G'Day Craig and Paul, Something I've not covered is the situation regarding the NSW Maritime Code as it applys to kayakers along the coast. Before I describe it from a kayaking perspective thought I'd try to set the background with a scenario and question. One I've been meaning to ask Paddlewisers for a long time. Imagine you are the leader of a group either formally through signing an agreement at the start of a trip or informally 'elected' as the most experienced member in a troublesome situation. There are five of you paddling north on a moonless, cloudless night about a kilometer off the east coast. This stretch of coast is mostly uninhabited cliffs with no landing. The cliff line runs roughly south to north between a harbour and a beach 10km north of the harbour. The beach has no significant surf. . There are bommies every so often within 50m to 200m of the cliffs. There are no bars, or tide races en route. You have left a trip plan with the local coastal patrol. The sea is showing white caps and is 1.5 metres on top of a 2 to 3 metre southerly swell. The wind is around 12 to 15 knots from the North East, expected to turn NW later in the evening. Forecasts in this area are usually reliable. You and your buddy are strong paddlers, very experienced in paddling at night. The three others are strong paddlers well used to these conditions for day time paddling. but their night time paddling has been in harbours and estuaries and they are a bit nervous. All of you know each other, and all have well practiced rescue, roll and self rescue skills in these sea conditions. There are no VHF repeater stations along the cliff. You've chucked your ipods and sunglasses into the sea where they have been stolen by beautiful mermaids:~) * How would you ensure you didn't lose a member of the group * If you did lose a member of the group how much time would you spend searching before calling for help. What methods would you use for the search and for the call? * If it were daytime how much time would you spend searching before calling for help. What methods would you use? BTW occasionally I lead trips like this during the day when called on by my mates, but although I've also led night time paddles I wouldn't lead a paddle like the one described. One or two of my very capable friends do and describe them well. Of course the point I'm trying to make is pretty obvious, but I'm keen to hear a broader view. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter In response to your 'a scenario and a question' - great exercise. May I try it on our club leaders sometime ? So I'm feeling stupidly brave and I'll risk a response - with the hope that I'll be torn apart quite ruthlessly ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand ** How would you ensure you didn't lose a member of the group I have done this sort of thing only 3 times at night, in rather smaller seas and swell. You do want to have confidence in your group members and confidence in the weather. The easiest way not to lose a member would be to call it off - and that should be the decision if the risk-mitigation doesn't stack up. In NZ, if there was a chance of a NW wind, there would be some chance of a WNW wind. I'd be very interested in how likely a W wind might be - from a weather check before setting out. Any likelihood of an offshore 15+ knot wind in the dark would have me saying "no thanks". I wouldn't attempt it without my local leeward string of offshore islands as a Plan-Z destination. We have a saying "Next stop, Chile'. So, if we get over that hump, I'll hold you to that 'cloudless' - with reliable forecasting bet. Then, I am assuming some starshine - so you have visibility for perhaps 100m if you are not being blinded by any on-board lights. If it were here in NZ, we could douse any bright lights and attach low-output chem-lights to our chin-strapped hats, PFDs or light/flag masts (if you have them) so that your visible range (visible to each other) is extended. Best if they are on YOU and not the boat - as you are more interested in the paddler. I would expect that you all carry VHFs - as personal-safety kit, worn on you - not the kayak. Our favoured ship-to-ship (ie: non-repeater) channel here is Ch.6 - and I'd expect each group member to monitor that, in case any of the group needs to make contact via radio - for whatever reason. I'd also do a radio check every half hour. In this sea-state, kayak stability would be an issue during VHF use. Something like a Nordkapp would need more attention than a Sea Bear during a VHF chat. One element in the risk-assessment... I'd also expect hand-held flares (flame not smoke) - again on YOU and not just on/in the kayak. Also split paddles (each - or at least one for the group) or paddle-leashes for those without a split-paddle. This level of gear doesn't guarantee anything - but it's fair to say that it's absence does indicate a worrying belief in invulnerability. >From the start - ie: in the harbour - I'd form up the group into a line-abreast pod formation - with the two night-experienced paddlers at each end of the line. I'd get each of the five paddlers comfortable with both recognising and keeping an eye on the guys/gals 'next door'. In those wind & sea conditions, regular contact and even conversation is still going to be possible. I wouldn't tolerate any departure from this line-abreast formation going upwind, Coming home (I assume we're going to come back home downwind ?) will pose a greater challenge for the group to stay together as the surfing opportunities differ across the row. It may be