We have had a series of discussions here regarding such things as: --Paddle float rescues. The consensus is that it is dicey to have the paddle stuck under a bungee at the end of the rescue leaving you to either tip over again or wrench a shoulder. And also the difficulty of doing it without shoving the paddle under bungee (that's how I learned to do it.) (We haven't even touched the problems of awkward people needing stirrups, etc.) --Rentry and roll. A neat idea but froth with problems in getting the skirt back on. Ideally you should do it while still immersed in the water but who among us has gills? --Bilge pumps. The difficulty of using one through a sprayskirt. The questions around electric ones etc. --Sponsons. Hmmm. I'll leave that one lie. :-) The list goes on. Here is my thought: Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? Sit-on-tops probably would work for most of the paddling most people on this listserver do. They come in all sorts of form...some quite sleek and speedy. If you tip one over, what's to empty since they all have scuppers? Spray skirt? What's that to a sit-on-top paddler! Most are fairly stable and don't need any sort of aid such as a paddle float to get back on. Sit-on-tops work real well for most of the months of the paddling season in terms of air temperatures. And even in colder weather, you can wear a dry suit with lots more layers underneath. Am I missing something here? I think that closed boats should get a long, hard look for their deficiencies and sit-on-tops be given more their due as boats that are "no problem, mon!" said with a West Indian lilt. ralph diaz -- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? > You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding > kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? Oh, man! Ralph, where would I put the 80 lbs of spuds and the hibachi my paddling buddies just HAD to have along on their latest week-long-trip? Seriously, what is the true cargo capacity (volume -- weight is probably not limiting) of an "expedition" SOT? The people I paddle with like to EAT! I don't know where I'd put the spare ribs! I'm stickin' with my Wind Dancer -- the cargo barge! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
--Just a few thoughts... First of all, they Don't work all year. Second, you'll stay wet. Even if you're wearing a drysuit, constant contact with cold water will still pull heat away from you. And how about such places as the Gulf of Maine or the Bay of Fundy where the water stays pretty cold year round. Third, you're sitting pretty high. Seems to me that wind would be a problem. Fourth, how about storage? I haven't seen many models offerring dry and/or copious space for your gear. >Sit-on-tops work real well for most of the months of the paddling season >in terms of air temperatures. And even in colder weather, you can wear >a dry suit with lots more layers underneath. >Am I missing something here? I think that closed boats should get a >long, hard look for their deficiencies and sit-on-tops be given more >their due as boats that are "no problem, mon!" said with a West Indian >lilt. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
<< My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops?>> Besides the reasons already stated, MOST sot's have very inefficient hulls. That is, you will generally have to work quite a bit harder to keep up with the enclosed boats. That coupled with the fact that you are sitting higher and few have rudders means that they can be exceedingly difficult to control in wind, waves and currents (the same conditions which are apparently wreaking havoc with your various rescue techniques). Also, the ease of climbing back onto a sot is somewhat over rated. Just like any other rescue technique it requires a bit of practice and upper body strength, and can become increasingly difficult in dicey waters and as you get more cold and tired (like after a day of paddling wet). Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
--Rentry and roll. A neat idea but froth with problems in getting the skirt back on. Ideally you should do it while still immersed in the water but who among us has gills? ------------ A question I've had for some time is how tight/loose should a spray skirt binding be? My guess is that the better your roll, the tighter you'd want the binding to be to ensure you don't fall out during a dump. The 'less good' your roll, if any, the looser the spray skirt should probably be? ------------ Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? ------------- My first thought was Sales & Marketing but I like Joe Pylka's answers too. I've always associated SOTs with warmer climes. I would also guess that without hip and knee support you (not the boat) would be less stable. ------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? > You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding > kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? There are lots of uses for lots of different types of boats. For me the sit-on-top variety was not acceptable. My primary reasons: 1. Having over half my body inside boat+skirt means half my body isn't exposed to the sun. So I can wear shorts, and thus be more comfortable. 