------ You need advice about your relationship, not about boats. ------ Actually, I wouidn't trade my girlfriend for all the boats in the world. :-) The timing just caught her by surprise since I had mentioned May or June as my "target" date, but when I saw I could get a $300 discount by buying now, I jumped at the chance. Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Peter: Our totally subjective advice is to get two singles if you can afford it. We had originally considered a double, but now that we have taken kayak lessons we love the individuality and learning the skills involved in the singles. It is hard for us to conceive of being in a double, particularly when going through surf, or dealing with waves, etc. Although I'm sure this is a learnable skill as well. As I see you are considering folders (and here I venture, with trepidation, into Ralph's territory), and therefore perhaps traveling is an issue for you, there are several "one-bag" folding singles on the market (Folbot Aleut, all Feathercraft singles, and Nautiraid 14; I'm not sure about the new Klepper Alu-Lite). Ralph? And of course, Peter, if she's not really dedicated to kayaking.... :) All the best, Josh in Ra`anana (who is waiting for Omer to return from Greece with the kayaks so we can get in the water again, darnit!) At 08:19 06/03/00 , you wrote: >I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get >the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a >single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. >(At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double >is 8 kilos heavier than the single. > >Any thoughts (especially from couples)? > >Peter > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** ============================================================================== Dr. Joshua Teitelbaum, Research Fellow Tel: [972] 3-640-6448 Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and Fax: [972] 3-641-5802 African Studies Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 69978 Israel E-mail:teitelba_at_ccsg.tau.ac.il www.dayan.org ============================================================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter - RE: Sinlges vs doubles for couples - I know that my wife was never willing to join me when I sailed, and she was never too eager to go out in the doubles canoe, but she loves to float around in her solo kayak while I paddle. She's even gone on a few short trips with me, and she's enjoyed them very much. She likes to be independent but nearby. It seems to me that paddling a double has the potential to make a couple either great friends or mortal enemies. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Not to impugn anyone's girlfriend/boyfriend, but I have seen something like this happen: 1. GF: "I want to come along and share this experience with you." 2. Paddler buys double. 3. Paddler and GF go out together some. 4. Paddler and GF get married. 5. Wife never paddles again. 6. Paddler paddles double solo. Don't know what the moral is, except don't expect to make a paddler out of someone who really doesn't like it. And don't necessarily believe your GF or BF really wants to paddle, just because he/she want to go with you. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:17 AM 3/6/00 -0500, Bhansen97_at_aol.com wrote: >Peter - RE: Sinlges vs doubles for couples - I know that my wife was never >willing to join me when I sailed, and she was never too eager to go out in >the doubles canoe, but she loves to float around in her solo kayak while I >paddle. She's even gone on a few short trips with me, and she's enjoyed them >very much. She likes to be independent but nearby. My wife hasn't really been interested in paddling a solo kayak but she loves going tandem in our canoe. > >It seems to me that paddling a double has the potential to make a couple >either great friends or mortal enemies. The first time my wife (then, my girlfriend) paddled together it was in a Keowee II on an easy two hour trip in the maritime forest on the Outer Banks. I didn't have much experience and the short boat required that we stayed in sync or we'd be banging paddles. It didn't go well. Since then I've learned how to paddle and we bought a canoe. She really likes the canoe and both of us are improving our canoeing skills everytime we go out. We recently went out in a tandem sit-on-top and the experience was much better than the first time, so much so, that she actually suggested that the next boat I build could be a tandem kayak (she still has no interest in paddling solo). There were a few reasons that the recent tandem paddling experience was positive. I have a lot more experience so I could keep us going on track a lot easier. She also has a more intuitive water sense now because of the experience in the canoe. From that I would suggest that one the the best ways to ensure a positive tandem paddling experience is to take a lesson. Just having a general sense of how much paddle to apply on which side, and in which direction will help a lot. Two completely inexperience paddlers in a tandem boat will have a difficult time. The second reason we had a better time paddling the tandem boat is that it was longer and we didn't have to worry about banging our paddles together. Those short boats just make it that much more difficult. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you can afford it buy two separate kayaks. If not, offer to chip in to help your girlfriend buy herself one. I was presented with the same problem and ended up with two singles. When I go with my fiancé' I have to be patient and learn to go slower so that she can keep up. I also have to be very attentive to the conditions as I worry about her skill level. Although we did take a couple of classes together she doesn't seem all that concerned with learning all the skills - and God forbid she practice them. But then again, she's very happy just going out only when it's nice and warm (air and water) with no wind. I imagine that if we had a double I'd end up doing 80% of the paddling. On the other hand I really enjoy being able to go out on my own and not be hindered by paddling a double by myself. If you're serious about kayaking I would imagine that you're going to be miserable paddling a double by yourself. I think that someday I'd like to build a wooden double, but until then I'll stick to two singles. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have never paddled a double, but perhaps an extrapolation from bicycling is not that much out of order. When my wife and I decided to try biking we considered a tandem. We rented one and hated it. It's very difficult/uncomfortable to communicate with someone who is directly behind you. On separate bikes we can ride side by side, much of the time, and talk to each other quite easily. When paddling with others I find that when we want to converse we always end up side by side about 6-8 feet apart so our paddles don't interfere but then we can speak easily and point out things to each other with ease. It's probably more expensive, but I think that is the way I would go if my wife showed _any_ interest in paddling. I may go so far as to invest in one of John Winter's designs, the trimaran kayak, Tribalance to see if an almost totally untippy boat can draw her out onto the calm flat water we get so often in Monterrey, Santa Cruz and Elkhorn Slough. If it turns out it's a failure with her I might keep it for photography, fishing and diving and replace my SOT with a regular decked boat for my other kayaking. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, Peter - coming into our new location I had a double Klepper and happily used it together with my wife. She just liked being taken around, paddling when *she* wanted. After (1) some occasional quarreling (mostly coordination of strokes) and - (2) besides this - myself most time being out without my wife I decides to buy a used single, too. And, since we have three kids (15/11/6 then) I had a 2nd single for my wife. So everything was there to paddle together - theoretically. For a while we still went paddling together - I liked it very much. But as my physical condition got more and more improved by practicing when I had some time (and my wife couldnt or wouldnt go) it became the longer the more frustrating for my wife. So now she is jogging (and says, she likes it much more to move herself this way), our kids interests have changed (19/15/11 now) and most time I am out alone. The double some time ago has been sold (but there is a new - really old from the 50ies - one waiting to be restored) and the 2nd single one will be sold soon. So what I learned: Murphys law ("What can go wrong will go wrong.") works. Specially when you are not too sensitive as I seemed to have been considering what my wife really needed. - And it takes time to talk, to watch, lots of patience and waiting for one or the other if you really want to reach the same goal with your partner. And besides this: Interests may change, which (sometimes painfully) has to be respected. So after all I really wouldnt know to tel you what to do - except being sensitive towards what she really wants (paddle or spend some time near to you in a boat?) and be *very* patient. I´m not sure whether this helps - have a try. Best to both of you, Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Glenn Stauffer [mailto:stauffer_at_swarthmore.edu] Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 8:36 AM To: Dr. Peter Rand; Paddling >Get the single. When your girlfriend feels like she might want to go along, >rent a boat for her until she actually shows that she enjoys kayaking. Good advice. But it'll be a tough one to pull off when she starts batting those eyelashes at you and looking all sad. Good Luck! Let us know how it turns out. Joe - (The power women have over men just amazes me.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Before buying an expensive folding double (or any kind of double kayak at all) why not try renting one for a few day trips in varying conditions. You'll quickly get a feel for whether or not the two of you will enjoy paddling in the same boat. If I were ever to lose my mind and buy a double the sequence would go as follows - girlfriend, double, alone.