I've been reading with interest the E-conversation about what's been referred to as "commando" camping. Out here in Washington state I (and like-minded friends) call it "guerrilla camping." As a single woman paddler/cyclist/hiker/wanderer who often travels alone, I feel that it's generally safer for me to camp in a spot that pretty well conceals the fact that I'm there. I think it's generally safer for me to guerrilla-camp than it is for me to stay in a motel! When I camp, I pretty much take up a minimal amount of space -- just enough for me and my boat or pack or bike. It would never occur to me to start a fire or do anything else that would advertise that I was there. In fact, I rarely even set up a tent, not only because it could draw attention, but also because it would slow me down if for some reason I had to exit in a hurry. Anyway, I have never asked permission of anyone to stay anywhere, largely because I don't want people to know I'm sleeping out under the stars all by my lonesome. It's not that I don't think that it's a courtesy to ask permission, it's just that I'm less interested in courtesy than in in my own personal safety. Presumably none of you male paddlers ever have to think this way. I would like to note the difference in the terms used to describe this kind of camping. Webster's says a "commando" is "a member of a small fighting force specially trained for making quick, destructive raids." On the other hand, "guerrilla" is defined as "a member of an irregular force operating in small groups capable of great speed and mobility." I like to think that my secret camping has less to do with destructive raids than with speed and mobility! In fact, I often pick my guerrilla camping spot after dark (so as to ensure that the spot I've chosen doesn't turn out to be the local teenage party haunt, and also to reduce the chance that anyone will see me), and generally bug out by dawn. Any other women guerrilla campers out there? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About 20 Years ago I guerrilla camped while on a bicycle trip around Lake Michigan and into Canada. It was a lot of fun and a wonderful adventure, but the greatest thing about it was the feeling of freedom. You never knew or cared where you were going to spend the night. I never had any problems with people bothering me, but was scared to death while sleeping in a ditch near the locks at Sault St Marie. A ship blew its horn at 3:00 and needless to say I wasn't expecting that. I prefer the camp grounds because ya meet such nice people. Now days, I'd only guerrilla as a back up plan. Take care jim gabriel jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The law is not always against the commando camper. Once I and my girlfriend were cycling in brittain, and could not find any legal campsite. We were about 40 miles north of Londen, in a fairly populated area, so commando camping was out of the question. Meanwhile the wether detoriated, and it was getting dark, so we decided to ask for a (legal) campsite at a local police station. The cops didn't know any legal campsites nearby, and proposed to show us the local park to pitch up our tent. But t was a not so smal city so my girlfriend was concerned about gangs of the local youth, and also it was really pouring down, so I asked for another solution. Then the cops offered us there interogation room for the night. Only if they would pick up somebody we would have to move out. The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it is quite interesting to watch their reaction when you tell people that you once had to spend a night at a police station! Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had an analogous experience while commando camping on the Hudson. We pulled up at a spot that actually was suggested to us by a park official who we know which was not legal but okay according to him. Well, we were set up when a parks enforcement cop came by saying we shouldn't be there. Using the name of the parks guy who said it was okay cut no ice with this enforcement fellow. He asked us to paddle on to another spot about 3 miles downriver also not legal. But the currents were against us and we had already done about 35 miles that day. He then looked us over again, saw we were real low impact and then said it was okay but was worried about all the kids who tended to hang out in the area drinking and shooting up. He said if they bothered us to go to the enforcement office. So in a sense we were now under the official protection of the park police in an illegal spot! This whole commando camping discussion has been quite a revelation. People who I thought would find it okay seem strongly against. And some of those who I thought would be against seemed to be okay on it. Also I was quite surprised over how black and white some people saw it particularly the vehemence of some of those advocating the sanctity of private property. I think a lot has to do with the area involved. For example, those in the Northwest seem most sensitive about it probably because of the flack over overuse of the San Juans and such by kayakers. There are very good reasons not to commando camp in such sensitive areas. Elsewhere, though, I think it is a different matter. I am also surprised to see that some people see little difference between 20 paddlers pulling up on a person's front lawn to defecate, pee, break tree branches for an open fire and a paddler or two pulling in to a quiet corner at dusk, paddling off at dawn and leaving not a mark on the place. It's like the difference in basketball between an intentional foul and a no harm no foul call. Perhaps this is a discussion to have over a campfire at a legal kayak campsite that permits open fires, a site blessed with woodchip padded paths to clean latrines and wooden tent platforms, running water and showers etc. Unfortunately there are not many of these around. ralph diaz Merijn Wijnen wrote: > > The law is not always against the commando camper. > > Once I and my girlfriend were cycling in brittain, and could not find any legal campsite. We were > about 40 miles north of Londen, in a fairly populated area, so commando camping was out of the > question. Meanwhile the wether detoriated, and it was getting dark, so we decided to ask for a > (legal) campsite at a local police station. > The cops didn't know any legal campsites nearby, and proposed to show us the local park to > pitch up our tent. But t was a not so smal city so my girlfriend was concerned about gangs of the > local youth, and also it was really pouring down, so I asked for another solution. Then the cops > offered us there interogation room for the night. Only if they would pick