2. Being hit in the chest with a big wave would knock me off of a sit- on-top but only be temporarily painful seated tightly in the traditional yak. 3. My traditional yak with no forward bulkhead will store and hold all kinds of really long, lumpy gear inside. I hate gear on deck, unless its actually doing something, like a rod in a rod holder. 4. I also *feel* much more in control of the boat, seated down low, thighs locked tightly against the hull. FWIW: I have no difficulty re-entering my boat after a wet exit, and I have no difficulty rolling the boat, making an accidental re-entry situation very unlikely. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; -----Original Message----- (SNIP) >Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? >You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding >kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? > (SNIP) > >Am I missing something here? I think that closed boats should get a >long, hard look for their deficiencies and sit-on-tops be given more >their due as boats that are "no problem, mon!" said with a West Indian >lilt. Ralph has hit the point, SOT's do provide more safety when one is paddling and expects or fears capsize. The argument frequently given that their designs are inferior has nothing to do with being SOT's. No law states that an SOT has to be poorly designed. A properly designed SOT can have as much storage as a traditional kayak and the seating position can be adequately low if the volume of the cockpit is kept low (nice snug fit that traditional paddlers try to get with foam etc in their boats). The Tsunami people have developed good quick exit straps for the hot shot paddlers. The SOT's have a bad reputation because of poor design by the earliest manufacturers who had more interest in appealing to the less knowledgeable paddlers. I suspect that new designs will come along that have good hull shapes and better engineered cockpits. The cold weather paddling does pose a problem but I believe that wet suit and dry suit technology has advanced to the point where the enclosed cockpit has become redundant. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
While the discussion of SOTs is current, consider an alternative sometimes used with first-time paddlers and children, and perhaps more widely applicable; standard sea kayaks with sea socks and without spray skirts. Plenty of pleasant weather paddling could be done with such an arrangement and indeed often is among more relaxed paddlers. Certainly its is not a viable combination for turbulent conditions and big seas but perhaps neither are SOTs comfortable in such conditions. The advantages of both carrying volume and knee and hip bracing would also be retained. Craft like the Feathercraft K1 combine all the elements; aircraft portability, high secondary stability, sea sock adaptability and carrying volume. Does a SOT dramatically outshine a conventional kayak with a properly fit sea sock? If so, how?. Rich Mitchell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hey John: I disagree that wet and drysuit technology has advanced to the point that an enclosed cockpit is redundant for cold weather paddling. I find that a closed kayak cockpit or a spray covered canoe offers nice wind and spash protection, so I don't lose heat as quickly as when I am not in the boat. Yes, at some point this advantage could be replaced by wearing a heck of a lot of insulation under the suit, but I have found that if I bulk up too much I cannot move (Charlie Brown dressed for a blizzard -- never got out of the house because he couldn't move), and my efforts at moving get me perspiring profusely. All in all, it is hard to find a good balance between heat retention, heat dissapation, and flexibility. For myself, having a closed cockpit is part of the equation. Cheers, Richard --snp-- > The cold weather paddling does pose a problem but I believe that wet suit > and dry suit technology has advanced to the point where the enclosed > cockpit has become redundant. > > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > Why in the world do people get themselves into boats that need all that? > You're probably guessing that this is leading to a sermon on folding > kayaks. It is not. My thought is--Why not use sit-on-tops? I paddle both a surf ski (a futura carerra) and sea kayaks (my main boat is a VCP PinTail), also I live in Massachusetts where sit on tops are fairly rare. The surf ski is just too wet of a ride for the cooler seasons. I don't like to be wet all the time. I like being able to keep my lower body enclosed in the boat. Even if I'm wearing a drysuit I prefer the closed boat. > Sit-on-tops probably would work for most of the paddling most people on > this listserver do. They come in all sorts of form...some quite sleek > and speedy. If you tip one over, what's to empty since they all have > scuppers? Spray skirt? What's that to a sit-on-top paddler! Most are > fairly stable and don't need any sort of aid such as a paddle float to > get back on. We've done timings for getting back on. I can flip over, right the boat get back on with paddle in hand and start another stroke in under 10 seconds. The sit on top doesn't need a paddle float because you can simply drop your legs into the water for stability. Paddling with your legs in the water as outriggers if necessary. My surf ski is narrow (17.25 inch beam) and