On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, John Winters wrote: >As for the differences between laminated and poly boats, Another consideration for poly boats is that I'm told the raw materials can be and sometimes are recycled. I'm not sure if the same is true for glass? PeterO. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: I think the words top of the line and plastic are oxymorons. If you are just starting out or want to pound the heck out of your kayak (or you are a white water buff), go plastic. In all other cases I would recommend fiberglass or kevlar. I would recommend you get a good, used glass boat over a "top of the line" tupperware boat any day of the week. A glass boat is lighter, has better water-tight seams, and will paddle much smoother than any plastic boat. This is particularly true after a plastic boat gets some good scratches in the hull. Save your money and spend it on glass, you won't regret it. And if you can't wait to buy, look at a good used glass boat. - Scott Ives -----Original Message----- From: John Fereira <fereira_at_albert.mannlib.cornell.edu> To: Jeff Rowland <jrowland_at_sprynet.com> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again >> >> Are there any kayack models that are considered more top-of-the-line vs other >> model. >> >> Is any one manufacture's kayak considered more superior than all the others? >> What model to you recommended to consider. >> > >I put together a list of what I considered top of the line plastic >boats awhile back. Here's what I had on it: > >Plastic Boats > >Vendor Model Length Width Weight Rudder Price >===================================================================== >Aquaterra Sea Lion 17'2" 22.5" 67.5lbs opt. $1199 >Aquaterra Shadow 16'8" 22" 62.5lbs opt. $1199 >Aquaterra Eclipse 17'2" 22.5" 64.5lbs opt. $1199 >Current Designs Storm 17' 24" 64lbs opt. ????? >Current Designs Squall 16'6" 22" 61lbs opt. ????? >Dagger Magellen 16'6" 22.5" 62lbs opt. $999 >Dagger Atlantis 17'2" 23.5" 69lbs opt. ????? >Necky Looksha IV 17' 22" 53lbs opt. $1188 >Northwest kayak Pursuit RM 16'10" 22" 65lbs opt. $1095 >Old Town Millennium 174 17'4" 22.5" 60lbs opt. $???? >P&H Capella 16'5" 22" 58.6lbs skeg ????? >Prijon Seayak 16'1" 24" 56lbs opt. $999 >Wilderness Sys. Epic 17' 22" 59lbs opt. $1149 >Wilderness Sys. Sealution II 16'6" 22" 57lbs opt. $1149 >Wilderness Sys. Sealution II/XL 17' 23" 60lbs opt. $1199 >Valley (VCP) Skerray RM 17' 23" 56lbs skeg $1355 > > >You can narrow this list down quickly based on your physical attributes. >If you're a larger person you would choose the Eclipse over the Shadow, >the Storm over the Squall, and the Sealution II/XL over the Sealution II. >The Epic is probably the straightest tracking boat and one of the >fastest (but doesn't turn as easily as others). The Seayak probably >has the best plastic. The Capella and Skerray RM are both fast and >manouverable but cost a bit more. All of the boats on that list would >meet your criteria. You'll have to try out as many as possible to >decide which is the best for you. > >Storm, and Looksha IV are > >-- >John Fereira >jaf30_at_cornell.edu >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: I'm not going to flame, but I am going to disagree with you on a few points. > I think the words top of the line and plastic are oxymorons. Since I am the one that used the phrase I used "top of the line" as a limiter in the context of plastic boats. One could just as easily say that top of the line fiberglass is an oxymoron because of the superior attributes of a kevlar layup. > If you are > just starting out or want to pound the heck out of your kayak (or you are a > white water buff), go plastic. In the context of this thread the person looking for a boat essentially *was* starting out. It should also be noted that he asked first about glass boats and I gave several recommendations and he has since decided to look at plastic boats as well. > In all other cases I would recommend fiberglass or kevlar. I would > recommend you get a good, used glass boat over a "top of the line" > tupperware boat any day of the week. The use of the term "tupperware" smacks a bit of elitism but I can think of several days of the week when a plastic boat might be preferable. A plastic boat has a couple of distinct advantages over a fiberglass boat. First as you already eluded to, a plastic boat is likely to suffer less damage in environments where one is likely to encounter rocks. That should also include sharp shells, coral reefs, or anyplace else one might land a kayak. While a scratched plastic boat might inhibit performance, a close encounter in a glass boat and a rocky shoreline might result in much more severe damage (read: a broken kayak). A less experienced paddler is more likely going to inadvertantly run into things than someone with the skills to manoever well. On that day of the week, a plastic boat would be a better choice for a inexperienced paddler. Second, a plastic boat is typically much less inexpensive than a glass boat. It's pretty easy to understand why an experienced kayaker would recommend a glass boat. Experienced kayaker are typically hooked on the sport. Since they love the sport price become less of an issue. ALthough it happens fairly rarely there is a chance that someone just starting out *might* not fall in love with the sport like the rest of us have. Suggesting someone spend $1500-$2500 on a fiberglass for a hobby they're not absolutely sure they're going become passionate about is a bit silly. I don't know about anyone else, but I just don't paddle touring kayaks. I also have a whitewater boat and a canoe. I am also not rich. If I spent $2500 on a top of the line touring boat, I wouldn't be able to afford the canoe and the ww