up somebody we would > have to move out. > The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it is quite interesting to watch > their reaction when you tell people that you once had to spend a night at a police station! > > Greetings, > > Merijn > > > > ****************************** > Merijn Wijnen > Vinkenhofje 8 > 5613 CN Eindhoven > The Netherlands > Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) > Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice > E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl > Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl > Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Then the cops offered us their interogation room for the night. What a heart-warming story! Britain, contrary to mistaken popular believe, is a very friendly country. I've had experiences like this in England. People go out of their way to be helpful. A local man once spent a full 5 minutes explaining to me how to catch a bus to go to a small village in Devon. His accent was so thick that I couldn't understand a word of what he said! I didn't have the heart to tell him this, of course ;-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Merijn Wijnen Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 9:07 AM To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping The law is not always against the commando camper. Once I and my girlfriend were cycling in brittain, and could not find any legal campsite. We were about 40 miles north of Londen, in a fairly populated area, so commando camping was out of the question. Meanwhile the wether detoriated, and it was getting dark, so we decided to ask for a (legal) campsite at a local police station. The cops didn't know any legal campsites nearby, and proposed to show us the local park to pitch up our tent. But t was a not so smal city so my girlfriend was concerned about gangs of the local youth, and also it was really pouring down, so I asked for another solution. Then the cops offered us there interogation room for the night. Only if they would pick up somebody we would have to move out. The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it is quite interesting to watch their reaction when you tell people that you once had to spend a night at a police station! Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I once pulled into a small town in Spain and asked about accomodations. Told the fellow I was looking for an economy room. He said "I'm on duty at the morgue. You can sack out there if you like." Put my sleeping bag on the marble slab and had a good sleep. That was one of the more unusual places I've "camped." Sounds a bit like Merijn's experience. Robert > The cops didn't know any legal campsites nearby, and proposed to show us the local park to > pitch up our tent. But t was a not so smal city so my girlfriend was concerned about gangs of the > local youth, and also it was really pouring down, so I asked for another solution. Then the cops > offered us there interogation room for the night. Only if they would pick up somebody we would > have to move out. > The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it is quite interesting to watch > their reaction when you tell people that you once had to spend a night at a police station! > > Greetings, > > Merijn merijn_at_music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>About 20 Years ago I guerrilla camped while on a bicycle trip around Lake >Michigan and into Canada. It was a lot of fun and a wonderful adventure, >but the greatest thing about it was the feeling of freedom.< <snipsnip> Yah, that's the thing! We all have so little freedom in our lives anymore, ya know? And isn't that a lot of what we're seeking by exploring under our own power in boats, on bikes, and on foot? I generally guerrilla-camp as a rule and a plan, and only use campgrounds or official campsites when necessary, convenient, or to protect the natural environment. After all, showers are a good thing.... Of course, on frequently-used hiking trails in the mountains, I wouldn't think of squishing a garden of lovely wildflowers when there is a perfectly good denuded patch of hard packed mud to sleep on! ;-) I disagree that guerrilla camping is theft. Like Joe Brzoza, all I leave is a little flat patch in the grass. And I also agree with the serious backpacker who never even cooks at his guerrilla camping spots... I think that's really in the true spirit of low-impact camping. Someone in a previous message said they think few people really understand how low-impact camping can really be. I think that's very true. Although I have to admit that when camping with friends at our local Cascadia Marine Trail sites here in Puget Sound, I do get a kick out of all the cool stuff my friends can cram into their boats... BBQs, lounge chairs, cakes, pies, coolers filled with steaks and beer.... When I pack for camping -- even at an honest-to-God, paid-for campsite -- I would never even think to bring such things! But don't get me wrong.... when they pull all those goodies out of their boats, I think to myself, "Why didn't I think of bringing that?!" And of course, I'm not opposed to steak handouts...... :-) Bruce is right... not everyone is a conscientious guerrilla camper. I guess that's why I don't talk a whole lot about guerrilla camping to folks who don't already do it (besides, I wouldn't want them to find and take over my own favorite spots.....!). I'm confident that my friends who engage in this secret pasttime do take very good care of the 5x10 spaces they occupy for six or eight hours. As for the yahoos who are actually engaging in "commando partying" and leave their beer cans, cig butts and trash behind.... well, I doubt any of those types are even in on this conversation! Happy guerrilla camping! SYOW, Kasia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From owner-paddlewise_at_ns1.intelenet.net Thu Jul 6 12:15 PDT 2000 > As a single woman paddler/cyclist/hiker/wanderer who often travels alone, I > feel that it's generally safer for me to camp in a spot that pretty well > conceals the fact that I'm there. And what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds you while you are out there all alone? I'm surprised at the number of people who think they are unobserved when in fact, locals often know you are there. Some react, some do not. If the owner doesn't know you are there at that time, often they find out later. Some are not amused. I've camped alone plenty of times in campgrounds and on public land and never felt threatened. I'd rather be visible to other campers than camped in a remote area alone where I was not supposed to be. I reserve the really remote primitive