First: Thanks for all the information on hull speed. Whenever I meet a kayakker with sensors on his hull and paddle, a laptop on his sprayskirt connected to various parts of his body and breathing through a machine on his deck, I know I am not watching someone who escaped the hospital and took his mechanic lungs with him. I just met someone trying out a new kayak. Just remember that your normal roll might be a problem with all this equipment. Seriously: I got data on my own boat and a lot of improvements on my test ideas. Thanks. Something else: Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity. sid -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:18 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough First: Thanks for all the information on hull speed. Whenever I meet a kayakker with sensors on his hull and paddle, a laptop on his sprayskirt connected to various parts of his body and breathing through a machine on his deck, I know I am not watching someone who escaped the hospital and took his mechanic lungs with him. I just met someone trying out a new kayak. Just remember that your normal roll might be a problem with all this equipment. Seriously: I got data on my own boat and a lot of improvements on my test ideas. Thanks. Something else: Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A good training trick for calm water or the pool is to have some on stand behind your boat and try and tip you over. The randomness of it really helps with a variety of braces and rolling to get back up once you miss a brace. The person behind the boat can really cause some chaos by rocking the boat up and down, back and forth, and twisting it from side to side. Another fun thing to practice is paddling as fast as you can and then rolling. I think many of us forget that when we capsize, we are often moving. More often than not, people practice rolling while "standing" still and set up before the capsize. The "damn, I going fast" roll offers a very interesting sensation and shows off one advantage of the sweep roll. Another party trick. Throw your paddle as far as you can, capsize and then "swim" to the paddle and roll up. This is actually somewhat useful as you learn how to properly orient your paddle while inverted. Swimming with the boat isn't as hard as it seems, and you can actually cover some distance this way. The way I check my paddle position (euro-style paddle) is to grab the paddle at the blade, feel for the power face, then slide it down to the setup position. Judging by shaft alone can often result in rolling with the paddle upside down. I've done this a few times and it is an odd experience. -Patrick At 3:20 PM -0800 3/12/01, SNStone wrote: >The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in >varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then >put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll >I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the >equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have >one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to >roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as >I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. > >When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity. > >sid > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<LARGE SNIPS . . .Deadlock! . . . LARGE SNIPS> Were you using a Euro paddle or a Greenland paddle? One of many advantages I noticed to Greenland paddles was the dramatically easier movability of the paddle through the water while you're upside down--just for occasions like yours. Tom Joyce ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels wrote: <biiiig snip> >Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling > roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. > By now I added this roll to my repertoire. > > What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the > sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have > non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other > solution? I agree the sculling roll is good to have, expecially if one can remember to use it (but, of course, that's what practice is for). But I believe that there's always that two to three (or more) seconds it would take to get the paddle into a decent setup position. One of the things I have taken pains to practice this off-season is taking lots of time for the setup. My favorite way of practicing this is to flip over on the move with the paddle in one hand, out of position. Then I have to take the time -- with eyes closed -- to position the paddle in my grip, get it up to the surface, tap the blade on the surface to confirm that it is flat, and then sweep & roll. Takes a while, but what the heck -- my hang time is over 40 seconds, so why worry? Don't think you have much time upside down? That's what practice is for. Bob (the eternal optimist) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels Blaauw wrote: >>>>Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution?<<<<<<<< Sid Stone" <SNStone_at_email.msn.com> answered: >>>>>>>>The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity.<<<<<<<< In this case a new technique is needed. however starting a skulling roll from the wrong side is also very difficult. I too discovered this problem when I first got a dry suit and didn't burp it well enough. Even when I burped the drysuit this would occasionally crop up and cause me to have to swim in the surf. Being the experimental type of learner and not liking to swim in big surf I was very motivated to come up with a solution. I put two PFD's on in a swimming pool and proceeded to try skulling myself into position to execute a roll but was not having much success getting myself sculled down to get to the otherside (and switching to rolling on the otherside would just reverse the problem as Niels also experienced). Later finding myself in the shallow end of the pool, I was forced to change what I was trying since the paddle couldn't go deep when skulling. Wow, it worked! Try this with two PFD's. Set up to roll with your most "quality" method. If you find yourself floating up on the wrong side for your roll use your already set up blade to take a stroke that brings the blade in a power stroke right across (under) the deck of your kayak. This will flop you over to floating up on the correct side for that roll. Next feather your blade and slice it back under your deck into the roll position for your best roll and do it. This a is quick and simple and has worked for me the one time since that floating up on the wrong side happened to me in the wild. I was overjoyed to come up with this method since the flopping back and forth trying to switch sides and finding myself in the same predicament was getting quite frustrating. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sid wrote: "The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions." I agree that the best practice for a roll is trying it in varying conditions, which is exactly what I was doing when I tried a roll at sea, in full outfit. However, in the pool there are only so many conditions you can create: No waves, no wind, no salt. That's why I opted for a different approach: to learn as many rolls as possible. In the end you find out that each of those rolls is not a trick that you perform like a robot, but that all the seperate moves from all the different rolls form a pool of moves that you can choose from at will. It's kind of like sitting on a floor and getting up: Each one of us has a hundred ways to do that. We all do it different, we all do it different each time. We don't think about how to do it, we just select a few moves from a library of thousands of moves, according to the floor we are sitting on, avoiding any aching muscles, headaches or obstacles and at the same time acting out our general feeling of the moment. That's what I wanted to reach in my rolling techniques: A complete freedom of movement under water. It worked for me: In my story, and last summer in many other occasions, I DID roll. Next time in the pool I should practice my wet exit, since I haven't made one in the last year. -----Original Message----- From: SNStone [mailto:SNStone_at_email.msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:21 AM To: Blaauw, Niels; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity. sid -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:18 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough First: Thanks for all the information on hull speed. Whenever I meet a kayakker with sensors on his hull and paddle, a laptop on his sprayskirt connected to various parts of his body and breathing through a machine on his deck, I know I am not watching someone who escaped the hospital and took his mechanic lungs with him. I just met someone trying out a new kayak. Just remember that your normal roll might be a problem with all this equipment. Seriously: I got data on my own boat and a lot of improvements on my test ideas. Thanks. Something else: Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
True, it is difficult to emulate varying conditions in a pool. However, you can practice with a dry suit in a pool. I have a friend who will practice with various types of gloves in a pool. I started doing this last winter since things feel different with gloves on. Although the combination of dry suit, pfd and gloves in a pool cannot fully replicate the same in the sea, I do believe you will get a better feel for executing a roll with all your equipment on. I would also like to second Bob Volin's recommendation to spend time getting set up. I have also been spending time this winter getting myself to relax with head under water to get set up before starting the roll. good luck, sid -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:42 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough Sid wrote: "The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions." I agree that the best practice for a roll is trying it in varying conditions, which is exactly what I was doing when I tried a roll at sea, in full outfit. However, in the pool there are only so many conditions you can create: No waves, no wind, no salt. That's why I opted for a different approach: to learn as many rolls as possible. In the end you find out that each of those rolls is not a trick that you perform like a robot, but that all the seperate moves from all the different rolls form a pool of moves that you can choose from at will. It's kind of like sitting on a floor and getting up: Each one of us has a hundred ways to do that. We all do it different, we all do it different each time. We don't think about how to do it, we just select a few moves from a library of thousands of moves, according to the floor we are sitting on, avoiding any aching muscles, headaches or obstacles and at the same time acting out our general feeling of the moment. That's what I wanted to reach in my rolling techniques: A complete freedom of movement under water. It worked for me: In my story, and last summer in many other occasions, I DID roll. Next time in the pool I should practice my wet exit, since I haven't made one in the last year. -----Original Message----- From: SNStone [mailto:SNStone_at_email.msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:21 AM To: Blaauw, Niels; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity. sid -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:18 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough First: Thanks for all the information on hull speed. Whenever I meet a kayakker with sensors on his hull and paddle, a laptop on his sprayskirt connected to various parts of his body and breathing through a machine on his deck, I know I am not watching someone who escaped the hospital and took his mechanic lungs with him. I just met someone trying out a new kayak. Just remember that your normal roll might be a problem with all this equipment. Seriously: I got data on my own boat and a lot of improvements on my test ideas. Thanks. Something else: Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The phenomonen of not going all the way down or floating part way up while wearing a dry suit is fairly common. The first time it happened to me I was really surprised, but found that I could do a sort of "reverse hip snap" and push myself back down so that I can get set up properly. I'm not really sure exactly what it is I do but it involves hip movement, much like you use coming up. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: SNStone <SNStone_at_email.msn.com> To: Blaauw, Niels <nblaauw_at_foxboro.com>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:47 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough > True, it is difficult to emulate varying conditions in a pool. However, you > can practice with a dry suit in a pool. I have a friend who will practice > with various types of gloves in a pool. I started doing this last winter > since things feel different with gloves on. Although the combination of dry > suit, pfd and gloves in a pool cannot fully replicate the same in the sea, I > do believe you will get a better feel for executing a roll with all your > equipment on. > > I would also like to second Bob Volin's recommendation to spend time getting > set up. I have also been spending time this winter getting myself to relax > with head under water to get set up before starting the roll. > > good luck, > sid > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:42 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough > > > Sid wrote: "The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute > a roll in > varying conditions." > > I agree that the best practice for a roll is trying it in varying > conditions, which is exactly what I was doing when I tried a roll at sea, in > full outfit. However, in the pool there are only so many conditions you can > create: No waves, no wind, no salt. That's why I opted for a different > approach: to learn as many rolls as possible. In the end you find out that > each of those rolls is not a trick that you perform like a robot, but that > all the seperate moves from all the different rolls form a pool of moves > that you can choose from at will. It's kind of like sitting on a floor and > getting up: Each one of us has a hundred ways to do that. We all do it > different, we all do it different each time. We don't think about how to do > it, we just select a few moves from a library of thousands of moves, > according to the floor we are sitting on, avoiding any aching muscles, > headaches or obstacles and at the same time acting out our general feeling > of the moment. That's what I wanted to reach in my rolling techniques: A > complete freedom of movement under water. It worked for me: In my story, and > last summer in many other occasions, I DID roll. Next time in the pool I > should practice my wet exit, since I haven't made one in the last year. > > -----Original Message----- > From: SNStone [mailto:SNStone_at_email.msn.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:21 AM > To: Blaauw, Niels; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough > > > The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in > varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then > put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll > I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the > equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have > one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to > roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as > I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. > > When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity. > > sid > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Blaauw, Niels > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:18 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough > > > First: Thanks for all the information on hull speed. Whenever I meet a > kayakker with sensors on his hull and paddle, a laptop on his sprayskirt > connected to various parts of his body and breathing through a machine on > his deck, I know I am not watching someone who escaped the hospital and took > his mechanic lungs with him. I just met someone trying out a new kayak. Just > remember that your normal roll might be a problem with all this equipment. > Seriously: I got data on my own boat and a lot of improvements on my test > ideas. Thanks. > > Something else: > > Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, > dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of > the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. > Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my > head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was > a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, > rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined > flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I > will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), > but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side > of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I > managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform > the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were > preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through > my hair when I finally rolled up. > Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling > roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. > By now I added this roll to my repertoire. > > What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the > sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have > non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other > solution? > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another good pool practice is to load your deck up with all the various geegaws that you use under normal paddling conditions -- things like map cases, water bottles, cameras etc. We tend to practice with pretty stripped down boats, a very unpleasant surprise to roll out and about somewhere and discover your sunglasses gone, your chart floating aware, a beaver swimming off with your camera and water bottle... -Patrick At 5:47 AM -0800 3/13/01, SNStone wrote: >True, it is difficult to emulate varying conditions in a pool. However, you >can practice with a dry suit in a pool. I have a friend who will practice >with various types of gloves in a pool. I started doing this last winter >since things feel different with gloves on. Although the combination of dry >suit, pfd and gloves in a pool cannot fully replicate the same in the sea, I >do believe you will get a better feel for executing a roll with all your >equipment on. [SNIP] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: >>> If you find yourself floating up on the wrong side for your roll use your already set up blade to take a stroke that brings the blade in a power stroke right across (under) the deck of your kayak. This will flop you over to floating up on the correct side for that roll. Next feather your blade and slice it back under your deck into the roll position for your best roll and do it. <<< Seems that Matt has experienced the same problem, and came up with a solution that is a variation on the theme: Drawing and feathering is another way of sculling. Nice: Another move to practice! In answer to Brian: Things like deflating your drytop or drysuit don't sound very practical while hanging upside down, although it might be good practice to do it before getting into a kayak. A disadvantage might be that you loose insulation by pumping out air, and that during the trip air might sip in: My normal drytop isn't THAT dry. As for Toms question to what kind of paddle I am using: It is a Euro paddle, I never tried a greenland paddle. You say you found many advantages apart from the manouvrability under water: Can you tell me the other advantages? It might be time for a new paddle! -----Original Message----- From: Matt Broze [mailto:mkayaks_at_oz.