merijn wijnen wrote: Hi all, I was really amazed about the amount of reactions on my mail about selfbailers (actually, I really new that word, but lost it somewhere in the mess under my skull). The most interesting thing about the reactions is, that most people say it won't work on a kayak. <snip> ------- I already have a selfbailer...its me! Joking aside, I think the CG requires a bailer on most small vessels, including kayaks. I wonder if those selfbailers you highlighted qualify. I'd like one. Heck, another hole in my kayak :-) Regardless of what bailer you do use, make darn sure you practice with it first in some reasonably choppy conditions. I've taught workshops where folks got a real big surprise when it came to actually pumping their boats out with hand pumps. They were exhausted before completion. The short-stroke pump is a bit slower, but may be a little easier to use and less likely to bend the shaft. Depth of cockpit can also be a factor with pump length. Back to the selfbailer again, I know paddlers who will not even have a skeg box in a kayak (for fear of potential leakage), let alone one of these devices. The best drain remains the cockpit -- kayak inverted and lifted of course. A bulkhead close to the back seat certainly helps. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: merijn wijnen [mailto:merijn_at_music.demon.nl] Hi all, It is common kayak knowledge that you have to pump to get your kayak ....For sailing boats a similar thing exists, but it is not fitted in a rear bulkhead but in the bottom. .....Has anybody tried one of these devices on a kayak? I wonder if it would function at our speeds. Merijn >> Hi Merijn I used to have one on my sailing Dinghys (Laser and Northbridge Senior) and were called a Ventura - though I have no idea where that name came from. The problem with using them on a kayak is you need to be moving very fast for them to work. Even on my sailing boats they required a reasonable speed (much faster than a paddler) before they would start draining the water out. Although I have never tried them on a kayak I would imagine you would not be able to paddle fast enough for them to be effective David Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Whyte, David" wrote: > I used to have one on my sailing Dinghys (Laser and Northbridge Senior) > and were called a Ventura - though I have no idea where that name came > from. The term you're looking for is "venturi". Suction is created by the flow of water (or air) past the venturi and it draws water (or air) through it. It's the principle used in carburetors. > The problem with using them on a kayak is you need to be moving > very fast for them to work. Even on my sailing boats they required a > reasonable speed (much faster than a paddler) before they would start > draining the water out. Although I have never tried them on a kayak I > would imagine you would not be able to paddle fast enough for them to be > effective Sit on top kayaks often use them in the seat. However, they have buoyant hulls with large trapped air spaces for floatation and no real cockpit. I don't know how well they would work on a closed kayak with a flooded cockpit. -- Regards Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Fernando Lopez Arbarello [mailto:kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar] But a cruising speed of 3 or 4 knots should work fine ( 4 knots is a regular speed for small vessels ).>> I would think 4 knots would not be fast enough for the venturi to work properly - it wasn't on my sailing boat. I also have the same problem with my neoprene skirt when I use my foot pump. It is air tight and the skirt slowly concaves in as I pump David *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Whyte, David <david.whyte_at_amsa.gov.au> I would think 4 knots would not be fast enough for the venturi to work properly - it wasn't on my sailing boat. .... Hi David, Question .... Are the drain plugs simple holes or do they have any valve ??? How deep in the water do they work ??? What diameter ??? Are they placed parallel to the hull, or do they have any angle to the water ??? What's the experience with sot's owners ??? I wonder why they seem to work on sit on tops at low speeds and not in the sailing boat .... ( Dave, I´m not doubting about what you said, I just mean that if both opinions are right there should be a difference either in the kid of plug used, or the way it´s set up ). Best regards .- Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Question .... Are the drain plugs simple holes or do they have any valve ??? >How deep in the water do they work ??? What diameter ??? Are they placed >parallel to the hull, or do they have any angle to the water ??? >What's the experience with sot's owners ??? The holes in the bottoms of many SOTs aren't a challenge since the hull is thick enough that even loaded water does not come through the drain holes (scuppers). On the Twogood Mako there are 2 venturi bailers. One on each footwell. These are basically a hole in the hull with a small shield (that looks like 1/4 of an egg) over the front of the hole. I believe there is some water in the footwells of the Mako when not moving. The water drains very quickly when underway. There is a constant sucking sound as the boat is paddled. The self bailer in my canoes (the same bailer as http://www.sculling.com/self_bailer.html ) needs to be deployed in order to function. To deploy the bailer a metal lever needs to be lifted before the bailer can be pushed through the hull. The lever can then be used to pull the bailer back up when it is no longer needed. The bailer has a trap door at the back that allows water to easily flow out and reduces inflow. If the bailer was left deployed when the boat isn't moving water would slowly fill the boat. I think this bailer would be awkward to access in most kayaks, since having physical access to it is necessary to deploy and retract it. I'm not good enough with my feet inside a kayak to try and deploy or retract it. I am able to operate the bailer with my foot in the canoes. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Barbara said... |After a rescue sometimes the best way to get water out of a kayak in deep |water is to heft it up on another kayak, flip it upside down, and drain the |water that way. I learned the following on Paddlewise. If you want to empty your yak you can lift the bow out of the water. The water will drain from the cockpit pretty easy. The trick is that my PFD does not provide enough flotation to keep me from being pushed down into the water by the weight of the filled kayak. BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be lifted and drained. I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real well for me. I guess the two cavets are one has to have the strength to lift the kayak in the first place and the paddle float has to have some decent floatation. I have a foam filled paddle float so I don't have to blow the thing up when I need it. I would assume the air bladder floats would work as well..... Hope this helps... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan says: "If you want to empty your yak you can lift the bow out of the water. The water will drain from the cockpit pretty easy. The trick is that my PFD does not provide enough flotation to keep me from being pushed down into the water by the weight of the filled kayak. BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be lifted and drained. I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real well for me." This was described in a Sea Kayaker not too long back, I think. Has anyone been able to accomplish this after being capsized unexpectedly? Forgive my scepticism, but this seems like a flat water trick unlikely to be of much use in a real life rescue and recovery situation. Regards, Peter Treby 37ş 42' S 145ş 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/21/01 10:35:33 PM, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: << Has anyone been able to accomplish this after being capsized unexpectedly? Forgive my skepticism, but this seems like a flat water trick unlikely to be of much use in a real life rescue and recovery situation. >> After Dan wrote: << BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be lifted and drained.I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real well for me.>> This is the method we teach. I haven't tried it in storm conditions but it works in the ocean under normal (not flat) conditions, for us anyway. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote: << BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be lifted and drained. I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real well for me.>> <This is the method we teach. I haven't tried it in storm conditions but it works in the ocean under normal (not flat) conditions, for us anyway. Jed> Well, blow me down. If you have your paddlefloat inflated, why bother going to the bow and emptying the boat from the water? Why not re-enter and roll, using the paddlefloat if need be. Then pump out with your foot and/or electric pump, when you're out of the water in your boat. I suppose if you don't have a hands-free pump, you have to think of emptying the bulk of the flooded boat some other way. Hand pumps, emptying the boat from the water, and boat over boat stuff just seem low priority choices to me. However, since you say it works in normal conditions, I'll give it a go. Always good to have another option practised and familiar. PT 37ş 42' S 145ş 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:29 AM 3/22/01 +1100, Peter Treby wrote: >Dan wrote: ><< BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be >lifted and drained. I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real >well >for me.>> ><This is the method we teach. I haven't tried it in storm conditions but >it works in the ocean under normal (not flat) conditions, for us anyway. >Jed> >Well, blow me down. If you have your paddlefloat inflated, why bother going >to the bow and emptying the boat from the water? Why not re-enter and roll, >using the paddlefloat if need be. Then pump out with your foot and/or >electric pump, when you're out of the water in your boat. You're making the assumption that someone that has capsized knows how to do a re-enter and roll. I would be willing to bet that a pretty high percentage of sea kayakers have never even tried a re-enter and roll. >I suppose if you don't have a hands-free pump, you have to think of emptying >the bulk of the flooded boat some other way. Hand pumps, emptying the boat >from the water, and boat over boat stuff just seem low priority