We had a discussion on Paddlewise here a while back about loading a boat slightly heavier in one end or the other to help control in fore or aft seas, but I wasn't paying a lot of attention and can't find it, now. Just thinking about it, I would think that you would want to be loaded slightly heavier than normal toward the forward end if you anticipate heading into wind or waves, and slightly heavier aft if you anticipate following winds or seas. Did I get that right, or have I got it backwards? -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd wrote: > > We had a discussion on Paddlewise here a while back about loading a boat > slightly heavier in one end or the other to help control in fore or aft > seas, but I wasn't paying a lot of attention and can't find it, now. > > Just thinking about it, I would think that you would want to be loaded > slightly heavier than normal toward the forward end if you anticipate > heading into wind or waves, and slightly heavier aft if you anticipate > following winds or seas. > > Did I get that right, or have I got it backwards? That is basically right from my understanding and own experience although a good argument could be made for keeping the front and rear load in balance. One never knows when conditions can change; for example wind direction; this could mean that within an hour you might see a shift from a following wind/sea to a head-on wind/sea. The sliding seat on some kayaks could help quickly re-set trim a bit. Generally, I like to load as much as I can in the middle of the boat, which is a neutral trim place. That is more possible in wider hardshells and folding kayaks than in narrow ones. And, within the folding kayak family, some brands and models are better suited than others. For example, a single Klepper has plenty of room around you to place items. You have room along both hips for special cockpit bags (sold by Long Haul Products) that can hold things you need while underway; and alongside your legs you can put even larger bags holding heavy gear. The folding kayak's frame provides plenty of places to tie-in these and other bags. You would not have quite as much room in a K-Light but you still could squeeze in some things around you and tie them off to the gunwale and chine bars. Also for neutral trim, consider putting some of your water in the cockpit with you. There is plenty of room for gallons and gallons of the stuff right under your knees, assuming you are paddling with your knees bent and well braced in your boat. It would be best however to be able to tie those water bags down so they don't shift. Again, a folding kayak gives you some frame bars to which to attach webbing to hold such cargo in place. Or if in a fiberglass hardshell you could glass in D-rings there and in other spots inside the cockpit area. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:46 AM 09/02/1999 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >Also for neutral trim, consider putting some of your water in the >cockpit with you. Hi All! This probably won't be too applicable for you SK folks, but in my solo canoe I employ a couple of tricks to adjust the trim while underway. First, I try to load the boat as level as possible at the put-in. I generally use one or more plastic gallon jugs full of water to accomplish this. I arrange things so that I can reach forward with my paddle and slide the jug(s) in the bow back and forth as necessary to adjust the trim. This, coupled with the sliding seat gives me a great deal of adjustability. If I am fishing, I place a 5gal plastic bucket about 1/2 full just forward of the forward thwart. Sliding this fore and aft adjusts the trim, plus it gives me a place to toss any fishies unfortunate enough to get themselves invited to dinner ;-> In nearly all situations, I prefer level trim, but for long hauls into a strong quartering wind (that the correct term? wind coming from 10:00 or 2:00), I have found it advantageous to be trimmed slightly bow heavy. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would like to comment that in addition to setting the fore and aft trim, you should pay particular attention to where the weight is in relation to the middle of the boat (cockpit area). Weight that is far away from the cockpit area makes controlling the boat more difficult. This is what is called "swing weight". To understand this, grab a broom by the brush end and swing it around. Now, grab the broom by the handle end and swing it around. It's much easier to swing it when the weight (the broom end) is closer to you body. This same principle holds true for kayaking. If you have heavy weights in the bow and stern, you'll have to exert more energy to turn the boat than if the weight was closer to the cockpit. Always try to pack your kayak with the heavies items close to the cockpit and down low (nearer the hull than the deck). Cheers, Dave Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net> >We had a discussion on Paddlewise here a while back about loading a boat >slightly heavier in one end or the other to help control in fore or aft >seas, but