http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1014133 Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote on 7/30/2007 11:54 AM, : > http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1014133 Paddling at 1am, and "Spitzer's kayak had no lights." John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The AP release had that... I wonder if they know that kayaks don't have to show lights (just carry a light - like a flashlight - to indicate position. Probably not. The article leaves the reader to infer that the kayaker had no business being out there with "no lights". Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 7/30/07, John Huntington <jhuntington_at_fastmail.net> wrote: > > Craig Jungers wrote on 7/30/2007 11:54 AM, : > > > http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1014133 > > Paddling at 1am, and "Spitzer's kayak had no lights." > > John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > kayaks don't have to > show lights (just carry a light - like a flashlight - to indicate position. The reason they have to carry the light is to show it. They are required to show it to any other traffic, such as a power boat bearing down on them at 1 am. If he didn't have the light or failed to show it, I hope he gets the appropriate charge from the Coast Guard. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/30/07, Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_greatlakeskayaker.ca> wrote: > > Craig Jungers wrote: > > > kayaks don't have to > > show lights (just carry a light - like a flashlight - to indicate > position. > > > The reason they have to carry the light is to show it. They are > required to show it to any other traffic, such as a power boat bearing > down on them at 1 am. > > If he didn't have the light or failed to show it, I hope he gets the > appropriate charge from the Coast Guard. > > None of the articles (or discussions) have indicated that the operator of the kayak did not have the required flashlight or did not show it. The articles said that the kayak did not have lights. Kayaks, as I said, are not required to have lights. Paddlers are but when they get out of the kayak then there is no light. I suspect someone looked at the kayak and noted that it had no lights and reported same. There is a discussion about this incident already and most responders are indicating that a kayak must display a light visible for two miles. Perhaps this is state law. It's not US law and as far as I know most state laws mimic the US laws in this regard. As for an appropriate charge from the USCG, that lake is under state control and law not US Federal Law. So any citation would be from the appropriate local authorities. Last night, as some may have noticed, was a bright full moon and there would likely have been quite a few boats out. There were here. Displaying a navigation light on a kayak cuts two ways: A) Yes, they might see you; and B) Then they might aim for you. I much prefer to keep a low profile until it looks dangerous. Just a couple of evenings ago I was paddling in the moonlight and had to shine my flashlight at a jetski (no lights). He appeared to see it and changed speed and veered away. Even not showing a light might be excusable under certain circumstances. I've had power boats suddenly leave from a nearby dock and head for me so close that I had little time. I could have turned on the flashlight and sat there while he ran me over or I could have paddled as fast as I could to get out of his way. According to one discussion list, the powerboat involved in the incident did not stop and they were looking for the operator. The fact that the operator of the other vessel did not stop after chewing a kayak into two pieces makes me suspect that the operator knew he/she was at least partly in the wrong. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > There is a discussion about this incident already and most responders are > indicating that a kayak must display a light visible for two miles. Perhaps > this is state law. It's not US law and as far as I know most state laws > mimic the US laws in this regard. I don't know the laws of your country in any great detail, but according to Chapman (Piloting, Seamanship & Small Boat Handling) it is US law (Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971 according to my 1975 edition). That's where I learned it formally decades ago. I don't know whether this applies to lakes. I know in Canada, national marine law applies to all "navigable waterways." The administration of the law is delegated from CG to provincial police to municipal police as appropriate. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/30/07, Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_greatlakeskayaker.ca> wrote: > > Craig Jungers wrote: > > > There is a discussion about this incident already and most responders > are > > indicating that a kayak must display a light visible for two miles. > Perhaps > > this is state law. It's not US law and as far as I know most state laws > > mimic the US laws in this regard. > > I don't know the laws of your country in any great detail, but according > to Chapman (Piloting, Seamanship & Small Boat Handling) it is US law > (Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971 according to my 1975 edition). That's > where I learned it formally decades ago. Your Chapman's seems to be different from mine (1981). Mine says that a boat propelled by oars "may" show a white 135 deg light visible for 2 miles but also says "need only have a flashlight or lantern to show white light." US law Title 33 Chapter 34 Subchapter I, Part C, Paragraph 2025, D, ii states: "(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision." Perhaps it was different decades ago... but I don't think so. A kayak may have but need not have navigation lights to operate at night but the paddler must have an appropriate light. Note that an all-around white light would probably not be legal in the USA as that generally indicates an anchored vessel. Also, it's quite likely that a 135deg white light on a kayak without appropriate 120 deg red/green bow lights would be illegal. Since USCG regulations are taken directly from International requirements, I would expect much the same in Canadian waters. I don't know whether this applies to lakes. I know in Canada, national > marine law applies to all "navigable waterways." The administration of > the law is delegated from CG to provincial police to municipal police as > appropriate. > In the USA a waterway is a part of navigable waters under certain defined conditions. (See 33 CFR Part 329.) In this particular case Lake Winipisaukie (sp?) has been defined as *not* under the authority of the USCG by a federal court decision that spelled out the state's authority to require registration numbers on documented vessels operating on that lake. So Lake Winip-whatever is covered by the appropriate laws of that Vermont which happen to specify the exact same requirements as required by the USCG. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] On 7/30/07, Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_greatlakeskayaker.ca> wrote: > Craig Jungers wrote: > > > kayaks don't have to > > show lights (just carry a light - like a flashlight - to indicate position. > > The reason they have to carry the light is to show it. They are > required to show it to any other traffic, such as a power boat bearing > down on them at 1 am. > > If he didn't have the light or failed to show it, I hope he gets the > appropriate charge from the Coast Guard. Well I have been just carrying a flashlight to "show" to other traffic as is required. But when I get home I am going to dig out my white light on a pole and make sure I can mount it behind me in my boat and start using that in addition to the flashlight. Noel -- Noel Davis FurledSails Sailing Podcast http://www.furledsails.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/30/07, Noel Davis <noel.davis_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Well I have been just carrying a flashlight to "show" to other traffic > as is required. But when I get home I am going to dig out my white > light on a pole and make sure I can mount it behind me in my boat and > start using that in addition to the flashlight. You might want to rethink this. First of all, I am not a lawyer. However, I was a merchant marine officer. A white all-around light is legally displayed by an anchored vessel and if you show this light on a moving kayak and there is an incident, the other person will have grounds for shifting his liability to you. If I were another boat in a collision with you I would claim that I thought it was a stationary anchored vessel and the fact that it was actually moving was not obvious until it was too late to maneuver to avoid a collision. I would also point out that the operator of the kayak did not use a flashlight as the USCG regulations stipulate. I'm thinking I'd get off. Kayaks are vessels and subject to the Rules of the Road. You can choose to mount traditional running (navigational) lights or carry a white light to be displayed to ward off a collision. No other *legal* nav light system is available to you and using anything else may increase your liability. There is another good reason for not doing this. I think everyone has had the experience of taking a compass bearing, determining a course, and marking it with a building, a mountain top, or a tower and using that as a guide rather than continuously watching the compass. In fact, the Boy Scouts recommend and teach this method. But a fast-moving powerboat at night can quickly overrun a slow-moving kayak. If the operator has mistaken a steady light on that kayak for something on shore and used it as a temporary guide, then the powerboat may be upon the kayak faster than the operator expected. Even a sober operator can be caught unawares by this. Certainly, having "tail lights" on a group of kayakers makes it easier to keep track of them. But I would *never*, under any circumstances, install and show an all-around light from my kayak. Especially in an area populated with powerboats. I would be too afraid it would make me a target. Instead I would make sure I had a legal light, stay as close to shore as possible, and remain as alert as possible to the movements of boat traffic. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/31/2007 11:25 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > You might want to rethink this. First of all, I am not a lawyer. However, I > was a merchant marine officer. A white all-around light is legally displayed > by an anchored vessel and if you show this light on a moving kayak and there > is an incident, the other person will have grounds for shifting his > liability to you. OK, now I'm really confused. Why does every (equipped) power boat I've ever seen have a white all around light, typically on a pole on their stern? John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/31/07, John Huntington <jhuntington_at_fastmail.net> wrote: > > > OK, now I'm really confused. Why does every (equipped) power boat I've > ever seen have a white all around light, typically on a pole on their > stern? > > Because it's a power boat and, for a power boat, red/green on the bow PLUS a higher white 225 deg (forward) light PLUS a white 135deg (aft) light at the stern is legal. For a small powerboat the two white lights may be combined into one "all around" light but should also have side lights. Unless you put some sort of mechanical propulsion device on your kayak it will be a vessel "powered by oars". This should not be confusing. The Rules of the Road are designed to not just tell you another vessel is out there; they are designed to tell you what type of vessel it is (sailboat, powerboat) but also how big it is, which way it's going, and what it's doing (fishing, towing, not under command, etc.). We cannot take the lights that are legal for a speedboat and just willy-nilly mount them on our kayak. I agree that 90% of the powerboaters (and, apparently, lots of paddlers) might not recognize the various lights and what they mean. But I can assure you that, in the event of an incident, you will be expected to have understood them. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.boatoregon.com/Laws/Equipment.html these are the same illustrations I got from the US Power Squadron when I took their course a dozen or so years ago. Scroll down the page to see: Sailboats and Boat Under Oars Note the difference between anchor light, (illustration below) 360 degrees visibility and the running lights in example 3 or 4. The stern light is about 120 degrees. This, combined with the 120 degrees of the starboard light or the port light helps others determine your direction of travel. Personally, when I get enough skill and confidence to venture out after dark, I will have a properly lit kayak, the LED lights should make it pretty easy. I don't know how having a head mounted light is going to fit into that equations yet, I suppose it will be on when I need it, otherwise depend on night vision like I used to do sailing. ******** I think this is my first post, so I will introduce myself. I am Mike Euritt, living in San Rafael, CA, just north of San Francisco. New to kayaking and getting used to the idea that falling out of your boat, and having it on top of you is just an inconvenience, not an emergency requiring Coast Guard assistance.. I have probably 50 hours of kayaking time, and this Sunday I will be taking my second level class in kayaking, braces and edging. I've learned a bunch from the list all ready, thanks everyone. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike said: <big snip> >Personally, when I get enough skill and confidence to venture out after dark, I will have a properly lit kayak, >the LED lights should make it pretty easy. I don't know how having a head mounted light is going to fit into >that equations yet, I suppose it will be on when I need it, otherwise depend on night vision like I used to do >sailing. Welcome to the wonderful world of kayaking, Mike. There's all kinds of kayaking and all kinds of opinions of how it should be done, that's the fun of a list like this. I have written before about the head mounted light and how I find it very useful while night paddling. I didn't mention before, but probably should have, that I normally paddle with the light OFF and only turn it on when I think there is a potential for a collision. This would be what other writers have referred to as "stealth" mode. This technique works for me because I am usually night paddling in very shallow water near shore with usually only one other paddler (my wife) in an area that does not see a lot of recreational or commercial traffic. I can see how people that paddle in larger groups in more congested areas might feel the