Are there any adhesive experts on the list (Chemist in the industry or anyone otherwise knowledgeable) who would know if there is really any difference between the contact cements like Weldwood and the so called marine contact cements sold by kayak shops? Weldwood is in the hardware store two blocks away and Perception's cement is at the kayak shop 30 miles away. I know some on the list have used Weldwood in their kayaks, how has it held up? Dave Kruger, you mentioned in a post almost two years (Oct. 98) ago that you used it for adhering velcro to foam. Does it hold up for a season? Longer? Presently I'm having the best luck with Marine Goop (also in the hardware store two blocks away) but I always get this question about contact cements when I teach the kayak outfitting workshops. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > > Are there any adhesive experts on the list (Chemist in the industry or > anyone otherwise knowledgeable) who would know if there is really any > difference between the contact cements like Weldwood and the so called > marine contact cements sold by kayak shops? Weldwood is in the hardware > store two blocks away and Perception's cement is at the kayak shop 30 miles > away. I know some on the list have used Weldwood in their kayaks, how has > it held up? Dave Kruger, you mentioned in a post almost two years (Oct. 98) > ago that you used it for adhering velcro to foam. Does it hold up for a > season? Longer? Velcro to minicell foam, at least two years, sans abuse. Velcro to surface of a Thermarest pad, three years, also sans abuse. Neither shows any signs of loss of adhesion. Velcro or minicell **to polyethylene** (such as in typical WW boat), can peel off the PE after a year or so, unless you are vigorously aggressive in roughing up the PE. Caveat: there **may** be some difference between the Perception stuff and Weldwood, though I bet it won't make any difference except for rare applications ... read on. Funny you should ask about Weldwood today. I may be about to have my first serious Weldwood failure. Long story short: I had some Shore Adhesive (full-on stuff used to adhere Hypalon patches to serious WW rafts) that seems to have died in the can. That stuff glues Hypalon like nobody's business! Got in a bind and thought, "Well, this is a low-stress application ..." and I slapped Weldwood onto the hull of my Folbot. I think Hypalon may not allow Weldwood to adhere well. I'll find out tomorrow, if the keel strips peel off. If they do, you'll hear of it, Rex, 'cause I will be a little south of Tacoma, WA, and my bellow should be detectable in Seattle. <G> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 8/19/00 5:33 AM, Dave Kruger at dkruger_at_pacifier.com wrote: > Velcro to minicell foam, at least two years, sans abuse. > > Velcro to surface of a Thermarest pad, three years, also sans abuse. Neither > shows any signs of loss of adhesion. > > Velcro or minicell **to polyethylene** (such as in typical WW boat), can peel > off the PE after a year or so, unless you are vigorously aggressive in > roughing > up the PE. > > Caveat: there **may** be some difference between the Perception stuff and > Weldwood, though I bet it won't make any difference except for rare > applications snip Thanks for the information Dave. You seem to be getting the same results with Weldwood that I've had with the Perception contact cement. I get good results on the plastic if I clean it first with acetone then rough it up with sand paper then use acetone again before applying a couple coats of contact cement. I let the first coat dry for about 15 minutes then apply the second, doing the same on the foam or velcro. Did you have trouble with the velcro trying to curl up after you put the Weldwood contact cement on? I like the Marine Goop better for velcro because it is thicker. I can apply one coat and the velcro does not curl up. My Goop tests have resulted in an excellent bond with foam/fiberglass, foam/foam, velcro/fiberglass, and velcro/foam but I have not tried it with plastic yet. Someone else on the list did and had a good result and the instructions say it can be used for plastic. I sound like a salesman for Goop but have no connection with them, yet. :) Thanks again Dave and good luck on the Folbot. Anyone else out there using Weldwood? or Goop? Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > > Thanks again Dave and good luck on the Folbot. Anyone else out there using > Weldwood? or Goop? > > Rex > Hi Rex and Dave, I had used Scotch Super 90 and 77 spray contact adhesives for the past couple of years without any problems of adhesion with the conscientious preparations as you both have described. After a warning on this list some time back, I have changed to Scotch Super 80 made specifically for neoprene which seems to be fine for the outfitting of the boat I am working on now (an evolving process, almost ready). I will add Marine Goop to my arsenal of adhesives. -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://studiofurniture.com/paint paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 8/19/00 2:14 PM, Gabriel L Romeu at romeug_at_erols.com wrote: > I had used Scotch Super 90 and 77 spray contact adhesives for the past > couple of years without any problems of adhesion with the conscientious > preparations as you both have described. After a warning on this list > some time back, I have changed to Scotch Super 80 made specifically for > neoprene which seems to be fine for the outfitting of the boat I am > working on now (an evolving process, almost ready Gabriel, Is the Scotch Super 80 easy to find? Where did you purchase it? Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex, I get almost everything in hardware, fittings and tools from MSC industrial, probably because they have most everything I need for my business reasonably priced and ship overnight. The best thing is that their catalog usually has very good descriptions of most anything that they carry- 4 pages of o-rings for an assortment of different applications as an example. http://www.mscindustrial.com/ If you have problems, let me know as the catalog resides in my studio and I can get the part number for you. All disclaimers apply, I don't work for them and I am sure you can find it cheaper if you are willing to search... > Gabriel, > > Is the Scotch Super 80 easy to find? Where did you purchase it? > > Rex -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://studiofurniture.com/paint paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik Sprenne wrote: [snip of much good stuff -- well done, Erik] > I've had good success with the Weldwood original formula > product for most boating applications, and I'm now tempted to try it, rather > than Aquaseal or a neoprene glue, for neoprene sprayskirt repairs. I did > try Weldwood original formula once to repair a hole in a plastic whitewater > kayak (glued a milk jug 'patch' over the hole), but it was a temporary fix > which eventually came undone due to the flexing of the hull, and I finally > had a patch welded over the hole to permanently repair it. My one attempt > at using a water-based contact adhesive for knee pads in a FG canoe failed > miserably (it peeled away from the FG *and* from part of the foam), and I've > sworn off that stuff even though it is more friendly to the environment. > > A chemist, but not an adhesive chemist, > Erik Sprenne Hearty agreement here re: the water-based formulations. I have yet to find one that is satisfactory for gluing applications on fiberglass or polyethylene. Hacks me off, too, 'cause the Volatile Organic Component (VOC) in the non-water-based stuff is a contributor to air pollution. Life is full of compromises ... BTW, the Weldwood seems to be working on the Hypalon hull of the Folbot. It will be a while before I know for sure, though. Landed on a gravel beach -- gravel sticks well to Weldwood! <g> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR also a chemist, but not an adhesive chemist, either *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE: - Velcro curling when using Weldwood contact cement - I've used this many times, always had the Velcro curl a little, but never had a problem with adhesion as a result of the curl. The times I've had poor adhesion are the times I haven't taken care to prepare the surfaces well enough before bonding - and also the times when I've tried to get by with just one coat of contact cement on a purous surface. A very hearty thumbs up for abrading the harder surface with 40 grit or 60 grit sandpaper or similar, before applying the first coat of cement. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > News to me (someone said this -- maybe Sprenne) that Weldwood is > proto-neoprene. If it is, all the more reason to expect it to work on Hypalon > (which is neoprene) > Ummm. Hate to correct you, Dave, but Hypalon is *not* neporene. http://www.tamparubber.com/mainprop.htm and http://www.dupont-dow.com/products/hypalon/default.html indicate that Hypalon is Chloro-sulfonated polyethylene Neoprene is polychloroprene http://www.dupont-dow.com/products/neoprene/default.html both are synthetic rubbers, and each one can likley be formulated to resemble the physical properties of the other, though their properties in organic solvents probably differ. While your Weldwood gluing of a keel strip on a hypalon hull is working so far - and may last a long time - I'd hesitate to use Weldwood for a structural Hypalon adhesive joint. Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Robertson wrote: > I get good > results on the plastic if I clean it first with acetone then rough it up > with sand paper then use acetone again before applying a couple coats of > contact cement. I let the first coat dry for about 15 minutes then apply > the second, doing the same on the foam or velcro. Did you have trouble with > the velcro trying to curl up after you put the Weldwood contact cement on? > I like the Marine Goop better for velcro because it is thicker. I can apply > one coat and the velcro does not curl up. My Goop tests have resulted in an > excellent bond with foam/fiberglass, foam/foam, velcro/fiberglass, and > velcro/foam but I have not tried it with plastic yet. Someone else on the > list did and had a good result and the instructions say it can be used for > plastic. I sound like a salesman for Goop but have no connection with them, > yet. :) > I think Rex makes a good point, by description of his gluing process, that the preparation of the materials to be glued is a very important part of the gluing process. As far as contact cement use is concerned, gluing velcro or foam (or anything else) to fiberglass should not be as tricky as gluing things to either polyethylene or hypalon. Weldwood Contact Cement (the *Original* formula product - see http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_detail.cfm?catid=4&subcatid=8&prodhdrid=35) is a neoprene-based product and should work well for most fiberglass applications, and maybe for polyethylene and even hypalon if the surfaces are roughed up before gluing. Most adhesives work by either solvating the surface layer of the substrate