looser, but the same formation should still be possible. I'd have an agreed process for assisted rescue - with the three inner (and somewhat weaker) paddlers having a plan for rescuing each other if their roll fails. Self-recovery is good, assisted is faster and the pod should - must - stay together through all recoveries. Responsibility for assistance to the two 'end' paddlers (if they should need it) should also be made clear to their neighbours. I'd also stress early reporting of any slippage in self-confidence or queasiness or dizziness - any reduction of fitness level - whoever might be experiencing this. Put it that it is a courtesy to the group to alert them to a change in the group's health. Then I'd number-off and repeat that number-off call pretty regularly during the paddle. If someone's not responding - you stop, look & VHF. If you're one down - then we've just failed question one... ** If you did lose a member of the group how much time ** would you spend searching before calling for help. ** What methods would you use for the search and for ** the call? The course of action I'd take here is pretty immediate - but that is based on having run a tight ship up to this point. On a easier & looser trip, there would be more scope for simply mislaying someone with no immediate concern that they were in deep trouble. So, I would first consider carefully the likelyhood of the member having fallen behind or having shot ahead. I would be damn worried if I couldn't make VHF contact - that would make me think they were likely in the water - and behind. They might of course, be ahead with their radio off / wrong channel / muted. I'd determine when the last certain sighting of the missing member was and where the group was right now - either by GPS or best guess. Knowledge of the route's VHF/cellphone coverage - and likely SAR (Search & Rescue) capabilities - would be a key determinant here. It sounds like I would have that local knowledge in this scenario. If I had Ch 16 contact with a SAR station, I'd have one member keep working Ch 6 (calling the missing member) while I logged an incident on Ch 16 as a Pan-Pan - with the information I'd just determined. I would also state that I was commencing a 10 minute downwind search as a group of four. If no success, I would upgrade that to a Mayday. If I had no Ch 16 response (either direct or via another vessel), I would try Ch 6 & 8 for other vessels (to use as possible repeaters) and then try for cell-phone contact with a SAR station. Failing that, but in the knowledge that there was a competent (several vessel and/or chopper) SAR capability - I would head back for the harbour to raise an alarm. If I knew that I was going to have no VHF cover and no cellphone cover - or that the SAR capability was crap - I think I'd be at home. Should've said that at the top... If I were within 2.5 km of the beach - and if I knew that the beach offered a reliable comms-link of some sort (phone, cell-coverage, VHF), I would carry on there instead - I'd get an alert logged faster. But the harbour should be less than an hour away (downwind - even if I'm at the beach) and an early SAR alert would appeal to me more than an extended search effort from the height of a sea-kayak seat. If heading for the harbour, I'd go slow and in a search pattern line-abreast for the first 10 minutes - with head torches or bright lights now on to look for reflective tape and to indicate to the missing member that the search was on and a flare might be a good move... If heading on for the beach (see above), I'd still do a 10-minute downwind search first. I would have to soul-search very hard before I would split the group. ** If it were daytime how much time would you spend searching ** before calling for help. What methods would you use? Probably spend 5 minutes looking downwind first - covering a much larger visual range than at night - by virtue of a several-times wider spacing between the 4 searchers. Then a Pan-Pan, then 15 minutes more searching before a Mayday. If no comms until land, pretty much the night-time thinking & behaviour. OK ball's in your court - I'm going to bed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Id have the two most exerieced paddlers each buddy up with one other paddler and they would have to be in contact with each others at all times (the two paddlers). I'd float myself between the two pods maintaing contact with both alternatiningly. I'd have a clipped-to-PFD-mic for my VHF; all members would have a VHF. We'ed all have glow sticks on our hats and flares ready to go. Alternatively, I just go alone. Doug Lloyd > G'Day Craig and Paul, > > Something I've not covered is the situation regarding the NSW Maritime > Code as > it applys to kayakers along the coast. Before I describe it from a > kayaking > perspective thought I'd try to set the background with a scenario and > question. One I've been meaning to ask Paddlewisers for a long time. > > Imagine you are the leader of a group either formally through signing an > agreement at the start of a trip or informally 'elected' as the most > experienced member in a troublesome situation. > > There are five of you paddling north on a moonless, cloudless night about > a > kilometer off the east coast. This stretch of coast is mostly uninhabited > cliffs with no landing. The cliff line runs roughly south to north between > a > harbour and a beach 10km north of the harbour. The beach has no > significant > surf. . There are bommies every so often within 50m to 200m of the cliffs. > There are no bars, or tide races en route. You