I flexed my VCP hatch while looking at the back (inside) and discovered several deep cracks. I was surprised since I thought the deterioration wound show up first on the exposed outside.. The outside looked good. I now have a new hatch cover. My oval rear hatch is ok. The boat is eight years old, and I have been using 303 protectant on the outside of the hatches. Might be worth a look as a failure in rough conditions could be serious. frank montbriand 43N50'07" 73W25'22" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I recently lost a hatch cover for my Romany and bought a replacement. The new cover seemed to be made of a stiffer rubber than the old ones. I treated it with 303, as I do with all hatch covers and drysuit gaskets. After only a few weeks, several cracks appeared in the hatch cover, on the underside of the rim. I took it back to the store (Pacific Water Sports, SeaTac). They took it back, found a more rubbery feeling one in stock, and gave me that. So far so good. I've had the new cover for about 2 weeks and no cracks. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have had two VCP hatches develop serious cracks within the 3 years I have had my boat. One way the 7.5" round front hatch. It developed cracks on the inside in the groove that slipped over the top lip of the hatch. The other one was the large oval rear hatch. It developed cracks on the outside and inside in the middle. I found them when I flexed the cover slightly. None of them seemed to have gone all the way through. I replaced both hatches. I keep 303 on them, but they do so a sun since I sometimes leave the boat on the car when I am paddling for several days in a row. Two hatches in 3 years seems a little excessive to me especially since that is over $100 to replace the pair. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From Mark Arnold Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] VCP Hatch Deterioration > I have had two VCP hatches develop serious cracks within the 3 years I have > had my boat. One way the 7.5" round front hatch. i found cracks on my VCP hatches this past weekend, like those described by Frank ... my boat is only 3 yrs old and it is stored out of the sun when not in use. so if several of us are having this experience, is it (a) normal or (b) a not so great batch of rubber? i know a retired chemist who worked in latex compounding, he had lots of problems with folks not following proceedures for mixing materials and also lots of problems with less than proper quality of latex. in fact, he rejected a boat load of latex that arrived on the east coast of the US from the far east... the material was not the quality he had been shown.. yes he's still alive. lets hear from folks who have VCP hatches that have out lived 3 yrs... or is it normal to replace them after 3yrs? if so, someone needs to bring out another product. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Larry Bliven [mailto:foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net] > > lets hear from folks who have VCP hatches that have out lived 3 yrs... > or is it normal to replace them after 3yrs? > if so, someone needs to bring out another product. > Both of my VCP hatches started cracking at about two years of age. I use 303 regularly on them and always store them inside. They're now about 3.5 yrs old and the cracking is just starting to get to the point where I'm beginning to think that it's structural as opposed to cosmetic. Time for new hatch covers..... The part that really burns me up is the ridiculous pricing of these things... Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Frank wrote > I flexed my VCP hatch while looking at the back (inside) and discovered > several deep cracks. I was surprised since I thought the deterioration > wound > show up first on the exposed outside.. The outside looked good. I now have > a > new hatch cover. My oval rear hatch is ok. The boat is eight years old, > and > I have been using 303 protectant on the outside of the hatches. Might be > worth a look as a failure in rough conditions could be serious. > I also have cracks on the inside of the VCP hatches on one of my kayaks and nothing noticeable on the outside. The kayak is about 5 years old it is stored under the verandah when not in use and I haven't been coating the hatches with anything. I didn't put any cover over the kayak when on trips and it would often spend hours sitting on a beach in the hot Australian sun. One of my fellow paddlers has been using Armourall and claims no deterioration at all over the same amout of time. I had one unfortunate incident with VCP hatches several years ago. I spent all weekend cutting out the existing small screw in hatches and replaced them with two VCP hatches. On my first trip with the new hatches I got into a spot of bother and broke the kayak into 3 separate pieces in 2.5 metre seas. They sure didn't keep the water out then. David Canberra, Australia > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Whyte, David wrote: > > Frank wrote > > I flexed my VCP hatch while looking at the back (inside) and discovered > > several deep cracks. I was surprised since I thought the deterioration > > wound > > show up first on the exposed outside.. The