camping that I do on public land and away from campgrounds for those trips with myself and one or more other persons if I am concerned about my safety as a female paddler. <snip> > Anyway, I have never asked permission of anyone to stay anywhere, largely > because I don't want people to know I'm sleeping out under the stars all by > my lonesome. It's not that I don't think that it's a courtesy to ask > permission, it's just that I'm less interested in courtesy than in in my own > personal safety. A lot of folks own land in remote areas because they, too, are seeking privacy and solitude far from the maddening crowd. I would say be aware that it is possible at some point an owner is going to decide to press charges and my guess would be that any court would have more sympathy to the owner's right to privacy on their own property than your need to feel safe while out exploring freedom through camping alone. Paddlers tresspassing to camp on private land without permission sounds like a good argument for boat registration. (sigh) Regards, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Merijn Wijnen" <merijn_at_music.demon.nl> > The law is not always against the commando camper. <snip> > The result: a good night of sleep, and dry wether next morning. And it > is quite interesting to watch their reaction when you tell people that > you once had to spend a night at a police station! Wow! I would have never guessed that asking permission would get you a night at the hoosegow! :-) Thanks for the humorous story, Merijn. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>And what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds >you while you are out there all alone?< <snipsnip> Are you suggesting that because I'm a woman, I shouldn't be out alone? I'm not going to let worries about "what might happen" keep me from living my life. But just like everyone else -- men included -- I need to be conscious of safety. It's kind of like that discussion about not leaving food or toothpaste in your tent to reduce the chance that a bear will identify you as a tasty morsel. Of course, folks travelling in bear country have been known to carry a gun for protection. Maybe I should think about getting a gun permit! ;-) Anyway, if a campground is busy and full, then sure, it's likely safe to camp there as a woman alone. But if the only other occupants are a bunch of guys with a cooler full of beer, I'll pass, thanks. Really, I can't remember the last time I camped in a busy campground. That would sort of imply that I was car-camping, and I'd still prefer a guerrilla camping spot where I can sleep in the back of my station wagon, rather than a crowded, noisy campground filled with blaring radios and screaming kids! to catching a few z's in the woods, it appears some folks think that guerrilla camping means setting up a tent on someone's lawn and hoping the property owner won't notice. Believe me, it's not impossible to find a place to sneak a sleep without folks knowing about it. As a transplanted East Coaster (Chesapeake Bay region), I appreciate that out West here it's a heckuva lot easier to find a secluded spot to snooze. If one is truly practicing "low-impact guerrilla camping" -- no fires, no noise, no brush-clearing or wood-chopping, etc. -- I don't know what the difference is between sleeping for eight hours and stopping unseen on someone's property to take a pee, to have lunch or to take a mid-day snooze break. While I have lots of friends with whom I enjoy getting outdoors, I find I'm most connected with my environment and more open to my experience of life when I'm alone. Jackie suggested that even travelling with one other woman is safer than a woman travelling alone, but I doubt that's true. And don't get me wrong... having a man around can be handy -- they can lift heavy stuff, open tight jars, and some can even cook! ;-) -- and there are definitely places where it's safer to travel with a man in tow (I'm thinking particularly of some international destinations). I have one particular male friend who is a champion guerrilla camper. Together we'd found some really primo places to nod off. In all our backcountry adventures, we have never once stayed in an official camping spot. I apologize to all of you out there who view me a rogue. Any other hard-core guerrilla campers lurking? I know you're out there!!!! Being your usual stealthy selves....... SYOW, Kasia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Any other hard-core guerrilla campers lurking? I know you're out there!!!! > Being your usual stealthy selves....... > > SYOW, > Kasia > not me, but i got this fantasy about kayaking up to a big cypress tree and spending the night up there sleeping in something. any kayak tree sleepers out there? how do you do it? bye by bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: >I think a lot has to do with the area involved. For example, those in >the Northwest seem most sensitive about it probably because of the flack >over overuse of the San Juans and such by kayakers.< Ralph, you are so right! I can hardly picture a successful guerrilla camping trip in the San Juans, except perhaps in winter. Most of Puget Sound is crowded with waterfront homes, and certainly if I needed to bivouac beside the dock on someone's front lawn, I'd be asking for permission. >I am also surprised to see that some people see little difference between 20 paddlers pulling up on a person's front lawn to defecate, pee, break tree branches for an open fire and a paddler or two pulling in to a quiet corner at dusk, paddling off at dawn and leaving not a mark on the place.< Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly rude "no tresspassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, but in fact we went out of our way to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. What I thought was amusing was that the property owner seemed to be trying to keep people off a little strip of sticky mud, as it was sort of a cliff there and not even a hint of a spot to sleep on at high tide! It's not as though they were trying to keep us off their lovely lawn or even an enticing woodland. And there's no way the spot could be used as a party spot or anything. Anyway, we really only landed long enough to take the photo, but I confess we were just irked by that sign. >Perhaps this is a discussion to have over a campfire< OK, who's plannin' the trip?! :-) SYOW, Kasia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Kasia Pierzga" <kasia_pierzga_at_hotmail.com> > >And what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds > >you while you are out there all alone?