boat. On top of that, paddling isn't my only passion. I also have 9 flyfishing rods and all the associated equipment, three pairs of snow skis, about six sets of darts, and a ever grown music collection. I would imagine that *most* people have more than one hobby and that most people aren't rich. > A glass boat is lighter, has better water-tight seams, and will paddle > much smoother than any plastic boat. This is particularly true after a > plastic boat gets some good scratches in the hull. Save your money and > spend it on glass, you won't regret it. And if you can't wait to buy, look > at a good used glass boat. There seems to be a common presumption that we all live in an area where "good used glass boats" are readily available. For the long time kayaker driving 500 miles or more to look at a kayak or go to a symposium doesn't seem like a big deal. For the first time buyer it is. The longer the first time buyer waits for their first boat the less time they'll have gaining experience. If the first time buyer is like most of us, the first kayak they buy will not be their last. There are a lot of really good touring boats available in plastic that will satisify their needs and won't restrict their learning curve. All that said, when I bought my first kayak I chose a plastic recreational boat. I had it about three weeks before I started looking for something better and found a used fiberglass VCP Skerray about 6 hours away from here. But I also live a block and a half from the put-in to a 40 mile long lake and every hobby that I get involved it I go all the way. I don't just flyfish. I tie all my own flies and have built several rods. I don't just ski recreationally; I raced for a corporate team for several years. I don't play darts; I have competed in tournaments all over the country against world ranked players. When I decided to get into sea kayaking there was a pretty good indication that I would enter the sport with the same passion. I also realize that what boat is right for me isn't going to be right for everyone. -- John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: Yes, you probably will. > A glass boat is lighter, Not always, there's some light plastic boats being built now with double layer, double density plastic. > has better water-tight seams, If you've ever had a glass boat with leaking seams, you'll know what a really leaking boat is. Bulkheads as well! > and will paddle much smoother than any plastic boat. Admittedly plastic can distort. >This is particularly true after a >plastic boat gets some good scratches in the hull. Save your money and >spend it on glass, you won't regret it. As someone else said, keep the plastic boat as a spare for friends. > And if you can't wait to buy, look at a good used glass boat. IF there are any available. Alex Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > >I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: > > Yes, you probably will. > > > A glass boat is lighter, > > Not always, there's some light plastic boats being built now with double > layer, double density plastic. If anyone wants to make some comparisons check out the kayak comparison database that I wrote. It's got over 300 different kayak models (all kinds). The URL is: http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/kayak/ > > has better water-tight seams, > > If you've ever had a glass boat with leaking seams, you'll know what a > really leaking boat is. Bulkheads as well! There are at least a couple of plastic boats that have welded plastic bulkheads (the VCP Skerray RM, for one). I understand that foam bulkheads leak, but how long do they generally last before they start leaking? If it's only a year or two, that would seem to be long enough to decide whether to fix it or upgrade to glass. > > and will paddle much smoother than any plastic boat. > > Admittedly plastic can distort. Plastic boats are getting a lot better. The Prijon Seayak is quite stiff and remains that way and it's more resistant to damage from a rock than fiberglass. -- John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott Ives wrote: > > I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: We don't flame people for expressing opinions here. > > A glass boat is lighter, has better water-tight seams, and will paddle > much smoother than any plastic boat. This is particularly true after a > plastic boat gets some good scratches in the hull. Save your money and > spend it on glass, you won't regret it. And if you can't wait to buy, look > at a good used glass boat. > A glass boat is lighter then a plastic boat of the same design, for sure. Of course, if you look at the whole package of boat, paddler, food, camping gear, etc, it works out to be about 3% lighter. And about 75% more expensive. Better watertight seams? Plastic boats don't got no seams, which has to be more water-tight than be best glass. Glass will paddle smoother, yes. Especially after the plastic boat gets some scratches? I doubt that the scratches make a noticeable difference to anyone but an expert, and we're giving advice to a total beginner here. John Winters may even have some data on drag due to scratches. Or maybe Prof. Inverbon Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:58 PM -0400 6/21/99, Scott Ives wrote: >I'm going to get flamed for this one ... oh well here I go: > > I think the words top of the line and plastic are oxymorons. If you are >just starting out or want to pound the heck out of your kayak (or you are a >white water buff), go plastic. In any catagory there is a "top-of-the-line" in that catagory.There are some very nice roto-molded kayaks (for roto-molded) which are better by many criteria than some I have seen in glass or kevlar. The designs which are typically made by roto molding are even better when made of glass or kevlar. The Sea Lion is an example of a decent rotomolded boat which is very nice in glass. > > In all other cases I would recommend fiberglass or kevlar. I would >recommend you get a good, used glass boat over a "top of the line" >tupperware boat any day of the week. I once paddled with a guy who liked to seal launch instead of getting his feet wet. I would not recommend a glass boat to him. If he wants to grind holes in the bottom of his boat he should do it with a less expensive boat. There are other more valid reason why rotomolded is better for some people. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One thing about the plastic boat for a first purchase, is that you may find that you have less inhibition about drilling holes in it for placing whatever fixtures you want available. After a few years of paddling it, you will know what you want, and where you want it. Then you get the fiberglass boat, and mount your gizmos with confidence knowing you won't regret the placement of rod holders, sonar mounts, lights, cleats, compass, etc. On my own plastic boat, I now know that my compass is to close, and my sonar mount is just a little to far forward, I know that I want both rod holders to be of a different type than my first; I know that I need to use brass screws, and large brass washers as backing. I know that a white all- around light needs to be taller than the paddler in order to be effective, thus demanding a strenthened mount if such a light is desired. I know that snag free rigging needs to be in place for bow and stern anchor points. When I do finally purchase that custom Falcon 18 or Mariner II; I'll be able to tell the maker exactly what I want, and why I want it just that way. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John, Thanks for your comments. It's nice when folks can disagree and be polite about it! The last point I want to make in this thread concerns cost. I don't think you have to be rich to paddle fiberglass. I see many ads for good, used fiberglass boats (often with all the accessories included!) at around $1,000. This is about the price you will pay for a top of the line plastic boat. However, the distinction is that most folks who like kayaking will quickly outgrow their beginner plastic boat (assuming it wasn't purchased for rocky paddling or white water paddling). By contrast, a good glass boat will keep pace with their improving skills much longer. I didn't meant to sound disparaging when I used the term "tupperware", please accept my apologies. Also, in this day and age, good used glass boats ARE readily available. Just check out the CPA newsletter, the local papers and the internet newsgroups. In one weekend, I traveled from Washington, D.C. and sold my kayak in New York, and picked up a "new" used kayak in Philadelphia! Yes, it was a lot of traveling, but it was well worth it! (BTW, I bought and sold these boats through the internet). Happy boating glass and plastic folks! - Scott Ives John F. wrote: >> ... > Second, a plastic boat is typically much less inexpensive > than a glass boat. ... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > John, > > Thanks for your comments. It's nice when folks can disagree and be polite > about it! The last point I want to make in this thread concerns cost. > I don't think you have to be rich to paddle fiberglass. I see many ads for > good, used fiberglass boats (often with all the accessories included!) at > around $1,000. This is about the price you will pay for a top of the line > plastic boat. Depends on what you consider top-of-the-line. Actually most of the plastic boats that I consider top of the line are in the $1200 range. It's rare to see a top of the line glass boat used even in that range. > However, the distinction is that most folks who like kayaking will > quickly outgrow their beginner plastic boat (assuming it wasn't purchased > for rocky paddling or white water paddling). By contrast, a good glass > boat will keep pace with their improving skills much longer. I agree that a "beginner" plastic boat will restrict ones ability to improve. I can think of quite a few plastic boats that a beginner could paddle for several years before outgrowing it. The Necky Looksha, P&H Capella, VCP Skerray RM, and several others are going to keep pace with virtually anyone learning curve during for at least a few years. Frankly, I just can't see anyone outgrowing some of the top of the line plastic boats available in less than three or so years. At that point I would certainly see an upgrade to a glass boat. > > I didn't meant to sound disparaging when I used the term "tupperware", > please accept my apologies. No offense taken. I am aware that it's a commonly used description but, to me, it sounds a bit elitist. > Also, in this day and age, good used glass boats ARE readily available. > Just check out the CPA newsletter, the local papers and the internet > newsgroups. In one weekend, I traveled from Washington, D.C. and sold my > kayak in New York, and picked up a "new" used kayak in Philadelphia! Yes, > it was a lot of traveling, but it was well worth it! (BTW, I bought and > sold these boats through the internet). Those are all three major cities. I'm sure I'm not the only one that "lives in the boonies". There are only two kayak shops (one owned by a friend of mine is only a month old) in my town. The next closest is over an hour away and their selection isn't any better. It's a 3-4 hour drive to the nearest shop that carries a "decent" selection. That doesn't seem like much to someone that has been paddling for awhile but for a beginner it's a bit daunting. BTW, I also found my fiberglass boat through the internet (as well as my ww boat, and my