I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while camping along the coast. My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in the inter tidal zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? George *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: GeoHar9966_at_aol.com [mailto:GeoHar9966_at_aol.com] > I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while > camping along the > coast. > My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in > the inter tidal > zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? > This is standard practice here in SE Alaska, but I'm not sure that it is still an accepted practice along our more populated coasts. There was a thread here a while ago regarding the use of "groovers" and other portable, sealable units used to pack waste. These are required on many of our larger western rivers and should be available from a number of outfitters. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 16:17 8/23/99 EDT, GeoHar9966_at_aol.com wrote: >I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while camping along the >coast. >My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in the inter tidal >zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? > >George thanks for asking, seriously... i'd rather not paddle through your poop ;-p take a potta-potty of some sort... we have to on most rivers out here. not too bad to deal with in a canoe... but let's hear some reviews of the kayaking types... mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> > At 16:17 8/23/99 EDT, GeoHar9966_at_aol.com wrote: > >I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while camping along the > >coast. > >My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in the inter tidal > >zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? > > > >George > > thanks for asking, seriously... > i'd rather not paddle through your poop ;-p > take a potta-potty of some sort... we have > to on most rivers out here. not too bad to > deal with in a canoe... but let's hear some > reviews of the kayaking types... Well, sorry about the graphic response, but I was paddling the beautiful coast of the south island of New Zealand when one floated by. Yuck. It happened to be a popular kayak destination, though. I think it would matter how populated the area is and the freqency of kayakers. Jackie (no ascii images for this one 8-} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I encourage those I paddle with to take it with them rather than leave it on the shoreline. It is not pleasant to come across such stuff on dry land or floating on the surface (especially if you enjoy working on skills such as sculling and rolling). I recommend containers with a screw lid rather than pop-off lids, it should be opaque and sized appropriately for your outing (1 day, 10 days, etc.). NRS carries small containers as do others I'm sure. Campmor carries a little folding trowel in a sheath. While everyone has their own methods, I scoop my stuff into a little zippy and place the zippy in the container. Many people put baking soda and/or kitty litter in the container to eliviate odor and moisture. This last 10 day trip in Canada had pit toilets (loo with a view) so we didn't have to carry-out but we still had plenty of, pardon me, stool stories. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: GeoHar9966_at_aol.com[SMTP:GeoHar9966_at_aol.com] > > > I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while camping along > the > coast. > My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in the inter tidal > > zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? > > George > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When you are out exploring beautiful wilderness areas nothing drives me crazier than coming upon a pile of shit complete with a pile of toilet paper. This is totally unnecessary and very inconsiderate. A few weeks ago we were camping on crown land in Ontario and we found a wonderful campsite that even had a privy, but believe it or not, some moron had chosen to take a dump right on the trail about 15 feet from the privy. I guess they didn't feel that the privy was sanitary enough so instead they left a little reminder of their visit. We were back there again this week, and fortunately the feces have now decomposed, but the toilet paper is still clearly visible. It seems to take forever for those patches of white toilet paper that dot the landscape to disappear. It seems that most people on this list are very conscientious about taking care of the wilderness that we enjoy so much, but from what I've seen it is obvious that many other people aren't. So, in case anyone is unaware, the rules for taking a dump in the wilderness are: 1) Use the existing privy if one is available. 