I can see how an unfeathered paddle has a couple of disadvantages in the surf zone compared to a highly feathered paddle. But the key thing is that the paddler is comfortable using their own paddle whatever the feather angle. Last Saturday at Deception Pass, I traded an unfeathered AT Sea kayak paddle (borrowed from Rex R.) for an 80 degree feathered Epic. One eddy turn, and I was ready to swap back because I could barely paddle. My friend wasn't even comfortable doing an eddy turn. I thought this was funny considering that both the AT and the Epic are fantastic paddles. Back to surfing. I think Matt's point that lightweight paddles should not be used in the surf is a valid point. This more than anything will contribute to breakage. But given this, unfeathered paddles do have a problem in two areas: 1. When punching out through a dumping wave. I mean punching right through a big dumper as it collapses over your head -- not a friendly place to be. A feathered paddle can take a stroke right through the wave because the blade in the air will pass right through the wave during the stroke. An unfeathered paddle have the "air" blade reversed by the falling water, ruining the stroke which might otherwise pull the kayak through, and probably resulting in the paddle being thrown back into face or chest. 2. The double lever effect (for lack of a better name). When upside down in moving water, holding the paddle in the middle while the water acts on both blades at once is what I am talking about. In other words, double the force on the paddle shaft than in the feathered case. It is easy to see why the unfeathered paddle would be more likely to break. George Gronseth's fabled ender which Matt mentioned, where he fell forward on the paddle shaft is a shining example of this effect. A feathered paddle would have been much less likely to break as Matt suggests. Of course, one distinct advantage of the unfeathered paddle mentioned to me by George, is that once the swim does occur, and assuming an unbroken shaft, the unfeathered paddle is a tremendous body surfing aid, whereas the feathered paddle is quite a hindrance. The unfeathered paddle can be used to support the body weight while skimming across the green water in front of wave. I haven't tried this, but it does sound like fun. Still, I think it is best to choose the feather angle according to the style of sea kayaking that one prefers, and not according to the surfing. Unfeathered paddles are easier on the wrists and more neutral in the wind, whereas feathered paddles have industry momentum and have an advantage paddling into the wind and a disadvantage paddling downwind on across the wind. Sorry for all the run-on sentences today. I must have had too much coffee this morning. :) Kevin ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences ___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| ________________________/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 2:13 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf <BIG SNIP> >Of course, one distinct advantage of the unfeathered paddle mentioned to >me by George, is that once the swim does occur, and assuming an unbroken >shaft, the unfeathered paddle is a tremendous body surfing aid, whereas >the feathered paddle is quite a hindrance. The unfeathered paddle can be >used to support the body weight while skimming across the green water in >front of wave. I haven't tried this, but it does sound like fun. Could you (or George) elaborate on this technique? >Still, I think it is best to choose the feather angle according to the >style of sea kayaking that one prefers, and not according to the surfing. >Unfeathered paddles are easier on the wrists and more neutral in the wind, >whereas feathered paddles have industry momentum and have an advantage >paddling into the wind and a disadvantage paddling downwind on across the >wind. With low hand control (pushing with the paddle shaft, wrist, elbow in a straight line)feathered paddles are no harder on the wrists than unfeathered. What do you mean by more neutral in the wind? Paddling across a very strong wind a feathered paddler needs to be careful not to raise the blade too high or the wind can catch under it. This is easy to compensate for and once the danger was recognized I never had to let go of the upper blade (or twist it to spill the wind) again even in exteme side winds. I will speculate that if one had to do a quick brace as a side wind gust pushed you of balance, reactions rather than reason would take over and you might well find yourself doing a sudden high brace. Now the unfeathered blade would be inadvertently exposed to the high wind. This would tend to counteract the brace, pushing you further over to the side you from which you are already trying to recover. Letting go of the paddle with one hand (or twisting the shaft to spill the wind) won't be able to help you here. Blade speed is roughly 2.5 times boat speed. A paddler paddling 4 knots into a 10 knot wind would have (4 x 2.5) ten knots of additional paddle blade speed to add to the wind speed (and doubling the relative wind creates 4 times the resistance). Turning around and ignoring that you would be moving faster downwind for the same effort (which is working even more in my arguments favor) a blade moving at 10 knots downwind in a ten knot following wind would gain no benefit from the wind. At best the penalty for unfeathered into the wind is far greater than any benefit garnered going downwind. >Sorry for all the run-on sentences today. I must have had too much coffee >this morning. :) Coffee is an addictive drug, I'd try to quit. ;-) Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com > >Kevin > > ___________________ > / Kevin Whilden \ > |Dept. of Geosciences ___ > |University of Washington \ > |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| > ________________________/ > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I originally replied to the post by Tom, I think it was, that he was wrong when he stated that "I think an unfeathered paddle has an advantage in the surf." He is wrong and so is anybody else who claims that a non-featherd paddle is advantageous in the surf. That is not to say that a traditional paddle will not work. I think the differences are subtle and are probably offset by one's familiarity with one particular paddle type. I use a feathered paddle for surfing whitewater kayaks, surf kayaks and wave skis. I use a traditional sport paddle for touring. I don't know why exactly, it just turned out that way. When I am taking my sea kayak through the surf I will usually not bother to take the time to feather my paddle. It's just not all that important. If you like feathered paddles, then use one! If you like Inuit style paddles, then use one of those! If you prefer traditional sport paddles -- hey, go for it. However, speaking from a strict mechanical point of view I still believe that feathered paddles are better in the surf. This whole debate of feathered verses traditional is really pretty silly. I use what I use because that's what I've got, and I like it. Unless we are into serious competitive paddling and are intent on squeezing an extra tenth of a second off our time then what does it matter. I doubt any of us choose a boat or paddle based strictly on efficiency. We do this because it's fun. End of story. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf > <Snip> >>Matt: With low hand control (pushing with the paddle shaft, wrist, elbow in a >> straight line)feathered paddles are no harder on the wrists than >> unfeathered. > >Kevin: I would disagree with this on principal, since a highly feathered paddle >will always require a constant bending of the control wrist for every >stroke. I never have to bend my wrist to paddle unfeathered. I use a well balanced paddle that doesn't have a heavy side which constantly wants to twist in ones hand due to gravity. While raising my forearms (with my wrists straight) I loosen my grip slightly with both hands and the rotating moment (from pivoting from the elbow --caused by raising the upper hand) spins the paddle in my hand enough to never bend my wrists. Actually when I demonstrate this I can often make the paddle pivot more than 360 degrees and then catch it in the right position to take the next stroke. This "low hand control" also can help an unfeathered paddler who releases the grip only on the upper hand (so they don't have to raise their elbow to remove the 45 degree rotation induced by pivoting the hand up from the elbow--which is much less work than raising the elbow). George came up with this to counter my argument that unfeathered paddlers were working a lot harder because of raising their elbows (unless using a low Eskimo style stroke). My observation was that most feathered paddlers throw straight punches but unfeathered paddlers were throwing left and right hooks (unfortunately most still do but I think George is on to something here. We agreed LOW HAND CONTROL works best. Feathered paddlers should quit using that dainty little push with the palm of their hand forward and a bent wrist on their "control" side. You will have a much more powerful punch to your stroke if the bones and the paddle shaft are all lined up in the direction of the punch. I came to paddling with bad wrists from years of bone jarring pole plants in icy moguls. I learned the usual "control hand" nonsense as a whitewater paddler but when I sea kayaked 20+ miles a day my wrists became very painful. It came down to aborting a two week trip or changing something. After two hours of paddling by carefully pushing with a straight wrist and loose grip my painful wrists were on the mend and I had settled in to the technique I have used ever after. I haven't had a wrist problem due to paddling in the 18 years since then and on one occasion paddled over 70 miles in one 24 hour period with no wrist problems at all. For those feathered paddlers who can't easily break the "bent wrist syndrome", you can force yourself to push with a straight wrist by wearing a wrist brace on your former "control hand". I don't expect many who have habituated to unfeathered will try this. >By highly feathered, I mean 60 degrees or more. I just practiced >with an old 80 degree feather paddle that I own. I could not keep my >control hand wrist from bending backward (in the up-down plane)and out of >a straight line from my forearm when paddling on the opposite side. >Perhaps there is something that I am missing, and you should elaborate. It >certainly is possible to keep the control wrist and forearm straight in >the side to side plane by relaxing the grip, and this is of course >recommended with all paddles feathered or not. However, there are some >times when relaxing is not an option when things get really hairy. > >Less bending of the control wrist in the up-down plane is certainly an >advantage of an unfeathered paddle, but for the most part the difference >is trivial. This is really splitting hairs, just as with the likelyhood of >a paddle breaking in surf. The difference on the wrists however is finite, >but usually other factors dominate. Still, for tendonitis prone people or >those who can't relax their wrists, an unfeathered and even bent-shaft >paddle is the way to go. I had acquired tendonitis from that old 80 deg. >paddle after I applied protective rubber strip to the blade edge. This >increased the swing weight was enough to push my wrist a little too far. A >45 degree bent-shaft AT paddle cured my tendonitis almost immediately. 45 and 60 degree feathers are just about perfect on a calm day but they have this awful tendency to lift and dive in a strong headwind and I haven't found any way to easily compensate for this effect. I won't feather less than about 75 degrees, where I find this problem has reduced to insignificance. > >> >> What do you mean by more neutral in the wind? >> > >I mean that is easier to unconsciously predict how the paddle will react >to changing wind directions. Feathered paddles have an inherent 0 >that can make for different paddle responses to cross winds from opposite >sides. A asymmetric or even spoon shaped blade could exacerbate this >effect. At least with an unfeathered paddle, the response to wind from all >angles is bilaterally symmetric along the long axis of the boat. Again, >this is splitting hairs, but the difference is finite in my mind. HUH, could you translate that for my eighth grade mind? >I like your idea to calculate the wind drag of the feathered vs. >unfeathered paddle. Hopefully somone with more time will take it on. I >personally favor the Greenland style of paddling into the wind... just >slide the paddle over so that there is much less blade and lever arm going >against the wind. Also, I am amused by imagining your debates on this >topic with George, perhaps as only someone who knows you both can do. >Incidently, an unfeathered paddler around here with reflective tape on >his/her drysuit is a dead giveaway for a former George Gronseth student. >:) > >Cheers, >Kevin > >> Paddling across a very strong wind a feathered paddler needs to be careful >> not to raise the blade too high or the wind can catch under it. This is easy >> to compensate for and once the danger was recognized I never had to let go >> of the upper blade (or twist it to spill the wind) again even in exteme side >> winds. I will speculate that if one had to do a quick brace as a side wind >> gust pushed you of balance, reactions rather than reason would take over and >> you might well find yourself doing a sudden high brace. Now the unfeathered >> blade would be inadvertently exposed to the high wind. This would tend to >> counteract the brace, pushing you further over to the side you from which >> you are already trying to recover. Letting go of the paddle with one hand >> (or twisting the shaft to spill the wind) won't be able to help you here. >> Blade speed is roughly 2.5 times boat speed. A paddler paddling 4 knots into >> a 10 knot wind would have (4 x 2.5) ten knots of additional paddle blade >> speed to add to the wind speed (and doubling the relative wind creates 4 >> times the resistance). Turning around and ignoring that you would be moving >> faster downwind for the same effort (which is working even more in my >> arguments favor) a blade moving at 10 knots downwind in a ten knot following >> wind would gain no benefit from the wind. At best the penalty for >> unfeathered into the wind is far greater than any benefit garnered going >> downwind. >> >> >Sorry for all the run-on sentences today. I must have had too much coffee >> >this