need to put more lights on their boats for protection and to aid in group management. It's always good to hear from people in different environments and see how they have had to adapt their equipment and behavior to adapt. Once again, one size does not necessarily fit all. But whatever size you choose, it should meet the appropriate regulations (which a head lamp, shown in time to avoid a collision, does - for my waters). Mark Goff Hampden, Maine ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/1/2007 4:46:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sixteenfeet_at_sbcglobal.net writes: these are the same illustrations I got from the US Power Squadron when I took their course a dozen or so years ago. Scroll down the page to see: Sailboats and Boat Under Oars Note the difference between anchor light, (illustration below) 360 degrees visibility and the running lights in example 3 or 4. The stern light is about 120 degrees. This, combined with the 120 degrees of the starboard light or the port light helps others determine your direction of travel. Personally, when I get enough skill and confidence to venture out after dark, I will have a properly lit kayak, the LED lights should make it pretty easy. I don't know how having a head mounted light is going to fit into that equations yet, I suppose it will be on when I need it, otherwise depend on night vision like I used to do sailing. While you we are considering a lighting strategy for night paddling, please consider the fact that in a kayak we are MUCH lower to the water surface than almost all other vessels. Your lights will be lower and you may appear to be much farther away, if seen at all. In fact, when a vessel pilot is staring at a windshield full of urban lighting such as ports or large cities your being seen ought to reflect more your ability to know where you are and where they are than some puny light you stuck on back. In rural waters your lighting may well be seen, but its interpretation by the pilot is more important. They don't often expect kayaks at night so they may get closer to you thinking you are an actual vessel farther away. If you think that going brighter is the answer, think of what that may do to yours and your mates night vision. In urban areas, the ability to pick out buoyage against a lit urban background is more difficult when you go from yours or your mates lights to trying to pick up a small signal from a buoy a mile away against a well lit shoreline. In rural areas, picking out subtle details in unlit shoreline is also harder when your night vision is disturbed by the constant introduction of lighting. Cheers, Rob G ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob G. noted: consider the fact that in a kayak we are MUCH lower to the water surface than almost all other vessels. Haven't been able to read all the posts on this thread, I'm afraid, so apologies if I missed and am repeating a sub-thread, but I'm often alone in this one crusade, anyway: passive visibility. Unstealth. Yes, lights are good and flares are good, but there is another way to make yourself more visible in low light conditions through what I've heard described as passive visibility. Comes in three flavors: conventional surface visibility, retroreflective surfaces and flourescent painted surfaces. There was a convention in British sea kayaks in the UK -- might be still in force -- that hulls be gelcoated in some combination of hi-viz "international" orange, bright yellow, or white. No-brainer there, but some combination of those colors is going to make your kayak more visible in restricted visual meteorological conditions (VMC) or in partial darkness than one coated in dark blue or green. Same with the paddler: brighter colors, yellow, orange PFD and cap -- easier to see and identify. Retroreflectivity is a step beyond simple reflective tape. Has to do with the ability of SOLAS-type tape or patch surfaces to return a significant percent of a source light to the sender when the surface is not completely perpendicular to the light path. (In other words, if the Queen Mary hit you dead ahead with her bow spotlight coming down the channel, and you had a glass mirror ready to send a bit of that light right back at her to show you had right of way, dammit, that returned light signal would be pretty visible. Might not do much for you in that situation, but at least her bridge would know she just ran over a kayak. Retroreflectivity -- and retroreflective patches and tape -- make it possible for the Queen Mary to know that you're out there off the starboard bow, even if all your retroreflective surfaces are positioned ten or 15 degrees out of the light source path -- assuming she has a light shining ahead and you're close to its beam. Just better and brighter, but still totally dependent on the approaching vessel illuminating the area ahead with search light of some sort. (Dark night, Queen Mary coming down the creek, turning 35 knots with conventional running lights, you out there in the middle of the channel with 400 square inches of retroreflective tape on you and your kayak -- it's crunchy kayak time again. They can't see a thing.) For a good example, see the illumiNITE site at http://www.illuminite.com/Catalog/outdoor/11609.htm. Ain't cheap, but it works! Flourescent paint or flourescent clothing is another way to be passively visible in times of low visibility. (Doesn't do a lot for you at night, but in dusk and fog, it's awesome.) My Europaddle blades are a bright yellow hi-viz flourescent paint ($5 at Lowes), and my cap is a cycling cap of extremely visible yellow with some thin lines of retroreflective tape for good measure. It works. Try it on a group paddle sometime, and see which kayaker you see first coming out of the haze. Lights are great and they're required for good reason. But we're low, wave-hugging little buggers out there, and passive viz might well be the best defense against concrete fishing boats and the Queen Mary. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday 02 August 2007 13:42, Mike wrote: > Personally, when I get enough skill and confidence to venture out > after dark, I will have a properly lit kayak, the LED lights should make > it pretty easy. I don't know how having a head mounted light is going to > fit into that equations yet, I suppose it will be on when I need it, > otherwise depend on night vision like I used to do sailing. Problem is really waves, as lights on the kayak itself will only very occasionally be visible to others! A brightly lit up paddle should on the other hand be very visible to other traffic. But as always, it is a balance between night vision and being visible! Highly reflective tape on cap/helmet, PFD and paddle is probably better, more fail safe, and what we use - combined with florousent tape on one side of the paddle blades (highly reflective on the other side) - we also have flourosent vests we can don, on top of the PFDs, and strobes! >From the air, a kayak lit up by hundreds of LEDs (technically feasable - and not very powerhungry) )would stand off really well, but it would ruin your night vision very well! I think I'll continue the passive way, plus a flashlight, if needed! I have navigational lights, that I can attach to top of the mizzen mast, with LEDs - not yet tested in a 'live situation' - just the living room :-)! 12V, powered by the bilge pump/GPS battery. Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Next week there will be a requirement for fog horns and turn signals. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 8/3/07, blackey_at_sonic.net <blackey_at_sonic.net> wrote: > > Next week there will be a requirement for fog horns and turn signals. > There is already a requirement for a fog signal: Rule 35. It is commonly ignored for yachts at anchor or a mooring. There is no specific exemption for vessels propelled by oars alone. Apparently 35 (i/j) would apply; "A vessel of less than 12 meters in length<http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/pops/def_3ij_length_bredth.htm>shall not be obliged to give the above mentioned signals but, if she does not, shall make some other efficient sound signal at intervals of not more than 2 minutes." Apparently no one actually reads this stuff. But if you think it doesn't apply then have an accident and see. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Apparently no one actually reads this stuff. But if you think it doesn't >apply then have an accident and see. > > > Or simply _float_ too close to a secure area and see. btw, some "secure areas" are not obvious. Just ask the turtle sub artist/patriot guy. :-) Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Highly reflective tape on cap/helmet, PFD and paddle is probably better, more fail safe, and what we use - combined with florousent tape on one side of the paddle blades (highly reflective on the other side) - we also have flourosent vests we can don, on top of the PFDs, and strobes! I must admit to slight confusion here. What is the difference between fluorescent tape and highly reflective tape? I have my paddle blades painted with yellow "fluorescent" paint and then have reflective tape on them, but I am unsure what is most visible after dark. Pam in Washington State ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > I must admit to slight confusion here. What is the difference between > fluorescent tape and highly reflective tape? Pam, the fluorescent tape typically takes UV light in and puts it back out in the visible spectrum, making for vibrant, brighter colors, hence Hi-vis orange, red, and yellow use that method to achieve a greater intensity. But, the advantage is minimal at night, inasmuch as the usual light sources (spotlight, etc.) do not have much (any) UV in them. OTOH, the highly reflective tape (viz., SOLAS) reflects visible light _directly_back_to_the_source_ in such a way that if your boat is hit by a spotlight, the reflection is greatly enhanced for the person holding the spotlight. This makes you enormously more visible to a searcher equipped with a searchlight. Ordinary reflective tape spreads out the reflected light over a wider arc on return, so the source does not get nearly as much visible light back. A strip of SOLAS along your gunnels and on your arms, and on your PFD front and back is good marking for times when a light source is on you. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 03 August 2007 22:59, Pam wrote: >> Highly reflective tape on cap/helmet, PFD and paddle is probably >> better, more fail safe, and what we use - combined with florousent >> tape on one side of the paddle blades (highly reflective on the other >> side) - we also have flourosent vests we can don, on top of the PFDs, >> and strobes! > > I must admit to slight confusion here. What is the difference between > fluorescent tape and highly reflective tape? I have my paddle blades > painted with yellow "fluorescent" paint and then have reflective tape on > them, but I am unsure what is most visible after dark. > Fluorescence is an effect where a high energy photon triggers a low energy photon - often it's a UV photon that triggers a red, ambler, green, blue, or yellow photon - especially visible in fog, where the sun's UV rays still trigger the photons in paddle jackets, PFDs, et cetera. Reflective tape just reflects light: shine a red light on it and you'll get a red reflection, shine a red light on a flourescent painted surface and you'll most likely get nothing! So a mix is best, as I wrote before: One side of our paddles have fluorescent tape, the other red reflective tape! See http://foldingkayaks.org/gallery/XXL/Dayglo and the following four pictures! All the best, Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Pamvetdr_at_aol.com wrote: > > I must admit to slight confusion here. What is the difference between > > fluorescent tape and highly reflective tape? > > Pam, the fluorescent tape typically takes UV light in and puts it back out > in the visible spectrum, making for vibrant, brighter colors, hence Hi-vis > orange, red, and yellow use that method to achieve a greater intensity. > But, the advantage is minimal at night, inasmuch as the usual light sources > (spotlight, etc.) do not have much (any) UV in them. > -- I wonder if he actually meant Luminescent (glow in the dark) tape... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > You might want to rethink this. First of all, I am not a lawyer. However, I > was a merchant marine officer. A white all-around light is legally displayed > by an anchored vessel and if you show this light on a moving kayak and there > is an incident, the other person will have grounds for shifting his > liability to you. [...] > > Kayaks are vessels and subject to the Rules of the Road. You can choose to > mount traditional running (navigational) lights Ok, just to be annoying... How do you tell the difference between an all-around white light and a legal stern-facing white light when the vessel is moving away from you at slow speed? How do you tell a hand-held flashlight shining at you from an all-around light? How do you tell an anchored vessel rotating on its anchor rode from a slow moving vessel? How do you tell a forward-facing white mast light on a power vessel from an all-around white light if the vessel is hull down (red/green lights not visible)? Remember that the legal stern-facing light has a arc of visibility of 135 degrees. A legal forward-facing white light has an arc of 225 degrees. That makes it possible to see white light for 135+225 = 360 degrees. Obviously, a sufficiently long observation will tell you what you need to know, but if it's something that you have to deal with relatively quickly to avoid an incident, you don't have that time. One thing that is problematic is the regs on paddle and oar powered vessels WRT rules of the road (whether for lighting or right of way) is that there are ambiguities. The texts use fuzzy terms like "may" rather than specific ones like "must". They are notable for what they leave out rather than what they include. All-round white lights are sold for marine use on non-anchored small vessels. The C-Light has been a standard light for small craft for decades. The key, of course, is for the operator of a vessel to be diligent and cautious. Make no assumptions. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, of course one needs to be diligent and alert and not assume the other person is. Some of the issues you raise might be valid for navigation purposes, but my post referred to the legalities of navigation signals (they aren't all lights, you know) and liability issues after an incident. If the opposing team can show that your vessel, regardless of intent, displayed the wrong signals, they can move at least some of the liability to you. Regardless of what you think are ambiguities in the rules, nothing is going to make an all-around white light legal on a moving kayak powered by oars. Even if you include red/green bow lights. And remember that a vessel overtaking another vessel has an obligation to keep clear (is "burdened" in Rules-of-the-Road-speak) of the vessel being overtaken. If the overtaking vessel is going too fast to determine the status of any "white light" they see, then they are obliged to slow down or stop to determine the safe course before proceeding. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you watched my video from Sunday, you'd have seen that many motor vessels don't seem to realize us kayaks have the right of way. I had to go out and demand my rights! www.sandmarks.vidshadow.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/31/07, Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com> wrote: > > If you watched my video from Sunday, you'd have seen that many motor > vessels > don't seem to realize us kayaks have the right of way. I had to go out and > demand my rights! > > Surprisingly enough, kayaks don't automatically have the right of way. At least not in the USA on waters controlled by the USCG. Only Rule 25 (concerning lights) of the USCG Inland and International Rules of the Road addresses vessels powered by oars. There is no absolute Federal rule that gives right of way to kayaks, canoes or rowboats. There are, however, some State boating safety regulations which do (Oregon and Washington do, for instance). These state laws probably only apply to waters which are not under the jurisdiction of the USCG (mainly lakes and rivers not used in international commerce). So, essentially, you have no rights other than those under the regular Rules of the Road and those given under "spcial circumstances" of Rule 2. Time to go learn what they are! :) A vessel propelled by oars might fall under the rule 12 (Sailing Vessels) since a kayak is allowed to display the same lights as a sailing vessel of similar size but there is no specific Rule giving the right of way to a kayak. Notwithstanding that, if you are a "stand on" vessel by the Rules, then you must continue your course and speed until such time that it is obvious that the other vessel is not going to avoid the collision. If you give way too soon and an incident does occur, it's possible that you would be liable. If you give way too late then you could be dead right. This web site makes remarkable reading: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Well, of course one needs to be diligent and alert and not assume the other > person is. Some of the issues you raise might be valid for navigation > purposes, but my post referred to the legalities of navigation signals (they > aren't all lights, you know) and liability issues after an incident. If the > opposing team can show that your vessel, regardless of intent, displayed the > wrong signals, they can move at least some of the liability to you. > > Regardless of what you think are ambiguities in the rules, nothing is going > to make an all-around white light legal on a moving kayak powered by oars. > Even if you include red/green bow lights. > > And remember that a vessel overtaking another vessel has an obligation to > keep clear (is "burdened" in Rules-of-the-Road-speak) of the vessel being > overtaken. If the overtaking vessel is going too fast to determine the > status of any "white light" they see, then they are obliged to slow down or > stop to determine the safe course before proceeding. > > Craig Jungers > Royal City, WA As with many of the discussions on Paddlewise, I'm finding this one to be quite interesting. As someone who paddles rarely at night, and then generally in quiet backwaters, I've not really paid much attention to night lighting. I've tried a headlamp, but they blind other paddlers when you turn to say something to them. I own one of the white light on a suction cup with a 6 or 8 inch "tower" that I've used on my back deck (too much light for me to have a hope of seeing anything outside of the small circle of illumination when it's in front of me), but that only works well when all the other paddlers are in front of me so they don't get blinded by it. I've tried a flashlight, but I've not yet found one that I can put on a leash and tuck under the deck rigging in front of me in any convenient manner yet. (Although my search has been _far_ from serious, since, as I said, I don;t really do much night paddling anyway.) I once read that kayaks ride too low for "normal" red/green running lights to be of much use. If they are seen, the other boats assume that they have spotted a power boat a long way distant, rather than a low kayak up close. The implied suggestion (as I understood it) was that it might be more dangerous to have the red/green running lights than not. In any case, thanks for the discussion. Although I remain convinced -- from personal observation -- that many of the powerboat and PWC operators know less about the "rules" than I do, it's good to have discussions like this bring the applicable rules and regs to our attention. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting Darryl <Darryl.Johnson_at_sympatico.ca>: >> Well, of course one needs to be diligent and alert and not assume the other >> person is. Some of the issues you raise might be valid for navigation >> purposes, but my post referred to the legalities of navigation signals (they >> aren't all lights, you know) and liability issues after an incident. If the >> opposing team can show that your vessel, regardless of intent, displayed the >> wrong signals, they can move at least some of the liability to you. >> >> Craig Jungers >> Royal City, WA > > As with many of the discussions on Paddlewise, I'm finding this one > to be quite interesting. > > As someone who paddles rarely at night, and then generally in quiet > backwaters, I've not really paid much attention to night lighting. > I've tried a headlamp, but they blind other paddlers when you turn to > say something to them. I own one of the white light on a suction cup > with a 6 or 8 inch "tower" that I've used on my back deck (too much > light for me to have a hope of seeing anything outside of the small > circle of illumination when it's in front of me), but that only works > well when all the other paddlers are in front of me so they don't get > blinded by it. After reading all the e-mails about rules and regs (gag me matey) and the advisability of wrapping your kayak in Christmas lights when paddling at night, I've decided to take the road more traveled, turn my kayak into a marigold planter, and take up macrame. I swear on a stack of Seakayaker magazines. Brad Crain *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Kayaks are vessels and subject to the Rules of the Road. You can choose to > mount traditional running (navigational) lights or carry a white light to be > displayed to ward off a collision. No other *legal* nav light system is > available to you and using anything else may increase your liability. Good point the rule is: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm ************************************************************************* RULE 25: SAILING VESSELS UNDERWAY AND VESSELS UNDER OARS (a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: 1. sidelights; 2. a sternlight. (b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. (c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule. (d) 1. A sailing vessel of less than 7 meters in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. 