2) If no privy, and if the soil is suitable, go at least 15 feet off any path and at least 50 feet back from shore, and then cover the feces with a layer of the surrounding soil and organic material (like a cat in a litter box) which will help speed up the decomposition. MOST IMPORTANT take your toilet paper back to camp and burn it in the fire pit! 3) If the soil isn't suitable, or the area is just too heavily trafficked, bring along newspaper and baggies. Defecate on the newspaper and then either burn it on a hot campfire, or if no campfire, then wrap it up in the newspaper, put the little package in the large size baggie and haul it out with you. If you find the thought of having to handle your own feces unpleasant, imagine what it is like for the rest of us having to deal with it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Did the lower Rio Grande a few years ago. This is all desert, and all sand. Also subject to heavy flooding. So the rule there was; dig a hole, defecate. It would dessicate in the soil fairly quickly. However, paper never would so this you collected in a plastic bag. The bags were taken out and disposed of in civilization somewhere. Joe P. >2) If no privy, and if the soil is suitable, go at least 15 feet off any path >and at least 50 feet back from shore, and then cover the feces with a layer of >the surrounding soil and organic material (like a cat in a litter box) which >will help speed up the decomposition. MOST IMPORTANT take your toilet paper back >to camp and burn it in the fire pit! > >3) If the soil isn't suitable, or the area is just too heavily trafficked, bring >along newspaper and baggies. Defecate on the newspaper and then either burn it >on a hot campfire, or if no campfire, then wrap it up in the newspaper, put the >little package in the large size baggie and haul it out with you. > >If you find the thought of having to handle your own feces unpleasant, imagine >what it is like for the rest of us having to deal with it. > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:58 AM 8/26/99 -0400, Kellerin wrote: >When you are out exploring beautiful wilderness areas nothing drives me crazier >than coming upon a pile of shit complete with a pile of toilet paper. This is >totally unnecessary and very inconsiderate. A few weeks ago we were camping on >crown land in Ontario and we found a wonderful campsite that even had a privy, >but believe it or not, some moron had chosen to take a dump right on the trail >about 15 feet from the privy. I guess they didn't feel that the privy was >sanitary enough so instead they left a little reminder of their visit. We were >back there again this week, and fortunately the feces have now decomposed, but >the toilet paper is still clearly visible. It seems to take forever for those >patches of white toilet paper that dot the landscape to disappear. Here at Cornell there is an event that take place every year called "Dragon Day". The students at the architecture school build a large dragon and parade it through campus while the students of the engineering school build a mock castle and essentially taunt the dragon builders (and the dragon). At the end of the parade the dragon is burned to the ground. In any case, as part of the tradition of the event there are a couple of areas around campus that are "decorated" with toilet paper. The students are allowed to do this but they must get the toilet paper from some "official" source. The toilet paper is some kind of biodegradable variety that basically melts when it gets wet. Dragon day usually occurs at a time of the year when there is a lot of rain so usually all the evidence is gone within a couple of days. I don't know where this particular brand of toilet paper can be found and I can't beleive that I have just written an entire paragraph about toilet paper. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/26/99 3:34:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << I can't beleive that I have just written an entire paragraph about toilet paper. >> Is that better or worse than writing several paragraphs about the other stuff? Be that as it may, but whoever mentioned chocolate pudding definitely deserves the book on "How to s**t in the Woods." Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:03 PM 8/26/99 -0400, Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 8/26/99 3:34:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: > ><< I can't beleive that I have just written an entire paragraph about toilet >paper. >> > >Is that better or worse than writing several paragraphs about the other stuff? > >Be that as it may, but whoever mentioned chocolate pudding definitely >deserves the book on "How to s**t in the Woods." Perhaps it doesn't have the same effect on everyone. I used to go on an annual backpacking trip with a bunch of friends and each year we'd all try to outdo each other by bringing something to eat that was a bit unusual. I *always* brought a few chocolate pudding cups. It became a tradition. One year I brought a small box of sushi but that was topped the next year when a Mexican friend of mine brought 8 authenticly homemade tamales (wrapped in corn husks). His mother, who doesn't speak a word of Englisth made them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > <snip> > Dragon day > usually occurs at a time of the year when there is a lot of rain so > usually all > the evidence is gone within a couple of days. I don't know where this > particular > brand of toilet paper can be found and I can't beleive that I have just > written an > entire paragraph about toilet paper. Hey, it's late in the day, these things happen. I kept expecting a punchline that incorporated the words "*ss," "draggin'" and "toilet paper," though. Steve -- Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:23 PM 8/26/99 -0400, Steve Cramer wrote: >John Fereira wrote: >> ><snip> >> Dragon day >> usually occurs at a time of the year when there is a lot of rain so >> usually all >> the evidence is gone within a couple of days. I don't know where this >> particular >> brand of toilet paper can be found and I can't beleive that I have just >> written an >> entire paragraph about toilet paper. > >Hey, it's late in the day, these things happen. I kept expecting a >punchline that incorporated the words "*ss," "draggin'" and "toilet >paper," though. I don't think I could have done that without mentioning the bottom of a shoe or pantyhose. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kellerin wrote: > > When you are out exploring beautiful wilderness areas nothing drives me crazier > than coming upon a pile of shit complete with a pile of toilet paper. This is > totally unnecessary and very inconsiderate. A few weeks ago we were camping on > crown land in Ontario and we found a wonderful campsite that even had a privy, > but believe it or not, some moron had chosen to take a dump right on the trail > about 15 feet from the privy. I guess they didn't feel that the privy was > sanitary enough so instead they left a little reminder of their visit. We were > back there again this week, and fortunately the feces have now decomposed, but > the toilet paper is still clearly visible. I paddle mostly alone and camp in primative areas. I like my place to look like I was never there when I leave. I also like the place to look like I'm the first person there when I arrive. Therefore, I've been known to buisy myself picking up washed up trash, broken glass, bottle caps, and you name it, all in the name of "now this is a special place again, not a dump".(I have a folbot, so can haul it out with in reason) My question is, why didn't you get "something" and haul the offending pile and TP up to the privy? I'll assure you that you would have felt the better for it. If each of us would pickup just one extra thing, maybe we could shame face most out of trashing our natural places. Foot note:When I worked for the BLM up in AK, one of the things we did was clean and maintain hiking trails. You could alway tell when you arrived near a "scenic spot", as the trash level increased, complete with film packages, pampers(take a picture of this beautiful spot honey, while I change the baby), and even a bra once(we named it liberation point after that). James, gets even by crapping in elevaders"JUST KIDDING!!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I suppose since we are getting scatological, I should tell a story on myself. About 20 years ago I was staying out at a friend's home in the Hamptons (a poor humble dwelling on the wrong side of the tracks). I went for a long run and on the way back I had a need to go real badly. I held out figuring I was getting close to the house but made a wrong turn at a fork in the road. After awhile I realized my mistake but knew there was no time to back-track and get to the house before I went in my running shorts. I looked around and found that I was on a stretch of road with no homes nearby. So, I ducked up a faint path which came on to a small sheltered clearing. I was desperate, didn't look around and squatted down right there since I could not be seen from the road. As I finished, I heard people coming. They were pulling carts. You guessed it, it was a golf green!!! ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
(..from a lurker..) In BC's coastal wilderness areas, most paddlers I know use the intertidal zone, but with a few common sense rules: - Pick a spot that's truly within the next tide cycle, the lower the better. - If its sand or gravel, dig a hole (large clam shells work fine) and then cover it up. - If its rocks and boulders, do your best to cover your business with what's at hand. - All toilet paper should be completely burned, either right then and there (use twigs, sticks, etc. to facilitate) or back at the camp fire. If you can't burn it, bag it until you can. Other options include the "shit-put". (Go on a flat rock near the ocean, then heave the whole thing out into (preferably active) water. Do this only where it makes sense, far from where others may soon paddle or swim. If people think about what they are doing, they won't leave any unpleasant traces for others to discover. From an environmental standpoint, I'm sure the intertidal zone can handle the extra organics just fine. Within reason, "the solution to pollution is dilution". Cheers, Ian ______________________ Ian Cohen / Icon Architecture *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is a story about an Outward Bound trip somewhere in the Southwest where they taught the participants the "smear" technique of disposing of human feces. In arid regions this is/was thought to be the least environmentally damaging. So the instructor mentions that the solid waste should be left on a surface exposed to the sun and smeared with a suitable rock, piece of dead wood, etc to a certain max thickness. (TP is packed out). The principle is the waste dried up, the baddies inside die, the rest crumbles up and blows away. End of story right? Well, unfortunately one crucial element was