In the warm months, I spend a considerable amount of time bicycling the roads of New Jersey. Compared with bicycling, sea kayaking seems a safe sport. I wear the requisite safety gear and use caution whenever I'm on my bike but there is a breed of automobile driver who seems to feel that bicyclist are trespassers on their turf. These make your average jetskier seem positively benign by comparison. My enthusiasm for the bicycle has motivated me to write A Will, something sea kayaking hasn't done. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/27/00 12:59:10 PM !!!First Boot!!!, stephen.bird_at_superaje.com writes: << When I did a similar session at the Canadian Canoe Symposium last August there was considerable interest in waivers and the liability of trip leaders. For example, would a volunteer trip leader who was (BCU) certified be held to a higher standard of care than a trip leader who was not certified? How good are waivers? Does it make a difference if the participant is young/old? How much pre-trip testing should take place to determine the skill level of the participant >> Stephen, I am sorely disappointed to learn that you will not be participating at the ECCKF in Charleston this year. I am sure that your class would have been well attended. The questions mentioned above are questions that many clubs and outfitters have asked many times. I have heard it expressed that the trained leader is the perceived expert and therefore held to a higher standard of care. The industry has no set standards and they are therefore subjective. Waivers are virtually useless. Win or lose a lawsuit can put a small operator out of business. You cannot deny participation based on age. I know 60 year olds with better endurance than 16 year olds. (and it is illegal) Misrepresentation of skills by participants is all to common. Often participants are in another state and book trips months in advance. It is easy to do a pretrip test for self rescue capabilities, but, how do you test someone to see if they can go fifteen or twenty miles? I would be surprised to find many outfitters with several seasons under their belts that could not look back on their early years and say, "Whew, we were lucky those first few years." Training is a double edged sword. You take training with the hope of providing a safer experience for your clients, while at the same time you are raising the standard of care which is expected of you. Once again, I believe that it comes down to motivation. If you are doing it for the dollar, than screening and standards don't matter much. I screen and refer potentials to the other shop if they do not accept my guidelines. I hope that they screen. If they don't, at least the customer has been made aware of some of the potential hazards from my screening. What else can an outfitter do? (question to P/W's) Considerate and constructive suggestions only, please. Thanks in advance, Bruce McCutcheon WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > Waivers are virtually useless. Win or lose a lawsuit can put a small > operator out of business. > > What else can an outfitter do? (question to P/W's) > Considerate and constructive suggestions only, please. > Based on the outcome of the most recent (actually, the only) WW rafting death on the Nantahala, having a waiver may or may not help you, but NOT having one is the kiss of death if there is an accident. In that incident, a girl on a school rafting trip fell out of a raft, was foot-entrapped, and drowned. From the reports I read, it seems likely that she was wearing her PFD too loose and that she attempted to stand in the current. She certainly had received the pre-trip safety instruction. Of course, no one wants to blame a victim, expecially a 16-y.o. girl. The judgment was against the school/teacher and the Nantahala Outdoor Center for not having provided the parent an opportunity to give informed consent via a waiver. AFAIK, and understand that I am relying on Internet reports, there was no allegation or admission of any on-the-water negligence. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:51:43 EST, you wrote: ><< When I did a similar session at the Canadian Canoe Symposium last August ><< there was considerable interest ... >I am sorely disappointed to learn that you will not be participating at >the ECCKF in Charleston this year. I am sure that your class would have been >well attended. Thank you for your kind words. I still plan on attending ECCKF this year, but time would not permit proper preparation and a good presentation. :-) Perhaps, as an alternative to a formal session, those interested in this topic could meet on the island Saturday afternoon at 3pm to chat about some of these liability issues? --- cheers, Stephen stephen.bird_at_superaje.