Paddlewisers, I just got back from a week long Catalina Island trip in Southern California (http://www.rollordrown.com/cat04/). Two of the paddlers on the trip had skeg boats, which we now refer to as skeg jammers, because both of them had skeg jamming problems, one of them repeatedly. It seems that many of the beaches around the island have pebbles that are the perfect size for jamming skegs, so we nicknamed the island Skeg Jammer Island. The skeg jammer boats were Kajak Sport and Nigel Foster, which are actually very good boats. But don't tell me (especially after this trip) that skegs are more reliable than rudders. I don't paddle rudder boats anymore, because I like to suffer more when I paddle, but when I did have rudders, they never gave me any problems. There was skeg jamming paranoia on the trip, with guys launching straddling the kayak and with the kayak turned backwards to avoid jams. The quote of the trip was, "There's nothing like a skeg that works in the morning," which was said after managing to launch without jamming the skeg. Despite all of the skeg problems, I'd still choose a skeg boat over a rudder boat (the suffering thing), but I would by no means rely on the skeg, especially on a trip. It's too bad there aren't more kayak designs that don't need a skeg or rudder. Interestingly, there was such a boat on the trip, and due it being loaded bow heavy, resulting in excessive weather cocking and broaching during a crossing, a tow line had to be used for a while to keep it going straight. I do propose that as an industry standard all skeg jammer boats should have recesses on the deck above the skeg to hold a pair of needle nose pliers and a butter knife. Duane Strosaker *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker said: > > I do propose that as an industry standard all skeg jammer > boats should have recesses on the deck above the skeg to hold > a pair of needle nose pliers and a butter knife. > Duane, Not a bad idea. However I picked up two tips on Paddlewise that have (so far) enabled me to avoid the dreaded "jammed skeg" that can't be freed. The first is a tool that Steve Scherer told me about. In fact, they give one to everyone who purchases a skegged boat at his shop. They take a stainless steel butter knife and grind it so it looks like a climber's nut tool (picture of one at http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=1033&storeId=8000&c atalogId=40000008000&langId=-1&color=&img=/largeimages/471460.jpg&view=large &vcat=REI_SEARCH). Then drill a hole in the handle and attach a short wrist loop on it and you can hand it to your partner so he can free your skeg while you are on the water. The other technique that I was taught, was to drill a small hole in the skeg and tie a short loop in it so it can be grabbed and the skeg pulled down when necessary. The loop on mine hangs down about 1/2 inch so it shouldn't ever get caught on anything in the water. If it does, I would have felt it grinding along my hull first. So far, I've only had my skeg jam once when I received some unwanted help from a 300 pound woman who decided I needed a push to launch (I was still fastening my skirt). She put all her weight on my boat's stern and pushed me across a few feet of small gravel. The Scherer Skeg Removal Implement worked wonders and my skeg was soon functional. Next time we paddle together, I won't even charge to show it to you (gr). Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve The link that you gave is to REI, not to Steve Scherer's company - plus it's an outdated page. Please try again - I really wanted to see the picture, since one of my kayaks does have a skeg. I've never had any trouble with it, but I should probably bite my tongue as I say that. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joan said: > The link that you gave is to REI, not to Steve Scherer's > company - plus it's an outdated page. Please try again - I > really wanted to see the picture, since one of my kayaks does > have a skeg. I've never had any trouble with it, but I > should probably bite my tongue as I say that. Joan, The link was to a picture of a climber's nut tool that REI sells. It is the same shape as the home made skeg tools that Steve Scherer makes but more expensive. The link to Steve's company is http://www.aldercreek.com/ Since the link didn't work in my previous message, if you need to see one, just go to REI and do a search for climber's nut tool and you'll see one. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here is a link to the nut tool I carry available from REI: http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=1028&storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&langId=-1&color=&img=/largeimages/471351.jpg&view=large&vcat=REI_SEARCH I've made a couple from butter knives but they were heavy and corroded quickly once the plating was ground away. The Black Diamond tool is cheap, durable, and lightweight. Attach a small wrist lanyard and you can stuff the tool in a variety of places in your cockpit or vest. I paddle a skeg equipped WS T-165 and live in the Rockies. I have had no problem with a skeg blade being stuck with a pebble but I'm very conscious of the potential hazard. Most of my put-ins are stern first and I always check skeg operation just before I climb in. This becomes SOP when you paddle in the rocky rivers and lakes that I do. Regards, ~~Holmes Joan Volin <jvolin_at_optonline.net> wrote: Steve The link that you gave is to REI, not to Steve Scherer's company - plus it's an outdated page. Please try again - I really wanted to see the picture, since one of my kayaks does have a skeg. I've never had any trouble with it, but I should probably bite my tongue as I say that. Joan Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 13, 2004, at 3:51 PM, Strosaker wrote: > Paddlewisers, > > I just got back from a week long Catalina Island trip in Southern > California > (http://www.rollordrown.com/cat04/). Two of the paddlers on the trip > had > skeg boats, which we now refer to as skeg jammers, because both of > them had > skeg jamming problems, one of them repeatedly. It seems that many of > the > beaches around the island have pebbles that are the perfect size for > jamming > skegs, so we nicknamed the island Skeg Jammer Island. > <snip> > I do propose that as an industry standard all skeg jammer boats should > have > recesses on the deck above the skeg to hold a pair of needle nose > pliers and > a butter knife. People around here are drilling a small hole at the tip of their skegs so they can tie a loop of monofilament throught. This provides a loop to let your buddy pull the skeg free when it jams. It certainly does not solve the problem, but it may make the tool requirements less. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Jun 13, 2004, at 3:51 PM, Strosaker wrote: > Paddlewisers, > > I just got back from a week long Catalina Island trip in Southern > California > (http://www.rollordrown.com/cat04/). Two of the paddlers on the trip > had > skeg boats, which we now refer to as skeg jammers, because both of > them had > skeg jamming problems, one of them repeatedly. It seems that many of > the > beaches around the island have pebbles that are the perfect size for > jamming > skegs, so we nicknamed the island Skeg Jammer Island. > <snip> > I do propose that as an industry standard all skeg jammer boats should > have > recesses on the deck above the skeg to hold a pair of needle nose > pliers and > a butter knife. People around here are drilling a small hole at the tip of their skegs so they can tie a loop of monofilament throught. This provides a loop to let your buddy pull the skeg free when it jams. It certainly does not solve the problem, but it may make the tool requirements less. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve's link is to a tool that REI sells. Unfortunately, not all of the link pasted successfully into his email. Click on the link below and see if you can see what you want. If there's a problem, just go to the REI website (www.rei.com) and do a search for Wild Country Nut Key. http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?productId=1033&storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&langId=-1&color=&img=/largeimages/471460.jpg&view=large&vcat=REI_SEARCH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Volin" <jvolin_at_optonline.net> > Steve > > The link that you gave is to REI, not to Steve Scherer's company - plus it's > an outdated page. Please try again - I really wanted to see the picture, > since one of my kayaks does have a skeg. I've never had any trouble with > it, but I should probably bite my tongue as I say that. > > Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>It's too bad there aren't more kayak designs that don't need a skeg or rudder. Interestingly, there was such a boat on the trip, and due it being loaded bow heavy, resulting in excessive weather cocking and broaching during a crossing, a tow line had to be used for a while to keep it going straight. this is the problem with boats that 'don't need a skeg or rudder'. The simple matter of balancing a boat to 'conditions' and course is quite involved, taking wind speed and direction, intended course, boat trim, swell direction, etc. into consideration. just being off a little with this balancing equation can be a nightmare. skegs and rudders make this 'balancing act' as EZ as deploying the device. Many times I have seen experienced paddlers in boats that 'don't need no stinkin' rudder or skeg' have all kinds of issues when the wind kicked up. The boats WILL find it's weather balance point, and sometimes it ain't where YOU want to go. steve http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/nuttools.htm this is similar to the shape of the tool I make. I don't make it quite as 'hooked' and the stainless tableware I pick (thrift stores) are quite corrosion resistant. when grinding be careful not to overheat the knife. steve aldercreek.com http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oh boy is THIS topic near and dear to my heart, especially recently. I have had a kayak full of problems with the skeg on my Gulfstream 2000, in spite of being extra careful to keep it clean. I thoroughly enjoy the boat, but, if I were ever to go on a very long trip away from any kind of civilization I doubt if I would take a skeg boat. I check the skeg every time I take off, but sometimes a rock or pebble gets in it at a beach launch. It's no fun to find out in the middle of the ocean, as the wind picks up, that your skeg has gone kaput. Apparently skeg problems are quite common on this model. I found out that Current Designs will give you a free retrofit kit to upgrade the skeg. At least that's what they told me a few weeks ago, but I have yet to receive the kit. I suggest that Gulfstream owners call the company and have them send you the kit. It's got to be better than what is in it now. Raphael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Raphael said: > Oh boy is THIS topic near and dear to my heart, especially > recently. I have had a kayak full of problems with the skeg > on my Gulfstream 2000, in spite of being extra careful to > keep it clean. I thoroughly enjoy the boat, but, if I were > ever to go on a very long trip away from any kind of > civilization I doubt if I would take a skeg boat. I check > the skeg every time I take off, but sometimes a rock or > pebble gets in it at a beach launch. It's no fun to find out > in the middle of the ocean, as the wind picks up, that your > skeg has gone kaput. Raphael, I'm not sure how CD changed their skeg designs beside adding the rod and shortening the length of the adjustment on the "newer" skegs, but my 1998 GS (with the old cable type adjustment) has been relatively trouble free. The biggest problems I had is that when someone tries to use it who is not familiar with skegs tries to use it, they seem to always want to pull out instead of sliding it forwards or backwards. This leads to kinked cables and that causes problems to multiply. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, Once a buddy's skeg was jammed, and he had a string tied to it. I pulled on the string, and the skeg was jammed so tight that when I was finally able to pull it loose, I accidentally yanked the skeg down farther than it is supposed to go, causing the screw at the adjustment knob to become stripped on the cable. For the rest of the crossing, I had to occasionally reach under the stern and manually adjust the skeg as conditions changed. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Life would be some much more simplier if people just went back to a rudder. I realize many people "pooh, pooh" rudders. But? Don't have the problems of it sticking and it doesn't interfere with packing my boat for trips. I guess you can call me "old school"! Kirby -----Original Message----- Paddlewisers, Once a buddy's skeg was jammed, and he had a string tied to it. I pulled on the string, and the skeg was jammed so tight that when I was finally able to pull it loose, I accidentally yanked the skeg down farther than it is supposed to go, causing the screw at the adjustment knob to become stripped on the cable. For the rest of the crossing, I had to occasionally reach under the stern and manually adjust the skeg as conditions changed. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby, As a rudder boat paddler, your motto could be, "Don't need no stinkin' butter knife!" Duane Southern California ----- Original Message ----- From: "K Stevens" <K_Stevens_at_telus.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Skeg Jammers > Life would be some much more simplier if people just went back to a rudder. > > I realize many people "pooh, pooh" rudders. But? > > Don't have the problems of it sticking and it doesn't interfere with packing > my boat for trips. > > I guess you can call me "old school"! > > Kirby *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby wrote: - >Life would be some much more simplier >if people just went back to a rudder. >I realize many people "pooh, pooh" >rudders. But?.............. G'Day Kirby and Paddlewise, I don't mind a rudder if its fixed well below the deckline as in the Mirage and I think the Storm kayaks. But still remember the relief when i got rid of my rudder, which was forever catching the wind unless I deployed it and wasn't particularly effective as it didn't sit much below the water in bigger following sea. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (including headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Steve, Yes, the Current Design rep said that that has been a major problem, people sticking their hands through the slide and pulling out. The rod mechanism is supposed to address this problem and make cable kinking less likely. I hope so. I'll let everyone know how it goes (once Current Designs sends the stuff to me!). Rafa --- Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net> wrote: > > I'm not sure how CD changed their skeg designs > beside adding the rod and > shortening the length of the adjustment on the > "newer" skegs, but my 1998 GS > (with the old cable type adjustment) has been > relatively trouble free. > > The biggest problems I had is that when someone > tries to use it who is not > familiar with skegs tries to use it, they seem to > always want to pull out > instead of sliding it forwards or backwards. This > leads to kinked cables and > that causes problems to multiply. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think there will ever be an end to the skeg vs. ruder debate. It's personal preference. Certainly a lot of good paddling had been done in both designs. I have paddled both over the years and my preference is skegs. In my experience skegs are reliable, the environment I paddle in, salt water and sandy beaches in by no means friendly to moving mechanical parts. However my problems with skeg jams have been limited to one bad experience in the three years that I have paddled my current boat, a Kayak Sport Millennium. That bad experience was more due to my inexperience with the skeg, than blame on the boat. In this particular incident I jammed it on a pebbly beach at the start of a week-long camping trip. I tried to unjam it by forcing the skeg control and ended up unjaming it, but damaging the cable that controls the skeg, later the skeg just fell out and I was forced to due the remainder of the trip without the benefit of a skeg. In the end it just meant a few stern rudders and some sweep stokes and it wasn't really an issue. I now have a small cord tied to my skeg and when it jams I have friend pull on the cord to unjam it, this method has worked well and I really have had no complaints. For the record I don't recommend fishing line, it's too hard to find and grip while your boat is on the water. Additionally you should have enough line for someone to get a firm grip. I also carry a pair of pliers and a knife in my day hatch in case a really nasty jam occurs. On camping trips I carry a spare skeg and control mechanism in case disaster strikes. One thing that rarely gets mentioned is that while rudders fail less often, then can be more catistrpic. If a cable breaks its possible that you will lose your foot pegs and your ability to brace will be compromised. I would much rather deal with stern rudders and sweeps than no foot pegs. Certainly properly maintained cables are reliable, but when sand and salt are involved anything can happen. In the end lots of people use rudders, and lots use skegs. They both work well. It's just a matter of preference. Skegjammer Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Skegjammer Dave said: > I now have a small cord