have left a trip plan with > the > local coastal patrol. > > The sea is showing white caps and is 1.5 metres on top of a 2 to 3 metre > southerly swell. The wind is around 12 to 15 knots from the North East, > expected to turn NW later in the evening. Forecasts in this area are > usually > reliable. You and your buddy are strong paddlers, very experienced in > paddling > at night. The three others are strong paddlers well used to these > conditions > for day time paddling. but their night time paddling has been in harbours > and > estuaries and they are a bit nervous. All of you know each other, and all > have > well practiced rescue, roll and self rescue skills in these sea > conditions. > There are no VHF repeater stations along the cliff. You've chucked your > ipods > and sunglasses into the sea where they have been stolen by beautiful > mermaids:~) > > * How would you ensure you didn't lose a member of the group > > * If you did lose a member of the group how much time would you spend > searching before calling for help. What methods would you use for the > search > and for the call? > > * If it were daytime how much time would you spend searching before > calling > for help. What methods would you use? > > BTW occasionally I lead trips like this during the day when called on by > my > mates, but although I've also led night time paddles I wouldn't lead a > paddle > like the one described. One or two of my very capable friends do and > describe > them well. Of course the point I'm trying to make is pretty obvious, but > I'm > keen to hear a broader view. > > All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My lack of local knowledge makes this difficult; especially trying to outguess the weather. But I think there are too many paddlers. I'd prefer one-on-one for experienced to inexperienced so one of the newbies will have to stay home tonight. This will make two teams of two paddlers. They should stick together no matter what. Each paddler should have on his/her person: VHF GPS Hand Held Pen Flares (if available, otherwise any maritime emergency flare) Ginger (for nausea) Tow Belt 3 cyalume chemical lightsticks Combination Strobe and Steady PFD-mounted light LED waterproof flashlight Drysuits Protein snacks Drinking water Because of the difficulty communciating with SAR along the proposed route it seems prudent to me to arrange for a launch or powerboat to accompany the paddlers. It's a short route (10k) but the increased ability of a launch to communciate (25w VHF and high gain antenna) would increase safety. The launch would also relieve the paddlers of taking care of an incapacitated paddler who succumbs to sea sickness. All paddlers should be briefed regarding the risks of sea sickness and instructed to take ginger at the first symptoms (lethargy and mild nausea). Ginger is a proven remedy for sea sickness and is cheap and easy to get. If one paddler goes missing the trip leader should immediately notify the launch and all persons should mark a waypoint on their GPS units. The launch should attempt to contact the missing paddler via VHF and visual means and drop back as much as one nautical mile while searching. If no sight of the missing paddler(s) the launch should initiate a pan-pan call on VHF channel 16. The remaining three paddlers should group together and keep a sharp lookout for the missing paddler pending a decision to continue to the destination. After 15 minutes of seaching the launch should initiate SAR communications; this might require that the launch move to a position where VHF contact is possible. If any paddler loses the rest of the group (s)he should be instructed to activate the strobe light on the PFD, call the launch on the VHF channel agreed upon, attempt to re-enter the kayak but if unable to do that stay with the kayak and await help. NOTES: If the paddle were along a coastline where there were possible landing zones and better communications with SAR authorities I would not require the launch. But given the two new paddlers and the risk of sea sickness on a night paddle in the open ocean I think it would be prudent. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Craig, Can you (or anyone) provide references for the research on ginger for treating nausea? Thanks, Emile ________________________________ From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> To: rebyl_kayak <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> Cc: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 10:37:21 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How long would you wait - (was Kayaks and Visibility) Ginger is a proven remedy for sea sickness and is cheap and easy to get. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Emile Zen <emilezen_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Hello Craig, > > Can you (or anyone) provide references for the research on > ginger for treating nausea? > > A television in the US called "Mythbusters" set up an elaborate scheme to test motion sickness remedies. The short answer is that ginger was the only remedy that kept the two subjects from getting motion sick (vomiting) without serious side effects. I can't find the actual episode (43) that you can download but their testing scheme looked pretty well done to me. Annotated information: http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode_43_seasickness_cures_f.html >From the Mythbustersresults site: "Seasickness can be cured by taking a ginger pill. confirmed Both Adam and Grant made it through their spin-chair sessions without feeling ill." (Link: http://mythbustersresults.com/episode43) Then there is this: http://www.healthcastle.com/ginger.shtml which has a short paragraph on research: "Conducted by Svensborg Hospital in Denmark, seasickness trial and clinical study have shown that ginger was as effective as over-the-counter drugs in dealing with motion sickness. It is indeed a safer option that OTC drugs which cause drowsiness. Another clinical study conducted by Department of Anesthesiology at St. Bartholomew's Hospital in London showed that 1g of ginger powder was as effective at preventing postoperative nausea and vomiting as the tranquilizer commonly used by hospitals and much safer." Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have used ita gave some powdered ginger to a paddle who was feeling queasy in some choppy water. He mixed it in some water & drank it & was able to continue paddling. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 07:07:05 To: Emile Zen<emilezen_at_yahoo.com> Cc: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Ginger (was: How long... (was Kayaks and Visibility)) On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Emile Zen <emilezen_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Hello Craig, > > Can you (or anyone) provide references for the research on > ginger for treating nausea? > > A television in the US called "Mythbusters" set up an elaborate scheme to test motion sickness remedies. The short answer is that ginger was the only remedy that kept the two subjects from getting motion sick (vomiting) without serious side effects. I can't find the actual episode (43) that you can download but their testing scheme looked pretty well done to me. Annotated information: http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode_43_seasickness_cures_f.html >From the Mythbustersresults site: "Seasickness can be cured by taking a ginger pill. confirmed Both Adam and Grant made it through their spin-chair sessions without feeling ill." (Link: http://mythbustersresults.com/episode43) Then there is this: http://www.healthcastle.com/ginger.shtml which has a short paragraph on research: "Conducted by Svensborg Hospital in Denmark, seasickness trial and clinical study have shown that ginger was as effective as over-the-counter drugs in dealing with motion sickness. It is indeed a safer option that OTC drugs which cause drowsiness. Another clinical study conducted by Department of Anesthesiology at St. Bartholomew's Hospital in London showed that 1g of ginger powder was as effective at preventing postoperative nausea and vomiting as the tranquilizer commonly used by hospitals and much safer." Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Where might one find powdered ginger? Sounds like a good thing to pack in case any in a group gets sick -- could really help some trip. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of jvolin_at_optonline.net Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:35 AM To: Craig Jungers; owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Emile Zen Cc: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Ginger (was: How long... (was Kayaks and Visibility)) I have used ita gave some powdered ginger to a paddle who was feeling queasy in some choppy water. He mixed it in some water & drank it & was able to continue paddling. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:19 PM, John Clinton <jcbikeski_at_gmail.com> wrote: > Where might one find powdered ginger? Sounds like a good thing to pack in > case any in a group gets sick -- could really help some trip. > Try health food stores or candy suppliers. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I heard that she was on Gilligan's island. -----Original Message----- From: John Clinton Where might one find powdered ginger? Sounds like a good thing to pack in case any in a group gets sick -- could really help some trip. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Many supermarkets carry it in the 'Spices' section. Penzeys is a good online source - http://www.penzeys.com -- Chris Broome Morro Bay, CA ************************************************************************* John Clinton wrote: > Where might one find powdered ginger? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The candied stuff can be found in most natural foods stores, including the bulk sections of enlightened supermarkets, etc. Powdered ginger will have lost a lot of its punch from evaporation/oxidation. I've never tried ginger as an anti-nausea treatment. Certainly works to calm my tummy, though. Some folks can not tolerate it at all. Scope patches work well for me, but they do make me a bit weird. My son worked as a charterboat deckhand out of Depoe Bay, OR one season and was on the stuff for almost 2 months straight. Not recommended. Scope (aka scopolamine) is strictly a prescription item: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine Dramamine works for some, but has some of the same side effects of scope. Being OTC, it is an easier find. Takes a while to work, so you need to dose up the night before. Ditto for a scope patch. Dramamine (aka dimenhydrinate): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimenhydrinate -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > The candied stuff can be found in most natural foods stores, including > the bulk sections of enlightened supermarkets, etc. Powdered ginger > will have lost a lot of its punch from evaporation/oxidation. I've > never tried ginger as an anti-nausea treatment. Certainly works to calm > my tummy, though. Some folks can not