I've never felt a need for a paddlefloat. My boat doesn't have scuppers but splashing your feet in the footwells will pretty much empty the footwells. Another poster expressed concern about freeboard and sitting up high. The stern of the surf ski is only about 2 inches above water, nearly flush at the rudder, and the seat is probably just barely more than 2 layers of layup above the water. My surf ski has no storage, but several sit-on-tops out there do. In particular the Heritage boats may have as much storage as a comparable length sea kayak. The Heritage boats also have, optional, thigh straps that allow for robust bracing and allow the boats to be rolled. I've got no affiliation with Heritage I just enjoyed playing with their boats at a demo day. Admittedly the futura carerra is a race boat so it isn't a "normal" representation of a sit on top. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
...thread change to PANTRY SELECTION by Dave Kruger... Add to the non-SOT list DutchOven, flour for roux, celery, a chicken (in case the fish don't bite or no one feels like trying a handline from boat or bank), a dozen limes and some salt !!, maybe a bottle of wine to clear out the mezcal taste, and let's see ....I know I'm leaving out some stuff...oh, yeah....probably kindling until the winter is over with .....I'm even thinking of going to a larger diameter hollow paddle shaft just to carry more smoked sausage !! Guess that would work with a SOT though. I better keep my old Sea Lion-ess. She and my VW bus are too well acquainted to separate. adieu .....Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'm sure there will be many contributors to the discussion on why not paddle SOT's. Can't carry my gear, always wet, yada, yada, yada. Humbug. I think the answer to why we don't all use SOT's is that the real reason we paddle is to look cool. And you just don't look as cool on a SOT. Larry Mills now returns to his plans regarding paddling up Niagara Falls. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:32 PM 2/24/99 -0000, Larry wrote: >Larry Mills now returns to his plans regarding paddling >up Niagara Falls. When paddling upstream against strong currents, it's particularly important to look for back eddies to assist you. May I suggest the Saint Lawrence Seaway/Panama Canal alternative as faster and safer? :-) Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
SOTs seem to be THE thing in southern CA. My husband, who is not too crazy about kayaking and hates trying to pack himself into a cockpit, got an SOT when we moved down here (for the record... from Alaska). He was cool and comfy during the (extremely!) hot summer months while I sweated miserably in the K-Light (without spray skirt and sea sock). Winter paddling (right! they call THIS winter....) he needs to wear neo pants and shoes because he does get wet and cold, and I am comfortable with sprayskirt if it's windy (but the sea sock is still too hot). IMHO, in this hot climate the SOT beats a sit-inside, easy! But, now that we're moving to Oregon, not sure how useful it will be. Wonder if I'll ever get the man out on the water up there.... ;-) -- Karen Hancock San Clemente, CA magpi_at_access1.net 949/487-2602 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A little bit off the original subject, but still related..... I was talking earlier this morning to a dog musher who has run the Iditarod (Anchorage to Nome) and the subject turned to emergencies - his comment was that you're always allowed one mistake but the consequences of making a second mistake, while trying to deal with the effects of the original mistake, can kill you. An interesting point of view from an unrelated sport, but quite applicable to sea-kayaking and all this talk about rescues. Whatever method you choose, make sure that it works well for you. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; > >I disagree that wet and drysuit technology has advanced to the point that >an enclosed cockpit is redundant for cold weather paddling. (SNIP of good reasons for enclosed cockpit) ) And yet we paddle our un - enclosed open canoes every spring on icy rivers and paddle the ocean in our open canoes while ice bergs dance slowly about us. The Inuit (sans wet suits etc) paddled their open umiaks in the far, far north among the bergs. If you think you need an enclosed cockpit you may need one. On the other hand, you may not. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, John Winters wrote: > And yet we paddle our un - enclosed open canoes every spring on icy rivers > and paddle the ocean in our open canoes while ice bergs dance slowly about > us. The Inuit (sans wet suits etc) paddled their open umiaks in the far, > far north among the bergs. > > If you think you need an enclosed cockpit you may need one. Canoes and Umiaks have much more freeboard than a SOT. I enjoy paddling a canoe amongst the ice chunks. I put away the SOT for the winter because it's such a wet ride. Sitting there with my butt frozen into the recess of my SOT just isn't appealling. Back on the pros of a enclosed boat - bug season. It sure is nice sealing those beasties out for the day. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Walker wrote; (SNIP) >1. Having over half my body inside boat+skirt means half my body >isn't exposed to the sun. So I can wear shorts, and thus be more >comfortable. One has to weigh such things against the inherent safety of an SOT. One could easily say that wearing long Supplex sun pants are just fine and hardly an inconvenience. >2. Being hit in the chest with a big wave would knock me off of a sit- >on-top but only be temporarily painful seated tightly in the >traditional yak. The comparison won't hold up if one compares the standard kayak with say, a Tsunami. Anyone who has paddled one knows how solidly the paddler feels in one in the hairiest conditions. (They have some videos that will shock you) One should not judge SOT's as a type by the toys that get sold in great numbers. >3. My traditional yak with no forward bulkhead will store and hold >all kinds of really long, lumpy gear inside. I hate gear on deck, >unless its actually doing something, like a rod in a rod holder. I know of no reason why an SOT can't have large hatches or hatches on the cockpit walls for long gear. Such a boat may not exist right now but that does not mean it will never exist or cannot exist. One should not judge SOT's as a type but rather judge manufacturers for their execution. >4. I also *feel* much more in control of the boat, seated down low, >thighs locked tightly against the hull. Since this problem has found its solution in the better outfitting systems one should not judge the type by its poorer examples anymore than one should judge all SINK's (Ralph, I love it. By the way, my son calls them Sea Condoms) by their poorer examples. FWIW: I have no difficulty re-entering my boat after a wet exit, and I have no difficulty rolling the boat, making an accidental re-entry situation very unlikely. Good for you. You should be proud of your accomplishment. You are representative of a minority of paddlers (no one really knows how many paddlers have your skills). In this litigious society, designers and builders live in fear of the majority who don't have your skills. We know that when some one like yourself screws up he or she will accept responsibility. The question is, "Will the survivors?" I design both types of boat but always feel more comfortable when an SOT gets sold even though I am incorporated and everything outside the business is in my wife's name. A terminally wet paddler represented by a sleazy lawyer scares me more than not wearing my life jacket. :-) Oh yes. How to pee in an SOT. Just do it in the bottle. Most people have enough sense not to paddle over and look in your boat to see what you are doing. OK, maybe not in Florida. Reminds me of the shy nudist who went behind a tree so no one would see his penis. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
[rww & John Winters chatting...] > >1. Having over half my body inside boat+skirt means half my body > >isn't exposed to the sun. So I can wear shorts, and thus be more > >comfortable. > > One has to weigh such things against the inherent safety of an SOT. One > could easily say that wearing long Supplex sun pants are just fine and > hardly an inconvenience. Thats certainly an accomodation for this shortcoming, and I often wear a full dive skin anyway. But it is a problem that does not exist in the SINK. The less skin surface area I have exposed to the ocean and sun, the better I feel. > >2. Being hit in the chest with a big wave would knock me off of a sit- > >on-top but only be temporarily painful seated tightly in the traditional > >yak. > > The comparison won't hold up if one compares the standard kayak with say, > a Tsunami. Anyone who has paddled one knows how solidly the paddler feels > in one in the hairiest conditions. (They have some videos that will shock > you) One should not judge SOT's as a type by the toys that get sold in > great numbers. Yes, there are special SOT's which can do neet things. Surf skis are another specialized SOT example. I'm not particularly interested in such comparisons, as I'm not likely to buy a Tsunami or a surf ski. To be honest, I need to see the specs for the Tsunami before I could say anything about its usefulness for the various things that I do from a kayak... I know the surf ski would do some of my tricks very well, but others it would suck big time. > >3. My traditional yak with no forward bulkhead will store and hold > >all kinds of really long, lumpy gear inside. I hate gear on deck, > >unless its actually doing something, like a rod in a rod holder. > > I know of no reason why an SOT can't have large hatches or hatches on the > cockpit walls for long gear. Such a boat may not exist right now but that > does not mean it will never exist or cannot exist. One should not judge > SOT's as a type but rather judge manufacturers for their execution. I need to be able to store a 60" x 5"x 2" object and be able to remove it from the boat while still sitting . I know of no SOT currently made which will handle such a task. The typical solution is to secure such a thing on deck; and most people are comfortable enough with that fix. I'm not. > >4. I also *feel* much more in control of the boat, seated down low, > >thighs locked tightly against the hull. > > Since this problem has found its solution in the better outfitting systems > one should not judge the type by its poorer examples anymore than one > should judge all SINK's (Ralph, I love it. By the way, my