outside looked good. I now have > > a > > new hatch cover. My oval rear hatch is ok. The boat is eight years old, > > and > > I have been using 303 protectant on the outside of the hatches. Might be > > worth a look as a failure in rough conditions could be serious. > > > > I also have cracks on the inside of the VCP hatches on one of my > kayaks and nothing noticeable on the outside. The kayak is about 5 years old Has anyone asked Valley about this phenomenon? It sounds like possibly a bad batch of material after some change in suppliers. If indeed a replacement cost $100 as some one said (one? a pair?) then that should be addressed. In the meantime, I am wondering if paddlers with fancy VCP hatches might invest in pasties to cover them up when on land. A good choice might be plastic shower caps that have elastic hems. I suggest a better quality than the kind given away free in hotels. Pastel pink or lavender colors are supposed to be quite UV resistant. Ones with lace flowers glued on them are even better as the lace flower petals create a broken series of focal planes that difuse the sun rays rendering them essentially harmless to the VCP hatch material. The hatch cover pasties might work on the water if you beef up the elastic hems to keep them on. As well as being practical, those floral shower caps will tone down the macho-heavy look of Brit boats and gain them wider acceptance. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:38:17 +1000, Whyte, David wrote: >... I got into a spot of bother and broke the kayak into 3 separate > pieces... "...a spot of bother..." A lovely turn of phrase, with a hint of Aussie understatement. :-) Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/26/00 3:08:12 PM, MJAkayaker_at_aol.com writes: << Two hatches in 3 years seems a little excessive to me especially since that is over $100 to replace the pair. >> Did you contact the manufacturer? I'd think they might have something to say because they buy these thing from their venders. If they know the life of a particular batch is short they might be able to help replace them for you from the vender. Now I have to go look at mine again! Why have I had the 303 on the front table for 2 weeks? We haven't seen the sun for days here. I guess it was to remind me that the sun does come out once in a while and 303 is a good idea. Joan Spinner * * * Paddling on the Chesapeake Bay watershed-a red, CD Breeze and a yellow/white CD Gulfstream *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/26/00 9:22:40 PM Central Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << If indeed a replacement cost $100 as some one said (one? a pair?) then that should be addressed. >> Great River Outfitters prices from 1999 catalogue are 7.5 round hatch cover -- 26.30 (typically this is a front hatch) 16 x 9 oval cover -- 52.00 (typically a rear hatch) The 2000 prices were just a little higher I think, but I loaned my catalogue out so I can not be sure. By the time you add in shipping and/or taxes I think you are around $90. I guess if you have the money and the forethought to order a pair when the first one fails you could save a little on shipping. I did not talk to Valley. When I first brought this up a few months ago the only replies I got were things like you should take hatches off and use 303. So I thought it was just a chance happening. I had been using 303 but not taking the hatches off every day. Since I have now had the second one crack and there seems to be a similar problem with others I will be calling. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I too have had VCP rubber hatches deteriorate. The (VCP supplied) rubber hatches on two new P&H capellas were very perished and split under the rim on the inside after about eight months. P&H replaced the hatches immediately and without charge. The replacement hatches are now four years old and are still in pristine condition. I presume that the first were indeed form a 'bad batch'. I suspect that 303 on the outside is irrelevant, as all cases reported have been perished on the inside - maybe its something to do with the way the mould is designed. The prices you guys are quoting for replacements are outrageous. Here in the UK a Valley round hatch complete (cover and rim etc) comes in at about 12 pounds sterling. I would check out the online shop at Knoydart kayaking who sell internationally: www.knoydart-kayaking.co.uk round hatch cover alone is quoted at £3-89 (sterling so I guess about 3 US dollars + shipping) on the web site .... at 50 cents a year I'd say that's cheap enough to replace every three or four years... HTH Cheers Colin 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shouldn't that be "spot o' bover"? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