choices to >me. They might to you, but you've got the skills to do a re-enter and roll. The vast majority of beginners do not. I learned a easy method for emptying water from a kayak from Nigel Dennis last summer. While I've never capsized while doing a T-X rescue I've felt a bit vulnerable when trying to life the boat onto my deck. This technique keeps things more stable for the rescuer. Rather than turn the boat cockpit side up, the swimmer leaves it upside down and pushes it toward the rescuer and the rescuer just grabs onto the bow. The swimmer then works their way down the side of their boat to the rescuers boat and around to the other side using the deck lines. The importance of maintaining contact with a boat at all times was stressed at this point. The swimmer then reaches across and grabs the bow toggle on their boat and places both feet on the side of the rescuers boat just in front of the cockpit. Then the swimmer just leans backward, pulling the bow across the rescuers boat. Once the cockpit is out of the water, it drains, and the rescuer rotates the boat back upright and places it bow to stern. The swimmer then climbs over the rescuers boat to reenter. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote: << BUT if you use your paddlefloat, it and the PFD will allow the boat to be lifted and drained. I just tuck the paddlefloat under an arm. Works real well for me.>> <This is the method we teach. I haven't tried it in storm conditions but it works in the ocean under normal (not flat) conditions, for us anyway. Jed> And Then Peter said... "Well, blow me down. If you have your paddlefloat inflated, why bother going to the bow and emptying the boat from the water? Why not re-enter and roll, using the paddlefloat if need be. Then pump out with your foot and/or electric pump, when you're out of the water in your boat." I don't have an inflatable paddlefloat. If it has to hold air it won't so I have a foam paddlefloat. Its bulky but it works and I don't have to worry about blowing it up or it leaking. I have not compared it with an air float but I suspect the my foam float has more bouyancy than the air bladder examples I have seen. I don't have a roll so rentering the boat and rolling is not an option. The problem with hand pumps is that they are very slow. I think they are all but useless if you have lots of water in the boat. I can drain almost all the water out of the water filled kayak in seconds by lifting the bow. Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said.... |This was described in a Sea Kayaker not too long back, I think. |Has anyone been able to accomplish this after being capsized unexpectedly? |Forgive my scepticism, but this seems like a flat water trick unlikely to be |of much use in a real life rescue and recovery situation. I have only tried it in choppy water. The one time I have been suddenly knocked over I swam the yak into shore since I don't have a roll. In the conditions I was in I think this would have worked. 2-3 foot steep waves generated by an outgoing tide in a very confined channel with a small craft advisory/thunder storm cell winds blowing against the tide. I think I could have dumped the water real easy. I don't see why the technique would be any harder than trying to lift a yak out of the water onto another boat. That seems to be a much more difficult technique in nasty stuff. But I very seldom paddle with someone so thats not going to work for me anyway... The real question was/is could I get back into the boat with a paddle float re-entry in those conditions. That I'm NOT so sure about. Thus I swam to shore ASAP, emptied the boat and got my chicken butt out of there. The winds did not bother me. The tide was not a problem. That thunderstorm with lightning was The Problem. There were still people staying on the beach as I paddled at my fastest rate possible to get home. This was one of the worst lightning storms I have ever been in. The roofers next to us took a LONG time to get off the house they were fix'n. I really expected them to get zapped. I really don't see how they lived. I was scared as it was it that little thinly built beach house on stilts. The ONLY reason I was out in those conditions was I was safe until the lightning showed up. This was at the end of August so the water was very warm and I could easily swim out of the conditions I was in if I got into trouble. Which was the whole reason for me to be out playing. I wanted to see what I could do. What knocked me over was a very powerful bow sweep at the same time I was hit by a gust of wind AND a steeper wave. Over I went. If I had waited another 30 seconds or so I would have been out of the main channel and in smoother water and most likely would not have gone over. I told myself at the time to try just one more bow stroke...... 8-) But I ain't practicing technique in lightning storms if I have ANY say in the matter! 