I wasn't paying a lot of attention and can't find it, now. > >Just thinking about it, I would think that you would want to be loaded >slightly heavier than normal toward the forward end if you anticipate >heading into wind or waves, and slightly heavier aft if you anticipate >following winds or seas. > >Did I get that right, or have I got it backwards? > >-- Wes If you are in an empty kayak and are only going to add 20 pounds or so then what you said "slightly heavier than normal toward the forward end if you anticipate heading into wind or waves, and slightly heavier aft if you anticipate following winds or seas" will improve handling. If you know you will not be turning around then drop the word slightly and load the full 20 pounds in the bow or stern. If there is a good chance of extreme winds (that you may have to turn into) put all the weight in the front. This will hurt sidewind and following sea performance but they are still manageable however you will substantially increase the wind speed you are capable of turning into. This is not the best policy if carrying a substantial gear load because in that case turning up into extreme winds then will be far less of a problem (due to the substantial weight that will already be in the bow). What follows is lifted from my (Mariner Kayaks) websites "Paddling Guide" verbatim: When carrying a lot of gear it is usually best to balance it so the load behind the cockpit weighs nearly 2 times as much as the bow load. The room taken up for legs and feet make the bow load about 1-1/2 to 2 times farther from the center of buoyancy than the rear load. Therefore, putting equal weight in each end would sink the bow much more than the stern. The heavier the gear load the greater the percentage of that weight that should be in the stern. A kayak will track straighter and broach less in following seas if stern heavy because the stern keel is deeper in the water than the bow. Weathercocking in side winds is intensified when a kayak is more heavily loaded. Placing the heaviest weight in the rear helps decrease weathercocking. Even with the bow trimmed higher, turning a loaded kayak into a strong wind is not nearly as difficult as turning an empty one can be. The added gear weight prevents the ends from blowing around so easily. It is not necessary to carry a balance scale along with you to pack your boat. Approximations are fine, I just put all the heaviest bags, water, and fuel in the back and the lightest bags forward. When loading a kayak, also make an effort to keep the heaviest items, such as water, closer to the cockpit (but behind you) in order to retain as much responsiveness to the paddle as possible. Separate your gear into bags containing compact heavy items and bulkier lightweight stuff. Put the densest items (like water) just behind the cockpit and the less dense bags out towards the ends and in the bow. With a small gear load always fill up any space you are not using for storage with partially inflated float bags to maximize flotation. Just before entering any loaded kayak, check to see that it floats on an even keel (side to side) or you will probably discover that it has a penchant for turning towards the high side. Turn over a gear bag or move some heavy items, like water, more to the high side. There is a more detailed explanation of the benefits of fore and aft trim in our "owners manual". In the section on the "instantly adjustable sliding seat". Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>This is what is called "swing weight". To understand this, grab a broom by >the brush end and swing it around. Now, grab the broom by the handle end >and swing it around. It's much easier to swing it when the weight (the >broom end) is closer to you body. This same principle holds true for >kayaking. If you have heavy weights in the bow and stern, you'll have to >exert more energy to turn the boat than if the weight was closer to the >cockpit. > >Always try to pack your kayak with the heavies items close to the cockpit >and down low (nearer the hull than the deck). Good advice from Dave. Keeping weight out of the ends generally seems a good idea. Ralph mentioned the value of storing heavier stuff amidships and along the sides. The ability to do this in wider boats may slow the roll period which might make paddling more comfortable. I have no direct experience with this in a sea kayak and wonder if anyone who owns a wider Klepper (etc.) has noticed this effect. In ships this they call this "winging the load". Another point worth adding to all the good information supplied so far has to do with the relative efficacy of shifting weight in different boats. For example, shifting weight may not prove necessary in boats with rudders or drop down skegs that allow you to modify the relative turning moments with the devices. On boats designed to paddle without rudders the shifting of weight seems to have more importance. I have found it essential in solo canoes much less so in kayaks fitted with rudders and drop down skegs. Some of the old timers on this list may recall the rudder Vs no-rudder debate on Wave-Length in pre-Paddlewise. If I recall correctly the down-under contingent argued rather forcefully that the rudder accomplished this aspect of control more easily since one could not shift weight in the boat easily or as smoothly while underway but could steer easily all the time. I mention this not to restart the old pro and anti-rudder debate but to suggest how a variety of methods might accomplish a particular end. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Along these lines, I've been using a friend's boat, a Looksha IV. She is maybe 130 pounds and I'm 180+ gear, she doesn't carry any gear in the boat except the paddle float and pump. I've got about 10 pounds of stuff I carry. So the way the boat acts with us is totally different. I find the boat tracks badly for me. She was having a similar problem and she put 2.5 gal of water in the stern hatch. She felt this helped a great deal. I tried the same thing and though it tracks better it felt like a tub. It was like I could get out and push the thing faster than I could paddle it. I had tried a bit of weight in the front and it seemed a bit better without the side effect of working so hard to move it. It really didn't solve the problem, though. It may be I'm just too big for the boat. I have a rudder I can use but if there is any way to trim the boat so that I don't "need" the rudder under normal circumstances I'd like to paddle it that way. Where we were last week could get really shallow really fast so the rudder would have been a problem, anyway. The question is in general for tracking in light wind/calm sea conditions how do you improve tracking with the distribution of weight? Maybe the answer is the same as you have been giving here but I'm having a bit of trouble sifting it out of what I'm reading. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > ...<snip>... Some of the old timers on this list may recall the > rudder Vs no-rudder debate on Wave-Length in pre-Paddlewise. If > I recall correctly the down-under contingent argued rather forcefully > that the rudder accomplished this aspect of control more easily since > one could not shift weight in the boat easily or as smoothly while > underway but could steer easily all the time. > > I mention this not to restart the old pro and anti-rudder debate ... Yeah, right! :-) As you realize, there isn't a need to shift weight while underway if you have loaded the kayak appropriately, possess adequate skills, and are paddling a kayak that is sufficiently maneuverable (and yes that *is* how it is spelled, unless you have a picture of British royalty on your currency or live in the Southern Hemisphere, in which case you need to add an "o"). The issue is one of "fine tuning" versus "coarse tuning". Load the boat so that there is a *slight* tendency to weathercock. (Lee helm can be dangerous with high winds, since it can make it very difficult to turn the boat into the wind.) With the right boat it is then easy to control the boat at all points to the wind through the subtle application of paddle strokes, edging, and body rotation (the appropriate combination of these being determined by the conditions). The weight distribution achieves the "coarse" tuning, and the paddler then applies the "fine" tuning. I have paddled for many years using this approach in a wide range of conditions, including full gales on the open coast. For the past few years I have paddled a skeg-free Caribou, which someone here said is difficult to control in the wind (huh?), but which I find to be a joy to paddle in the wind using the above approach. Which brings me to my reason for paddling without a rudder or skeg--it's fun!! Using paddle strokes and body english to control a boat is a blast! IMHO, many of the arguments that have been advanced against the use of rudders are either too utilitarian or are exaggerated. Rudders do not preclude solid foot pegs, they do not interfere significantly with towing, they do not make it all that difficult to back up (flip it up!), they do not prevent seal launchings or landings (see above), they add little drag (if they are rigidly mounted, properly shaped, and used at small angles), and they can be quite reliable (if properly maintained). They offer some added risk in the surf zone, but only if you come out of your boat! In spite of this, I really do not like to use a rudder (or skeg) because it is *more fun* to paddle without one. Matt, why don't you add that to your list? Some folks may prefer to paddle with a rudder because they experience kayaking simply as means of touring rather than as a paddle sport, in which case they want things to be as easy as possible. Others may want the ease of a rudder when confronted with paddling very long distances day after day (for example, when circumnavigating a continent), in which case the rudder acts as a type of "cruise control". And there may be other reasons why people prefer to use rudders. If you enjoy using rudders, that's great! But why not give rudder-free paddling a try (if you haven't done so already)--after you work at it a bit you may just find that you have been missing out on one of the joys of paddling. Happy paddling! (Or is that "happy ruddering"!) Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Does it matter in the handling of the craft where you place the cargo so long as you do not disturb the center of mass? So long as the load is balanced the only effect of adding cargo no matter where you put it is to make the vessel more difficult to accelerate. Is this not so? Joe s -- --- Joseph Sanford <jcasanford_at_earthlink.net> -- - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters observes: << shifting weight may not prove necessary in boats with rudders or drop down skegs that allow you to modify the relative turning moments >> My own much-less-informed experience is that while it may be less important, it still makes a big difference in comfort and ease of paddling, if I load my boat sensibly. It's possible to mis-load many boats so that, even with a skeg or rudder, staying on track can be difficult. In really hairy conditions, and especially with less experienced paddlers, turning can be impossible if the boat is loaded badly. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Bhansen97_at_aol.com <Bhansen97_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fore and aft trim >John Winters observes: ><< shifting weight may not prove necessary in boats with rudders > or drop down skegs that allow you to modify the relative turning moments >> > >My own much-less-informed experience is that while it may be less important, >it still makes a big difference in comfort and ease of paddling, if I load my >boat sensibly. It's possible to mis-load many boats so that, even with a skeg >or rudder, staying on track can be difficult. In really hairy conditions, and >especially with less experienced paddlers, turning can be impossible if the >boat is loaded badly. I agree fully with what you say here. However, I am unclear how it applies to my comments. My comment referred to the practice of shifting weight to correct helm not to how a rudder or skeg can offset poor loading. Hope that clears things up a bit. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>commenting on an earlier post by John Winters Bill Hansen wrote: <snip> >> It's possible to mis-load many boats so that, even with a >skeg >>or rudder, staying on track can be difficult. In really hairy conditions, >and >>especially with less experienced paddlers, turning can be impossible if the >>boat is loaded badly. > >John Winters responded: >I agree fully with what you say here. However, I am unclear how it applies >to my comments. My comment referred to the practice of shifting weight to >correct helm not to how a rudder or skeg can offset poor loading. > >Hope that clears things up a bit. Actually it has confused me since I apparently saw this like Bill did. I am having trouble making a distinction between poor loading and poor weight distribution (causing an incorrect helm that you suggested could be ignored if you have a rudder or skeg with which to compensate). Could you clarify please. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> <LARGE SNIP> > In spite >of this, I really do not like to use a rudder (or skeg) because it is >*more fun* to paddle without one. Matt, why don't you add that to your >list? <SNIP>> >Dan Hagen >Bellingham, Washington > What follows is some parts of a letter I wrote in response to a Sea Kayaker reader (and rudder manufacturer) regarding my critisms of rudders in the Max review. I think it addresses your question, "more fun" is really at the top of my list. Dear Don: Chris gave me a copy of your letter and would like us (and apparently some others since we are both manufacturers) to fight it out on the pages of Sea Kayaker I’ve suggested just such a debate for years and offered to debate my friend John Dowd (the former editor) on the subject. I felt his strong pro rudder and unfeathered paddle stance in his influential book “Sea Kayaking” have made both more popular than they deserved to be. Many new kayakers coming into our store (we sell only sea kayaks and accessories) see that most of the kayaks don’t have rudders and ask if we carry any sea kayaks, apparently assuming that the rudder is what makes the difference between a river and sea kayak (like most of the articles they have read say). Sea Kayaker’s testers were so overwhelmingly positive in their review of our Mariner Max that I had nothing worth responding to. Their unanimous opinion that it didn’t need a rudder allowed me to use the designers response space to point out some of the disadvantages of a rudder. Most new kayakers in America are convinced that the rudder will make kayaking something that even they can do. Sea Kayaker wouldn’t publish any anti-rudder material in the past so I saw this as my chance to slip a very limited (300 word limit) amount past the censors. I edited like crazy to try to fit what I wanted to say into the space allotted in order to “plant the seed” in sea kayaker’s minds that not only are there are boats that don’t need rudders, there is also a price to pay for using