I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let them crawl out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about do we or do we not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear a PFD while on the water? Currently we do not require this. Folks show up for a trip, sign a waiver, and depending on conditions, may or may not wear a PFD. We at no time discourage the use of a PFD but we also do not require one to be worn. We have a trip leader, who is of course an unpaid volunteer. Club members and their guests do not pay a fee for trips, unless there are lodging/camping fees involved. Many in the club feel this is an individual's choice, but what about liability issues? What is your club's policy regarding this issue? Thanks in advance for your help in this matter! Rick Harwell, Executive Director Leisure Skills Program & S. C. Rural Recreation Project President, Association of Outdoor Recreation & Education Clemson University Box 340735 263 Lehotsky Hall Clemson, SC 29634-0735 USA 864.656.2231 - voice 864.656.2226 - fax wharwel_at_clemson.edu - email www.hehd.clemson.edu/prtm/ruralre.htm www.aore.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
check on laws as well... in colorado you have to have a PFD "readily accessable" while on "flatwater/lakes" and it MUST be worn on moving water.... mark On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Rick Harwell wrote: > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:53:04 -0500 > From: Rick Harwell <wharwel_at_CLEMSON.EDU> > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] PFD Required?? > > > I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let them crawl > out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about do we or do we > not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear a PFD while > on the water? Currently we do not require this. Folks show up for a trip, > sign a waiver, and depending on conditions, may or may not wear a PFD. We > at no time discourage the use of a PFD but we also do not require one to be > worn. We have a trip leader, who is of course an unpaid volunteer. Club > members and their guests do not pay a fee for trips, unless there are > lodging/camping fees involved. Many in the club feel this is an > individual's choice, but what about liability issues? What is your club's > policy regarding this issue? > Thanks in advance for your help in this matter! > Rick Harwell, Executive Director > Leisure Skills Program & S. C. Rural Recreation Project > President, Association of Outdoor Recreation & Education > Clemson University Box 340735 > 263 Lehotsky Hall > Clemson, SC 29634-0735 USA > 864.656.2231 - voice > 864.656.2226 - fax > wharwel_at_clemson.edu - email > www.hehd.clemson.edu/prtm/ruralre.htm > www.aore.org > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com------------------------------------ # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. - English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
An interesting dilema...... IMHO: Trip leaders and club leadership should always wear PFD's except in the most benign conditions. They should do this as an example and should not required it to be a "club rule". All guests should be required to wear a PFD, period. All should be required to wear a PFD on moving water as well...... I live in NH where we have a "no helmet" law for motorcyclists and even though I choose to wear a helmet virtually all of the time, I would fight tooth and nail against a required helmet law. Likewise, there are times when I choose to stow the PFD, but only during the calmest of conditions...it like wearing a watch all the time, after a while you feel nekid without it. Jed (feelin a little nekid, maybe I can just wear it around the house for a while....) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scenario: A drunken jet skier slams into a club kayaker not wearing a PFD, and the kayaker sinks below the surface never to be seen again. Daddy is a lawyer and sues all and sundry for negligence, especially the club officers. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duhh, who is at fault here? If you want to sue anybody, take the drunken jet skier.... At 01:50 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Bob Denton wrote: >Scenario: A drunken jet skier slams into a club kayaker not wearing a PFD, >and the kayaker sinks below the surface never to be seen again. Daddy is a >lawyer and sues all and sundry for negligence, especially the club officers. > >cya >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here in the USA Peter, a lawsuit goes where the assets are. Peter van den Hurk wrote: > > Duhh, who is at fault here? If you want to sue anybody, take the drunken > jet skier.... > > At 01:50 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Bob Denton wrote: > >Scenario: A drunken jet skier slams into a club kayaker not wearing a PFD, > >and the kayaker sinks below the surface never to be seen again. Daddy is a > >lawyer and sues all and sundry for negligence, especially the club officers. > > >************************************************************************** -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:18 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Gabriel L Romeu wrote: >Here in the USA Peter, a lawsuit goes where the assets are. > I have heard that more often in the 5 years that I have been living in the US now. And I think it is absurd; the *drunken* jet skier should bleed for life, even if he has no assets, and not the trip leader or club officer who has nothing to do with the accident. However, are there actual, real worl examples of trip leaders or club officers who have been sued for negligence because trip members were not wearing PFDs? Or are all the given scenarios only scarecrows? If there are actual examples, I may reconsider being a trip leader for our club. The club does only follow Coast Guard regulations, which I thought would be enough in legal issues. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing PFDs whenever the circumstances require (wind, waves, currents, motorboats). But I also like to take it of in 95 degree weather on 80 degree water... And I don't have to worry about my assets being taken away, because basically I have none :-( Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick Harwell wrote: > > I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let them crawl > out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about do we or do we > not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear a PFD while > on the water? Currently we do not require this. Folks show up for a trip, > sign a waiver, and depending on conditions, may or may not wear a PFD. We > at no time discourage the use of a PFD but we also do not require one to be > worn. We have a trip leader, who is of course an unpaid volunteer. Club > members and their guests do not pay a fee for trips, unless there are > lodging/camping fees involved. Many in the club feel this is an > individual's choice, but what about liability issues? What is your club's > policy regarding this issue? In 1991, a club in this area, the Metropolitan Canoe and Kayak Club, had a discussion and vote by the board to require PFDs be worn on club trips. I was one of the pro-PFD proponents and wrote a white paper circulated prior to the meeting in which I outlined quite forcefully, and I think pursuasively, the pro argument. The discussion was fairly conducted and chaired by an anti-PFD policy person with everyone getting ample time to express their views; final vote was 7 to 5 to require PFDs. Soon after, a group opposing this rule and claiming that the MCKC was stifling sea kayaking (a surprising claim considering the great number of sea kayaking trips on the calendar and sea articles articles in the newsletter) split off, the Metropolitan Area Sea Kayakers, MASK. I was vilified up and down and harassed for two years afterwards including a vicious letter about me that almost got into Anorak, a leading East Coast paddling publication. (The then-editor called me for comment prior to publishing, I told him I had never heard of the individual; he then checked and found that the letter had been sent and signed by a ficticious person giving a wrong address, etc. and so the editor wisely decided not to print). I had rumors spread about my stealing all the articles for my folding kayak newsletter (even though no one else was writing about folding kayaks, a surprising number of people actually fell for that) and, at paddle shows, my literature and subscription forms would get stolen when I wasn't looking. Etc. Despite the grief I went through, I still think it was worthwhile to instill such a policy. Most clubs do have a PFD requirement for their trips. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- > From: Rick Harwell [mailto:wharwel_at_CLEMSON.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:53 AM > I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let > them crawl > out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about > do we or do we > not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear > a PFD while > on the water? My reply has nothing to do with clubs, waivers, or any of the issues involved in running organized club trips - it has more to do with PFDs. As it has been noted here on Paddlewise many times in the past and also in Matt Broze's & George Gronseth's "Deep Trouble" - "if you don't have it _on_ you, you don't have it". A PFD that is stuffed into the cockpit, serving as a seat cushion, stuffed in a hatch, or strapped securely to the deck, is merely a piece of nylon-covered foam that probably won't be of much value in a life threatening situation. A PFD, properly fitted and worn, provides immediate positive flotation and body core insulation without any overt action from the wearer in the event of a capsize and exit from the kayak/canoe. The wide range of styles, colors, and features of today's PFD's should allow most people to find a PFD that is reasonably comfortable and stylish (my personal view is that as long as it floats me and my gear I don't care WHAT it looks like) and thus shouldn't be a burden to wear. If you, as a club leader, are worried that requiring PFD usage will cause people to decline going on club outings please weigh the other side of the coin - how would even a single drowning or severe accident affect the club? I'm not postulating that PFD wear will prevent drownings or accidents, but they do provide an excellent "front-line" defense and I wouldn't want to be caught without mine in any paddling situation (and I'm a VERY strong swimmer). Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska (solo paddler - for a reason<grin>) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I, for one, would refuse to paddle with someone who did not have a PFD. I would even feel very uncomfortable if they weren't wearing it. I don't care how talented a swimmer a person claims to be; a knock on the head or rough weather and a confused situation can change all that in a hurry and an unprotected swimmer can put everyone else at risk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seng, Dave" <DSeng_at_health.state.ak.us> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD Required?? > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rick Harwell [mailto:wharwel_at_CLEMSON.EDU] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:53 AM > > > I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let > > them crawl > > out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about > > do we or do we > > not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear > > a PFD while > > on the water? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- > From: Rick Harwell [mailto:wharwel_at_CLEMSON.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:53 AM > I hate to open a can of worms , but I guess I am ready to let > them crawl > out. We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about > do we or do we > not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear > a PFD while > on the water? Dave Seng Replied: >The wide range of styles, colors, and features of today's PFD's should >allow most people to find a PFD that is reasonably comfortable and stylish >(my personal view is that as long as it floats me and my gear I don't care >WHAT it looks like) and thus shouldn't be a burden to wear. I'd have to agree with Dave here. I don't understand why some people are so against wearing a PFD. Mine is perfectly comfortable and I wear it regardless how benign or hot the conditions are. Heck I even wear it for pool sessions. I've never been to a cycling event where helmets were optional so I certainly don't think it's too much to ask that paddling events require PFD's. I wouldn't say that I'm a safety freak, but I'm a strong believer in Murphy's law. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't have the rules handy, but I think that the Georgia Canoeing Association trip rules say that all paddlers shall wear a PFD. Of course, 90% of our trips are WW. I do know at one outfitter (nameless) who does not require PFDs. I and others have worried about his liability. I can think of one flatwater trip where PFDs might have been superfluous. It was a springs run in central Florida, where the first half was in water less than a foot deep. Folks did put them on when we got out into deeper water. My rule is, there is a limited number of things of things I can think about simultaneously. If I *always* wear the PFD, that's one less thing to think about. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duhhh...you've never been in a sports accident situation..EVERYONE gets sued! That's the US legal system, especially if you have a house and the jet skier doesn't.. -----Original Message----- From: Peter van den Hurk [mailto:pvdhurk_at_ufl.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 4:18 PM To: Bob Denton; 'Rick Harwell'; 'paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net' Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] PFD Required?? Duhh, who is at fault here? If you want to sue anybody, take the drunken jet skier.... At 01:50 PM 3/1/00 -0500, Bob Denton wrote: >Scenario: A drunken jet skier slams into a club kayaker not wearing a PFD, >and the kayaker sinks below the surface never to be seen again. Daddy is a >lawyer and sues all and sundry for negligence, especially the club officers. > >cya >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've actually lost track of why we're on the PFD thread, however I'd like to add some thoughts (which I hope don't sound too preachy). Last fall I wrote a piece regarding the need for certain equipment when a kayaker participates in a swim support. In part, I said: >>>> > Therefore, I recommend that swim race support kayakers: > > 1. Always wear a PFD. If a swimmer is in distress, you may need to > lend immediate aide and not think to put one on or waste time doing > so. If you are dealing with someone in the water, things can happen > that would cause you to be in the water too. Wearing a PFD will help > you continue to provide aide while in the water and make your rescue > easier for the rest of us. > 2. Always use a spray skirt. If you are helping a swimmer in the > water, you may need to lean your boat while doing so. The last thing > you need is to be scooping water into your cockpit. > 3. Insure that your boat has adequate floatation. If you go for a > swim while helping a swimmer, it will give you both something to hold > on to until more help arrives. It will also help other kayakers to > help you get back in your boat. > 4. Carry a spare PFD under a deck bungee. If a swimmer gets in > trouble, it is much better to toss a PFD to them then to have them > grab onto your boat possibly causing an upset. > > In essence, what I am preaching here is to have floatation for you, > your boat and for a swimmer. I think it makes good sense. > <<<< I think the arguments I made for a kayaker aiding a swimmer would stand for a kayaker aiding another kayaker (who could very easily become a swimmer). I don't, however, carry a spare PFD on non swim support paddles. I have much sympathy with the "Live free or die" people and have argued my right to motorcycle without a helmet. In the spirit of that then, I could even admit that I would support the notion that paddling solo without a PFD is the same and should be left to the individual. However, paddling with others is different. Absolutely none of the other people I have ever met paddling have given me the impression that they would not aid another paddler in need. It therefore makes sense to me to be ready immediately to give other that aid. As an added bonus, you provide safety for yourself. Just my ramblings, Bill Leonhardt ps BTW, I find that wearing a PFD is like wearing a seat belt in the car. I feel really weird if it's not there. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Despite the grief I went through, I still think it was worthwhile to >instill such a policy. Most clubs do have a PFD requirement for their >trips. >ralph diaz >-- To say the least, I am surprised. I remember when M.A.S.K. split off but I didn't know the circumstances. Surprised, too, because you only had to cross the Hudson to NJ to find that just about all the canoe clubs absatively and posilutely Require that a PFD be WORN on any club trip. It is even in the bylaws of some of them. We have a special name for paddlers who've forgotten their PFDs... shuttlebunnies. They are not going to paddle; they know it, and they accept it. This has been policy for a long, long, time. Even in NYC, the Appalachian Mountain Club also has (and insists on) this requirement. Just last Fall, Gov Whitman signed into law that all children 12 and under are required to Wear a PFD. Pennsylvania has similar laws. In Maryland don't even think of paddling the Potomac without wearing one. You will be escorted off the river and fined $50. I've seen it happen. I have given safety talks to some groups wherein I walk in wearing a pfd and it stays on the whole time. Kinda helps make the point.... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:39 PM 03/01/2000 -0500, Joe Pylka wrote: > Just last Fall, Gov Whitman signed into law that all children 12 >and under are required to Wear a PFD. Pennsylvania has similar laws. Joe - Under what circumstances must children wear the PFD in N. J., e.g., while on deck of any boat, or any boat under x feet in length, etc.? The Coast Guard was taking proposals on similar restrictions nationwide last year, but I didn't know any of the states had beaten them to the draw. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
New topic - Securing gear in bulkhead areas Has anyone put d-rings or other tie-downs inside the bulkheaded storage areas in a sea kayak, for the purpose of preventing gear from shifting during leaning or rolling? I fill up most of the excess space with drybags but can still hear water bottles, first aid kit, etc., shift at times. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry Hawkins wrote: > New topic - Securing gear in bulkhead areas > > Has anyone put d-rings or other tie-downs inside the bulkheaded storage areas in a sea kayak, for the purpose of preventing gear from shifting during leaning or rolling? I've made a couple. I sewed two layers of Cordura into a patch and stitched some webbing and a plastic D-ring to it. I then glued them to the bulkhead with 3M 5200. I attached webbing to the D-rings and a Fastex buckle to the webbing. This make a loop to secure gear (usually my first aid kit) into the space behind my seat. I attach the webbing to the D-rings by running the end of the webbing through a tri-glide, through the D-ring and then back through the tri-glide. This makes an easy-to-remove system that is quite secure. I know others who have used commercially available tie downs in their kayaks. Avoid the stiff plastic ones that are made for WW canoes. - use the more flexible Hypalon based ones. Make sure that your application avoids creating an entanglement hazard. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jerry, I'm too lazy to affix the D rings but floatation bags to a great job of filling every available space and hence securing the load. That's all I've used for the past couple of seasons ;-) Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry Hawkins wrote: > > New topic - Securing gear in bulkhead areas > > Has anyone put d-rings or other tie-downs inside the bulkheaded storage areas in a sea kayak, for the purpose of preventing gear from shifting during leaning or rolling? > I fill up most of the excess space with drybags but can still hear water bottles, first aid kit, etc., shift at times. I use a flotation bag which inflates to fill the voids in my bulkheaded yaks. In the yak which has no bulkheads, I put in D-rings and a bungie (hooks on both ends) to keep everything away from the center of the yak. The bungie makes an "X" by threading through two of the D's. In your case, maybe you could just stuff something soft on top of the first aid kit, etc. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry, I haven't done it yet, but I plan to put a lot of d-rings or glassed-in split pieces of small PVC pipe for lash points in the boat I'm building. I don't think the gear shifting is too bad on longer trips, but on a day trip with only 1 or 2 small bags of emergency stuff, the shifting is a bit annoying. Especially considering that I'm more likely to do hard leans, sculling, and roll practice on a short day trip. Shawn Jerry wrote: >Has anyone put d-rings or other tie-downs inside the bulkheaded storage areas >in a sea kayak, for the purpose of preventing gear from shifting during >leaning or rolling? -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Has anyone put d-rings or other tie-downs inside the bulkheaded storage areas in a sea kayak, for the purpose of preventing gear from shifting during leaning or rolling? I fill up most of the excess space with drybags but can still hear water bottles, first aid kit, etc., shift at times. jerry. >> Why not inflate a flotation bag on top of your gear? If you don't have room for a flotation bag, your gear probably can't to shift enough to affect your trim in any event. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Just last Fall, Gov Whitman signed into law that all children 12 >>and under are required to Wear a PFD. Pennsylvania has similar laws. >Joe - Under what circumstances must children wear the PFD in N. J., e.g., while on deck of any boat, or any boat under x feet in length, etc.? The Coast Guard was taking proposals on similar restrictions nationwide last year, but I didn't know any of the states had beaten them to the draw. > AFAIK it is all boats, including canoes, rafts, and kayaks and at all times when in or on them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick: I am in the middle of thinking about this because of a liability / insurance discussion going on in my local club. I really think your club, and all others, should require and get into a pattern of taking all reasonable safety precautions, including PFD's on all club trips. Think about this possibility. A paddler on a club trip, not wearing a PFD, is injured and sues. You have a release form signed, but this does not stop the