8-) Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John, Ray Killen taught me an excellent fast way of emptying a boat in a TX rescue, the fastest by far that I have seen. I also feel that it is far more stable than the typically vertical method. The steps were, paddle for the bow of the rescuees boat stash your paddle under the lines of the your foredeck a couple of strokes away grab the bow of the inverted boat with both hands, close one under far hand on keel, and roll your boat toward the outside about 90 degrees using your hull as a lever to essentially pry the bow out of the water emptying the cockpit. The kayak is acting like a huge floatation device keeping you from rolling over to 180 degrees. on the way back up to vertical invert the rescuees kayak upright still using your hull as a pivot. With a couple of practices, your initial momentum makes it easy to spin the kayak parallel for re-entry. this requires a bit of technique for the rescuee to maintain a hold of her kayak, but I did it with a friend at an IDE last year timed to 30 seconds- 15 ft away to a secure sprayskirt in a dry boat. This was in a chop, 20 knot winds and big tidal current. > > I learned a easy method for emptying water from a kayak from Nigel Dennis > last summer. While I've never capsized while doing a T-X rescue I've felt > a bit vulnerable when trying to life the boat onto my deck. This technique > keeps things more stable for the rescuer. -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com İİİİİ furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary İİİİİ life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint İİİİİ paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said.... |This was described in a Sea Kayaker not too long back, I think. |Has anyone been able to accomplish this after being capsized unexpectedly? |Forgive my scepticism, but this seems like a flat water trick unlikely to be |of much use in a real life rescue and recovery situation. I have only tried it in choppy water. The one time I have been suddenly knocked over I swam the yak into shore since I don't have a roll. In the conditions I was in I think this would have worked. 2-3 foot steep waves generated by an outgoing tide in a very confined channel with a small craft advisory/thunder storm cell winds blowing against the tide. I think I could have dumped the water real easy. I don't see why the technique would be any harder than trying to lift a yak out of the water onto another boat. That seems to be a much more difficult technique in nasty stuff. But I very seldom paddle with someone so thats not going to work for me anyway... The real question was/is could I get back into the boat with a paddle float re-entry in those conditions. That I'm NOT so sure about. Thus I swam to shore ASAP, emptied the boat and got my chicken butt out of there. The winds did not bother me. The tide was not a problem. That thunderstorm with lightning was The Problem. There were still people staying on the beach as I paddled at my fastest rate possible to get home. This was one of the worst lightning storms I have ever been in. The roofers next to us took a LONG time to get off the house they were fix'n. I really expected them to get zapped. I really don't see how they lived. I was scared as it was it that little thinly built beach house on stilts. The ONLY reason I was out in those conditions was I was safe until the lightning showed up. This was at the end of August so the water was very warm and I could easily swim out of the conditions I was in if I got into trouble. Which was the whole reason for me to be out playing. I wanted to see what I could do. What knocked me over was a very powerful bow sweep at the same time I was hit by a gust of wind AND a steeper wave. Over I went. If I had waited another 30 seconds or so I would have been out of the main channel and in smoother water and most likely would not have gone over. I told myself at the time to try just one more bow stroke...... 8-) But I ain't practicing technique in lightning storms if I have ANY say in the matter! 8-) Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan McCarty wrote: <SNIP>>>>>>I don't have an inflatable paddlefloat. If it has to hold air it won't so I have a foam paddlefloat. Its bulky but it works and I don't have to worry about blowing it up or it leaking. I have not compared it with an air float but I suspect the my foam float has more bouyancy than the air bladder examples I have seen. I don't have a roll so rentering the boat and rolling is not an option.<<<<<<< While I have nothing against foam paddle floats (other than their bulk and where to store them). I like the 30 seconds or so of blowing up time saved. However, many inflatable paddle floats have two chambers as a back-up and even the rare leak in a single chambered inflatable is likely to be slow enough to allow a rescue to be performed before it deflates too much. It would take a huge bulky foam float to equal the buoyancy of the larger inflatable floats. Dan continued: >>>>>The problem with hand pumps is that they are very slow. I think they are all but useless if you have lots of water in the boat. I can drain almost all the water out of the water filled kayak in seconds by lifting the bow.