morning. :) >> >> Coffee is an addictive drug, I'd try to quit. ;-) > >I have, many times. But school always seems to resurrect the habit. > >> Matt Broze >> www.marinerkayaks.com >> >> > >> >Kevin >> > >> > ___________________ >> > / Kevin Whilden \ >> > |Dept. of Geosciences ___ >> > |University of Washington \ >> > |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| >> > ________________________/ >> > >> >*************************************************************************** >> >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >> >*************************************************************************** >> >> *************************************************************************** >> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >> *************************************************************************** >> > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote; -(SNIP) >Paddling across a very strong wind a feathered paddler needs to be careful >not to raise the blade too high or the wind can catch under it. This is easy >to compensate for and once the danger was recognized I never had to let go >of the upper blade (or twist it to spill the wind) again even in exteme side >winds. I will speculate that if one had to do a quick brace as a side wind >gust pushed you of balance, reactions rather than reason would take over and >you might well find yourself doing a sudden high brace. Now the unfeathered >blade would be inadvertently exposed to the high wind. This would tend to >counteract the brace, pushing you further over to the side you from which >you are already trying to recover. Possible I suppose but I never had that experience. I have had problems with twisted blades in beam winds. Perhaps one just learns to live with the problem which ever one you have. >Letting go of the paddle with one hand >(or twisting the shaft to spill the wind) won't be able to help you here. >Blade speed is roughly 2.5 times boat speed. A paddler paddling 4 knots into >a 10 knot wind would have (4 x 2.5) ten knots of additional paddle blade >speed to add to the wind speed (and doubling the relative wind creates 4 >times the resistance). I think this may have an element of exageration. Parallel flow (to the water and hence normal to the blade) rarely occurs. Surface turbulence and the altered flow around the paddler can cause the flow around the blade to approach being parallel to the blade. Obviously this varies with the altitude of the blade etc. but in any case one cannot simply assume that the flow strikes the blade at anything near normnal to the surface. Such and approximation needs more study before applying it without reservations. Of course, one must also factor in the height of the stroke. The traditional paddle users generally use lower strikes where the wind has much less effect anyway. Sailors will have some familiarity with the altered air flow around a body (safe leeward effect) etc. >Turning around and ignoring that you would be moving >faster downwind for the same effort (which is working even more in my >arguments favor) a blade moving at 10 knots downwind in a ten knot following >wind would gain no benefit from the wind. At best the penalty for >unfeathered into the wind is far greater than any benefit garnered going >downwind. The pressure against the blade varies with relative velocities. Since the blade doesn't always travel parallel with the air flow (the blade travels in a roughly elliptical path or sometimes egg shaped path depending upon stroke mechanics) and much of the time its relative velocity is much lower than the approximation Matt used. Having developed rather painful wrist problems from using feathered blades and having "cured" them using an unfeathered blade I suspect that the benefits of one over the other may have more to do with treating the paddle and paddler in a holistic manner rather than as isolated benefits and drawbacks. The feathered paddle (in my case) has much less efficiency than the unfeathered paddle. No doubt some one will say, "You just didn't use the right stroke mechanics" and no doubt that would have an element of truth but maybe it works both ways. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 5:30 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf >>Matt wrote;>> > >-(SNIP) > > >>Paddling across a very strong wind a feathered paddler needs to be careful >>not to raise the blade too high or the wind can catch under it. This is >easy >>to compensate for and once the danger was recognized I never had to let go >>of the upper blade (or twist it to spill the wind) again even in exteme >side >>winds. I will speculate that if one had to do a quick brace as a side wind >>gust pushed you of balance, reactions rather than reason would take over >and >>you might well find yourself doing a sudden high brace. Now the >unfeathered >>blade would be inadvertently exposed to the high wind. This would tend to >>counteract the brace, pushing you further over to the side you from which >>you are already trying to recover. > >John Winters answered:> >Possible I suppose but I never had that experience. I have had problems >with twisted blades in beam winds. Perhaps one just learns to live with the >problem which ever one you have. > >>Letting go of the paddle with one hand >>(or twisting the shaft to spill the wind) won't be able to help you here. >>Blade speed is roughly 2.5 times boat speed. A paddler paddling 4 knots >into >>a 10 knot wind would have (4 x 2.5) ten knots of additional paddle blade >>speed to add to the wind speed (and doubling the relative wind creates 4 >>times the resistance). > >I think this may have an element of exageration. Parallel flow (to the >water and hence normal to the blade) rarely occurs. Surface turbulence and >the altered flow around the paddler can cause the flow around the blade to >approach being parallel to the blade. Obviously this varies with the >altitude of the blade etc. but in any case one cannot simply assume that >the flow strikes the blade at anything near normnal to the surface. Such >and approximation needs more study before applying it without reservations. True, but I doubt way out at the paddle blade (at least when it is at the angle most effected by the wind) ones body has much effect. Thinking about this possibility a little more: it would seam that you are helping my argument here. Since the paddle is most effected when it is perpendicular to the wind and since one paddles with the paddle out in front of the body, if the flow is altered by the body way out to the paddle blades it is more likely to be deflected at the paddle blade when the wind is from behind the body and the paddle is therefore further downwind. Since an unfeathered paddle is also deflecting the wind it is possible (especially near the end of a stroke) that the upper blade (angled forward like a scoop) is deflecting some wind into the paddlers wind catching body to some extent and this might further slow the paddler down. >Of course, one must also factor in the height of the stroke. The >traditional paddle users generally use lower strikes where the wind has >much less effect anyway. The feathered paddler also uses a lower stroke when desireable such as in strong side winds. Of course, there is some loss of efficiency with a lower stroke