here? Has anyone >spoken with the salesperson that sold the craft? Based on this you are >trying to figure out a way to "deal with" this particular dealer? Sounds >like a quick and speedy trial by email to me. Unless you have far more >information than you are sharing here I think you are being quite unfair. Debbie wrote: >The boat is an Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible >floatation. Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. >.. >He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told anything about >the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports experience. He >was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he needed was a PFD. >He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would have been less negligent! It sounds like the guy did ask some questions at the dealership, but was told very little. C'mon, the dealer is in the business of selling kayaking gear; we can both agree on that. They missed out big time, not selling the guy a paddlefloat, pump, sprayskirt, and some float bags. Ralph Diaz also wrote: > I think we will have to put our heads together > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this > particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without > thinking about it. Sounds like a pretty sane statement, doesn't sound like a "trial by email" to me. Debbie raised some very, very good points. She did not name the dealer, just raised some issues. Naming the dealer and calling for an open boycott would be a trial by email. Issues were raised that need to be addressed. The discussion and solution of those issues in this forum could quite possibly alleviate future regulation. Nobody said the dealer should be sued. The dealer should be educated to better educate their customers. The dealer is the first entity seen by the New Paddler. If the dealer as an education resource is bypassed, natural selection is going to kill a bunch of ignorant (ignorant: "they don't know any better") people, and THAT will result in regulation. Like you said, it all boils down to personal responsibility, but people need to be exposed to safety resources to be able to make safe (or not safe, for that matter) choices. If you don't have a clue about what is safe and what is not safe, then personal responsibility doesn't mean much. If you won't paddle with people who don't wear PFD's, do they know that you won't paddle with them because of that choice or do you just leave them wondering? I personally don't think that dealers should be legally liable for the good or bad choices made by their customers, but I do believe that they have a moral obligation to let their customers know that there are risks associated with kayaking. Shawn Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Shawn and all, > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn W. Baker [mailto:baker_at_montana.com] > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 12:56 PM > To: Rob Cookson; Paddlewise > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal > > > Rob Cookson wrote: > >Now hold on a minute, did I read this right? Are you accusing > the dealer of > >gross negligence based on the statements we have seen here? Has anyone > >spoken with the salesperson that sold the craft? Based on this you are > >trying to figure out a way to "deal with" this particular dealer? Sounds > >like a quick and speedy trial by email to me. Unless you have far more > >information than you are sharing here I think you are being quite unfair. > > Debbie wrote: > >The boat is an Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible > >floatation. Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. > >.. > >He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told > anything about > >the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports > experience. He > >was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he > needed was a PFD. > >He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. > > Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the > dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's > statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some > (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no > flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional > flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would > have been less negligent! I think you are missing my point. My point is that this was a hasty statement made with no firsthand knowledge and with information coming only from one side. We do not know what was said between the dealer and the client and yet immediately the reaction is that the dealer is accused of gross negligence and it is suggested that they should be dealt with in some way. I'm saying that it seems like pretty strong words given how little is really known about the situation. > > It sounds like the guy did ask some questions at the dealership, but was > told very little. C'mon, the dealer is in the business of selling > kayaking gear; we can both agree on that. They missed out big time, not > selling the guy a paddlefloat, pump, sprayskirt, and some float bags. How do you know that the dealer didn't try? We have not heard from the salesperson at all. Again you are leaping to conclusions without any real evidence. I have seen this time and time again with rec boats where a salesperson says that the new paddler needs a pump and a paddlefloat etc etc and the customer says no thanks I'm just fishing near shore. What do you propose? Would you make all safety gear mandatory? Should all kayaks be required by law to ship with sp****n's? How about a vhf and a cell phone? Those are clearly valuable rescue tools should all dealers be required to sell those too? > > Ralph Diaz also wrote: > > I think we will have to put our heads together > > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this > > particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without > > thinking about it. > > Sounds like a pretty sane statement, doesn't sound like a "trial by > email" to me. It may sound sane to you but it sounds horribly one sided to me. Sounds like the dealer has been convicted and the judge is now deliberating sentencing. > > Debbie raised some very, very good points. She did not name the dealer, > just raised some issues. Naming the dealer and calling for an open > boycott would be a trial by email. Issues were raised that need to be > addressed. The discussion and solution of those issues in this forum > could quite possibly alleviate future regulation. I agree that Debbie raised some good points. I also think that not naming the dealer was prudent for a number of reasons. > > Nobody said the dealer should be sued. The dealer should be educated to > better educate their customers. The dealer is the first entity seen by > the New Paddler. If the dealer as an education resource is bypassed, > natural selection is going to kill a bunch of ignorant (ignorant: "they > don't know any better") people, and THAT will result in regulation. The dealer is not necessarily the first entity seen by the new paddler. How many times have I heard that so and so took me paddling and he says I don't need one of them there ______. People are introduced to this sport in many different ways and many have some pretty strong notions by the time they get to the dealer. I agree that dealers can be very helpful in terms of education. I believe that both the companies that I have worked for were extremely helpful in terms of educating new paddlers. As I have said I am all for education, in fact I love teaching this sport, and I stress safety. But and this is a big but. The dealer is in no way responsible for the safety of those that buy product from them. It is completely up to the individual buying equipment to learn how to use it safely and properly. My whole beef this issue is that the terms gross negligence were brought out hastily and with only half a story that is at best third hand. Think about all of the products in your home and then think about the ones that are dangerous, then ask yourself how many of them came with an education at the point of purchase, and then ask yourself why should kayaking be different. If you didn't like my examples of firearms, autos and ladders lets look at one in a related industry. How about backpacks. I recently bought a new pack fro a shop that is supposed to be renowned for it's educational philosophy. Not once was I warned about back strain, twisted ankles, being