son calls them > Sea Condoms) by their poorer examples. This all seems like ways of taking the wrong tool and jury-rigging it in order to do the same tasks as the correct tool is able to do by original design. > In this litigious society, designers and > builders live in fear of the majority who don't have your skills. We know > that when some one like yourself screws up he or she will accept > responsibility. The question is, "Will the survivors?" If one carries adequate life insurance, the survivors will have little need to risk time and money looking for a deep pocket somewhere. Besides, I doubt if any kayak manufacturer has deep enough pockets to really tempt the personal injury lawyers. And based on our boating culture down here, its unlikely that you could find a jury willing to hold a kayak manufacturer responsible, even if there was something glaringly wrong with the boats... "What! You mean this idiot went out on saltwater without a pair of outboard engines?? Why are we wasting our time here!" > I design both types of boat but always feel more comfortable when an SOT > gets sold even though I am incorporated and everything outside the > business is in my wife's name. A terminally wet paddler represented by a > sleazy lawyer scares me more than not wearing my life jacket. :-) The only way people die in kayaks down here is from being seperated from their boat. This seems more likely to occur in a SOT. > Oh yes. How to pee in an SOT. Just do it in the bottle. Most people have How bout just pee over the side, we are talking OCEAN here; not some delicate river system. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk wrote; (SNIP) >Back on the pros of a enclosed boat - bug season. It sure is nice sealing >those beasties out for the day. Or sealing them in. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Kirk wrote; > (SNIP) > > >Back on the pros of a enclosed boat - bug season. It sure is nice sealing > >those beasties out for the day. I once found I had sealed in a mouse. I am not afraid of them but my dislike of them is now greatly increased. I can assure you there is no easy way to get one out once you are launched!! Maybe a foot operated bilge pump? Hal Wilton, NH Power your boat with carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Walker wrote; (SNIP) >Thats certainly an accomodation for this shortcoming, and I often >wear a full dive skin anyway. But it is a problem that does not >exist in the SINK. The less skin surface area I have exposed to >the ocean and sun, the better I feel. Many feel that way. Since one can cover up anyway it seems that how one does it reflects personal prefernce not any inherent advantage or disadvantage of a type. (SNIP) >Yes, there are special SOT's which can do neet things. Surf skis >are another specialized SOT example. I'm not particularly >interested in such comparisons, as I'm not likely to buy a Tsunami >or a surf ski. To be honest, I need to see the specs for the >Tsunami before I could say anything about its usefulness for the >various things that I do from a kayak... I know the surf ski would >do some of my tricks very well, but others it would suck big time. Failed to make myself clear. The point I tried to make had to do with how an SOT could be fitted to do hoild you in the boat. There is nothing inherent in teh SOT concept that prohibits such rigging. Not sure how one determines that a boat won't do something without having tried it. (SNIP) >I need to be able to store a 60" x 5"x 2" object and be able to >remove it from the boat while still sitting . I know of no SOT >currently made which will handle such a task. The typical solution >is to secure such a thing on deck; and most people are >comfortable enough with that fix. I'm not. Failed to make myself clear again. I tried to point out that an SOT with that kind of storage could be built not that one existed. >This all seems like ways of taking the wrong tool and jury-rigging it >in order to do the same tasks as the correct tool is able to do by >original design. Please define what the correct tool does and its characteristics and then we can discuss how an SOT can be designed to accomplish those task plus provdie added safety, ease of boarding etc. (SNIP) >If one carries adequate life insurance, the survivors will have little >need to risk time and money looking for a deep pocket somewhere. You must not be a lawyer. >Besides, I doubt if any kayak manufacturer has deep enough >pockets to really tempt the personal injury lawyers. Most carry extensive liability insurance. >And based on our boating culture down here, its unlikely that you >could find a jury willing to hold a kayak manufacturer responsible, >even if there was something glaringly wrong with the boats... >"What! You mean this idiot went out on saltwater without a pair of >outboard engines?? Why are we wasting our time here!" You may not be familiar with the case against an outfitter because the outfitter failed to post lifeguards along a whitewater river. They settled out of court at great expensed to the outfitters insurnace comapny and outfitter. "What, you didn't know that there were no lifeguards along the river?" Hey stick it to them. It's their fault not the poor stupid paddler. (SNIP) >The only way people die in kayaks down here is from being >seperated from