because the blade is sweeping in an arc and is futher from the centerline of the kayak and spends less time at the most effective angle, but sometimes the benefits are worth it. > >Sailors will have some familiarity with the altered air flow around a body >(safe leeward effect) etc. > >>Turning around and ignoring that you would be moving >>faster downwind for the same effort (which is working even more in my >>arguments favor) a blade moving at 10 knots downwind in a ten knot >following >>wind would gain no benefit from the wind. At best the penalty for >>unfeathered into the wind is far greater than any benefit garnered going >>downwind. > >The pressure against the blade varies with relative velocities. Since the >blade doesn't always travel parallel with the air flow (the blade travels >in a roughly elliptical path or sometimes egg shaped path depending upon >stroke mechanics) and much of the time its relative velocity is much lower >than the approximation Matt used. > True again, but since the blade angle is also smaller at that time so is the effect of the wind on it then. I expect whoever we tempt into figuring out the added drag into a headwind due to using an unfeathered paddle will take the time the blade spends at various angles to the wind into account. > >Having developed rather painful wrist problems from using feathered blades >and having "cured" them using an unfeathered blade I suspect that the >benefits of one over the other may have more to do with treating the paddle >and paddler in a holistic manner rather than as isolated benefits and >drawbacks. The way feathered paddling is usually taught is a perscription for wrist problems and while paddling unfeathered is one cure pushing with a straight wrist and a somewhat open hand also works and doesn't have the disadvantages of unfeathered paddling (and those due to switching feathers on bracing skills) to contend with. > >The feathered paddle (in my case) has much less efficiency than the >unfeathered paddle. No doubt some one will say, "You just didn't use the >right stroke mechanics" and no doubt that would have an element of truth >but maybe it works both ways. How did you judge which was most efficient for you? Were you bending your "control hand" wrist back on the feathered push? Do you think you can convince top racers that if they switch to unfeathered they will be more efficient? I can't believe that Olympic teams haven't looked into this possibility, or would it just seem too far fetched for them to consider at all? Maybe they are missing the boat here. Matt Broze > > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote; > > >True, but I doubt way out at the paddle blade (at least when it is at the >angle most effected by the wind) ones body has much effect. According to my information effect extends up to 2.5 times the chord width of the object in the flow. In this case probably 5 feet or so for a human body. Mind it diminishes with distance. (SNIP) >Since the paddle is most effected when it is perpendicular to >the wind Not necessarily so unless you mean that the drag reaches its maximum. The effect of the adjacent body increases with proximity as well as orientation to the flow. >and since one paddles with the paddle out in front of the body, if >the flow is altered by the body way out to the paddle blades it is more >likely to be deflected at the paddle blade when the wind is from behind the >body and the paddle is therefore further downwind. Since an unfeathered >paddle is also deflecting the wind it is possible (especially near the end >of a stroke) that the upper blade (angled forward like a scoop) is >deflecting some wind into the paddlers wind catching body to some extent and >this might further slow the paddler down. Interfering bodies do not necessarily have additive drag but influence each other. This provides the explanantion for why solo paddlers have so much less efficiency than tandem paddlers when paddling against the wind. The aft paddlers creates less drag because he lies in the forward paddler's turbulent wake. The same applies to paddles and paddler. Thus the drag of the paddle can reduce the drag on the paddler producing less net drag than if the two bodies get treated individually. In the case of the untwisted blade, the total drag on the system could be quite similar to that of the twisted blade. If anyone out there has a copy of Horner's Fluid Dynamics they can check this out as I recall there being some discussion of the various research papers on this topic. My own copy is out on loan so I will have to wait a week or two to check it out myself. >True again, but since the blade angle is also smaller at that time so is the >effect of the wind on it then. I expect whoever we tempt into figuring out >the added drag into a headwind due to using an unfeathered paddle will take >the time the blade spends at various angles to the wind into account. I doubt if we will tempt anyone into this. :-) An interesting simple test might involve nothing more exotic that some light tell tales atatched to paddle and paddler to provide visualization of the flow. This won't provide any quantitative information but could provide some interesting insight. Maybe I will get time to try it this weekend. Unfortunately I am involved with some other paddle research that has developed some snags and free time evaporates during periods of confusion and perplexity. >The way feathered paddling is usually taught is a perscription for wrist >problems and while paddling unfeathered is one cure pushing with a straight >wrist and a somewhat open hand also works and doesn't have the disadvantages >of unfeathered paddling (and those due to switching feathers on bracing >skills) to contend with. I developed my wrist problems from an number of other sports and the twisted paddles aggravated it. Not being an expert in biomechanics and sports medicine I had to seek out a solution that worked rather than one that fitted my theories. As long time readers of Paddlewise and WaveLength know, I have supported the "twisted paddle is best" from a theoretical basis for years. Unfortunately theory and real life collided and I chose to adopt the "at hand" solution. Occasionally I go back to my wind paddle but not for long. Just not man enough I guess. >How did you judge which was most efficient for you? Were you bending your >"control hand" wrist back on the feathered push? Do you think you can >convince top racers that if they switch to unfeathered they will be more >efficient? I can't believe that Olympic teams haven't looked into this >possibility, or would it just seem too far fetched for them to consider at >all? Maybe they are missing the boat here. The efficiency comes from not being able to paddle due to the pain of using a twisted paddle. Having been taught by a past world champion K-1 paddler I suspect that I got pretty good instruction. His verdict was that I was better off with an untwisted paddle. But then, he may not have seen any profit in spending time with me since at 45 years I had no Olympic potential. I may not have made myself perfectly clear earlier. My arguement has nothing to do with the relative efficiencies of the two styles but rather the relative efficiencies of the two style when applied to individuals. The dogmatism of using one over the other seems ill advised when applied to all paddlers. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I believe that it was Henry Kissinger who said that "University politics are so contentious because the stakes are so small." I think that this applies to a lot of debates in sea kayaking as well, the current discussion of feathered versus unfeathered paddles being a case in point. I have used both approaches, and they both work well, the differences being very small in head winds, side winds, surf, etc. They way in which either is used is more important than choice of feather angle. (I also think that the choice of shaft length is much more important than feather angle.) Please don't misunderstand me, I find this discussion very interesting, and I hope that it continues as some of the recent proposals for experimentation are intriguing. But I suspect that it will take a very carefully designed and well controlled experiment to reveal a consistent difference in performance. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > > I believe that it was Henry Kissinger who said that "University politics > are so contentious because the stakes are so small." I think that this > applies to a lot of debates in sea kayaking as well, the current > discussion of feathered versus unfeathered paddles being a case in > point. This feathered vs. unfeathered issue has taken on the trappings of a religious debate. When confronted with religion, go to a religious source, I always say. So I consulted my dusty 40 year old copy of St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica from my Fordham College days. Aquinas approached a number of far-ranging issues positing a position, the objections to it and replies and ending with some conclusion. The list of subjects that were addressed are almost endless. This may sound like I made it up, but when leafing through his thick tome, I came across the specific question of whether paddling unfeathered is against natural law...honest! St. Thomas had great foresight to deal with this small turf issue while pondering more weighty agenda items such as how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. His conclusion after paragraphs and paragraphs of posits and rebuttals is that indeed paddling unfeathered _is_ against natural law! (BTW, so is driving on the left side of the road.) I hope that Matt Broze will add this to his steadfast points against going unfeathered into surf. And I hope that John Winters and his professor associate, Dr. Inverbon, accept the unnaturalness of their ways. Hell, who want to buck with a saint and scholar. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf >Matt wrote; >>True, but I doubt way out at the paddle blade (at least when it is at the >>angle most effected by the wind) ones body has much effect. > John answered: >According to my information effect extends up to 2.5 times the chord width >of the object in the flow. In this case probably 5 feet or so for a human >body. Mind it diminishes with distance. My (recent) research into aerodynamic texts indicates that some small effect may happen even further out than that, but even if the wind is deflected until it is hitting the paddle at an angle of up to 25 degrees to perpendicular the drag will be almost the same as if it were perpendicular so it will hardly matter way out at he paddle blade (where the wind is only deflected a few degrees or less by the paddler). This diversion of flow around the paddler (that causes the "safe lee" and "hopeless" positions in sailboat racing) if it occurs to any significant degree would only mean that the paddlers unfeathered blade would be perpendicular to the flow a little later in the stroke. >(SNIP) >>Since the paddle is most effected when it is perpendicular to >>the wind > >Not necessarily so unless you mean that the drag reaches its maximum. The >effect of the adjacent body increases with proximity as well as orientation >to the flow. Maximum drag is what I meant by most effected. Not much changes, drag wise, if the flow is withing 25 degrees to perpendicular, so the unfeathered paddle would have to be very close to the body to get much benefit from this effect. > >>and since one paddles with the paddle out in front of the body, if >>the flow is altered by the body way out to the paddle blades it is more >>likely to be deflected at the paddle blade when the wind is from behind >the >>body and the paddle is therefore further downwind. Since an unfeathered >>paddle is also deflecting the wind it is possible (especially near the end >>of a stroke) that the upper blade (angled forward like a scoop) is >>deflecting some wind into the paddlers wind catching body to some extent >and >>this might further slow the paddler down. > >Interfering bodies do not necessarily have additive drag but influence each >other. This provides the explanantion for why solo paddlers have so much >less efficiency than tandem paddlers when paddling against the wind. This may be true in special cases, but my personal experience racing has been that when we turn into the wind is when I (in my single) can finally catch the double that had been previously out of reach. (Then I use this effect--hiding from the wind--behind them and their wake to "draft" them and get a rest before passing). Of course, any angle much off of directly into the wind would be a disadvantage to the bigger frontal area of a double with twice the number of paddlers sticking up into the airflow. That could be the reason I caught up or maybe they were all just using unfeathered paddles into the wind and I wasn't. >The >aft paddlers creates less drag because he lies in the forward paddler's >turbulent wake. The same applies to paddles and paddler. Thus the drag of >the paddle can reduce the drag on the paddler producing less net drag than >if the two bodies get treated individually. In the case of the untwisted >blade, the total drag on the system could be quite similar to that of the >twisted blade. If anyone out there has a copy of Horner's Fluid Dynamics >they can check this out as I recall there being some discussion of the >various research papers on this topic. My own copy is out on loan so I will >have to wait a week or two to check it out myself. > If you held the paddle blade directly in front of yourself that would be true but it would be hard to paddle much that way (but a near vertical stroke might provide a small benefit here). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Ralph Diaz wrote: "This feathered vs. unfeathered issue has taken on the trappings of a religious debate.<huge snip>" ----------- I've been in direct communication with *God* on this subject. HE said that using unfeathered paddles was the one true commandment. Derek Hutchingson wrote a few other things in stone (including love thy neigbours wife, do unto others as you would have their lawyers do to you, do not steal or I will fly over to your country and bust your rip-off mold in half, and there is but one God, Hutchy), but the feathered advice I have followed :) As SEVEN is the number of heavenly perfection, I paddle with 70 dergees, and yes, paddling for me is divine. One of my "heathen" friends paddles unfeathered in some very rough seas, high winds, and big surf. His paddle is short. He experimented (makes his own paddles) with different lengths, starting at 230cm, and eventually found 215cm works best. I can't keep up with the little sinner. BTW, I would never paddle in rough water with a standard laminated wooden paddle again after breaking one off Trial Island in a gale last year. My buddy above constructs his paddle shafts from laminated wood, but uses very thin laminations of wood with a lamination of cloth tape saturated with epoxy between each wooden lamination (curved ply blades). It is very strong, light, warm to paddle, and cheap to build. The only problem with it is he doesn't feather, but then he must have a different bible translation. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote that this feathered Vs unfeathered paddle business takes on the odor of religion. I disagree. In this particular case I think he discussion has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. By raising objections to each other's points we close in on the crux of a complex subject and the end product (if we obtain one) may enlighten someone. On the other hand, if I can find my little wax feathered paddle and some pins I can put this to rest with out much more discussion. :-) Matt wrote; (SNIP) >This diversion of flow >around the paddler (that causes the "safe lee" and "hopeless" positions in >sailboat racing) if it occurs to any significant degree would only mean that >the paddlers unfeathered blade would be perpendicular to the flow a little >later in the stroke. Perhaps but only depending upon stroke mechanics and then the force would not act parallel to the line of travel although it might exert a force against the paddler's arms that might increase his effort. Not sure about that though. The problem that arises has to do with the turbulent flow around the boat and paddler. I know of no research on this (I take that back. I think New Zealanders some years back worked on sprint boats that resulted in fairings around the cockpit. Ruled illegal right away though). I think one has to treat this paddle thing as a system rather than isolated parts. That makes it complicated and may defy resolution. >Maximum drag is what I meant by most effected. Not much changes, drag wise, >if the flow is withing 25 degrees to perpendicular, so the unfeathered >paddle would have to be very close to the body to get much benefit from this >effect. I suppose "very close" becomes an issue. For example, I my boat in the water this afternoon and found the following; During the power phase the distance from the paddle to my body never exceeded 1'8". Well within the range where interference effects occur. From exit to power phase the paddle traveled across the free stream flow and one might even start to suspect some positive lift occuring. (HMMM?) As I played about the thought crossed my mind that the paddle might even serve to reduce net drag. (HMMMM again) >This may be true in special cases, but my personal experience racing has >been that when we turn into the wind is when I (in my single) can finally >catch the double that had been previously out of reach. (Then I use this >effect--hiding from the wind--behind them and their wake to "draft" them and >get a rest before passing). Of course, any angle much off of directly into >the wind would be a disadvantage to the bigger frontal area of a double with >twice the number of paddlers sticking up into the airflow. That could be the >reason I caught up or maybe they were all just using unfeathered paddles >into the wind and I wasn't. This really surprises me (not the drafting part but being able to catch doubles directly up wind) . Perhaps these doubles were pretty poor boats or paddlers or, as you say, you did not paddle directly into the wind but at an angle. I have never seen any top level single sprint racers who could beat top level tandem sprints although once one gets down in the standings four or five places the double paddlers may have slower times than the top singles. I suspect this comparison has more validity than mixed racing particularly where the tandems may have poor characteristics. (SNIPS all over) > >If you held the paddle blade directly in front of yourself that would be >true but it would be hard to paddle much that way (but a near vertical >stroke might provide a small benefit here). Maybe this needs clarification. This is, in fact what I do when paddling strongly. Perhaps before discussing this further we need to define the stroke under discussion. It sounds like Matt is discussing a stroke that I would consider inappropriate for use with an untwisted paddle i.e. long shaft, straight fore and aft stroke, and paddle held at a large angle to the water. The old racing paddlers used this kind of stroke. The more modern stroke sweeps across the body and gets held more vertially. I have found the "wing" style of stroke superior when one produces high output regardless of the paddle type (so far). I have some test paddles underway that i hope will help clarify this. If we could just get some bored university student to do some wind tunnel test for us we would enter fat city. Failing that I guess we will have to muddle along with less sophisticated stuff. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> In this particular case I think he discussion > has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. What do we see in the laboratory of competition? I know just about nothing about racing.... Do any competition kayakers, flatwater or ocean, use unfeathered paddles? What feather angles are most popular? Is there any aspect of touring which would make medium-distance racers' choice not apply for general use? Best, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>What do we see in the laboratory of competition? >I know just about nothing about racing.... Do any competition kayakers, >flatwater or ocean, use unfeathered paddles? What feather angles are most >popular? Is there any aspect of touring which would make medium-distance >racers' choice not apply for general use? Some time back we had a discussion about this and the one thing that emerged that I found interesting had to do with how the "best" stroke varied with effort. It seems that the racers provide a good example for high output paddling but not necessarily for low output paddling. For example, Bruce Winterbon explained how (in his case) at maximum or high output one set of stroke mechanics seemed to work well but these changed with reduced stroke effort. An interesting aspect of this has to do with which influences which. Does the paddle influence how we paddle or does how we paddle influence the paddle selection and how much of which. My paddles have gotten progressively shorter over time (latest iteration being 80" long) and my stroke more upright. It seems more comfortable to me and seems to produce more power over a longer period of time. As part of a little project of mine I have tested a crossover paddle with a high aspect ratio high lift blade but of short overall length that needs to employ the wing style of stroke. The disagreements we read here suggest that the system has so much complexity (boat, paddle, paddler) that no one dictum applies. I am a bit surprised the Greenland style paddlers haven't jumped right in there as they have always been quite vocal on the "best" paddle and paddling style issue. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jim I like to think of myself as a kayak racer. I do long distances in flat water and oceans. I'm not a world class Greg Barton type racer, but I am a serious recreational racer who trains dilligently year round. I usually finish in the first third of the pack -- though every now and then if the field isn't too hot and I have a good day, I place in the top three. I use an unfeathered paddle. I have never met another unfeathered paddler who races. If there are any of you out there, I'd love to hear from you. I suffer considerable teasing about my choice of an unfeathered paddle. I get lectures on how an unfeathered stroke is inherently inefficient. Any injury or aches and pains following particularly intense training is blamed on my unfeathered paddle. I don't believe these attacks on my unfeathered paddle. My arm problems are due to the fact that I earn my living on a computer. I just can't see how the biomechanics of using an unfeathered paddle as opposed to a feathered paddle can cause the elbow problems I have from time to time. I've watched some incredible racers paddle their boats (as they blast past me on the course) and there's nothing to their stroke with a feathered paddle that I can't do (in theory at least) with my unfeathered paddle. ... and now I will sit back and brace myself for the responces from all you fine feathered racers out there. --Tim -----Original Message----- From: VajraT_at_aol.com To: 735769_at_ican.net; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Sent: 5/2/99 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf > In this particular case I think he discussion > has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. What do we see in the laboratory of competition? I know just about nothing about racing.... Do any competition kayakers, flatwater or ocean, use unfeathered paddles? What feather angles are most popular? Is there any aspect of touring which would make medium-distance racers' choice not apply for general use? Best, Jim ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jim wrote >I like to think of myself as a kayak racer. I do long distances in flat water and oceans. I'm not a world class Greg Barton type racer, but I am a serious recreational racer who trains dilligently year round. I usually finish in the first third of the pack -- though every now and then if the field isn't too hot and I have a good day, I place in the top three. I use an unfeathered paddle. I have never met another unfeathered paddler who races. If there are any of you out there, I'd love to hear from you. I suffer considerable teasing about my choice of an unfeathered paddle <snip> ------------ my situation seems to be similar to yours. kathy and i each have a kayak paddle. hers has a smaller blade than mine, so i use it in local small town races, where wind is often a big deal. i come from a canoeing background and have been educated on planting paddles. with my speedometer i see that i can travel faster with that paddle than my conditioning will support. my limit my stamina, not the paddle. i have been using it for longer duration at closer to vertical. i just ain't man enough to plant a larger paddle for the duration of 8 to 13 miles... so why pay the weight premium for something that doesn't help... paddle-liter. as for razing. at the first race this season, a regional Current-Designs boat rep commented on my small blade ( a CD paddle).. i told him it was all i could handle. he had a larger blade from another company. at the start, i dug into the left... an heard a snap to my right. there he was, first stroke and busted paddle... blade floating... oh well. i didn't laugh too much. the race organizers let him restart 5 minutes later. i always race with a lady's paddle... but no Greenland style paddle for me thanks. larry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/3/99 6:51:50 PM EST, foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net writes: << im wrote > I use an unfeathered paddle. I have never met another unfeathered paddler who races. If there are any of you out there, I'd love to hear from you. I suffer considerable teasing about my choice of an unfeathered paddle <snip> ------------ >> Feathered paddlers seem to have a need to justify their choice. I could happily paddle for the next ten year and never talk feathered/unfeathered. This month I will enter the two day San Juan Challenge Each day the recreational classes start an hour before the Men Completive division . I try to make it to the half way point before Greg Barton passes me. He covers in an hour what it takes me two hours to paddle. Must be the ----- paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with most of your points from religion on down. Possibly the doubles had more trouble into the waves. Doubles are generally faster than singles and that is why they were ahead of me in the first place but it was so common for me to catch them on the into the wind leg I took it as a given and used it in my race strategy. Draft the fastest one I could until we turn into the wind and then pass them then. We don't need a bored university student just one that needs to write a paper. Great idea, experimenting is usually so much better than theorizing or mathematical models. The U of W has a wind tunnel. Kevin Whilden are you listening? Are you bored? Do you know anyone with access to the wind tunnel? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf >Ralph wrote that this feathered Vs unfeathered paddle business takes on the >odor of religion. I disagree. In this particular case I think he discussion >has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. By raising >objections to each other's points we close in on the crux of a complex >subject and the end product (if we obtain one) may enlighten someone. On >the other hand, if I can find my little wax feathered paddle and some pins >I can put this to rest with out much more discussion. :-) > >Matt wrote; > >(SNIP) > >>This diversion of flow >>around the paddler (that causes the "safe lee" and "hopeless" positions in >>sailboat racing) if it occurs to any significant degree would only mean >that >>the paddlers unfeathered blade would be perpendicular to the flow a little >>later in the stroke. > >Perhaps but only depending upon stroke mechanics and then the force would >not act parallel to the line of travel although it might exert a force >against the paddler's arms that might increase his effort. Not sure about >that though. The problem that arises has to do with the turbulent flow >around the boat and paddler. I know of no research on this (I take that >back. I think New Zealanders some years back worked on sprint boats that >resulted in fairings around the cockpit. Ruled illegal right away though). > >I think one has to treat this paddle thing as a system rather than isolated >parts. That makes it complicated and may defy resolution. > > >>Maximum drag is what I meant by most effected. Not much changes, drag >wise, >>if the flow is withing 25 degrees to perpendicular, so the unfeathered >>paddle would have to be very close to the body to get much benefit from >this >>effect. > >I suppose "very close" becomes an issue. For example, I my boat in the >water this afternoon and found the following; During the power