I can't say one paddle is better than another unless I also specify the purpose. The more highly refined the paddle, the more narrow the purpose. Applying information from racing to recreational pastimes is of limited usefullness at best, and may be flat wrong at worst. Even making choices for one type of racing based on another type of racing is a very bad idea. A downriver racer will not likely use the same equipment as slalom racer. An openwater distance racer will use equipment different than either of them. It gets worse! An example from NASCAR. Racers in NASCAR (good ones, $$$$$) have different engines for qualifying and for racing. Without the special engine for qualifying, you chances of making the field are slim, and you have NO chance of being in the front of the pack at the start. That qualifying engine would NEVER last for a race. Which engine is better? None of those engines would be usefull at all on the street. The test in racing is winning. To win you must go as fast as possible while still being able to finish the race. Efficiency only enters the equation in the being able to finish part. Again from NASCAR, if the car runs out of gas on the way to victory circle, great. If you run out of gas on the backstreach of the last lap then your efficiency was not good enough. When a human is the source of power it adds another factor. Can the human train to the point where she/he can sustain the 'less efficient' but faster setup for the duration and thereby win? jhecht_at_capaccess.org wrote: > Of course there are differences among paddles. An Eskimo paddle may be > better for long steady paddles (though I don't like them for that or any > other purpose) whereas a wider euro paddle might be better for racing. Of > course time trials are hardly a recreational setting, but that's not the > point. Different paddles are better for different types of paddling. And > a high stroke and wing paddle may be faster, and therefore used by racers, > but that doesn't mean it will allow the average non-racing paddler to > cover his or her maximum distance in a day. -------------------------------------------- > Regarding the original point that the paddle doesn't move, just the boat > does - I have no idea whether that's true, To put it simply, it is NOT TRUE. Both the boat and the paddle move, but the boat moves a LOT more than the paddle. How much more? I don't know, has anyone done detailed studies? I would guess that the ratio of boat to paddle motion is at leats 10:1, maybe more, even much more. I just don't know. I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. The paddle MUST move some to generate any force. A very good paddle doesn't need to move much. I will end with a very old quote about boats that also applies to paddles. "A good boat is one that brings pleasure to her owner" michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote; -(SNIP) > >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. I will add another $100. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:52 AM -0400 7/23/98, John Winters wrote: >Michael wrote; > >-(SNIP) > >> >>I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move >>throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. > > >I will add another $100. > I'll throw in one picture of Mr. Franklin. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 07:46:23AM -0400, Michael Neverdosky wrote: > Applying information from racing to recreational pastimes is of limited > usefullness at best, and may be flat wrong at worst. I strongly disagree. Many of the innovations in boating have come from racing: in particular, the duffek stroke, squirt boating, and the sweeping changes in PFD design over the past couple of years all came from slalom racing. Those are completely obvious -- but there's also a more subtle transfer of technique going on. I do a fair amount of river paddling in addition to racing, and one of the things I've noticed over the years is that it's pretty easy to tell who the racers are while on a trip. They're the ones who can put their boats anywhere they want to -- catch any eddy, surf across any wave, and so on. They're also the ones with energy left over at the end of the day. Most of that is due to their use of correct techniques which maximize their paddling efficiency and boat control. Recreational paddlers who learn those techniques are often amazed at the difference that it makes -- I know, I teach them. > The test in racing is winning. To win you must go as fast as possible > while still being able to finish the race. Efficiency only enters > the equation in the being able to finish part. Not true. Efficiency is necessary in racing in order to go fast *and* conserve energy for critical moves. (In downriver, that might mean "running the big drop"; in slalom, that might mean "avoiding hitting the gates in the hole".) Nearly *everyone* can finish -- so that's not much of a factor at all. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-07-23 08:23:59 EDT, John Winteres <735769_at_ican.net> writes: << Michael wrote; -(SNIP) > >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. I will add another $100. >> <Now> this is getting interesting! Does the demonstrator get to specify the water? Fresh, salt, sewer, very thick? The depth? Like three inches? Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 09:21:15AM -0400, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-23 08:23:59 EDT, John Winteres <735769_at_ican.net> > writes: > > > > >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move > >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. > > > I will add another $100. >> I will be happy to take this bet, provided the phrase "forward stroke" is changed to "correctly performed forward stroke", since of course it's possible (however undesirable) to take a poor stroke and move the paddle. Please purchase a copy of "The Kayaker's Edge" video available any number of places, including directly from Performance Video, 550 Riverbend Road, Durango, Colorado 81301, 888-259-5805 24-hour order line, 970-259-1361 voice line, 970-259-4148 fax line. There is a demonstration of this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How about Minnesota "Wintertime Water"? I'll take the $100 bet that IT won't move. Larry Snow >---------- >From: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com[SMTP:JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 8:21 AM >To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Different paddles, different strokes Re: confused >Aussie :-) > >In a message dated 98-07-23 08:23:59 EDT, John Winteres <735769_at_ican.net> >writes: > ><< > Michael wrote; > > -(SNIP) > > > > >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move > >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. > > > I will add another $100. >> > ><Now> this is getting interesting! > >Does the demonstrator get to specify the water? Fresh, salt, sewer, very >thick? The depth? Like three inches? > >Joq >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well there could be a case were it dosn't move through water during a forward stroke especially if the blade were frozen in ice. :-) > >In a message dated 98-07-23 08:23:59 EDT, John Winteres <735769_at_ican.net> >writes: > Michael wrote; > -(SNIP) > >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move > >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. > I will add another $100. >> > ><Now> this is getting interesting! > >Does the demonstrator get to specify the water? Fresh, salt, sewer, very >thick? The depth? Like three inches? > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:43 AM -0400 7/23/98, Niels Henriksen wrote: >Well there could be a case were it dosn't move through water during a >forward stroke >especially if the blade were frozen in ice. :-) Don't be so sure. Even ice would flex when power is applied. The only way it would not move is if there was no force. It would take delicate instruments to detect the motion, but it would move. It is physically impossible for it to do otherwise. Even if the ice was perfectly stiff, it would just transfer the motion to the earth. Luckily for the people putting up the money, water is not very stiff, so the force applied moves the water no matter how good your stroke is. Actually failure to move any water would indicate an exceedingly poor technique. This technique is best represented by the "air brace". Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:11 7/23/98 -0400, Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_gsp.org> wrote: > > >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 09:21:15AM -0400, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 98-07-23 08:23:59 EDT, John Winteres <735769_at_ican.net> >> writes: >> >> > >> >I will offer $100 US to anyone who can prove that the paddle does not move >> >throught the water during a forward stroke in a kayak or canoe. >> >> >> I will add another $100. >> > >I will be happy to take this bet, provided the phrase "forward stroke" is >changed to "correctly performed forward stroke", since of course it's >possible (however undesirable) to take a poor stroke and move the paddle. > >Please purchase a copy of "The Kayaker's Edge" video available any number >of places, including directly from Performance Video, 550 Riverbend Road, >Durango, Colorado 81301, 888-259-5805 24-hour order line, 970-259-1361 >voice line, 970-259-4148 fax line. There is a demonstration of >this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. > >You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. > >---Rsk >Rich Kulawiec >rsk_at_gsp.org >*********************** kent ford's video "solo playboating" shows the same thing for canoes. since there were 2 offers of $100, and rich is only claiming one, i'll take the other half. video available from the same source rich listed... thanks ;-) mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: "I do not remember when is the last time I forgot something" -- Myles Johnson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:20 AM -0600 7/23/98, Mark Zen wrote: >At 10:11 7/23/98 -0400, Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_gsp.org> wrote: >>Please purchase a copy of "The Kayaker's Edge" video available any number >>of places, including directly from Performance Video, 550 Riverbend Road, >>Durango, Colorado 81301, 888-259-5805 24-hour order line, 970-259-1361 >>voice line, 970-259-4148 fax line. There is a demonstration of >>this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. >> >>You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. >> >>---Rsk >>Rich Kulawiec >>rsk_at_gsp.org >>*********************** > >kent ford's video "solo playboating" shows the same thing for canoes. >since there were 2 offers of $100, and rich is only claiming one, >i'll take the other half. video available from the same source rich listed... > Take your mind back to your physics class when you were in high school or college and think about this. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > > >>There is a demonstration of > >>this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. > >> > >>You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. > >> > > Take your mind back to your physics class when you were in high school or > college and think about this. Take your eyes to your TV and look at what they're doing. It certainly looks like the paddle is staying put--OK, maybe it moves a centimeter--and the boat is moving. But unless the bouy is also moving through the water, the paddle is pretty well fixed. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 5:10 PM -0400 7/23/98, Steve Cramer wrote: >Nick Schade wrote: >> >> >>There is a demonstration of >> >>this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. >> >> >> >>You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. >> >> >> >> Take your mind back to your physics class when you were in high school or >> college and think about this. > >Take your eyes to your TV and look at what they're doing. It certainly >looks like the paddle is staying put--OK, maybe it moves a >centimeter--and the boat is moving. But unless the bouy is also moving >through the water, the paddle is pretty well fixed. > >Steve A centimeter. So it is moving. Nobody says it has to move alot. We are just overcoming a little drag, not trying to accelerate, so we don't expect 3 feet. I expect with a really efficient boat and very good technique, 1 millimeter or less would be all to expect. The bet was, would the paddle move through the water, and the answer according to you is "yes, about 1 cm". I think the original idea that "...it is very much like having a long series of posts set in concrete under the water" was probably not meant literally by the coach. It is a visualization technique. Once you are up to speed, the amount of motion in the water is small so "very much like..." is pretty accurate. And if it helps you paddle better, go ahead and take it literally. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > > I think the original idea that "...it is very much like having a long > series of posts set in concrete under the water" was probably not meant > literally by the coach. It is a visualization technique. Once you are up to > speed, the amount of motion in the water is small so "very much like..." is > pretty accurate. And if it helps you paddle better, go ahead and take it > literally. > Having instructed several dozens of paddlers in all sorts of craft (not that I have more instructional experience than a lot of people here), I can tell you that as an instructional statement, the above is very useful. Perhaps not as graphic as Richard Culpeper's "******* the paddle" (Actually, I think I'd say "******* the water" so as to keep the power in line. Actually, I do use the phrase "hip thrust" a lot.). Also, I spent a weekend recently with a paddler who persisted in pulling the paddle through the water. This doesn't accomplish much, of course, and I felt lucky to get him down the river. Does anyone besides me and RSK talk about the "Catch" phase of the paddle stroke? Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:51:04PM -0400, Nick Schade wrote: > Take your mind back to your physics class when you were in high school or > college and think about this. I'll be happy to. I went to a lot of physics classes, since I majored in it. (Caveat: electromagnetism and quantum mechanics were my strong suit, not fluid dynamics. ;-) ) ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:32 PM -0400 7/23/98, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:51:04PM -0400, Nick Schade wrote: >> Take your mind back to your physics class when you were in high school or >> college and think about this. > >I'll be happy to. I went to a lot of physics classes, since I majored >in it. (Caveat: electromagnetism and quantum mechanics were my >strong suit, not fluid dynamics. ;-) ) > Ok, explain how you move the boat without moving the water. My explanation of why you can't I learned in high school. It has nothing to do with fluid dynamics, it is simple Newtonian physics -> F=ma. F is the force applied to the water, m is the mass of the water, a is the acceleration of the water. If the water does not accelerate F=0 and you are not really paddling. That is really all you need to know. If you prefer an electromagnetic example: Imagine the water is coil of wire (a solenoid) and your paddle is a magnet. If you push your magnet into the coil, the only way you will produce a force is if you create a current in the coil. If the coil is an open circuit, no current will be produce and no force will push back on your paddle/magnet. If you add the correct load your magnet will produce a current in the coil which will create an equal and opposite magnetic field striving to support your paddle. This only works as long as your paddle/magnet moves. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rich wrote; >I will be happy to take this bet, provided the phrase "forward stroke" is >changed to "correctly performed forward stroke", since of course it's >possible (however undesirable) to take a poor stroke and move the paddle. > >Please purchase a copy of "The Kayaker's Edge" video available any number >of places, including directly from Performance Video, 550 Riverbend Road, >Durango, Colorado 81301, 888-259-5805 24-hour order line, 970-259-1361 >voice line, 970-259-4148 fax line. There is a demonstration of >this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. > >You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. The video is proof of nothing. First the movement of the paddle in the water is not revealed since there is insufficient close up to show if there are eddies around the paddle. Also, if I recall the video correctly, (I think I saw it at a canoe show some time back) there is no way of knowing what the flow is from the shots. Hence the flow could be around the paddle and not revealed by the relative motion of the boat to background objects. Sorry Rich, you don't get off so lightly. To prove your point you must actually prove it. Mind, if you do prove it I will be first to nominate you for a Nobel Prize in Physics since you will have overturned one of the basic principles of physics that a fluid will not support sheer forces. It will be worth the $100. You can help us in proving it for you if you will tell us what constitutes a perfect stroke. Then, I can prove it for you in my tank. IT will be loads of fun. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 07:51:00AM -0400, John Winters wrote: > The video is proof of nothing. First the movement of the paddle in the > water is not revealed since there is insufficient close up to show if there > are eddies around the paddle. What difference would that make? The stipulation was that the paddle did not move, NOT that it didn't create eddies. > Also, if I recall the video correctly, (I > think I saw it at a canoe show some time back) there is no way of knowing > what the flow is from the shots. Hence the flow could be around the paddle > and not revealed by the relative motion of the boat to background objects. I'm not sure what you mean by this; do you mean the flow of the current? (I'm pretty sure this bit of video was shot on a lake.) ---Rsk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:58 AM -0400 7/24/98, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 07:51:00AM -0400, John Winters wrote: >> The video is proof of nothing. First the movement of the paddle in the >> water is not revealed since there is insufficient close up to show if there >> are eddies around the paddle. > >What difference would that make? The stipulation was that the paddle did >not move, NOT that it didn't create eddies. How did the eddies get there unless... the paddle... moved. Those little eddies are the reaction for the action of moving your boat forward. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
As Dan Hagen noted, it must be fun to argue about the little stuff that doesn't matter much - or something to that effect. All of this assumes a match between the paddle and the particular boat. If the boat has very little resistance to movement the paddle probably doesn't move much. If the boat has a lot more resistance than the paddle can move effeciently (i.e. paddling a supertanker, or a floating dock), then it will move significantly. - This would also be similar to the results you would get by paddling with a small round stick, no matter what your technique. Gotta go paddle -Have fun - Saul At 07:51 AM 7/24/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Rich wrote; > >>I will be happy to take this bet, provided the phrase "forward stroke" is >>changed to "correctly performed forward stroke", since of course it's >>possible (however undesirable) to take a poor stroke and move the paddle. >> >>Please purchase a copy of "The Kayaker's Edge" video available any number >>of places, including directly from Performance Video, 550 Riverbend Road, >>Durango, Colorado 81301, 888-259-5805 24-hour order line, 970-259-1361 >>voice line, 970-259-4148 fax line. There is a demonstration of >>this -- using stationary buoys -- about halfway through the tape. >> >>You may deduct the cost of the video from my $100 reward. > >The video is proof of nothing. First the movement of the paddle in the >water is not revealed since there is insufficient close up to show if there >are eddies around the paddle. Also, if I recall the video correctly, (I >think I saw it at a canoe show some time back) there is no way of knowing >what the flow is from the shots. Hence the flow could be around the paddle >and not revealed by the relative motion of the boat to background objects. > >Sorry Rich, you don't get off so lightly. To prove your point you must >actually prove it. Mind, if you do prove it I will be first to nominate you >for a Nobel Prize in Physics since you will have overturned one of the >basic principles of physics that a fluid will not support sheer forces. > >It will be worth the $100. > >You can help us in proving it for you if you will tell us what constitutes >a perfect stroke. Then, I can prove it for you in my tank. IT will be loads >of fun. > > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > Saul Kinderis saul_at_isomedia.com tel:(425)402-3426 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rich wrote; >I will be happy to take this bet, provided the phrase "forward stroke" is >changed to "correctly performed forward stroke", since of course it's >possible (however undesirable) to take a poor stroke and move the paddle. I don't think it matters what kind of