tolerate it at all. > > Scope patches work well for me, but they do make me a bit weird. My son > worked as a charterboat deckhand out of Depoe Bay, OR one season and was > on the stuff for almost 2 months straight. Not recommended. Scope (aka > scopolamine) is strictly a prescription item: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine > > Dramamine works for some, but has some of the same side effects of > scope. Being OTC, it is an easier find. Takes a while to work, so you > need to dose up the night before. Ditto for a scope patch. > > Dramamine (aka dimenhydrinate): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimenhydrinate > Coincident with this thread, I was piqued by a recent commercial on Canadian TV recently which showed a Gravol box with the words "Ginger" displayed prominently. Although I generally mute commercials, I did catch the ending of this one, and I think I heard them extolling the "non-drowsy" effects of the ginger, compared to the 'old' gravol that was often used by parents of motion sickness disposed children as as much of a sleep aid as anything. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> used by parents of motion sickness disposed children as as much of > a sleep aid as anything. > > -- > Darryl I believe each contains benadryl which we used exactly once on a long trip to quiet our then small children. My wife who is a surgeon carefully gave out what she thought would be a correct dosage for each child. Our son who was about 4 quietly went slacked jawed and started to breathe so shallowly it scared us both to death. My daughter who was 2 1/2 went hyper and bounced around in her car seat as much as she could and had a grand time. You just never know. Lets get back to Paddlewise basics and start an argument about rudder vs skeg. I'll start. It depends. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>It depends. > Nope. That's yet another topic... JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Farrelly wrote: >> used by parents of motion sickness disposed children as as much of a >> sleep aid as anything. >> >> -- >> Darryl > > I believe each contains benadryl which we used exactly once on a long > trip to quiet our then small children. My wife who is a surgeon > carefully gave out what she thought would be a correct dosage for each > child. Our son who was about 4 quietly went slacked jawed and started to > breathe so shallowly it scared us both to death. My daughter who was 2 > 1/2 went hyper and bounced around in her car seat as much as she could > and had a grand time. You just never know. > > Lets get back to Paddlewise basics and start an argument about rudder vs > skeg. I'll start. > > It depends. > > Jim et al Rudder boxes never leak! No... wait... Rudders don't have boxes. Ah well, so much for *that* argument. -- Darryl (whose skeg box has never leaked either) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I prefer Mary Anne and rudders over Ginger and skegs. DL >> used by parents of motion sickness disposed children as as much of >> a sleep aid as anything. >> >> -- >> Darryl > > I believe each contains benadryl which we used exactly once on a long > trip to quiet our then small children. My wife who is a surgeon > carefully gave out what she thought would be a correct dosage for > each child. Our son who was about 4 quietly went slacked jawed and > started to breathe so shallowly it scared us both to death. My > daughter who was 2 1/2 went hyper and bounced around in her car seat > as much as she could and had a grand time. You just never know. > > Lets get back to Paddlewise basics and start an argument about rudder > vs skeg. I'll start. > > It depends. > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's a recent study related to cancer treatment related nausea http://www.asco.org/ascov2/Meetings/ASCO+Annual+Meeting/2009+ASCO+Daily+News /Sunday,+May+31,+2009/PUBLISH+AHEAD+OF+PRINT:+Ginger+Provides+Significant+Re duction+of+Chemotherapy-induced+Nausea -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Emile Zen Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:58 AM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Ginger (was: How long... (was Kayaks and Visibility)) Hello Craig, Can you (or anyone) provide references for the research on ginger for treating nausea? Thanks, Emile ________________________________ From: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> To: rebyl_kayak <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> Cc: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 10:37:21 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How long would you wait - (was Kayaks and Visibility) Ginger is a proven remedy for sea sickness and is cheap and easy to get. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Where might one find powdered ginger? Sounds like a good thing to pack in >case any in a group gets sick -- could really help some trip. > Try the spice aisles of any supermarket. It and candied Ginger are commonplace these days... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter >In response to your 'a scenario and a question' - great exercise. >May I try it on our club leaders sometime ? G'Day Paul, Craig, Doug and Paddlewise. Paul please do and I'd love to hear what they come up with. Impressed with the quick response. Just returned from work and put together my version. Quickly scanned the three plans so far submitted but haven't read in detail and haven't incorporated ideas from them yet. I'm sure I will later though. I just wanted to see how my own knowledge would hold up in this situation. Also to make it clear that I'm not competent to lead or advise on such a trip. I only trust about three kayakers that I have paddled with who could lead it. BASIC EQUIPMENT Well maintained sea kayak with secondary buoyancy and at least 2 bulkheads, or a fitted sea-sock Fitted deck lines, paddle and paddle leash, spray skirt, sponge, bailer and pump system, PFD with a suitable whistle attached by a lanyard, Cag or paddle jacket, warm clothing, all accessible from the cockpit, Food and two litres of water - all accessible from the cockpit, Footwear suitable for paddling, swimming and walking on rocks, Further warm clothing, waterproof clothing, footwear, food, water and a day pack, secured in dry storage in the kayak, Tow rope - with suitable bag and fittings for quick deployment Hands-free bailing pump system (i.e. electric or foot pump), Spare paddle, Personal first aid kit, garbage bags and/or 'space blanket', Personal medication as required Compass and charts mouinted on deck with key names marked in larger print GPS Instantly accessible knife, Kayak plumbers patch repair kit Personal tether attached to PFD for connection if necessary to boat - not mandatory but I would have one Emergency energy bars in pocket of PFD SIGNAL EQUIPMENT equivalent to Flares in day hatch and minirocket flares in waterproof pack tethered inside back pack of PFD 406 MHz PLB incorporating GPS in waterproof pack tethered inside backpack of PFD VHF radio Boat or person mounted low intensity lights as described in previous posts capable of being seen over 360 degrees and normally on all the time Waterproof head torch, normally off, but for use for reading GPS phone etc Shoulder mounted high intensity strobe or steady light capable of lasting 12 hours only for emergency Mobile phone with each paddlers number and the SAR number preprogrammed for easy dialling NOTES ON EQUIPMENT All electronic equipment to be freshly charged Personal tether is not mandatory I would carry one ready to be deployed if I was lost The mobile phone may sound odd, but in Oz its often more reliable than the VHF and the Coast guard invariably ask if you have one when you make a VHF call PREPARATION I would require that all paddlers be very familiar with the route having frequently paddled it in day time and in the conditions expected. The only novelty for three of the paddlers is that they are doing it at night. All five paddlers should be experienced at night paddling, but three will not have paddled at night on the open sea in conditions like this. Rendezvous points should be established en route for use as a last resort in the event of a multiple separation. En route this could be just prior to reaching a headland ie not so close as to be hazardous (bommies excessive rebound). All of this to be on the trip plan and the coast guard notified. An appropriate VHF communication channel to be agreed beforehand for use within the group and the coastguard notified of this when presenting the trip plan. The coastguard should be familiar with kayaks carrying out this kind of exercise i.e the group or at least the leader should be registered with the coastguard and know them well. The leader should be familiar with the communications difficulties en route and have at least one mode of communication available (mobile or VHF). The leader should check with the Coastguard that SAR is available on the night, if not the trip to be called off. Days beforehand everyone should have programmed and tested their mobiles with quick dial telephone numbers for the group and for SAR. This is not to be done on the day. Days beforehand the trip plan and on water protocols should have been circulated and discussed by the group. The group should have a history of doing significant exercises together (rescues tows rolling etc) under the sea conditions expected. Evening before the leader to ring each participant and check if they are ready and OK to go. Its understood that the trip will be cancelled if weather is in excess of that planned, any sign of sickness and it's a no go for the participant. Likewise if the leader or 2IC is sick the trip is called off. Absolutely no moral or peer pressure to be used on a participant to continue with the trip if they are hesitant. Set up half the cars at the beach if possible so that it isn't necessary to paddle back During the day and at the trip briefing - usual checks weather, route, coastguard etc. Trip briefing before the trip to include equipment count and : - 1. Remind everyone that if they separate from the group and from their boat their chances of survival are remote unless they use their PLB. (For a trip like this they would be expected to know this already). 2. Mandatory instruction that the group stay within formation and within easy talking distance of each other all the time. The skill level of all paddlers should be such that they can easily manoeuvre and rove between boats in the conditions expected even though that is not what is being asked for. I would place the three less experienced paddlers together in a row as buddies looking out for each other. The leader and 2IC are just behind them and rove forward regularly to communicate with the three. The role of the 2IC's job is to pre-empt any hint of group spread. The leader's job is to maintain the group on course. Both the 2IC and the leader are keeping an eye on the three paddlers for signs of difficulty. DESPITE THIS SOMETHING HAPPENS Group up the remaining kayakers. Strictly no searching as separate groups Instruct 2IC and Paddlers to each make a note