To whom it may concern, I just talked with Great River Outfitters (I got my replacement VCP hatch covers from them) about life expectancy for the covers. They said I should expect 1 to 2 years. Maybe a little more if I was real careful about storage out of the sun. I was a little surprised, but since they deal with a ton of Valley kayaks I would consider them a good authority. I guess my budget needs to be adjusted to allow for replacements. First gas prices double and now I have to replace hatch covers regularly. That $1.69 flowered shower cap over-cover idea is sounding better by the minute. Maybe I could get white shower caps and paint Inuit pictographs on them. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The cracks on my new hatch cover appeared after only two weeks or so, so I think there was something wrong with the material it was made from; it wasn't caused by age or exposure to uv. BTW, my cracks were across the bottom of the rim, in a radial direction, not in a circumferential direction, as was the case with some of the posts. Imagine you have flipped the cover upside down and drawn a radius from the center out to the edge. Where that line crosses the rim was where each crack was. Jack Fu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wonder what it is about the hatches that makes them so vulnerable to damage. I have lots of rubber on my folding kayaks (hypalon) and you never see anything like what happens to those Valley hatches. The hulls don't start cracking for 20 or 25 years. In older Kleppers you do see more premature cracking at the end caps, narrow protective strips at the bow and stern, but generally that did not happen for at least a dozen years (my boat, 12 years old, has not a crack in it). It could be several things: composition of the material. Perhaps the rubber they are using isn't up to that kind of exposure. positioning. Hatches are flat and therefore are sticking up there to catch all the sun's rays without mercy. function. The hatches need to have a bit of stretch in them, I believe. I am confused because I have seen two types of hatches (remember I am not in hardshells so I am working as an observer not a practicioner). One just basically a cap that fits over the hatch hole rim and is held by a built in flange in the hatch itself. Another kind is a cap but with a flexible steel flange that has a latch on it, looking somewhat like how the closures on ski boots. My question is are the hatches that are show limited life ones without the flexible steel closures or is it happening also to ones with the steel closures. Again, I am not up on hatches for hardshells and who makes them and how they are supposed to function and close the hatch hole. Just another word. Feathercrafts have hatches too. I don't want to get into how they close but the top part is made of cordura nylon with a bungee and cord lock tightener (actually two). It was actually what I was thinking of when I kidded about using shower caps. I think it would be fairly easy to rig up something like the Feathercraft hatch cover and place it over the Valley one, which would provide the true seal. Next time you are around a Feathercraft or see one at a show, take a look at that hatch cap. It may provide enough cover to protect the rubber in the Valley hatch. ralph MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > > I just talked with Great River Outfitters (I got my replacement VCP hatch > covers from them) about life expectancy for the covers. They said I should > expect 1 to 2 years. Maybe a little more if I was real careful about storage > out of the sun. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote, "That $1.69 flowered shower cap over-cover idea is sounding better by the minute. Maybe I could get white shower caps and paint Inuit pictographs on them." Y'know, there is a real option. Palm (and others) make neoprene hatch covers for VCP hatches which are designed to be carried for emergencies. (Wouldn't try a polar circumnavigation with them, but they're pretty sturdy and tend to stay on adequately.) For storage or transport (tether them!), these little neoprene "frisbies" tend to be good replacements for the standard hatch. They're not rocket science, either. Even Shawn could probably make one --- just discs of neoprene, sized appropriately, with a ring of bungie cord sewn into the edge. (Still well beyond my capabilty, however.) A thought, especially with Stan saying these things could go in a year or two! (Makes me wonder why mine are so good after nine years! Gotta paddle more!) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
These hatch covers make great shower caps! >>>Palm (and others) make neoprene hatch covers for VCP hatches which are designed to be carried for emergencies. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/29/00 6:37:35 AM Central Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << One just basically a cap that fits over the hatch hole rim and is held by a built in flange in the hatch itself. Another kind is a cap but with a flexible steel flange that has a latch on it, looking somewhat like how the closures on ski boots. >> Ralph, mine does not have a steel band on it. At one of the symposiums I asked about that since I saw some with bands. I was told that the design was actually the same for both covers. The main holding mechanism is the small flange on the hatch and the mating groove in the cover. The latching bands were supposedly used on the older hatches, but people found out that the covers stayed on fine without them. Gradually for convenience the bands were dropped. I have the same wide "band goove" on the outside of the cover that the old covers with the locking band have. Can't vouch for the accuracy of this, but it was what I was told. >>I wonder what it is about the hatches that makes them so vulnerable to damage. I have lots of rubber on my folding kayaks (hypalon) and you never see anything like what happens to those Valley hatches.