<<<<< While the common 1 3/4" diameter hand pumps are too slow they are faster than foot pumps, deck mounted pumps and even some small electrical pumps. One benefit of them is you are mostly out of the cold water while you are working them, but even more important they are inexpensive and will work with almost any kayak that has adequate flotation. The bow lift rescue should be practiced because in certain situations it can be a lot faster than a pump at emptying the water. The problems with it are that it is both boat and conditions specific. It won't work with some kayaks and it won't work with almost all heavily gear laden kayaks. Learn it but don't leave your pump at home. If you weigh enough I'd also practice pushing down with all your weight on the very stern to raise the bow and then rotate (along the long axis) the kayak to break the suction at the cockpit and drain the cockpit. This is unlikely to work with a loaded kayak either but you don't need the extra buoyancy of a float to lift the bow that way (and if you didn't have your float tethered it may have blown away when you had it not tucked securely enough under your arm). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt writes: "the bow lift rescue should be practised because in certain situations it can be a lot faster than a pump at emptying the water. The problems with it are that it is both boat and conditions specific." Isn't the big problem that you are clowning around in the water wasting time doing it? You empty the boat using a bow lift, right the boat, the waves that capsized you in the first place fill the cockpit again, and you are still in the water getting colder and less coordinated as time goes on. Why didn't you spend your valuable hypothermia-unaffected minutes getting back into the boat and pumping out? Deep Trouble. PT 37ş 42' S 145ş 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby [mailto:ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au] wrote: > > > Matt writes: >> "the bow lift rescue should be practiced because in certain situations it >> can be a lot faster >> than a pump at emptying the water. The problems with it are that >> it is both boat and conditions specific." > Isn't the big problem that you are clowning around in the water > wasting time > doing it? You empty the boat using a bow lift, right the boat, the waves > that capsized you in the first place fill the cockpit again, and you are > still in the water getting colder and less coordinated as time > goes on. Why > didn't you spend your valuable hypothermia-unaffected minutes getting back > into the boat and pumping out? Deep Trouble. Since you are going to deploy your paddlefloat anyway that is not adding any time. If the kayak is empty and the seas aren't extreme (so the cockpit is unlikely to refill on entering it) the bow lift or stern push can be done in a short period of time (and save you a long pump out sitting in cold water). You also might possibly be in an area you would like to move away from as quickly as possible. I'd say it's well worth learning these dump out methods but keep in mind the limitations so you aren't wasting time in cold water trying them at a time and place (or with a kayak or gearload) where they aren't likely to succeed. Some kayaks have enough freeboard that they aren't likely to take on as much water while reentering the cockpit as others do. With a fixed outrigger and paddlefloat stabilizing the kayak to the wave face it would take some very rough seas to swamp them again while you were setting up the outrigger and reentering. Like I said, this is a very boat specific and condition specific rescue but in the right situation it could be the best option. It is not however the one I would teach first. A new paddler needs to learn the rescue that is the most reliable in the widest range of conditions. One that works with the widest assortment of kayaks and with the least required skills or courage required (knowing how to roll or just putting your head back underwater--as with the Reenter & Roll for example). I think the rescue best fitting that criteria is an outrigger paddlefloat and pump out. Since some rescues will work better than it with certain kayaks or under certain conditions they also should be learned but a strong emphasis needs to be put on the downsides of any rescues so the capsized new paddler won't waste a lot of time and heat trying to do the impossible (because they didn't understand the limitations). An instructor should encourage learning a wide variety of rescues and promote the Eskimo roll as the best rescue once capsized and bracing to prevent capsizing as another essential skill one should learn early on. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote: "You're making the assumption that someone that has capsized knows how to do a re-enter and roll. I would be willing to bet that a pretty high percentage of sea kayakers have never even tried a re-enter and roll. >I suppose if you don't have a hands-free pump, you have to think of emptying >the bulk of the flooded boat some other way. Hand pumps, emptying the boat >from the water, and boat over boat stuff just seem low priority choices to >me. They might to you, but you've got the skills to do a re-enter and roll. The vast majority of beginners do not." You're right, I was assuming other skills were available. A beginner, by definition, doesn't know how to do any rescue at all. What is the first rescue to try and learn, for a beginner? I suggest that trying to empty the boat from the water, before acquiring solid re-entry skills, is futile. Have a read of "Deep Trouble". There is at least one example of a paddler without solid rescue skills trying to invent a rescue on the spot, trying, and failing, to bail the boat from the water. I think a beginner should have