them besides the initial cost. I was overjoyed when Chris told me about your letter and was thinking about doing a pro/con article. Upon reading your thoughtful letter I realized that we probably don’t have much to debate. All I can argue is that a really good kayak design has very little benefit from a rudder and that almost all the rudder systems I’ve seen around here have numerous problems that far outweigh the few benefits. Unfortunately, for our having a debate limited to the merits of rudders, with most sea kayaks the benefits of a rudder outweigh the disadvantages. Your argument seems to be that a good rudder would have few if any of the disadvantages that I mentioned. Show me that rudder I might buy it! I’m sure I could design a rudder that won’t foul fishing lines (a concession you made). I’ve thought of several possibilities already. I’m not anti-rudder on general principles. We even designed the sterns of our kayaks so a rudder is easy to mount if a customer wants to have one or to add one later. Almost none do. I have put considerable thought into what would be some very unique rudder designs but, I have little incentive to follow through with these designs because 90% of the kayaks we sell do not have rudders installed (that’s about 98% for Mariners). We carry several models besides our own but have been careful to pick hulls that handle well enough that a rudder is of little benefit. If you make a rudder system that has solid support at the balls of your feet, is mounted forward of the stern (or won’t come out of the water in steep waves for some other reason--I don’t want to limit its location, just keep it functioning continually), is at least as damage resistant as the rest of a solidly built expedition kayak, keeps extra drag to a minimum, requires little or no maintenance, doesn’t hurt the maneuverability of the kayak or its ability to travel through or back up through sea weeds and kelp, is reasonably easy to mount, adapts to a wide variety of hulls, and is reasonably priced, I’d like to market it for you in North America. Even if it only does the majority of the above I’d be interested. What with my supposed anti-rudder bias I’m in a great position to say “I’ve finally found the rudder I can promote”. You asked the key question: Why would you want to paddle a sea kayak without a rudder? Well, to me its a lot more satisfying that way. I also prefer swimming without socks, and kayaking without a reserve motor. Why don’t you put a rudder on your river kayak? Surely you use your wave-ski in worse conditions than wind and chop, why don’t you put a rudder on it? Why not install one on your windsurfer? Probably because you do fine without it and don’t need any more complications. I will dispute your statement that it is easier to paddle with a rudder in wind and chop (at least as long as I get to pick the kayak). My experience (and I have gone out in storms that get names attached to them to play in the waves and practice) is that the stronger the wind blows the more trouble a rudder caused me and the less benefits it provided in compensation. This was true even in a kayak that was benefited by a rudder in 5 to 20 knot winds and smaller following seas. I figure you could add little rudders on the back of snow skis and run the cables from your bindings to D-rings by your knees. I’ll bet beginners would find it easier to turn their skis with this invention. I’ll also bet that they would not find it as satisfying (or have as much control) as using body English, edging and unweighting to control the skis and in the long run they will have a lot of bad habits to break when they want to break their rudder habit. I think training wheels on bicycles are a good analogy, they just get in the way of learning. I prefer to keep it simple. One ride in a sea kayak with a rudder is usually enough to convince most expert whitewater paddlers to look for a responsive sea kayak that doesn’t need one. I find most rudders to be overcontrol devices that operate on a delayed feedback loop. They disconnect you from the direct “seat of your pants” control of the kayak. Because of the feedback delay they must be constantly adjusted to hold a (slightly zigzag) course. This is more noticeable the stickier the mechanism, the more slack in the system, the less resistance in the system and more maneuverable the underlying kayak is. Smooth even resistance in the system and a kayak that tracks well but not too stiff works best (but then that’s true without a rudder too). I find rudders destroy the fine control I have with just the paddle and tilting the kayak. For example: I sometimes run my sea kayak through some slalom gates set up nearby, without the rudder I can thread them with less than an inch on each side. With a rudder down I need a whole lot more room between them to avoid hitting a pole. That’s one reason you don’t have one on your slalom kayak, back surfing is another. I’m not of the opinion that the Eskimos way or any old way is the best just that I have a lot more fun controlling my kayak without a rudder and feel sorry for those paddlers