tied to my skeg and > when it jams I have friend pull on the cord to unjam it, this > method has worked well and I really have had no complaints. > For the record I don't recommend fishing line, it's too hard > to find and grip while your boat is on the water. > Additionally you should have enough line for someone to get a > firm grip. I also carry a pair of pliers and a knife in my > day hatch in case a really nasty jam occurs.................. ....................... > One thing that rarely gets mentioned is that while rudders > fail less often, they can be more catastrophic. If a cable > breaks its possible that you will lose your foot pegs and > your ability to brace will be compromised. I would much > rather deal with stern rudders and sweeps than no foot pegs. > Skegjammer Dave Dave, I absolutely agree with you about the fishing line. My skeg has a loop of very soft (easy on the fingers) 1/8" cord on it. The loop is just big enough to comfortably insert an index finger so it can be pulled. Like you, the thought of losing my pedals, scares me much more than the thought of losing the skeg. So far the Steve S Skeg Repair Implement (SSRI) has been all that I need, but I too carry a Leatherman in my emergency bag. My SSRI is obviously of inferior quality because mine is starting to show some signs of corrosion after 3 years of exposure to salt water. I guess it's time to get the old grinding wheel out again. See ya on the water, and congratulations on yet another successful crossing to Catalina. Steve Holtzman Southern, CA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:45:26 EDT, DLOCPA_at_aol.com said: > I don't think there will ever be an end to the skeg vs. ruder debate. > It's personal preference. <snip> > One thing that rarely gets mentioned is that while rudders fail less often, > then can be more catistrpic. If a cable breaks its possible that you > will lose your foot pegs and your ability to brace will be compromised. I would > much rather deal with stern rudders and sweeps than no foot pegs. Certainly > properly maintained cables are reliable, but when sand and salt are > involved anything can happen. A 'decent' rudder setup has fixed pegs where either a portion of the pedal moves and controls the rudder, the whole foot pedal pivots on fixed peg, or there is a separate rudder control between the paddlers feet (basically a stick that is moved side to side to control the rudder). SealLine has pictures online of their fixed pedal rudder control. In their solution the heel is fixed and the toe section moves. http://www.seallinegear.com/smarttrack_footcontrol.asp It's a shame some manufacturers are still putting in sliding footpeg controls for their rudders. There are far better solutions. kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk Olsen wrote: > SealLine has pictures online of their fixed pedal rudder control. In > their solution the heel > is fixed and the toe section moves. > http://www.seallinegear.com/smarttrack_footcontrol.asp I'm building a double kayak that will probably need a rudder sometime soon. I was thinking of installing this rudder system. Does it seem like the foot pedals or rails were a little bit flexible or weak? I was trying to find an honest review, but they are hard to find on the Internet. For example: http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=987 http://www.seallinegear.com/seakayaker_review.asp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water? Cheers, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:54 AM 6/15/2004 +1000, Peter Treby wrote: >What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water? >Cheers, PT Hi Peter, Try as I might, I can only imagine a shore landing if nearby. Although it hasn't yet happened to me, I think I would be glad my skeg-equipped boats are all well enough designed to respond to leans, sweep strokes and other more radical moves to keep the bow on course. As I gain more experience with paddling (and there's no end in site to improvement for me), I find I only use my skeg to alleviate the extra effort in troubling conditions. This is a second-rate answer, I know. I can't imagine a pulley system and string leading to the cockpit... designed to divert the force, so a paddler can loosen the skeg. Think it can be done? Might jam too easily at the launch, eh? Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tom wrote: - >Although it hasn't yet happened to me, I >think I would be glad my skeg-equipped boats >are all well enough designed to respond to >leans, sweep strokes and other more radical >moves to keep the bow on course. G'Day Tom and Paddlewise, I have an adjustable "Valley" skeg fitted to my boat and it jammed landing on a beach recently. I've never had problems with pebbles but in this instance the wire kinked and jammed the skeg in the half down position. I had been told that you could land on beaches with this skeg down and that it would just knock up into its recess. Guess I've learn't the hard way its not a good idea! Normally I hadn't been using the skeg much but for the last few weeks I've been forced to use the boat with the skeg half down. Its actually pretty good. The manoeuverability hasn't significantly changed because when I edge the boat the skeg is angled and not acting as a brake in the water. Also surfing 20knot wind waves is much better, though I'm told the skeg will tend to flip the boat if I broach while surfing into a beach, because the power in the waves is significantly greater. I will get it fixed though. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You don't know? All solo paddlers have bomb proof rolls and practice yoga when they aren't paddling! Kirby -----Original Message----- From: Peter Treby Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Skeg Jammers What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter T posted: >What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water?< I believe Leon Somme made mention in the recent Iceland Expedition interview in Adventure Kayaking Magazine the fact that he has been know to perform a re-entry and roll to get back in his kayak after fixing a jammed skeg. This was assumed to be in reference to solo trips (and not in connection with his Iceland trip with Shawna and Chris D.). I've had to do the same thing after experiencing rudder difficulties. In my case, the rudder was stuck with the right pedal pushed down. Due to the acute angle of the rudder at the stern causing the kayak to turn starboard, I could not raise the rudder out of the water (in fact, it did come out part way, but still in the water, which is almost as bad). This is particular to my heavily modified VCP rudder. Most normal rudders would slip up and over onto the deck, I imagine, with a tug on the haul-up line. I've not had to do this in extreme conditions (i.e. rough water where the thought of an unsuccessful re-enter and roll is less comfortable, but have done so in a tide race once it muted a bit, and no, I should not have been using the rudder in currents). I do remember one memorable trip down the west coast of Vancouver Island with a couple of fellow paddlers who both had skegged kayaks. There was an ongoing war of words and ideology over those in the religious right (me, with my ruddered Nordkapp) and the lefties with their liberal skegs). Discussion and snide commentary was rather effusive for days on end, with the religious zealot smirking his way off of every beach for three days straight along one section, where the aggregate-size of the pebbles was divinely created to jam all skegged craft. All manner of kayak-launching was used, but to no avail. The rudder fanatic's Leatherman was used continuously (a nice stainless steel model). Blood pressures of the skeg guys rose dramatically, which was odd given the healthy venue of glorious oceanic surroundings. I even saw a few paddles throw into the air in abject frustration and states of absolute disgrace. All humility was restored to the smug, rudder-equipped kayak devotee, when upon rounding Cape Clerk later in the week in some truly inspired seas through a minefield of widely-dispersed offshore boulders (one might say an aggregate of a more biblical proportion), his rudder cable connecter snapped due to dissimilar metal interaction combined with heavy bracing. The two under-hull finned paddlers were unable to lend immediate assistance, as they were pre-occupied clawing their way over 8-foot breaking boomers. A re-entry and roll, post rudder-fix was not contemplated. The offending rudder was causing a severe shoreward turn, not the place one wanted to go, unless one truly wanted to get close to God. A few good whacks with the paddle to the rudder, and a bit of prying with a nice Lendal plastic bladed paddle, combined with vigorous yanking on a stout up-hall line between sets, finally saved the day. A choir of heavenly creatures were heard singing a refrain of "Damn stinking rudders." Sadly, the rudder is still used to this very day, while the paddler in question awaits conversion and fostering by Nigel "only-need-a-stinking-paddle" Foster. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Doug, Thanks for this reply. I posed the question for two reasons. First, I might have done a deal to trade up to another boat, by selling mine to someone waiting in the queue, and having another one made by the same maker. The craftsman will now include a skeg, which I am considering. On some legs, my rudderless boat is troublesome, and maybe the skeg would be worth the sacrifice of storage space and convenience, and the extra weight. I am undecided on this, I very much like simplicity, but I hate it when paddlers with ruddered boats hang onto windwaves and surf longer than I can! Second, a friend nearby has just acquired a Nordkapp Jubilee with skeg, and I was fishing for tips for him. It's a really nicely finished boat, and moderate weight, 25 kg. I wish you huge profits from SeaKayaker articles so you can acquire one. I don't really give a hoot about rudders, skegs or none, whatever works is fine, but having a rudderless boat seems to attract attention from people here assuming I am some sort of anti-rudder zealot, which I am not. Most sea kayaks around here would be ruddered, especially with those who use sails, which are pretty common. "Rudders snap cables, Skegs won't trim, Rudderless broaches, You might as well SWIM!" Cheers, PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
FUNNY story Doug!!!! and ohhhhh soooo true! steve'skeg'scherrer Original Message: ----------------- From: Doug Lloyd dalloyd_at_telus.net ---snip---- http://mail2web.com/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter T. posted (snip): > Hello Doug, Thanks for this reply. I posed the question for two reasons....Rudders snap cables, Skegs won't trim, Rudderless broaches, You might as well SWIM!"< I do have a sail, and really appreciate the rudder when I'm sailing my Nordkapp, which isn't very often. With the exception of a few good paddlers (code words for Mainer Kayak kayakers :-) ), I can usually out-perform non-ruddered boats in 30 to 40 knot down-wind surfing rides. I retain full rear-compartment storage with my rudder as opposed to a skeg box. I've beefed up my cables since the incidents in my story, etc., so my only real issue is the problems inherent with seal launching a ruddered kayak, so tend to go stern first to avoid breakage. In really heavy following seas, the waves can really push on the rudder, transferring the energy to the foot pedals, requiring constant attention. This is a point often omitted in a zealot's theological discourse. Some type of deck-mounted lock would be a nice feature for holding a set course, though I do find the reality of a dynamic ocean surface forces a paddler into certain zig-zag patterns for best progress forward, even despite having a rudder, though the options always seem better than a skegged boat that often finds its own best line through the wind and waves (from what I've observed). The rudder does have drag, and needs to be deep enough in the water in following seas. You can't compare ruddered boats fairly with other non-ruddered performance kayaks of a similar nature if you evaluate that ruddered boat with sliding foot pedals. This has been mentioned before but, I add the emphasis. The foot controls must be some type of butterfly style to fully appreciate a ruddered boat, then make your comparisons. If I get a new boat, I'd probably opt for a skegged one, and something with a chined hull. I've talked with Nigel Foster on the side, and he's been with good paddlers in round-bilge hulled kayaks that have wound up all over God's little half acre in fierce tidal races and overfalls, while Nigel was able to effectively maintain full directional control with minimum effort and a bit of body language skill (none ruddered semi-round bilge-hulled kayaks, that is, compared to his multi-chine). However, my shoulder tendonitis still makes a ruddered kayak a more viable option when Mother Nature throws a tantrum, so I don't know. There is no perfect compromise, though the neo-recreational/touring promotion of recent times with an emphasis on boat control skills is certainly called for to balance out mainstream rudder use. It often comes down to the type of paddler you are (want to be) and say, regional preferences. Certainly, a vast sea of ruddered kayak paddlers swarm the sea's surface in kayaks like the Current Designs GT series, sans rudder, and are perfectly happy and content. Likewise, there are hoards of hairy performance paddlers with skegged kayaks, learning awesome boat handling and proactive paddling techniques. And there are some who add skeggy bits of appendage to their sterns to aid directional stability. The bottom line is maintaining both static and dynamic boat stability as well as directional stability while underway, are equal considerations not always given due respect, the latter in particular with new buyers. And for those rudder dependent individuals who loose rudder control due to breakage on long crossings, well, thank the good Lord for the Coast Guard! Beats swimming back to shore! Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elias Ross <genman_at_noderunner.net> asked: >>>>>>I'm building a double kayak that will probably need a rudder sometime soon. I was thinking of installing this rudder system. Does it seem like the foot pedals or rails were a little bit flexible or weak?<<<<<< Unless Seal line has a much bigger rudder blade that is suitable for a double (that I don't know about yet) you will probably find their rudder blade far too small for a double kayak. I'd look for a rudder designed for a double that has a much bigger (longer and wider) blade. Seal Line has had some problems with the foot pedals holding up but I know they have fixed at least some of them. Recently someone was telling me that they had broken several of the height adjustable plates so I'd be wary about getting that option unless you know you are getting the latest version and that it has addressed those breakage problems. BTW, I applaud Seal Line for making a foot pedal system that at least addresses the "no solid pedals to get leg power into your stroke" problem that plagues most rudder systems. Adding to my previous Skeg Jammer post: When I used to race sea kayaks regularly I always hoped that the water would be as rough as it could be (but without the race getting cancelled). Rougher water was always a big advantage for me, I especially liked steep following seas or strong side winds. I never used a rudder or an adjustable skeg. Go figure. I recall one race around Shaw Island where a strong competitor in a fast ruddered kayak was trying to draft me but was having a hard time because he was zigzagging back and forth so bad back there he couldn't stay in the sweet spot. Before he dropped back he commented that he just couldn't believe how straight my kayak was going through that rough chop without a rudder when he couldn't keep his kayak going straight with the help of his rudder (and I was even knocking down some of the chop for him and would have much preferred being the drafter rather than the draftee--oops, am I getting a little too political for Paddlewise here?). He didn't realize that there cannot be much subtlety when using a rudder for control. I call them delayed feedback over-control devices. A skeg not only helps balance the wind water couple to prevent weather cocking it also makes the kayak harder to turn. This can be a disadvantage for a skilled paddler when in tricky conditions that they could adapt to quickly given a relatively neutral but more maneuverable kayak. One of the more frustrating kayaks for me in following seas was the Nordkapp HM (the long straight fin keeled one). It was so stiff tracking (read hard to turn) that when it started to broach even just a little there was no correcting it without hard (braking) reverse strokes that would cause one to loose the free ride. Better than suddenly skidding sideways down the wave as many kayaks do, I guess, on the anxiety chart anyway, but even though the broach was relatively slow it was frustrating none the less. More skeg isn't always the best solution in this condition but if the kayak's hull is such that with the skeg up you risk a sudden skidding broach then skeg down and slow broach is probably the better choice. The old Baidarka Explorer with its long V keel was a very good kayak in following seas. When that hull was resurrected again as the Sirius and a skeg was added I had the chance to try it again in a steep following sea. I guess the skeg was just for side winds. In a following sea with the skeg down I was reminded of the Nordkapp HM. I thought the best skeg position for a following sea in the Sirius was fully retracted. While still a pretty stiff tracking kayak it was somewhat more maneuverable and therefore easier to control (given a little skill on the paddler's part anyway). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 16 Jun 2004 at 23:29, Matt Broze wrote: > BTW, I applaud Seal Line for making a foot pedal > system that at least addresses the "no solid pedals to get leg power > into your stroke" problem that plagues most rudder systems. Seaward's pedals are now in their second (or later) revision and are mostly aluminum. I had their first (or at least an earlier) version in my old Solstice and I can say they are quite solid. The Seal Line are nicer looking and have more features (like adjustment of position with your hands instead of with your toes), but don't give me the warm fuzzies in terms of strength. Seaward's don't come with a rudder, so you can use them with any brand. > He didn't realize that there cannot be much subtlety when using a > rudder for control. I call them delayed feedback over-control > devices. As well, in chop, they have a nasty habit of lifting out of the water as a wave passes by. This results in a serious wiggle in the track as well. The shape of the stern can make this worse, too. Perception's Eclipse, Shadow and similar hulls hang the rudder off a useless stub of hull that leaves it airborne in any steep chop. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> asked: >>>>>>What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water?<<<<<<< Well, if shore was too far off and if there was no chance of having your kayak blow away faster than you could swim, you could bail out with your skeg unjammer firmly held in your teeth, fix it and then do a self rescue. Of course if conditions were that mild you could probably handle the kayak without the skeg (or with too much skeg if that, less likely, failure mode occurred). Same goes for a rudder that has failed in a position (such as jammed over to one extreme) that makes paddling any distance virtually impossible. Again though if conditions are that benign and the rudder failure is such that the rudder can still be lifted or is still free to turn with the boat (even though you can no longer control it) you can get by without it with at least with most reasonable sea kayaks. I don't think anyone has mentioned that the best way to not get into this position is to always test that the skeg is functioning correctly as soon as you leave the beach. Chris Duff modified the Romany Explorer he used to solo circumnavigate the South island of NZ by (if I recall this correctly) filling in (or cutting out) his kayak's skeg box so he had no skeg to fail on him. Paul Caffyn (the one previous circumnavigator of the same island--part solo and part with a partner) is reported to have told Chris that if he didn't use a Nordkapp with a deep draft rudder he had no chance of succeeding. If that is true, Paul was proved wrong when Chris completed his trip. This also calls into question Steve "Alder Creek" (and "kayaks with skegs" designer) Scherer's conclusions when he jumped on board Duane Strosaker's comments below: >>>>>>It's too bad there aren't more kayak designs that don't need a skeg or rudder. Interestingly, there was such a boat on the trip, and due it being loaded bow heavy, resulting in excessive weather cocking and broaching during a crossing, a tow line had to be used for a while to keep it going straight.<<<<<<< Steve ground his axe thusly: >>>>>>>this is the problem with boats that 'don't need a skeg or rudder'. The simple matter of balancing a boat to 'conditions' and course is quite involved, taking wind speed and direction, intended course, boat trim, swell direction, etc. into consideration. just being off a little with this balancing equation can be a nightmare. skegs and rudders make this 'balancing act' as EZ as deploying the device. Many times I have seen experienced paddlers in boats that 'don't need no stinkin' rudder or skeg' have all kinds of issues when the wind kicked up. The boats WILL find it's weather balance point, and sometimes it ain't where YOU want to go.<<<<<< I don't know which kayaks he or Duane were talking about so I can't judge if these were kayaks that I believe a skilled paddler shouldn't need a rudder or skeg to control in side winds or following seas. However, as the designer of some kayaks that I believe are among the kayaks that are the least in need of a rudder or skeg to keep a course in difficult conditions, I would like to respond. Yes, it does take a little skill and practice to get the best from such a kayak (much like it takes a little practice to learn to use a skeg correctly and somewhat less practice to learn to use a rudder). Someone trained to the rudder usually takes awhile just to overcome the urge to push harder on the pedal on the side he or she wants to turn toward and often has little or no clue how a kayak can be controlled without the rudder. They can find it even harder to learn to use a rudderless kayak than a rank novice might because their previous learning must also be overcome. Plunk this rudder dependant kayaker down in difficult conditions with a rudder that has failed (even benignly) and they are likely to be (at best) struggling in that situation. The less rudderless friendly the basic hull of their kayak is the worse their struggle is going to be. Steve would have you believe it is difficult and extremely complicated to get the balance just right in even a "good" (if he will even admit to such a beast) rudderless or skegless kayak. He would have you believe that even if you are off by just a little it will be a real nightmare. This "red herring" is just not remotely true. It is very simple to get the balance right when loading a kayak with gear (hopefully the designer took care of this for you when the kayak is paddled with little or no gear load). The problem is that few understand what needs to be done to maintain trim. Simply put all of the dense heavy items in the rear and all the light bulky items in the front. The major (by far--I was even tempted to say "only") reason a skilled rudderless paddler might have a problem is that they put too much weight in the front of the kayak. This is an easy thing to do if you are not aware of the problem it causes. Here is what happens. The trim of a kayak works much like a teeter totter. The fulcrum is at the center of buoyancy (for a well designed kayak this should be at about ones belly button when the kayak is level). (Note: Your belly button is about your center of gravity when sitting in a kayaking position--you could try this out at the playground). Any weight you put in the front of the kayak has to be put further out on the teeter totter because your legs stick out further in that direction than your butt does in the other direction. Any kid soon learns how that effects the balance of the teeter totter. Ones goal should be to get twice as much weight into the stern as into the bow. If that is difficult (or you find your kayak still weather helming) put some of the water way back near the stern to help balance out the bow's load. This advice isn't just for kayaks that have little or no need of a rudder or skeg though, because ruddered and skegged kayaks will also handle better and be faster if you do this. A weathercocking kayak will need more rudder angle or skeg depth to compensate if you load the bow too heavy and then travel across a side wind. The greater rudder angle (especially) and the deeper skeg (somewhat) will increase the kayaks drag as the cost of keeping to an unnatural course that the hull doesn't want to stay on. Speaking of adding drag, some kayaks skeg boxes are major drag producers at all times and tank tests have shown a flat rudder to add 10% to the drag of a kayak at 3 knots (with the rudder straight back). Imagine how much more drag there is when the rudder must be held at an angle to ones direction just to keep the kayak going that way. When my kids were small, and rode in my lap, I could sure tell that somebody had put on the brakes whenever they would dangle their fingertips in the water. Lee Moyer of PWS recently told a kayak club that he has seen lots more problems with skegs than with rudders in his shop. He is probably a lot more knowledgeable about customers rudder and skeg problems than I because we rarely sell kayaks with rudders. One benefit for me is that I don't get many complaints about them failing. I also have a lot of folks thank me for letting them learn to be "paddlers" (as opposed to "rudderers"). However, I've seen all sorts of rudder failures in the wild. Either it is fairly common or I'm way out on one side of the bell curve with my experience with this. If I had to chose one or the other (and they were both totally reliable and had none of the common but solvable