<< One difference I noticed between the VCP covers and the Kajak Sport covers (which fit over the hatch rims similarly to VCP) is the stiffness of the cover. The VCP covers are quite thick and stiff. When you put them on they do not stretch out the same way a sprayskirt strechtes. They just deform enough to pop over the flange. The Kajak Sport covers are much thinner and more strechy. You kind of pull and strech the whole cover more like puttting on a spray skirt. Several of us had cracks on the underside of the cover. Some of the underside cracks on mine eventually went through to the outside. Since these started on the underside, I do not think this is strictly a sun problem. I think it might have to do with something similar to a fatigue fracture cause by the repeated stress of flexing the cover to remove/replace it. If a part has to flex in order to work, sometimes thicker and stiffer is not the better choice for the material. If this is the case "years of life" may not be the best measurement. Perhaps it should be "off/on cylces". I know that I am really bad about forgetting things and/or rearranging stuff so that I may put on and take off the hatch 3 to 4 times at the beginning of each paddle and 2 or 3 times at lunch breaks. One of the problems with speculating on causes is that there could be multiple problems (poor material, outside environmental such as sun and ozone exposure, nicks from burrs on the hatch, improper manufacture, etc). My major concern was the thought that I was doing something that was really speeding up the cracking. I wanted to know how the life cycle for my covers compared with others. Although some people have gotten much longer life, evidentally I am getting about what I should expect. I am going to try to work on reducing the "on/off" cylces and sun exposure on my new covers in hopes that I can make them last a little longer. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Again, I hope nobody minds my questions and guesses regarding this issue. I don't have hatches such as described. All I am doing is trying to apply some logic to this from other fields. > << One just basically a cap that fits over the hatch hole rim and is held > by a built in flange in the hatch itself. Another kind is a cap but > with a flexible steel flange that has a latch on it, looking somewhat > like how the closures on ski boots. >> > > Ralph, mine does not have a steel band on it. At one of the symposiums I > asked about that since I saw some with bands. I was told that the design was > actually the same for both covers. The main holding mechanism is the small > flange on the hatch and the mating groove in the cover. The latching bands > were supposedly used on the older hatches, but people found out that the > covers stayed on fine without them. Gradually for convenience the bands were > dropped. The reason I asked about the steel band was really just wondering whether the hatches were of two kinds: one that had to be stretched over the hatch opening; and one in which the cover went on pretty easily and the steel band provided the seal. I.e. I was looking to see if stretch was critical and what that might do. From what you heard there is no difference in the hatch configuration itself, just whether it has a steel band or not. > One difference I noticed between the VCP covers and the Kajak Sport covers > (which fit over the hatch rims similarly to VCP) is the stiffness of the > cover. The VCP covers are quite thick and stiff. When you put them on they > do not stretch out the same way a sprayskirt strechtes. They just deform > enough to pop over the flange. The Kajak Sport covers are much thinner and > more strechy. You kind of pull and strech the whole cover more like puttting > on a spray skirt. Perhaps you have come up with the possible problem, i.e. the non-stretchiness of the Valley hatch and the way it has to be warped or bent to fit on. A non-flexible material that is subject to such forces can crack over time. Example, take a thin flexible sheet of plastic and flex or warp it constantly (without crimping or actually doubling it over). That sheet can flex forever. Take a sheet of plastic that is of greater thickness that won't let you flex it readily. Keep torsioning it and before too long it will start developing cracks. The same happens with thin cardboard in comparison with thicker cardboard, say the thin cardboard that is in back of a pad of paper versus the thicker cardboard in posterboard. Anyway, this is just a thought as to why. Maybe Valley should make the hatches more flexible or make it of a truer-to-size fit and return to the era of the steel band (I keep thinking calypso when I use the term :-)) to keep it on. BTW, does any of the literature with the boats that have VCP hatches warn you to regularly check the condition of the hatch for possible deterioration or state that the life expectancy of a hatch is x years? ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now a question from me. I have noticed that even Valley is now using Kajak Sport hatch covers on their boats. Has anyone had a problem with Kajak Sport hatch covers? As the owner of a new Kajak Sport Viviane I would like to hear of it. Mike, who will soon be posting the Viviane's maiden voyage trip report. -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I checked both sets of hatches, one from a 95 Nordkapp and the other 98. Since I store all the hatches off the boats, I don't know which is which but of the 5 9" and 2 ovals, only one 9" exhibited the cracks mentioned in this thread. The hatches are stored indoors but used once or twice weekly in the mid-day Florida sun. I wonder if anyone has tries an adhesive in the cracks that might and extend the life of the hatch? cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd like to add one more wrinkle to the hatch deterioration issue. A few years ago, I was involved in determining the cause of failure of a structure we made out of a combination of Kevlar and Mylar. I was introduced to a failure mode known as "stress rupture". Essentially this occurs when you load a component near but not at its strength limit for some time. Let me illustrate with some MADE-UP NUMBERS. For a particular material, if you stress it to 100% of its strength, it will fail immediately. If you load it to 95% of its strength, it will fail in 3 months. If you load it to 80% of its strength, it will fail in one year. 60%, 5 years. 50%, never. The bottom line here is that some materials (mostly organic, I think) will fail at some stress level over time that is less than their rated strength. It seems to me that VCP hatch covers are being continually stressed while on since they are stretched over their mating part. Is it possible that VCP hatch covers then can experience earlier failures when then are continually left stressed (stretched)? Of course, if this effect contributes to the hatch cover failure, it would be in addition to the previously mentioned effects of UV radiation, ozone and/or other chemicals. My 2 cents.... Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps this discussion is being unfair. Afterall, it may be expecting to much of our British friends. Back in the early 1960s, I owned an MG 1100. It was one of the first of the front wheel drive cars with a tranverse mounted engine. The thing needed to operate at very high RPMs to get anywhere and, with all the vibration at such speeds, just about every bolt would work itself loose and need regular weekly re-tightening. I finally traded the car in on a Volkswagen squareback. As I was looking over the Volkswagen, my then 3 year old son dropped to the floor and immediately crawled under the engine area with his knees out. The salesman who was offering me top dollar on my tradein exclaimed, "Isn't that cute! He is imitating his daddy." It didn't dawn on the guy that was the way my son saw me 50 per cent of my weekends, i.e. with my feet sticking out from under the car...the car was a lovable but high maintenance lemon! Maybe that is the price of owning a Brit boat or other product. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz writes: > Perhaps this discussion is being unfair. Afterall, it may be expecting > to much of our British friends. > > <snip> the car was a lovable but high maintenance lemon! > > Maybe that is the price of owning a Brit boat or other product. Watch closely as Ralph demonstrates the North American Kayakers Trolling technique ;} See the bait thrown into the water, its a good line - perhaps a little strong, but you need a strong line to bring up the elusive flaming brit fish. Now, stand back quietly and see if there's a bite.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralp D wrote > Perhaps this discussion is being unfair. Afterall, it may be expecting > to much of our British friends. [snip stuff about MG's and VW's. . . and how the former were, well, not the best designs in the world] > Maybe that is the price of owning a Brit boat or other product. LOL. Right. It's funny. On my sailing group the discussion has recently been about how sailors often also own British cars. Both activities are dumb but fun. After talking about MG's for a while, we suddenly turned to VW's, and how we all also owned a bunch of them. . . . Now the same thing here. . . Maybe it's something in the air. . . . . No, that's just rain. . . . . I was in Jersey, in the Channel Islands, last year, and I visited an old British castle. I had been traveling with a colleague (long business trip) in the UK for a couple weeks. We had been sort of bemused by the Brits. As we approached this castle, there was a huge sign, explaining the thing. It said, and I quote: "The best way to defend a castle is to go inside and wait for help to arrive." We stood there for a minute, then started laughing hysterically. Other tourists probably thought we were drunk. I think I actually ended up on the ground rolling around. . . . Well. . . you had to be there. Brits. Gotta love 'em. Anyone for a spot of nice, warm beer . . . er, ale? Mark P.S. To all Brits: just kidding around. . . After all, you can't win EVERY revolutionary war, right? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
