anyone have tips for retrofitting bulkheads into a tupperware boat? thanks, kcd kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, ailurophile extraordinaire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have heard that you can cut a thick piece of closed cell foam which you can seal with both a pressure fit and bead of caulk. I have not tried this however. This would require a fairly accurate template. timbre_at_spiger.com wrote: > > anyone have tips for retrofitting bulkheads into a tupperware boat? > > thanks, > > kcd > -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com İİİİİ furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary İİİİİ life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint İİİİİ paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] retrofitting bulkheads > I have heard that you can cut a thick piece of closed cell foam which > you can seal with both a pressure fit and bead of caulk. I have not > tried this however. This would require a fairly accurate template. You can make a fairly accurate template using a piece of stiff solder <wire> and bending it around the outside of the boat. I generally do 1/2 the boat from the keelson up to the middle of the deck and then duplicate the shape on the other 1/2. Sometimes I make a dummy out of cardboard but usually I just go for it, cutting the foam on the inside of the line. I have a band saw so it makes it fairly easy. It is always a tight fit and with a heathy dose of 3M 5200 sealant the job is done. Remember the latex gloves with the 5200 as it is quite messy. Don't use silicone caulk, it never sticks to the poly. good luck. If you have problems, we can pre-cut and send you a bulkhead if we have the kayak model available for fitting. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe N 45ş 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122ş 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve is right. His way is a very simple and efficient way to do it. I would also recommend that you bevel cut the bulkhead about 5 degrees to accomodate the taper of the hull. This will give you a tight fit fore and aft of the bulkhead. I also always use hot melt glue to fix the bulkhead in place before I use the sealant. The 3M 5200 is wonderful but it has a cure time of 3 days to a week for complete cure. If you're in a hurry, try a sealant called Lexel. It has a cure time of 12-24 hours. It's not a "bomber" as the 5200, but it's a close 2nd. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
About the sealant: be sure to use 3M 5200 "Quick Cure", which has at least an hour of "open" time in which to get things all shipshape, then cures overnight. I made the mistake of using the regular stuff one time on a boat that was in my basement, where it's 50oF in the winter. Had to put low-wattage lamps inside the hull to get the stuff warm enough to cure, and even so it took nearly 3 WEEKS! For applications where you MIGHT want to take your work apart someday, use 3M 4200 Quick Cure. Just as waterproof, bonds just as well to a properly prepped poly hull, but lacks the structural rigidity of 5200. I like the idea of making a wire form. As a believer in the "measure twice, cut once" theory, I'd transfer the wire profile to cardboard, and test-fit it before cutting the foam. Dan Harrison ------------------------------ PADDLNC_at_aol.com wrote: [snip] > The 3M 5200 is wonderful but it has a cure > time of 3 days to a week for complete cure. If you're in a hurry, try a > sealant called Lexel. It has a cure time of 12-24 hours. It's not a > "bomber" as the 5200, but it's a close 2nd. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why do so many designs have/show the bulkheads so far forward/aft? What is the point to having a foot of space behind the seat and a foot of space ahead of the foot braces? Doesn't this equal an inordinate amount of extra water (read weight) in a flooded cockpit? Not to mention the possibility of sliding down into the cockpit (possible entrapment) at an inopportune moment? Just curious, Marvin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:48 AM 2/21/01 -0600, skylakeboatworks_at_yahoo.com wrote: >Why do so many designs have/show the bulkheads so far forward/aft? What is >the point to having a foot of space behind the seat and a foot of space >ahead of the foot braces? Doesn't this equal an inordinate amount of extra >water (read weight) in a flooded cockpit? Not to mention the possibility of >sliding down into the cockpit (possible entrapment) at an inopportune >moment? Presumably many designs have a lot of room behind the seat for in-cockpit storage but personally I don't find it particularly useful because it's difficult to retrieve something from behind the seat while sitting in the cockpit. Building the rear bulkhead a bit further back than the cockpit rim also provides a bit