being glued, and/or by having some type of durable molecule(s) being solvated so that this durable, insoluble part of the adhesive can work its way into microscopic-sized cracks and crevices in the surface of the material being glued. When the solvent evaporates, it leaves the adhesive 'grabbing on' to the microscopic imperfections to provide the adhesive joint. Beyond that, adhesives are either classed as thermoplastic or thermoset, meaning that the glue molecules can be - theoretically - somehow 'loosened' at a later time (thermoplastic), or that the glue has some chemical reaction occuring whereby it forms a *chemically-reacted* three-dimensional (crosslinked) network that cannot be 'loosened' once it has cured (thermoset). One-part adhesives are often thermoplastics (exceptions being those that require atmospheric moisture to cure/crosslink - e.g. silicone and super glue); two part adhesives are typically thermosets. If one is using the adhesive for a structural application (e.g. D-Rings for whitewater open canoe thigh straps), then it's best to follow the exact recommendations of the manufacturer of the widget being glued. OTOH, for non-structural applications (e.g. foam knee/thigh pads, etc.) there is more room for experimentation, as a glue joint failure would not be as critical, and would likely be only an inconvenience until it could be repaired. For both structural and non-structural applications, preparation of the glue joint areas *is* important. IMO, the main thing to look for in a contact cement is that it is waterproof, which should be indicated by it being a solvent-based, rather than a water-based cement. Having said that, I've had good success with the Weldwood original formula product for most boating applications, and I'm now tempted to try it, rather than Aquaseal or a neoprene glue, for neoprene sprayskirt repairs. I did try Weldwood original formula once to repair a hole in a plastic whitewater kayak (glued a milk jug 'patch' over the hole), but it was a temporary fix which eventually came undone due to the flexing of the hull, and I finally had a patch welded over the hole to permanently repair it. My one attempt at using a water-based contact adhesive for knee pads in a FG canoe failed miserably (it peeled away from the FG *and* from part of the foam), and I've sworn off that stuff even though it is more friendly to the environment. A chemist, but not an adhesive chemist, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, I have not been reading list much in past 2-3 months. I have been trying to get myself moved into my mobile home, and get a shop constructed in the master bedroom. Much of my kayaking gear will have to go into outside shed. Thing is that I have a 7mm Farmer John, as well as a Dry top that really should be gotten rid of. The farmer john I'll give away, and if someone is interested in the Dry-Top I'm wearing on my web site, we can work out something I suppose. I was 6ft tall and waist about 30 _at_135lbs, and have um... "grown some" since my injury<g> May as well get rid of the wet suit at any rate. I will keep the dry suit as it fits me and I think Gronseth was correct, it is a better idea over all... 'least that is what I remember...<g> Tom... "Work-Arounds are sometimes too simple for us to see..." <gadfly911_at_earthlink.net> homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~gadfly911/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex Roberton wrote: > Thanks for the information Dave. You seem to be getting the same results > with Weldwood that I've had with the Perception contact cement. I get good > results on the plastic if I clean it first with acetone then rough it up > with sand paper then use acetone again before applying a couple coats of > contact cement. I let the first coat dry for about 15 minutes then apply > the second, doing the same on the foam or velcro. Did you have trouble with > the velcro trying to curl up after you put the Weldwood contact cement on? Nope. Some curling, but not a problem. News to me (someone said this -- maybe Sprenne) that Weldwood is proto-neoprene. If it is, all the more reason to expect it to work on Hypalon (which is neoprene) and wet suit material (also neoprene), though there can't be any active polymer ends in the Weldwood. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Rex Roberton wrote: > I know some on the list have used Weldwood in their kayaks, how has > it held up? I've used it on several boats for installing foam padding. I've also stuck down foam saddles in WW canoes with it, although these are also located by a thwart. When foam I've mounted with Weldwood has broken off, it hasn't been the glue that goes, it's the foam. The glue bond has never come loose, but it hasn't been more than 5 years on any boat, so I can't say for sure. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 8/19/00 12:14 PM, Steve Cramer at cramer_at_coe.uga.edu wrote: > > I've used it on several boats for installing foam padding. I've also > stuck down foam saddles in WW canoes with it, although these are also > located by a thwart. When foam I've mounted with Weldwood has broken off, > it hasn't been the glue that goes, it's the foam. The glue bond has never > come loose, but it hasn't been more than 5 years on any boat, so I can't > say for sure. > In my book (just a figure of speech, I don't really have a book) 5 years is plenty of time for a outfitting adhesive test. Thanks for the information Steve. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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