2. A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision. (e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so. ******************************************************************************************* After reading the rule I have to agree with you about the all around white light on the back of my kayak all by itself. To be legal I should either carry a flashlight or add the red green sidelights. The river I normal kayak at night on has virtually no traffic at night, but it also has no shallow area to hide from power boats. Going to have to give this some thought. I could mount my read green dinghy light on the boat in addition to the white light. Or I could just stick to the flash light. Anyone have any opinions? On the side of flashlights we have the whole idiot who aims at the light on your kayak thing. But on the side of full time lighting I did avoid running over Mark Przedwojewski in this years Everglades Challenge (I was in a sailboat) because of the light on his canoe. There may not be a right answer. Thanks, Noel -- Noel Davis FurledSails Sailing Podcast http://www.furledsails.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7/31/07, Noel Davis <noel.davis_at_gmail.com> wrote: > > > After reading the rule I have to agree with you about the all around > white light on the back of my kayak all by itself. To be legal I > should either carry a flashlight or add the red green sidelights. Yup. The river I normal kayak at night on has virtually no traffic at > night, but it also has no shallow area to hide from power boats. Can you get up close to the bank? Rivers can be especially hazardous at night because the visibility is often restricted by bends and obstructions. But power boaters everywhere are loathe to get close to the bank; they like the middle. > Going to have to give this some thought. I could mount my read green > dinghy light on the boat in addition to the white light. Or I could > just stick to the flash light. Anyone have any opinions? Well, we all know my opinion on this by now. But I also might add moving the flashlight in a pattern that makes it appear different from a car's lights or a porch or street light. Circular patterns, criss-cross, up and down, side to side, etc. And there are some very good flashlights available now, too. > There may not be a right answer. There is a legal answer and then the answer "to be safe". Years ago we had to carry the kapok-filled USCG approved "life preservers" to be legal and a well-designed (but not - at least then - approved) PFD to be safe. But I think paddlers need to be sure they are legal to preserve their rights in any legal action. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: <snip> >Even not showing a light might be excusable under certain circumstances. >I've had power boats suddenly leave from a nearby dock and head for me so >close that I had little time. I could have turned on the flashlight and sat >there while he ran me over or I could have paddled as fast as I could to get >out of his way. I find that a head lamp is pretty much the perfect light for night paddling. You can paddle towards safety while keeping your head turned towards the threat, warning it off. Shaking your head makes it blink; it might catch their attention better. If the threat is from directly behind you, you will probably have to stop paddling in order to aim the light, but it works great from all other angles. You might also want a backup light fastened to your kayak bungees in case you lose the head lamp in a capsize or it fails in some fashion. Mark Goff Hampden, Maine ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Goffma_at_aol.com wrote on 7/30/2007 5:56 PM, : > I find that a head lamp is pretty much the perfect light for night paddling. At Sebago Canoe Club, we just did a full moon paddle on Jamaica Bay (Brooklyn) Saturday. We had 18 boats, and I was doing sweep. I REALLY appreciated those who (like me) had a continuous white 360 degree light on their back decks. From behind, I couldn't see those who had only head lamps at all, nor could any of the power boaters out there. Also, when I rolled my boat (first time in total darkness!) my headlamp shorted out. As for the gentleman who said that boaters might aim at the white light, I don't know where he paddles! :-) In my experience in fairly urban paddling, people generally would aim AWAY from the white light, since for all they know it's another power boat. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John said: > At Sebago Canoe Club, we just did a full moon paddle on Jamaica Bay > (Brooklyn) Saturday. We had 18 boats, and I was doing sweep. I REALLY > appreciated those who (like me) had a continuous white 360 degree light > on their back decks. From behind, I couldn't see those who had only > head lamps at all, nor could any of the power boaters out there. I had a similar experience this weekend. Our club, California Kayak Friends, had a full moon paddle in Channel Islands Harbor and I too was the sweep. We had a couple of new paddlers with us who couldn't keep up with the group, so we were probably about a 1/4 mile behind them. Most of the time, I couldn't see the other boats. Some people had bought real cheap chemical glow sticks and they were worthless. I was trying out a new set of lights that I had just purchased. These were made by Seattle Sports and consisted of a combination red/green light for the bow and an all around white light on a 2 foot rod for the rear. They attached via suction cup to my deck and clipped to a deck line as well. At the end of the night, people kept commenting on how visible my boat was. I have now bought a set of these for my wife's boat as well. Steve Holtzman Southern California and no relation to Seattle Sports - in fact I bought the stern light and the bow light at two different outfitters. _____________ NOD32 EMON 2429 (20070730) information _____________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system http://www.eset.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've found headlamps (the LED jobbies they sell everywhere now) are way too bright. And shining it at the oncoming boater might destroy his night vision at exactly the time you want it to be at its best. If you're alone it's perhaps not so bad but if you are with anyone else you will surely destroy their night vision too. And possibly your own. As far as having boats follow white lights, you would be surprised. I had a friend who served on a light ship off the Columbia River and he told me horror stories of ship captains bearing down on them out of the fog. I'm with Jackie. Glow sticks are your friend. They are bright enough to see from close by but not bright enough to attract unwanted attention. I put my flashlight under a bungee on deck. Craig Jungers Royal City, WA On 7/30/07, Goffma_at_aol.com <Goffma_at_aol.com> wrote: > > Craig wrote: > > <snip> > >Even not showing a light might be excusable under certain circumstances. > >I've had power boats suddenly leave from a nearby dock and head for me > so > >close that I had little time. I could have turned on the flashlight and > sat > >there while he ran me over or I could have paddled as fast as I could to > get > >out of his way. > > I find that a head lamp is pretty much the perfect light for > night paddling. > You can paddle towards safety while keeping your head turned towards the > threat, warning it off. Shaking your head makes it blink; it might catch > their > attention better. If the threat is from directly behind you, you will > probably have to stop paddling in order to aim the light, but it works > great from > all other angles. You might also want a backup light fastened to your > kayak > bungees in case you lose the head lamp in a capsize or it fails in some > fashion. > > Mark Goff > Hampden, Maine *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: >http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1014133 > > > Glow sticks are your friends. Especially on a 1:00 a.m. paddle. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] At 06:43 PM 7/30/2007, Jackie Myers wrote: >Craig Jungers wrote: > >>http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=1014133 >> > >Glow sticks are your friends. Especially on a 1:00 a.m. paddle. I've posted about an incident that I was involved with here before but essentially I was doing a full moon paddle with a group when most the paddlers had head lamps. Flashing them at a boat that was approaching in our direction didn't seem to make a difference. When he was about 200' away and still on a collision course I blew my Fox Storm whistle as loud as I good and that finally got the boat operators attention.. The powerboat wasn't going fast but he obviously wasn't watching where he was going either. For those that have plastic boats, placing a bright flashlight inside the cockpit lights up the boat rather nicely, especially if the boat is yellow. John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu Ithaca, NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: I've found headlamps (the LED jobbies they sell everywhere now) are way too bright. And shining it at the oncoming boater might destroy his night vision at exactly the time you want it to be at its best. If you're alone it's perhaps not so bad but if you are with anyone else you will surely destroy their night vision too. And possibly your own. <snip> I'm with Jackie. Glow sticks are your friend. They are bright enough to see from close by but not bright enough to attract unwanted attention. I put my flashlight under a bungee on deck. Steve Holtzman wrote: I was trying out a new set of lights that I had just purchased. These were made by Seattle Sports and consisted of a combination red/green light for the bow and an all around white light on a 2 foot rod for the rear. They attached via suction cup to my deck and clipped to a deck line as well. At the end of the night, people kept commenting on how visible my boat was. Here in Chicago there are two major sea kayaking clubs which offer evening paddles on Lake Michigan during the summer months. Although these rarely last until 1 am, folks are out on the water after dark, and with varying degrees of night lighting. Some folks realize the value of kayakers doing their best to look like one of 'them' (power or sail craft). Having a combination red/green bow and white stern light allows the paddler to be recognized, even from a distance, and also to convey directional information. While those who don't often paddle after sunset may not want to spend the $$ for outfitting the boat with bow and stern lights, the next best thing, IMO, is to carry a bright headlamp, as it can be kept pointed in the direction of oncoming traffic while paddling like hell to get out of the way. Many years ago, I borrowed a friend's kayak for my wife-to-be to use on a trip, and wanted to test-paddle it myself prior to returning it - the only option being a night paddle. I opted for a longish route, even with NE wind and somewhat bouncy conditions, and at the half-way point had to cross the mouth of Calumet Harbor, an international shipping port on the south side of Chicago. Just outside the mouth of the harbor and a bit too late, I realized that a fuel barge being pushed by a tug was bearing down on me fast. With a bright 4 x AA cell light biner'd to the shoulder strap of my pfd (perfectly legal), I quickly stopped paddling to shine the light at the tug captain, who quickly cut the engines. Even so, and feeling that he was too close for comfort, I let the light hang down while paddling like hell off to the side. The outcome was good as he missed me, and it was probably a good thing that the wind and waves kept me from understanding what he was saying on the tug's outside PA system. That evening I had opted to use only a handheld light, which required the cessation of paddling to operate. I had a headlamp at the time, but felt that it was not bright enough for night paddling, and hadn't bothered to bring my bow/stern lights along for that paddle. With the advantages of lighting technology over the last 10 years, there is, IMO, no reason for paddlers to NOT have either a red/green bow/white stern combination - or at very minimum - a 'way too bright' LED headlamp for paddling in busy commercial/recreational waters after dark. A handheld light just isn't good enough, and I'm not sure I'd trust light/glow sticks in such waters. Erik Sprenne at the southern end of Lake Michigan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... 940 lines were removed from this post to meet policy] My understanding of the proper lights for kayaks (non motorized vessels) we have two light choices 1. A white flare up to be shown in time to avoid collision ie a flashlight, headlamp etc. This can be shown towards the vessel and in addition I use it to shine on my hull letting the approaching vessel know what I am. 2. Use a white stern light with port and starboard running lights. A non-motorized vessel doesn't show a white light forward. At night that is the way other vessels can determine if a vessel is motorized or not. Showing a 360 degree white light by itself would say you were at anchor. A 360 degree white light shown with running lights would show you to be a power driven vessel since you would be showing white within the same area as your running lights. Michael Collins *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Collins wrote: > 1. A white flare A white flare is a whole 'nother thing. Let's not get too excited about flares. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I hate to give the impression to any other vessel that I have any real speedy maneuverability. Waving my flashlight has always proven the best option. Movement on a horizontal plan is my preference with the light. The reflective perimeter tape around my kayak is easy to outline with the flashlight. Other than a few close calls over the years with other vessels, my only real scare at night has been the fright from suddenly surfacing marine animals. That one still gives me pins and needles on my face. Don't tell anyone. :-) Doug Lloyd > My understanding of the proper lights for kayaks (non motorized vessels) > we have two light choices > > 1. A white flare up to be shown in time to avoid collision ie a > flashlight, headlamp etc. This can be shown towards the vessel and in > addition I use it to shine on my hull letting the approaching vessel know > what I am. > > 2. Use a white stern light with port and starboard running lights. A > non-motorized vessel doesn't show a white light forward. At night that > is the way other vessels can determine if a vessel is motorized or not. > Showing a 360 degree white light by itself would say you were at anchor. > A 360 degree white light shown with running lights would show you to be a > power driven vessel since you would be showing white within the same area > as your running lights. > > Michael Collins *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Other than a few close calls over the years with other vessels, my > only real scare at night has been the fright from suddenly surfacing > marine animals. That one still gives me pins and needles on my face. > Don't tell anyone. :-) I've had fish landing on my boat in the dark. Wasn't really an unexpected surprise, though, because they were splashing all around us. Probably more erie rather than scary is having large, glowing unidentified creatures passing under my boat in the Sea of Cortez. Erie, but thrilling, too. Bioluminescence. Did have a vessel speeding across the water at night with no lights on. Picked up a high-powered spot light, flashed it his way to let him know we were there and he veered off. He would not have heard one of those hand-held air horns. The spotlight was used for locating landing spots along the shore at night. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Night storm paddling is still the eeriest experience...the inky black wall of each swell bloting out the dim lights of shoreline as each swell closes by, only the rise of the bow giving hint of the mass about to pass underneath and the stealthy roil of the breaking lip just visible as it bears down on a moonless night. Doug Ingognito > Doug Lloyd wrote: > > > > > Other than a few close calls over the years with other > vessels, my > > only real scare at night has been the fright from suddenly > surfacing > > marine animals. That one still gives me pins and needles on my > face. > > Don't tell anyone. :-) > > > > I've had fish landing on my boat in the dark. Wasn't > really an > unexpected surprise, though, because they were splashing all > around us. > > Probably more erie rather than scary is having large, glowing > unidentified creatures passing under my boat in the Sea of > Cortez. > Erie, but thrilling, too. Bioluminescence. > > Did have a vessel speeding across the water at night with no > lights on. > Picked up a high-powered spot light, flashed it his way to let > him know > we were there and he veered off. He would not have heard > one of those > hand-held air horns. The spotlight was used for > locating landing spots > along the shore at night. > > > Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
And this is the answer from California Department of Boating: This is in answer to your question watercraft illumination between sunset and sunrise and the issue of who has jurisdiction of the waterways you have listed. Federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies utilize lighting or illumination specifications noted the Inland Rules of the Road, Title 33 United States Codes section 2001, et seq. for safety for all vessels, including powered, sail and manually propelled craft, as specified. The state has incorporated these federal statutes by reference in Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations Section 6600.1, pursuant to the authority granted in Harbor and Navigation Code section 655.3 and they are currently enforceable by state and local law enforcement agencies that have authority to enforce the provisions or the California Harbors and navigation Code, or local ordinances adopted pursuant to the authority found in California Harbors and Navigation section 660 (a). Inland Rules of the Road, Rule 25 subpart (d) (ii), i.e., Title 33 USC 2025, states, "A vessel under oar may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels*, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent a collision." This would include all manually propelled vessels, such as kayaks, canoes, and rowboats. {*subsection (a) of this rule requires sailing vessels underway to exhibit: (i) sidelights; and (ii) a stern light) With regard to the question concerning which agency has law enforcement jurisdiction on those waterways which you listed, we do not maintain a list of which agencies are responsible for boating safety on these waterways. We would suggest that you contact the sheriff of the county in which these waterways lie, because some of these, such as Lake Tahoe and San Francisco Bay are under concurrent jurisdiction (with federal, state or multi-state, and local, i.e., city, county or city and county law enforcement agencies), while others are under sole state or local jurisdiction. .Please let us know if you have any further questions. Mike Sotelo Regulations Unit CA Dept of Boating and Waterways (916) 263-0787 --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I kinda like the light-inside-the-kayak for plastic yaks. An orange kayak would have a nice glow on Halloween evening. You could even leave it on the lawn with a light on in it and pumpkin head atop sans helmet for decorative effect. Not sure what would happen if two paddlers were out in the late evening, one with a glowing red plastic kayak, and one with a red glowing kayak. Might confuse the skipper of an approaching vessel... Me, no lights at night, incognito, go to places where other boats don't frequent. Doug L > After reading all the e-mails about rules and regs (gag me matey) and > the advisability of wrapping your kayak in Christmas lights when paddling > at night, I've decided to take the road more traveled, turn my kayak into > a marigold planter, and take up macrame. I swear on a stack of Seakayaker > magazines. > > > Brad Crain *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Good point! If you're paddling close enough to the rocks and waves, a motorboat's got bigger troubles than a kayaker frantically waving his Eveready at you. Course, you still might not live to watch him realize the error of his ways. I love that word "incognito", I'm going to be saying it all day long for no appropriate reason! -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Doug Lloyd Me, no lights at night, incognito, go to places where other boats don't frequent. Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Neato, incognito frito bandito y burrito chico Mark Sandito! BRC-ito Quoting Mark Sanders <sandmarks_at_ca.rr.com>: > Good point! If you're paddling close enough to the rocks and waves, a > motorboat's got bigger troubles than a kayaker frantically waving his > Eveready at you. Course, you still might not live to watch him realize the > error of his ways. > > I love that word "incognito", I'm going to be saying it all day long for no > appropriate reason! > > -----Original Message----- > Behalf Of Doug Lloyd > > > Me, no lights at night, incognito, go to places where other boats don't > frequent. > > Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday 03 August 2007 23:22, Darryl wrote: > I once read that kayaks ride too low for "normal" red/green running > lights to be of much use. If they are seen, the other boats assume > that they have spotted a power boat a long way distant, rather than a > low kayak up close. The implied suggestion (as I understood it) was > that it might be more dangerous to have the red/green running lights > than not. Too right! At least put the light on a stub mast, so it's a few feet over the water level! Ours is mounted on an about six feet long mast, which doubles as mizzen mast :-)! Tord *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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