This last weekend I took my kayaking class out for their cold water lesson. The air temp high was 45, the water was at 40. And the class seemed to be very confident. We paddled 20 miles, mostly with the wind, crossing 3 lakes following the Pelican River in MN. Everything they had been taught was in the classroom, and a heated pool. As an instructor, we require a supervised cold water trip to pass the class. The class (having nearly a semester of lessons) picked out their own equipment from the lockers, all their safety equip, and selected their favorite boats the group largely honed in on the Scimitars, Shadows and Sea Lions. The class was to be graded on everything, total preparedness. We graded them on what clothing they selected, having heard a few cold water lectures. As well as overall paddle technique, use of the safety equipment and effectiveness of their self rescues. The avg. student selected 3mm wetsuits and wore 1mm wetsuit underwear beneath. Nylon swimsuits, polypro sweatshirts, synthetic/smartwool Longjohns. Booties with wool socks, fleece hats, and most wore drytops. Only 1 student selected a drysuit. At the end of the long paddle, students have to demonstrate their self/assisted rescue skills. They had to show at least two. Both could be self, 1 had to involve a wet exit. The results, advanced students overwhelmingly agreed it was far better to roll than to wet exit. An appropriate response. The weaker students found they were only able to roll in the pool. Giving comments like "I was under, setting up for a roll and I thought my head was going to explode from the shock". Only one person did a paddle float rescue (drysuited). He didn't care what the weather was like, he was just fine. The rest settled for the "quick and dirty T-X rescue/pump/ get me the hell out of the water theory". I noted an interesting difference between paddler sizes, I believe corelated to body fat. Comparably dressed larger "corn fed" males were easier to deal with in the water. They clambered back into their boats needing little assistance. The smaller, ahem, "petit" females were typically short of breath and close to a cold water induced panic. The females in question were arguably in "better" shape (track runners) vs the pudgy lineman males. Yet the males were calmer, and able to pull off more difficult rescues: Reenter/roll, etc. The females did have one advantage, being lighter, I could grab them and help pull them across my decking. so they could reenter their boats. This leads me to question... This difference directly compares a book I am currently reading: Peary's documentary about his trips to the North Pole, written 1890-1905. Peary compares body types of the ideal people for this trip. He notes how Eskimos are ideally suited for his expeditions, they are very strong and thick with body fat. In this day of get slim, and stay strong, I wonder are we neglecting our bodies need for an appropriate layer of fat? Without all of our technical gear, could we survive a freezing cold night sitting on the side of the river waiting for help? Just because we regularly practice cold water safety, can we really survive if we need to? I can only hope that my kayaking class learned the message of how dangerous it can be paddling unprepared. They were prepared, and experienced first hand coldwater immersion. I know that they will think twice before traveling on cold water without the proper gear. After some hot chocolate, ( a thermos in every boat) they were back in cheerful spirits. I hope fellow P'wisers practice their cold water as well. I plan on asking my doctor about my fitness, suitablility for cold water paddling. If you are an MD, please read on. Thanks Phil Huck huck_at_mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu thekayaker_at_yahoo.com I guess the reason I am so concerned about coldwater is that I do live in MN as the saying goes the water is either frozen or getting there. I live here, I paddle here, I should be prepared for life-here. I had no problems in the water, should I worry about that little layer of body fat? If I lose it will I be noticeably colder? My BMI is a clean 22. The charts say that I am at the upper limit of healthy people. Pro's and cons of lowering body fat? 5'8" tall, 31 in. waist, 39 inch chest, 145lbs. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I noted an interesting difference between paddler sizes, I believe > corelated to body fat. Comparably dressed larger "corn fed" males were > easier to deal with in the water. They clambered back into their boats > needing little assistance. The smaller, ahem, "petit" females were > typically short of breath and close to a cold water induced panic. The > females in question were arguably in "better" shape (track runners) vs the > pudgy lineman males. Yet the males were calmer, and able to pull off more > difficult rescues: Reenter/roll, etc. Ratio of surface area vs mass. Higher mass gives higher heat generating potential, ie, more muscle tissue flexing and burning those carbs. Add a wetsuit into the mix, and a stocky guy like me (5'8", 210lbs, 38" waist, 45" chest) can break a sweat under heavy exertion even in pretty cold water. Of course, this doesn't prevent that shocking sensation when you first hit the cold water.... vavavavvavavavavavavava > are we neglecting our bodies need for an appropriate layer of fat? Without > all of our technical gear, could we survive a freezing cold night sitting > on the side of the river waiting for help? I could, and have. Though sitting is unwise, stay active and you stay warm. Push ups