Even more irritating than ads showing people being "unsafe" are the SUV and 4-wheeler ads showing their vehicles destroying the environment - they always drive through a creek at a high rate of speed. This is ILLEGAL due to the sediment stirring up and choking the stream. In my mind, there is nothing worse than romanticizing such destruction and encouraging customers to attempt such things! Also, on the PFD debate, I would like to mention the affect on your checkbook. Last weekend my paddle buddies went for a short sunset paddle near the campsite in calm conditions on a small lake. The lake patrol approached them and ask to see their flotation devices - having none on or in the boat, each was fined $75 ! It became dark during this exchange, so the patrol said he would escort them safely back to the campground. Apparently, during the escort, the patrol speeds off to chase a motor boat, leaving them vulnerable! They had planned to return before dark, but not now. So they paddled alone to camp and the patrol eventually found them to finish the ticket writing. $75 and harrassment is another good reason to wear/carry a PFD! Tim Boat'n in the Ozarks *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
NEWTOT_at_mail.modot.state.mo.us wrote: Even more irritating than ads showing people being "unsafe" are the SUV and 4-wheeler ads showing their vehicles destroying the environment - they always drive through a creek at a high rate of speed. This is ILLEGAL due to the sediment stirring up and choking the stream. In my mind, there is nothing worse than romanticizing such destruction and encouraging customers to attempt such things! Tim Boat'n in the Ozarks => We don't have to go as far as SUVs to witness destructive behavior. Here's a (positive) excerpt from "A Primer for Folding Kayak Builders". The text describes first that one of the original European white water greats, Franz von Alber, was indeed deservedly considered thus (no sissy paddler this guy) and secondly how careful he was of his paddling environment: -QUOTE- ... E. Wallecek, who was himself a fearless white water paddler, in one of his accounts mentions that Alber Franzl [Bavarian way of turning surname and given name around] was not shy of taking high risks if there was an exhilarating run at hand. He entered the Salzachöfen [the most difficult passage at that time] at a time of an unusually high water level and found himself turned upside down nine times before the exit. Each time he brought his kayak back onto an even keel and brought the run to a successful conclusion, mightily impressed, but under his own power. ... I first came face-to-face with Franz von Alber in 1953. We agreed on a meeting on the river Möll. I was completely fascinated by his Kayak: The deck was white, set off against the burgundy hull by a deep blue detail stripe along the seam. The stem ends were equipped with small wooden balls (Herbert Slanar’s hallmark, as I was to find out later), just as the Greenland kayaks had been with equipped with similar devices made from walrus tusk. I was fascinated also by the way in which Franz von Alber handled his boat. I am not merely referring to the fact that he meticulously chose the softest grass area on the rocky river bank, but to the way in which he melded into a single entity with the boat, once he had wriggled into the tiny manhole and had snapped his hips into position beneath the tight fitting carlings on either side. The form of his sinewy, muscular torso flowed smoothly into the shape of the lean kayak. Calm paddle stroke guided the boat past rocks, braced it effortlessly over smaller waves and nonchalantly shouldered the foamy crowns of larger standing waves. I was speechless: I had never before met a fifty year old like this! I was to be amazed yet again by his touring speed after the [wild] Möll had released us into the [calmer] Drau. [Mr. Mayr, the author of the German original text, to whom the first person singular refers in the excerpt above, recently referred to this memory in a conversation we had and again reiterated how Franz von Alber never allowed his boat to touch the ground or shore while entering or exiting and certainly never when under way. It was not that he was afraid for his boat, but that this was just the right way to conduct oneself on the river.] -UNQUOTE- Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com htp://www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> $75 and harrassment is another good reason to wear/carry a PFD! > Good reason? IMHO, the enforcement of "victimless-crime laws" is patently harassment; one's only moral obligation is to resist prudently so as not to get caught. Moreover, whatever the merits of PFDs, forbidding pictures of people without them goes MUCH too far. I believe that magazines should depict things as they are, not function as vehicles for puritans, moralizers, and sanctimonious "role models." People should wear a PFD when they think it protects them, not to be role models. Wearing one should be a considered choice, not a Pavlovian response to modeled behavior. . .or fear of police dogs. Having thus expostulated, I almost always wear a PFD; but, like Charles Barkley, I sure as hell am no role model. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know I'm supposed to be the "big guy" expert, but I'm stumped on this one: Does anyone have any idea where it's possible to get a wet suit made in Malden Mills "fuzzy rubber" in plus sizes -- like, say, 2x or 3x? Or for that matter, maybe a 2 or 3 mil neoprene in those sizes? I know that NRS has a "Grizzly" farmer john in those sizes, but it fits neither my form nor the function that I want it for. There doesn't seem to be any other lightweight wet suit available at a reasonable price in the paddlesports area -- but I'm wondering if perhaps in other watersports areas, such as diving, windsurfing, or even (shudder!) jetskiing might have something that would do the job. Anyone got any ideas? While I'm on the subject, a doofus question: why are most wet suits black? The visibility is lousy -- and the black is hot, especially in the sun. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/6/00 9:18:37 PM, boydwe_at_dmci.net writes: << I know I'm supposed to be the "big guy" expert, but I'm stumped on this one: Does anyone have any idea where it's possible to get a wet suit made in Malden Mills "fuzzy rubber" in plus sizes -- like, say, 2x or 3x? Or for that matter, maybe a 2 or 3 mil neoprene in those sizes? I know that NRS has a "Grizzly" farmer john in those sizes, but it fits neither my form nor the function that I want it for. >> Try Rapidstyle.com. Dana (Donna) will make you anything you need. I can vouch for the comfort of her fuzzy rubber tops. I'm VERY tempted to get her to make me something that will be snug on my legs and still go around the larger, upper parts of me. She does really good work. Go check her web site. <<While I'm on the subject, a doofus question: why are most wet suits black? The visibility is lousy -- and the black is hot, especially in the sun. >> My guess, neoprene is made from rubber, processed rubber is black, it is cheaper to not bleach and color it than to play with colors. I like the diversity of color of the fuzzy rubber but it does cost. Joan Spinner Still in fashionable black when the water requires more than just my shorts and t-shirt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com> > <<While I'm on the subject, a doofus question: why are most wet suits black? > The visibility is lousy -- and the black is hot, especially in the sun. >> > My guess, neoprene is made from rubber, processed rubber is black, it is > cheaper to not bleach and color it than to play with colors. I like the > diversity of color of the fuzzy rubber but it does cost. I used to have a piece of neoprene that was white with bright nylon on either side. It was the softest, cushiest, most flexible neoprene I've ever seen. I wish I could get paddling gear made out of it. The nylon should protect it from UV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:09:22, Wes Boyd wrote: > >While I'm on the subject, a doofus question: why are most wet suits >black? The visibility is lousy -- and the black is hot, especially >in the sun. > >-- Wes My NRS shorty (little jane) has fashionable purple panels on the sides, so I suppose they can be made in different colors. My full length NRS Farmer Jane Ultra has a purple panel on the front. Not a "doofus" question at all, in my opinion. About the big person's wetsuit... I've seen a number of board surfers here of well... ample girth, and they look quite spiffy in their nicely fitting wetsuits. Most surf wetsuits seem to have full length sleeves though, which could be really uncomfortable while paddling lond distances without getting wet. I'll ask my friends who run the local surf shop about sizes and sleeveless possibilities. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess you'll have to explain what isn't suitable about the NRS Grizzly sizes for me to have a recommendation. NRS also has XXL (non-Grizzly) in HydroSkin... KeS > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Wes Boyd > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 17:09 > To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] Oversized wet suits > > > I know I'm supposed to be the "big guy" expert, but I'm stumped on this one: > > Does anyone have any idea where it's possible to get a wet suit made in > Malden Mills "fuzzy rubber" in plus sizes -- like, say, 2x or 3x? Or for > that matter, maybe a 2 or 3 mil neoprene in those sizes? I know that NRS > has a "Grizzly" farmer john in those sizes, but it fits neither my form nor > the function that I want it for. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Wes, I do not know about the Fuzzy Rubber but you can get custom wetsuits made at most Scuba Shops. I have a custom made two piece "Henderson" Polartec Suit. The bottom part is a Farmer John Style, i.e long legs w/ stirrups bib to the upper chest and back and no sleeves. The top half is like a long sleeve Shorty Wetsuit, i.e. legs are mid-thigh. I have used it both paddling and diving. I have heard it said the Polartec (spandex like outer shell - fleece lining) is roughly the equivalent of 2mm-3mm neoprene. However it is a lot more comfortable and flexible and odor immune. I figure when I wear both layers I have at least 3mm. At the time I purchased mine I also got a Polartec Hood and a Neoprene Vest. Good Luck, Hal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:19 PM 9/7/00 +0200, Hal Christiansen wrote: >I do not know about the Fuzzy Rubber but you can get custom wetsuits made >at most Scuba Shops. I've learned a lot this morning about wetsuits -- especially custom sized ones. Mainly, I've learned, as I suspected, that paddlesports specific companies aren't real strong on reasonably priced custom sizes, in wetsuits or other paddlewear. I did get a response, I think from a similar question that I posed on USENET, and got quite a list of custom diving wetsuit URLs: http://www.uswetsuits.com/polartec_series.htm http://www.californiawaves.com/ http://www.customsplus.com/ http://www.oceanray.com/ http://www.kettenhofenwetsuits.com/ http://www.liquidfit.com/suits.htm http://wetwear.com/ Looking over the various sites, I was particularly impressed with the "Liquidfit" site. My informant also recommended them. I called them up and talked to the owner. It's a little operation, and they do nothing but custom designed wetsuits. The woman who owns the business is an oversize herself, and is very sensitive to custom fit issues. Prices seem real reasonable in comparison to other places. She doesn't know from kayaking, though -- she's a diver. I know that the thickness of the material is one of the differences we're looking for between a diving suit and kayaking suit, but are there other issues? I mean, if I'm going to have a custom wetsuit, I might as well have it custom made for purpose, as well as fit. Your ideas, please. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd writes: > > <snip> > between a diving suit and kayaking suit, but are there other issues? I > mean, if I'm going to have a custom wetsuit, I might as well have it custom > made for purpose, as well as fit. I'll go ahead and state the obvious Either a front zip or a relief zipper so you don't have to shed all/most of your suit. Flexibility for paddling. Usually Farmer Johns are the wetsuit of choice here. For added protection I have a 2 piece suit. A farmer john (3mm) and an optional jacket (that fits on the bottom as shorts). When worn together its 3-6-3. Its great for surf kayaking the Oregon Coast 8) For reference http://www.sea-quest.com/pages/wet/ws_ctwo.html If I was getting one custom made I'd have another optional top that was short sleeved. OTOH, a farmer john plus a fuzzy rubber top may be just the thing. I do miss having a relief zipper in mine though. -- Glen Acord snark_at_tulgey.org www.tulgey.org/~snark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Wes Boyd" <boydwe_at_dmci.net> > > She doesn't know from kayaking, though -- she's a diver. I know that the > thickness of the material is one of the differences we're looking for > between a diving suit and kayaking suit, but are there other issues? I > mean, if I'm going to have a custom wetsuit, I might as well have it custom > made for purpose, as well as fit. > > Your ideas, please. It's easy to get a zipper that goes all the way up, but you need one that goes all the way down! I hate going through contortions when I need to 1. I think that wetsuits are designed by jealous women who want to force us to strip and sit! <g> Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use a Henderson Polartec for scuba diving and IMHO, it's not as warm as 2mm neoprene but it's got no buoyancy, a plus for diving. If it's cold (less than 80F) I use a 2mm neoprene vest over the Polartec, which is very comfortable and significantly improves the insulating properties of the Polartec. - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally I have never used a plain Neoprene Wetsuit of any thickness. When diving, if the water is cold I wear a dry suit. If it isn't I wear the various Polartec layers For myself the two piece suit (i.e. two layers of torso protection) can start to get warm in mid to upper 70 degree water if I am working at all. It is just fine during deco stops. I have used the Polartec in several of the Cave Systems in Florida. It actually works well for me there. The water temps are around 70 with a high flow but then I'm working a little := ) I find I rarely use the neo vest, i.e. third torso layer. For paddling I have only worn the top, or shorty so far. It can get a little warm but I unzip it. I have been comfortable for a few hours doing rescue