I am going to replace my 17 year old synthetic sleeping bag. I live in eastern Georgia, USA and mostly weekend camp near the coast. A friend with a lot of experience told me to stay away from a down filled bag because it can be a bear to dry out. Since it will be used kayak camping I have been looking at the polarguard 3D bags. Does this sound like the way to go in such a relatively warm climate? Typical nights are 55F with a few in the low 30'sF Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 24 Sep 2003 at 8:45, jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > Does this sound like the way to go in such a relatively warm climate? > Typical nights are 55F with a few in the low 30'sF The typical nights are easy to handle with a summer weight bag. The colder nights, touching the freezing point, are iffy. I know my summer weight plus a liner can handle it, give or take the wind. If you were talking about a heavy bag, down has definite advantages. For cold conditions, the synthetics are really bulky. For summer weights, though, I've compared my Polarguard to a friend's summer weight down and there's a big difference in volume, but both are relatively small. My personal preference would be to get a light synthetic, a fleece liner and a compression dry bag. Bring the liner for hot nights, the sleeping bag for cool nights and both for cold nights. Find a bag that can handle about +5C (I think metric... that's 41F) for you (since ratings are approximate). If you paddle a really low volume kayak and space is at a premium, get a down bag. While there's a risk of getting it wet, I've never had such a thing happen to me in decades of kayaking and canoeing. Mind you, fog and constant rain is not an issue in the areas I paddle, so YMMV in such conditions (PNW). Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >On 24 Sep 2003 at 8:45, jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > > > Does this sound like the way to go in such a relatively warm climate? > > Typical nights are 55F with a few in the low 30'sF > I use a Marmot AV Surf rated to 15 degrees F. If I am warm, I just drape it over my legs; cold, I zip it up. The lining is optimized for damp climates, which makes it great for kayaking. Easy to stuff into an oval Kajak sport hatch using a compression stuff sack. When tired and damp on a multiday trip, it is easy to feel cold even when temps are above freezing in part because of the effect of evaporative cooling. We had continuous fog, rain and intermittenly high winds this summer on the south coast of Newfoundland. A down bag would've been a disaster, but I was never cold in my Marmot. Again, again we come and go, changed, changing. Hands join, unjoin in love and fear, grief and joy. The circles turn, each giving into each, into all. Wendell Berry ********************************************************* John S. March, MD, MPH Professor and Chief, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Duke Child and Family Study Center 718 Rutherford Street Durham, NC 27705 919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F) Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad ********************************************************* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've looked at this bag, which might fill the bill as a summer weight bag. http://www.northernmountain.com/pgi-ProductSpec?524033 Among it's features are a "pocket" in the bottom of the bag which holds a thermarest pad or air mattress. If you're one of those toss and turn sleepers, like me, you find yourself constantly trying to stay on your pad when you turn over. There is also a "pocket" which holds a camp pillow in place, if you are one who is always losing track of your headrest. I now use a pretty heavyweight down bag which has performed well ( never been unfortunate enough to get it wet - the advice about a compression dry bag is good advice). I sometimes find the down bag to be overkill on summer nights, which is why I'm considering a summer weight bag - I like the idea that it can also be used as an over bag to add warmth to a 3 season bag. Good luck. Dan > On 24 Sep 2003 at 8:45, jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > > > Does this sound like the way to go in such a relatively warm climate? > > Typical nights are 55F with a few in the low 30'sF > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 24 Sep 2003 at 15:04, Dan Williams wrote: > I've looked at this bag, which might fill the bill as a summer weight > bag. I've no experience with those, but Big Agnes has been getting good reviews from those that have them. The sleeping pad sleeve is a good idea. At that price, it looks like a decent buy. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I like my down bag. It's a 20 degree (F) Marmot Sawtooth Membrane, weighing in at 3 pounds. It survived immersion in a hatch filled with water for over an hour + because I pack it in its own oxford cloth and taped stuff bag and in a OR hydroseal bag. If 20 degrees (F) is a bit low down for you try the Marmot Hydrogen. It's a 30 degree down bag with the water resistant membrane finsh and weighs one pound, twelve ounces, and stuffs down to a breadloaf sized bag. Why not take it from the SE coast and paddle in Alaska or BC or the Canadian maritimes? A 30 degree bag and a silk liner plus some long johns for really cold sleepers would be fine in 3 season conditions. The beauty of down is it's warmth versus weight and pack-ability. I don't find down's worthlessness as wet an issue as I pack it right and spend just a smidge more for the good water repellant shells. On a cold night its superbly dreamy. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jim , I think you've introduced a good subject for discussion . It seems that often the common wisdom these days is to say that the synthetic bag is far superior to the down filled bag . Yet there are those who do disagree . I attended a siminar given at the East Coast Canoe and Kayak festival this past April and the guy ( sorry I don't recall his name ) giving the siminar discussed both types of bags . His credentials , if I recall correctly , were many years spent mountain climbing and sea kayaking . He said that his personal choice was the down bag for the following two main reasons , a ) it packs smaller than a synthetic bag , b ) it is more comfortable over a wider temperature range than a synthetic bag . While he agreed that a down bag is useless if gotten wet he also believed that to be a non issue . Being of the firm belief that everyone he knows has always managed to keep their toilet paper dry on such outings and it is just as easy to keep your down sleeping bag dry . He did discuss synthetic bags and thought the newer synthetic bags are much better than older types because the newer types of synthetic filler are getting closer to the quality of down filler . Just not that close yet . He did not advocate never getting a synthetic bag saying it was a personal choice . His main point was that with modern dry bags one should never have a problem with your bag getting wet and managing that would allow you to use a down bag if your choose . For another point of view from the book "Beyond Backpacking " by Ray Jardine . He states that both a synthetic bag or a down filled bag are equally useless if wet . But a synthetic bag can be wrung out and have allot of its loft restored whereas a wrung out down bag is still flat . And with reduced loft there is reduced insulation . Which lead to some of his more interesting points . He states that any bag , synthetic or down , loses 10% of it loft the first time it is compressed . Loses an additional 2% of loft with each additional compression and is most damaged by being sat on while compressed . The important thing to remember is that no matter what type of bag we buy its performance may fall far short of what is expected if compressed to often or to much . There was the qualifier that these cautions applied to your normal backpacker type of bag and not the weight and pack size is no issue designs . That I suppose applies to the Wiggy bags , or other similar bags , from what I've heard about them . I've never kayak camped . But I have camped many times off the back of a motorcycle . Sleeping in a down filled bag . Looking forward to hearing others input . David jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > I am going to replace my 17 year old synthetic sleeping bag. ....A friend with > a > lot of experience told me to stay away from a down filled bag because it can > be a bear to dry out. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> choice was the down bag for the following two main reasons , a ) it packs smaller > than a synthetic bag , b ) it is more comfortable over a wider temperature range > than a synthetic bag . It packs *much* smaller - probably 2 times less than same warmth synthetic. I mean - it *can* be packed that small, though this really may cause irreversible shrinkage of volume. >a non issue . Being of the firm belief that everyone he knows has always > managed to keep their toilet paper dry on such outings and it is just as easy to > keep your down sleeping bag dry . Here the necessity to keep it in a drybag luckily coincides with the ease of packing it there, due to small volume. Mine 0 C (30F) down bag packs into supplied nylon sack 8x10" (I think its 7.5x11") and then into 20L drybag together with camping clothing (I don't use compression drybags). Sales clerk showed how to pack it into the sack - tail goes first, than grabbing and showing it in with a fist, rotating the sack. Down bag needs to hang loosely in the closet when not in use (synthetic bags will benefit from this too, I think). > newer synthetic bags are much better than older types because the newer types of > synthetic filler are getting closer to the quality of down filler . Just not > that close yet . Yes, they use hollow synthetic fibers now; still, they are at least twice more bulky than down bags (probably in a compression drybag synthetic bag can be compressed to 1.5 of the size of the same warmth sleeping bag). Unfortunately compression drybags are heavy and don't allow any "give", being stiff as wooden logs when they are compressed. Not that I'm against compression drybags, just some observations. > a personal choice . His main point was that with modern dry bags one should never > have a problem with your bag getting wet and managing that would allow you to use > a down bag if your choose . Well, there is always a possibility to wet it outside the drybag. I mean, tent floor or Thermarest can be wet, or you leave it outside to ventilate in the evening and dew will condensate before you notice that. It