work good for me. Sit-squats would also do good.. > I guess the reason I am so concerned about coldwater is that I do live in > MN as the saying goes the water is either frozen or getting there. I live > here, I paddle here, I should be prepared for life-here. I had no problems > in the water, should I worry about that little layer of body fat? If I > lose it will I be noticeably colder? My BMI is a clean 22. The charts say > that I am at the upper limit of healthy people. Pro's and cons of lowering > body fat? 5'8" tall, 31 in. waist, 39 inch chest, 145lbs. The charts and definition of "healthy" are medical things. Usually measured by mortality rates. IE, if body configuration A lives longer than body configuration B, then A is healthier. No accounting is taken of whether "B" can lift three times the weight "A" can, or whether "B" could swim a mile in 48F water and "A" would get hypothermia and die before even making it half way. FWIW, I don't object to folks who want to measure their health against a mortality table; as long as they don't object to folks like myself who couldn't care less about maximizing life span. [I could rant on this for a while... gak!] Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most marine mammals and penguins are equipped with a solid layer of blubber that retains body heat (and provides bouyancy). BTW, Alaskan eskimos (noted by Peary to be ideally suited for his arctic trips) eat blubber (even Crisco mixed with wild berries and sugar... "eskimo ice cream"). Seems reasonable to conclude a lean person would feel the effects of cold water sooner than a fatter one. I recall studies suggesting conditioned swimmers have a higher subcutaneous fat content than other athletes... the distribution of fat being regulated by the body to keep the swimmer warm. It's been a while since I read that, but might be something worth checking if you are interested. Karen > I noted an interesting difference between paddler sizes, I believe corelated > to body fat. Comparably dressed larger "corn fed" males were easier to deal > with in the water. They clambered back into their boats needing little > assistance. The smaller, ahem, "petit" females were typically short of breath > and close to a cold water induced panic. The females in question were arguably > in "better" shape (track runners) vs the pudgy lineman males. Yet the males > were calmer, and able to pull off more difficult rescues: Reenter/roll, etc. > The females did have one advantage, being lighter, I could grab them and help > pull them across my decking. so they could reenter their boats. > > This leads me to question... > This difference directly compares a book I am currently reading: Peary's > documentary about his trips to the North Pole, written 1890-1905. Peary > compares body types of the ideal people for this trip. He notes how Eskimos > are ideally suited for his expeditions, they are very strong and thick with > body fat. > In this day of get slim, and stay strong, I wonder are we neglecting our > bodies need for an appropriate layer of fat? > Without all of our technical gear, could we survive a freezing cold night > sitting on the side of the river waiting for help? > > Just because we regularly practice cold water safety, can we really survive if > we need to? > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
huck wrote: > > This last weekend I took my kayaking class out for their cold water lesson. > The air temp high was 45, the water was at 40. And the class seemed to be very > confident. We paddled 20 miles, mostly with the wind, crossing 3 lakes > following the Pelican River in MN. >(SNIP) > In this day of get slim, and stay strong, I wonder are we neglecting our > bodies need for an appropriate layer of fat? > Without all of our technical gear, could we survive a freezing cold night > sitting on the side of the river waiting for help? > > Just because we regularly practice cold water safety, can we really survive if > we need to? > You bring up an interesting question that I see all too often, atleast from where I stand, on this list. Why does all this great training stop here? Don't get me wrong. I think it is great, but think it should go a step or two more. You mention the proper gear and all, and how differant types of people react to the water temps. It is also drilled into everyones minds that we need to carry proper equimpment on our PFD. Agreed with here. However, wouldn't it be a good part of the training exercise to have AT LEAST SOME of the people see if they can use what they carry with them to, say, start a fire(loads of fun with cold fingers, even if you're good), maybe show that they could signal for help, or tell someone where they have washed up on shore. I notice that most of this training that is mentioned assumes that you can roll or get back into your kayak. That or just having XYZ in your PFD. That I feel is a good start, but real false security. I don't know about where you all paddle, but even on these inland lakes that I spend my time these days, even if I could call 911 the moment I had a problem, it would likely be several hours before anyone could get near me. Maybe with the population centers most paddle under there is a faster rescue time..? You wondered about sitting all night waiting on a rescue and how you would do. Why don't you test yourself. Better yet, prepare yourself so that if it ever happens that you can amuse yourself, with thoughts of your goofy screw up, and the ridicule from your paddling buddies. Spending the night out without a tent and sleeping bag doesn't have