BOOjum posted: <<<ralph diaz writes: Perhaps this discussion is being unfair. After all, it may be expecting to much of our British friends. <snip> the car was a lovable but high maintenance lemon! Maybe that is the price of owning a Brit boat or other product.>>> <<Watch closely as Ralph demonstrates the North American Kayakers Trolling technique ;} See the bait thrown into the water, its a good line - perhaps a little strong, but you need a strong line to bring up the elusive flaming brit fish. Now, stand back quietly and see if there's a bite..>> Naw, Ralph has a point...even my friend's expensive Jag has a spot o' petroleum dripping from under the engine. As far as hatches, I've only ever had one go on me, and that was the year I had three shoulder surgeries to both shoulders, and was out of action for some time (the first acromioplasty failed, so I had to go to open surgeries with a longer healing time). The kayak was stored in a hot barn, suspended high aloft. Hatches were left in place, so it is weird that only one deteriorated. It turned "chalky" and "crumbly" over the entire inside and outside surface. I added an oval hatch a few years back (4 years or so) and it has a bit of cracking around the inside lip edge. The one original 7-inch hatch is still going strong!!! Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves -- well, they used to. I Armorall twice a year (Fall and Spring) and twice in the summer on just the inside. Bear in mind, I use my kayak a fair bit, and the hatches are on and off a lot. I also "sealed" the inside of my compartments with a light coat of white Monopoxy paint (I've thought of everything -- you have to with a troublesome piece of British machinery). Regarding entry time vs the Caribou hatch system, I can access gear in two seconds! One second if its a contest. I vote the Caribou off the island -- sorry Mark. In all seriousness, it is a great system, but do be aware that CD kayaks generally, do suffer seal problems from time to time -- that being empirically evidenced here on my coast where a number of them are made. The hatches are great -- it's just the seal. Do comply with your excellent owner's manual, and do remember in general, webbing stretches when it gets wet. The local VCP dealer recommends hatches be removed during storage, and that they be kept indoors. He indicated to me that the newest VCP units use a better rubber, and should last 10 years plus. No, warnings are not given suggesting replacement necessity within that ten year period. Do NA kayak dealers give you replacement parameters for the hatch seals on your fiberglass or neoprene hatch covers? I don't think so. As far as Ralph's trolling technique, the only thing _that_ New Yorker can bring up are old rubber boots -- which apparently we have filleted, pan broiled, and slowly chewed every morsel off to death. Yeah. Paddlewise, we eat anything! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> lets hear from folks who have VCP hatches that have out lived 3 yrs... or is it normal to replace them after 3yrs? if so, someone needs to bring out another product. bye bye bliven >> Looks like I've had pretty good luck with VCP hatch covers. I recently replaced a couple of five-year-old VCP 7-inch hatch covers, but only as a precaution. They had developed a dome shape from being left on the kayak in the hot sun, and they had started to develop a fine alligator maze of superficial cracks on the outside. The insides, however, are still smooth, new-looking, and crack-free. Since I often leave the kayaks on the car between trips, the covers had plenty of exposure to the Minnesota sun. The only protection I gave them, aside from putting the covers inside the hatches on guaranteed rainless days, was to occasionally apply 303 inside and out. In a related matter, the Kajaksport forward hatch on my wife's Romany recently started leaking up to a cup of water per rolling session or rainstorm. It used to be so airtight that the hatch cover would dome in the hot sun. An employee of Trek & Trail told me such leaks are often caused by the gasket material under the rim deteriorating. This appears to be a black liquid gasket material similar to that used on automobile windshields, and apparently it is used as an adhesive to mount the rim to the kayak. Sure enough, the leak continued even after I replaced the hatch cover. Last weekend I ran a bead of AquaSeal around the edge of the gasket both inside and out, and tomorrow we'll find out whether it still leaks or not. BTW, Kajaksport hatch covers are a different material from the VCP covers, and retain their flexibility much longer -- how much longer, I don't know yet. The 7-inch VCP hatch cover, however, is easier to remove and replace with one hand, which is why I think Nigel Dennis was smart to use it for the day hatch cover on the Romanys. Also, the 10-inch Romany cover (now made in the UK by NDK) is about $10 cheaper than the 7-inch VCP cover. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lucas, the Prince of Darkness! Been there, done that, on the Verazzano Narrows Bridge at 10pm! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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