problems--such as loose foot pedals that don't let you get your leg power into the stroke or skeg boxes that develop leaks) I would most likely choose the skeg because the rudder is invariably mounted at the stern and can spend significant time out of the water just when it is most needed in steep following seas. I'd still have to put up with that hard to pack around skeg housing in the stern compartment though. If I did have a rudder I'd cross the rudder cables so at least when I wanted to turn the proper knee would lift up to help me turn the kayak faster by leaning it. This also brings the proper knee into play when one angles the rudder to straighten out a broaching kayak but nothing happens until the rudder renters the water. If you have been trying to stop the broach with a normal rudder your down wave knee isn't on the knee brace when the rudder catches the wave crest again and tries to trip you down wave with its leverage. Crossing the cables also naturally fixes this problem. I almost forgot. With a seat/footbrace unit that can be easily moved fore and aft in the kayak one can adjust the kayak's trim about as easily as one can adjust a skeg (and there is no skeg control bump sticking out of the deck to bark my knuckles on either). For some reason many skeg manufacturers also seem to want to place the skeg adjusting recess (internal lump as opposed to the adjusting knob's external bump) right where one of my knees would like to go. Irritating, yes, but like sliding foot pedals, just poor design, rather than a necessary evil of the system. For those who, like Chris Duff, would like to reduce their dependence on unreliable crutches, there are some tips on handling a kayak in difficult conditions, using your bare hands, in the "paddling" manual (in the "Manuals" section of the website below my name). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 17/6/04 16:52, Matt Broze at mkayaks_at_oz.net wrote: > Paul Caffyn (the > one previous circumnavigator of the same island--part solo and part with a > partner) > At least one other paddler has circumnavigated the South Island before Chris. An American (whose name escapes me) working here in the communications field for a year, did it with very little fanfare. He had incredibly good weather and luck (washed up only once if I recall correctly) and paddled a metre from the rocks of the Fiordland coast that caused Paul and Chris so much trouble. He also was told he needed a different boat to the one he used, and told me afterwards that he may have been faster in a Nordkapp. I laughed. He left NZ soon after, probably still not realising his achievement. Also, Nelson kayaker Bevan Walker has paddled the whole island, chunks at a time. -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:52 PM 6/16/2004 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >"Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> asked: > > >>>>>>What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water?<<<<<<< > >Well, if shore was too far off and if there was no chance of having your >kayak blow away faster than you could swim, you could bail out with your >skeg unjammer firmly held in your teeth, fix it and then do a self rescue. >Of course if conditions were that mild you could probably handle the kayak >without the skeg (or with too much skeg if that, less likely, failure mode >occurred). Same goes for a rudder that has failed in a position (such as >jammed over to one extreme) that makes paddling any distance virtually >impossible. Again though if conditions are that benign and the rudder >failure is such that the rudder can still be lifted or is still free to turn >with the boat (even though you can no longer control it) you can get by >without it with at least with most reasonable sea kayaks. I don't think >anyone has mentioned that the best way to not get into this position is to >always test that the skeg is functioning correctly as soon as you leave the >beach. Good point. If someone chooses to paddle solo in conditions which may require the use of a skeg or rudder they had better make sure that they employ a more important piece of equipment; their head, and have the common sense to make sure that their boat is well maintained and completely functional. >Chris Duff modified the Romany Explorer he used to solo circumnavigate the >South island of NZ by (if I recall this correctly) filling in (or cutting >out) his kayak's skeg box so he had no skeg to fail on him. Paul Caffyn (the >one previous circumnavigator of the same island--part solo and part with a >partner) is reported to have told Chris that if he didn't use a Nordkapp >with a deep draft rudder he had no chance of succeeding. If that is true, >Paul was proved wrong when Chris completed his trip. But Paul was almost right. While it most likely had nothing to do with not having a skeg or deep draft rudder Chris broke his Romany during a beach "landing" to the point where it had to be flown into a town where it could be repaired. Chis *did* paddle a Nordkapp for his circumnavigation of Ireland but he also paddle a Romany (as did Leon and Shawna) for the Iceland Expedition. From pictures of the boats on the Iceland Expedition web site it appears that none of the boats were equipped with a skeg. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira [mailto:jaf30_at_cornell.edu] wrote: >>>>>But Paul was almost right. While it most likely had nothing to do with not having a skeg or deep draft rudder Chris broke his Romany during a beach "landing" to the point where it had to be flown into a town where it could be repaired.<<<<<< That was a landing in big surf. The lack of a rudder had nothing to do with that. I'll bet Paul had to repair his (a very substantial rudder) many times in his circumnavigation of Australia. Paul used a slip over the stern fiberglass skeg in his circumnavigation of the South Island of NZ. Chris certainly could have used a kayak with stronger seams and a tougher hull then but had he had a rudder he likely would have to had gotten that repaired or replaced as well. As in some cases I've seen, when banged into rocks or rear endered in surf the rudder may actually break (lever) off the end of the stern where the pin or mounting bolts go into the kayak. Matt Broze *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt posted (snip Peter's remarks and much of Matt's): >I don't think anyone has mentioned that the best way to not get into this position is to always test that the skeg is functioning correctly as soon as you leave the beach.< Yeah, someone did; makes sense, then you can land and fix it right away and relaunch. The same person mentioned launching backwards too. On my west coast jaunts with some skegged boat paddlers who jammed frequently, some of the beaches were very steep with surging waves, making the two above mentioned options more difficult. >Paul Caffyn (the one previous circumnavigator of the same island--part solo and part with a partner) is reported to have told Chris that if he didn't use a Nordkapp with a deep draft rudder he had no chance of succeeding. If that is true, Paul was proved wrong when Chris completed his trip.< Well, Chris did require a rescue (nothing to do with the kayak design/rudder question), but you are correct, he did eventually succeed during a very bad year for sea conditions. Chris had mentioned Paul's comments about doing it in a Nordkapp to me prior to the NZ trip; I remember thinking what a silly comment by Paul, but then most paddlers I know are fairy opinionated. >If I did have a rudder I'd cross the rudder cables so at least when I wanted to turn the proper knee would lift up to help me turn the kayak faster by leaning it. This also brings the proper knee into play when one angles the rudder to straighten out a broaching kayak but nothing happens until the rudder renters the water. If you have been trying to stop the broach with a normal rudder your down wave knee isn't on the knee brace when the rudder catches the wave crest again and tries to trip you down wave with its leverage. Crossing the cables also naturally fixes this problem.< Yes, you did mentioned this arrangement to me a number of years ago, which I incorporated into one of my earlier Nordkapp rebuilds. It was a very good idea I thought, with significant advantages for a "rudderer" type. The problem was, I couldn't get used to it. I wish I had rigged the cables with the switch when I first started using a rudder on my kayak. It would have become habit (knowing instinctively which pedal to push on). I eventually eliminated most of the problem by heavily padding my inner cockpit, complete with a knee tube that allows bracing without the need to raise one knees. The arrangement would be a bit, um, tight, for most preferences. :-) >I almost forgot. With a seat/footbrace unit that can be easily moved fore and aft in the kayak one can adjust the kayak's trim about as easily as one can adjust a skeg (and there is no skeg control bump sticking out of the deck to bark my knuckles on either).