more stiffness in an area that gets a lot of pressure during a reentry. If you look at Nigel Dennis's designs you'll find that the rear bulkhead is located as far forward as possible *and* it's sloped to allow easy drainage when trying to empty a flooded cockpit. One of the advantages of a rear bulkhead that is a foot or so behind the cockpit rim is that it allows the addition of a third bulkhead and a day hatch. Placing the forward bulkhead a foot or so ahead of the footbraces allows someone with really long legs to remove the footbraces and glue foam padding to the bulkhead for foot support. I've seen quite a few rental boats that have had their footpegs removed. Several pieces of closed cell foam are attached with velcro to accommodate a wide range of paddlers. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Marvin, skylakeboatworks_at_yahoo.com writes: Why do so many designs have/show the bulkheads so far forward/aft? ... inordinate amount of extra water (read weight) in a flooded cockpit? ... Ralph Hoehn: I based a tortured plywood I built a few years ago on Chris Kulczicki's "Yare" design. This design has a reputation for relatively low stability and a wet ride. In both cases this reputation is deserved in my experience. I built the boat in three sections, creating three completely separate compartments through the use of double bulkheads. The forward bulkhead is slanted forward in such a way that I can comfortably brace my feet on it when my knees engage the underside of the coaming, the aft bulkhead has the opposite orientation and ends as close to my sitting position as it can without actually interfereing with it. The location and the slant of the bulkheads reduces the volume of the cockpit to an absolut minimum. I reduced the volume of the cockpit further by running a foam "pool snake" under the coaming on either side of the cockpit and around the back of it. Of course this also provides floatation and acts as a comfortable and secure hip and back brace. The last place where I could add floatation / volume reduction is in the forward upper corners of the cockpit and in the form of a vertical longitudinal separator for the cockpit. The latter would interfere with my ability to re-enter the boat from the water however and therefore I will probably not go to that step. As it is, even when rolling ("practising "inversion recovery" ;-) without spray skirt, the resulting water in the cockpit does not destabilize the boat to what I wold consider a dangerous degree. Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Why do so many designs have/show the bulkheads so far forward/aft? ... >inordinate amount of extra water (read weight) in a flooded cockpit? ... Seems to be a North American thing as glass boats here commonly have the seat making the aft bulkhead as far forward as the middle of the thighs and up to the coaming. >Ralph Hoehn: I based a tortured plywood I built a few years ago on Chris >Kulczicki's "Yare" design. This design has a reputation for relatively low >stability and a wet ride. In both cases this reputation is deserved in my >experience. But what a good boat for increasing skills. >As it is, even when rolling ("practising "inversion recovery" ;-) without >spray skirt, the resulting water in the cockpit does not destabilize the >boat to what I wold consider a dangerous degree. Becuase or at least on mine, the lowest point until at least at 45 degrees is the keel, water in the cockpit stabilizes the kayak i.e. more stable with a partly flooded cockpit. My aft bulkhead is always vertical, maybe I sit more upright than some people? The seat is also a foam block (held in by a webbing strap) which fills that volume. I can unclip the seat to clean out the cockpit. Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Alex Ferguson" <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> > >Why do so many designs have/show the bulkheads so far forward/aft? ... > >inordinate amount of extra water (read weight) in a flooded cockpit? ... > > Seems to be a North American thing as glass boats here commonly have the > seat making the aft bulkhead as far forward as the middle of the thighs and > up to the coaming. When I first looked at a Perception Shadow, I liked the fact that it had the British-style, sloped rear bulkhead tight against the seat, all in Kevlar. When Amie and I went to buy her one, it had a vertical foam bulkhead further aft of the seat. I asked about it (we were at Rockwood Outfitters, who until last year had the contract for making composite Shadows and Eclipses for Perception), I was told that they build two versions, depending on who was ordering it. "Who" in this case were the retailers and wholesalers. So whether you get a "good" or "bad" design depends on who the middle man is. Interesting. I wonder if other manufacturers do this? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>As it is, even when rolling ("practising "inversion recovery" ;-) without >spray skirt, the resulting water in the cockpit does not destabilize the >boat to what I wold consider a dangerous degree. >> Hmmmmmm, could bracing practice then be known as "inversion aversion"? And further, would wet exits be considered aversive conditioning with respect to aqueous inversion? And certainly don't confuse any of this with aqueous humor. Speed Lump *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As noted the bulhead behind the seat in Nigel Dennis kayaks also permits easy flushing of water during a rescue. In terms of the forward bulkhead, I know Nigel will build a kayak with custom placement of the forward bulkhead. Thus if you have long legs, the bulkhead can be placed further forward. If you have short legs, the bulkhead can be moved back - giving more forward storage space and less space for water when you capsize. I do not think there is an extra cost for this customization. Keep in mind that volume manufacturers must design and build for the "average" person. sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was just having this discussion with a fiend who's ordering a new boat over the weekend. If you do have this done in place of foot pegs remember to get a reinforced bulk head. There is a charge for it, around 75.00. I had mine done this way and it worked out well. With that said I've heard more then a few custom bulk heads have come through incorrect. JFF >I know Nigel will build a kayak with custom placement of the forward >bulkhead. Thus if you have long legs, the bulkhead can be placed >further forward. If you have short legs, the bulkhead can be moved >back >sid > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"I was just having this discussion with a fiend who's ordering a new boat over the weekend. If you do have this done in place of foot pegs remember to get a reinforced bulk head. There is a charge for it, around 75.00. I had mine done this way and it worked out well. With that said I've heard more then a few custom bulk heads have come through incorrect." A problem with the forward bulkhead as the footrest, is that the bulkhead may fail with injurious or boat sinking consequences if the boat does an ender into a sandbar or rock. This happened here recently, but the boat broke at the bow. The footrest/bulkhead was strong enough to withstand a spearing into a sandbar. Side rails with footpegs, and a bulkhead further forward might avoid a risk of bulkhead failure, provided the footpeg arrangement is strong enough. The local designer of the Pittarak thinks this is a safer arrangement. I'm about to have a boat built using the bulkhead-as-footrest arrangement. I want the reduction in cockpit volume, and increased storage in the forward compartment. I'm a little undecided about this. The thought of having a bad surf landing and putting a foot through the front bulkhead is a fine little nightmare. Anyone have any knowledge of failures or problems? Good Paddling, Peter Treby 37ş 42' S 145ş 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>A problem with the forward bulkhead as the footrest, is that the bulkhead >may fail with injurious or boat sinking consequences if the boat does an >ender into a sandbar or rock. Assuming were talking about a properly built and reinforced bulk if need be head I disagree that foot pegs are a better system or that they would be less dangerous. I think in most cases foot pegs would break during lesser manageable pirouette or enders. Once that happens you'd slide forward and get worked. If I'm getting jammed forward with enough force to break my bulk head I in trouble no mater what? Before I bought ordered my Romany I spoke with a few designers about, Aled William (designer of the Romany), Nigel Dennis, and Nigel Foster and all said a properly built bulk head was safer. Pegs are American thing. It allows one boat to built for many people and resale easier. that's my 2˘ anyway JFF *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter, if this is a concern I would move the bulkhead a few inches forward and cut your foam tight- the pressure on the foam would expand out increasing the friction tending to distribute a lot of the forces around the hull and deck. My experience with epoxy and glass leads me to believe that the bulkhead can be taped quite secure. If you are apprehensive about the seal with the polyester and mat, it would be and easy thing to supplement the reinforced bulkhead from the front hatch with fiberglass tape and epoxy. The foam really does cut down the volume in the cockpit and I really like the foam feel better than footpegs. I recently helped someone with the footpeg/foam dilemma by backing up the foot pegs, which were placed 3" forward of where he liked them, with closed cell foam routed out to fit the back