of the GPS position either electronically or with grease pencil on hull of boat. Use whistle three short blasts wait for reply No reply - Repeat Radio the missing kayaker No reply Call coastguard and request SAR for missing kayaker If communication with coastguard fails call Mayday immediately. At this point I would not attempt to search outside a box of about 30 meters square. but would maintain position and group as a priority, searching within the box as a second priority and continue to use the whistle and the VHF radio to call for the boat until arrival of SAR or other rescue craft. Making sure that the group remains centred on the GPS position awaiting arrival of SAR. I don't pretend this is an adequate plan. It usually takes me days to work out such a plan and the one I was originally going to put to Paddlewise was simpler for a day time trip. Hopefully it gives enough idea of key elements I'm using that it can be critiqued. Thanks for all the responses so far. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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As a member of the local Search and Rescue unit (SAR)here is my suggestions. First before starting out establish a float plan. Since this is night paddling the margins for error are greater. Tell everyone to stay together. The fast paddlers need to ease up a bit and the slow paddler need to pick it up a bit. Make sure everyone has a whistle and some type of reliable light. make sure everyone knows that if someone becomes seperated from the group then the remaining paddlers gather with the leader before searhing. Otherwise you r group is too spread out for a search or, and I have seen this happen, the searchers become lost! Second since this is a night paddle when something goes wrong it often has a domino effect where things get worse quickly. If a member of the group were missing I would gather the remaining paddlers together and return to where the missing person was last seen. PLS (Place Last Seen in SAR jargon.) As you return to the PLS I would fan out the remaining paddlers to cover a lot of the search area. This includes one person traveling as close to shore as possible. One of my concerns would be vertigo brought on by night paddling. In this case the missing person may not be able to respond to hails. If the person was not found I would immediately contact the Coast Guard. If there is a problem, sickness injury ect. then time is critical. If I could not establish radio contact (even if there are no repeater give it a try incase a fishing vessel picks up your message) I would send the two fastest paddlers to paddle together back to the harbor (the reason for two if the first rule of SAR is not to create more victims.) The remaining paddlers would fan out and slowly paddle setting up a search pattern to cover as much ground as possible. Hope this helps Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "rebyl_kayak" <rebyl_kayak_at_energysustained.com> > G'Day Craig and Paul, > > Something I've not covered is the situation regarding the NSW Maritime Code as > it applys to kayakers along the coast. Before I describe it from a kayaking > perspective thought I'd try to set the background with a scenario and > question. One I've been meaning to ask Paddlewisers for a long time. > > Imagine you are the leader of a group either formally through signing an > agreement at the start of a trip or informally 'elected' as the most > experienced member in a troublesome situation. > > There are five of you paddling north on a moonless, cloudless night about a > kilometer off the east coast. This stretch of coast is mostly uninhabited > cliffs with no landing. The cliff line runs roughly south to north between a > harbour and a beach 10km north of the harbour. The beach has no significant > surf. . There are bommies every so often within 50m to 200m of the cliffs. > There are no bars, or tide races en route. You have left a trip plan with the > local coastal patrol. > > The sea is showing white caps and is 1.5 metres on top of a 2 to 3 metre > southerly swell. The wind is around 12 to 15 knots from the North East, > expected to turn NW later in the evening. Forecasts in this area are usually > reliable. You and your buddy are strong paddlers, very experienced in paddling > at night. The three others are strong paddlers well used to these conditions > for day time paddling. but their night time paddling has been in harbours and > estuaries and they are a bit nervous. All of you know each other, and all have > well practiced rescue, roll and self rescue skills in these sea conditions. > There are no VHF repeater stations along the cliff. You've chucked your ipods > and sunglasses into the sea where they have been stolen by beautiful mermaids:~) > > * How would you ensure you didn't lose a member of the group > > * If you did lose a member of the group how much time would you spend > searching before calling for help. What methods would you use for the search > and for the call? > > * If it were daytime how much time would you spend searching before calling > for help. What methods would you use? > > BTW occasionally I lead trips like this during the day when called on by my > mates, but although I've also led night time paddles I wouldn't lead a paddle > like the one described. One or two of my very capable friends do and describe > them well. Of course the point I'm trying to make is pretty obvious, but > I'm keen to hear a broader view. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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