I started wondering about this. How many kayakers are out there? I keep hearing that this is one of the fastest growing sports in NA, but haven't seen any numbers. Does anyone know of a source of info of, say, sales volumes by type of kayak (recreational, touring (plastic vs composite)) etc? I took a quick look at the TAPS website, but found nothing. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike, The ACA (with 35,000 members) estimates 24.8 million paddlers in U.S.A. I'd like to know how many there are by country... Paddlewisers, please send in your numbers. -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm Places to Paddle tm - Kayaking - Canoeing - Rafting - Michael Daly wrote: > I started wondering about this. How many kayakers are out > there? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, May 03, 2002, at 8:45:58 AM PST, Al Vazquez wrote: > I'd like to know how many there are by country... Paddlewisers, > please send in your numbers. I am one (in USA). :-) Melissa -- PGP public keys: mailto:pgp_keys_at_gmx.co.uk?subject=0x46C29887&Body=Please%20send%20keys *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Al Vazquez" <alvazquez_at_kayakguide.com> > The ACA (with 35,000 members) estimates 24.8 million paddlers in U.S.A. But what fraction are sea kayakers? 10%? 25%? Do the TASK members get sales volumes published every year? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike et al, (no pun intended) > > The ACA ......estimates 24.8 million paddlers in U.S.A. If the foregoing is even remotely true I'll eat my paddle float! Can 24.8 million be a community? How many people actually tour kayak as opposed to day trip? Are they competent, equiped paddlers or inexperienced and ill-equiped? Are some of these 24.8 million arm chair paddlers, kind of like the Round Table Pizza Guy? I'm thinking alot of these boats go nowhere, like those well-polished 4 wheelers nose-to-nose in rush hour. Sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:03 PM 5/3/02 -0700, Sid Taylor wrote: > >How many people actually tour kayak as opposed to day trip? Are they >competent, equiped paddlers or inexperienced and ill-equiped? > >Are some of these 24.8 million arm chair paddlers, kind of like the Round >Table Pizza Guy? > >I'm thinking alot of these boats go nowhere, like those well-polished 4 >wheelers nose-to-nose in rush hour. I suppose in the broadest sense of the word, 24 million isn't far off -- but much depends on how you define paddlers. I live in a largely rural county with a couple medium sized cities. Population about 100,000. I know of one other guy in the county besides myself that owns a fiberglass kayak (actually two, since his wife goes out with him occasionally.) I might have missed someone, but I'm not missing many. My regular paddling lake is a no-wake place, and is frequented by paddlers, so I figure sooner or later most everybody in the county that paddles a kayak is going to show up there, and I'll hear about them or meet them. It doesn't happen often. I can think of at the most half a dozen people with rec. boats from this county that have showed up there the last several years, although some of them several times. I occasionally paddle on a lake with about 700 summer homes, cottages, and the like. Usually I see no other kayaks, period. Once in a while, a rec. boat. Three times in four years, other sea kayaks, one plastic, one wood, one fiberglass. (Untold g.d. jetskis, etc.) Canoes, I see frequently -- but usually Grummans or other old boom-alums, some of which have been sitting around cottages for years. Presumably their owners can be considered paddlers, but I'll bet most of these boats don't get moved from one year to the next. Plastic canoes, rarely, and then usually Colemans. High-end canoes, by which I mean like Wenonah or Mad River, virtually never. I can't back it up with actual figures, but my gut feeling is that higher-end kayakers and canoeists are a pretty rare breed, at least in this neck of the woods. 24.8 million is about 8% of the US population -- and the figure seems high now that I think aobut it, unless you call anyone who has ever set foot in a canoe or kayak a paddler. Which is wishful thinking. I'd guess maybe a tenth of that many people actually get in a canoe or kayak once or twice a year. I suspect less than a tenth of that figure participate in paddlesports as an active recreational activity. In other words, about 250,000. And that figure feels about right, I think. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You find over half of them drunk on any given summer weekend on popular float streams. Calling them paddlers is a serious misnomer. > > The ACA ......estimates 24.8 million paddlers in U.S.A. > > If the foregoing is even remotely true I'll eat my paddle float! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have seen estimates from time to time but they strike me as grossly overly stated. ralph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Size of kayaking community? > I started wondering about this. How many kayakers are out > there? I keep hearing that this is one of the fastest growing > sports in NA, but haven't seen any numbers. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Wes Boyd" <boydwe_at_dmci.net> > neck of the woods. 