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oooh. Don't say that waivers are useless, especially to your clients. When I worked as a raft guide for a company that ran 200 people a day, we would always have a smart person say "sure, I'll sign, but they don't hold up in court." If you, the guide, agree, then the waiver is less likely to hold up. Actually, they do hold up in court. Chase Van Gorder has been dedicating part of his law practice to this issue and has a bunch of articles online. Here is one link: http://www.vglaw.com/liability.html although the full index is at www.vglaw.com He also wrote How to Choose an Outfitter: http://www.onwatersports.com/tn/t/outfitter.html Maybe those will help both sides. Of course then there is the difference between showing negligence and gross negligence, etc... Andree Hurley On Water Sports - http://www.onwatersports.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:52:15 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Actually, they do hold up in court. They certainly do in Canada.... although it is a question of fact whether the person knew that they were signing a waiver or if it could be assumed. Another matter is "volenti non fit injuria" which is one of the three or four Latin phrases I know from law. In other words, if you take on the activity, then you assume the normal risks of that activity. >Chase Van Gorder has been dedicating part of his law practice to this >issue and has a bunch of articles online. .... Good references.... Chase is a Washington state lawyer, if memory serves me, with a ongoing interest in this topic. >Maybe those will help both sides. Of course then there is the difference >between showing negligence and gross negligence, etc... The distinction seems to be that the former is conduct which does not meet the standard required to protect others from unreasonable risk of harm, while the latter is a reckless or deliberate disregard of or indifference to the rights or safety of others. Got that? I registered today, so see you at ECCKF on Saturday at 3 pm on the "Island" where I'll be wearing either a t-shirt with the quote from Shakespeare, II Henry VI, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." or a bright red "Canada" t-shirt. I'm really looking forward to continuing this chat here or there.... --- cheers, Stephen stephen.bird_at_superaje.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't want to minimize the dangers of sea kayaking but the risk of dying in an automobile accident over the period of one year is 1 in 5000 if you live in an urban area of the US. I suspect that driving somewhere to go kayaking is the higher risk activity when compared to the kayaking. Strange how the risks we are familiar with are so easily discounted and how we tend to exaggerate new or unknown risks. Actually, given the potential hazards of sea kayaking (and they can be insidious) I'm surprised how few sea kayakers die in accidents especially given the recent popularity of sea kayaking among those not very outdoor oriented to begin with. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Actually, given the potential hazards of sea kayaking (and they can be > insidious) I'm surprised how few sea kayakers die in accidents especially > given the recent popularity of sea kayaking among those not very outdoor > oriented to begin with. > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com > without setting out a fleet of no paddlers into insidious conditions, may i say that i postulate that the relatively few sea kayaker deaths is due in a large part to well designed boats. i think that kayaks are very seaworthy so that with just a bit of common sense, death risks are greatly reduced. thanks for well designed boats, bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I wonder what clubs in the US do about potential liability for personal >injury. Our club here is currently going through a period of discussion >about how best to avoid problems. My take is:- >1. Be careful. You will be, but things go wrong anyway, so... >2. Agree on an exemption clause in the club's constitution excluding >liability, and ... Not a few clubs here in NJ are incorporated as 501C3 entities. There are a number of reasons for this; chief among them is the separation of club officers from the organization should there be litigation. Don't know how well that works, but it can't hurt. We also do not have trip leaders running a given event, but trip coordinators. Same reasons -- concerns about potential litigation. We also all sign waivers on an annual basis. The wording differs between clubs but again, the intent is the same. At least one club requires a waiver be signed by anyone participating in a club trip as a guest/nonmember. >3. Carry suitable insurance, as exemption clauses are not reliable when >litigation follows. Again, nearly all the clubs in NJ carry insurance -- rather large amounts in some cases. We also list some trips or events as ACA sanctioned in order to utilize their rather excellent insurance coverage for some events. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John I completely agree with you. I believe the original question was seeking the comparative risk in recreational activities. Sea-kayaking is at the lower end. The hazard in cycling is the humans in cars. A recent incident in my area involved the death of one, maiming of another (leg lost) and injuries to several others when a woman intentionally ran down a group of cyclists. I had occasion to meet this rather confused person. A co-worker was off work for a year when an inattentive person opened their car door on the traffic side at just the wrong moment. Sea kayaking has its risks. The level of risk taken is chosen by the paddler. One can choose to paddle a quiet estuary or cross an ocean through storms. I'm no kayaking expert and I choose my risks accordingly. I have been dealing with confused, insane and criminal humans for over 25 years. I'm so familiar with adrenal rushes, I regard them as a tool. I'll take the (limited) predictability of weather, current and tide over human behavior anytime. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Myers" <jmyers_at_longbranch.k12.nj.us> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:11 AM Compared with bicycling, sea kayaking seems a safe > sport. I wear the requisite safety gear and use caution whenever I'm on my > bike but there is a breed of automobile driver who seems to feel that > bicyclist are trespassers on their turf. These make your average jetskier > seem positively benign by comparison. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with Bob and John. There is a saying among pilots: "There may be bold pilots, but there aren't any OLD Bold pilots." Insurance Underwriters considered a helicopter to be inherently riskier than a big cargo airplane and charged a premium for "Higher Risk". Gee, I wonder why? Are we "Risk Adverse" or "Cautious"? Are we: Risk Takers or Crazy? Some would consider others on this list as very risky, adventuresome, out on a limb or ?????? We make the judgement as to the amount of risk we, personally, are willing to take or expose ourselves to. Regardless of our acceptable level of risk we should endeavor not to put others property or person at risk by our actions. Either members of our paddling party and/or a rescue party and take responsibility for our decisions. Risk is a very subjective issue and personal to each of us. When paddling with a group we should not be afraid to speak out to the stronger members that we are getting in over our heads or simply don't feel comfortable with the conditions. Certainly not afraid of embarrassing ourselves in front of more experienced paddlers. That is what I consider an avoidable and unnecessary risk - group dynamics that ultimately put all at risk. Fred E. Thomas At 05:50 PM 2/28/2000 -0800, you wrote: >John > >I completely agree with you. I believe the original question was seeking >the comparative risk in recreational activities. Sea-kayaking is at the >lower end. The hazard in cycling is the humans in cars. A recent incident >in my area involved the death of one, maiming of another (leg lost) and >injuries to several others when a woman intentionally ran down a group of >cyclists. I had occasion to meet this rather confused person. A co-worker >was off work for a year when an inattentive person opened their car door on >the traffic side at just the wrong moment. > >Sea kayaking has its risks. The level of risk taken is chosen by the >paddler. One can choose to paddle a quiet estuary or cross an ocean through >storms. I'm no kayaking expert and I choose my risks accordingly. I have >been dealing with confused, insane and criminal humans for over 25 years. >I'm so familiar with adrenal rushes, I regard them as a tool. I'll take the >(limited) predictability of weather, current and tide over human behavior >anytime. > >Bob > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Myers" <jmyers_at_longbranch.k12.nj.us> > >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:11 AM >Compared with bicycling, sea kayaking seems a safe > > sport. I wear the requisite safety gear and use caution whenever I'm on my > > bike but there is a breed of automobile driver who seems to feel that > > bicyclist are trespassers on their turf. These make your average jetskier > > seem positively benign by comparison. > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:50:59 -0800, CA Kayaker said: >> <snip> Are we: Risk Takers or Crazy? Some would consider others on this list as very risky, adventuresome, out on a limb or ??????>> I get a lot of flack from my co-workers about my risky exploits on the sea, yet I hear of these same guys who call me names, out every weekend picking up different women from the bars, etc, and having unprotected sex. And, the women who malign me most, smoke their heads off, yet decry my risky behavior. Go figure! >>We make the judgement as to the amount of risk we, personally, are willing to take or expose ourselves to. Regardless of our acceptable level of risk we should endeavor not to put others property or person at risk by our actions. Either members of our paddling party and/or a rescue party and take responsibility for our decisions.