phase the >distance from the paddle to my body never exceeded 1'8". Well within the >range where interference effects occur. From exit to power phase the paddle >traveled across the free stream flow and one might even start to suspect >some positive lift occuring. (HMMM?) > >As I played about the thought crossed my mind that the paddle might even >serve to reduce net drag. (HMMMM again) > > >>This may be true in special cases, but my personal experience racing has >>been that when we turn into the wind is when I (in my single) can finally >>catch the double that had been previously out of reach. (Then I use this >>effect--hiding from the wind--behind them and their wake to "draft" them >and >>get a rest before passing). Of course, any angle much off of directly into >>the wind would be a disadvantage to the bigger frontal area of a double >with >>twice the number of paddlers sticking up into the airflow. That could be >the >>reason I caught up or maybe they were all just using unfeathered paddles >>into the wind and I wasn't. > >This really surprises me (not the drafting part but being able to catch >doubles directly up wind) . Perhaps these doubles were pretty poor boats or >paddlers or, as you say, you did not paddle directly into the wind but at >an angle. I have never seen any top level single sprint racers who could >beat top level tandem sprints although once one gets down in the standings >four or five places the double paddlers may have slower times than the top >singles. I suspect this comparison has more validity than mixed racing >particularly where the tandems may have poor characteristics. > > >(SNIPS all over) >> >>If you held the paddle blade directly in front of yourself that would be >>true but it would be hard to paddle much that way (but a near vertical >>stroke might provide a small benefit here). > >Maybe this needs clarification. This is, in fact what I do when paddling >strongly. Perhaps before discussing this further we need to define the >stroke under discussion. It sounds like Matt is discussing a stroke that I >would consider inappropriate for use with an untwisted paddle i.e. long >shaft, straight fore and aft stroke, and paddle held at a large angle to >the water. The old racing paddlers used this kind of stroke. The more >modern stroke sweeps across the body and gets held more vertially. I have >found the "wing" style of stroke superior when one produces high output >regardless of the paddle type (so far). I have some test paddles underway >that i hope will help clarify this. > > >If we could just get some bored university student to do some wind tunnel >test for us we would enter fat city. Failing that I guess we will have to >muddle along with less sophisticated stuff. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, wing paddles are not good for a lot of things tourers do from bracing and stern draw strokes to changing strokes during a long paddle to use different muscles. The wing paddle stroke should be practiced though as it is a powerful stroke even with a conventional paddle. Feathered paddles might cut the windage of high speed paddling only a few tenths of a percent (probably its more, but I'm making a point here) and still have a lot of other disadvantages (which I don't believe they necessarily have) but racers would use them anyway for the slight benefit at top speed just as they are now using wing paddles. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: VajraT_at_aol.com <VajraT_at_aol.com> To: 735769_at_ican.net <735769_at_ican.net>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (un)Feathered paddles in surf >> In this particular case I think he discussion >> has an objective of greater understanding of the topic. >What do we see in the laboratory of competition? >I know just about nothing about racing.... Do any competition kayakers, >flatwater or ocean, use unfeathered paddles? What feather angles are most >popular? Is there any aspect of touring which would make medium-distance >racers' choice not apply for general use? > >Best, Jim >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I believe you can find instructions by typing in the following on your web browser http://guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/PaddleLetter click on <paddle.html> The nice thing about Doug Alderson in he isn't prone to my sarcasm (he just gasn't paddled enough to become jaded like me!) BC'in YA Doug Lloyd At 09:54 AM 5/3/99 -0500, you wrote: >Doug ....really liked your respose on this ...did I detect "sacrcasm set >on lite" ?....A right on response in the opinion of this yet "another >sinner" .....I have tried, I swear I've tried !! .....How thin are the >laminations your bud uses in the paddles he constructs ? ..... >......Peyton (Louisiana) >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.pioneerplanet.com/news/mtc_docs/033708.htm Published: Wednesday, May 5, 1999 Voyageurs bans personal watercraft Few such machines used at national park If you're headed for Voyageurs National Park, leave your personal watercraft at home. The superintendent of the national park on the Minnesota-Ontario border announced this week that the small, highly maneuverable watercraft no longer can be operated in the park. The action implements a National Park Service policy announced last summer directing park superintendents to prohibit use of the controversial machines within parks until a final system wide policy is in place. Instead of immediately banning them, Voyageurs solicited public comment first. Park Superintendent Barbara West said the park received 217 responses and two signed petitions, overwhelmingly favoring a ban on their use within the park. ``They can't say we didn't give it plenty of thought,'' West said. She said the decision was based on a number of factors, including minimizing impacts between different groups, protecting nesting waterfowl and shore birds, and maintaining such aesthetic park values as solitude. Personal watercraft, commonly referred to as jet-skis, have come under unrelenting criticism in many quarters. Critics contend they are noisy and operators too often drive them exclusively in confined areas, bothering other people and wildlife. While the ban had opposition, West said there have not been many personal watercraft used at Voyageurs, a predominately water-based park. ``I think people who oppose it (the ban) oppose it more on theoretical grounds than they do reality,'' she said. West said the decision to ban their use this week coincided with ice-out on park waters. The overall National Park Service regulation, meanwhile, still has not been completed. In April, the National Park Service also announced plans to expand a ban on personal watercraft on the St. Croix National Scenic Riverway, effective May 15. Under that ban, the watercraft would no longer be allowed on the Lower St. Croix River between Taylors Falls, Minn., and Stillwater, Minn., and on a flowage near Trego, Wis. Last year the agency banned use of the machines on the Upper St. Croix except for the Trego and Hayward flowages on the Namekagon River portion of the national scenic riverway. Dennis Lien can be reached at dlien_at_pioneerpress.com or at (651) 228-5588. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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