missing in the teaching. The instructor never mentioned to perform this technique in an area away from travel and general view. Thus the next morning, upon waking, the general camping area was strewn with brown smears on the desert rock. brad >From: "Joe Pylka" <pylka_at_castle.net> >To: "Kellerin" <kellerin_at_ionsys.com>, <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Disposal of Human Waste >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:19:35 -0400 > >Did the lower Rio Grande a few years ago. This is all desert, and all >sand. Also subject to heavy flooding. So the rule there was; dig a hole, >defecate. It would dessicate in the soil fairly quickly. However, paper >never would so this you collected in a plastic bag. The bags were taken >out >and disposed of in civilization somewhere. >Joe P. > > >2) If no privy, and if the soil is suitable, go at least 15 feet off any >path > >and at least 50 feet back from shore, and then cover the feces with a >layer >of > >the surrounding soil and organic material (like a cat in a litter box) >which > >will help speed up the decomposition. MOST IMPORTANT take your toilet >paper >back > >to camp and burn it in the fire pit! > > > >3) If the soil isn't suitable, or the area is just too heavily >trafficked, >bring > >along newspaper and baggies. Defecate on the newspaper and then either >burn >it > >on a hot campfire, or if no campfire, then wrap it up in the newspaper, >put >the > >little package in the large size baggie and haul it out with you. > > > >If you find the thought of having to handle your own feces unpleasant, >imagine > >what it is like for the rest of us having to deal with it. > > > >*************************************************************************** > >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > >*************************************************************************** > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry Ian, I can't agree with you at all. As someone who makes my living designing industrial wastewater treatment programs, I have seen far to many hazardous waste generators who would "clean" up their wastewater by adding more water. Although the concentration of waste in the water is less, the same number of pounds of hazardous material is still there. The same thing holds true for human waste and the ocean. In other words, "Please don't sh*t where I eat (and paddle). ;) Steve <If people think about what they are doing, they won't leave any unpleasant <traces for others to discover. From an environmental standpoint, I'm sure <the intertidal zone can handle the extra organics just fine. Within <reason, "the solution to pollution is dilution". Cheers, Ian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, this week I did pick up the toilet paper and burn it along with cigarette butts and other assorted garbage that we found in the area. But when I first came upon the scene a few weeks ago it was VERY fresh, and as a result, I think I can be forgiven for deciding to simply cover it up till all the little microbes in the soil could work on it a bit. Irene James Lofton wrote: > Kellerin wrote: > > > > When you are out exploring beautiful wilderness areas nothing drives me crazier > > than coming upon a pile of shit complete with a pile of toilet paper. This is > > totally unnecessary and very inconsiderate. A few weeks ago we were camping on > > crown land in Ontario and we found a wonderful campsite that even had a privy, > > but believe it or not, some moron had chosen to take a dump right on the trail > > about 15 feet from the privy. I guess they didn't feel that the privy was > > sanitary enough so instead they left a little reminder of their visit. We were > > back there again this week, and fortunately the feces have now decomposed, but > > the toilet paper is still clearly visible. > > I paddle mostly alone and camp in primative areas. I like my place to > look like I was never there when I leave. I also like the place to look > like I'm the first person there when I arrive. Therefore, I've been known > to buisy myself picking up washed up trash, broken glass, bottle caps, > and you name it, all in the name of "now this is a special place again, > not a dump".(I have a folbot, so can haul it out with in reason) > My question is, why didn't you get "something" and haul the offending > pile and TP up to the privy? I'll assure you that you would have felt the > better for it. > If each of us would pickup just one extra thing, maybe we could shame > face most out of trashing our natural places. > > Foot note:When I worked for the BLM up in AK, one of the things we did > was clean and maintain hiking trails. You could alway tell when you > arrived near a "scenic spot", as the trash level increased, complete with > film packages, pampers(take a picture of this beautiful spot honey, while > I change the baby), and even a bra once(we named it liberation point > after that). > > James, gets even by crapping in elevaders"JUST KIDDING!!" > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mr. Mel and his wonderful shallow well are correct. The technique has been taught for years as a survival technique to military pilots, special forces, etc. You can get a drink but there is not enough water to wash your