won't soak it through, of course. > > states that any bag , synthetic or down , loses 10% of it loft the first time it > is compressed . Loses an additional 2% of loft with each additional compression > and is most damaged by being sat on while compressed . I can believe in the initial 10%, but can't believe in 2%. I don't see that my down bag has lost 50% of loft after 25 semi-compressed packings (using fist and X-small sack, the smallest they had in stock). May be I don't compress it as hard as compression drybag would (and don't need to to be compressed more - it's already compact in the sack). Still, after just 2 years of moderate use down started to ooze out through the fabric. I suspect that fabric qulality is to blame for that rather than frequent compressions. For shorter trips with little supplies and in a medium or high-volume kayak synthetic bag is OK. I support this idea - to get it rated for 30-40 F, with fleece liner to insert in colder nights (or for using fleece as a warm weather sleeping bag). Such contraption will be bulkier than a down bag, of course. Alex. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I camp with both, depending on circumstances. When I kayak or ski camp in the dead of winter and it is unlikely that the bag will be exposed to moisture other than sweat, I use down. Any other time, I use synthetic. A lot of people say that keeping down dry is easy with dry bags. But a lot of the bag's life will spent outside the dry bag. In a rain forest there is so much mositure everywhere that keeping anything dry becomes a challenge. You are not going to be in a rain forest, but for future reference it's worth knowing. If you are sure that a useless bag will not kill you, down is always easier to pack. If there is the chance that the bag can get wet and you will suffer because of that, consider an alternative. In my opinion. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] The main reason I use my down bag (rated to freezing temperatures) more often than synthetic is volume. It packs into 8x10" sack. The lightest synthetic bag would be at least same bulky than this down one, as I've figured out. Though this area (BC, adjacent to WA) has pretty mild temperatures in summer, with nights no more than 60F. When it's hot in the night I just leave it undone. Shops sometimes over-state warmth of sleeping bags by a few degrees (or may be I like it warmer than normal). Make sure you get the one with *full-length* side zipper, btw - no matter will it be "mummy" or "envelope" shape, down or synthetic. Down sure will dry longer than synthetic, but I keep mine in a clothing drybag and so far it didn't have a chance to get wet. Alex. <jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net> asked: > I am going to replace my 17 year old synthetic sleeping bag. I live in > eastern Georgia, USA and mostly weekend camp near the coast. A friend with a > lot of experience told me to stay away from a down filled bag because it can > be a bear to dry out. Since it will be used kayak camping I have been looking > at the polarguard 3D bags. Does this sound like the way to go in such a > relatively warm climate? Typical nights are 55F with a few in the low 30'sF *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Folks: Here is my two cents worth: I really think that synthetic bags are a poor choice for most people. The wetting out issue for down was a real issue in the past, but this is simply not the case anymore. Feathered Friends makes down bags with your choice of Epic, Pertex Endurance, and eVENT waterproof breathable fabrics. Western Mountaineering and many other companies offer Gore Dryloft or really tight water resistant microfiber, and Mountain Hardwear offers a 100% waterproof Conduit bag with taped seams. Synthetic bags are hard to stuff, compress permanently over time, are heavier, have a narrower comfort range, and are less comfortable to sleep in. If someone is incapable of keeping a bag relatively dry, then they really need to question their camping skills. David Jenkins ********************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:21 AM 9/25/2003 -0400, David Jenkins wrote: > Folks: > >Here is my two cents worth: I really think that synthetic bags are a poor >choice for most people. The wetting out issue for down was a real issue in >the past, but this is simply not the case anymore. If someone is >incapable of keeping a bag relatively dry, then they really need to question >their camping skills. > >David Jenkins > > Couldn't disagree more, David. I'm not familiar with all these bags, but I have a Marmot Goretex winter mountaineering bag, which I love and that I don't use for kayak camping. In winter mountaineering (and in summer with only transient dew or rain), down bags can dry out in part because the humidity is low. Kayaking in persistent wet conditions for days on end, everything gets damp if not frankly wet. A wet body, wet long under ware or even sweating will introduce water to down no matter how careful you are about what happens to the outside of the bag. Once damp, it will never dry out but rather will stick together more and more each time you switch camp. The analogy is between a dry tent in summer and a wet snow cave in winter. The only way to dry out a bag in a snow cave is via body heat, and it isn't easy even then. I might use down for short dry summer kayaking trips, but anything in the maritimes or when prolonged wet weather is expected, down is not only not a good idea it may not be safe. I've seen people get out of damp reduced loft down sleeping bags hypothermic after a cold night; I've also experienced the difference between trying to warm up in a dry bag with full loft and a damp bag that is no longer capable of performing at its full warmth rating. Why take a chance? Buy a synthetic bag that is substantially warmer than what you'll need--you'll appreciate it when cold, tired and wet. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If someone is incapable of keeping a bag relatively dry, then they really need to question their camping skills. David Jenkins David: You really threw down the gauntlet here didn't you? It is sort of like saying that a paddler with a great roll doesn't need to worry about self rescue or water temperature, etc. Does it make sense to allow for the worst case? Have you ever been on extended trip in a rain forest? I might counter your statement with the thought that I would question the experience of anyone saying what you did. I recently returned from a 2 week trip in Gwaii Haanas [the Queen Charlotte Islands' national park]. Pure rainy rain forest with moderate temperatures. After being in the rain a lot it was nearly impssible to get into the sleeping bag dry. Or to keep the inside of the tent dry. The "breathable waterproof" shell doesn't do much for the moisture coming off one's body. With a tarp over the tent and fanatical vigilance I could keep everything dry, but the margin for error is pretty fine. Especially in a gale. My Wiggy synthetic bag compresses pretty well and was almost always dry in the morning after I went to bed wearing my wet clothes, my technique for drying them. I can't imagine what that would have done to a down bag, but I wouldn't try it to find out. I think this issue is somewhat like the issue of food on an expedition. Some paddlers enjoy living like ascetics - they appreciate the minimalism of eating beans and rice and nuts and having the same meal over and over. Others like to live the good life and eat better than they would at home. Skinny person that I am, I like to be warm and know that I will be warm tomorrow night, so I use up the extra space with a synthetic bag. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James: I will concede that in some circumstances a synthetic bag may be the best choice, but I still maintain that such is the exception, not the norm. I have never been in a situation where the humidity was so consistently high and the rain so constant that a modern down bag would lose its performance. If you keep the bag in a dry bag, take it out only once your tent and sleeping pad are set up, and stuff it while still inside the tent, it usually stays plenty dry. Using a bag liner or a vapor barrier (depending on the conditions) will also help keep the bag dry. Whether your bag is synthetic or down, keeping the bag dry must be a top priority. When I was less competent at keeping stuff dry, I had occasion to sleep in a damp 0 degree Sierra Designs Primaloft bag (I chose this bag because of my fear of wet down) and it was a chilling and miserable experience. It was my fleece that saved me, not my wet synthetic bag. Dave -----Original Message----- If someone is incapable of keeping a bag relatively dry, then they really need to question their camping skills. David Jenkins David: You really threw down the gauntlet here didn't you? It is sort of like saying that a paddler with a great roll doesn't need to worry about self rescue or water temperature, etc. Does it make sense to allow for the worst case? Have you ever been on extended trip in a rain forest? I might counter your statement with the thought that I would question the experience of anyone saying what you did. I recently returned from a 2 week trip in Gwaii Haanas [the Queen Charlotte Islands' national park]. Pure rainy rain forest with moderate temperatures. After being in the rain a lot it was nearly impssible to get into the sleeping bag dry. Or to keep the inside of the tent dry. The "breathable waterproof" shell doesn't do much for the moisture coming off one's body. With a tarp over the tent and fanatical vigilance I could keep everything dry, but the margin for error is pretty fine. Especially in a gale. My Wiggy synthetic bag compresses pretty well and was almost always dry in the morning after I went to bed wearing my wet clothes, my technique for drying them. I can't imagine what that would have done to a down bag, but I wouldn't try it to find out. I think this issue is somewhat like the issue of food on an expedition. Some paddlers enjoy living like ascetics - they appreciate the minimalism of eating beans and rice and nuts and having the same meal over and over. Others like to live the good life and eat better than they would at home. Skinny person that I am, I like to be warm and know that I will be warm tomorrow night, so I use up the extra space with a synthetic bag. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not sure if anybody mentioned the need to keep *synthetic* bag in a drybag as well. And here lies a problem - even with a $130+ Polarguard Delta the drybag has to be L size (unless you want to compress it to death), and it has to be dedicated "sleeping bag drybag". I, for one, have found this difficulty insurmountable in a Feathercraft folding kayak. There is just no room for that (unless in a short weekend trip). Whenever I left my synthetic bag outside a drybag, it was always wet, not matter what the weather was. Folding kayaks don't have dry cargo bulkheads, and whatever water gets into cockpit, it goes freely along the keelsen from bow to stern. Newest Polar-Delta bags are smaller than my old synthetic bag, merely twice bigger than my down bag :-); and they cost merely 50% more than that down bag (about $90 paid 2 years ago). So.. whenever I'm using my hardshell kayak, I wrap old and bulky synthetic bag into garbage bag (would be too much honor for him to stay in a separate drybag *and* in a dry bulkhead). Really, don't know why would I like to replace it with 10% better Polar-Delta bag :-). Will better buy myself a fancy paddle :-) Alex. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex said: even with a $130+ Polarguard Delta the drybag has to be L size (unless you want to compress it to death), and it has to be dedicated "sleeping bag drybag". I, for one, have found this difficulty insurmountable in a Feathercraft folding kayak. I recently returned from a 14 day paddle in the Queen Charlotte Islands in my Feathercraft K-1. I carried all my own stuff - sleeping bag, tent, clothes - as well as the tarp and all the food for three people for the whole trip. Also stoves, fuel, cook kit, two full Dromedary bags, water filter and repair kit. The secret is to carry a long, thin dry bag on the back deck. The dry bag with my sleeping bag easily fit in the boat. It is a Seattle Sports compression dry bag. If I had done this trip alone I would have had provisions for six weeks. The Queen Charlottes are true rain forest, so rain gear was part of the deal, as was the concern about keeping the sleeping bag dry. No problem with a synthetic bag [Wiggy's] and the compression dry bag. I can't imagine a Feathercraft K-1 being so tight on room that a dry bag for the sleeping bag is a problem. Unless, perhaps, you're talking about Khatsalano. But I was on a three week trip in Greenland a few years ago with a person who had one and she had plenty of room without any bags on deck. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:05 AM 9/26/2003 -0400, David Jenkins wrote: >I >have never been in a situation where the humidity was so consistently high >and the rain so constant that a modern down bag would lose its performance. You may be right about using down under the conditions you paddle. Just like a down pillow is more comfortable than a synthetic pillow, down wins if there's no reason to use a synthetic bag. But a down bag would've been a disaster during three weeks this summer on the south coast of Newfoundland. Daily rain and continuous dense fog, winds most days 25+ with gusts to 50-60 knots, and still wonderful albeit very wet. I am an experienced winter mountaineer, climber and backpacker and use a Bibler tent that is dry dry dry compared to tents with a fly. Despite all this experience and state-of-the art gear, there's no chance I could have kept a down bag dry. Everything got wet, despite being very careful. Heck, we had to wear dry suits (water 45 F) and sweat drenched fleece alone brought a fair bit of drip into the tent. But I never slept cold or had any trouble loading a Marmot synthetic bag stuffed into a Sealine Black Canyon stuff sack into the rear hatch of a P&H Quest. And this is with a months worth of gear, and nothing on the deck. Two friends did much the same in NDK Explorers. Good discussion though. I may get a down bag for overnights on the North Carolina coast in my Pintail. Can always paddle home if it gets wet <grin>. Again, again we come and go, changed, changing. Hands join, unjoin in love and fear, grief and joy. The circles turn, each giving into each, into all. Wendell Berry ********************************************************* John S. March, MD, MPH Professor and Chief, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Duke Child and Family Study Center 718 Rutherford Street Durham, NC 27705 919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F) Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad ********************************************************* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Using a bag liner or a vapor barrier (depending on the conditions) will also help keep the bag dry. Isn't the point of a vapour barrier to keep your warm body vapour in the bag, thus reducing heat loss? Would that not increase the humidity of the insulating sleeping bag and thus rule out the use of a down bag over prolonged successive nights? (Assuming that there may not be drying conditions between sleeping bag uses.) I have not used one, just trying to understand the principle. Marvin --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/03 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 27 Sep 2003 at 20:00, Marvin & Janet Hamm wrote: > Isn't the point of a vapour barrier to keep your warm body vapour in > the bag, thus reducing heat loss? That's a secondary use. To be comfortable, it works best when the air is quite dry - like cold winter air. > Would that not increase the > humidity of the insulating sleeping bag and thus rule out the use of a > down bag over prolonged