< > > <snipsnip> > > Are you suggesting that because I'm a woman, I shouldn't be out alone? I'm Not only did I not suggest that, I stated I have traveled and camped as a lone female myself on numerous occasions... in the US and overseas. > not going to let worries about "what might happen" keep me from living my > life. But just like everyone else -- men included -- I need to be > conscious of safety. Those that know me personally know that I live my life that way (not allowing worries about what might happen preventing me from experiencing life). But I also think it is not wise to camp on private property without asking permission or deliberately avoiding asking permission because you fear the owner will say no. If you do so, be prepared for the consequences. Unfortunately, it may have impact on the rest of us. You continue to refer to your gender as an issue of safety and why you won't tell the property owner you are camping on their property for your own safety. *Your* safety is not all that is at issue here. These days, there are many single female property owners that live out in the "boonies" (I was one for many years). A lone individual unannounced and uninvited spending time on my property (I'm talking 20 acres in an area with similar acreage and more for property owners... not a small front lawn in a subdivision) was a cause of concern for me because past experience meant 50% were there for the view... my place was elevated with a spectacular view of the hill country... and 50% were up to no good. Hard for me (and other property owners) to know who was which until it was too late. And it isn't only the single female property owners that become concerned about their safety. Several hundred acres were burned near me along with a home and two outbuildings when a camper decided to fire up a camp stove during high-risk fire season. *We* don't know what *you* are up to. We can't know unless you ask and give us a chance to say "please be our guest, no camp stoves, ok? and you'll find the water spicket by the back door, so help yourself." > Anyway, if a campground is busy and full, then sure, it's likely safe > to camp there as a woman alone. But if the only other occupants are > a bunch of guys with a cooler full of beer, I'll pass, thanks. What campgrounds are you referring to? The national parks and state parks that I'm familiar with have a no-alcohol policy with park rangers on duty. I repeat, I have never felt threatened when camped in public campgrounds and I have found plenty of campgrounds, even in California at the right time of year, that are virtually empty except for the ranger on patrol. > If one is truly practicing "low-impact guerrilla camping" -- no fires, no > noise, no brush-clearing or wood-chopping, etc. -- I don't know what the > difference is between sleeping for eight hours and stopping unseen on > someone's property to take a pee, to have lunch or to take a mid-day snooze > break. You will get no argument from me about low-impact camping. I'm a strong proponent of low-impact camping. The issue is tresspassing and respect for property owners and the fall-out that disregarding that respect might have on the paddling community at large. To some property owners, 20 at one time or one-at-a-time over 20 visits still means the same thing... you are there without permission and invading *their* privacy. If you show common courtesy and ask permission, then they are aware of your intentions and most likely will be happy to allow you to camp (I agree with Mark and I think most owners would be quite hospitable when shown due respect and asked which leaves a much better impression about our sport). > Jackie suggested that even travelling with one other woman is safer than a > woman travelling alone, but I doubt that's true. No, I did not say that. I said if I had concerns about being a lone female traveler to primitive camping grounds, I would reserve those trips to go with another paddler or paddlers. It just happens that they have been with males or a combination males and females. > And don't get me wrong... > having a man around can be handy -- they can lift heavy stuff, open tight > jars, and some can even cook! ;-) -- and there are definitely places where > it's safer to travel with a man in tow (I'm thinking particularly of some > international destinations). Which basically punctuates the point I made previously.... what do you plan to do when whomever it is you are hiding from finds you as you are camped out alone? It has happened. I'm afraid you are lulling yourself into a sense of false security by thinking you are always stealth. There have been examples here where other paddlers were sure they were stealth camping only to find out the next day they were not. I will repeat what I said earlier, many who think they are unobserved are mistaken. Regards, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Kasia Pierzga" <kasia_pierzga_at_hotmail.com> > Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a > friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly > rude "no tresspassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget > Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of > those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, but in fact we went out of our way > to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. I avoided no-tresspassing signs on my property for a long time but decided I had no choice when I found a pile of beer bottles and cigarette butts on my property during a particularly dry season. I fought one fire out there with neighbors and really didn't want to fight another. In some places (don't know about your area) one measure a property owner has for protecting themselves from losing their property to civil lawsuit in case a tresspasser becomes injured on their property is to post it with "No Tresspassing" signs. Just an fyi. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote: [snip] > In some places (don't know about your area) one measure a property > owner has for protecting themselves from losing their property to civil > lawsuit in case a tresspasser becomes injured on their property is to > post it with "No Tresspassing" signs. This is exactly right. I know plenty of people who put up no trespassing signs solely because the absence of them can be relevant in any liability determination. It's unfortunate. I have resisted putting up the signs myself, and most of my neighbors along the coast have, as well (obnoxious vacation home owners that they are <g>). The signs themselves deface the nature beauty of the place, but some people do feel the need to have them. There is an old trail that runs along the coast from Rockland to Rockport -- or at least it used to run that distance -- which crosses my property and that of lots of other people. For the fairly nice stretch from Rockport out a couple of miles, I know of only two people who have put up no trespassing signs. In one case, I believe it was for liability reasons, and folks do walk the trail across that piece. In other case, it is my understanding that the owner really does not want people to walk the property. It's sad, because the trail is very beautiful. There is also a Nature Conservancy piece nearby where the trail can be accessed (legally -- there is even a trailhead marker with maps) from the road. I have found it pleasing to see that so many of the "vacation home owners" along the stretch have no objection to keeping the trail open to those who wish to walk along the shore. If you land your kayak here, it can be a nice stroll. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Kasia Pierzga" wrote: } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping > > Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of myself and a > friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of a particularly > rude "no trespassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here in south Puget > Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you imagine I'm one of > those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, It does indeed come to mind. > but in fact we went out of our way > to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. What I thought was > amusing was that the property owner seemed to be trying to keep people off a > little strip of sticky mud, as it was sort of a cliff there and not even a > hint of a spot to sleep on at high tide! It's not as though they were trying > to keep us off their lovely lawn or even an enticing woodland. And there's > no way the spot could be used as a party spot or anything. Anyway, we really > only landed long enough to take the photo, but I confess we were just irked > by that sign. So let me get this straight. You not only don't ask people's permission to camp on their land, you specifically go out of your way to trespass when they specifically ask you not to? You definitely sound pretty obnoxious to me. Oh, I forgot, you're "intrepid". -- Bob Myers FirstWorld Communications, Inc. Email: bob.myers_at_firstworld.com 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.firstworld.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: > So let me get this straight. > > You not only don't ask people's permission to camp on their land, you > specifically go out of your way to trespass when they specifically ask > you not to? > > You definitely sound pretty obnoxious to me. > > Oh, I forgot, you're "intrepid". [Chuckle] Right on, Bob. I had the same reaction. Kasia, you're coming off as rather rude yourself, in my not-so-humble opinion. I hope you don't resort to having your photo taken in front of no trespassing signs in my area -- my neighbors will find that fairly offensive, and it's just the kind of thing that will inspire them (and perhaps me) to take greater measures to prohibit trespassing. In other words, your conduct is injurious to us all. Grow up a little, will ya. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska on the subject. (that oughta cool off those keyboards!<grin>) It's clear that there are widely divergent views held by different parties and there are probably more variables involved than any of us would want to try to think about. I vote to drop this line of discussion and move on to more productive avenues.... Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: bob_at_intelenet.net [mailto:bob_at_intelenet.net] > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 12:51 PM > To: Kasia Pierzga; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping > > > "Kasia Pierzga" wrote: > } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commado" Camping > > > > Yeah, big difference there. However, I do have a photo of > myself and a > > friend (another intrepid female paddler) posing in front of > a particularly > > rude "no trespassing" sign on the shoreline somewhere here > in south Puget > > Sound. I hesitate to admit this to you folks lest you > imagine I'm one of > > those obnoxious kayakers of dubious fame, > > It does indeed come to mind. > > > but in fact we went out of our way > > to land on that beach to take a photo with that sign. What > I thought was > > amusing was that the property owner seemed to be trying to > keep people off a > > little strip of sticky mud, as it was sort of a cliff there > and not even a > > hint of a spot to sleep on at high tide! It's not as though > they were trying > > to keep us off their lovely lawn or even an enticing > woodland. And there's > > no way the spot could be used as a party spot or anything. > Anyway, we really > > only landed long enough to take the photo, but I confess we > were just irked > > by that sign. > > So let me get this straight. > > You not only don't ask people's permission to camp on their land, you > specifically go out of your way to trespass when they specifically ask > you not to? > > You definitely sound pretty obnoxious to me. > > Oh, I forgot, you're "intrepid". > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:22 PM 7/7/00 -0800, Seng, Dave wrote: >OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska on the subject. >(that oughta cool off those keyboards!<grin>) It's clear that there are >widely divergent views held by different parties and there are probably more >variables involved than any of us would want to try to think about. I vote >to drop this line of discussion and move on to more productive avenues.... Fine with me. Which would you prefer? -- rudder vs. no rudder? -- feathered vs. nonfeathered vs. Inuit? -- plastic vs. fiberglass? -- or even, roll/paddle float vs. sponsons? ;-) -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About 2 years ago, while on a canoe trip down the Columbia River from Wenatchee, WA to Richland, WA with some high school aged coed Scouts, we found that our planned campsite was now a vacation home development. I had checked with the BLM who managed the area, and was told that it was still uninhabited, and that it would be ok to camp there. Obviously, he was part of the 10% who don't get the word. Some kind hearted soul invited us to camp on his lawn, and woke us up with coffee and donuts the next morning. They were so hospitable that we didn't get underweigh until about 1030 the next morning. The winds came up about 1100 that day and we were literally blown onto the beach. We waited for a while, hoping that the winds would slack some, but to no avail. I made the decision to spend the night where we were (Frenchman Bar just above Vantage). The area was desert, and there was no one to ask. It's hard to think of a more desolate area. Just as I gave the kids the go-ahead to start setting up their tents, the owner's agent approached on his 4x4 scooter, demanding to know what we were up to and to get off his beach. I apologized and explained our situation. He is a retired USCG Senior Chief, and understood about small boats and large waves. His attitude changed and he directed us to a campsite that he had prepared, with a big fire pit and lots of wood (what is it about Scouts and fire?). Sometimes Serendipity does wonderful things. He had dinner with us that night, (Curry Chicken and Veggies over Rice) and saw us off in the morning. Of course, we left the campsite(s) better than we found them, minus a little wood. ;-) Steve Featherkile > [Original Message] > From: Kasia Pierzga <kasia_pierzga_at_hotmail.com> > > Any other hard-core guerrilla campers lurking? I know you're out there!!!! > Being your usual stealthy selves....... > > SYOW, > Kasia > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** --- Steven Featherkile --- madwolf_at_earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Seng, Dave" <Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us> > > OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska on the subject. > (that oughta cool off those keyboards!<grin>) It's clear that there are > widely divergent views held by different parties and there are probably more > variables involved than any of us would want to try to think about. I vote > to drop this line of discussion and move on to more productive avenues.... > > > From: bob_at_intelenet.net [mailto:bob_at_intelenet.net] > > > > So let me get this straight. > > > > You not only don't ask people's permission to camp on their land, you > > specifically go out of your way to trespass when they specifically ask > > you not to? > > > > You definitely sound pretty obnoxious to me. Some may be uncomfortable with the direction of this discussion but the issue is an important one and may determine what areas will be open (or not) to paddlers for kayak camping. The issue of kayakers rudely thumbing their noses at property rights of owners is where this discussion began (the article by Tamia Nelson). I think Bob is perfectly within line to express concern, even distate, at the rude behavior of a kayaker who brags about that behavior here on PaddleWise. The rude actions of kayakers towards private property owners is an issue we should *all* be concerned with because, as Ralph pointed out, camping locations are getting more and more sparse in many areas. Property owners are getting fed up as Dave Kruger noted by banding together to buy up kayak launch points and convince officials to restrict access to launch points. I hope the kayaker and her friend were not seen but probably were. Irresponsible and rude jet skiiers have gotten *all* jet skiiers banned from numerous areas as the responsible jet skiiers waited until it was too late to speak up. Shocked and surprised to discover that it is possible to lose access to favorite jetski spots, they are now attempting to put pressure on their peers to change the bad behavior but in many cases, it's too little too late. We need to do something now or we will find that we kayakers will be welcomed less and less and, in some places, outright banned. Regards, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rich Beatty (responding about a shoreside trail that crosses my land) wrote: > I'm not a lawyer but I do understand that many states recognized established > rights of way. If people have been using the trail regularly for 15(?) years, it > becomes a right of way. The land owner has his restricted rights in such cases. Of course, many states recognize some form of adverse possession or other principle that can result in a public right of way due to usage over time. In the case of my land, that has not happened. It's an issue I'm very familiar with (unlike Rich, I am a lawyer, BTW -- although I suspect Rich chose the wiser professional course <G>). Without getting into the legal doctrine, there are a number of issues that are generally relevant, including the concept of the usage being "adverse." Permitted use does not result in adverse possession. There are many other issues. I respond here mainly because this is a subject that could be relevant to paddlers. . . . But I won't get into in detail at this time. . . BTW, I have been thinking for years of working on a compendium of laws relating to public access to waterways. It would be written for for the non-lawyer (ie, the paddler, rower, sailor, swimmer, etc). I'd welcome any thoughts you guys might have about the usefulness of such a book. . . Mark Lane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been following this train of thought for the last several days .... Mark Lane and Rich Beatty have brought up the subject of some form of adverse possession or other principle that can result in a public right of way due to usage over time. I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from the high water line. There all no private beaches .... they belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'. There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'. There are some cases where I wouldn't want to argue that point with some indian tribes, or ranchers that have been 'invaded' by the MST (Sem Terra movement), or in areas along the borders with Columbia, Venezuela, or Bolivia frequented by 'drug smugglers' .... (the biggest problem that I see from them is the wakes from their high speed boats ... they slow down for no one). Brazilians are actually very ecology minded .... and the novelty of kayakers or canoers arriving somewhere ... leads to a hospitality unequaled anywhere in the world. We are in the process of launching a kayak tour operation in Brazil this winter (target date December 15), and all of the guides that we have selected to work with us are avid ecologists, some actually work for the government (their normal 'day job') in that field. My 'gut feeling' that anyone that travels that far to explore new waters is probably like minded. (http://www.andetur.com/Brazil/Projects/sea_kayak.htm) Capt. Donald R. Reid - Director International Professional Member - Association for International Business Brazil Destination Specialist Escorted Tour Specialist Andetur Brazilian Travel Club Andetur Group Management USA: P.O. Box 52 - Montegut, LA 70377 Phone: (504) 594-0147; if busy dial (888) 289-9066, then 504-594-0147 FAX International - +1 603-250-5298 (FAX mailbox) ICQ # 8311106 Personal Communication Center (http://wwp.mirabilis.com/8311106) TOUR PACKAGER & COORDINATOR - based in NATAL, RN, BRAZIL Website: http://www.andetur.com Email: mailto:dreid_at_andetur.com "Mark Twain said: "The secret to success is - find out where people are going and get there first". WE INVEST IN BRAZIL! THE DESTINATION OF THE NEW MILLENNIUM - BRAZIL 2000 Brazil: Av. Eng. Roberto Freire, 576, Sl 19 Centro Sul Ponta Negra, Natal, RN 59000 Telefax: Natal(084) 219-3953; FAX USA (801) 720-5877 Cellular (084) 969-3981 Email: (mailto:Andetur_at_andetur.com.br) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Donald R. Reid wrote: > > I've been following this train of thought for the last > several days .... Mark Lane and Rich Beatty have brought up > the subject of some form of adverse possession or other > principle that can result in a public right of way due to > usage over time. > > I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and > it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine > land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from > the high water line. There all no private beaches .... they > belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'. > There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'. Most countries have similar rules, i.e. a fairly wide-band of shoreline ABOVE the mean high tide line is public. Depending on your outlook, the US is either foreward looking or backward looking regarding this. BTW, I was impressed in my visits to Puerto Rico to find that something similar applies there, i.e. a wide band of the beaches belongs to the public. The hotels, no matter how much they would like the situation to be different, cannot ban innocent passage along the beaches in front of their property. Also, and this is critical, there must be access to those beachs from the land at decent intervals. Just a word about my "romanticizing" commando camping. I don't think I have. Getting in after dark, stumbling around without lights, not talking loudly, getting your tent down in very early morning light and on your way before the sun comes up is hardly my idea of "romantic." I see it as a necessary evil at times when you can't find anywhere else to camp. Many people are new to camping and kayak camping and don't have the wisdom and savvy of many of the old hands who populate this listserve. I set down guidelines in order to help the unaware ones make as little impact as possible on the privacy of land. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It used to be that way in Australia as well. Don't know how it is these days, but from my last trip to Queensland I seem to recall Japanese resort developments that had closed off public access to sections of beach, so perhaps the laws have changed. Or my recollection may be faulty. Maybe someone in Oz could bring us up to date. Ira On 7/8/00 8:23 PM Donald R. Reid (dreid_at_andetur.com) wrote: [snip] > >I have lived in Brazil off and on for over 20 years ... and >it is very interesting there in the fact that all marine >land is considered public domain from 15 - 25 meters from >the high water line. There all no private beaches .... they >belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'. >There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'. [big snip] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"There all no private beaches .... they belong to the people of Brazil ... called 'marine land'. There are no fences allowed on 'marine land'." "It used to be that way in Australia as well." Laws regarding land ownership are State matters in Australia, so the situation may vary around the country. I don't know about Queensland. In my part of Australia, Victoria, generally the coast is public land. That is not to say that camping is allowed. "No camping" signs are liberally sprinkled near popular surfing areas, and elsewhere. We have had an ongoing controversy on the southern shores of Port Phillip Bay, where a trucking millionaire with a cliff top mansion erected posts on the public beach below to exclude others, and erected a "boat shed" sufficient to accommodate his live-in staff. Fortunately, other rich locals wouldn't put up with any interference to their morning walk along the beach. Some of the best paddling coast is protected by National Parks, including Wilson's Promontory, the southernmost part of the Australian mainland. This place is so popular at Christmas and warm weather holiday weekends, that ballots are run for camping bookings. No problems last weekend though, in the middle of winter there is plenty of camping. Regards, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
An interesting (to me) perspective to the discussion on "commando camping". I keep my single sea kayak and my whitewater boat in a community boathouse which local paddlers rent from the city. When I go to access my boats I often find "street people" sleeping in the recessed boathouse doorway, taking shelter against the heavy Vancouver rains. These people are not "commando camping" for fun or sport - they have no homes, and I am generally very sympathic to their situation. However, just as the private property owner's attitude towards kayak campers varies with the conduct of the "guests", so my attitude varies with the way these visitors deport themselves. Most are very polite and civil, but a few leave behind newspapers (their "bedding"), empty bottles and cans, and a strong smell of urine, necessitating a clean-up and hose-down of the area. These thoughtless ones may eventually ruin an otherwise congenial "dual-use" of the doorway, if the abuse results in the installation of a folding gate which would block access for the "innocent" sleepers. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Those of us that found our favorite little known and free campsites advertised nationally as part of the new Cascadia Marine Trail by some well meaning do gooders feel like they were "sold down the river". I believe the term "sold down the river" comes from slaves who could do nothing while their offspring were take away from them and sold further down the river. Almost every watertrail site existed before in some form so essentially what the Watertrails organization did was post some signs and claim them as their own and then advertised ("sold") them to a nationwide audience. A former president of the WA Watertrails organization personally apologized to me for his involvement in helping create this monster. It seemed like a good idea at the time (making more campsites for paddlers) but that was not the result, at least so far. Even if they eventually do get more camping areas opened I now don't think it will have been worth it. I consider the $100 I donated to