claim. Your insurer pays, then refuses further insurance. Your club is then refused further insurance by all other insurers. How will that affect the club's future? Regards, PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:53 AM 3/1/00 -0500, Rick Harwell wrote: We are having discussions in our sea kayak club about do we or do we >not REQUIRE trip participants on organized club trips to wear a PFD while >on the water? Our club is a paddle america club(ACA) ACA SAFETY GUIDELINES AND INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS FOR COASTAL KAYAKING #8. All non-swimmers must wear Coast Guard approved life vests (PFD's). PFDs are recommended for all participants; they are required for all participants in Coldwater or "pushy" paddling conditions. When I called to find out the definition of or "pushy" paddling conditions I was told anything that pushes your ability to handle it. That would vary with each person and their ego. We require that you wear one in salt water= intercostal,inlets, ocean all dangerous with currents and boat traffic. We suggest you wear one at all times. When some one crys foul when required to wear one I first tell them it is for my safety so if some thing happens I can retrieve their bodys easier or if they are in trouble they will at least be on the surface. The few times people have refused I called off the trip and explained to every one the reason was so & so would not wear the PFD and so far that has worked with pressure from everyone. Another club here in Fla. requires you wear one at all paddles and explains it up front to each prospective member. If you are worried then require PFDs on your trips even if it is not a club rule and if people don't want to paddle wearing a PFD then they won't be on your watch. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Glenn Stauffer wrote: > > I, for one, would refuse to paddle with someone who did not have a PFD. I > would even feel very uncomfortable if they weren't wearing it. I don't care > how talented a swimmer a person claims to be; a knock on the head or rough > weather and a confused situation can change all that in a hurry and an > unprotected swimmer can put everyone else at risk. I think you have to make room for exceptions. Paddling with Maligiaq for example when he was here in NYC in October. I wrote an article for Atlantic Coastal Kayaker (December 1999) that began thus: ----- A dozen of us were about to head out from the Downtown Boathouse in lower Manhattan for a kayak trip to the Statue of Liberty when Cindy Cole took me aside. "I bought a PFD for Maligiaq; does he need to wear it?" she asked. I had just witnessed a half hour rolling demo in which Maligiaq Padilla, the 1998 Greenland National Kayak Champion (at just 16!), had startled even some of the most respected rolling dervishes in the Northeast. "Nah," I replied. "He's his own personal flotation device. Just drop it into his kayak in case the Coast Guard pulls us over." ----- It is simply not in his waterborne culture to wear one and I don't feel it should be forced on someone who is truly one with the sea. These Greenlanders have demonstrated they are a breed apart and should be respected for that. For example, they don't wear wet or dry suits in the sense we do. One of us might be leading a trip in the dead of winter on the Maine Coast, in which surely the prescribed cloth should be a dry suit with lots of insulation underneath. One of them might show without a PFD and wearing a tulliag (I think that's the name) the one piece hooded garment that serves as both garb and spray skirt. I don't think you would want to disqualify them from the trip. I noticed in Amphibian Man that Petersen has nothing on his hands while paddling among ice floes in water that would have to be at 31 degrees or less. They are different. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> However, are there actual, real worl examples of trip leaders or club officers who have been sued for negligence because trip members were not wearing PFDs? Or are all the given scenarios only scarecrows? If there are actual examples, I may reconsider being a trip leader for our club. The club does only follow Coast Guard regulations, which I thought would be enough in legal issues. >> I have heard that the ACA has been sued only twice for incidents that happened on sea kayaking trips, and both times it was for incidents that happened on land. I don't have any details, though. Because of the rarity of such suits, and because the insurance contract for the ACA Paddle America plan looks full of holes that the insurance company could wriggle through, we decided in Inland Sea Kayakers not to pursue insurance at this time. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst wrote: ...and because the insurance contract for the ACA Paddle America plan looks full of holes that the insurance company could wriggle through,.... Is it possible to describe these briefly? This might be asking for a clause by clause attack on the policy, which I won't ask you to do, but if you could refer in general short terms to the problems, it would be appreciated. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/2/00 7:05:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << I think you have to make room for exceptions. Paddling with Maligiaq for example when he was here in NYC in October. >> OK, now this is getting interesting! I would really love to hear other Paddlewiser's views on this! I will be away for the weekend doing kayak stuff at one of our channel islands, but will look forward to the discussion when I get back. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> However, are there actual, real worl examples of trip leaders or club officers who have been sued for negligence because trip members were not wearing PFDs? Or are all the given scenarios only scarecrows? If there are actual examples, I may reconsider being a trip leader for our club. The club does only follow Coast Guard regulations, which I thought would be enough in legal issues. >> I have heard that the ACA has been sued only twice for incidents that happened on sea kayaking trips, and both times it was for incidents that happened on land. I don't have any details, though. Because of the rarity of such suits, and because the insurance contract for the ACA Paddle America plan looks full of holes that the insurance company could wriggle through, we decided in Inland Sea Kayakers not to pursue insurance at this time. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Chuck Holst wrote (snipped): > > we decided in Inland Sea Kayakers not to pursue insurance at this time. ---------------- The Atlantic Sea Kayakers, a group of about 150 spread over multiple states, has not pursued insurance either. We have no officiers. We produce a newsletter that includes articles focused on general water safety, cold water precautions, gear, weather, health, etc. Each newsletter also carries the safety philosophy of the group (which is basically we are each in control of ourselves-noone will be forced from shore). Also in the newsletter we encourage paddlers to pursue skill development, whether formally or informally. For formal instruction, we list various sources (private companies, county courses, etc.). Informally, our group offers multiple sessions over the course of warm weather for folks to get together and work on their skills. Calendar items are listed by fellow "subscribers" (subscribers of the newsletter). Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know the issue of liability is a tricky thing and in a sense you can never fully reduce your exposure. But if you have waivers, which people ahead of time know they must sign, and you project an image of care and responsible behavior, then you should go along way toward protecting yourself. Debbie's outline of what the Atlantic Sea Kayakers do (I'm a member) is an example of this. The newsletter is great in leaving a paper trail of safety consciousness. By stressing safety advice in the pages of its newsletter(and repeating the basic safety philosophy of the group in every issue in a boiler plate box), by offering opportunities for people to practice rescues and rolls informally, and by pointing to where to get formal instruction and help, Atlantic Sea Kayakers conveys such an image. If one were ever dragged in court and could point to such things, it would help enormously. Now think what would happen in the opposite situation. Suppose you have a newsletter full of articles of paddlers risking their lives, paddling in skivvies in winter and challenging storms and make it all out to be a big lark. Suppose group leaders make a big point in writing about bringing a case of beer for big parties at lunch and being so drunk that they kept falling out of their kayaks on the way home. Suppose people boasted about never wearing a PFD and using ratty torn up sprayskirts. etc. If anything were to go wrong for someone paddling with that group, lawyers would have a field day. On second thought, maybe the lawyers wouldn't have much of a case. Anyone stupid enough to paddle with those guys deserves anything they get. Debbie, for reduced liability sake maybe we should go back to the drawing boards and change the whole focus and tone of Atlantic Sea Kayakers. :-) ralph Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > The Atlantic Sea Kayakers, a group of about 150 spread over multiple > states, has not pursued insurance either. We have no officiers. We produce > a newsletter that includes articles focused on general water safety, cold > water precautions, gear, weather, health, etc. Each newsletter also carries > the safety philosophy of the group (which is basically we are each in > control of ourselves-noone will be forced from shore). Also in the > newsletter we encourage paddlers to pursue skill development, whether > formally or informally. For formal instruction, we list various sources > (private companies, county courses, etc.). Informally, our group offers > multiple sessions over the course of warm weather for folks to get together > and work on their skills. Calendar items are listed by fellow "subscribers" > (subscribers of the newsletter). > > Debbie Reeves > Sandy Hook, NJ > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There should always be an exception to the rule. I have in the past said that I am will to paddle with people who are not wearing their PFDs provided they can demonstrate that they can put it on while they are under water and I am holding on to their heels and helping to keep them moving underwater. So far I have not had any takers. Not even from the moucho macho adolescent boys on the Aquatennial Mississippi River canoe and kayak trip 2 years ago. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Peter Treby [mailto:ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au] Sent: Saturday, July 02, 1994 3:07 PM To: Chuck Holst; Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD Required?? Chuck Holst wrote: ...and because the insurance contract for the ACA Paddle America plan looks full of holes that the insurance company could wriggle through,.... Is it possible to describe these briefly? This might be asking for a clause by clause attack on the policy, which I won't ask you to do, but if you could refer in general short terms to the problems, it would be appreciated. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** I didn't review the policy myself, but went by the advice of a couple of members who had read it and were familiar with insurance contracts, so I can't be more specific. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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