>> Good point Fred. This is a tough one for me, personally. If I go off and kill myself, so be it. But placing rescue personal at risk isn't mature or appreciated. I have not figured out where the balance point occurs where one goes beyond imposing acceptable possible risks to outside agencies. In my Trial Island incident, I was confident in my abilty to extract myself from trouble, but some old lady with a telescope spotted me disapear into a huge overfall wave, so called the authorites. (I later found out she did not see me struggling in the water, she simply believed I had instantly vanished and was concerened when nothing came out the other end). I really didn't want rescue people out there, and did not summon the rescue authorities, but you can't plan everything. >> Risk is a very subjective issue and personal to each of us.>> It sure is. I paddle with B.A.D written all over me (Balls, Attitude, Determination). One tries to mellow out and sometimes finds a degree of success from time to time, but we all have different tolerances to risk, and I don't think anyone can determine a formula or a sea-rating system to objectify the equation. >> When paddling with a group we should not be afraid to speak out to the stronger members that we are getting in over our heads or simply don't feel comfortable with the conditions. Certainly not afraid of embarrassing ourselves in front of more experienced paddlers. That is what I consider an avoidable and unnecessary risk - group dynamics that ultimately put all at risk.>> Now you are on to something, Fred. We have had this discussion before on PW. I was hoping SK Magazine would get the Storm Island story out soon, as it centers on this issue of group dynamics and risk. It is getting to the point where I may just post my version if something isn't resolved this year with the story's publishing. But I digress. What I wanted to mention specifically, is an incident last year involving two paddlers. The first one was one who I ran a story about in SK Mag a couple of years ago. He was a novice back then, and came around a point of land into six foot breaking seas, bailed, and repeatedly attempted partially successful paddle float reentries. (Ralph did an excellent job recently, posting how easy it is for novices to make those kinds of failures where they don't anticipate ahead.) I stop in to see this fellow every once and awhile. He did not do much paddling after nearly loosing his life those two years ago. I kept encouraging him to get out more with other people. He finally did. Last time I spoke with him, he had another tale to tell. He was out with a newer paddling friend who had similar experience levels. They were returning from an overnight paddle, across a fairly open piece of water between the US and Canadian border. Bob wasn't too happy about leaving shore. He indicated to his new friend that wind was predicted for the afternoon, and given the off-season values for that time of year, if the weather picked up earlier (as it often does in our difficult-to-predict area of the Pacific Northwest) then it could impede an efficient crossing. Why not wait. The other fellow had commitments back in town. Bob was upset, because he had specifically indicated that an open-schedule should be allowed for. As the two got further out, passing the half-way point finally, the wind picked up dramatically. The area around James Island is well known for tide movement. Wind/tide opposition creates steep seas in very, very short order. Well, within minutes, Bob's new buddy went over. His "pool-roll" failed, and out he came. Bob was able to render quick assistance, as he had "purposely kept close" in his words. Getting him back in proved a bit difficult, given the lack of proper immersion apparel. Eventually, Bob got him in and back to shore, where there was no option but to wait it out another day. A warm fire helped them to regain their spirits, but not before Bob (a big x-military bloke) swore up and down and all over the guy. Bob told me he vowed that day, to never let himself be talked into a dangerous situation again. He already made one mistake with himself the previous year and then found himself in the pages of a kayak magazine (which he only agreed to, BTW, as I promised him it would more than likely prevent similar near-tragedies or worse). Bob matter-of-factly mentioned to me as I left his home, that in future, he would obviously try to discourage someone from doing something he considered risky behavior, but that if push came to shove again, the other individual or individuals were welcome to go "kill themselves". Bob would remain on the beach, awaiting a wider window of opportunity and less risk, because Bob knows what it is like to be in cold water and deep trouble. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who has a million posts he like to do, but is sooooo busy - hey, that way I don't get flamed. Smart guy, I am!