< You mean you almost forgot to say you sell one of the few sea kayak lines that incorporate a sliding seat arrangement, namely Mariner Kayaks. :-) Just ribbing you Matt. I've actually met folks who like the system and use it to good effect (well, that was pre-skeg retail explosion days). For the most part, I place all my heavy objects just abaft of the cockpit, having custom installed a VCP oval hatch inches from the rear rim. It was a no-brainer when I was redesigning the deck layout of my Nordkapp. I rarely ever place anything heavy in the distal end of the second rear compartment though (to off-set the front cargo weight), as this allows too much momentum (up and down) in heavy, steep seas. At best, I may occasionally load my water in the front hatch for heavy down-wind runs. I've never really understood the different loading requirements far a Swede form versus a fish-form (if there are any), but do know most paddlers experiment to find what works best. Those dumb enough not to know that there are different ways of distributing weight, either have not taken a course, have not bought or read a decent kayak how-to book, or have not taken the time to ask questions from friends and mentors. Those type of paddlers have so many other issues, perhaps this is the least of their problems. For what it is worth, your manuals section is still a superb document I refer numerous new-paddling individuals toward. Thank you for making it so readily available, even pre-web days in the past. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just this moment back from a night blast in a good wind, 34 kts max, mean 27, in my Nordkapp sans-rudder, to find the arguments of skeg versus rudder versus smooth hull are still raging. Is it fun to use good technique to control a long boat in lumpy sea? Yes, of course. Would a skeg have allowed me to keep the boat level in a quartering wind when I couldn't see the sea? Of course. If I had my rudder fitted (fell off years ago and I never put it back) would I have got better surfing runs on the way home, using all paddle strokes for forward speed as against steering? Yes again, of course. Strokes for folks. But, if using a rudder, do cross the cables, it all makes much more sense. Keep at it Doug. Cheers JKA -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Night paddling in 30 knot winds? Isn't that kind of dangerous? :-) Personally, I'd still love to have a kayak that performed well without a rudder, but perhaps needed a skeg for tighter control as an option (but one that was still good enough you could get by without the skeg). That raises an interesting point. I think most good performance sea kayaks do well without a skeg, then the manufacturer adds one for easier paddling in contrary conditions (pure speculation on my part). I doubt there are a lot of poor-performance kayaks out there that would fail abysmally if the skeg failed to deploy when suddenly needed. I do think there are far more kayaks that do poorly in quartering seas/wind, that have rudders added to compensate. And of course, there are many of these paddlers who use a rudder to compensate for lack of skill. I'm still interested in the Foster "Legend" with skeg and have short-listed a few other kayaks, but finances took a major dive with poor health, so it will be a while before I'm in the market. Not sure why your rudder fell off. Kinda sounds like a wee bit of a design issue. Mine's fairy bombproof that way, though I did get out finally for my first paddle this past Sunday, the first day of summer and the longest day of the year. I paddled back from an island without the other 19 paddlers who escorted me over earlier in the morning, as I needed to get back for Father's Day commitments. The accompanied crossing over to the island gave me the medical confidence to solo back. I used my rudder part way when a wind/tide came up. Funnily enough, it calmed down real fast, but I couldn't raise the rudder onto the deck when it wasn't needed any longer. I think the pulley I use to aid mechanical leverage facilitation of the rudder-up function caught on the end of my spare paddle shaft, as I placed the longer half on the wrong side than usual. I still hate mechanical things that can and do go wrong on a kayak. At least my heart was mechanically sound during the 4.5 knot sprint back (4nm), though I had a bad bought with a-fib in the middle of the night, so was a bit depressed. May be a while before I hit the storms. Glad someone is out having fun. I did try Matt's idea of crossing the cables, for many months when I first tried this, but just couldn't retrain myself, nor the muscle memory. I did talk to a new paddler who was out in her Zodiac last Friday when that squall hit (Hot Squall post). She had a 90 horsepower outboard on a 17-foot, semi-rigid inflatable, but could not outrun the squall - a massive black cloud moving fast out of the east. She said waves grew to 6-feet in no time at all. Very scary, as she was with her teenagers. Another paddler reported that he was out observing the squall with binoculars Friday, when he saw two paddlers in single sea kayaks crossing back to Victoria. He could see the squall coming and flagged down a police officer (if I remember the details correctly). The coast guard was called. The couple made it to a reef just in time, but got fairly bloodied trying to hang on to their kayaks. The rescue went successfully, and the kayaks were retrieved too. As usual, squalls are totally unfair: those who don't want to be in them get caught. And those of us who do, are stuck in our desks. In forty knot plus squalls, I'd probably be grateful for my deep-draft rudder - as long as it was working. :-) Doug Lloyd Victoria BC John said (snip): > Just this moment back from a night blast in a good wind, 34 kts max, mean > 27, in my Nordkapp sans-rudder, to find the arguments of skeg versus rudder > versus smooth hull are still raging. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Personally, I'd still love to have a kayak that performed well without a rudder, but perhaps needed a skeg for tighter control as an option (but one that was still good enough you could get by without the skeg). That raises an interesting point. I think most good performance sea kayaks do well without a skeg, then the manufacturer adds one for easier paddling in contrary conditions (pure speculation on my part). As I understand it, a proper skeg boat is designed around the skeg. That is, the boat is actually designed to weathercock. That being the case, I prefer a boat that is designed to handle well without either a skeg or a rudder, and then I can add a rudder to it only if I felt I really wanted one to make life a little easier. I don't HAVE to use the rudder on the boat, but the skeg boat is designed to require the use of a skeg. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott posted: >As I understand it, a proper skeg boat is designed around the skeg. That is, the boat is actually designed to weathercock. That being the case, I prefer a boat that is designed to handle well without either a skeg or a rudder, and then I can add a rudder to it only if I felt I really wanted one to make life a little easier. I don't HAVE to use the rudder on the boat, but the skeg boat is designed to require the use of a skeg.< That may be the case (boat designed around the skeg). Like I said, I don't really know. If it is true, then that doesn't sound too good. Makes you want to design/build your own kayak. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>>>You mean you almost forgot to say you sell one of the few sea kayak lines that incorporate a sliding seat arrangement, namely Mariner Kayaks. :-) Just ribbing you Matt.