car. I am supposing that the science is this, the water table at sea level is high, the salt water is heavier than the fresh water. The first water entering the well is fresh, but before long the salt water intrusion takes over. Bruce (St. Aug) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: I > am supposing that the science is this, the water table at sea level is high, > the salt water is heavier than the fresh water. The first water entering the > well is fresh, but before long the salt water intrusion takes over. Interesting! What kinds of places have these fresh water deposits (lenses?) close to the shore? Is it common? (What a fount of information this group is!) e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually now that I remember better, Bacon believed that the soil was filtering out the salt. He was ignorant of ions and stuff. I like the density theory better. I will try this the next time I get to the shore. ----- Original Message ----- From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu> To: <Outfit3029_at_aol.com> Cc: <mslammers_at_earthlink.net>; <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>; <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Disposal of Human Waste > On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > I > > am supposing that the science is this, the water table at sea level is high, > > the salt water is heavier than the fresh water. The first water entering the > > well is fresh, but before long the salt water intrusion takes over. > > Interesting! What kinds of places have these fresh water deposits > (lenses?) close to the shore? Is it common? (What a fount of information > this group is!) e > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > I > > am supposing that the science is this, the water table at sea level is high, > > the salt water is heavier than the fresh water. The first water entering the > > well is fresh, but before long the salt water intrusion takes over. > > Interesting! What kinds of places have these fresh water deposits > (lenses?) close to the shore? Is it common? This only works where there is a *very* high water table inshore -- maybe a couple of feet below ground level, such that when the tide is very low, there is a substantial "downhill" slope from the (fresh) water table surface to the (salt) water surface. I'd guess it works well in the winter/spring/early summer in wet places like the coast of BC, WA, OR, and the like. Probably not workable in late summer in those regions. Under exceptional circumstances it might work in a tropical region where there is substantial annual rainfall and no local easy route for the water table to "leak" to the sea. In other words, no stream or tidal slough. Where I live, there is a humongous aquifer located in some 45 square miles of sandy deposits adjacent to the Columbia River, which "renews" itself every 6 years or so, due to our 6 feet (sometimes 8 feet) of rain annually. Despite the favorable circumstances, some of the water wells drilled in this aquifer produce nasty sulfur/iron saturated water. YMMV -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Actually now that I remember better, Bacon believed that the soil was >filtering out the salt. He was ignorant of ions and stuff. I like the >density theory better. I will try this the next time I get to the shore. One of the things I remember from survival courses is to use a garbage bag or some other impermeable flexible material. Dig a hole in the sand a foot or more deep, put a container at the bottom, lay the plastic over the hole and seal it completely, with a rock or weight on top in the center. Then wait for the sun to do its job. You've built a small still and you can get a fair amount of potable water fairly quickly. The heat evaporates some water which collects on the plastic, runs down the center and into the container. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > One of the things I remember from survival courses is to use a garbage > bag or some other impermeable flexible material. Dig a hole in the sand a > foot or more deep, put a container at the bottom, lay the plastic over the > hole and seal it completely, with a rock or weight on top in the center. > Then wait for the sun to do its job. Would anyone mind if we started calling this thread "Water Sources"? I read down this far before I realized Joe wasn't giving instructions for building a seaside privy. I was about to tell him he has misspelled "son". Steve -- Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This topic sure makes for great lunchtime reading. Chocolate pudding anyone? -----Original Message----- From: Kellerin [mailto:kellerin_at_ionsys.com] Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:59 AM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Disposal of Human Waste When you are out exploring beautiful wilderness areas nothing drives me crazier than coming upon a pile of shit complete with a pile of toilet paper. This is totally unnecessary and very inconsiderate. A few weeks ago we were camping on crown land in Ontario and we found a wonderful campsite that even had a privy, but believe it or not, some moron had chosen to take a dump right on the trail about 15 feet from the privy. I guess they didn't feel that the privy was sanitary enough so instead they left a little reminder of their visit. We were back there again this week, and fortunately the feces have now decomposed, but the toilet paper is still clearly visible. It seems to take forever for those patches of white toilet paper that dot the landscape to disappear. It seems that most people on this list are very conscientious about taking care of the wilderness that we enjoy so much, but from what I've seen it is obvious that many other people aren't. So, in case anyone is unaware, the rules for taking a dump in the wilderness are: 1) Use the existing privy if one is available. 