dependent on them. I’m not preventing anyone from using a crutch to walk or a rudder to control their kayak if that’s what they really want. I just think new paddlers are being sold a bill of goods “Look its so easy all you have to do is push the foot forward on the side you want to turn towards anybody can do it even a klutz like you.” Heavens, we will even put it on for them and make more profit if that’s what they want. Actually I usually have someone else install it and don’t make the profit because I’d rather not be blamed for the problems the customer may later have with it. We stand behind our kayaks 100% so it pains me to knowingly provide a customer with potential problems. We only want kayakers and potential kayakers to know that it is possible to do without a rudder and want to provide kayaks with very little use for a rudder to those who would like to try it that way. The option is always open to get a rudder and we will do it for about the same price later as it costs extra to have it as original equipment. Very few customers ever have a rudder installed later and many of them thank me later for showing them another more satisfying way. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> > > <LARGE SNIP> > > In spite > >of this, I really do not like to use a rudder (or skeg) because it is > >*more fun* to paddle without one. Matt, why don't you add that to your Matt Broze wrote: > What follows is some parts of a letter I wrote in response to a Sea Kayaker > reader (and rudder manufacturer) regarding my critisms of rudders in the Max > review. I think it addresses your question, "more fun" is really at the top > of my list. > > ...<snip of long letter>... Excellent letter! Given this turn of events, I retract my comments implying that "fun" is not on your anti-rudder list. I like your idea of a debate in Sea Kayaker (beyond the "Letters" section), with participation from someone such as Alex Ferguson, as well as John Dowd. While few minds would be changed, it would be highly entertaining. And it might help to open the minds of those just starting out, many of whom are only exposed to pro-rudder perspectives. In addition to discussing technical issues and issues of safety, it might be fun if each participant were to submit an introspective essay on the joy of paddling, in which they discuss how the use of a rudder either adds to or detracts from their enjoyment. :-) I am curious as to whether someone's background affects their choice. Based on casual observation, it seems to me that people who started out paddling solo canoes (particularly whitewater canoes) are the least likely to use rudders, followed by those who started out in whitewater kayaks. Dan Hagen one blade or two (never three) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote; >John Winters wrote: >> >> ...<snip>... Some of the old timers on this list may recall the >> rudder Vs no-rudder debate on Wave-Length in pre-Paddlewise. If >> I recall correctly the down-under contingent argued rather forcefully >> that the rudder accomplished this aspect of control more easily since >> one could not shift weight in the boat easily or as smoothly while >> underway but could steer easily all the time. >> >> I mention this not to restart the old pro and anti-rudder debate ... > >Yeah, right! :-) > Seriously, I did not want to start the rudder debate and I apologize profusely if I did. Just to prove it I refuse to participate. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Like it or not, the debate has begun. I don't make boats, I just paddle them. My present boats don't have rudders, prior ones did. >From a consumer point of view: Bad about rudders: They cost money They can brake They work by creating drag They get in the way of everything They flop around on the car-top and hit you in the head when you load and unload your boat. I paddle alone. When I end up outside the boat I like to shinny up the stern and plop back into the seat. That whole rudder, cable mess gets into the way (and hurts). Screw paddle floats, you can freeze trying to mount, inflate and work them while you try to hang onto your boat, paddle glasses or whatever you forgot to tie down. Good about rudders: Going a long way in one direction with any sort of cross wind my arm gets real tired from paddling mostly on one side. I'm no athlete but I do get on the water 3-4 days a week and I still dread long straight shots with a cross wind. All boats are bad in cross-winds, some just less bad than others. How about: Airplanes have trim tabs. That's all a rudder really does for a sea kayak. Couldn't someone make something minimal just to trim the boat to port or starbord for wind? A little simple something(s) without all the cables, peddles, flopping mess of rudders? ----- Original Message ----- From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fore and aft trim > Dan wrote; > > > > >John Winters wrote: > >> > >> ...