If you come to New Zealand, please don't tip anybody for anything at all (well, perhaps the waiter at a poncy restaurant in Auckland, Rotorua or Queenstown), and definitely not guides or instructors. Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to our country. Allan Singleton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:56:34 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes: << Anyway how do you folks feel about this? >> Hmmmmm, let me think.....this is a Rob Cookson post so I don't want to start a flame war....but on the other hand...... I am an uncertified instructor. Yeah, I know, it's almost an oxymoron. Anyway, I am not paid at all for the services I render. Maybe I'm being paid exactly what my services are worth. But as a Yankee, and of Irish heritage, I find the very thought of tipping an instructor well over-the-top. Some of my "students" offer to pay me, but I would rather wait until I am certified and then just charge for the lessons. I can see, that maybe on a special occasion, I might consider allowing someone to explain their reasoning behind tipping a guide, but only if my mother asked really nicely. I personally find the idea unattractive but then I have never used a guide so my opinion might be construed as somewhat worthless. Hmmmm, kind of like the value of my teaching services. Jeb ;-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Awwww, come on Jed (not his real name), I like spirited discussions not flame wars. If I'm leaving another impression it's not my intent. I should have maybe been more specific. On a multi day trip the guide prepares 3 meals a day plus snacks, pitches tents, washes dishes and generally provides far more service than a waiter or waitress ever thought of. When I started doing that I was paid $50.00/day for those services. A guide day usually started at 6:00 am and ended sometime around 9:00 or 10:00 pm. Anyway, just food for thought. Would you prefer a tamer topic such as boat washing technique? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson- a displaced Yankee "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of LedJube_at_aol.com > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:22 PM > To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tipping Guides/Instructors > > > In a message dated 7/17/00 6:56:34 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes: > > << Anyway how do you folks feel about this? >> > > Hmmmmm, let me think.....this is a Rob Cookson post so I don't > want to start > a flame war....but on the other hand...... > > I am an uncertified instructor. Yeah, I know, it's almost an > oxymoron. > Anyway, I am not paid at all for the services I render. Maybe I'm > being paid > exactly what my services are worth. But as a Yankee, and of Irish > heritage, I > find the very thought of tipping an instructor well over-the-top. > Some of my > "students" offer to pay me, but I would rather wait until I am > certified and > then just charge for the lessons. > > I can see, that maybe on a special occasion, I might consider > allowing > someone to explain their reasoning behind tipping a guide, but only if my > mother asked really nicely. I personally find the idea > unattractive but then > I have never used a guide so my opinion might be construed as somewhat > worthless. Hmmmm, kind of like the value of my teaching services. > > Jeb ;-) > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As an instructor primarily (not a guide), I think there is essential difference between a guide and an instructor. Guides cook the food, wash the dishes, and generally micromanage everything to maximize the comfort of the namby pamby participant who wants exactly that. Guides should be tipped. Instructors do everything possible to push the student beyond their comfort zone so that they actually end up *extending* their comfort zone. Should someone be tipped for purposefully making someone uncomfortable? For some reason, I think not. But then again, if the student wants to be made uncomfortable (as many students do), and if the instructor fulfills that wish admirably, then perhaps the instructor ought to be tipped too. Perhaps there is an interesting corollary question to all of this.... if an instructor finds himself acting as a guide, should he try to teach the participant? Or should he just do the bare minimum expected, and not exercise his value-added skill of being able to train students into better paddlers? Kevin, who perhaps has gone off the inebriated deep end.... At 01:17 PM 7/17/00 -0700, you wrote: >Awwww, come on Jed (not his real name), I like spirited discussions not >flame wars. If I'm leaving another impression it's not my intent. > >I should have maybe been more specific. On a multi day trip the guide >prepares 3 meals a day plus snacks, pitches tents, washes dishes and >generally provides far more service than a waiter or waitress ever thought >of. When I started doing that I was paid $50.00/day for those services. A >guide day usually started at 6:00 am and ended sometime around 9:00 or 10:00 >pm. > >Anyway, just food for thought. Would you prefer a tamer topic such as boat >washing technique? > >Cheers, > >-- >Rob Cookson- a displaced Yankee > >"I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the >Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, >1787. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of LedJube_at_aol.com > > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:22 PM > > To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tipping Guides/Instructors > > > > > > In a message dated 7/17/00 6:56:34 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes: > > > > << Anyway how do you folks feel about this? >> > > > > Hmmmmm, let me think.....this is a Rob Cookson post so I don't > > want to start > > a flame war....but on the other hand...... > > > > I am an uncertified instructor. Yeah, I know, it's almost an > > oxymoron. > > Anyway, I am not paid at all for the services I render. Maybe I'm > > being paid > > exactly what my services are worth. But as a Yankee, and of Irish > > heritage, I > > find the very thought of tipping an instructor well over-the-top. > > Some of my > > "students" offer to pay me, but I would rather wait until I am > > certified and > > then just charge for the lessons. > > > > I can see, that maybe