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > [snip] Last > time I spoke with him, he had another tale to tell. He was out with a newer > paddling friend who had similar experience levels. They were returning from > an overnight paddle, across a fairly open piece of water [on] the US and > Canadian border. Bob wasn't too happy about leaving shore. He indicated to > his new friend that wind was predicted for the afternoon, and given the > off-season values for that time of year, if the weather picked up earlier > (as it often does in our difficult-to-predict area of the Pacific > Northwest) then it could impede an efficient crossing. Why not wait. > > The other fellow had commitments back in town. Bob was upset, because he > had specifically indicated that an open-schedule should be allowed for. As > the two got further out, passing the half-way point finally, the wind > picked up dramatically. The area around James Island is well known for tide > movement. Wind/tide opposition creates steep seas in very, very short > order. Well, within minutes, Bob's new buddy went over. His "pool-roll" > failed, and out he came. Bob was able to render quick assistance, as he had > "purposely kept close" in his words. Getting him back in proved a bit > difficult, given the lack of proper immersion apparel. Eventually, Bob got > him in and back to shore, where there was no option but to wait it out > another day. A warm fire helped them to regain their spirits, but not > before Bob (a big x-military bloke) swore up and down and all over the guy. > > Bob told me he vowed that day, to never let himself be talked into a > dangerous situation again. [snip] Bob would remain on the beach, awaiting a > wider window of opportunity and less risk, because Bob knows what it is like > to be in cold water and deep trouble. Doug's description of Bob's experience makes me wonder if the "Gotta Get Home" syndrome is not a major cause of sea kayaking accidents. IIRC, Doug's Storm Island incident could be attributable to this, and I remember a fatality case out of Whittier in Alaska definitely due to the syndrome. Others have anecdotes in this direction? (I do not, thank heavens, though I have sat on the beach watching it storm many times -- I paddle with chickens. Hmmmmm. Maybe that should be the Paddlewise slogan? <g>) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Doug's description of Bob's experience makes me wonder if the "Gotta Get Home" > syndrome is not a major cause of sea kayaking accidents. IIRC, Doug's Storm > Island incident could be attributable to this, and I remember a fatality case > out of Whittier in Alaska definitely due to the syndrome. > > Others have anecdotes in this direction? (I do not, thank heavens, though I > have sat on the beach watching it storm many times -- I paddle with chickens. > Hmmmmm. Maybe that should be the Paddlewise slogan? <g>) The Gotta Get There or Home Syndrome has accounted for a goodly number of kayaking fatalities and others as well. Witness JFK Jr's fateful flight last June. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Others have anecdotes in this direction? (I do not, thank heavens, though I > have sat on the beach watching it storm many times -- I paddle with chickens. > Hmmmmm. Maybe that should be the Paddlewise slogan? <g>) > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR Chickens or as the minnor league baseball team is named, after a major contribution from the US eastcoast, giant chicken producer (Frank Perdue) Paddlewise ShoreBirds, bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gotta Get Home - Three micro stories - (All set on southern half of San Francisco Bay) 1. Last October. Weather nearly cancelled a paddle as an approaching storm brought strong winds. We went ahead with the paddle but stayed to protected areas. Of 6 paddlers, 2 went back after 1 mile. 2 more "macho" types went out to the edge of the Bay to surf the storm. 1 very skilled lady and myself (with only a few months experience then) and I completed the paddle. With 1 mile to go to, the winds became fierce. The waves coming out of side channels seemed to explode against the forward starboard quarter of my kayak. The lady called for a break. She asked some hikers passing by if there was a place she could catch a cab nearby. I thought that was very subtle, very smooth. There was no way the cab was for her; she wanted to give me a easy way to back out of completing the paddle, without looking like a wimp. I hung on for the final mile anyhow, but honestly that was a great way deal with the situation. 2. Last month. I paddled about 7 miles from Palo Alto to Alviso. The wind became very gusty and very unpredictable. The direction was all over the compass. As I got back to the open bay with 4 miles back to the dock the wind seemed to go nuts. I turned the boat around and headed back to the wide slough up to Alviso. I called my wife to pick me up. Can I paddle in 15-20 MPH winds? Yes. Can I do so while not knowing which way the next gust is coming from? Probably. Can I have fun in that situation? Hell, no. It isn't what I like. 3. Last week. Paddling with 2 very experienced people and little me. As we left the dock it was getting windy with a storm predicted. (Every d**n weekend lately). As we rounded the first point into open Bay waters, the whitecaps and spray were everywhere ahead with thunderheads on the horizon. I shouted out, "I'm going back." I thought the other 2 would go on, but they chose to join me and do a very short wimpy paddle in the little harbor and nature preserve. One of them told me he was glad I bagged it because it would not have been fun out there. It seems to me like you have to stand ready to bag a paddle, change your plans, wait things out, --OR-- take really big risks. Some people love the challenging conditions, the more thrill the better. Others, and there are lots of us, don't mind a modest challenge but are there for exercise, wildlife viewing, photography, peace of mind away from the city, and a chance to look at something other than a 17 inch monitor. You have to know who you are. "To thine own self be true." YMMV. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: >Doug's description of Bob's experience makes me wonder if the "Gotta Get Home" >syndrome is not a major cause of sea kayaking accidents. <snip>I remember a fatality case >out of Whittier in Alaska definitely due to the syndrome. > >Others have anecdotes in this direction? Nothing specific, but I wanted to point out that the "GGH" syndrome is well known to have been responsible for any number of small aircraft crashes (documented), and probably untold thousands of automobile fatalities. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think so. One of my favorites was in Baja - we arrived at our put-in on a nice day, and the next day a big storm began. After hiking everywhere and running out of things to do, on of the clients was so mad and said something like - I'm training to climb Mt. McKinely and if wind is the element in Baja, then we should be paddling in the wind. I'm sure anyone who has guided groups has had to be firm to make sure people didn't convince them to go into a situation that could be bad for someone's health.. Andree Hurley Viewit Dot Com - ICQ# 27469637 On Water Sports - http://www.onwatersports.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Volin wrote, "... the 'GGH' syndrome is well known to have been responsible for any number of small aircraft crashes(documented), and probably untold thousands of automobile fatalities." >From personal experience as a guilty party while flying Navy aircraft and later as a Navy Safety Officer and accident investigator reviewing the crashes of those who, unlike me, didn't get away with what I did, it's a real, measurable, and, unfortunately predictable phenomenon in Naval Aviation. It costs a lot of lives and national resources every year --- lots less than when I was flying, 'cause these kids are smarter than we were, and they operate in a more rational culture than we did. But it still happens, and it's still predictable --- post-deployment, holiday weekends, major personal events --- too often. For a paddling anecdote, I was out with a group of six experienced paddlers on an ANorAK weekend in Hampton, Virginia several years ago. We got into some very nasty clapotis which developed, with some tidal changes, into some serious haystack development over rising bottom terrain and reefs. As probably the least experienced paddler out there, and the one whose low volume Pintail was getting eaten by the developing 'stacks, I finally and loudly voiced concern (after doing an unplanned endo) that we really ought to get the hell out of there, and was virtually run over by the other six --- all of whom were just waiting for someone to yell "uncle" --- in an attempt to get headed back to the beach. (And, yes --- for our distaff PaddleWisers --- all participants were male.) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Bob told me he vowed that day, to never let himself be talked into a > dangerous situation again. Doug's tale of what happened to this fellow is a classic as is the guy's resolve not to get caught like that again. Back about 10 years ago, I saw a wonderful display of courage by a paddler under pressure to go out under less than favorable conditions. It was a listed club trip in Connecticut on a cold October morning. The fellow running it was fairly new at kayaking (although now he is one of the stellar rollers on the East Coast and has made a big name for himself in rodeo and trick whitewater paddling). Conditions were incredibly windy as about 4 or 5 paddlers showed up. The wind was so fierce that it seemed to be bending over the masts of sailboats in the marina we intended to launch from. And it was an off shore wind blowing away from the land into Long Island Sound. The fellow decided to discuss calling off the trip. But among the 5 or 6 paddlers was a high-risk taker paddler who had done some phenomenal solo paddling trips in rugged Northeast waters. He balked saying we should go ahead. He started calling the trip organizer a wimp and berated him up and down for his lack of manhood and all that sort of stuff. The cocksure paddler tried to get some of the paddlers to join him to take the trip anyway. The organizer was a fellow who had a very soft voice and manner to him (I remember that when he had called a year earlier to go on a Manhattan circumnavigation trip the leader had turned him down thinking the fellow sounded young and unsure; I had conversations with both of them later and found this out). But he stood his ground and said this trip is off. That display has stayed with me til this day. I call it "The Live To Paddle Another Day" approach to kayaking. If you don't like the conditions, turn around and do something else. On that particular day there didn't seem to be any other paddling options within a reasonable distance. But I have applied the above approach in similar circumstances to go paddle less of a trip in more protected waters. Whenever I plan a trip, generally I have a fallback place to paddle if conditions are not right at the planned site. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thought provoking to say the least. Get home-itis is nothing new. A few years ago (more than I care to admit), I was a young co-pilot and my Pilot-In-Command insisted on returning home even though the forecast in the mountain passes was real bad. I couldn't out rank him, but I let him know my concerns. Well, we ended up sitting down in a elderly lady's front yard. Thank goodness she was hard of hearing and the noise didn't bother her. It sure upset her cows. Nothing is so important that one's safety should be placed at risk. I would rather be late than dead any day. Thanks Fred At 12:19 AM 2/29/2000 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:50:59 -0800, CA Kayaker said: > > >> <snip> Are we: Risk Takers or Crazy? Some would >consider others on this list as very risky, adventuresome, out on a limb or >??????>> > >I get a lot of flack from my co-workers about my risky exploits on the sea, >yet I hear of these same guys who call me names, out every weekend picking >up different women from the bars, etc, and having unprotected sex. And, the >women who malign me most, smoke their heads off, yet decry my risky >behavior. Go figure! > > >>We make the judgement as to the amount of risk we, personally, are >willing to take or expose ourselves to. Regardless of our acceptable level >of risk we should endeavor not to put others property or person at risk by >our actions. Either members of our paddling party and/or a rescue party >and take responsibility for our decisions.>> > >Good point Fred. This is a tough one for me, personally. If I go off and >kill myself, so be it. But placing rescue personal at risk isn't mature or >appreciated. I have not figured out where the balance point occurs where >one goes beyond imposing acceptable possible risks to outside agencies. In >my Trial Island incident, I was confident in my abilty to extract myself >from trouble, but some old lady with a telescope spotted me disapear into a >huge overfall wave, so called the authorites. (I later found out she did >not see me struggling in the water, she simply believed I had instantly >vanished and was concerened when nothing came out the other end). I really >didn't want rescue people out there, and did not summon the rescue >authorities, but you can't plan everything. > > >> Risk is a very subjective issue >and personal to each of us.>> > >It sure is. I paddle with B.A.D written all over me (Balls, Attitude, >Determination). One tries to mellow out and sometimes finds a degree of >success from time to time, but we all have different tolerances to risk, >and I don't think anyone can determine a formula or a sea-rating system to >objectify the equation. > > >> When paddling with a group we should not be >afraid to speak out to the stronger members that we are getting in over our >heads or simply don't feel comfortable with the conditions. Certainly not >afraid of embarrassing ourselves in front of more experienced >paddlers. That is what I consider an avoidable and unnecessary risk - >group dynamics that ultimately put all at risk.>> > >Now you are on to something, Fred. We have had this discussion before on >PW. I was hoping SK Magazine would get the Storm Island story out soon, as >it centers on this issue of group dynamics and risk. It is getting to the >point where I may just post my version if something isn't resolved this >year with the story's publishing. But I digress. > >What I wanted to mention specifically, is an incident last year involving >two paddlers. The first one was one who I ran a story about in SK Mag a >couple of years ago. He was a novice back then, and came around a point of >land into six foot breaking seas, bailed, and repeatedly attempted >partially successful paddle float reentries. (Ralph did an excellent job >recently, posting how easy it is for novices to make those kinds of >failures where they don't anticipate ahead.) > >I stop in to see this fellow every once and awhile. He did not do much >paddling after nearly loosing his life those two years ago. I kept >encouraging him to get out more with other people. He finally did. Last >time I spoke with him, he had another tale to tell. He was out with a newer >paddling friend who had similar experience levels. They were returning from >an overnight paddle, across a fairly open piece of water between the US and >Canadian border. Bob wasn't too