help WWTA get started was the worst donation I ever made. I guess there is some guilt on my part here too for helping this get started. "Call someplace paradise and kiss it goodbye." The Eagles Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert C. Cline <rccline_at_swbell.net> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Cc: PaddleWise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 5:29 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Commando" Camping > Matt: > > Could you expoind a bit more on what happened with Water Trails? How did > the campsites get sold down the river? > > > Matt wrote: > > > > > The major problem that has made kayakers unwelcome in the San Juans was > not > > guerrilla camping. Campsites were relatively plentiful (at least until the > > Water Trails organization sold them down the river). The problem is the > fact > > that most of the beaches in the San Juans are really the public's property > > (usually to the high tide line). The owners of the uplands have always > > treated the beaches as though they owned them. .... > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A true guerrilla camper would not be advertising the technique (or their favorite camping spots). I couldn't believe that Ralph wrote about it in his book. This is roughly equivalent of writing an article in the newspaper describing your secret (but illegal) fishing hole. Not only will hundreds of fishermen descend on it and ruin the fishing but the game warden will be there waiting to arrest them to teach them a lesson. Best sometimes to just keep your mouth shut and your pen holstered. A kayaker in real need will figure out what they need to do. We don't need to encourage new paddlers to break the law by describing how it is done and romanticizing it. The major problem that has made kayakers unwelcome in the San Juans was not guerrilla camping. Campsites were relatively plentiful (at least until the Water Trails organization sold them down the river). The problem is the fact that most of the beaches in the San Juans are really the public's property (usually to the high tide line). The owners of the uplands have always treated the beaches as though they owned them. They could keep terrestrial tourists off them by limiting access and by putting pressure on their neighbors to do the same. So to prevent an invasion from the sea (and more kayakers taking a stroll down that public beach in front of their house when they can't legally just go get the shotgun and fire a few warning shots over their "No trespassing" signs and the kayakers beyond them) they must devise more sinister methods. They have sought to put their "property" out of reach of most kayakers, just like they did with earthbound tourists, by organizing to limit a kayaker's access to the water anywhere on "their" islands. They have been quite successful at this and now every access point I used to use from the ferry has been closed. This is too bad because kayakers mostly need to now take their cars on the ferry to get access to the water. Matt Broze (who tries very hard not to be a guerrilla kayak camper but realizes that on occasion there is not really any other sane choice) http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt: Could you expoind a bit more on what happened with Water Trails? How did the campsites get sold down the river? Matt wrote: > > The major problem that has made kayakers unwelcome in the San Juans was not > guerrilla camping. Campsites were relatively plentiful (at least until the > Water Trails organization sold them down the river). The problem is the fact > that most of the beaches in the San Juans are really the public's property > (usually to the high tide line). The owners of the uplands have always > treated the beaches as though they owned them. .... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/17/00 5:44:23 AM !!!First Boot!!!, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: << Almost every watertrail site existed before in some form so essentially what the Watertrails organization did was post some signs and claim them as their own and then advertised ("sold") them to a nationwide audience. >> This is part of the backlash of Ecotourism promotion. Increased usage and additional rules (restrictions). Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>OK - here's a virtual bucket of cold salt water from Alaska >on the subject. (that oughta cool off those keyboards!<grin>) >It's clear that there are widely divergent views held >by different parties and there are probably more variables >involved than any of us would want to try to think about. >I vote to drop this line of discussion and >move on to more productive avenues.... >Dave Seng >Juneau, Alaska So far I really did not see much that was not interesting to read about this subject. Especially the views of the (problems of) landowners at PaddleWise have given me more and better ideas about how to handle situations when I have to camp illegally. And camping, and the possibility to do it, is a very important aspect of the paddlesport, I think. So concerns about how to deal with situations that force(!) you to camp illegally are really valid: when you cannot camp (anymore) in a certain area, it could mean that you will have to give up paddling there? And it is an aspect that could be spoiled for you due to the behavior of others! I know a lot of people (some even good friends...) that have a very 'romantic' approach to camping illegaly, and do not (want to?) realize what harm they could do with this behaviour. For those people this kind of discussion could make them realize that their behaviour is problematic? BTW. When camping illegally in the Netherlands, if a policeman would wake you with a gun in his hand, it sure will be him that would be fired! Dirk Barends the Netherlands *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stay tuned (for a while. . . ) Mark > I think such a compendium would be expanded by including some anecdotal > deliberation on the consequences of public access. Stories which provide a > discussion of only what the law is, but the experiences of persons who > attempt to use access. > From: Sailboat Restorations, Inc. <sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net> > > BTW, I have been thinking for years of working on a compendium of laws > > relating to public access to waterways. It would be written for for the > > non-lawyer (ie, the paddler, rower, sailor, swimmer, etc). I'd welcome > any > > thoughts you guys might have about the usefulness of such a book. . . > > > > Mark Lane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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