their boat. This seems more likely to occur in a >SOT. Why? How bout just pee over the side, we are talking OCEAN here; not some delicate river system. AH yes, I notice you are from Texas. ;-) In Canada we aren't so well endowed. In fact, even our women can't manage it. Damn I wish I were a Texan.:-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >Thats certainly an accomodation for this shortcoming, and I often > >wear a full dive skin anyway. But it is a problem that does not > >exist in the SINK. The less skin surface area I have exposed to > >the ocean and sun, the better I feel. > > Many feel that way. Since one can cover up anyway it seems that how one > does it reflects personal prefernce not any inherent advantage or > disadvantage of a type. Certainly agreed; its all personal preference; my personal preference is to be covered and protected by the hull as opposed to relying on clothing. > >Yes, there are special SOT's which can do neet things. Surf skis > >are another specialized SOT example. I'm not particularly > >interested in such comparisons, as I'm not likely to buy a Tsunami > >or a surf ski. To be honest, I need to see the specs for the > >Tsunami before I could say anything about its usefulness for the > >various things that I do from a kayak... I know the surf ski would > >do some of my tricks very well, but others it would suck big time. > > Failed to make myself clear. The point I tried to make had to do with how > an SOT could be fitted to do hoild you in the boat. There is nothing > inherent in teh SOT concept that prohibits such rigging. Not sure how one > determines that a boat won't do something without having tried it. Right. "Could be fitted to..." That just seems wierd to me. SOT's seem designed for easy-on easy-off, high stability uses. They are used extensively around here for crossing between wadefishing spots. If you are going to do "could be fitted to" in order to give it similar characteristics to a SINK, then why not get the SINK to begin with. Not to say that there is anything wrong with getting the SOT; but rather if the persons preference is for SINK features, maybe they should get a SINK. If their preferece is for SOT features, maybe they should get a SOT. For what its worth, you could rig a SINK to behave like a SOT. Some solid foam here, a little cutting there, some ballast... walla SOT. Not sure what would be gained over just starting out with a SOT in the first place.... > >I need to be able to store a 60" x 5"x 2" object and be able to > >remove it from the boat while still sitting . I know of no SOT > >currently made which will handle such a task. The typical solution > >is to secure such a thing on deck; and most people are > >comfortable enough with that fix. I'm not. > > Failed to make myself clear again. I tried to point out that an SOT with > that kind of storage could be built not that one existed. My point was that there wouldn't be a market for such a feature, and so no manufacturer would waste their money trying to make one. > >This all seems like ways of taking the wrong tool and jury-rigging it in > >order to do the same tasks as the correct tool is able to do by original > >design. > > Please define what the correct tool does and its characteristics and then > we can discuss how an SOT can be designed to accomplish those task plus > provdie added safety, ease of boarding etc. The correct tool protects you from sun'n'sea, encloses all gear, holds you firmly attached to the boat, and lets you dangle upside down as comfortably as right side up. As to boarding, having done both, the SINK is essentially the same as the SOT. I don't usually get to stand next to the boat in the water, because the bottom is simply to soft. I often have the boat floating, and step into it from the launch or ramp. Seal launching is also fairly easy if somewhat tiring in the SINK. I suppose a SOT again, could be rigged to make seal launching possible... > You must not be a lawyer. nope, and don't play one on TV either. > >The only way people die in kayaks down here is from being > >seperated from their boat. This seems more likely to occur in a > >SOT. > > Why? Because most folks riding on SOT's aren't attached to the boat. Not that the boats couldn't be so rigged, but the fact that they are NOT so rigged being the operative word here. > > How bout just pee over the side, we are talking OCEAN here; not > > some delicate river system. > > AH yes, I notice you are from Texas. ;-) In Canada we aren't so well > endowed. In fact, even our women can't manage it. Damn I wish I were a > Texan.:-) Endowment my butt. Try arching your back, and aim carefully. Women have it pretty bad though in this particular department. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; (SNIP about Richard's opinions on BESOTTED SINKERS) I certainly appreciate Richard's opinions on this and particularly his comments on what paddlers want and what manufacturers are willing to waste their time on. All, no doubt, based upon market research, discussions with manufacturers and extensive testing of SOT's and SINKS. Those of us on the periphery of the industry can benefit from his insight. His method of relieving himself particularly interested me so I went to a pool session last night and tried it in a friend's Pintail. I can tell you I have even greater respect for Texans now. First I took off my spray skirt and arched my back. I didn't quite get into a position where I could use my bottle filler but the pain in my back and the cramp in my thigh did go away after a few minutes. On the second attempt my friend made some waves and I capsized. A real bummer as the spray skirt was off and I could not brace properly while I tried to stretch my bottle filler over the side while keeping it concealed from curious female paddlers wondering what kind of new roll I was trying and the lifeguard wondering what I was up to. Have you ever tried rolling from that position? I tried to zip the fly of my shorts but got my bottle filler caught in the zipper (difficult keeping your mind on the task at hand when you are hanging comfortably upside down in a swimming pool and running out of breath). I gave up and did a wet exit, corrected the bottle filler problem and then did a re-entry and roll. After pumping the boat out I analysed what happened and set a plan for the proper execution of the "over-the-side-bottle-fill". This time I rotated slightly as I arched my back. I got jammed at the forward cockpit edge but managed to get my bottle filler exposed in the vicinity of the cockpit rim. Fortunately the water was warm. Unfortunately my age and prostatis have reduced the pressure at the valve of my bottle filler and I could not get the flow over the side. My friend rather ungraciously insisted that I give his boat back after washing it and the life guard insisted that I leave at once before he called the police. I can't understand the problem. They have filters and chlorine for that kind of thing. All this increases my respect for the modest Texans who, when they aren't better endowed, are all contortionists and can brace, use their bottle fillers without getting any in the cockpit and debate the number of SINKS on the head of a pin at the same time. Texans Uber Alles or at least over the side. P.S. I sent a drawing of the NUK Expo 67 West Greenland kayak as converted to an SOT but I think it may have got bounced for size. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Since you professionally design kayaks, I believe the cost of your lawyer and the fine for exposing yourself can be written off on your taxes as a bona fide business expense. Larry Mills Department of Redundancy Department -----Original Message----- From: John Winters [SMTP:735769_at_ican.net] Sent: Friday, February 26, 1999 12:31 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] a thought on rescues Richard wrote; (SNIP about Richard's opinions on BESOTTED SINKERS) I certainly appreciate Richard's opinions on this and particularly his comments on what paddlers want and what manufacturers are willing to waste their time on. All, no doubt, based upon market research, discussions with manufacturers and extensive testing of SOT's and SINKS. Those of us on the periphery of the industry can benefit from his insight. His method of relieving himself particularly interested me so I went to a pool session last night and tried it in a friend's Pintail. I can tell you I have even greater respect for Texans now. First I took off my spray skirt and arched my back. I didn't quite get into a position where I could use my bottle filler but the pain in my back and the cramp in my thigh did go away after a few minutes. On the second attempt my friend made some waves and I capsized. A real bummer as the spray skirt was off and I could not brace properly while I tried to stretch my bottle filler over the side while keeping it concealed from curious female paddlers wondering what kind of new roll I was trying and the lifeguard wondering what I was up to. Have you ever tried rolling from that position? I tried to zip the fly of my shorts but got my bottle filler caught in the zipper (difficult keeping your mind on the task at hand when you are hanging comfortably upside down in a swimming pool and running out of breath). I gave up and did a wet exit, corrected the bottle filler problem and then did a re-entry and roll. After pumping the boat out I analysed what happened and set a plan for the proper execution of the "over-the-side-bottle-fill". This time I rotated slightly as I arched my back. I got jammed at the forward cockpit edge but managed to get my bottle filler exposed in the vicinity of the cockpit rim. Fortunately the water was warm. Unfortunately my age and prostatis have reduced the pressure at the valve of my bottle filler and I could not get the flow over the side. My friend rather ungraciously insisted that I give his boat back after washing it and the life guard insisted that I leave at once before he called the police. I can't understand the problem. They have filters and chlorine for that kind of thing. All this increases my respect for the modest Texans who, when they aren't better endowed, are all contortionists and can brace, use their bottle fillers without getting any in the cockpit and debate the number of SINKS on the head of a pin at the same time. Texans Uber Alles or at least over the side. P.S. I sent a drawing of the NUK Expo 67 West Greenland kayak as converted to an SOT but I think it may have got bounced for size. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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