2) If no privy, and if the soil is suitable, go at least 15 feet off any path and at least 50 feet back from shore, and then cover the feces with a layer of the surrounding soil and organic material (like a cat in a litter box) which will help speed up the decomposition. MOST IMPORTANT take your toilet paper back to camp and burn it in the fire pit! 3) If the soil isn't suitable, or the area is just too heavily trafficked, bring along newspaper and baggies. Defecate on the newspaper and then either burn it on a hot campfire, or if no campfire, then wrap it up in the newspaper, put the little package in the large size baggie and haul it out with you. If you find the thought of having to handle your own feces unpleasant, imagine what it is like for the rest of us having to deal with it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
GeoHar9966_at_aol.com wrote: > > I would like suggestions on disposal of human waste while camping along the coast. > My understanding is that you can leave your solid waste in the inter tidal > zone since it is biodegradable. Is this OK? Good question. In the dialog which has ensued over this, I have seen no discussion on what "happens" to human waste if one uses the long-accepted intertidal flush procedure: dig 30 cm deep hole in sand/gravel well below the high tide line, deposit solid waste in it, burn your TP, then cover and tamp. (Note: none of this is approved for freshwater use -- different biology, maybe?) Does anybody know of any **studies** of the rate of microbial breakdown of human waste via this method? I'm asking because at some popular campsites in the Charlottes, I calculate about 150 "deposits" in a week's time during the high season. Like others, I'm not interested in wading/paddling/swimming in someone's poop (not even my own!). However, if the stuff decomposes to non-toxic materials within a couple days, I guess I can live with that. Anybody have data or *knowledge* about that? So far, we have a bunch of anecdotes surrounding pooping on the beach. We can do better than that on Jackie's classy list. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Good question. In the dialog which has ensued over this, I have seen no > discussion on what "happens" to human waste if one uses the long-accepted > intertidal flush procedure: dig 30 cm deep hole in sand/gravel well below the > high tide line, deposit solid waste in it, burn your TP, then cover and tamp. > (Note: none of this is approved for freshwater use -- different biology, > maybe?) On land the "accepted" depth is less, because the bacteria needed for decomposition are close to the surface. Maybe a foot is better where the ground shifts all the time, though. > Does anybody know of any **studies** of the rate of microbial breakdown of > human waste via this method? I think you're right to suspect that procedure may have no solid basis. So many times somebody-or-other's rule gets spread around and becomes gospel, because nobody wants to bother asking questions! > Like others, I'm not interested in wading/paddling/swimming in someone's poop > (not even my own!). However, if the stuff decomposes to non-toxic materials > within a couple days, I guess I can live with that. Nobody wants to have it visibly (or olfactorily) around, but barring very unlikely circumstances, it isn't toxic. It can however contain disease bacteria not killed by salt water, e.g., marine vibrios such as cholera (for which algae blooms are the biggest environmental reservoir, incidentally). But people aren't going paddling much if they have an active cholera infection, I suspect. Re giardia, I don't know if they can survive in sea water -- anyone? If I had to guess I'd say no, but wouldn't rely on that guess. This hasn't been much help; come on you docs out there! e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Roger Bacon (yeah the old guy from Shakespeare's time) wrote books, one of which I saw (very old and I was afraid to handle it much but the man who owned it allowed me to take it home and read it) and in it he described a way of obtaining pure water on a seashore. He claimed that if one moved above the high tide line yet still in the sand and dug a 3-4 deep hole in the sand, the water which came into the bottom would be salt free. I never tried it and it may or may not have anything to do with this discussion but it seems to bear on it somehow. =^..^= --Mel-- Mel Lammers SM&A Senior Associate mslammers_at_earthlink.net mel.lammers_at_smawins.