24.8 million is about 8% of the US population -- and the > figure seems high now that I think aobut it, unless you call anyone who has > ever set foot in a canoe or kayak a paddler. Which is wishful thinking. I'd > guess maybe a tenth of that many people actually get in a canoe or kayak > once or twice a year. I suspect less than a tenth of that figure > participate in paddlesports as an active recreational activity. In other > words, about 250,000. And that figure feels about right, I think. There is a rule of thumb used in the publishing world. Basically you expect that a mature publication is doing its job if it is reaching about 10 per cent of its targeted audience or market. This formula doesn't always work but it certainly gives you something to wrap your hands on. So a mature magazine like C&K has an audited circulation in the 50,000-60,000 range (it is the only paddling magazine that is ABC audited, i.e. really audited and not with figures that include funny things). So, it is probably safe to say that there are 500,000 paddlers out there of the WW, canoe, SK variety. To narrow down the latter look at Sea Kayaker's circulation. Its circulation is not audited but just declared for purposes of a break in postage (they need to put a statement as do all the magazines indicating ownership, issues sold, freebies, etc. and this appears in an issue in the Fall, usually in the tiniest of prints in some back page). If I recall correctly, the latest last Fall was in the 26,000 range. But you may want to doctor that down a bit because it is not audited, say to 20,000. Multiply by 10 and you get around 200,000 sea kayakers. Again this formula is not perfect. Runners World for example has a circulation, I believe in the 100,000 range (I don't know if I have seen their box they have to publish in the fall but I think that figure is about right). It would then suggest that there are 1 million runners but there are a lot more than that, i.e. people who regularly run say 2 miles and up several times a week. The 24.8 million figure for paddlers is a pipe dream. ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It has been estimated that there are 24 million paddlers but several people have expressed skepticism regarding that figure based on how one defines "paddler", so I offer, in my best Jeff Foxworthy voice... If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more than 23" wide.. ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. If you have ever gone kayaking and brought along beer ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you transport your kayak using a shiny new 4x4 ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you paddle a Sit-on-top kayak ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If your paddle is not made of graphite ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you get your pizza at Round Table ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you have ever taken off your PFD while paddling ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you don't know how to roll ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If the only kayak you own is made out of polyethelyne ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community If you call yourself a recreational paddler ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community I hope I've made my point *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > It has been estimated that there are 24 million paddlers but several people > have expressed skepticism regarding that figure based on how one defines > "paddler", so I offer, in my best Jeff Foxworthy voice... > > If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more than 23" wide.. > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. > > If you have ever gone kayaking and brought along beer > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community > > If you transport your kayak using a shiny new 4x4 > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community > SNIPPED I would add: If you don't subscribe to PaddleWise...then you are not a part of the kayaking community If your boat is not made of skin on frame construction...then you are not a part of the kayaking community ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more > than 23" wide.. > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking > community. Whitewater paddlers might say: If you paddle a kayak more than 8' long... ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Fereira" <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> To: "PaddleWise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: May 06, 2002 9:25 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Are you a member of the Kayaking community? > If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more than 23" wide.. > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. etc.etc. John, Don't forget to add the following to your list. If you don't paddle in the ocean, than you're not part of the kayaking community. If you don't carry a VHF, than you're not part of the kayaking community. If you don't carry flares, than you're not part of the kayaking community. If you don't carry a tow line, than you're not part of the kayaking community. If you don't carry a spare paddle, than you're not part of the kayaking community. If you don't wear a skirt, than you're not part of the kayaking community. Thought of while popping some Advil after my non-kayaking weekend with my 16'10" Gulfstream which is not a kayak because it's less than 17' long and is 1/4" too wide---and contemplating taking my SOT out soon now that the water is approaching 60. Steve Holtzman Southern CA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more