stroke. Any stroke you choose that develops forward thrust should do. To keep things simple it would be best to perform your tests and proofs in deep water so there is no influence from the bottom and in clean non moving water at 59 degrees F so it will be easy to see that it is the paddle alone that is causing the observed phenomenon and that raw sewage or ice are not influencing the results. All that is needed for proof is to do the demonstration before impartial observers and the only evidence they need is that the boat was propelled forward but there was no turbulence around the blade to indicate motion. You might want to film it and be sure you can repeat the experiment so we can present it properly to the Nobel Prize people. ;-) Quite simple really. I suggest one attempt it first before accepting any wagers. :-) This discussion is in danger of becoming overheated. I recall Rich's statement was that the paddle does not move. I don't think he said that it only moved a little. Correct me if I am wrong. The statement as I recall it is inconsistent with the physics of fluids that I understand (and, of course, I could be wrong and often am) For example. fluid (fl”“īd) noun Abbr. fl, fl. A continuous, amorphous substance whose molecules move freely past one another and that has the tendency to assume the shape of its container; a liquid or gas. Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. This may not seem enlightening but I think it is. A fluid flows from an area of high pressure into an area of low pressure seeking equilibrium. When you apply pressure to the paddle blade there is a pressure differential between the front and back face. On one side it is higher than on the other side and the water wants to flow from the high pressure side to the low pressure side. This pressure differential can only occur if there is motion. A stationary paddle has no pressure differential. Three is a simple experiment to do at home. Fill your bathtub with water and then try to move your paddle through the water. Even if you apply only the smallest amount of force you will see that it moves and that the water flows around the edges of the paddle. No matter how you angle or twist the paddle you will find you cannot apply force without motion. When you are in a boat the force developed propels the boat. The speed of the boat depends upon the drag of the boat and the force direction of the exerted by the paddle. Now, people often assume that, because the motion of the paddle is small there is no motion mostly because it isn't really obvious. Why isn't there a lot of motion? The reason is that the force developed is a function of velocity, area, drag coefficient and fluid viscosity. We can ignore viscosity and deal only with the first three. The simplified equation is force = Cd * A * V^2. The important thing is the v^2. Twice the velocity produces four times the force. So, a fast hard pull on the paddle produces an enormous increase in power generated even though the duration and hence the distance travelled may be small. Note that there is nothing in the formula for distance travelled. Notice also that if velocity equals zero there is no force at all. Of course, if the drag coefficient and area are low then there may be considerable motion involved in achieving the same force. I suspect that Rich has observed (like so many people) no visible movement and concluded that there was no movement. I think this is an easy mistake to make particularly in moving water when it isn't always clear what is moving and when. It was expressed (by someone can't recall who) that it was a wonder that narrow paddles create force at all. Not so. Anything moving through the water creates a drag force and sometimes a lift force. Whether the force is a positive or negative thing depends upon your objective, The drag of the boat is negative and the drag of the paddle is (much of the time) positive. I have personal experience paddling a canoe with a pole and anyone who has watched Harry Rock do it will be amazed at the speed he achieves. No magic just velocity and drag at work. Can an infinite number of monkeys using an infinite number of pencils paddle a boat at an infinite speed? :-) At times we argue at cross purposes. For example, many people assume that all modern paddles are flat plates with no airfoil. Such is not nor need not be the case. It is often done as a flat plate for the economies of production (also sometimes they seem to work pretty well). Many home made low aspect ratio blades are foils and some of them quite good foils. It may be true that some modern blades do not perform in certain ways as well as most high aspect ratio blades but there is the difference between "some" and "all". To me it seems this is the crux of a lot of this debate - the comparison of some Greenland paddles with some modern paddles and drawing conclusions for all from a comparison of some. Steve writes. >Take your eyes to your TV and look at what they're doing. It certainly >looks like the paddle is staying put--OK, maybe it moves a >centimeter--and the boat is moving. But unless the bouy is also moving >through the water, the paddle is pretty well fixed. In this Steve is quite right. It doesn't look like they move a lot nor do they move a lot but they don't have too. Movement is movement and the movement is essential to developing thrust. Do you recall watching the old western movies