successive nights? The vapour barrier goes on the inside of the bag, not the outside. It does the same thing as a vapour barrier in your home - it keeps the insulation dry. This is it's primary use. If you camp in below-freezing conditions without a vapour barrier, the vapour will condense inside the insulation. Pack up your gear and the condensed water will freeze. Several nights of this and you no longer have a sleeping bag, but a popsicle. IIRC, it was a combined Canada-Russia trans-polar ski expedition that showed the effectiveness of this. The Canadians had vapour barriers and the Russians did not. The latter suffered from constantly wet sleeping bags. This was aggravated by the fact that the humidity on the Arctic ice cap in summer hovers around 100% even though the temps are slightly below freezing! Nothing dries out, sores on your skin don't heal etc. Not many of us would have to worry about a vapour barrier for kayaking. They are not so useful in warm weather. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Isn't the point of a vapour barrier to keep your warm body vapour in the bag, thus reducing heat loss? Would that not increase the humidity of the insulating sleeping bag and thus rule out the use of a down bag over prolonged successive nights? Marvin I use a vapor barrier on really cold nights, well below freezing, all the time. I am a very cold sleeper who will sweat a lot when too warm. The vapor barrier, strangely, does not get wet inside when I sleep. I have never tried getting into it with wet clothes to dry them, as I do with other sleeping systems. I know nothing about physics or anything else that might explain how this works, but it does. I prefer to use a heavy fleece liner, but sometimes weight and space require the minimalist vapor barrier. It is a convenient backup to have along. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm>: > I use a vapor barrier on really cold nights, well below freezing, all the > time. I am a very cold sleeper who will sweat a lot when too warm. The > vapor barrier, strangely, does not get wet inside when I sleep. I have > never tried getting into it with wet clothes to dry them, as I do with > other sleeping systems. > > I know nothing about physics or anything else that might explain how this > works, but it does. I prefer to use a heavy fleece liner, but sometimes > weight and space require the minimalist vapor barrier. It is a > convenient backup to have along. > It's not a matter of physics as much as it is physiology. The body strives to maintain a constant level of humidity around it, so when you use a vapor barrier liner (VBL), your body reduces its production of insensible perspiration (water vapor) to maintain that humidity. Since water vapor contains heat (otherwise, it would appear as frost!), using a VBL prevents the loss of that heat while at the same time it keeps your body moisture out of the sleeping bag insulation. For me the level of humidity in a VBL feels like that in a bathroom after a hot shower. I never feel wet inside (unless I get too warm), and my skin feels dry as soon as I slip out of the bag in the morning. The only thing I wear inside the VBL is polypro underwear, since I don't want moisture to accumulate in my clothing. Wet clothing inside a VBL would not dry out. Once, on a beginner's winter camping trip, I used my VBL while sleeping next to a woman who was using two sleeping bags and no VBL. When I woke in the morning, my bag was wet with her perspiration where her outer bag touched mine, but otherwise mine was quite dry. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I love my Sierra Designs 3D bag. It's warm enough for 20 degree nights, and compressible enough to fit through the hatch of my Chesapeake 17. I think down is the best insulation when dry, but I've had enough experience with water getting into tents during rainstorms, in spite of tarps, trenches, etc. to decide that down is too risky for my normal camping needs. If I had enough money, I'd probably buy another bag - down - for those times when lightness and compressibility were paramount, and wetness was not a potential problem, but I don't so I haven't. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Buy a synthetic > bag that is substantially warmer than what you'll need-- Good point - to get it warmer (according to official rating) than you need. Another alternative would be to get a fleece liner (then bag has to be roomier). Refraining from advocating down VS synthetic (better to have both kinds), official temperature ratings are approximate and tolerance to cold is subjective. Besides, you need it warmer when tired or hungry. Alex. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have owned and used both types, but have never used a down bag in a coastal climate paddling environment. I agree with the synthetic folks on the better suitability of synthetics in a rain forest environment. Plus, it is just not very cold, even in winter, in the temperate forest-clad slopes of BC, WA, OR (or CA). Inland paddlers have perhaps a good rationale for down when the air temp dips into the 'teens and lower. I've ski-toured with a down bag (a lot!) and though it works well in our wet mountains (Cascades and Olympics) for a one- or two-nighter, on longer trips body moisture and tent condensation reduce the effectiveness of down substantially, whether using snow shelters or tents. Drying a down bag in our mountains is a laughable proposition -- when is there a dry, sunny day? Again, in an inland climate with very low humidity, down would be a reasonable choice. All bags lose loft with successive compressions -- so store yours uncompressed. And, retire the sucker when it's no longer thick enough! My down bags lasted much longer than synthetics, FWIW. Lastly, no one has addressed the issue of cost: there, synthetics win hands down (yuck!). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"David Jenkins" <davej_at_acanet.org> wrote: >> I will concede that in some circumstances a synthetic bag may be the best choice, but I still maintain that such is the exception, not the norm. I have never been in a situation where the humidity was so consistently high and the rain so constant that a modern down bag would lose its performance. If you keep the bag in a dry bag, take it out only once your tent and sleeping pad are set up, and stuff it while still inside the tent, it usually stays plenty dry. >> David, this Dave must paddle in places very different from where you paddle. As Tibensky's notes, a rain forest multiday trip almost surely mandates some damp sleeping unless one is fanatical about excluding moisture. Yeah, at the end of two weeks of rain, my TP is still dry, but my synthetic bag is usually a leetle damp ... and others who paddle with me feel I am obsessive about keeping clothing and sleeping gear dry. I am sure I could succeed with a down bag, but given "stuff" happens (leaky dry bag, leaky tent while you are away, the dog vomits on it [grin]), my defacto choice is synthetic __where I paddle__. Where do you paddle? After two weeks of every-day rain, how is your bag? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We use Seal Line tapered drybags for our sleeping bags. They have a cap near the apex that allows you to purge air by crushing the bag after it's closed, for a great fit into the nose or tail of the boat. I admit that it takes some work to get the sleeping bag in there, particularly stuffing the point -- but it's worth it for the way it fits into the kayak. The Seal Line tapered bag I use is coated nylon, so I might not trust a sleeping bag in it in a boat with no watertight hatch (although the bag was fine on one occasion when I failed to close my hatch cover completely). In a flolder or SOF or another boat without a bulkhead, it would be prudent to wrap the drybag tightly (for space) in a large garbage bag. Bob Volin (Usual disclaimer -- no connection to Seal Line) > I'm not sure if anybody mentioned the need to keep *synthetic* bag in a > drybag as well. And here lies a problem - even with a $130+ Polarguard > Delta the drybag has to be L size (unless you want to compress it to death), > and it has to be dedicated "sleeping bag drybag". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex <al.m_at_3web.net> wrote: >> I'm not sure if anybody mentioned the need to keep *synthetic* bag in a drybag as well. And here lies a problem - even with a $130+ Polarguard Delta the drybag has to be L size (unless you want to compress it to death), and it has to be dedicated "sleeping bag drybag". I, for one, have found this difficulty insurmountable in a Feathercraft folding kayak. There is just no room for that (unless in a short weekend trip). >> Know the problem. My SO and I have been using the following approach for 10 years or so. It only works if you have a large enough portal/hatch to pass a large drybag (16 " x 33" flat dimensions). We stuff the bag into a close-fitting nylon stuff sack (need not be waterproof, but we use waterproof in case the drybag leaks) and slide it down one side of the dry bag. Then we stuff socks, spare shirts and other small items along the other side to make the drybag form a skewed oval cross section, at the same time compressing the sleeping bag somewhat. A couple other items of camp clothing (not paddling clothing -- which is almost always damp) go on top, rolled and placed to maintain the oval cross section. Then we lay the dry bag on a hard surface and plump onto it belly-down to exclude as much air as possible. [This looks for all the world as if you are enjoying an intimate moment with the drybag, and is good for lots of tittering from companions the first couple times they see it!] The top is rolled closed while we are on top of it, and then the bag is __quickly__ transported to the kayak and slid into place. This works in most rear hatches, and will also pass through the rear frame of my folding single (Folbot Kodiak). You have to pre-pack other goodies aft of this drybag, and other items can be jammed alongside it to take up the gaps that remain on either side. We have also use the system Bob Volin detailed (tapered drybag), but agree with Bob a single layer of coated nylon is not enough security for our sleeping system. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Early in my winter ski mountaineering career I spent two nights in a wet sleeping bag. The first was in a syn. bag and the second in a down bag. The syn. bag was far superior. I use a synthetic bag for sea kayaking and chose a variety that stuffs smaller than polarguard. I also use MEC dry stuff-sacs. MEC uses nylon on the outer surface, which slides more easily into tight spots. For those with more serious space constraints, try making your own stuff-sacs from coated nylon, which can be heat-sealed using an iron. I ordered some from Seattle Fabrics. One can make a sac that precisely fits the available space. Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a down bag that was given to me Xmas of 1973. It was made by a company in Nevada City, CA called Black Forest, which no longer exists. I literally had, until about 3 years ago, used the heck out of this bag and I still use it for guests. I suppose I have washed it about 5 times over the years with down soap from REI. Doug Jensen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You don't trust a nylon drybag? But there is no choice, vinyl ones are even less reliable. Why wrap the drybag into garbage bag, and not vice versa (i.e. to wrap sleeping bag into garbage bag or nylon stuff sack and then into drybag)? > The Seal > Line tapered bag I use is coated nylon, so I might not trust a sleeping bag > in it in a boat with no watertight hatch (although the bag was fine on one > occasion when I failed to close my hatch cover completely). In a flolder or > SOF or another boat without a bulkhead, it would be prudent to wrap the > drybag tightly (for space) in a large garbage bag. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
alex said (snip): >I'm not sure if anybody mentioned the need to keep *synthetic* bag in a drybag as well. And here lies a problem - even with a $130+ Polarguard Delta the drybag has to be L size (unless you want to compress it to death), and it has to be dedicated "sleeping bag drybag". I, for one, have found this difficulty insurmountable in a Feathercraft folding kayak.< I feel your pain. Yeah, some situations are difficult to find a workable solution. In my watertight but volume-challenged Nordkapp, I've resigned myself to middle-of-the-road priced synthetic bags which I replace every few years due to cumulative-compression fibre-collapse (err, something like that). Not that I don't store my bags correctly between uses, it's just that I need to compress these suckers to get enough other space available in the compartments. I use a non-waterproof compression bag in conjunction with a good old garbage bag. I roll the top of the garbage bag tightly, then pull hard on the three compression straps. I've holed the boat a few times with consequent leakage, but the sleeping bag in the one incident I'm referring to, didn't suffer any wet-water infusion into the fibres or outer fabric (is water ever not wet?). I'm a hot-sleeper, wet camper, inclement-weather seeker, so a synthetic bag is a must for me - a prime requisite. I used to be a hunter, and spent many nights in cold, northern BC in the off-season, but found a Down bag to be excellent, if a little chilly on the bottom layer. If I had kept up that lifestyle, I would have probably invested in a bag with down on top and synthetic underneath, which compresses less from body weight. I did suffer once with a synthetic bag, namely on an ill-fated off season trip. My first night off the ferry in Bella Bella was in an unused First Nation's longhouse (with permission). Minus 5 Celsius with cold glacier-fed winds throughout the night, in a not very air-tight cedar-clad structure. I'd had brought my summer bag and thought I was going to darn well freeze. The bag was lofting well, as it was fairly new, but even with all my extra fleece on, it was a very unrestfull night. The extra-clothing trick didn't work very well either, at least from a comfort level, as everything compresses tight around you from too many clothing layers...circulation impairment under the arms, etc. I gained a new respect for the centuries old inhabitant generation succession of native peoples who thrived here. During the day it was cold and wet; each subsequent following night was wet, with snow, frost, and streams forming under the tents at night. I would have given anything for my thicker synthetic bag, or the adjunctive liner I had eyed in the store, just before the trip. At least I faired better than one of the other paddlers who had brought along a vintage, tattered department-store variety, rectangular-cut summer bag. I think my summer synthetic bag, though cool, was at least a mummy style bag which gave the ability to cover head and shoulders. The resultant effect of too many cold nights on the other paddler in question contributed to a bizarre unfolding of events that finally added up to some very poor decision making and a rescue. The choice, use, and technical aspects of one's bag IS important. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC (where summer just will not end) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I can't imagine a Feathercraft K-1 being so tight on room that a dry bag > for the sleeping bag is a problem. Unless, perhaps, you're talking about > Khatsalano. It's 14.9 ft Kahuna, shorter than K-1. I think I could fit a compression drybag with synthetic bag when I don't have floatation bags and when I don't carry much water and/or when my aft storage room isn't split by a mast going through the rear hatch. Perhaps my case is not typical, I shouldn't have grumbled :-). Doug has given a good advice - to use mid-price synthetic bag and replace it every few years when it will die of compression. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:35 PDT