eaten by bears, falling off cliffs or any of the other ways one can meet with injury while enjoying a backpack. When I purchased my last bicycle no one asked me if I knew the traffic laws of the state or even told me which side of the road to ride the bike on. Why then do we expect kayak retailers to impart all of the hazards of kayaking? We don't have this expectation of other retailers. > > Like you said, it all boils down to personal responsibility, but people > need to be exposed to safety resources to be able to make safe (or not > safe, for that matter) choices. If you don't have a clue about what is > safe and what is not safe, then personal responsibility doesn't mean > much. I agree knowledge=power but it is the responsibility of each individual to seek that knowledge. > I personally don't think that dealers should be legally liable for the > good or bad choices made by their customers, but I do believe that they > have a moral obligation to let their customers know that there are risks > associated with kayaking. > I would say that this individual was aware that there was some risk or he would not have been wearing a pfd. I am also willing to bet that there was a warning label in the boat. I do agree with you that dealers should share as much knowledge as possible, I've never said otherwise. My whole objection here is with this quick judgment made on the retailer with very few facts and the use of the terms gross negligence. As I'm sure you can tell the issue of personal responsibility is one that I feel very strongly about. I think that we should all keep in mind that when you point a finger there are four pointing right back at you. Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Normally, I don't send a "me to" posting. But Shawn covers it quite well in his reponse below. There is no rush to judgment. I will speak privately with Debs about what to do. We don't know all the facts; we may never know. Some one said in another post, maybe it was Shawn, about the cost-benefit analysis of attempting to spread fundamental safety advice. That where I see the crux of the discussions. It is beneficial to work hard to get 1 out of 10, or whatever the ratio, to get started right in terms of skills and gear. You help reduce the odds that one life will be jeopardized and that person in turn, as a multiplier effect, will influence others into a more positive approach to safety. Debbie is so great at imparting safety information in her newsletter, in Atlantic Sea Kayaker trips, and at her booth. She is tiredless in this; she will be at that booth just about at every hour of the Paddlesport show. I get zonked just watching her doing it all. She is passionate about the sport, about helping others. She's concerned, active and is making a difference. If we had a dozen more Debbies, wow!!! ralph Shawn W. Baker wrote: > > Rob Cookson wrote: > >Now hold on a minute, did I read this right? Are you accusing the dealer of > >gross negligence based on the statements we have seen here? Has anyone > >spoken with the salesperson that sold the craft? Based on this you are > >trying to figure out a way to "deal with" this particular dealer? Sounds > >like a quick and speedy trial by email to me. Unless you have far more > >information than you are sharing here I think you are being quite unfair. > > Debbie wrote: > >The boat is an Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible > >floatation. Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. > >.. > >He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told anything about > >the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports experience. He > >was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he needed was a PFD. > >He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. > > Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the > dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's > statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some > (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no > flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional > flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would > have been less negligent! > > It sounds like the guy did ask some questions at the dealership, but was > told very little. C'mon, the dealer is in the business of selling > kayaking gear; we can both agree on that. They missed out big time, not > selling the guy a paddlefloat, pump, sprayskirt, and some float bags. > > Ralph Diaz also wrote: > > I think we will have to put our heads together > > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this > > particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without > > thinking about it. > > Sounds like a pretty sane statement, doesn't sound like a "trial by > email" to me. > > Debbie raised some very, very good points. She did not name the dealer, > just raised some issues. Naming the dealer and calling for an open > boycott would be a trial by email. Issues were raised that need to be > addressed. The discussion and solution of those issues in this forum > could quite possibly alleviate future regulation. > > Nobody said the dealer should be sued. The dealer should be educated to > better educate their customers. The dealer is the first entity seen by > the New Paddler. If the dealer as an education resource is bypassed, > natural selection is going to kill a bunch of ignorant (ignorant: "they > don't know any better") people, and THAT will result in regulation. > > Like you said, it all boils down to personal responsibility, but people > need to be exposed to safety resources to be able to make safe (or not > safe, for that matter) choices. If you don't have a clue about what is > safe and what is not safe, then personal responsibility doesn't mean > much. > > If you won't paddle with people who don't wear PFD's, do they know that > you won't paddle with them because of that choice or do you just leave > them wondering? > > I personally don't think that dealers should be legally liable for the > good or bad choices made by their customers, but I do believe that they > have a moral obligation to let their customers know that there are risks > associated with kayaking. > > Shawn > > Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N > © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W > ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ > baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/6/00 9:07:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!, baker_at_montana.com writes: << Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would have been less negligent! >> Shawn, I for one would reserve judgment and sentencing on this dealer. I don't know what the conversations between the new paddler and the shop people were. Did he misrepresent experience, did he promise to purchase safety gear before going out, etc. I am not saying that there were things that could not have been done better. Truth is, I don't know what took place, I wasn't there. I would say this, boats should float. Positive flotation should not be an option. WE SHOULD DEMAND THIS FROM ALL MANUFACTURERS. It's a start. I visited the Old Town Website, if the model was correct "Loon," then it does have positive flotation. See http://www.otccanoe.com/const_polylink.html according to the manufacturer. Bruce McCutcheon WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am not that familiar with the Loon so I went by Debbie's description. Oh Wes, how well does your boat float while swamped? :) >From the description, I think the dealer was wrong. I didn't say "they must be punished". TheWetOne was wrong too--just as negligent. It happens all the time, but I hope we can somehow find a way to stop this misinformation and lack-of information. I haven't advocated any sentencing; I think we should demand that all dealers provide safety information, including information on paddlefloats, rescues, positive flotation, PFD use, and emergency signaling. Just like your demand from manufacturers for positive flotation. Like I said in my earlier post, the dealer is very often a newbie's first contact with the paddling community; not using the dealer for an initial information source is a big mistake. You're right. I don't know what took place either. It's a "he said, they said" situation, but I do know from personal experience, as well as anecdotes from others, that there are a lot of people venturing out there who are not armed with the right information, skills, or