and the wheels of the stage coach looked like the were standing still? Certainly looked like they didn't move. Not a fair analogy in this case but one must be careful with what we see. The issue here is not how much the paddle moves but does it move. Rich was quite clear about this. I think that if one thinks a bit about what a fluid is one can see that, since a fluid cannot support sheer forces the paddle has to move even at very small forces. Do not confuse the terms "support" and "resist". The internal forces in the fluid resist sheer (van der Waals forces?) but that is not the same as "support". Granted Rich's field is quantum mechanics and that may be the problem. Perhaps he has confused water with Shrodinger's cat or is it Heisenberg's Uncertainty. :-) Obviously quantum physics isn't my field :-)))) Just joking here folks. Don't get shorts in a knot. Kevin wrote; >One is that 'efficiency' needs to be broken down into absolute >power output from the paddle, versus the ratio of paddler power input over >paddle power output, where the latter is my definition of paddle >efficiency. The former is of interest to flatwater sprint kayakers where >speed is all that matters, the latter is of interest to recreational and >marathon sea kayakers where stamina and efficiency over long distances are >key. This doesn't appear valid. Why wouldn't racers be interested in getting more efficiency? Granted they want it at higher outputs but they want as much out of what they put in as they can get, No? Why would they want or not care if they got less? >Technically speaking, even a flat plane is an airfoil, as is a cylinder or >sphere. However the angle of attack window which does not produce >turbulence is much much smaller for a flat plane than for a foil shaped >paddle. A greenland paddle makes it much easier to maintain laminar flow >and therefore maximum lift during the entire stroke. I don't know how easy >this is with a flat blade, or whether it is practically possible. Does not this return to my original comment that there was no reason that a low aspect ratio blade (I am getting tired of typing that so will use LAR from now on) can't work the same way. In other words is this not an question not of whether the paddle is HAR or LAR blade but whether or not it has a functional airfoil shape? . >The greenland paddle is a wing, period. However some of the strokes used >have a different form than modern racing wing technique, and therefore the >lift and drag vectors may be different. This seems to be the case but is the any reason that anyone can think of why all LAR paddles are either flat plates or wings? Why not a nice symmetrical foil? Sort of like my balsa wood paddle. >There is enough lift generated to make the paddle leave the water >technically farther ahead of the point that it was planted. There have >been video studies that proven this, I have heard from racing friends. >Greenland paddles can be used in the modern style of wing paddles... I >call it the "racing" stroke. I use it to accelerate to catch waves. Are you sure of this (first portion not using Greenland paddle like a wing portion). As the paddle is withdrawn from the water toward the end of the stroke isn't its forward velocity now closer to the boat velocity and so it may be drawn past the insertion point rather than having lifted past the insertion point. Maybe it is a combination of lift and the boat velocity but I would question that it is the lift alone that causes the observed phenomenon. Interestingly enough Taylor shows that phenomenon happening with paddle wheel floats where the floats are flat plates. Even with my flat blade paddles I get the same result at certain speeds and paddle immersions. Trying to recall an earlier discussion on this phenomenon that probably took place on WaveLength. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Steve writes. > >Take your eyes to your TV and look at what they're doing. It certainly > >looks like the paddle is staying put--OK, maybe it moves a > >centimeter--and the boat is moving. But unless the bouy is also moving > >through the water, the paddle is pretty well fixed. > > In this Steve is quite right. It doesn't look like they move a lot nor do > they move a lot but they don't have too. Movement is movement and the > movement is essential to developing thrust. Another thought experiment: kneel on a skateboard next to a parking meter. Rotate forward as you would for a forward stroke. Grasp the post of the PM and return to a neutral position. Did perceive your board move? Did you perceive the parking meter move? I believe Nick would observe that the earth moved a little bit (Did it move for you?...well, never mind), but I think this amount of movement can safely be ignored. The amount of movement in paddling is greater than that, but still amounts to a very small distance. > The issue here is > not how much the paddle moves but does it move. Rich was quite clear about > this. Of course, if you really are interested in the number of angels who can dance on the blade of a Greenland paddle, have at it. I agree that this thread started generating more heat than light many posts ago. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:56 PM -0400 7/24/98, Steve Cramer wrote: >John Winters wrote: >> > >> Steve writes. >> >Take your eyes to your TV and look at what they're doing. It certainly >> >looks like the paddle is staying put--OK, maybe it moves a >> >centimeter--and the boat is moving. But unless the bouy is also moving >> >through the water, the paddle is pretty well fixed. >> >> In this Steve is quite right. It doesn't look like they move a lot nor do >> they move a lot but they don't have too. Movement is movement and the >> movement is essential to developing thrust. > >Another thought experiment: kneel on a skateboard next to a parking >meter. Rotate forward as you would for a forward stroke. Grasp the post >of the PM and return to a neutral position. Did perceive your board >move? Did you perceive the parking meter move? I believe Nick would >observe that the earth moved a little bit (Did it move for you?...well, >never mind), but I think this amount of movement can safely be ignored. Actually, the parking meter will bend. Something else will always give before you move the earth, in this case it is the parking meter and when paddling it is the water. But you are correct, for most purposes you can call the earth immovable. For paddling purposes you can consider the water to be concrete if it helps you understand your paddling technique. I expect you will learn more from thinking of water as water. Much of the fun of paddling is due to the fact that water does move when you push on it. I know I'm glad water is not like concrete. Think about it, right next to your paddle (which acts almost like it is in concrete), your kayak is sliding along almost as if were a skate on ice. These two distinctly different reactions are happening in the same medium not more than 6" from each other, and the frontal area of the paddle and the kayak are not all that different. The difference is in shape and the way the forces are applied to the water. Pretty cool. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, 67 Danforth Brook Rd, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > Can an infinite number of monkeys using an infinite number of pencils > paddle a boat at an infinite speed? :-) No, because the mass of the boat is not constant, but rather increases with the speed of the boat (even ignoring the mass of the additional monkeys and pencils). I would guess that such a large number of monkeys would achieve a speed somewhat below 186,282 miles per second. At that point, it should be noted, they would be planing, unless the boat in question is *very* long. Please refer all other questions regarding relativity to Dr. Iverbon (who knows even less about these things than I do). Regarding the eddies that form behind the paddle blade, my answer to your question is that the eddies are indeed formed by the pressure differential created by the movement of the paddle blade. Do I win a prize? (I want something useful--I already have more degrees than Dr. Iverbon.) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rich wrote; - >On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 07:51:00AM -0400, John Winters wrote: >> The video is proof of nothing. First the movement of the paddle in the >> water is not revealed since there is insufficient close up to show if there >> are eddies around the paddle. > >What difference would that make? The stipulation was that the paddle did >not move, NOT that it didn't create eddies. Rich, I asked earlier what caused the eddies. Maybe if you could answer that you could see the connection. >> Also, if I recall the video correctly, (I >> think I saw it at a canoe show some time back) there is no way of knowing >> what the flow is from the shots. Hence the flow could be around the paddle >> and not revealed by the relative motion of the boat to background objects. > >I'm not sure what you mean by this; do you mean the flow of the current? >(I'm pretty sure this bit of video was shot on a lake.) The video you are talking about may not be the same video I saw which is why I prefaced my comment with "if I recall the video correctly". My apologies to you if I did not state that clearly enough. If it is not then is the video sufficient to show that no eddies were caused by the paddle? I recognise that fluid dynamics is not your field. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote; > >Regarding the eddies that form behind the paddle blade, my answer to >your question is that the eddies are indeed formed by the pressure >differential created by the movement of the paddle blade. Do I win a >prize? (I want something useful--I already have more degrees than Dr. >Iverbon.) > Anyway you are now an honorary member of the Pagwa Sculling and Punting Club. Not many would say that is useful but it is different. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote; -> (SNIP) >Another thought experiment: kneel on a skateboard next to a parking >meter. Rotate forward as you would for a forward stroke. Grasp the post >of the PM and return to a neutral position. Did perceive your board >move? Did you perceive the parking meter move? I believe Nick would >observe that the earth moved a little bit (Did it move for you?...well, >never mind), but I think this amount of movement can safely be ignored. Sorry this is not valid. Pushing against a solid while you roll across a solid is not the same as pushing against a fluid while you float through a fluid. The proper experiment (if one insists on using skateboards and parking meters) is to launch your skateboard and paddle with a parking meter. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:50 PDT