than 23" wide.. > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. That gets rid of at least one person who's circumnavigated the South Island of New Zealand - and that's a SERIOUS trip. BTW, don't define a kayak by its overall length or overall beam, that's completely misleading. >If you have ever gone kayaking and brought along beer > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community OK we'll leave it at port and wine as the preferred drink? Or does it have to be spirits? >If your paddle is not made of graphite > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community That gets rid of Paul Caffyn for the round Australia trip!!!! Anyway, whats wrong with wood for the rest of us? >If you have ever taken off your PFD while paddling > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community Exit Paul again. >If you don't know how to roll > ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community Exit another serious paddler/circumnavigator. >I hope I've made my point Which one was that? Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:09 AM 5/7/02 +1200, Alex Ferguson wrote: >>If you paddle a kayak less than 17' long or more than 23" wide.. >> ... then you're not a part of the kayaking community. > >That gets rid of at least one person who's circumnavigated the South >Island of New Zealand - and that's a SERIOUS trip. BTW, don't define a >kayak by its overall length or overall beam, that's completely misleading. >[snip] >>I hope I've made my point > >Which one was that? I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough that everyone would have recognized my posting as such. I guess I forgot that many people might not know about Jeff Foxworthy and his "you might be a redneck" shtick. In the "Size of the Kayaking Community" thread as well as in the past there have been a lot of comments that come across (to me) as a bit elitist when defining "paddler" or "kayaker". Maybe because my years of experienced as a kayaker is not yet measured in double digits I still remember when I first started. Even though I didn't know how to roll, own a graphite paddle, or meet almost any of the "criteria" I wrote about as being required for entrance into the kayaking community I feel that I've been welcomed. However, I *have* seen a lot of comments reading this list over the past few years that do not sound so welcoming. While all of the comments I wrote were intended to be sarcastic, I've seen lots of implications that they are, in fact, the truth. My point is simply that as paddlers, or members of the kayaking community, denigrating those that paddle sit-on-tops, or recreational kayaks, or think it's perfectly safe to go out on a small protected lake in mid summer without a VHF radio and a set of flares, is not very welcoming and come across as elitist. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex, The Jeff Foxworthy voice that John referred to is a stand-up comic in the US. The joke was probably lost on a lot of our international members on Paddlewise who may not have ever heard Mr. F. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ferguson" <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: May 06, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are you a member of the Kayaking community? > That gets rid of at least one person who's circumnavigated the South Island > of New Zealand - and that's a SERIOUS trip. BTW, don't define a kayak by > its overall length or overall beam, that's completely misleading. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John, Though Foxworthy satire may have been lost on some of our international friends, I thought your original note was hilarious and made your point very well. The one truth that emerged from the thread was that you get what you ask for when it comes to statistics (if you're lucky). We have a sport that, in concept, is very simple. But it's become fragmented because it is, in fact, a sport that covers a great diversity of interests. The bottom line is that, if you believe you're a paddler, then you're a paddler, and welcome to the club. It's a community that generally welcomes everyone, and that's one thing I appreciate about it a great deal. ... although as a final note, Kevlar or not, I do believe all canoers are barbarians. :-))))) John Fereira wrote: I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough that everyone would have recognized my posting as such. I guess I forgot that many people might not know about Jeff Foxworthy and his "you might be a redneck" shtick. In the "Size of the Kayaking Community" thread as well as in the past there have been a lot of comments that come across (to me) as a bit elitist when defining "paddler" or "kayaker". -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm Places to Paddle tm - Kayaking - Canoeing - Rafting - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> John Fereira wrote: > I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough > that everyone would have > recognized my posting as such. I know who Jeff Foxworthy is, but I have heard folks that actually say worse than your sarcasm and mean it. If it was meant to be hyperbole, then you have no idea how far some folks will actually go. In some circles that would have been a mainstream opinion. I personally suspected, but wasn't sure of your meaning. Pete Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:36 AM 5/7/02 -0700, Peter Staehling wrote: > > John Fereira wrote: > > I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough > > that everyone would have > > recognized my posting as such. > >I know who Jeff Foxworthy is, but I have heard folks >that actually say worse than your sarcasm and mean it. > If it was meant to be hyperbole, then you have no >idea how far some folks will actually go. In some >circles that would have been a mainstream opinion. I >personally suspected, but wasn't sure of your meaning. Sarcasm or hyperbole isn't all that effective unless there's some element of truth to it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:20 PM 5/7/2002 -0400, Al Vazquez wrote: >... although as a final note, Kevlar or not, I do believe all canoers are >barbarians. tsk, tsk, it's not good to call the list admin names ;-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tuesday, May 07, 2002, at 11:20:05 AM PST, Al Vazquez wrote: > ... although as a final note, Kevlar or not, I do believe all > canoers are barbarians. > :-))))) While I might well agree with you on that one (*wink wink* <---obvious enough?), let's be sure that we don't confuse and offend our UK paddling friends, who are often under the peculiar impression that a "qajaq" is a "canoe". And then there are those who insist on attaching silly "steering" and "retractable directional stability" contraptions on perfectly good paddle craft. There is just no hope for some... (*WINK WINK*!!!) PS: Long live Sp****ns! (oops!) Okay...now where's all my flameproof paddling gear? =:-o Melissa -- PGP public keys: mailto:pgp_keys_at_gmx.co.uk?subject=0x46C29887&Body=Please%20send%20keys *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> > PS: Long live Sp****ns! (oops!) Hey - Voyageur, makers of flotation bags and waterproof stuff sacks and gear for canoes and kayaks are now selling sponsons! Watch out uncle timmy, you've got competition. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> > I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough that everyone would have > recognized my posting as such. I guess I forgot that many people might not > know about Jeff Foxworthy and his "you might be a redneck" shtick. I caught it. But then... I'm a Foxworthy fan. :-) > My point is simply that as paddlers, or members of the kayaking community, > denigrating those that paddle sit-on-tops, or recreational kayaks, or think > it's perfectly safe to go out on a small protected lake in mid summer > without a VHF radio and a set of flares, is not very welcoming and come > across as elitist. Which underscores why it is impossible to get a count on how many kayakers are out there. Many kayakers avoid the group/club regulations, restrictions, hassels, and elitism by going solo or... by going with silent partners :-) jackie _,_ ,==(~ \ ) / _ .'/ __ _ ___ \\ { `~.. / \(Q)/ \ \\ \ `. |`| `\ `. `. ^ ^ ,sSSs,\, ``\ , \ )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) `|\|"\\\ <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ | \ "`" )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ | / <(_/_o_o_ _ 'sS[_`-+---+) |/ \----+-------+-\\----'---`-----\--------n----') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~\\~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~ '\ \ ~~ ~ ~ \ ~~ ~~~~ \\ ~~ ~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~ / \ \\ (/",o /{) ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~ <\(---'}/ \ ~~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~ ~~ ~ <7*""""\ \ [ \"\\___\ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~ [___`------) ~~ ~ \----------------- '-----`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~~~~~~~ ~\~~~ ~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~ \\ (\ \\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh so true, so true in all aspects of life, and THAT is why so many of us just lurk. My 2 pennies. Roggie ;-] JACKIE wrote: " Many kayakers avoid the group/club regulations, restrictions, hassels, and elitism by going solo or... by going with silent partners :-) jackie" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > Sarcasm or hyperbole isn't all that effective unless > there's some element > of truth to it. True enough, but it does need to be exaggerated somewhat. I didn't think it was even as ridiculus as what some folks would actually say and mean it. So I thought it probably was sarcasm, but I wasn't sure. Maybe I have just been exposed to worse jerks than you have. I think that it might just be worse in some circles of the whitewater community that I come from. I have heard folks actually say you weren't a high intermediate paddler if you hadn't run Great Falls of the Potomac or similar. Pete Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I "entered" the kayakin community, by joining a local club, I actually thought they were a pretty strange bunch. My club features white-water, rodeo, slalom, flat-water racing, sea- and touring kayakkers. Most of them paddle boats so tippy you can't decently stand up in them. None of their boats have storage room for a cooling box. Some of them can spend a whole day in a kayak without covering a distance of even half a mile. "Rodeo" they call it. Some spend a whole weekend of driving and camping, call it a "kayakking trip", and spend 2.5 minutes actually paddling. Their goal, in those minutes, are to get off the water as fast as possible. "Slalom racing". Some think the kayaking season starts in December and ends in March. "White water". One paddles a boat that has not even room for a thermos. I offered