practice in water around the low 50's. Other than that I have no experience with this type of apparel. .Hal -----Original Message----- From: Bob Denton [SMTP:BDenton_at_aquagulf.com] Sent: den 7 september 2000 18:39 To: 'hal_at_mbox305.swipnet.se'; 'Wes Boyd'; 'paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Oversized wet suits I use a Henderson Polartec for scuba diving and IMHO, it's not as warm as 2mm neoprene but it's got no buoyancy, a plus for diving. If it's cold (less than 80F) I use a 2mm neoprene vest over the Polartec, which is very comfortable and significantly improves the insulating properties of the Polartec. - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually there is a significant difference...pressure. At the annual dive show, one of the neoprene manufacturers had a display of samples of various brands of neoprene in a pressure chamber. As the pressure was increased to 3 atmospheres, equivalent to 100 feet (an average depth) the neoprene samples collapsed, some to a 10th or less of their original thickness. The best neoprene designed for scuba has a much higher percentage of rubber then neoprene made for surface sports. Consequently, it tends to be more expensive. The best neoprene tends to be made by Yamato or Rubatex. There are a number of others. You may consider the suits that include additives like titanium, which reflect heat and produce more warmth from thinner materials. You can also get neoprene with kevlar instead of nylon covering for hard wear areas, not an issue with divers. Another issue is that divers don't sit a lot, unless they blew it... cya >>> She doesn't know from kayaking, though -- she's a diver. I know that the thickness of the material is one of the differences we're looking for between a diving suit and kayaking suit, but are there other issues? I mean, if I'm going to have a custom wetsuit, I might as well have it custom made for purpose, as well as fit. Your ideas, please. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Neoprene is made by taking the liquid neoprene and expanding it with N2, then the resulting blocks are cut into thin sheets and then run through a laminating machine where adhesive is applied to the sheets and fabric is rolled onto the foam and cured with heat. I assume they could leave out the carbon black but it would result in a less UV robust product. I doubt the nylon is anywhere near 100% UV proof. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard writes: "the enforcement of "victimless-crime laws" is patently harassment;" I don't think a law requiring a PFD to be worn is necessarily victimless. The victims of a breach may be the water police and rescue personnel who have to pull bodies from the water. Post traumatic stress among rescuers is real. I recall that non-PFD boaters are disproportionately represented in boating fatality statistics. Wearing a PFD should be a considered choice, but a community has a collective right to say you must choose to wear one, via its laws. I don't mind seat-belt laws, or vehicle safety standards. What's the difference here? Regards, Peter Treby 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter writes: > Wearing a PFD should be a considered choice, but a community has a > collective right to say you must choose to wear one, via its laws. I don't > mind seat-belt laws, or vehicle safety standards. What's the difference > here? No difference between belt laws and PFD laws. The difference is that we disagree as to whether commumities have collective rights over such properly personal decisions. I reject that premise, whether for seat belts, motor cycle helmets, or PFDs. The irony is that refusal to comply, while heroic, can be suicidal under the wrong circumstances. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick writes: >For example, >last year, the teenage daughter of a friend of mine and her boyfriend went >to one of the Sounds in North Carolina to visit his uncle for the weekend. >The uncle had a 2 person kayak that he "fiddled" with. The two teens took >it out for a ride. > >Tide came in - water turned rough - they were over a mile from shore - not >even a PFD in the boat (in fact, they carried nothing but two paddles). They >capsized, and had no clue how to get back in. Eventually, he drowned (took >almost a week to find his body). She survived. She managed to get to a >duck blind and stayed there for two days until she was rescued. My wife >and I prayed with her parents for three days, not knowing if she were dead >or alive. > >Here it comes...... I SURE WISH A MARINE SAFETY OFFICER HAD OF SEMI >"HARRASSED" THEM AND ESCORTED THEM BACK TO SHORE OR SCARED THEM TO THE POINT >THAT THEY WENT BACK THEMSELVES. >From my point of view (especially having received the citation for operating without a PFD, this is *exactly* the issue! Rather than issue the citation, the officer could have "harassed" us back to shore (all of 40 ft. distant) and told us not to put back on until we were in compliance with the law. Ignoring for the moment that the law exists in the first place, it is still possible for safety officers to act in the spirit of the law without bringing it's full force to bear in every occasion. To issue citations with associated fines and court appearances for floating within spitting distance of shore without PFDs onboard on a small, calm lake is ridiculous. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just for the record, there's at least one person out here who finds this absolutely sound reasoning. Nicely put, Rick. (I, too, always wear my PFD, but I dislike the practice of some people of prosteletizing and preaching on the subject.) Mark > IMHO, the enforcement of "victimless-crime laws" is patently harassment; > one's only moral obligation is to resist prudently so as not to get caught. > Moreover, whatever the merits of PFDs, forbidding pictures of people without > them goes MUCH too far. I believe that magazines should depict things as > they are, not function as vehicles for puritans, moralizers, and > sanctimonious "role models." > > People should wear a PFD when they think it protects them, not to be role > models. Wearing one should be a considered choice, not a Pavlovian response > to modeled behavior. . .or fear of police dogs. > > Having thus expostulated, I almost always wear a PFD; but, like Charles > Barkley, I sure as hell am no role model. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As it happens, I was one of the two individuals who received citations in this particular incident. If I've ever seen harassment, this was it. In this situation, we were floating in the lake approximately 40 ft. from short and about 200 ft down the lakeshore, in water as calm and smooth as glass, simply enjoying the setting sun. Then from out of nowhere, the water patrol zooms up, first berates us for paddling after dark, and then proceeds to issue citations for operating without PFDs. Had we been swimming at this exact location, we would probably have been sent back to the so-called "swimming area", but would not have been fined. I deeply resent the fact that state government (and this officer in particular) apparently believes I am not fit to make judgements concerning my own welfare. I am a fairly experienced whitewater and touring paddler, and am well aware of my own limits. Sitting quietly on a still lake at sunset falls well within my abilities, I believe. While I recognize that my experience was not known to this officer, it was also painfully apparent that we were in no danger. Thus, the appropriate response (at least in my opinion) would have been to instruct us to get off the water immediately and not to put back on until we were able to comply with the law. At present, it is my intention to pay the fine, rig my boat for night paddling and buy a crappy little PFD that I can stick in one of my hatches. Maybe. It might just be my current frame of mind, but I agree with what Richard says below. Especially the part about Charles Barkley... -------------- Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:48:18 -0500 From: "Richard Kemmer" <rkemmer_at_home.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety, Ads, & PFDs > $75 and harrassment is another good reason to wear/carry a PFD! > Good reason? IMHO, the enforcement of "victimless-crime laws" is patently harassment; one's only moral obligation is to resist prudently so as not to get caught. Moreover, whatever the merits of PFDs, forbidding pictures of people without them goes MUCH too far. I believe that magazines should depict things as they are, not function as vehicles for puritans, moralizers, and sanctimonious "role models." People should wear a PFD when they think it protects them, not to be role models. Wearing one should be a considered choice, not a Pavlovian response to modeled behavior. . .or fear of police dogs. Having thus expostulated, I almost always wear a PFD; but, like Charles Barkley, I sure as hell am no role model. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> No difference between belt laws and PFD laws. The difference is that we > disagree as to whether commumities have collective rights over such properly > personal decisions. I reject that premise, whether for seat belts, motor > cycle helmets, or PFDs. The irony is that refusal to comply, while heroic, > can be suicidal under the wrong circumstances. > Rick I mostly agree, but I do think it's a bit more complex. I don't like people coming up to me and trying to tell me how I ought to conduct myself in connection with my recreational activities. Just bugs me. Being a bit testy at times, I'm likely to give them an earful. But I do recognize the difference in a collective social decision adopted in the form of legislation, and a governmental body charged with enforcing that legislation, and I do think there has to be *some* right in the "body politic" to enact laws that do govern these "personal decisions." The primary reason is that the "suicidal" (or worse, almost suicidal) results *can* become a large burden on society (health costs, judicial resources, supporting families of victims, etc.). This is the argument usually advanced in the motorcycle helmet debate, and I've yet to hear a really sound rebuttal. I'm very much a libertarian on these things (and most others), and I cherish my personal freedom. But I think it is foolish of us not to recognize that there is a valid basis for a contrary view -- if for no other reason, to work on a rebuttal to that view. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< whatever the merits of PFDs, forbidding pictures of people without them goes MUCH too far. I believe that magazines should depict things as they are, not function as vehicles for puritans, moralizers, and sanctimonious "role models.">> I couldn't disagree more. The wording of Richard's note seems, to me, to be moralizing and puritanical. I won't go so far as to say it's "sanctimonious", but some people might. Societies are built on systems of values, standards, and morals. There should be some flexibility in all of those - but That flexibility, that freedom, comes from an ability to accept most of the society's standards, most of the time. People who get their kicks from embracing anarchy and a lack of any standard of safe behavior risk losing the very freedom they claim to value. Conversely, people who know the dangers really do have an obligation to act as role models for those who are ignorant. In my opinion ignorance *can* occasionally be a valid excuse for stupid and/or dangerous behavior. An adolescent insistence that everyone else adhere to one's own uninformed view of acceptable behavior is not such an excuse. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<we disagree as to whether commumities have collective rights over such properly personal decisions. I reject that premise, whether for seat belts, motor cycle helmets, or PFDs. >> The problem with this argument, and it's a very big problem, is that once an accident or injury occurs due to someone's wilfully careless behavior, the injured person immediately (and rightfully) expects someone else to come to his/her rescue - and in the case of helmetless motorcycle riders (for example), to foot the bill too. Several studies have shown that the majority of helmetless injuries to motorcycle riders occur to people who have no insurance. But I can tell you from personal experience that they want at least as much care as anyone else. Does this detract from care available to anyone else? You bet it does. Now go ahead guys and gals - tell me that having insurance should be voluntary. I won't buy that one either. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > The problem with this argument, and it's a very big problem, is that once an > accident or injury occurs due to someone's wilfully careless behavior, the > injured person immediately (and rightfully) expects someone else to come to > his/her rescue I had attempted to factor out the cost to others in my hypothetical. Maybe that's just not possible, in a real world sense. But I was trying to get to the bottom of the question. Someone said that there are people who just need to be protected from themselves. I disagree that this is a legitimate *government* (as opposed to family, insurance company, whatever) interest. So I asked: what if my risky behavior could not result in any financial consequences to *anyone* else? Suppose: I kayak without a PFD, but I pay a motor yacht with full rescue crew and gear to stay within 100 yards of me. I have no dependents. I have plenty of money to pay for any consequence of my conduct. Does the government then have the right to tell me that I can't do something because *I might injurre or kill myself*? To me, that's just not a legitimate role of government. I acknowledged in an earlier post -- I mentioned the motorcycle helmet debate -- that I know of no good argument against the "social cost rationale" for regulating risky behavior. It's an issue, and a serious one, IMO. The only argument I know of to counter it -- and I think it needs to be taken very seriously -- is the "slippery slope" argument: once we let government control our behavior on the basis that it might end up imposing a social cost, then almost anything is subject to regulation or restriction or elimination. Eating red meat is more riskyt than eating vegetables, no? Kayaking may just be too risky even to be allowed at all. Motorcycles should just be banned (if you think this is a silly point, ask yourself: when was the last time you saw one of those three-wheel ORV things? ). Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. To me, a safe but sanitized society is not what I want. Hell, I didn't even like it when Giuliani (Mayor of NYC) "cleaned up" Times Square. I never indulged the seediness of the place, but somehow I took comfort in it being there, just knowing that in this country people have the freedom to be seedy if they like. But I digress. Again: is the issue *just* one of social costs? Is that really the only valid basis for regulating risky conduct? Or is there a "higher" interest, residing with the government, in "protecting people from their own stupidity"? That's the question I was posing, so as to try to get to the real heart of this. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard said.... <<we disagree as to whether commumities have collective rights over such properly personal decisions. I reject that premise, whether for seat belts, motor cycle helmets, or PFDs. >> Bill said.... |The problem with this argument, and it's a very big problem, is that once an |accident or injury occurs due to someone's wilfully careless behavior, the |injured person immediately (and rightfully) expects someone else to come to |his/her rescue - and in the case of helmetless motorcycle riders (for |example), to foot the bill too. Several studies have shown that the majority |of helmetless injuries to motorcycle riders occur to people who have no |insurance. But I can tell you from personal experience that they want at |least as much care as anyone else. There have also been studies that show that the states that DO NOT have motorcycle helmet laws have less accidents than the states that do. The states that had the lower accident rates had the highest number of riders and miles driven without helmet laws. The problem with the collective rights argument is when does The Collective stop intruding into the individuals life? Since The Collective pays for the health care costs of people who don't have health insurance, and even with health insurance, The Collective still pays via premiums, does The Collective still have the right to tell the Individual to stop a behavior? If an Individual is partaking in risking sexual behavior and contracts an STD should The Collective pay for the person's health care? Why should The Collective pay for this when the Individual KNEW what they were doing was dangerous? Even if the Individual has insurance The Collective will pay in higher rates. What if our Risking Individual contracts HIV or full blown AIDS. Should The Collective refuse to help pay for the very expensive cost of the healthcare for our Risky Sick Individual? And of course if the Collective DOES pay for our Risky Sick Individual, does that also mean that The Collective can pass and enforce laws to make sure that no more Individual's partake in risking behavour? Now that would be Harassment..... Hmmmm? Food for Thought..... Stir Stir Stir.... 8-) DanDCook McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: >The only argument I know of to counter it -- and I think it needs to > be taken very seriously -- is the "slippery slope" argument: once we let > government control our behavior on the basis that it might end up imposing a > social cost, then almost anything is subject to regulation or restriction or > elimination. Eating red meat is more riskyt than eating vegetables, no? > Kayaking may just be too risky even to be allowed at all. Mark, I agree with your post 100%. We have only to look at the Guiliani-imposed police state, the "gang rape" of the tobacco companies, and the havoc wrought by the nefarious "War on Drugs" to see where the "social-cost" argument leads. Eventually, kayaking will be forbidden as too risky and equipment suppliers regulated and then fined because they "should have known" their products could cause deaths. Those who think this could never happen should consider that regulations almost always increase in number and harshness; they are seldom relaxed. (This stems from the autocatalytic nature of systems development.) However, IMO there is little point in continuing this thread, because no one is convincing anyone else. You nailed the underlying disagreement with your statement about not wanting a sanitized society. The question is what relative value one puts on pesonal freedom versus order. If freedom is your highest value, you are willing to sacrifice order and take the consequences. If you value order, you will sacrifice individual freedom to the "good of society." You may respect, understand, and appreciate the opposing arguments, but you will dismiss them because you don't value the kind of society to which they lead. Whether one labels PFD enforcement "harassment" or "legitimate police enforcement" depends on much deeper values and assumptions that ultimately will carry us far off topic. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Kemmer wrote: >Mark, I agree with your post 100%. [snip brilliant commentary] And I with yours, Rick. Ahh. Now, why can't everyone be like us!? Now that would be Order With a Difference <g>. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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