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:46 AM To: PaddleWise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] 5 rolls is not enough Niels Blaauw wrote: >>>>Last winter I managed to teach myself the sweep roll, C-to-C, screw-roll, dry-sigarette-roll, broken-paddle-roll and handroll, all on both sides of the boat, all with a dry and a swamped boat, all with and without a PFD. Sounds solid, doesn't it? So on my first trip at sea, I decided to cool my head with my most solid roll on my most solid side... I managed, but it was a close call. What happened? I lined my paddle on the left side of my boat, rolled, but didn't manage to make the first half, due to the combined flotation of my drytop and PFD in the salt water. No problem, I thought, I will roll on the other side. I brought the paddle to that side (right side), but that gave enough force to push my body under water and to the left side of the boat. Deadlock! In the end, by moving very slow and carefully, I managed to get my body and paddle on the same side of the boat and perform the roll. By then my companions had noticed I had some trouble and were preparing an eskimo-rescue. I felt the bow of one of their boats go through my hair when I finally rolled up. Weeks later I concluded that the only way out of this problem is a sculling roll, that you can start in any position, upside down or laying on any side. By now I added this roll to my repertoire. What surprises me is that very few people around me have mastered the sculling roll and nobody regards it as an important technique. Do they have non-floating PFD's, bricks in their head, just not a clue, or some other solution?<<<<<<<< Sid Stone" <SNStone_at_email.msn.com> answered: >>>>>>>>The issue is not the number of rolls, but the ability to execute a roll in varying conditions. You learned and practiced in one environment and then put it to the test in another environment. Rather than learning another roll I woudl focus on practicing in more difficult conditions wearing the equipment you would use in a real paddling situation. You must also have one roll that you are totally confident will work. I initially learned to roll using an extended paddle (pawlatta) roll. I periodically practice it as I know I can get back up. It's my insurance policy. When it comes to rolling, quality over quantity.<<<<<<<< In this case a new technique is needed. however starting a skulling roll from the wrong side is also very difficult. I too discovered this problem when I first got a dry suit and didn't burp it well enough. Even when I burped the drysuit this would occasionally crop up and cause me to have to swim in the surf. Being the experimental type of learner and not liking to swim in big surf I was very motivated to come up with a solution. I put two PFD's on in a swimming pool and proceeded to try skulling myself into position to execute a roll but was not having much success getting myself sculled down to get to the otherside (and switching to rolling on the otherside would just reverse the problem as Niels also experienced). Later finding myself in the shallow end of the pool, I was forced to change what I was trying since the paddle couldn't go deep when skulling. Wow, it worked! Try this with two PFD's. Set up to roll with your most "quality" method. If you find yourself floating up on the wrong side for your roll use your already set up blade to take a stroke that brings the blade in a power stroke right across (under) the deck of your kayak. This will flop you over to floating up on the correct side for that roll. Next feather your blade and slice it back under your deck into the roll position for your best roll and do it. This a is quick and simple and has worked for me the one time since that floating up on the wrong side happened to me in the wild. I was overjoyed to come up with this method since the flopping back and forth trying to switch sides and finding myself in the same predicament was getting quite frustrating. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Blaauw, Niels" <nblaauw_at_foxboro.com> > In answer to Brian: Things like deflating your drytop or drysuit don't sound > very practical while hanging upside down, although it might be good practice > to do it before getting into a kayak. A disadvantage might be that you loose > insulation by pumping out air, and that during the trip air might sip in: My > normal drytop isn't THAT dry. Burping (i.e. bleeding the air out of) a drytop at the start of a paddle is a good idea. Burping a drysuit should be considered mandatory! Don't worry about the loss of insulation - lots of loose air doesn't insulate anyway. The big risk with the drysuit not burped is finding yourself in the water with your suit's legs full of air and the top empty. You'll float head down in the water. That's one of the reasons scuba divers in drysuits wear ankle weights. Since paddlers don't wear ankle weights - burp the suit. Mike (PS I've been wondering if a grab-the-ankles somersault would allow a drysuited paddler to correct an inflated-leg inversion. One of these days I'll test the theory - with someone standing by in case it doesn't work!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey Niels and Sid, Could you guys please <snip> the replied text from each others' posts before replying to Paddlewise, unless it's really, really relevant! It's making the digest version scroll awfully fast, and it's just wasted information for the folks getting individual posts. Just a friendly request from a fellow list-member (and a friendly warning that list-Mom is probably going to slap your hand if you don't!) Thanks, Shawn Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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