<<<<< Actually, as far as I know a sliding seat/footbrace unit has always been unique to Mariner kayaks. Can anyone correct me here? Peter Treby asked about failures with the sliding seat. With a few of the very first ones I did, I didn't use heavy enough slide rails for the seat track and the seat could be torqued out of the soft track (mostly during rolling practice in a heated pool when the vinyl was softened some more by the heated water). I feared the weak spot might be the nylon bolt that slid in the footbrace tracks and for a few years supplied spares with every kayak sold. My fears were unjustified. In 23 years only about a half dozen nylon bolts have ever been broken (that I'm aware of). I'm probably aware of almost all of them since the nylon bolt is not an item commonly available at the hardware store so I get the call about where to get them. We shipped them new units free of charge immediately. A few of the earlier foot pedals we got from other kayak companies eventually work hardened when used by racers who trained a lot and broke where the aluminum was stressed at 90 degree bends. I designed the present ones (from 3/16" extruded angle) because while only a few had failed I didn't want any failures. I don't recall any of the new foot pedals ever breaking. I also worried about the glue joint holding the slid tracks to the hull and still go to what some would say are extreme measures to make sure they stay down when I install them (and I believe have personally installed every sliding seat we have ever made). The only one that failed was one where I was trying out a new glue, so used it on our new demo. We soon learned not to start using this glue (Spray 90) due to others experience because it was not waterproof with long immersion. I forgot about it and sold this demo kayak several years later and it failed a few years after that. No other track I put down (all of them in the kayaks we sold) has ever, to my knowledge, come up over the last 23 years. We had to stop our builder from selling any sliding seat Mariners (when NWK sold some wholesale in the 1980's) because some their employees gluing the tracks down so poorly they were coming up in the showroom. Other companies in the early 1980's tried holding the seat down in the kayak the same way (but never fastened the seat to the footpedals). So many were coming up I had to call them up to tell them how to do it right because their failures with a similar looking system were reflecting on what we did even though none of ours had ever failed. I was relieved when other manufacturers dropped this way of holding their seats down. I understand Eddyline is faced with a similar situation regarding thermoformed kayak competitors right now. Peter said about Paul Caffyn: >>>>>He reckons a rudder gave him increased daily mileage.<<<<< It might well have, some kayaks have more need for rudders than others. However, perception and reality can often be two different things. Until we get some objective measured results with many different kayaks using both a rudder and not using a rudder (by paddlers equally competent both ways) we don't have good data, only opinions. One of the problems is that having to make course corrections in difficult conditions is a lot more noticeable than extra drag due to the rudder and dragging it at an angle to make corrections. Further, all this is very kayak dependant and skill dependant as well. I know rougher conditions always gave me a big advantage in races. How much of that was do to skill on my part in rough conditions and how much was due to not having a rudder (or a kayak that handled them well without) I can't really tell. A lot of folks will tell you they know something by their own experience but they don't really. I know John Winters has commented on this several times in the past. Peter worried about a stern heavy trim causing lee helming. This is not likely to be a worry with a heavy camping type gear load (even if its only an overnight trip) because there is then enough mass in both ends to not let them get blown around much. Most kayaks weather helm so much already that it is hard to correct with just a change of trim to the stern. With kayaks that don't weather helm you probably ought to store the first 10 to 20 pounds in front of ones feet (if there is a possibility of extreme winds blowing off shore anyway) but after that the next 40 pounds should go into the rear so you won't induce weather helm unnecessarily with a bow heavy trim. Lifting the kayak to test the balance only works with light loads and/or strong backs. I'm usually very lightly loaded (day trip) or quite heavily loaded (overnight and longer trips) there doesn't seem to be much middle ground. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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In a message dated 6/14/2004 3:18:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kork4_at_cluemail.com writes: > A 'decent' rudder setup has fixed pegs where either a portion of the > pedal moves > and controls the rudder, the whole foot pedal pivots on fixed peg, or > there is a separate rudder control > between the paddlers feet (basically a stick that is moved side to side > to control the rudder). > Sorry about the late post to this topic. I was paddling in Alaska for two weeks. The problem I have to the rudders standing on end like the meat clever found on Easy Rider kayaks or the Smart Trac system is twofold: 1. Approaching the stern of that kayak with raised rudder in bumpy water can be very hazardous to you or your boat. 2. It seems as though the raised rudder will point the bow to the wind more quickly than one with the rudder lying horizontal to the deck. This seems to make it a rudder dependant boat in anything over force 2. Three cheers for sweeps and stern rudders!!! Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/14/2004 4:56:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: > What do solo paddlers do to free a skeg while on the water? > 3 things: Very, very carefully launch while the boat floats, sometimes not possible. They tie a string to the loop on the end of the skeg blade. Pray. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/16/2004 11:29:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > One of the > more frustrating kayaks for me in following seas was the Nordkapp HM (the > long straight fin keeled one). It was so stiff tracking (read hard to turn) > that when it started to broach even just a little there was no correcting it > without hard (braking) reverse strokes that would cause one to loose the > free ride. I own this boat. I do agree with you that it broaches very quickly. I have solved this problem, (mostly), by constantly fine tuning my place in the wave. Any sloppiness on my part, (common), will cause a few extra strokes. I live with it. Like your fine fleet, I have no mechanical parts to nurture, though, either. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt posted (huge snip): >A lot of folks will tell you they know something by their own experience but they don't really. I know John Winters has commented on this several times in the past.< Well, that's certainly is an objective observation. I agree. Though, there are lots of folks on this list who do know an awful lot by their experience. Of course, the reader may suffer cognitive dissonance and abate that dissonance with their own consistent cognitions based on their experience, or those of others who they agree with. Or hey, more simply put by Duane some time ago, take everything on Paddlewise with a grain of salt. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/24/2004 10:34:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dalloyd_at_telus.net writes: > take everything on Paddlewise with a grain of salt. > You mean *I heard it on the internet* applies here, too? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob said: >You mean *I heard it on the internet* applies here, too?< Okay, so maybe not that bad. I take what folks post at face value, and appreciate the various views and opinions expressed, and even learn a lot (like from Matt). What bothers me is getting caught up in absolutes, like, "This particular kayak runs of course and needs constant corrective strokes; a very dangerous kayak." Not that anyone said that particular statement outright. In fact, there may be a tendency for a particular design to do just that, but so do all the other kayaks in that design category, just each one may weathercock at varying degrees (pun partially intended). Just like with rudders, all boats would benefit from them in certain situations, even say a Mariner, but a very many well designed kayaks perform very adequately without them installed, with other options accounting for an ability to maintain course. Rudders aren't bad, just another option, with advantages and drawbacks. I've heard of other boats that are fast, comfy, look good, but didn't give a particularly sea kindly ride in lumpy seas (based on feedback from other paddlers). Other kayaks, I've seen directly, paddled by skilled individuals, complete with skegs incorporated and deep "V" hulls, yet perform poorly in a quartering sea (poorly being a subjective comment by the owners). Nevertheless, people will take their stand, often on one side of an issue, or the other, and that gives listserver groups like Paddlewise some needed liveliness. And somewhere in the middle of an argument, lies reality and truth, almost always, few exceptions. In the end, getting out on the water and having fun is what really counts. And getting out come voting day can really count too, though I'm not so sure the polemics in our respective countries are much fun anymore. Hey, let us know how the Alaska trip went. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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