cnn.com has a little blurb on kayaks today: http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/10/11/popsci.kayak/index.html Paul Montgomery paul_at_paddleandoar.com http://paddleandoar.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/6/2006 5:36:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, paul_at_paddleandoar.com writes: http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/10/11/popsci.kayak/index.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But they got this part right: "That was then. Now I paddle sea kayaks. For a long time I thought kayaks were the purview of men and women who were probably also bird-watchers or nudists -- unsmiling folk who take the outdoors seriously. " Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:42:10 EST, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com said: > In a message dated 12/6/2006 5:36:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, > paul_at_paddleandoar.com writes: > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/10/11/popsci.kayak/index.html > > But they got this part right: > > "That was then. Now I paddle sea kayaks. For a long time I thought kayaks > were the purview of men and women who were probably also bird-watchers or > nudists -- unsmiling folk who take the outdoors seriously. " As an avid splinter paddler (see CNN article). He missed my current preference, a self bailing splinter (aka surfski). There's an entertaining writeup on a surfski race by a sea kayaker (he comments on the difference between the usual laid back sea kayakers and surfski crowd) on: http://www.surfski.info/content/view/323/89 -- Kirk Olsen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk Olsen wrote: >There's an >entertaining writeup on a surfski race by a sea kayaker (he comments on >the difference between the usual laid back sea kayakers and surfski >crowd) on: > >http://www.surfski.info/content/view/323/89 > Thanks for the link. Very funny stuff. From the report: "Some twit (in a surfski) can't steer his boat at the start and almost takes me out. I hit him with my paddle and he disappears too. Posing time was over and the blondes were looking for new friends." ..... "The first boat to go over is a Surfski driven by a blonde. I try to surf into her but I miss. At least it would have cheered me up." ...... "Will I take part again. Yes. Many thanks to the Surfski Fraternity for having us. The guys have got something. Regretfully I think it could be infectious." That's what I would be afraid of. Another costly habit. Kirk, is your designer car color-coded with the "ski"? Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Myers wrote: Thanks for the link. Very funny stuff. > > > > My favorite tid bit, "There was no question of actually racing anyone. It was just survive and finish the race." It reminds me of a quote from the New South Wales Kayak Club site. "It was a good paddle. Nobody died." There are days I love to just float. And then there are days I wish the swell was bigger. And perhaps faster. A lot faster. With blondes... Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12/6/06, Rcgibbert_at_aol.com <Rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > > But they got this part right: > > "That was then. Now I paddle sea kayaks. For a long time I thought kayaks > were the purview of men and women who were probably also bird-watchers or > nudists -- unsmiling folk who take the outdoors seriously. " > > One thing he didn't quite get right though. He mentioned the efficiency of kayaks and bicycles but didn't mention (or didn't know) that a full 747 is the most efficient machine in terms of BTUs burned per passenger moved. At least according to a Scientific American issue of some years back. The bicycle comes second but not by very much. I don't recall if the rider had to be especially skilled or not but the gap between the bicycle and whatever came in third was pretty big. Of course, in terms of simplicity-per-passenger-mile I think he'd be right; a kayak has to be right up there. I'm pretty sure that kayaks weren't in that article but it would sure be interesting to find out just where they would fit in this equation. Sounds like something that Matt Broze would either know or be able to discover. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am surprised it is not a converted oil tanker filled to the brim with tens of thousands of people moving leisurely through the water. I remember an argument that a ship filled with CD's had the greatest bandwidth of any "system". On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Craig Jungers wrote: > that a full 747 is > the most efficient machine in terms of BTUs burned per passenger > moved. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12/9/06, Robert Livingston <bearboat2_at_comcast.net> wrote: > > I am surprised it is not a converted oil tanker filled to the brim > with tens of thousands of people moving leisurely through the water. Scientific American tends to make better comparisons than the purely hypothetical, I think. Besides, I spent some considerable time on tankers (Sun, Exxon and Chevron) and I don't think that they'd be very efficient even if the tanks were filled to the brim with people stacked up like cordwood. > I remember an argument that a ship filled with CD's had the greatest > bandwidth of any "system". I've heard this argument and think that the proponents tend to ignore "speed". That ship might move a lot of data but it wouldn't be very quick. On an electrical network all packets move at the speed of light so, technically, even your old 28kbps dial-up modem is as fast as the fastest optical fiber system. It has the speed; it just doesn't have the bandwidth. Alaska's Senator Stevens was widely laughed at when he said that the Internet is a series of "tubes" but network engineers often use the term "pipe" when they talk about bandwidth. Stevens, in what must surely be one of the few times he was right (or almost right), probably heard someone talking about getting a bigger "pipe" for a system and mis-remembered what the term was. But networks, like water, work better if they have a wider "pipe". Our old trusty 747 can be used to illustrate this concept. If we compare two jet planes; say the 747 and the 737, we know that they travel at pretty similar speeds (about 500 mph). But the 747 carries more passengers so it has a greater bandwidth. But a 737 is cheaper and if you only need to move than bandwidth then it's the better bargain. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > Scientific American tends to make better comparisons than the purely > hypothetical, I think. Besides, I spent some considerable time on tankers > (Sun, Exxon and Chevron) and I don't think that they'd be very efficient > even if the tanks were filled to the brim with people stacked up like > cordwood. An old article in SA back in the '70s showed the relative efficiency of various means of transportation. Rather than show the efficiency in terms of numbers of people, they showed the efficiency in terms of energy used per kilogram moved per kilometer traveled. In those terms, the 747 was a relatively poor means of travel (lifting 750,000lb up 31,000 feet at the start doesn't contribute to efficiency). The bicycle was number two on land (first was a unit train like those mile-long ore carriers). Number one overall was a supertanker filled to the brim with oil. The problem is of course that people are relatively light and demand a lot of room - that makes for bulk rather than efficiency. This in spite of the fact that so many people appear to be so dense. :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day, Did these articles include the cyclist's basal metabolic rate or were they using only the energy consumed in exercise which would have been the more valid comparison. In comparing air transport its very important to state whether its a long or short haul flight. The embodied eenrgy of the machine and the fuel also needs to be included for each mode of transport. I'd be very suprised given these parameters if kayaking with a high angle racing stroke on a steady diet of baked beans didn't turn out to be the most efficient form of transport there is and should be mandated by law for all citizens travelling anywhere. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au wrote: > Did these articles include the cyclist's basal metabolic rate or were they > using only the energy consumed in exercise which would have been the more > valid comparison. I can only comment on the older article I mentioned - it was consumed energy only. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If we limit this to locomotion for a single individual I think you would find the bicycle way more efficient than the kayak given a level playing field anyhow. And I do mean smooth level ground for the bicycle and calm water for the kayak. The variable would be the drag at any given speed and the efficiency of the transmission of the persons energy into motion. The kayak mushing through the water would have lots more friction and the mushiness of the water also effects the efficient transmission of the paddlers energy. Thinking about that for awhile I might put my money on ice skating. Of course, if you count the energy needed to freeze the ice on a path from Seattle to NYC into the equation the bet is off. I'm guessing the 747's efficiency was based on calculations just for level flight in the thin air at somewhere around 35,000 feet and didn't count the takeoff and climbing expenditures of energy. The bike calculations were probably not for a fully faired multi-passenger record breaking model either. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > Thinking about that for awhile I might put my money on ice > skating. I've done about 17 kph on speedskates (without specific training) sustained over two hours (Calgary's Olympic oval - one of the fastest tracks in the world) and just over 20 kph on inline skates in races of about 1/2 hour (city roads - I don't remember my speed on a marathon course). With training, I think that the ice skating would be somewhat faster (crossover strokes with those long blades take practice - and that's the only way to get speed in the turns). Comparable energy output on a racing bike (not mountain) would be comfortably over 30 kph. Cross-country skiing (classic, not free technique) would be about 12-14 kph. I'm obviously not fast compared to the pros. Speed doesn't factor directly into energy/kg/km so the above doesn't tell much. However, I know the bike is more efficient than XC skiing and I'd guess that it is also more efficient than skating - but not by a lot. Horses can run more efficiently than people can walk - hence if you could get a horse on a bike, that would set the land energy record. Back in the 19th century, someone tried this - a four wheel wagon with four pedals. They gave up trying to teach the horse to use the correct motion before getting useful results. Now a horse in a kayak... Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you calculate the energy necessary to construct the road a bicycle need to roll on, a kayak could be more efficient. Think of the first discoverers and settlers that came to populate North America. They where able to cross the continent relying almost only on their own effort. If they had to construct pathway for their bicycle they could still be at it. Michel Charlebois Le 06/12/12 07:48, + Matt Broze ; <mkayaks_at_oz.net> a icrit : > If we limit this to locomotion for a single individual I think you would > find the bicycle way more efficient than the kayak given a level playing > field anyhow. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michel Charlebois wrote: > Think of the first discoverers and settlers that came to populate North > America. They where able to cross the continent relying almost only on their > own effort. If they had to construct pathway for their bicycle they could > still be at it. Those who crossed North America by canoe did construct their own pathways. There are still remnants of the original portage paths in many parts of Canada. This past summer I had the great fortune to go paddling for a day with a local professor of botany who specializes in trees and forests. We paddled over to examine a prairie - on examining it, he declared that it was most likely the result of many generations of prescribed burns by the local First Nations (it was on a local reserve). He then told me that many of the other prairie areas here in Ontario (where boreal forest is the norm) are the result of a history of prescribed burns and that these prairies were used as portage routes. It is a lot easier to burn off a part of a forest and let a prairie grow than to cut a swath through a forest and maintain a road. The network of such prairie patches form a canoe pathway from the St. Laurence/Ottawa river valleys through the Great Lakes and on to the west past Lake Superior. These routes were the highways of the past and were manmade. The first Europeans who explored North America followed the routes already constructed by the First Nations. If you look at the experiences of the fur traders, explorers like Mackenzie or Lewis and Clark, they all relied on First Nations guides and knowledge of exiting routes. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-- Now that's really interesting... I wonder if it's possible to use satellite imagery to locate historical portages and hence canoe routes through that region. I'll have to give it a try on earth.google if they have good coverage of the area.... Also, I'm particularly interested for another reason; habitat for grassland nesting birds. Other than prairies, grasslands are the fastest-disappearing habitat in the east. NJ has only 3% of it still in existence and what's left is in jeopardy. Canada is still a major bulwark for many neotropical species and I gather that grasslands are in short supply in that area as well... Joe Pylka > [Original Message] > From: Michael Daly <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> > > These routes were the highways of the past and were manmade. The first > Europeans who explored North America followed the routes already constructed by > the First Nations. If you look at the experiences of the fur traders, explorers > like Mackenzie or Lewis and Clark, they all relied on First Nations guides and > knowledge of exiting routes. > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joseph Pylka wrote: > -- Now that's really interesting... I wonder if it's possible to use > satellite imagery to locate historical portages and hence canoe routes > through that region. I'll have to give it a try on earth.google if they > have good coverage of the area.... I can't help you there with specifics. However, there is a prairie remnant that connects Lake Simcoe to Georgian Bay in Ontario and was used as a trade route by early First Nations. You should see that. I don't know if you could tell the difference between a "natural" prairie (in the sense of being long established even though originally manmade) like this compared to farm land. I studied a teensy bit of air photo interpretation about 34 years ago but not enough to say. I suppose the prairie would lack linear features (fences, drainage trenches etc.) I know that some of the significant fur trade routes followed the big rivers in the east. From Montreal, they went up the Ottawa River to the Mattawa River, thence west to Lake Nipissing. From there, the French River to Georgian Bay and then along the North Shore route to Sault Ste. Marie and then Lake Superior. Most of these portage trails are relatively short. Many of these locations are good for sea kayaking or WW canoe and kayaking depending on your tastes. I've done different bits in all three craft and ... wow, what can I say - some of the best places in the world to paddle. The prairie type trails were used in places like Bruce Peninsula to allow them to take a shortcut across the peninsula from Georgian Bay to Lake Huron and thence to Michigan. That portage trail is marked with a historical plaque on Hwy 6 that runs up the peninsula. I think (can't remember exactly) that the eastern terminus is in the Lion's Head area where the peninsula is narrow - don't quote me. Back in 1967, a group of paddlers used big North canoes to cross Canada following the old canoe routes as a Centennial project - they ended at Expo 67 in Montreal. This has been repeated several times since, so those routes are known and may be documented on the web. Canadians see the canoe as integral to their cultural history; I don't think you'll find similar levels of knowledge of ancient canoe routes in the US. OTOH, other routes, such as the wagon trains are well documented, of course. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike said: Back in 1967, a group of paddlers used big North canoes to cross Canada following the old canoe routes as a Centennial project - they ended at Expo 67 in Montreal. This has been repeated several times since, so those routes are known and may be documented on the web. I was one of the paddlers on that 1967 trip. We wore voyageur outfits, slept under the canoes and generally tried to live a voyageur life while we paddled. We carried no furs other than a pet raccon which we managed to hand off to the Montreal Zoo. Unfortunately, I was too young to drink like a voyageur, so the high wine went to other, older, guys. We had three canoes, one of which was a birchbark North canoe. It now resides, as far as I know, in the Northwest Fur Company museum in Williamstown, Ontario. We 'officially' ended the trip at Expo 67, even carrying the canoes up into the Ontario pavillion. But the real end was Williamstown where we carried the birchbark, which we called "Reluctant Rosie" because it was not the easiest thing to paddle, into the museum, never to touch the water again. It was made by First Nations people with the understanding that it would be put in a museum but, it seems, no one told them it was going to be paddled to the museum. It leaked, it had a permanent left turn and it weighed a ton after soaking up a lot of water. But we had fun. The other two canoes were fibreglas, one was a North and the other was a 35 foot Canot du Maitre made by Ralph Frese, who also captained it. Hugh McMillan was one of the organizers of, and a paddler on, the trip. He authored a book called Adventures of a Paper Sleuth which tells of his historical research. Memories. . . Jim Tibensky Our longest portage, to get back to the original topic, was nine miles! (Canada was still on the English system of measurement in those days.) So not all the Voyageur Highway portages are easy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 12/14/06, James <jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm> wrote: "It was made by First Nations people with the understanding that it would be put in a museum but, it seems, no one told them it was going to be paddled to the museum." That's a great line. It helped me imagine your frustrations with that boat all those years ago. Thanks for my first laugh of the morning. :) Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Tibensky: > Our longest portage, to get back to the original topic, was nine miles! > (Canada was still on the English system of measurement in those days.) > So not all the Voyageur Highway portages are easy. Nine miles is the length of the Grand Portage trail from the fur trading post at Grand Portage, Minnesota, to the Pigeon River. I skied it once many years ago, but I have never hiked or portaged it. I think all the portages in Minnesota are at least documented, if not widely known. Those on the border between Minnesota and Ontario are mostly, if not entirely, still in use, as they are part of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness in Minnesota and Quetico Provincial Park in Ontario. I have myself carried a canoe over many of them. Such was the importance in the 19th century of the waterway along the border that the Webster-Ashburton treaty, which confirmed the border in its present location, specifically granted to the citizens of Canada and the USA the right to use the customary portages along the border regardless of which side of the border the portages happened to be. (The Treaty of Paris in 1783 established the border along the primary fur trade route west of Lake Superior. On that basis, some Canadians tried to claim all of Minnesota north of the St. Louis River, which is just south of Duluth. The Americans counterclaimed that the Kaministikwia River just southwest of Thunder Bay was the true border. Hence the need for the Webster-Ashburton treaty of the mid-1800s.) Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 14 December 2006 17:06, Craig wrote: > "It was made by First Nations people with the understanding that it > would be put in a museum but, it seems, > no one told them it was going to be paddled to the museum." > > That's a great line. It helped me imagine your frustrations with that > boat all those years ago. Thanks for my first laugh of the morning. :) Agree fully with Craig! Tord PS Once I owned a kayak that seems to have been related to that canoe, as it preferred turning to port ... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:43 PDT