to put some bungies on his decks. He offered to kill me. Some spend more money on safety equipment then on their paddle. Some dress in tight rubber, with a rubber skirt that no woman would dare wear in public. Some paddle boats made of GLASS! They fall to pieces when you throw them off your car! They called me a fool for paddling an Old Town Loon: 1 meter wide with a comfortable chair. I used to carry no PFD or flares, but I did have an anchor and a good book, to spend hours in that great chair, enjoying the piece while making coffee, swimming around the boat, having a beer, having a smoke, looking at the sky... I KNOW that that's what's paddling all about, but I am liberal. I do not look down on that sorry bunch of fanatics. I even bought a sea kayak to please them. Today the sun was out. It's spring out here! I don't have that Loon any more, so I had to take the seayak out. The water I paddled is shallow and warms up quickly, so I could leave my PFD and wetsuit home and paddle in T-shirt and shorts. Every once in a while it's great to join the majority of paddlers who think it is a safe sport. Spotted some sort of Geese I've never seen before, seen 2 beavers up close and almost touched the third one with my bow. It was as big as a dog! I misjudged the tide and had to drag my boat through the mud. It came to my ancles, but there turned out te be treacherous holes of half a meter. I was glad I wasn't wearing my PFD: I hate to get it dirty. I paddled the last part in almost total darkness, scaring some ducks with worse nightvision then mine. Hmmmm, I love paddling! Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Vazquez" <alvazquez_at_kayakguide.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Are you a member of the Kayaking community? > The bottom line is that, if you believe you're a paddler, then you're a paddler, and welcome to the club. > It's a community that generally welcomes everyone, and that's one thing I > appreciate about it a great deal. > I agree Al, and would add that anyone upon whom people comment "what the **** are they doing in that thing in this weather?" must be a paddler. As a matter of fact, if it's plastic, SOF, composite, canoe, inflatable or even their mothers bath, if they're out there paddling, it's a start. If, like me, they are thinking about a sail, building their own boat, or seeing other peoples' pastimes as "think how many kayaks I could have bought for that much money", they are a paddler. <:-)) Kevin (D), 'cos there seem to be lots of Kevins around here. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>That gets rid of at least one person who's circumnavigated the South >>Island of New Zealand >I was hoping that my sarcasm was dripping enough that everyone would have >recognized my posting as such. I guess I forgot that many people might not >know about Jeff Foxworthy John's comment is true (worldwide postings) but it also allowed a few comments about what is really REAL (TM). If you believe you are, then you are - might be as good a way as any of defining a paddler. Interesting though to see the numbers quoted and to actually think about what the numbers mean and how wildy inaccurate they can become. We post to nearly 200 "members" just in Christchurch, population about 300,000. How many are regular and how many have bought a kayak and "think" they are kayakers is a question. We regularly run free instruction weekends, 30-40 attend though a proportion of those are "instructors". Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> They called me a fool for paddling an Old Town Loon: 1 meter wide with a > comfortable chair. I used to carry no PFD or flares, but I did have an > anchor and a good book, to spend hours in that great chair, enjoying the > piece while making coffee, swimming around the boat, having a beer, > having a smoke, looking at the sky... > > I KNOW that that's what's paddling all about> Niels. I own a sexy, skinny British boat and a fat American rec boat that is almost a yard wide. Its more fun to use the rec boat. Its fat and ugly but sooner or later we all end up that way. My kids like to flip it and use it as a diving platform while it sulks in the lake. The deer don't mind seeing it. They blink and stamp their feet. The dragonflies rest on the front. My cooler rests on the back. I sit in the middle. Its all about balance. Zen has been established. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk, Of course I meant "barbarians" as a good thing. And I certainly know you would CANOERS never use RULE your awesome list admin powers over our Paddlewise messages YAKKERS to retaliate in this free and open DROOL forum for exchange of CANOERS RULE ideas and philosophies YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. CANOERS RULE YAKKERS DROOL. Kirk Olsen wrote: > At 02:20 PM 5/7/2002 -0400, Al Vazquez wrote: > >... although as a final note, Kevlar or not, I do believe all canoers are > >barbarians. > > tsk, tsk, it's not good to call the list admin names ;-) -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm Places to Paddle tm - Kayaking - Canoeing - Rafting - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pretty sure Voyager has always built Timmy's sponsons. They're private labeled for Georgian Bay (or whatever his company is). We get private labeled float bags from them, as well. Alder Creek has tried to sell 'em for years. We have sold maybe 3 pair in 10 yrs. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael said in response to Melissa "soul sister" Reese: <<<< Hey - Voyageur, makers of flotation bags and waterproof stuff sacks and gear for canoes and kayaks are now selling sponsons! Watch out uncle timmy, you've got competition. Mike >>>> From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> > PS: Long live Sp****ns! (oops!) -------------- Hey guys n' gals, I just read an article about a fellow who spent a few months drifting at sea in a raft a few years ago. In his spare time he designed the ultimate life raft as a way of passing the time between eating Seagulls (or whatever he ate). Having survived his ordeal, he set about bringing his folding dream-raft into reality. It is finally in production. It can sail, be rowed, and handles rough seas with impunity -- due to its freeboard. And what gives it such desirable characteristics? Yep, sp****ns! That's right, timmy's vision for the future salvation of mankind (well, at least mariners in distress) is a reality in the rescue-raft field. He might have the last laugh here. I wonder if he even knows about the new design. As for months at sea, I'd be dreaming about brunettes, not inflatable devices. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> wrote: I suspect you estimations based on magazine subscriptions are probably in the right ballpark, if you want to count folks most of us would call paddlers. > The 24.8 million figure for paddlers is a pipe > dream. Maybe not, if everyone who has paddled a canoe or kayak at some point in their life is a paddler. It all depends on how you define paddler. Pete Staehling Chuckling to myself because this reminds me of a crude joke that I won't repeat here. Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:55 AM 5/6/02 -0400, ralph diaz wrote: > >There is a rule of thumb used in the publishing world. Basically you expect >that a mature publication is doing its job if it is reaching about 10 per >cent of its targeted audience or market. This formula doesn't always work >but it certainly gives you something to wrap your hands on. > >So a mature magazine like C&K has an audited circulation in the >50,000-60,000 range (it is the only paddling magazine that is ABC audited, >i.e. really audited and not with figures that include funny things). So, it >is probably safe to say that there are 500,000 paddlers out there of the WW, >canoe, SK variety. Feels like a comfortable figure to me. Certianly a lot better than 24.8 million, and comfortably in the ball yard of my guess of 250,000. Granted, much depends on how you define what the "paddling community" is. Overlooking the Foxworthy cracks, I suppose you could define a threshold number of times that a person gets out per year, say, five. Where you draw the line is obviously going to change the figure considerably. >To narrow down the latter look at Sea Kayaker's >circulation. Its circulation is not audited but just declared for purposes >of a break in postage (they need to put a statement as do all the magazines >indicating ownership, issues sold, freebies, etc. and this appears in an >issue in the Fall, usually in the tiniest of prints in some back page). If >I recall correctly, the latest last Fall was in the 26,000 range. But you >may want to doctor that down a bit because it is not audited, say to 20,000. >Multiply by 10 and you get around 200,000 sea kayakers. I suspect that figure is high. Again, how do you define a sea kayaker? My gut feeling is that SK probably does a little better at market penetration than more generalist magazines -- you floated the figure of 2 out of 10 in your other post. That would cut the number of sea kayakers in half. Secondly, if you assume the total number of active paddlers to be 500,000, well, that has to include canoes of many persuasions, fisherpeople, whitewater kayaks, rec boats, etc. Again, gut feeling, but I'd be willing to bet that well less than 1 in 10 active paddlers can be termed sea kayakers. > >The 24.8 million figure for paddlers is a pipe dream. Absolutely. In your other post you said that there has to be a figure between 25,000 and 25 million that's pretty close to the truth. I'd narrow that bracket considerably -- to, say, somewhere between 250,000 and 2.5 million. And I'd still bet the lower end of that range. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For what it is worth, our local kayaking club, The Chesapeake Paddlers Association has about 550 or so members at present. This number probably represents a good portion of the serious kayakers in our region, although not all of the 550 are "serious". When you consider that the Chesapeake Bay is the largest estuary in the US, with temperate weather conditions and a long paddling season, that's not a lot of paddlers. This is ture even if you double or triple the numbers to pick up non joiners and people living far from our membership base, which, I think, is concentrated in the northern half of the bay. Extrapolate this to the country at large and 250,000 looks to be overstated by maybe a factor of 10. Having said that, our annual training weekend for new paddlers has grown tremendously over the past years (double and triple digit growth with many people turned away due to lack of room and volunteer instructors), and if the kayaking community is growing at the same rate as interest in the training programs then 250,000 might be accurate in a few years. I wonder what other kayaking clubs are reporting for membership? A total of the membership in the various clubs in the US would give you a good handle on the