<snip>... Some of the old timers on this list may recall the > >> rudder Vs no-rudder debate on Wave-Length in pre-Paddlewise. If > >> I recall correctly the down-under contingent argued rather forcefully > >> that the rudder accomplished this aspect of control more easily since > >> one could not shift weight in the boat easily or as smoothly while > >> underway but could steer easily all the time. > >> > >> I mention this not to restart the old pro and anti-rudder debate ... > > > >Yeah, right! :-) > > > > Seriously, I did not want to start the rudder debate and I apologize > profusely if I did. Just to prove it I refuse to participate. > > > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:25 PM 9/4/99 -0700, BaysideBob wrote: >Like it or not, the debate has begun. > >I don't make boats, I just paddle them. > >My present boats don't have rudders, prior >ones did. > >From a consumer point of view: > >Bad about rudders: > You forgot them main item , THEY ARE UGLY, yes I am shouting ,trying to get heard over all the sniveling!!!!! Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From a consumer point of view: >Good about rudders: Going a long way in one direction with any sort of cross wind my arm gets real tired from paddling mostly on one side. I'm no athlete but I do get on the water 3-4 days a week and I still dread long straight shots with a cross wind. All boats are bad in cross-winds, some just less bad than others. >From the commercial tour perspective, rudders could be useful for first-timers. They make the "tour" more enjoyable. I certainly appreciate Matt and others views. It does take something away from the paddling experience. However, since not everyone has a true-tracking Mariner kayak (unfortunately), rudders provide a means to keep a boat going where the paddler wants it to with less effort. A bit of drag isn't a issue for someone who is just starting paddling. It is hard to justify the difference in the amount of energy used to correct a boats tracking compared to the minimal drag that a rudder imparts... not to mention the frustration factor. I have no problem with calling them "training wheels" though "cruise control" seems more appropriate. Once a person is "hooked" on paddling, he or she can then decide whether to go sans rudder or not. It's a personal choice and rudders, like it or not, do have a place in the paddling community. I certainly don't agree with shops that give the misperception that a sea kayak must have a rudder or that if it doesn't have one it's not a sea kayak. That's just plain silly to put it nicely. BTW, personally, I can take 'em or leave 'em. I switch back and forth between using a rudder and not using a rudder. I'll drop it down when I'm feeling lazy or in conditions that push my boat around more than I like. Cheers, Dave the Impartial Dave Williams dave_at_paddleasia.com http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snide remark flag on: They do and call them skegs. Snide remark flag off. =^..^= --Mel-- Mel Lammers mslammers_at_earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net> To: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net>; <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fore and aft trim > Like it or not, the debate has begun. > > I don't make boats, I just paddle them. > > My present boats don't have rudders, prior > ones did. > > >From a consumer point of view: > > Bad about rudders: > They cost money > They can brake > They work by creating drag > They get in the way of everything > They flop around on the car-top and hit you in > the head when you load and unload your boat. > I paddle alone. When I end up outside the boat > I like to shinny up the stern and plop back into > the seat. That whole rudder, cable mess gets > into the way (and hurts). > Screw paddle floats, you can freeze > trying to mount, inflate and work them > while you try to hang onto your boat, paddle > glasses or whatever you forgot to tie down. > > Good about rudders: > Going a long way in one direction > with any sort of cross wind my arm > gets real tired from paddling mostly > on one side. I'm no athlete but I do > get on the water 3-4 days a week > and I still dread long straight shots > with a cross wind. All boats are bad > in cross-winds, some just less bad > than others. > > How about: > Airplanes have trim tabs. That's > all a rudder really does for a sea kayak. > Couldn't someone make something > minimal just to trim the boat to port or > starbord for wind? A little simple > something(s) without all the > cables, peddles, flopping mess of > rudders? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> > To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fore and aft trim > > > > Dan wrote; > > > > > > > > >John Winters wrote: > > >> > > >> ...<snip>... Some of the old timers on this list may recall the > > >> rudder Vs no-rudder debate on Wave-Length in pre-Paddlewise. If > > >> I recall correctly the down-under contingent argued rather forcefully > > >> that the rudder accomplished this aspect of control more easily since > > >> one could not shift weight in the boat easily or as smoothly while > > >> underway but could steer easily all the time. > > >> > > >> I mention this not to restart the old pro and anti-rudder debate ... > > > > > >Yeah, right! :-) > > > > > > > Seriously, I did not want to start the rudder debate and I apologize > > profusely if I did. Just to prove it I refuse to participate. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > John Winters > > Redwing Designs > > Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote in his first post: "For example, shifting weight may not prove necessary in boats with rudders or drop down skegs that allow you to modify the relative turning moments with the devices." Since poor loading can induce weatherhelm and since you talked of correcting weatherhelm by the use of a rudder or drop down skeg rather than shifting weight (which implies that there was some weight--or load--in the kayak that you could shift to lessen the weatherhelm) it would seem to follow that you were also implying a rudder might be able to compensate for poor loading that may have caused the weatherhelm in the kayak in the first place. Since I am most familiar with kayaks that don't weathercock unless you load them poorly I may have not been considering the fact that most kayaks weathercock without weight in them and so was only considering shifting the weight that was causing the problem rather than realizing the problem you were talking about correcting was with the boat itself, not necessarily how it was loaded. Still you can't shift weight unless there is some weight to shift and since we are the only company I know of that allows the paddler to shift their weight to any significant degree I didn't think that the paddler's weight was the weight you would be shifting. Sorry for the misunderstanding, did I get it right this time? If not please explain in more detail. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Date: Saturday, September 04, 1999 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Fore and aft trim > > >>>John Winters responded: >>>I agree fully with what you say here. However, I am unclear how it applies >>>to my comments. My comment referred to the practice of shifting weight to >>>correct helm not to how a rudder or skeg can offset poor loading. >>> >>>Hope that clears things up a bit. >> >> >>Actually it has confused me since I apparently saw this like Bill did. I am >>having trouble making a distinction between poor loading and poor weight >>distribution (causing an incorrect helm that you suggested could be ignored >>if you have a rudder or skeg with which to compensate). Could you clarify >>please. >> > > >Would you show me where, in my original post in paragraph two and three >that >I referred to poor loading or poor weight distribution. > >Would you show me where in my original post in paragraph two and three that >I >said that a rudder or skeg could be used to offset improper loading or >weight distribution. > >Once I know where and how you got that impression it will help in clearing >up the misunderstanding. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net> <SNIP> >Good about rudders: > Going a long way in one direction > with any sort of cross wind my arm > gets real tired from paddling mostly > on one side. I'm no athlete but I do > get on the water 3-4 days a week > and I still dread long straight shots > with a cross wind. All boats are bad > in cross-winds, some just less bad > than others. I don't think you have paddled any Mariner Kayaks to have used the word "All" in the above. Also I suggest you read the "Course Keeping" section of Mariner Kayaks' "Paddling" manual on our website http://www.marinerkayaks.com. There are tips there on how to combat weathercocking that you may find of value. I suspect Dan Hagen uses many of them to make a kayak that others have labelled "uncontrollable" in strong winds into one he doesn't need to use a rudder or even a drop skeg to control. >How about: > Airplanes have trim tabs. That's > all a rudder really does for a sea kayak. > Couldn't someone make something > minimal just to trim the boat to port or > starbord for wind? A little simple > something(s) without all the > cables, peddles, flopping mess of > rudders? Easy Rider tried this about 15 or 16 years ago, I believe they called it their True-Track system. A shock cord pulled the pivoting fin one way and a single line and a jam cleat held it in place against the shockcord's pull. It still had a big floppy (in the way) fin on the back of the boat, but I thought it was a step in the right direction. Their system didn't work very well (partly because of the flexibility of the shock cord--better for winds from one side than the other) and was not well received by paddlers. Easy Rider then went the next step and turned that same fin (that had originally just been a overstern drop skeg) into a full fledged foot controlled rudder very similar to what they use today. Personally, I would have worked to improve on the True-track system rather than turn it into a rudder as I thought an adjustable trim tab was the better concept (no floppy foot pedals among other things). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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