to be a life or death situation, but it needs to be planned and practiced. I've had the dumb luck to fall through "over flow" ice up in AK and spend -30+ zero night after that. My only concern was that my wife wasn't worried about me, and that all was OK back at the cabin. Lucky to survive? There is no luck at those temps, (well some)just planning for the worst. I guess this all leads up to the question. Why isn't this part of the training? Something you might think about for the next class. James > I can only hope that my kayaking class learned the message of how dangerous it > can be paddling unprepared. They were prepared, and experienced first hand > coldwater immersion. I know that they will think twice before traveling on > cold water without the proper gear. After some hot chocolate, ( a thermos in > every boat) they were back in cheerful spirits. > > I hope fellow P'wisers practice their cold water as well. > I plan on asking my doctor about my fitness, suitablility for cold water *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
magpi_at_transport.com writes: << BTW, Alaskan eskimos (noted by Peary to be ideally suited for his arctic trips) eat blubber (even Crisco mixed with wild berries and sugar... "eskimo ice cream"). >> They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. Evolution has given them some special traits for survival in their chosen place in this world. John LeBlanc O (____/_______) ~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~~ Bluecanoe2_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Heck, eating any liver would kill me! I don't eat filters, period. In the Navy we have a saying: In survival situations, the fat get skinny, the skinny die. : ) regards, Sluf Bluecanoe2_at_aol.com wrote: > magpi_at_transport.com writes: > > << BTW, Alaskan eskimos (noted by Peary to be ideally suited for his arctic > trips) eat blubber (even Crisco mixed with wild berries and sugar... "eskimo > ice cream"). >> > > They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. > > Evolution has given them some special traits for survival in their chosen > place in this world. > > John LeBlanc > O > (____/_______) > ~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~~ > Bluecanoe2_at_aol.com > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sounds like the Atkins Diet? -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Bluecanoe2_at_aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 9:29 AM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Coldwater test/bodyfat/future fitness magpi_at_transport.com writes: << BTW, Alaskan eskimos (noted by Peary to be ideally suited for his arctic trips) eat blubber (even Crisco mixed with wild berries and sugar... "eskimo ice cream"). >> They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. Evolution has given them some special traits for survival in their chosen place in this world. John LeBlanc O (____/_______) ~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~~ Bluecanoe2_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. |Evolution has given them some special traits for survival in their chosen |place in this world. | John LeBlanc Can you give some more info on this? I don't like liver, yuck, can't say that I hate it but its close. Since I'm not dying to run out an try this new culinary experience of Seal Liver and I'm sure the local SuperMarket will stock this wonderful item, is this stuff really deadly to us Southerners? Is it good wrapped in bacon? How is it prepared? Do we really wish to know the answers? 8-) Thanks... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > > |They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. > > |Evolution has given them some special traits for survival in their chosen > |place in this world. > > | John LeBlanc This reminds me of when Maligiaq, the Greenland kayak champion was in the Big Apple for the paddle around the Statue of Liberty. He would not do any of promised rolling demonstration until he got some beef jerky to chew on (The Boathouse had run out of seal meat). We quickly arranged for a beef jerky run to a local deli and this turned out to be the scariest moment he had in the States. One of our members drove him in a beat up yellow jeep across the highway, probably going in tne wrong direction and bouncing him through the steets of the Tribeca neighborhood in which the Boathouse is located. Maligiaq looked ashen on his return and for the rest of his stay kept talking about that scary ride. I scared him a bit when I drove his hostess's Jeep Cherokee around the city during their stay (she was wary of city traffic). New York drivers. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: [snip] > We quickly arranged for a beef jerky run to a local deli and this turned > out to be the scariest moment he had in the States. One of our members > drove him in a beat up yellow jeep across the highway, probably going in > tne wrong direction and bouncing him through the steets of the Tribeca > neighborhood in which the Boathouse is located. Maligiaq looked ashen > on his return and for the rest of his stay kept talking about that scary > ride. I scared him a bit when I drove his hostess's Jeep Cherokee > around the city during their stay (she was wary of city traffic). New > York drivers. :-) > > ralph diaz i'll bet that was funny ;-) we got stuck in a traffic jam driving him home once, and he said there were more cars in the jam than greenland has ... he also said they can't get their drivers license until they're 18. there aren't many roads there either ;-) mark -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. - English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:00:15 -0500 dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: >|They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. > <<snip>> Friends, if Eye have to eat seal liver or ANYTHING's liver to survive cold water ...well, this good, ole boy will just stay ankle deep in his swamps and bayous down here. Heck, my main paddling season is just now getting started. Most of the really mean mosquitos are dead; the night time temps are low 40's with high 70's during the day; day paddling has now become truly enjoyable and not just a field exercise in avoiding heat stroke or heat exhaustion. I have a thermometer left over from the swimming pool days, so I measured the water temp last Sunday before leaving the put-in. I'm not even going to tell you what it read, but about 45 minutes of paddling has me doing the "stretch and switch" with poly underwear to wind up with bare skin under my PFD ( ...yes, always !) I have tried to eat liver and will take my chances with the coldest of water any day. My mother-in-law ( a wonderful Cajun Momma, God rest her soul ...) once told me she could cook liver and I would not know it was liver ...SHE LIED ! In conclusion here ...if I tump over in cold water ( ...which I have done ! ...hey, it was at least pretty cold in THAT February ! ) I know I have a better than average, fighting chance of making it okay. With the liver ...well, just go ahead and divide up my gear ! ...adieu ...Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK Peyton, now 'fess up - do you eat that Cajun food "dirty rice"? Rumors are, there is liver intermixed. Natalie Galveston TX ----- Original Message ----- From: <gpwecho_at_juno.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Coldwater test/bodyfat/future fitness > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:00:15 -0500 dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: > > >|They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. > > > <<snip>> > > Friends, if Eye have to eat seal liver or ANYTHING's liver to survive > cold water ...well, this good, ole boy will just stay ankle deep in his > swamps and bayous down here. [snip] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>|They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. >> > <<snip>> Recently I read something about the disastrous consequences of a ballooning expedition to the North Pole which was badly outfitted and planned.. It was the one that Amundsen died while trying to effect a rescue of some of the personnel. The last group, with the balloon, had landed on a huge ice floe somewhere up there. By the time rescuers reached them they were all dead, not from the cold but from having eaten the livers of polar bears they'd shot for food. Recollections are dim now, but I recall that these livers are loaded with one of the vitamins, such as D or E which in high concentrations are fatal, but the victims didn't know that...... Anybody else remember this? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Pylka wrote: > > >>|They also eat seal liver that would kill you and me. > >> > > <<snip>> > Recently I read something about the disastrous consequences of a > ballooning expedition to the North Pole which was badly outfitted and > planned.. It was the one that Amundsen died while trying to effect a rescue > of some of the personnel. The last group, with the balloon, had landed on a > huge ice floe somewhere up there. By the time rescuers reached them they > were all dead, not from the cold but from having eaten the livers of polar > bears they'd shot for food. Recollections are dim now, but I recall that > these livers are loaded with one of the vitamins, such as D or E which in > high concentrations are fatal, but the victims didn't know that...... > Anybody else remember this? Not that story, but I have heard that Vitamin A concentrates in polar bears' livers since they're unquestionably at the top of the food chain up there. Saute up a nice slice of polar bear liver with onions and bacon and poof! yer dead of Vitamin A overdose. Of course, if I had a whole bear to eat, I'd probably start somewhere other than the liver. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>...snipped...By the time rescuers reached them they were all dead, not from the cold but from having eaten the livers of polar bears they'd shot for food. Recollections are dim now, but I recall that these livers are loaded with one of the vitamins, such as D or E which in high concentrations are fatal, but the victims didn't know that......Anybody else remember this? Polar bear livers are very high in vitamin A, which is one of the fat-soluble vitamins; in high doses it is toxic and even lethal. Regards, Leander leander_at_worldnet.att.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If I met a Polar Bear, I would probably not be the one ending up with dinner. > >Of course, if I had a whole bear to eat, I'd probably start somewhere >other than the liver. > >Steve >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/10/1999 6:34:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, whiterabbit_at_empowering.com writes: << If I met a Polar Bear, I would probably not be the one ending up with dinner. > >Of course, if I had a whole bear to eat, I'd probably start somewhere >other than the liver. > >Steve >> Yes, indeed. I'm sure polar bears are partial to rabbits, especially if they are a matching color. :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:05 PDT