on a special occasion, I might consider > > allowing > > someone to explain their reasoning behind tipping a guide, but only if my > > mother asked really nicely. I personally find the idea > > unattractive but then > > I have never used a guide so my opinion might be construed as somewhat > > worthless. Hmmmm, kind of like the value of my teaching services. > > > > Jeb ;-) > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org (206) 788-0281 (ph) (206) 788-0284 (f) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:21 PM 7/17/00 EDT, LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/17/00 6:56:34 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes: > ><< Anyway how do you folks feel about this? >> > >Hmmmmm, let me think.....this is a Rob Cookson post so I don't want to start >a flame war....but on the other hand...... > I can see, that maybe on a special occasion, I might consider allowing >someone to explain their reasoning behind tipping a guide, >Jeb ;-) Hum lets say you make it through a guided trip and had fun, survived the paddle and was happy for the quality of the guide. Your right they don't deserve it, but hey that waitress at the restaurant does, and all she did was bring out food some one else cooked. (this was on Wave~Length long time ago and I knew one day it would be useful ) From: MW_at_AOL.COM Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:57:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Wave~Length: Tipping guides As a guide for a local livery, I feel obligated to inform you of the customary tipping schedule: All parties come back from trip alive..........................20% of fare Only one or two of your friends drown ......................10% of fare All of your friends drown............................................5% of fare (if courteous and friendly) You drown................................................................ no tip All come back and you see lots of wildlife....................25% of fare Your annoying spouse is drowned...............................50% to 75% of fare (depending on the level of annoyance spouse caused) Alternatively, if the guide is of the opposite sex, sexual favors can be substituted for tips and the 5% tip level and above. If the guide is of the same sex, well, you'll have to work that one out yourself (but beer and non-prescription items may work with some people....) Dana ( who always tip waitresses and has never had a guided trip) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I almost always tip the guide/instructor, unless they are volunteers, like in Scouts. These folks barely make a living wage, and I almost always have more fun than the law allows. My choice, I guess. YMMV Fred >From: LedJube_at_aol.com >To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Tipping Guides/Instructors >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:21:58 EDT > >In a message dated 7/17/00 6:56:34 PM, rob_cookson_at_mindspring.com writes: > ><< Anyway how do you folks feel about this? >> But as a Yankee, and of Irish heritage, I >find the very thought of tipping an instructor well over-the-top. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/17/00 11:02:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, chesapeake18_at_hotmail.com writes: << I almost always tip the guide/instructor, unless they are volunteers, like in Scouts. These folks barely make a living wage, and I almost always have more fun than the law allows. My choice, I guess. YMMV >> That's it. If you feel like tipping, tip. There are times when I am dissatisfied with a waiter or waitress but tip. I tip less, but I still tip. Wage earners in that industry are tip reliant. We were on family vacation last week and I tipped the guide at a cavern tour five bucks. He was entertaining and knowledgeable. I was the only tipper in a group of 25 or so. Tipping. If it feels good, do it. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: >I'm wondering how you folks feel about tipping guides/instructors. I feel that tipping, in general (not just the paddlesports business) should be for services above and beyond the call of duty. Unfortunately, the rest of the country (US) doesn't see things that way. When is the last time someone tipped the lowly apprentice carpenter framing their new home; the underpaid cement mason who toils and sweats to pour your nice concrete driveway; your neighborhood auto mechanic? I sometimes see a disparity in that people who are not in a service industry are not tipped, nor can they expect tips for their labors, yet are expected to tip the person in the service industry who works for the same wage. I feel that restarateurs should pay their wait staff a wage commensurate with their experience, abilities, and the effort expended in a day's work. Guide services should pay their guides a salary that reflects their efforts. People eating at restaurants and retaining guide services should expect to pay more for the services, with the knowledge that the person serving them is valued and paid well by their employer. >I'm in a fairly unique situation in that I'm very well paid for my services Excellent! I commend you and your employer. >I would suggest that in general if you take a trip or class and the guide >does a good job and goes out of their way to make sure your trip is a >positive experience you tip them at the end. Agreed, but I don't think that tipping for tipping's sake is necessary, or even desireable. The guide should get a tip for busting their butt; not just because a tip should be generally expected. Still, I generally tip for a meal, or to a guide. I don't want to appear disingenuous about someone doing their job. I'd rather, though, only tip when someone serves me with extra gusto, but know that the person will still be paid by the employer for providing only a baseline level of service. >There is usually a lot more >work that goes on behind the scenes that is never seen by the client. This is true in almost every instance where money changes hands. I don't think it's right that some industries expect tips as a rule for their employees, while the buying public would scoff at the notion of tipping a worker in another industry. >On a similar note, it is great when clients take the time to drop the >outfitter a short note telling them of any positive or negative experiences >they had on the trip. Absolutely. Businesses of all kinds need positive feedback--lots of people take the time to complain about something that went wrong, but few take the time to praise a job well done. Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Without an idea of how much running a guide service costs (boats, repairs, insurance, transportation, office overhead), but figuring that a lot of trips charge clients $100/day including meals and gear, I would think that you were underpaid. Of course, I have no intention of ever embarking on a trip where someone was intended to "pamper" me. On a trip, I expect to help pitch tents, wash dishes and cook. I'd pay someone $50/day just for local marine and navigation knowledge, but expect to chip in for my fair share of camp responsibilities, and use my own equipment. Shawn Rob wrote: >I should have maybe been more specific. On a multi day trip the guide >prepares 3 meals a day plus snacks, pitches tents, washes dishes and >generally provides far more service than a waiter or waitress ever thought >of. When I started doing that I was paid $50.00/day for those services. A >guide day usually started at 6:00 am and ended sometime around 9:00 or 10:00 >pm. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's late...and... I love getting tips! This may come from my rafting background, where a sign on the bus stated: "Tipping is a city in China"...(each bus had it's own hint). But, even working for a local sea kayaking company and running day trips I get tips and I find it both a compliment and a nice addition to my wage. I don't think anyone in this industry gets paid enough for what they do and often lobby to that end. Some say it's a lifestyle occupation, and one for young people, so when young people get older and want to buy a house, have decent health insurance, etc....they often leave the guiding industry. Once I trained with Grand Canyon Dories (on the Salmon River in Idaho) and it was the head guide's job to collect the tips. We had some great clients - even Chevy Chase's dad, Mr. Chase, and got some great tips! I taught a one day whitewater class on the Potomac (odd, I know) and was given $20.00 by two different people. $5.00 to $20.00 is usual for a day trip. One woman gave me a dollar so I added to my day bag as a lucky charm. Andree On Water Sports New: Online Sales - http://www.onwatersports.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to our country. A bit holier than thou? -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Allan and Joyce Singleton Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:27 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Tipping Guides/Instructors If you come to New Zealand, please don't tip anybody for anything at all (well, perhaps the waiter at a poncy restaurant in Auckland, Rotorua or Queenstown), and definitely not guides or instructors. Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to our country. Allan Singleton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Jack Fu" <jack.fu_at_worldnet.att.net> > > >> Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export > to > our country. > > A bit holier than thou? Just a different approach. When I was in NZ five years ago, I was discouraged from tipping. I noticed dining out was not as common there as here in the states, but I also noticed that prices, relative to here, were quite high. Staff is guaranteed a set pay up front and not left to rely on whether or not customers choose to tip and how much. And all customers pay the same (meaning your tip wasn't covering the customer who didn't like to tip). I also noticed that service did not suffer. That was my impression when I was there. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to [New Zealand]. Jack suggested, >A bit holier than thou? Nah, Jack, that's the way these folks work. The Aussies and Kiwis have very egalitarian societies. Everybody's got a good job and it keeps him in beer and the house paid for --- and, from what I've seen, everybody makes about the same amount of money, regardless of the job (which may be a slight overstatement). One guy, taking a taxi to the airport, throws his bag in the back and sits in the front seat with the driver. It's just understood. Everybody respects everybody else --- including guides, which probably inspired that response. Aussie and Kiwi rules --- they're fair dinkum! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:27 PM 7/18/00 +1200, Allan and Joyce Singleton wrote: >If you come to New Zealand, please don't tip anybody for anything at all >(well, perhaps the waiter at a poncy restaurant in Auckland, Rotorua or >Queenstown), and definitely not guides or instructors. > >Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to >our country. > > >Allan Singleton > Thanks for the TIP , sorry I can't tip you can I :) Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:45 PM 07/18/2000 -0400, dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: >At 08:27 PM 7/18/00 +1200, Allan and Joyce Singleton wrote: >>... New Zealand... >>Tipping is a repugnant practice which we would rather you do not export to >>our country. >>Allan Singleton So, shall we say, tipping is reserved for beer mugs, not for kayaks? jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > So, shall we say, tipping is reserved for beer mugs, not for kayaks? > > jerry. > Excellent thinking. But if a kiwi does you a favour and you shout him a beer at the nearest bar, he will probably insist on paying for the next round..... I guess it is a cultural thing, where the attitude to tipping differs between here and the US, but the attitude to beer is likely to be pretty damn similar. Allan Singleton Recently returned from Tonga, where you don't tip either, unless it is out of your kayak. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well Jed and All, Looks like we survived a Rob Cookson thread with nary a flame. See I told you not all of my posts were volatile trolls. Sorry I can't remember who said it but I liked the response: "Tipping, if it feels good do it". If your guide was good to you be good to your guide. Now about that shiny new boat of yours I suggest you go introduce it to some good ole New England granite. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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