happy about leaving shore. He indicated to >his new friend that wind was predicted for the afternoon, and given the >off-season values for that time of year, if the weather picked up earlier >(as it often does in our difficult-to-predict area of the Pacific >Northwest) then it could impede an efficient crossing. Why not wait. > >The other fellow had commitments back in town. Bob was upset, because he >had specifically indicated that an open-schedule should be allowed for. As >the two got further out, passing the half-way point finally, the wind >picked up dramatically. The area around James Island is well known for tide >movement. Wind/tide opposition creates steep seas in very, very short >order. Well, within minutes, Bob's new buddy went over. His "pool-roll" >failed, and out he came. Bob was able to render quick assistance, as he had >"purposely kept close" in his words. Getting him back in proved a bit >difficult, given the lack of proper immersion apparel. Eventually, Bob got >him in and back to shore, where there was no option but to wait it out >another day. A warm fire helped them to regain their spirits, but not >before Bob (a big x-military bloke) swore up and down and all over the guy. > >Bob told me he vowed that day, to never let himself be talked into a >dangerous situation again. He already made one mistake with himself the >previous year and then found himself in the pages of a kayak magazine >(which he only agreed to, BTW, as I promised him it would more than likely >prevent similar near-tragedies or worse). Bob matter-of-factly mentioned to >me as I left his home, that in future, he would obviously try to discourage >someone from doing something he considered risky behavior, but that if push >came to shove again, the other individual or individuals were welcome to go >"kill themselves". Bob would remain on the beach, awaiting a wider window >of opportunity and less risk, because Bob knows what it is like to be in >cold water and deep trouble. > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd (who has a million posts he like to do, but is sooooo busy - >hey, that way I don't get flamed. Smart guy, I am!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote: >A recent incident in my area involved the death of one, maiming of another (leg lost) and >injuries to several others when a woman intentionally ran down a group of >cyclists. That's pretty scary. I'm a cyclist as well, and yes I do still get annoyed when I see someone on a bicycle riding side by side with another cyclist on a busy road or just being inconsiderate to traffic. BUT I remember that even though I am annoyed, that person is another human being who is completely unprotected when compared to me in my 3,000 lb car. Being inconvenienced isn't worth killing someone for so I give them some room. Probably the main reason I get annoyed by inconsiderate cyclists is that they're giving all cyclists a bad rap. So when it's my turn to be on the road I'm getting yelled at, having things thrown at me, and being run off the road because of the actions of some jerk. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> That's pretty scary. I'm a cyclist as well, and yes I do still get annoyed > when I see someone on a bicycle riding side by side with another cyclist on > a busy road or just being inconsiderate to traffic. BUT I remember that > even though I am annoyed, that person is another human being who is > completely unprotected when compared to me in my 3,000 lb car. Being > inconvenienced isn't worth killing someone for so I give them some room. > That is scary Joe but I know the feeling. I was in Yellowstone NP about fifteen years ago, alone, taking the long loop drive through the park and came upon a lone cyclist right in the middle of the right lane. I had to slow down to his speed as I couldn't pass since the road was curvy and hilly; essentially a no passing road. So I follow this jerk for a few miles hoping he'll move to the right and let me pass (he has a helmet mirror so knows I'm there). I toot the horn a couple of times. No reaction, so I move up about 10 feet from his tail and toot again. He flips me the bird and I have this urge just to run him over. I haven't seen another car for an hour and I'm thinking I could probably get away with it. Some rational thought returns a few seconds later and I pulled over to the side, nauseous with the adrenalin of anger. I still have nightmares to this day of what I found myself possibly capable of doing in the heat of the moment. Or I should say, nightmares that the thought of killing another human being because of their stupid arrogance ever entered my head. Talk about risk! This arrogant, inconsiderate cyclist may be just a stain on the road for all I know if someone a lot less stable than I am has ever met up with him. I don't get it (sorry if this is a bit off topic), but are cyclists like the mouse that fell into the vat of beer and came up saying "now where's that damn cat". -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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