poplulation I think. John Blackburn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:03 PM 5/3/02 -0700, Sid Taylor wrote: > >How many people actually tour kayak as opposed to day trip? Are they >competent, equiped paddlers or inexperienced and ill-equiped? > I seem to remember that for this figure a paddler is defined as someone who has been in a boat more than once in that year. Say, 2 paddler-days. I know that the figures for the Upper Delaware are enormous. You get 100s and 100s of thousands of paddlers along that stretch per year. A large percentage are private paddlers.... But certainly this is not the same as the 'hard-core' paddler. That number is much smaller and seems to be stable. Sales of rec kayaks and similar boats have taken off here in NJ. Local dealers I know say that they've sold hundreds of SOTs, for example. Yet there's been no increase in club memberships to speak of. BTW this seems to be changing now... One dealer mentioned that last year's sales were lower than the previous year and so far there hasn't been much interest this Spring. Maybe the market's saturated here... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Blackburn" <digipixs_at_erols.com> > For what it is worth, our local kayaking club, The Chesapeake Paddlers > Association has about 550 or so members at present. This number probably > represents a good portion of the serious kayakers in our region, although not > all of the 550 are "serious". When you consider that the Chesapeake Bay is the > largest estuary in the US, with temperate weather conditions and a long > paddling season, that's not a lot of paddlers. This is ture even if you double > or triple the numbers to pick up non joiners and people living far from our > membership base, which, I think, is concentrated in the northern half of the > bay. > > Extrapolate this to the country at large and 250,000 looks to be overstated by > maybe a factor of 10. There are two things going here: 1) the size of the kayaking community in the Chesapeake Bay area and 2) the national figures. Regarding Number 1, I suspect that there are way more kayakers in the Bay than just double or triple the CPA membership list. I say this from looking at local clubs in this area up here and knowing just how many people not only are not members but not even heard of the organization. If there were just 1,500 (your outside figure) of kayakers in the CPA area then you would not see as many shops and touring services doing business in the area as there are. But maybe all this hinges on what you term "serious." Serious is an elusive benchmark. Usually people tend to consider someone as serious who is of a similar level of devotion, gear, seasoning as they are. But there is a much wider band than that. Regarding Number 2. You feel that the 250,000 figure is off by a factor of 10. That would mean that every sea kayaker buys Sea Kayaker magazine, which is far from true. Again just looking around at sea kayakers who I know who are serious enough to paddle quite regularly in quite ambitious settings and I doubt that more than 1 or 2 in 10 get Sea Kayaker or any paddling magazine for that matter. There is some happy set of figures somewhere between your 25,000 sea kayakers figure and the 24 million paddlers that the ACA says are out there. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > There is a rule of thumb used in the publishing world. Basically you expect > that a mature publication is doing its job if it is reaching about 10 per > cent of its targeted audience or market. This formula doesn't always work > but it certainly gives you something to wrap your hands on. This is the kind of thing I've been looking for. I've seen reference to this kind of analysis before and I think it's a reasonable way to estimate given a paucity of other info. > To narrow down the latter look at Sea Kayaker's circulation. [...] But you > may want to doctor that down a bit because it is not audited, say to 20,000. > Multiply by 10 and you get around 200,000 sea kayakers. This sounds like a reasonable number of active participants in North America. I suppose we can bump it up for non-English speaking countries and for English countries that have their own magazines (hence low penetration by Sea Kayaker). It would be interesting to compare this to sales of, say, composite sea kayaks and high-end plastic SKs. > Again this formula > is not perfect. Runners World for example has a circulation, I believe in > the 100,000 range (I don't know if I have seen their box they have to > publish in the fall but I think that figure is about right). It would then > suggest that there are 1 million runners but there are a lot more than that, > i.e. people who regularly run say 2 miles and up several times a week. This reminds me of cross country skiing in its heyday in the '70s. It was estimated that one out of 5 Canadians were XC skiers. But most of them had skis but didn't know how to ski etc. The skis were kept at the cottage. The comparison was to swimmers, where 40% of Canadians (or some other huge number) were claimed to be swimmers. This meant counting every person who donned a bathing suit and entered water. In fact, swimmers who train or do it for exercise on a regular basis are relatively few. Hence: > The 24.8 million figure for paddlers is a pipe dream. Unless we include every person who ever sat in a paddle boat. This is useful info, Ralph. Thanks! Mike PS - my motivation is estimating sales potential for a widget that might reasonably only interest a "serious" paddler. Nothing real yet, just floating ideas. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey all, there was as survey carried out in Minnesota last year - I believe it was in conjunction with the Lake Superior Water Trail Association. The survey went out to either all registered Minnesota Canoe Association members or registered kayak owners (required in MN). I am sure someone on the list can clarify. Anyway, the survey was pretty in depth and had questions such as how many times you paddled in a year, in what region, how many over night trips. I am sure there are some interesting figures resulting from the survey. Here in the Netherlands (which is a long way from Minnesota but where I am currently living and answering surveys) things are very well organized. I think most Dutch are involved in clubs if they paddle. The first thing they learn here is "never paddle alone", so they rarely do (OK, I am opening myself up to a rebuttal from Niels). With this exstensive organization I am sure there are some pretty specific numbers. [slight pause for surfing] OK, I just took a look at the annual report on the Dutch National Canoe Union (Nederlandse Kano Bond at http://www.nkb.nl). They had 8,300 members in the year 2000. This includes all methods of paddling (whitewater etc). "Canoeing" here refers to kayaing as well as "Canadian". The NKB is the Dutch national organization. There are an additional 93 associated paddling clubs in the country. There are many people I am sure that belong to local clubs but not the national organization (such as myself). I think my club (http://www.kvzeeburg.nl)which is only about a year and a half old, has about 50 members. Another nearby club I paddle with in Haarlem has a huge clubhouse, massive boat storage and hundreds of boats. A lot of them dusty. "Serious" paddlers - I'd say there are about a dozen in both of the local clubs I paddle with. Although the Dutch tend to be fairly serious about everything they do outside. So how does your country stack up? -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
another way of making an estimate: I know most of the paddlers around here ("paddler" being somebody who owns a sea kayak and has used it at least 4-5 times that I can recall). There are about 40-50, using those criteria. The total population hereabouts is about 30,000. That makes about 0.17% sea kayak paddlers. Double that, figuring maybe I only know half the local paddlers. So that's 0.34% Apply that to the entire US population (250,000,000) and you get about 400,000 paddlers of the sea kayak variety. I bet that is way more realistic than 21 million (or whatever it was). I think 400,000 is high, but that's just intuition speaking. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:44 PM 5/6/02 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >another way of making an estimate: > >I know most of the paddlers around here ("paddler" being somebody who owns a >sea kayak and has used it at least 4-5 times that I can recall). There are >about 40-50, using those criteria. The total population hereabouts is about >30,000. > >That makes about 0.17% sea kayak paddlers. Double that, figuring maybe I only >know half the local paddlers. > >So that's 0.34% >Apply that to the entire US population (250,000,000) and you get about 400,000 >paddlers of the sea kayak variety. Uh, I get 850,000. However, math wasn't my strong subject. But your figures skew high, because you are in an area where sea kayaking is popular, at least partly because there's good places to do it in close at hand. F'r instance, I know at one time we had one or two Kansas sea kayakers on this echo, but not many. Again, to use the comment I used earlier to start all this. 100,000 people in this county. Realistically, I can think of six people that I could call sea kayakers using your definition (three with plastic boats as their best boat, three, including myself, with glass). That's .006% Double that, .0012% (although I suspect that's high). Multiply by 250 million, you get 30 thousand sea kayakers. (snip) > >I think 400,000 is high, but that's just intuition speaking. So do I. I know someone is going to look at my numbers and scream that I don't know math. They're right. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My day job is at what is (to my knowledge) the worlds biggest outdoor store. I work in the paddling department. Last year we sold around 450 boats. Only a dozen were whitewater. Less than (but close to) 100 were canoes. The rest were flatwater kayaks. I would say less than a 3rd of those were open water touring boats. The rest were rec boats. So if you are defining "paddler" as someone who paddles a touring boat in open water, then I would say the number is pretty low. If you are talking about the number of folks who sit in a decked boat at least once a year, I would say there are quite a few. That's pretty much just a regional observation. I would bet that the breakdown of boat types would be quite a bit different in Minnesota, for example. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>That's pretty much just a regional observation. I would bet that the breakdown of boat types would be quite a bit different in Minnesota, for example. > Not necessarily. I was told that most of the people who buy kayaks in the Twin cities just want them for use on the local lakes. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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