a rescue-worthy boat, and learn to re-enter a.s.a.p. Experience is a tough teacher. You get the test first, and the lesson later. Good Paddling, PT 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:50 AM 3/23/01 +1100, Peter Treby wrote: >John wrote: >"You're making the assumption that someone that has capsized knows how to >do a re-enter and roll. I would be willing to bet that a pretty high >percentage of sea kayakers have never even tried a re-enter and roll. > >I suppose if you don't have a hands-free pump, you have to think of >emptying > >the bulk of the flooded boat some other way. Hand pumps, emptying the boat > >from the water, and boat over boat stuff just seem low priority choices to > >me. >They might to you, but you've got the skills to do a re-enter and roll. The >vast majority of beginners do not." >You're right, I was assuming other skills were available. >A beginner, by definition, doesn't know how to do any rescue at all. Not by my definition. I help teach an introductory/beginner class with a friend of mine that runs the local kayak shop. After a brief introduction to forward, reverse, and sweep strokes, the next thing we do is have them do a wet exit, followed by a rescue. First an assisted rescue (usually a T-X), followed by a self rescue with a paddlefloat. I'm not saying that they have solid re-entry skills after that first lesson but at least they've had formal instruction. It's up to them to practice those skills so that they become solid. >What is >the first rescue to try and learn, for a beginner? I suggest that trying to >empty the boat from the water, before acquiring solid re-entry skills, is >futile. I suggest that both skills can be taught at the same time. >Have a read of "Deep Trouble". Yes, I have. >There is at least one example of a >paddler without solid rescue skills trying to invent a rescue on the spot, >trying, and failing, to bail the boat from the water. I think a beginner >should have a rescue-worthy boat, and learn to re-enter a.s.a.p. So do I. I see trying to empty as much water from the boat as possible as part of the process of a re-entry. I also recognize that the conditions in which a capsize has occurred may dictate just how one performs a rescue. Obviously if someone capsizes in 40 degree water, getting back in the boat as soon as possible is of upmost importance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John: That last post of mine was sent in error, before I had fully considered it. That's one of the perils of cyber paddling, recklessness with the send button. We don't seem to have much disagreement, from your reply. Just this... "I think a beginner should have a rescue-worthy boat, and learn to re-enter a.s.a.p. So do I. I see trying to empty as much water from the boat as possible as part of the process of a re-entry." >From my own experience and perspective to date, emptying as much water as possible is best accomplished by an efficient hands-free pump, rather than boat over boat or bow lifting. This opinion has not changed after a river session this morning trying the bow lift with an unloaded boat, on flat water. It is (as you'd expect) a slower process than a re-enter and roll, but by much more than I'd thought. Practice would no doubt speed things up. I tried a bow lift supported by the paddlefloat under one arm, but not on the paddle. This adds the complication of the paddlefloat slipping out from under your arm, and it tries to do this at the time the submerging force is greatest, when the bow is out of the water. It's quite a bit better, and feels much more secure, to place the inflated paddlefloat on the paddle and hook it under an armpit, then lift. You can then use both hands to lift and steady the boat. From that point, the quickest re-entry is a roll with the paddlefloat still attached. It would be interesting to see how heavy a boat can be emptied using this method. Minimizing the cockpit volume will be a help with this, given less drain time, and given 1 kg per litre to lift. Good paddling Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Personally, I believe the simplicity of kayaks is more compatible with an > approach that emphasizes independence and adaptability over shopping for > every conceivable redundancy. > Well put, Mark. I wish I'd said that. I would like to try and take a moment here to put things into their proper perspective. First of all, the bow lift works. So does the reenter and roll. Of course the paddle float rescue has long been considered a standard in this sport. Frankly, if I end up out of the boat (which incidentally never happens unless it's intentional) I simply climb back into the boat from the water, without a paddle float or any other kind of assistance. My boat has a beam of 22.5 inches and yes, I've done it in rough water. But I am probably considered an expert level paddler and I practice all of these things constantly. Now in regards to the question of what the beginner is doing --- I would like to ask what in the #$% is a beginner doing paddling alone in conditions where a self rescue might be necessary in the first place! I teach beginners assisted rescues and I tell them that as a beginner they should be paddling with other people in fairly benign conditions. When asked about solo paddling I always tell people that solo paddling is