of the foot pegs and place a piece of 3" closed cell (dense) in front of the pegs. If he decides on the pegs, he can move the closed cell behind them to reduce volume. Peter Treby wrote: > A problem with the forward bulkhead as the footrest, is that the bulkhead > may fail with injurious or boat sinking consequences if the boat does an > ender into a sandbar or rock. This happened here recently, but the boat > broke at the bow. The footrest/bulkhead was strong enough to withstand a > spearing into a sandbar. > Peter Treby -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com İİİİİ furniture from the workshop http://studiofurniture.com/diary İİİİİ life as a tourist, daily journal http://studiofurniture.com/paint İİİİİ paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Sounds like you are referring to Dave Winkworth's recent incident where he got dumped by a 4 metre wave breaking off the front section of his kayak forward of the bulkhead. He never found it again but he still managed to do a roll though wondered why it was harder than normal. It wasn't until he came up that he realised the front of his kayak was missing David Canberra -----Original Message----- From: Peter Treby [mailto:ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au] Sent: Friday, 23 February 2001 9:06 AM To: Paddlewise (E-mail) Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] retrofitting bulkheads "I was just having this discussion with a fiend who's ordering a new boat over the weekend. If you do have this done in place of foot pegs remember to get a reinforced bulk head. There is a charge for it, around 75.00. I had mine done this way and it worked out well. With that said I've heard more then a few custom bulk heads have come through incorrect." A problem with the forward bulkhead as the footrest, is that the bulkhead may fail with injurious or boat sinking consequences if the boat does an ender into a sandbar or rock. This happened here recently, but the boat broke at the bow. The footrest/bulkhead was strong enough to withstand a spearing into a sandbar. Side rails with footpegs, and a bulkhead further forward might avoid a risk of bulkhead failure, provided the footpeg arrangement is strong enough. The local designer of the Pittarak thinks this is a safer arrangement. I'm about to have a boat built using the bulkhead-as-footrest arrangement. I want the reduction in cockpit volume, and increased storage in the forward compartment. I'm a little undecided about this. The thought of having a bad surf landing and putting a foot through the front bulkhead is a fine little nightmare. Anyone have any knowledge of failures or problems? Good Paddling, Peter Treby 37ş 42' S 145ş 08' E ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Sounds like you are referring to Dave Winkworth's recent incident where he got dumped by a 4 metre wave breaking off the front section of his kayak forward of the bulkhead. He never found it again but he still managed to do a roll though wondered why it was harder than normal. It wasn't until he came up that he realised the front of his kayak was missing" Yeah, bummer. That would just spoil your whole day, wouldn't it, losing the front end. I hope Dave had plenty of duct tape handy. PT *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/22/2001 4:59:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au writes: > The thought of having a bad surf landing and putting a foot through the > front bulkhead is a fine little nightmare. Anyone have any knowledge of > failures or problems? > My standard design (of ten years ago) Pintail has a standard bulkhead, but I have a Henderson footpump bolted to it (with one inch standoffs to get it back to where it's needed) and, around that, I have a minicell plug that takes up all the rest of the room, and serves as a set of footrests. Very comfortable, very solid, and, since it's pretty well configured to the inside of the hull, I suspect it absorbs much of the bracing energy, transferring some of it out into the hull, but most into the bulkhead (or that portion not now obscured by the Henderson pump). It seems to have done well enough for the ten years I've had it, and it easily survived one bow-pole-vaults-in-sand surf landing without damage (which is more than I can say for the driver!) and a lot of other pretty dramatic stops. Of course, while the plug takes up cockpit volume, it doesn't save any volume in the forward compartment. If I were doing it now, I'd relocate the bulkhead with sufficient room for a nice, soft three-inch thickness of minicell plug, and carve it away to provide a natural comfort angle for my feet. Should also take up some of the energy of foot-into-bulkhead situations, I'd think. (BUT I'm a pilot, not an engineer!) Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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