paddles). Since I don't own a car I took a 4 1/2 bus ride to NYC, than an hour train ride to the shop. I wouldn't have traveled that far if I was unsure that I was really going to *like* sea kayaking. -- John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tupperware, (actually it is the same stuff ....ergo the moniker), might be more affectionate and less disparaging....... but the truly snobby......... such as skin boat enthusiasts refer to their rotomold cousins as 'yogurt cups'. (I ought to know.....I are one-- that's skin boat enthusiast, not yogurt cup), now that's disparaging! As in one Swedish builder who states, " Why spend your precious water time paddling a yogurt cup?" Everybody starts somewhere..........I started with a homemade skin on aluminum framed monstrosity that my Dad and I blissfully sewed together (as in, ignorance is bliss), that was so crude that it had a square manhole and no need for a spray skirt, as a coaming occurred to no one in construction.........but man, wasn't I king of the Millstone River back in 1963!!! Skupper Pro......why not? Seacret, sure I've had 'em. Kyook......sure! Loved 'em all! Lawd! I've even surfed a Blazer (that's Perception, not Chevy)_in the ocean here in JAW-juh! Now that's about as poor a surf boat as you could ever conceive ('bout all it does really well is backsurf the whitewater pile)___ and I loved them ALL (at the moment). So what ever your hand finds to do do it with all your might! Get wet! In any kayak whatsoever! You won't be sorry. You'll just develop a roving eye. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Tupperware" is an excellent term for the "oil-canning" of my heavily loaded OT Disco in moving water... At first I thought it was a construction material defect, not the material/design defect it represents. Still we have paddled about 1200 miles in it on BIG Lakes and Rivers ) like Alberta's Peace River in flood)....it is a beginners boat, and fit my early interest and low skills, and budget. Next year , I am hoping to get a Bell Northwoods, either in glass or kevlar. I know you are discussing kayaks, but it applies to canoes as well. And..AH!!! the epiphany when I first travel in a "top of the line boat" . (GRIN) -----Original Message----- From: Scott Ives <ssives_at_erols.com> To: John Fereira <fereira_at_albert.mannlib.cornell.edu> Cc: jrowland_at_sprynet.com <jrowland_at_sprynet.com>; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, June 21, 1999 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again > I didn't meant to sound disparaging when I used the term "tupperware", >please accept my apologies. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As for the differences between laminated and poly boats, poly boats generally weigh more than equivalent laminated boats although some builders build rather heavy glass boats. The weight does make a difference mostly because the ends have high concentrations of material that increase the moment of inertia. Poly does distort over time (and with heat) more than laminated boats. Poly does scratch differently from laminated boats by having raised hairs of material that increase resistance over time more than similar scratches on laminated boats that do not protrude from the surface. The aesthetics of poly take a bit of getting used to (at least for me). Some people object to the "waxy" look, lack of gloss, and lack of color depth. In a general sense Poly will take a lot more hard knocks so if you plan to abuse your boat then that may make your decision for you. Poly, whether used or new, generally costs less. While I and others place great importance on performance the differences between similar designs won't shake the earth. If performance has a low priority for you why should you care what the self-styled purists think? Re-sale value depends so much upon condition that you may do just as well with a poly boat as a laminated boat. I have no good feel for this. Boat prices seem to vary according to the phases of the moon or something. Repair of broken poly boats (it does happen) can pose problems. I have heard no long term durability reports on repairs. perhaps someone who has had a poly boat fixed will know. Even badly damaged laminated boats can be fixed by the owner. ETC, Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, John Winters wrote: > Poly does scratch differently from laminated boats by having raised hairs > of material that increase resistance over time more than similar scratches > on laminated boats that do not protrude from the surface. > The question I was interested in the answer to was do these scratches make a detectable difference in the performance? Greg Barton can probably tell the difference. A test tank can probably tell the difference. Would be expect anyone else to be able to tell the difference between a new poly hull and a scratched one? No question that glass hulls are prettier. Although it's rare to see the multicolor effects that Perception and Dagger do in plastic done in glass. Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just a couple of comments in support and expansion of several of John's points below about polyethylene kayaks: John Winters wrote: > > As for the differences between laminated and poly boats, poly boats > generally weigh more than equivalent laminated boats although some builders > build rather heavy glass boats. The weight does make a difference mostly > because the ends have high concentrations of material that increase the > moment of inertia. This concentration of weight at the ends often makes poly boats a bit harder to solo carry than a laminated glass or other material boat. If in your shoulder carry the boat goes off horizontal a bit and you start correcting, you get a seesaw effect that can be difficult to correct and makes the carry more tiring than in a similar weight laminated boat. I found that out years ago when I would have difficulty carrying a Chinook I was using but not at all a longer laminated boat. > Poly does distort over time (and with heat) more than laminated boats. > > Poly does scratch differently from laminated boats by having raised hairs > of material that increase resistance over time more than similar scratches > on laminated boats that do not protrude from the surface. > > The aesthetics of poly take a bit of getting used to (at least for me). > Some people object to the "waxy" look, lack of gloss, and lack of color > depth. > SNIPPED > While I and others place great importance on performance the differences > between similar designs won't shake the earth. If performance has a low > priority for you why should you care what the self-styled purists think? For the average paddler the difference in performance is not earthshaking and likely to be hardly noticeable. Ah but the mystique and prestige of laminates probably puts more buzz in your pants, makes you stand taller than the person in poly. Just one other difference that I would like to add. The coamings on poly boats are not as sharp as those on laminated kayaks. Therefore they don't hold a sprayskirt as well. > Repair of broken poly boats (it does happen) can pose problems. I have > heard no long term durability reports on repairs. perhaps someone who has > had a poly boat fixed will know. Even badly damaged laminated boats can be > fixed by the owner. My understanding from people who advise on repairs of poly boats is that after a certain age, the stiffening of the poly makes it more difficult for a repair with more pliable fresh material to adhere well. The laminates can be repaired for quite a few years more than a poly boat can be fixed. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The percentages don't really work that way. An average plastic touring boat with hatches, etc weighs around 70 lbs. A typical glass boat weighs 50 lbs. and Kevlar around 40 lbs. BIG difference between hefting a 70 lb. boat and a 40lb boat after a long days paddle! Big difference between a 50 lb. and 40lb boat! cya >>>> A glass boat is lighter then a plastic boat of the same design, for sure. Of course, if you look at the whole package of boat, paddler, food, camping gear, etc, it works out to be about 3% lighter. And about 75% more expensive. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Bob Denton wrote: > The percentages don't really work that way. An average plastic touring boat > with hatches, etc weighs around 70 lbs. A typical glass boat weighs 50 lbs. > and Kevlar around 40 lbs. BIG difference between hefting a 70 lb. boat and a > 40lb boat after a long days paddle! Big difference between a 50 lb. and 40lb > boat! > > > A glass boat is lighter then a plastic boat of the same design, for > > sure. Of course, if you look at the whole package of boat, paddler, > > food, camping gear, etc, it works out to be about 3% lighter. And > > about 75% more expensive. > As I think is clear from what you quoted, I was referring to the boat as it is being paddled on a tour, not as it is being lifted onto the car. Definitely, it makes a difference, but I don't have any particular problem hoisting my plastic Sea Lion onto the top of the truck at the end of the day. It's no heavier than my WW canoe, which is also plastic. Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a friend who blew his back out lifting his boat on to the roof of his van. THEN he bought a superlight Kevlar boat but it was too late. He can no longer paddle... Kevlar is cheaper then back surgery! cya ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 10:42 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again > On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Bob Denton wrote: > > > The percentages don't really work that way. An average plastic touring boat > > with hatches, etc weighs around 70 lbs. A typical glass boat weighs 50 lbs. > > and Kevlar around 40 lbs. BIG difference between hefting a 70 lb. boat and a > > 40lb boat after a long days paddle! Big difference between a 50 lb. and 40lb > > boat! > > > > > A glass boat is lighter then a plastic boat of the same design, for > > > sure. Of course, if you look at the whole package of boat, paddler, > > > food, camping gear, etc, it works out to be about 3% lighter. And > > > about 75% more expensive. > > > As I think is clear from what you quoted, I was referring to the boat as > it is being paddled on a tour, not as it is being lifted onto the car. > Definitely, it makes a difference, but I don't have any particular problem > hoisting my plastic Sea Lion onto the top of the truck at the end of the > day. It's no heavier than my WW canoe, which is also plastic. > > Steve Cramer > Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can > University of Georgia always tell what you > Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > I have a friend who blew his back out lifting his boat on to the roof of his > van. THEN he bought a superlight Kevlar boat but it was too late. He can no > longer paddle... > > Kevlar is cheaper then back surgery! So is learning how to lift correctly. -- John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters said: << I have heard no long term durability reports on repairs. perhaps someone who has had a poly boat fixed will know. >> I have an old yellow Aquaterra Spectrum that fell off a moving trailer (before I owned it), and had a huge hole in the bow. It was welded with yellow plastic in a very messy manner, but it seemed to hold OK until I bumped into a rock while moving fairly rapidly downstream on the Truckee River. The weld came loose a little and the boat was leaking. So I found an industrial plastic welder who fixed it very neatly, but with white plastic so it doesn't match my boat's color. Anyway, I haven't had any problems since, but the bulkhead does leak and I need to seal it occasionally. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: June 22, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again > >> Poly does scratch differently from laminated boats by having raised hairs >> of material that increase resistance over time more than similar scratches >> on laminated boats that do not protrude from the surface. >> >The question I was interested in the answer to was do these scratches make >a detectable difference in the performance? Greg Barton can probably tell >the difference. A test tank can probably tell the difference. Would be >expect anyone else to be able to tell the difference between a new poly >hull and a scratched one? At the end of a long day it does make a difference but I doubt if many people can get in a scratched boat a tell it has more resistance without a smooth boat to compare it with. I have this little story to support the point. Some years back a person who owned one of my canoe designs came to me asking if I had redesigned the boat. He said that a friend had bought a new one and it was faster than his old model. He said he tried the new boat and there was no question it was faster. Now the interesting part. Both boats came from the same mold and weighed within five pounds of each other. The only difference seemed to be the badly scratched bottom of the old boat. So, can you tell the difference? Maybe not. But, on the other hand it exists and maybe so given the proper circumstances. For the numerically infatuated I increase the coefficient of friction by 0.001 for poly boats in KAPER. It seems to fit the test tank data we have. > >No question that glass hulls are prettier. Although it's rare to see the >multicolor effects that Perception and Dagger do in plastic done in glass. Hmmm, some people would not consider that "better" aesthetically. :-) As the Devil once said, "Pretty, but is it art?" Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, John Winters wrote: > >The question I was interested in the answer to was do these scratches make > >a detectable difference in the performance? > > At the end of a long day it does make a difference but I doubt if many > people can get in a scratched boat a tell it has more resistance without a > smooth boat to compare it with. > > I have this little story to support the point. Some years back a person who > owned one of my canoe designs came to me asking if I had redesigned the > boat. He said that a friend had bought a new one and it was faster than his > old model. He said he tried the new boat and there was no question it was > faster. > > Now the interesting part. Both boats came from the same mold and weighed > within five pounds of each other. The only difference seemed to be the > badly scratched bottom of the old boat. > > So, can you tell the difference? Maybe not. But, on the other hand it > exists and maybe so given the proper circumstances. Those were glass boats, weren't they, John? The ones that aren't supposed to be subject to performance-impairing scratches? > >No question that glass hulls are prettier. Although it's rare to see the > >multicolor effects that Perception and Dagger do in plastic done in glass. > > Hmmm, some people would not consider that "better" aesthetically. :-) Point taken. Somebody must like it. Steve Scarborough, maybe. > > As the Devil once said, "Pretty, but is it art?" Was he talking about kayaks? Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I bought a poly boat from Rutabaga in Madison, WI. They apply your full poly boat purchase price towards a regularly priced glass or kevlar boat within two years of the date of purchase should you decide to upgrade (that does not apply to WW boats though). I wanted to "get my feet wet" and make my mistakes with a poly. I have already learned a lot. Two weeks ago I learned from a colleague that glass boats should stay away from breakwalls. I also learned that glass boats that get broken in half at sea are not covered under standard home owners insurance. -Bob Matter ---------------------------------------------- http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/rjmatter Protect privacy, boycott Intel: http://www.bigbrotherinside.org ---------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: June 22, 1999 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again (SNIP) > >Those were glass boats, weren't they, John? The ones that aren't supposed >to be subject to performance-impairing scratches? Scratches hurt, even the recessed type that occur on FRP. They just hurt less than the kind that protrude into the free stream. > >> >No question that glass hulls are prettier. Although it's rare to see the >> >multicolor effects that Perception and Dagger do in plastic done in glass. >> >> Hmmm, some people would not consider that "better" aesthetically. :-) > >Point taken. Somebody must like it. Steve Scarborough, maybe. And I do have to admit that they have done quite well selling those things. Still......... >> >> As the Devil once said, "Pretty, but is it art?" > >Was he talking about kayaks? If he wasn't he missed a good opportunity. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: John Fereira <fereira_at_albert.mannlib.cornell.edu> To: Jeff Rowland <jrowland_at_sprynet.com> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 5:46 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again >I put together a list of what I considered top of the line plastic >boats awhile back. Here's what I had on it: > >Plastic Boats > >Vendor Model Length Width Weight Rudder Price >===================================================================== >Aquaterra Sea Lion 17'2" 22.5" 67.5lbs opt. $1199 >Aquaterra Shadow 16'8" 22" 62.5lbs opt. $1199 >Aquaterra Eclipse 17'2" 22.5" 64.5lbs opt. $1199 >Current Designs Storm 17' 24" 64lbs opt. ????? >Current Designs Squall 16'6" 22" 61lbs opt. ????? >Dagger Magellen 16'6" 22.5" 62lbs opt. $999 >Dagger Atlantis 17'2" 23.5" 69lbs opt. ????? >Necky Looksha IV 17' 22" 53lbs opt. $1188 >Northwest kayak Pursuit RM 16'10" 22" 65lbs opt. $1095 >Old Town Millennium 174 17'4" 22.5" 60lbs opt. $???? >P&H Capella 16'5" 22" 58.6lbs skeg ????? >Prijon Seayak 16'1" 24" 56lbs opt. $999 >Wilderness Sys. Epic 17' 22" 59lbs opt. $1149 >Wilderness Sys. Sealution II 16'6" 22" 57lbs opt. $1149 >Wilderness Sys. Sealution II/XL 17' 23" 60lbs opt. $1199 >Valley (VCP) Skerray RM 17' 23" 56lbs skeg $1355 >John Fereira >jaf30_at_cornell.edu I wouldn't pay too much attention to the weights on this list and if you go shopping for a kayak bring a bathroom scale with you if the weight is important to you. The above weights were probably advertised weights. Sea Kayaker magazine weighed a few of these (that were provided by the manufacturer or distributor) and here is what they got: Dagger Magellan 59.8 lbs. Prijon Seayak 77 lbs. Wilderness Systems Epic 78.5 lbs. I don't know what the real weights are on the others but I wouldn't pay too much attention to any "advertised weight". To be fair I have seen fiberglass kayaks that I weighed to be 15 lbs. heavier than advertised as well. Bring your own scale. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: John Fereira <fereira_at_albert.mannlib.cornell.edu> To: Alex Ferguson <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, June 21, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again > There are at least a couple of plastic boats that have welded > plastic bulkheads (the VCP Skerray RM, for one). I understand > that foam bulkheads leak, but how long do they generally last > before they start leaking? If it's only a year or two, that > would seem to be long enough to decide whether to fix it or > upgrade to glass. When asked by a customer if the caulked in foam bulkheads were watertight the designer and retailer of one model would answer that they were "guaranteed to leak in a week". I may be a little out of date here but nothing much sticks to polyethelene very long. How to you fix it once you have decided to? When I called one designer of a plastic kayak (same one) to asked if he had changed the design. I was curious because when I retested it it now turned about twice as fast and didn't track worth a darn anymore. He informed me that the design hadn't been changed but that no two plastic kayaks of the same model are the same. It seems the highest paid guy in the factory was the guy who tried to wrestle them into shape once they came out of the mold (all soft and rubbery) before they cooled ans stiffened up. Since then I have retested my turning times on several plastic kayak models and while none showed the extreme differences of that first one there was definitely an inconsistency that was not there on retests of fiberglass models unless there was a design change. Lesson: If you plan to buy a plastic kayak test the very one you are thinking of buying, not just a demonstrator. Once you buy it be very careful in storage not to hang it or set it in a way that it can sag out of shape. This can be especially severe in hot climates or locations. Do not store them in the sun either because the sun (as well as ozone and breakdown products of natural gas--among others--I imagine) cause the plastic to lose plasticizer more readily and this results in premature brittleness. The life of even a well cared for plastic kayak is far shorter than most fiberglass kayaks due to this plasticizer migration. Once a plastic kayak that has become brittle cracks, trying to repair it is probably not only futile but potentially dangerous because it is likely to just crack again somewhere else maybe at an inoportune time. The "repairs" I have seen done to plastic were grotesque. Severely damaged glass kayaks can be made to look almost new. While I have paddled some plastic kayaks that I liked a lot better than some fiberglass ones I paddled the same day my general impression has been that they feel "dead" as opposed to "lively". I'm not sure why but I suspect it may have something to do with flexing and absorbing some of the energy of my stroke. Also the heavier weight may contribute to the feeling of a lack of acceleration when starting one up. My first thought is often "am I dragging something?" and then after looking back to see, I realize "oh yeah, plastic, why do I forget to expect that heavy dead feeling and get surprised every time." The towing tank tests Sea Kayaker did back in 1986 suggest that there is more drag on a plastic kayak than a glass one even when they are both new. Once they get scratched up the difference becomes much greater because roughness sticking out into the flow causes far more drag than the inward (scratches and gouges) roughness that happens to fiberglass gelcoat. There are some fiberglass kayaks that aren't much more expensive than plastic ones that I like a lot better than any plastic kayak I've ever used (but since I sell them maybe I shouldn't mention them by name as that might seem too commercial--even though they are sold many other places as well as by me and I have no other connection to the company.) Comparing toughness between plastic and fiberglass is rarely done by using the same weight kayak. A well made 78 pound fiberglass kayak would be extremely hard to break. Rarely does a paddler need that kind of toughness and most gladly trade some of it away for something they can lift onto their car by themselves. Most sea kayaks made of plastic need to be thicker (and therefore heavier) to get enough stiffness just to hold their shape. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: [mongo snip] > There are some fiberglass kayaks that aren't much more expensive than > plastic ones that I like a lot better than any plastic kayak I've ever used > (but since I sell them maybe I shouldn't mention them by name as that might > seem too commercial--even though they are sold many other places as well as > by me and I have no other connection to the company.) While we are comparing composite (fiberglas, kevlar/polyester, epoxy) and polyethylene kayaks, how about tossing in the polycarbonate options, such as the yaks Eddyline manufactures? (I think Eddyline calls their polycarbonate "Carbonlite" or somesuch.) I believe polycarbonate is not repairable. OTOH, the yaks I have seen made from polycarbonate look to be more consistent in shape than polyethylene units, are lighter than polyethylene, and I believe are only a little more expensive than "high end" polyethylene boats. Is polycarbonate a reasonable choice for someone looking for an entry-level boat, but who does not want polyethylene? Just asking -- I have no connection to Eddyline or the polycarbonate people. I do own a couple FG/polyester Eddyline yaks, though. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR Wind Dancer (the cargo barge) Sea Star (a faster cargo barge) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again >On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, John Winters wrote: > >> Poly does scratch differently from laminated boats by having raised hairs >> of material that increase resistance over time more than similar scratches >> on laminated boats that do not protrude from the surface. >> >The question I was interested in the answer to was do these scratches make >a detectable difference in the performance? Greg Barton can probably tell >the difference. A test tank can probably tell the difference. Would be >expect anyone else to be able to tell the difference between a new poly >hull and a scratched one? guys I used to surf kayak with who had poly river boats would take a blowtorch to burn off the fuzzies. They said it made quite a difference at surfing speeds. > >No question that glass hulls are prettier. Although it's rare to see the >multicolor effects that Perception and Dagger do in plastic done in glass. > >Steve Cramer >Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can >University of Georgia always tell what you >Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> Cc: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Your expertise needed again >rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> Just one other difference that I would like to add. The coamings on >> poly boats are not as sharp as those on laminated kayaks. Therefore >> they don't hold a sprayskirt as well. >> > >There are spray skirts designed just for plastic boats that would be ripped >up by a fiberglass coaming. The Perception skirt for my Pirouette holds >tight as a drum - better than the one for my fg sea kayak. The WW skirt >has a heavy rubber rand around the edge and a thick wedge-shaped >rubber rim on the bottom that fits the plastic coaming snugly. > >It is true that if you use a regular neoprene-to-the-edge style skirt on the >plastic boat it will tend to slip off. I use the SK skirt on my Pirouette in >the pool (since it's beat up and I don't worry about the effects of the >chlorine*) and it slips and leaks somewhat more than I like. It works >fine on the SK, however. So choose the skirt to match the boat. > >Mike > >*actually - it's a way of getting to buy a spiffy new SK skirt... not >working though :-( WARNING! USING A SPRAYDECK THAT IS DESIGNED FOR A PLASTIC KAYAK ON A FIBERGLASS COAMING COULD TRAP YOU IN THE KAYAK. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL TO TEST REVOVING THE SPRAYDECK WITH THIS COMBINATION BEFORE PADDLING WITH IT! MATT BROZE >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > Matt Broze wrote: > > [mongo snip] > > There are some fiberglass kayaks that aren't much more expensive than > > plastic ones that I like a lot better than any plastic kayak I've ever used > > (but since I sell them maybe I shouldn't mention them by name as that might > > seem too commercial--even though they are sold many other places as well as > > by me and I have no other connection to the company.) > > While we are comparing composite (fiberglas, kevlar/polyester, epoxy) and > polyethylene kayaks, how about tossing in the polycarbonate options, such as > the yaks Eddyline manufactures? (I think Eddyline calls their polycarbonate > "Carbonlite" or somesuch.) Another material that has not come up, is wood core, epoxy/fiberglass encapsulation. There are several outfits that sell wood kayaks in kit forms, or plans to build them. Prices can be quite reasonable, though only if you are willing to put in the labor to build them. "Stitch and glue", and "strip built" are the two most common methods. Oops, almost forgot to mention skin frame types. I'm moving from a rotomolded double to a pygmy "Coho" wooden kit myself. I should be able to give comparisons soon. I'm finishing up foot pedals and bulkheads/hatches now, so a test launch will be happening soon. yes, its harder to test paddle in advance. Repairs should be possible, after all, you built it, you should be able to repair it. Actually, the biggest cost seems to be latex gloves, foam brushes/rollers, and other disposable items you use during the building process. dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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