equipment. The PW discussion a week or so ago [Risk vs Natural Selection] is symptomatic of what's going on. People on this list, to some extent, lecture each other about safety. While the prevailing safety attitude here is great, it's the novice who has never heard of Paddlewise who needs to hear the message about safety. We all realize that there are people who know little about safety and are getting or risk getting hurt. We speak out to the only kayak-relating audience we know of--each other. But, we're preaching to people who already realize that safety is important. They don't always know everything about it, but they're in the right place to find out. We need to find a wider audience, "get the word on the streets", so to speak, and let people know simply that safety is important, then help them find resources (like PWise) to learn more about safe techniques. Shawn > << Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the > dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's > statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some > (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no > flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional > flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would > have been less negligent! >> > > Shawn, > I for one would reserve judgment and sentencing on this dealer. I don't > know what the conversations between the new paddler and the shop people were. > Did he misrepresent experience, did he promise to purchase safety gear > before going out, etc. I am not saying that there were things that could not > have been done better. Truth is, I don't know what took place, I wasn't > there. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:15 PM 3/6/00 -0700, Shawn W. Baker wrote: >I am not that familiar with the Loon so I went by Debbie's description. >Oh Wes, how well does your boat float while swamped? :) > The Loon that I used to have would float when filled. Not by much, though. The floatation mostly comes from the foam between the plastic inner and outer layers. It really needed extra positive floatation, via air bags or something. While the Loon is a good boat for a recreational boat, it does have its limitations. Although I wish I still had it so I could take beginners out on quiet water, I upgraded in boat because I could see that I was coming up against its limitations. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From the information in the original post, I don't think TheWetOne was negligent. One first has to KNOW what is the right behaviour/action. AND then not do or perform that action/duty. Yes, TheWetOne was wrong but he did the wrong thing out of ignorance. The dealer on the other hand is another story. A boat with positive floatation is a good thing. The ListConsensus seems to be that if one has a boat without bulkheads then one needs floation bags. Not so much as to keep a swamped boat floating but to displace water and make it easier to recover from a mishap. Less water in the boat means less water to empty. He did not have float bags on a boat that lacked bulkheads. He apparently did not have a pump or scoop to remove the water. He did not have proper clothing for the conditions. He did not have a change of clothes IF he got wet. He did not understand the limitations of his craft. He did not understand the effects of cold air/water. He did not understand the effects of the wind. .... We will never really know what went on between TheWetOne and TheStore. But TheStore SHOULD have informed him of all of the above. TheStore would have made money selling TheWetOne the equipment. TheStore is the first and often ONLY link between a customer and the paddle sports. Safety really HAS to start with TheStore. Are they totally responsible for a person. No. But most people getting into paddling just are not going to know all they need to know. The conversation between Debbie and TheDealer was disturbing to me. TheDealer seems to have his head in the sand. How hard is it for TheDealer and better yet the industry to create a list of links and books on paddling safety? How hard is it to pass out information listing warnings about cold water, wind, tide, etc? Not. TheDealer is just told that one of HIS customers almost died and when offered FREE documentation to help prevent another accident what is HIS response? No. Not a good answer. When I bought my kayak 3 years ago I was struck but the lack information from the manufactuer on even HOW to maintain their product. The warning lable is a joke. There was even less information in my canoe I bought eight years ago. I think the Industry, both the manufactuers and the dealers could/should very easily create a common safety guideline, that could not and should not be all incomposing, but it easily could cover the basics and recommend other places to get information/training. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink" The problem is that the industry, at the point of sale, is not even leading the way for people to learn about boating safety. This is not to say that some dealers don't provide this kind of information. I'm sure they do. I know of one in my area. But I don't see the industry doing anything to promote safety at the point of sale OR thereafter. Look at the accident reports that we have. A good number of them were caused by people being ignorant of paddling safety issues. Now, I don't think that a simple guideline is going to prevent all accidents. It won't. People wont read the guidelines. Or they won't follow up and continue their education. Or they will forgot. Fine. BUT, at least TheIndustry gave the customer a helping hand in the right direction. TheIndustry at least took them to the water.... The reality about boating safety, as well as other kinds of physical safety issues, is that it is an ongoing process that can never stop. One of the benefits of this list is that by just simply trying to follow the list, SOME safety tips have to sink into your head by simple osmosis if nothing else. But how do others find the list and other similar sources? By word of mouth. TheIndustry could so easily change that situation. Debbie, don't beat yourself up too much on all this. You did what you thought was right based on the information you had at the time. No one got hurt and since you shared the experience with the list new paddlers/rescuers are more informed. My two cents.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com [mailto:dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com] > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 2:46 PM snip > A boat with positive floatation is a good thing. The > ListConsensus seems > to be that if one has a boat without bulkheads then one needs floation > bags. Not so much as to keep a swamped boat floating but to > displace water > and make it easier to recover from a mishap. Less water in > the boat means > less water to empty. I have never paddled an Old Town Loon (prefer Common and Pacific Loons myself), or even seen one, but reading the Old Town ad on the back inside cover of the March, 2000 Canoe & Kayak magazine it appears that Old Town touts their inner foam core between the two layers of linear poly as providing "built in flotation". Literally true - perhaps. Responsible and practical for real world paddling conditions - perhaps not. Will somebody die because of marketing techniques - I certainly hope not - but somebody came close this past weekend...... Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, To Debs: Your response to this unfortunate soul's plight is laudable. I have every confidence that you treated this person with compassion and grace. I only hope that he listens to your advise and seeks help from a local club regarding safety training. Please don't boycott anything it will only serve to weaken your position. To Rob: I too (not surprisingly) think that the tone of the postings has been somewhat damning. I too feel personal responsibility is the only thing that will properly address the potential for death via common objects. But no one addresses, prior to sale, the dangerous aspects of kayaking. This should change. To PW: Old Town's definition of built in flotation is accurate for the nature of the craft in question. This boat will not sink but it is not capable of being paddled while swamped. Without any water displacing floatation the boat fills with water quickly and is nearly impossible to right unless you have great upper body strength *and* excellent footing. This boat is the quintessential "recreational kayak" designed, built and sold to "entry level" kayakers, in other words a boat in search of an incident. To the Store: Thousands of these boats have been sold and used without incident...until now! They should be sold *with* floatation or not at all! Shame on the salesman for not expounding the dangers of winter paddling to an obvious novice buying a boat in the wintertime! Would you sell a gun to someone in the midst of a psychotic episode? Of course not??? well......??? Do not underestimate the negative effect of bad press. Tread lightly when dealing with a safety concerned paddle club administrator with an audience, you may live to see your patrons buy elsewhere. To Ralph: What you decide to do must be based on fact. I have every confidence that you will think long and hard before taking some action that might hurt a potential safety node like the dealership in question. To PW: Every boat that I have bought came with an owners manual, however sparse, they did include cautions to seek training and additional safety information. I suspect the OT Loon came with such a manual. Deb did the right thing, the WetOne lived, the shop was notified. TheWetOne is a fool, but I don't want him to die in a kayak on my watch. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The thing with dealers is that they seem to be afraid --- and I'm afraid they're correct in being afraid, in our lawsuit-conscious world --- that if they provide *any* advice, other than a recommendation to join a paddling club or read a book and become aware of what paddling's all about, that they'll be sued for missing something or providing incorrect advice. It's stupid, but I think there's something to that --- they don't carry the insurance they'd need to be instructors, so they feel the least bad thing they can do is to do nothing. And, unfortunately, for the sake of their ongoing business, they may be right. In the Baltimore-Washington-Annapolis area, the Chesapeake Paddler Association has a pretty good rapport with most of the major kayak retailers; they all keep and give out our flyers and applications, and, to the extent they can, they tout joining the CPA and directly support our work in outreach to the growing "newbie" population of sea kayakers. They "use" the CPA as the clearinghouse for valid kayaker info, missing that responsibility in the process, and we profit, as a club, from the support that they provide and the service they do for the newbies. It works. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good post Debs. Classic winter / novice tale. Shame the store didn't accept more responsibility. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debs, Good for you for handling the Wet One situation and for the follow through with the retailer. I once had an experience with a family who had purchased 2 Old Town Loons from a retailer here in California. Luckily the store had told them that they should take a class and the family did follow through on the advice. I am told by other retailers that their customers sometimes won't take a class with a new kayak even if the store gives it to them. They brought the loons to a protected flatwater lesson. We ran through the strokes including basic bracing. Hip snaps were difficult and there were no sprayskirts because the boats were doubles with one large cockpit, more like a canoe with a little bit of deck folded over on each end. We played around with each person taking a turn standing up in the kayak and really pushing the stability. Everyone was in wetsuits (because the water in this area is 55 degrees) and PFDs (because we always wear them) and we wanted to get wet in this lesson. Finally we went ahead and dumped one of the Loons in waist deep water to see what kind of rescues we could do. The kayak had been "guaranteed to float" I guess because of the foam core construction. Even though it would float by itself, it floated just below the surface of the water, neutrally buoyant, and dark green like the color of the deep cold bay. If any one of us put any body weight on it, it sank until we moved off of it and then it would come back up. We tried canoe rescues but found that the upper deck of these "kayaks" acted too much like buckets scooping about 50 gallons of water in one end. We tried kayak rescues like the T rescue, Paddle Float, and Side by Side but in every case the cavernous cockpit allowed too much water into the kayak to be able to maneuver it. If anyone has successfully rescued an Old Town Loon double from the water, please let me know the proper technique. The parents were very disappointed because they had intended to take these Old Town Loons out onto Monterey Bay eventually but after the lesson they realized how dangerous the kayaks would be in open water. I am glad that they took the lesson before they took the kayak out onto open water. They told me that the sales person had spent one and a half hours teaching them how to tie the kayaks onto their SUV. It makes me think that the salesperson would have spent more time on water safety issues if they had understood the risks themselves. I think the salesperson thought that the kayak did have the proper flotation from the materials that Old Town distributes. (What is "Positive Flotation" can anyone mention how high in the water column that means to them?) The family and I talked about float bags for the bow and stern but there is still going to be that enormous cockpit to deal with in the case of a capsize. Not all sales people are savvy paddlers. Not all marketing staff in kayak manufacturing companies are water people. It is up to us out here in the trenches to protect the sport we love through education. I am so tempted to end this here with one of those chain letter type lines like: "Pass this on to 20 of your friends right away for......." but I don't know exactly how a chain letter ends, I never read that far I guess. Anyway, thanks Debs for your helping out the paddling community. Thanks to all of you who are helping pass the word on water safety. Jan -----Original Message----- From: Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) <dreeves_at_lucent.com> To: 'paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net' <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 5:05 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal It's 3 a.m. and I give up on my sleeplessness caused by the incidents on 3/3. Here's what happened: It was a very windy day here, the perfect weather to do some test paddling for a potentially new camping kayak. I had been waiting patiently for some strong wind because all boats paddle good in nice weather, its only when the weather goes south that they start to stand apart. I took along jugs of water to simulate gear load, picked up a couple of boats at our local kayak store and drove the short distance to a large (salt water) river. As I am unloading the car of boats and gear in the parking lot, from behind me I hear a very soft, quivering voice say, "Can you help me?" I turn to see a young man, quite pale, dripping wet from head to toe, his clothes sagging with the weight of water trapped in cotton. I asked "Are you o.k.?" He said, "I took my new kayak out and it flipped over. Can you help me get it?" I asked him if he had any clothes to change into; he hesitated and then said "No, let's go get my boat." I made the assumption that the boat was on or near shore, and he had dumped while attempting to get out of the boat. When we got to the shoreline I see the boat floating upside down, keel just at the waterline (not above the waterline), way out in the river. The 15-20 mph winds were from the west, blowing it straight downriver toward the bay. So TheWetOne & I rush back to my car, I hurridly grab what I need, toss it in a boat and we carry down to the water. In the span of 1-1/2 minutes we were getting my boat, his boat has been blown another 150 ft downriver, but has now taken a turn for shore. Seeing this, I am quite relieved and decide it will be easier for me to wade/swim out and pull it in. As we get down to that area and I wade out, the water turns out to be quite shallow, never going over my thighs (water temp 44F). The first thing I do is clip on a bow line. Then I try to roll the boat over by grabbing the edges of the cockpit (I tried both from the upwind side and the downwind side-both to no avail). Failing that, I wrap the bow line around my body and try pulling it toward shore but cannot budge it. This struggle goes on for 3 or 4 minutes as I make little progress. Again I try rolling it over, this time trying to position my knees lower to give me more of a lift. Failure again. I look toward shore and the only person is TheWetOne, now shivering uncontrollably. I yelled that I couldn't get it any further in unless I had help flipping it over. He came jogging out yelping as each foot touched the water. We both grab the cockpit and are barely able to get it up. We keep going with this until the waters starts to flow out of the cockpit. At this point I tell TheWetOne to go get changed since I can manage it. Over the next 10 minutes I continue emptying the boat and pulling it toward shore. Very slow going. The boat is an Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible floatation. Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. Once his boat is up on the beach, I go back to the parking lot to find that his car is gone. I now make the assumption that he had no spare clothes in his car and had to go home to change. I am so angry, I am dizzy. Waiting for TheWetOne to return, I continue preparing for my test paddles. After loading the first boat, I get in to adjust the footpegs. There are none. What? I get out and look in the cockpit. Right. No footpegs. Great. Now I am really pissed. This was a designated "demo" boat and it has no footpegs. TheWetOne returns and asks if there is anything he give me or do for me. I said, "Yes. Join a club. You will learn a lot and be safer." I gave him our group brochure and told him that if he contacted the store, they could give him additional clubs info. As I help him load his stuff back in the car, I ask him some questions. Here are the answers. He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told anything about the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports experience. He was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he needed was a PFD. He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. Since it was a sunny day, he thought it would be perfect to go out and try fishing from his new, stable kayak. He did not realize that wind would have any effect on the craft. As he had gotten off-shore, he had quickly gotten into trouble, loosing control as the waves kept washing into the cockpit until it finally flipped him over. Fortunately, he had been wearing his PFD and was able to make it back to shore. After he leaves, I decide to go through with the test paddle even though it will be impossible for me to accurately access the boat in these conditions with no foot pegs. But it will let me blow out an awful lot of steam. After zig-zagging the waterway to simulate beam seas, following seas, etc., I head back to the put-in to try the other boat. Shifting the gear load to the new boat, I am dismayed to realize the it is missing the neoprene rear hatch cover (the lid was there but fit loosly). With anger returning, I head off shore and have a fun time in this boat zig-zagging around to see how it manages. At times I have trouble holding onto the paddle with gusts at 35-40 mph. With following seas, I am able to hold the boat totally on its side without my blade in the water. Now I'm feeling much better. I finish and load the car but dread going back to the store to let the store owner know what has taken place. Arriving back at the store, the "yard" guys are waiting to take the boats off the car and lock them up for the night and can go home. I let them know the problems with the demo boats and they apologize for not having checked the boats first. The owner is just leaving when I catch him. We sit down and I relay my afternoon's experience with him (omitting the problems with his demo boats). He is shocked, taken aback but at times becomes (in my opinion) a little defensive of their store practices and of the manufacturers. I suggest that because of shere sales volume and busyness (sp) of the store, perhaps it was difficult to depend on someone covering the basic safety info with new boat owners. Perhaps I could write something up as a 1 page flyer that could be handed to the customers with every boat purchase. I'm told that the manufacturer tapes safety info in every boat, besides, I am reminded, the store sells videos and books that cover all aspects of kayaking. I am told that new boat owners aren't interested in hearing safety tips; they are too focused on their new stuff and can't/won't listen to you. The owner states that he will communicate the event to the store staff in their next meeting. I never hear what will change in their selling process, but don't feel comfortable in pushing the issue. For the next 2 days I struggle with this. At the Paddlesport show at the end of March, probably 2,000-5,000 boats will be sold over a 3 day period, probably 65-70% of them being "recreational" kayaks. In discussing thoughts I've had to take proactive steps to reduce the number of incidents, everyone I talk to tells me to forget it. The manufacturers don't want it, the resellers don't want it, the consumer doesn't want it. I wonder, should our club continue to participate in the show - with such enormous amounts of obvious negligence? Right now my answer is a tentative yes; perhaps attendees visiting our table will hear some safety info, perhaps they will decide to join the group and read the informative articles in the newsletter, perhaps they will have the opportunity to attend a group trip and receive paddling tips. Perhaps. Discouraged in Sandy Hook, NJ Debbie Reeves *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, I would have predicted the store owner's response. Partly, he's probably right, that new owners of recreational boats aren't interested in the "safety stuff." Largely, though, I think he's worried about scaring them off if he pushes the potential dangers. One way of going about it is to convince him (that's a generic "him" - not just this store owner, but any and all) that they could sell some more merchandise - if they tell these new buyers that they need all of this additional equipment, they'll surely buy it. I don't know if that would be any more effective than trying to get them to present safety info, but it might be worth a shot. And yes, I think it's very important that the club be at Paddlesport. The safety message can be conveyed from a number of places - for Atlantic Sea Kayakers, from AnoRak, from Atlantic Kayak Tours. I think H2Outfitters also makes a similar pitch. So they won't hear it once, they'll hear it many times. Maybe it will sink in. Maybe. Still, the obligation is there. Joan (PS - why were you out testing boats in those kinds of winds by yourself???) On Sun, 5 Mar 2000 19:45:05 -0500 "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> writes: > It's 3 a.m. and I give up on my sleeplessness caused by the incidents > on > 3/3. Here's what happened: > > It was a very windy day here, the perfect weather to do some test > paddling > for a potentially new camping kayak. I had been waiting patiently > for some > strong wind because all boats paddle good in nice weather, its only > when the > weather goes south that they start to stand apart. I took along > jugs of > water to simulate gear load, picked up a couple of boats at our > local kayak > store and drove the short distance to a large (salt water) river. > As I am > unloading the car of boats and gear in the parking lot, from behind > me I > hear a very soft, quivering voice say, "Can you help me?" > > I turn to see a young man, quite pale, dripping wet from head to > toe, his > clothes sagging with the weight of water trapped in cotton. I asked > "Are > you o.k.?" He said, "I took my new kayak out and it flipped over. > Can you > help me get it?" I asked him if he had any clothes to change into; > he > hesitated and then said "No, let's go get my boat." > > I made the assumption that the boat was on or near shore, and he had > dumped > while attempting to get out of the boat. When we got to the > shoreline I see > the boat floating upside down, keel just at the waterline (not above > the > waterline), way out in the river. The 15-20 mph winds were from the > west, > blowing it straight downriver toward the bay. > > So TheWetOne & I rush back to my car, I hurridly grab what I need, > toss it > in a boat and we carry down to the water. In the span of 1-1/2 > minutes we > were getting my boat, his boat has been blown another 150 ft > downriver, but > has now taken a turn for shore. Seeing this, I am quite relieved > and decide > it will be easier for me to wade/swim out and pull it in. As we get > down to > that area and I wade out, the water turns out to be quite shallow, > never > going over my thighs (water temp 44F). > > The first thing I do is clip on a bow line. Then I try to roll the > boat > over by grabbing the edges of the cockpit (I tried both from the > upwind side > and the downwind side-both to no avail). Failing that, I wrap the > bow line > around my body and try pulling it toward shore but cannot budge it. > This > struggle goes on for 3 or 4 minutes as I make little progress. > Again I try > rolling it over, this time trying to position my knees lower to give > me more > of a lift. Failure again. I look toward shore and the only person > is > TheWetOne, now shivering uncontrollably. I yelled that I couldn't > get it > any further in unless I had help flipping it over. He came jogging > out > yelping as each foot touched the water. We both grab the cockpit > and are > barely able to get it up. We keep going with this until the waters > starts > to flow out of the cockpit. At this point I tell TheWetOne to go > get > changed since I can manage it. Over the next 10 minutes I continue > emptying > the boat and pulling it toward shore. Very slow going. The boat is > an > Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible floatation. > Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. > > Once his boat is up on the beach, I go back to the parking lot to > find that > his car is gone. I now make the assumption that he had no spare > clothes in > his car and had to go home to change. I am so angry, I am dizzy. > Waiting > for TheWetOne to return, I continue preparing for my test paddles. > After > loading the first boat, I get in to adjust the footpegs. There are > none. > What? I get out and look in the cockpit. Right. No footpegs. > Great. Now > I am really pissed. This was a designated "demo" boat and it has no > footpegs. > > TheWetOne returns and asks if there is anything he give me or do for > me. I > said, "Yes. Join a club. You will learn a lot and be safer." I > gave him > our group brochure and told him that if he contacted the store, they > could > give him additional clubs info. As I help him load his stuff back > in the > car, I ask him some questions. Here are the answers. > > He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told > anything about > the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports > experience. He > was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he needed > was a PFD. > He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. > Since it > was a sunny day, he thought it would be perfect to go out and try > fishing > from his new, stable kayak. He did not realize that wind would have > any > effect on the craft. As he had gotten off-shore, he had quickly > gotten into > trouble, loosing control as the waves kept washing into the cockpit > until it > finally flipped him over. Fortunately, he had been wearing his PFD > and was > able to make it back to shore. > > After he leaves, I decide to go through with the test paddle even > though it > will be impossible for me to accurately access the boat in these > conditions > with no foot pegs. But it will let me blow out an awful lot of > steam. > After zig-zagging the waterway to simulate beam seas, following > seas, etc., > I head back to the put-in to try the other boat. Shifting the gear > load to > the new boat, I am dismayed to realize the it is missing the > neoprene rear > hatch cover (the lid was there but fit loosly). With anger > returning, I > head off shore and have a fun time in this boat zig-zagging around > to see > how it manages. At times I have trouble holding onto the paddle > with gusts > at 35-40 mph. With following seas, I am able to hold the boat > totally on > its side without my blade in the water. Now I'm feeling much > better. I > finish and load the car but dread going back to the store to let the > store > owner know what has taken place. > > Arriving back at the store, the "yard" guys are waiting to take the > boats > off the car and lock them up for the night and can go home. I let > them know > the problems with the demo boats and they apologize for not having > checked > the boats first. > > The owner is just leaving when I catch him. We sit down and I relay > my > afternoon's experience with him (omitting the problems with his demo > boats). > He is shocked, taken aback but at times becomes (in my opinion) a > little > defensive of their store practices and of the manufacturers. I > suggest that > because of shere sales volume and busyness (sp) of the store, > perhaps it > was difficult to depend on someone covering the basic safety info > with new > boat owners. Perhaps I could write something up as a 1 page flyer > that > could be handed to the customers with every boat purchase. I'm told > that > the manufacturer tapes safety info in every boat, besides, I am > reminded, > the store sells videos and books that cover all aspects of kayaking. > I am > told that new boat owners aren't interested in hearing safety tips; > they are > too focused on their new stuff and can't/won't listen to you. The > owner > states that he will communicate the event to the store staff in > their next > meeting. I never hear what will change in their selling process, > but don't > feel comfortable in pushing the issue. > > For the next 2 days I struggle with this. At the Paddlesport show > at the > end of March, probably 2,000-5,000 boats will be sold over a 3 day > period, > probably 65-70% of them being "recreational" kayaks. In discussing > thoughts > I've had to take proactive steps to reduce the number of incidents, > everyone > I talk to tells me to forget it. The manufacturers don't want it, > the > resellers don't want it, the consumer doesn't want it. I wonder, > should our > club continue to participate in the show - with such enormous > amounts of > obvious negligence? Right now my answer is a tentative yes; perhaps > attendees visiting our table will hear some safety info, perhaps > they will > decide to join the group and read the informative articles in the > newsletter, perhaps they will have the opportunity to attend a group > trip > and receive paddling tips. Perhaps. > > Discouraged in Sandy Hook, NJ > Debbie Reeves > > > > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! 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>The thing with dealers is that they seem to be afraid --- and I'm afraid they're correct in being afraid, in our lawsuit-conscious world --- that if they provide *any* advice, other than a recommendation to join a paddling club or read a book and become aware of what paddling's all about, that they'll be sued for missing something or providing incorrect advice A couple of years ago I was talking with the proprietor of a tube rental on a popular river in another state. I noticed a father and son picking up tubes and equipment for the river. There was a sign right there with information and requirements, including one stating that no child under the age of 10 would be allowed to rent or use a tube. I mentioned to the proprietor that the boy seemed to be about 8 years old. He said that the father said he was 10 but he didn't believe it either. So I asked why he was still permitted to go. He replied that he had to take the father's word for it. Should he question it, in that state it would be an instance of "taking an interest in the welfare of a client". That alone would triple his insurance premium, and that would put him out of business. So he had little choice. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am not really one to post "me-too" posts, but Jed Luby said it better than I tried to. I didn't try to come off as advocating punishment for anybody (TheStore or TheWetOne) in that situation, but Debbie's post made it clear that something is wrong and something needs to change. Thanks Jed for taking the words out of my mouth (and making them more intelligible!!) Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry - I see how what I said was misleading. I did not ask him to come out to help. I was telling him that I could not get it in and I would have to find some other help. I did not expect him to come out. On the other hand, when he did come out, I didn't stop him. Perhaps that is just as bad. Debs > ---------- > From: Larry Bliven[SMTP:foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net] > > >I look toward shore and the only person is > > TheWetOne, now shivering uncontrollably. I yelled that I couldn't get > it > > any further in unless I had help flipping it over. He came jogging out > > yelping as each foot touched the water > > Excuse me, > is it common practice to ask someone who is *shivering uncontrollably* to > go > back into cold water to retrieve a kayak? > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Exactly what does "built-in floatation" mean. I had always thought that statement meant that the boat gunnels would be above the surface. It does not. The boat was floating, but it was submerged. Let me reemphasize, it did not sink to the bottom, it floated just below the surface. Personally, I consider that misleading, but I am sure the manufacturer does not. It boils down to interruptation. One possible (cheap) solution would be to add 4 tie-downs in the bow and stern to tie in float bags. But how do we (the user segment) get them (the manufacturers)to do that? Debs > ---------- Bruce wrote: > WE SHOULD DEMAND THIS FROM ALL MANUFACTURERS. It's a start. > I visited the Old Town Website, if the model was correct "Loon," then > it > does have positive flotation. See > http://www.otccanoe.com/const_polylink.html > according to the manufacturer. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > Exactly what does "built-in floatation" mean. I had always thought that > statement meant that the boat gunnels would be above the surface. It does > not. The boat was floating, but it was submerged. Let me reemphasize, it > did not sink to the bottom, it floated just below the surface. Personally, > I consider that misleading, but I am sure the manufacturer does not. It > boils down to interruptation. One possible (cheap) solution would be to add > 4 tie-downs in the bow and stern to tie in float bags. But how do we (the > user segment) get them (the manufacturers)to do that? > > Debs To my knowledge the term means that the boat won't sink to Davey Jones Locker, i.e. it will float in some retrievable fashion at the surface, more or less. It doesn't mean that it will float with freeboard if the average weight number of paddlers (single or double) are sitting in it. So, while it is a correct statement it is misleading in that people can easily make the assumption that it will float fully flooded with them in it and still be usable or be able to be pumped. It can't. Cockpits will be submerged so part or all of the coaming will be underwater and therefore no amount of pumping could empty it. All you have to do to establish just how effective built-in flotation is is just to look at the boat. If the flotation is just thicker walls on the perimeter of the boat that is filled with something bouyant, you can see that it would not be sufficient to create freeboard were the boat to be filled with water. I have been known to get pretty worked up on this regarding folding kayaks, none of which will float with sufficient freeboard for emptying out if the paddlers rely on the built in sponsons alone. I also clearly stated this in my book, and to underline this, I included a photo of a couple (who were Twiggy and Woody Allen size) in a double Klepper with just the sponsons inflated and no flotation bags (page 104). Their boat had half the cockpit submerged and would have been impossible to empty with them in it. On second thought, perhaps I should have used Jackie Gleason size paddlers as they would have displaced more water and of less weight than the water they replaced; and therefore provide some more bouyancy :-) But that is counter-intuitive and so thinner people looked better to illustrate the point. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The thing with dealers is that they seem to be afraid --- and I'm afraid >they're correct in being afraid, in our lawsuit-conscious world --- that if >they provide *any* advice, other than a recommendation to join a paddling >club or read a book and become aware of what paddling's all about, that >they'll be sued for missing something or providing incorrect advice. It's >stupid, but I think there's something to that --- they don't carry the >insurance they'd need to be instructors, so they feel the least bad thing >they can do is to do nothing. And, unfortunately, for the sake of their >ongoing business, they may be right. SNIP >Jack Martin Jack has put his finger on a really important issue. I work for a major outdoor retailer (thought I stress I'm on PaddleWise as a "civilian" and I am in no way a spokesgeek for my employer). We have to do a major balancing act on the retail floor and in our catalogue, since we need to explain what the benefits of an item are (i.e. why you might want to buy it). This of course, usually entails explaining what the item does. The tricky part is explaining what it does without crossing the line into offering instruction in to how to do the activity itself, which has major legal implications! A couple of other factors enter into the equation as well: As noted, some customers think that when you suggest they get the paddlefloat, wetsuit, PFD, and so on to go with their kayak, that you're doing the car salesman thing of starting out with a cheap base price, and adding on the whitewalls, the power steering, the air-conditioning, etc (though buying a kayak without proper floatation is more like buying a car without brakes than one without whitewalls). As it happens our staff are not on commission, but not all our customers are aware of that, so I can't blame them for wondering about a possible conflict of interest. I think the same suspicion might enter a newbie's mind if the retailer happens to offer both products and instruction. The retailer might be suggesting courses out of a genuine concern for the beginner's safety and to get them off on the right foot in a sport the retailer loves (and I believe most smaller retailers do what they do out of a real passion for the sport - there are certainly easier ways to just make money if that was your goal). However the newbie may see the course suggestions as just more add-ons and upsells. A second interesting factor can be ego: In the course of a conversation with a customer about a piece of gear, it may become very apparent that the person has little idea what they're doing. Try suggesting a course to them, particularly if they've brought their buddy, girlfriend, or boyfriend along so they can show off their mastery, and they can be deeply angered and embarrassed. (I've trying pitching the idea that the two of them would learn faster if they both took the same courses, but separately!) On a few occasions, we have actually declined to sell climbing gear to people when it was clear they would be a danger to themselves and their partners (these were folks with absolutely no climbing experience, except perhaps having watched "Cliff-hanger" sixteen times, who were determined to just go out and do it without instruction). It was astonishing how abusive these folks were that we were concerned for their lives! Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Exactly what does "built-in floatation" mean...... >The boat was floating, but it was submerged. Let me reemphasize, it >did not sink to the bottom, it floated just below the surface. Personally, >I consider that misleading, but I am sure the manufacturer does not. It >boils down to interruptation. >Debs I seem to recall that USCG regs require that such boats "float", i.e. must have positive buoyancy. It seems to mean that it doesn't sink to the bottom. My Solo-14 open canoe floats at gunwale level by itself but if I'm in it...... That kayak was in salt water, which is denser. Wonder what would have happened in fresh water? Tie points are important, too. On the Lehigh last year, two people were in their (I think) OT Loons and both flipped over a steep rock and hole. Both had flotation bags installed but they were loose. The bags floated out, pushing everything else in the boat ahead of them..... Then the water current over the rock got into the cockpit of one boat, pushing the boat to the bottom and holding it there. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Deb, you got the list rocking! But...the WetOne _did_ make it to shore; he did not paddle off into the middle distance; he did not head out into some huge gale on some vast maritime body of water; and he did not require official outside assistance to drag his sorry ass to safety. Yes, he would have lost his boat (if not for your kind assistance). I've done that before, but I've always been a manageable distance from shore. Shivering ucontrollably? This is good. As long as he was still shivering, he's got lots of spunk left. And as I recall, he was the one insisting someone recover his loony-yak. Dripping wet and cold? Love it! Now, if we could just set up all kayak retail stores near the cold water, send prospective buyers offshore a few meters, then play virtual-ocean and dump them over, well, bet that would convince them to take a course or two. Just my two Canuck-land pennies. PS Love the preponderance you indicated toward paddling in the rough. You are a gem amongst the multitude of fairy tale paddlers out there. Thanks again for the hairy tale. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (the not-so DryOne himself) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Thanks Deb, you got the list rocking! > > But...the WetOne _did_ make it to shore; he did not paddle off into the > middle distance; he did not head out into some huge gale on some vast > maritime body of water; and he did not require official outside assistance > to drag his sorry ass to safety. Yes, he would have lost his boat (if not > for your kind assistance). I've done that before, but I've always been a > manageable distance from shore. Shivering ucontrollably? This is good. As > long as he was still shivering, he's got lots of spunk left. And as I > recall, he was the one insisting someone recover his loony-yak. Dripping > wet and cold? Love it! Now, if we could just set up all kayak retail stores > near the cold water, send prospective buyers offshore a few meters, then > play virtual-ocean and dump them over, well, bet that would convince them > to take a course or two. Just my two Canuck-land pennies. I think you are trolling. But you should use loonies instead. They make better bait. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Wall Street Journal had a section called "Encore: A Guide to Life after 55" that was sent out for March 6th, 2000. I hope they sent this to all of their subscribers because I'm not 55 or anywhere close to it! But I also got something today about Life Care and AARP is always sending me junk as well. Do they know something I don't? 8-) But I degress... The end of the paper has a large article on kayaking and the over 50 set. There are some interesting comments that apply to our safety discussion. The article was written by a writer in Massachusetts and seemed to focus on the Cape Code area. I'm going to quote some statements and paraphrase other pieces of information. ----------------------------------------------------------- The Cape's largest dealer sold 1,000 kayaks last year. In 1990 they could not give one away. Two thirds of the buyers are over the age of 55. A 71 year old paddle was turned off kayaking by the "macho" image of the Capes origional kayakers. "When I first go interested, I bought a book to read about it that scared me right off, because everything was aobut saving your life when you capsize." The article goes on to say, "Indeed, various trade magazines offer no encouragement, often stressing sea rescue techniques. And some of the columnists express downright disdain for neophytes who venture forth without a mastery off all arcane paddle skills." The article then defines white water kayaks, "serious" boats, and then recreational kayaking. "Serious" kayaks are the "16 to 19 foot splinter of a boat less than two feet wide like the ones used by native Aleutian Islanders or Greenlanders." Recreational kayaking or "sometimes flat-water kayaking, is far less challenging. A lot of paddlers with sea kayaks, in fact, actually engage more in flatwater trips than in ocean excursions, but an acutal recreational boat is shorter(about nine to 14 feet in length), wider (and therefore less tippy) and has a much more comfortable cockpit than its spartan cousins." The ACA says that in 1997 that recreational kayaks made up 27% of sales followed by the sea kayaks at 14%, white water boats with 13% and finally canoes at 8%. (That sure does not add up to 100 but that is what the paper said.) Mr. Murley is a naturalist for the Massachusetts Audubon Society and has led canoe and kayak trips for 15 years. "Almost everyone is worried about what they'll do if they tip over in deep water. The experts say kayakers should all learn the Eskimo roll, but it's one thing to learn how to do a roll in a swimming pool and another thing to do it in wind and waves, notes Mr. Murley. All paddlers should wear life vests, of course if the worst does happen, Mr. Murley advises that the best thing to do is 'swim for shallow water where you can stand up' and walk to shore. Most places on the Cape the water is so shallow that getting your feet on the bottom is no problem." "'My philosophy is that the best paddling environment is close to shore and getting into areas you have never seen before. Going way out into the ocean where you can't see anything is boring,'" says Mr. Murley. For winter kayaking his advice is to stay so close to the shore that you can scramble out of the water before you feel the cold." The last paragraph in the article after discussing the fear of adult children worrying about their parents is about winter paddling. "Indeed, enthusiasts are reluctant to stop kayaking even during the winter months. Whenever the weather is sunny and the wind is down, they are off and paddling. Ms. Dobson says you should always have a companion for safe winter kayaking, but she says, 'the experience is magical. I was out on Long Pond in Harwich when it was skimmed over by a thin layer of ice. It broke just like china when I paddled through it, and it sounded like chimes.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ First of all remember that we don't know what else was said by the people interviewed and what was not published. There where three pictures in the article. One was of a man building a boat. Another was of a women who was paddling in the summer who was wearing a PFD and a spray skirt. There was not visible extra paddle, paddle float or pump. The third picure was taken in winter or early spring. There are two paddlers. The man in the foreground is wearing a light jacket apparently over his PFD. He also appears to have a tow rope but it is hard to see if he has other equipment because of the croping of the photo. He does not have a sprayskirt. The man in the background has on a PFD over a jacket. He does have a sprayskirt. The man in the foreground is wearing a ball cap. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/9/00 2:24:17 AM, wildoats_at_ionet.net writes: << What have I missed? >> ....telling us where you are so we can support your efforts by supporting your store. It is refreshing to hear someone from the industry accept that they not only have an opportunity to help but that they feel a moral obligation to do so. You are certainly someone with whom I would want to do business. Thank you for your comments and your efforts. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
| Provide a water briefing. Knowing the tides, currents and water temperatures |expected along the planned route helps, everything from being dressed properly to |decreasing the work factor and using conditions to advantage rather than fighting |them. I think you have this covered in the paragraph, but STRESS how deadly cold water can be. Inform the paddler on how quickly they will lose the dexterity in their hands. Warn them about the dangers of warm air and cold water. 6-8 weeks ago we had 24 inches of snow on the ground here in central North Carolina with ice on the lakes. We have been in the 60-70's and today we might hit 85. That water is still cold. Two weeks after the snow and ice I saw people in small sailing boats out on the lakes. They did not appear to have on PFDs much less cold water gear. There was one kayaker who at least had on a PFD. May have had on other gear but the boat was too far away to tell. Remind them to take water. I know that sounds really simple but I have seen people on a 6.5 mile hike with children aged from 4-8 in 90+ degree weather with nothing more than a couple of soda cans in hand. I have seen this happen in varing degrees over and over. I have talked to other people who have witnessed the same thing. Some people in our society are very far removed from the realities of nature. Hope this helps.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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