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu> To: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> Cc: PaddleWise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Disposal of Human Waste > > Good question. In the dialog which has ensued over this, I have seen no > > discussion on what "happens" to human waste if one uses the long-accepted > > intertidal flush procedure: dig 30 cm deep hole in sand/gravel well below the > > high tide line, deposit solid waste in it, burn your TP, then cover and tamp. > > (Note: none of this is approved for freshwater use -- different biology, > > maybe?) > > On land the "accepted" depth is less, because the bacteria needed for > decomposition are close to the surface. Maybe a foot is better where the > ground shifts all the time, though. > > > Does anybody know of any **studies** of the rate of microbial breakdown of > > human waste via this method? > > I think you're right to suspect that procedure may have no solid basis. So > many times somebody-or-other's rule gets spread around and becomes gospel, > because nobody wants to bother asking questions! > > > Like others, I'm not interested in wading/paddling/swimming in someone's poop > > (not even my own!). However, if the stuff decomposes to non-toxic materials > > within a couple days, I guess I can live with that. > > Nobody wants to have it visibly (or olfactorily) around, but barring very > unlikely circumstances, it isn't toxic. It can however contain disease > bacteria not killed by salt water, e.g., marine vibrios such as cholera > (for which algae blooms are the biggest environmental reservoir, > incidentally). But people aren't going paddling much if they have an > active cholera infection, I suspect. Re giardia, I don't know if they can > survive in sea water -- anyone? If I had to guess I'd say no, but wouldn't > rely on that guess. > > This hasn't been much help; come on you docs out there! e > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, Mel Lammers wrote: and in it he described a > way of obtaining pure water on a seashore. He claimed that if one moved > above the high tide line yet still in the sand and dug a 3-4 deep hole in > the sand, the water which came into the bottom would be salt free. I love it! maybe we better send this to the Israelis and others who are spending millions on membrane technology, etc., for desalination.... Somehow this reminds me of a person in Boulder, CO some years back, who proposed to the engineering school there (I heard it from a guy on the faculty) that air pollution could be remedied very simply. We just erect a massive chimney from sea level into the stratosphere, and it will suck out all the bad stuff.... Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine.....you might be on (to) something. Actually biblical archeologists are now postulating that that is is exactly the original design of the tower of Babel .......evidently the fertile crescent was exactly * that* in ancient times.......bovine and human flatulence from the fruity diet necessitated a massive building project to try to vent some of the wretched Caananite......um, ......byproducts down the hall to the next county......, and so someone proposed building a 'tower whose top shall reacheth unto, yea, even the heavens, verily'. It was at the time, reaching crisis proportions when a Babylonian couldn't even hazard an after dinner cigar after a nice fish dinner, due to the chance of flash ignition from a carelessly discarded match. This is actually where those 'Stone Cold" type haircuts caught on, quite accidentally, due that carelessly stubbed out stogie....so much so that the Egyptians were quite taken with that bald look, and made a ubiquitous motif for hair fashion in all of their hieroglyphic scrawlings. Bet you didn't know that, did you. Really don't know what any of this has to do with kayaking........but if any of you need any more of this tripe, I'll be only too happy to respond with more fabrications faster than you can say 'pseudopigraphical papyrii'. Chris (self taught Egyptologist) Kohut Elaine Harmon wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, Mel Lammers wrote: > > and in it he described > a > > way of obtaining pure water on a seashore. He claimed that if one moved > > above the high tide line yet still in the sand and dug a 3-4 deep hole in > > the sand, the water which came into the bottom would be salt free. > > I love it! maybe we better send this to the Israelis and others who are > spending millions on membrane technology, etc., for desalination.... > > Somehow this reminds me of a person in Boulder, CO some years back, who > proposed to the engineering school there (I heard it from a guy on the > faculty) that air pollution could be remedied very simply. We just erect a > massive chimney from sea level into the stratosphere, and it will suck out > all the bad stuff.... > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Chris & Ellen Kohut wrote: > Really don't know what any of this has to do with kayaking........but if > any of you need any more of this tripe, I'll be only too happy to respond with > more fabrications faster than you can say 'pseudopigraphical papyrii'. > Chris (self taught > Egyptologist) Kohut More! If it's OK with Jackie. If not, please make up a sublist for those of us who can never get enough. e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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