<grin> Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Before buying our Feathercraft Klondike double, my husband and I rented singles on several occasions. I found it very difficult to keep up and I would tire sooner. In a double we can use our combined energy to paddle greater distances. One can rest (usually me) while the other paddles (usually him). I'm not saying it is all marital bliss, but I like having him within hearing distance, especially when I want to yell at him. On the other hand, I am sure my husband would not enjoy paddling our double alone. It is much too heavy and slow. The best of all worlds in my opinion is one double and one single. Whatever you decide -- try before you buy. After riding a tandem bike with my husband one time, and only for a short distance, I vowed never to ride one again. Your girlfriend might feel the same way after paddling a double with you. Good luck! -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Peter Rand [mailto:h9752220_at_botanix.wu-wien.ac.at] Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 1:19 AM To: Paddling Subject: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Just put a down payment on a folding kayak at a local boat show - the Klepper Aerius expedition (I was shocked that the Klepper rep had never heard of Ralph :-) ). I was planning to get a single, since my girlfriend never expressed the slightest interest in joining me for outings, but as I was filling out the paperwork she got visibly nervous and said well, maybe she would like to join me for outings after all. Oops... The dealer was pleasant and said I could have till 20th March to make up my mind on whether I want a single or a double, and invited me to his shop to check out the different models. I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. (At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double is 8 kilos heavier than the single. Any thoughts (especially from couples)? Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 03/06/2000 2:11:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, h9752220_at_botanix.wu-wien.ac.at writes: << I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. (At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double is 8 kilos heavier than the single. Any thoughts (especially from couples)? >> Yeah, don't break up with the girlfriend. All that money for a double that you will probably use solo most of the time. There's an art to paddling double. You have to keep in synch so your paddles aren't clacking. Easier to paddle double with a rudder otherwise you go round and round in circles (blush). There was an article in Sea Kayaker about three (?) years ago on the cons of paddling double. Divorce, for example. Well, it wasn't quite that bad, but many couples have ended up buying two singles. Sandy Kramer (single!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yeah, don't break up with the girlfriend. All that money for a double that >you will probably use solo most of the time. There's an art to paddling >double. You have to keep in synch so your paddles aren't clacking. > >Sandy Kramer (single!) The way I heard it was since most guys are in the back they need to have their SO's be in charge . The person in front can not see the person in back so they lead and the rear follows just like nature intended:) Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get > >the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a > >single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. > >(At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The >double > >is 8 kilos heavier than the single. > > > >Any thoughts (especially from couples)? > > > >Peter The question was whether to buy single kayaks or a double kayak. And the answer is: Yes. Buy both. I do most of my touring either solo or with others who want to paddle their own canoe (so to speak). So I have a solo for these trips. My wife is a fair-weather camper/kayaker, who also has some back problems, which means she cannot paddle continuously. Our double allows me to keep us both moving along, gondolier-style, even when she's taking a break from paddling. Result: no frustration on her part that I'm moving too fast or on mine that she's lagging behind. The double is also safer for the two of us: we cannot get separated, it's inherently more stable, and I can brace for both of us in beam seas (you can raft two singles up, but you cannot make progress this way, and I still don't think they'd be as stable as an aggressively braced double). One change I'm making as a result of reading "Deep Trouble" and comments from Matt B. on Paddlewise is outfitting both cockpits of the double with seasocks; Matt makes the point that the floodable volume of most double cockpits means the kayak would float too low in the water to have much chance of pumping out without reswamping. (I long ago rigged the double with holders for paddlefloats behind both cockpits and I carry two paddlefloats, two pumps, and a stirrup to allow my wife to step-ladder back into the boat.) Thanks Matt, pointing out this vital factor with doubles. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks to everybody who wrote me with comments and suggestions. It seems the more performance-oriented paddlers would favor a single, while sociable paddlers recommend a double. More affluent paddlers recommend I get two singles or a single and a double, and one person recommended I get a new girlfriend. I guess I tend to fall more in the group of sociable paddlers, since I have no athletic ambitions with the kayak, but rather hope to get out in nature, enjoy the good weather, have picnics, etc. I live in Vienna, Austria, and the Danube river is only about 10 minutes away by subway. Within an hour's drive there are also numerous lakes and other rivers. With the help of the kayak I hope to discover and enjoy these various bodies of water. Mostly alone, but occasionally with my girlfriend or a larger touring group. In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all seem to have movable seats. Is this right? For those who regularly paddle a double on their own, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Thanks again! Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dr. Peter Rand wrote: > > Thanks to everybody who wrote me with comments and suggestions. It seems the more performance-oriented paddlers would favor a single, while sociable paddlers recommend a double. More affluent paddlers recommend I get two singles or a single and a double, and one person recommended I get a new girlfriend. < I read all the suggestions with amusement. I was surprised to see that no one suggested getting a _second_ girlfriend, which is not exactly as facetious as it may sound. I know paddlers who have companion paddlers of the opposite sex with no sex involved just sea kayaking. > > I guess I tend to fall more in the group of sociable paddlers, since I have no athletic ambitions with the kayak, but rather hope to get out in nature, enjoy the good weather, have picnics, etc. I live in Vienna, Austria, and the Danube river is only about 10 minutes away by subway. Within an hour's drive there are also numerous lakes and other rivers. With the help of the kayak I hope to discover and enjoy these various bodies of water. Mostly alone, but occasionally with my girlfriend or a larger touring group. < Doctor, I have studied your case carefully, run some clinical tests and sought some outside opinion as well. The Klepper double would be perfect for you since you are not out to win any races when paddling solo and you do hope that your girlfriend will join you sometimes or often, whatever the dice read. Paddling doubles is an interesting litmus test of a person or 2 persons feelings toward society and their own place in it. A person who wishes to share experiences and enthusiasm with others and who feels that helping others is a higher calling than his/her own self-interest is likely to take to a double like a duck to water. A person who feels everybody has to watch out for themselves and is responsible for themselves and who feels that what counts in the world is himself or herself, will find a double the equivalent of floating on a raft resembling the bed of nails favored by Indian fakirs. I confess that those lines are a little overdrawn but I like to get ahead of myself, at times, and April 1 is not too far off. Paul Theroux, a subscriber to my newsletter, and who was kind enough to write the glowing foreword to my book, believes people who paddle doubles should be nominated for sainthood. Which may be true. On page 17 of the book there's a photo of Pope John Paul II in the front seat of a double during his seminarian days back in Poland. Who doubts that when our present pontiff meets his maker that he will not be rushed through the sainting process to a place in the Pantheon of Saints (I forget the term for the hallow halls of sainthood, pantheon sounds nice). Doctor, your title seems to suggest that you are a giver, as most in the medical profession are, and not a taker, which might be the case were your name followed by Esq. (will my lawyer friends ever forgive me; probably yes; lawyers have few friends and have to keep every one they have; it's usually just one). So the double suits you. But wait a minute! What if the Dr. title refers to your being a Doctor of Law! Maybe you better not paddle at all. :-) > In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all seem to have movable seats. Is this right? < Yes, it is absolutely right. The seat change made two or so years ago allows you some adjustment to a solo position. My own take on doubles: I think paddling in a double with someone you love (like a lover, spouse or child) or some one you like and admire, say a good friend, is a wonderful experience unlike anything else you can do on earth. You are literally in the same boat to share what you see and not find that the other person has drifted off in another single when you spot an otter's head peeking up at you and you can get their attention to marvel with you. It even works with someone you may not like all that much. I traveled some 150 miles in a double with a person with whom I have little in common and never have socialized with or anything. It did not bring us any closer together but it was a rewarding experience which I still cherish to this day. For a few days we were a team, working out our course, our stopping places, keeping ourselves safe in busy waters by spotting dangers looming down on us or lurking out of the corner of one eye. I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:10 PDT