great, but one must be prepared for the worst case scenario. That is, considering water temp. and distance, they should be able to easily swim to shore. If they go beyond this then they should have several well practiced methods available to them for performing self rescue. Of course, once they have reached this level then I no longer consider them to be a beginner. I think it is beneficial to practice every conceivable type of kayak rescue. But when you get right down to it I have to preach my usual mantra, that far more important then the skills or the equipment in this sport is the ability to paddle intelligently and recognize one's limits. Rather then quibbling over the effectiveness of a particular rescue in a particular scenario I think this group should instead be asking "why is this person in this situation in the first place?" "A man's got to know his limits." Dirty Harry Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/24/01 8:49:24 AM, KiAyker_at_aol.com writes: << Now in regard to the question of what the beginner is doing --- I would like to ask what in the #$% is a beginner doing paddling alone in conditions where a self rescue might be necessary in the first place! I teach beginners assisted rescues and I tell them that as a beginner they should be paddling with other people in fairly benign conditions. >> Scott sounds like a BCU convert <G>. I fundamentally agree with him BUT I believe that beginners get themselves into more trouble under most circumstance due to lack of self confidence/over confidence and lack of understanding of how their boats functions. I am not a teacher but I go to the winter pool sessions with the intent of being there to help others learn or work on skills. I don't know how many people I have helped with the basics, like wet exits and rescues. Having new paddlers try a paddle float self rescue is something that really makes an impact, especially the first time they flip over IN THE POOL trying to get back in. It makes them "worry" about cold water to some extent. And that first self rescue evokes a smile close to the one from the first roll. It's like, "Yes!" I tell them all the same things; stay low, keep a hand on the paddle shaft at all times with weight on it, etc. I have had only a few who actually did what I told them and didn't flip over. Flipping gives me a chance to talk about why they don't paddle alone and how hard all of this is in a body of water with a current or any wind, and the idea of NOT going out in cold water. It also gives me a chance to talk about the need for decklines and being aware of the condition of all the parts of the boat. I believe the feeling that they can get back in the boat if they have to is important. I think those who haven't thought about it need to be made aware of the issue. A paddle float has so many uses but I try to impress of people it's basic function. And then I point out all the other things, like a reenter and roll with the paddle float on the paddle, that it can be used for. I even used mine the day the back of my seat broke and I had no support for paddling. It did a lovely job of getting me back to the put-in. I also carry 2 of them, just in case. I see most of these people once or twice at the pool. I have a very short shot at making safe paddling fun for them. I encourage them to come back or when the water is warm enough to join the weekly club paddles. But, the usual case is that, they will take their boats and paddle a few times with friends, then run out of people to paddle with and just go by themselves. I hope that the $25.00 investment might encourage buyers to actually learn to use the thing. The clincher I use with them is to show them that they can roll with it on their paddle. For lots of them, this changes their view of the lowly paddle float. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have one of these (Elvstrom?) bailers in my marathon C2. Besides being hard to deploy, as stomping on the bail is about the only way to open the darned thing after the first time you use it, it gets very cranky when subjected to dirt, sand, etc. I have seen more than a few get jammed in the lowered position, then get ripped out in shallow water. Not a nice prospect when beaching on a remote island. If one wants to paddle while draining the kayak, stick to the foot-operated or electric pump. Kevin >From: kirk olsen <kolsen_at_imaginelan.com> >The self bailer in my canoes (the same bailer as >http://www.sculling.com/self_bailer.html ) >needs to be deployed in order to function. To deploy the bailer a >metal >lever needs to be lifted before the bailer can be pushed through >the hull. > The lever can then be used to pull the bailer back up when >it is no >longer needed. The bailer has a trap door at the back >that allows water to easily flow out and reduces inflow. If the >bailer >was eft deployed when the boat isn't moving water would slowly >fill the >boat. > >I think this bailer would be awkward to access in most kayaks, since > >having physical access to it is necessary to deploy and retract it. > >I'm not >good enough with my feet inside a kayak to try and deploy or > >retract it. I am able to operate the bailer with my foot in the canoes. > >kirk >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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