A note of thanks to the collective experience of Paddlewise on this subject. I got on the water last night and tried several methods of wet exit without using the spray deck strap. Here's some findings: 1. Escaping through the spray deck tube without removing the deck at all is possible, if a bit wriggly. That's one reason not to have a spray deck with shoulder straps holding up the tube. 2. Hitting the spray deck hard in the centre with a flat hand, provides a fold which can be grabbed and pulled, but on my thick and fairly tight fitting deck, nothing happens. The deck does not come off if pulled in this way. This method may work on looser fitting decks of thinner neoprene. 3. Hitting the deck with the heel of the hand at a flattish spot on the deck near the coaming, and pushing towards the coaming, can produce a fold to grab. You then pull the deck fold towards the outside of the coaming, and with enough slack at the edge, pull the retaining bungy cord out and up, and the deck peels off. 4. Reaching inside the spraydeck tube with one hand, moving your hand to the outside of the deck near the coaming, and pushing the deck out and up works. This feels the easiest and most reliable. 5. I couldn't use a knees up removal of the deck in a small cockpit. My knees are locked in under the deck. Knees up deck removal seems only suitable for large cockpit openings. After these experiments, further thoughts: I like the idea of a strap fixed to the boat at the front of the cockpit. Perhaps also, more than one grab strap on the spray deck, in case one rips off. Or, a small patch of Velcro near the front of the deck, holding the grab strap end on the outside of the spray deck. If a knife is quickly available, I wonder if slitting the deck is an option. The knife would need to be sharp. Neoprene is a little difficult to cut without a panic situation. There is a risk of wounding yourself, and of course the deck loses function. So that's probably just a stunt for the movie "Doug Lloyd, The True Story". Take Care Y'All, PT 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PT, I don't think it is possible to wriggle out of a neoprene sprayskirt, nor insert a hand between the tubing and one's body. Item 1. and item 4. are bad ideas with a tight-fitting neoprene sprayskirt. I know this from extensive experience and common sense. A serious tourer will not wear a nylon sprayskirt, especially in rough conditions. Sid Taylor -----Original Message----- From: Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> To: Paddlewise (E-mail) <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Thursday, March 08, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal >A note of thanks to the collective experience of Paddlewise on this subject. >I got on the water last night and tried several methods of wet exit without >using the spray deck strap. Here's some findings: >1. Escaping through the spray deck tube without removing the deck at all is >possible, if a bit wriggly. That's one reason not to have a spray deck with >shoulder straps holding up the tube. >2. Hitting the spray deck hard in the centre with a flat hand, provides a >fold which can be grabbed and pulled, but on my thick and fairly tight >fitting deck, nothing happens. The deck does not come off if pulled in this >way. This method may work on looser fitting decks of thinner neoprene. >3. Hitting the deck with the heel of the hand at a flattish spot on the deck >near the coaming, and pushing towards the coaming, can produce a fold to >grab. You then pull the deck fold towards the outside of the coaming, and >with enough slack at the edge, pull the retaining bungy cord out and up, and >the deck peels off. >4. Reaching inside the spraydeck tube with one hand, moving your hand to the >outside of the deck near the coaming, and pushing the deck out and up works. >This feels the easiest and most reliable. >5. I couldn't use a knees up removal of the deck in a small cockpit. My >knees are locked in under the deck. Knees up deck removal seems only >suitable for large cockpit openings. >After these experiments, further thoughts: >I like the idea of a strap fixed to the boat at the front of the cockpit. >Perhaps also, more than one grab strap on the spray deck, in case one rips >off. >Or, a small patch of Velcro near the front of the deck, holding the grab >strap end on the outside of the spray deck. >If a knife is quickly available, I wonder if slitting the deck is an option. >The knife would need to be sharp. Neoprene is a little difficult to cut >without a panic situation. There is a risk of wounding yourself, and of >course the deck loses function. So that's probably just a stunt for the >movie "Doug Lloyd, The True Story". >Take Care Y'All, >PT >37º 42' S 145º 08' E > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sid writes: "I don't think it is possible to wriggle out of a neoprene sprayskirt, nor insert a hand between the tubing and one's body. Item 1. and item 4. are bad ideas with a tight-fitting neoprene sprayskirt." Well, I did wriggle out of my neoprene spraydeck yesterday. The deck is thick neoprene, with a thinner neoprene tube. The tube is not excessively tight, just say, firm. I could roll it down and thrash and wriggle out. Using this manoeuvre as a last ditch effort to breath again, like anything, needs practice ahead of time to be sure it's useful, of course. Maybe your deck will not allow it. "I know this from extensive experience and common sense." What methods, if any, do you suggest from your extensive experience and common sense if the grab tape or loop is not available, being either inside the cockpit or ripped off? Remember Murphy's Law applies here. "A serious tourer will not wear a nylon sprayskirt, especially in rough conditions." I am a light hearted tourer with, I hope, a sense of humour. This seems like a pretty rigid generalisation. While I prefer an all neoprene deck, I seem to recall John Dowd talking about nylon tubes on decks, and zip up decks, in his book. Might have been in relation to warm climate paddling. I suppose he'd pass as a serious tourer. Regards, Peter Treby 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> After these experiments, further thoughts: > I like the idea of a strap fixed to the boat at the front of the cockpit. > Perhaps also, more than one grab strap on the spray deck, in case one rips > off. > Or, a small patch of Velcro near the front of the deck, holding the grab > strap end on the outside of the spray deck. > If a knife is quickly available, I wonder if slitting the deck is an option. > The knife would need to be sharp. Neoprene is a little difficult to cut > without a panic situation. There is a risk of wounding yourself, and of > course the deck loses function. So that's probably just a stunt for the > I think one of the things I enjoy the most about this list is this mentality of "total overkill." If a little is good, then a whole lot must be mucho better. It's always good for a chuckle. I'm sorry, but somebody needs to say it --- if your that inept, then you shouldn't be paddling with equipment that you can't handle, or in conditions that are beyond your abilities! I feel that Doug Loyd embodies the ultimate example of overkill. But at least I understand his reasons behind it. Doug likes to push the envelope in some fairly extreme conditions. What kills me is these weekend paddlers who insist on being expedition equipped for paddling across the bay to get a latte. I use neoprene skirts exclusively and have never had a problem getting them off of my boat. Except for that one instance I posted earlier where the girl was using the wrong skirt for her boat, I have never had anyone get trapped in their boat by their sprayskirt in ten years of teaching and twenty years of paddling. While there may be some instances where people did have problems removing their skirts, I'm pretty certain that these can all be chalked up to inexperience and perhaps just plain old stupidity. Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I am not aware of any SEA KAYAKERS having been found dead while still seated in their boats with the sprayskirt in place. But hey, but don't mind me. I suppose this mentality of total overkill is at the very least a big boom to the retailers. Going back into hiding, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 3/8/01 5:44 PM, KiAyker_at_aol.com at KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > I think one of the things I enjoy the most about this list is this > mentality of "total overkill." If a little is good, then a whole lot must be > mucho better. It's always good for a chuckle. I'm sorry, but somebody needs > to say it --- if your that inept, then you shouldn't be paddling with > equipment that you can't handle, or in conditions that are beyond your > abilities! I feel that Doug Loyd embodies the ultimate example of overkill. > But at least I understand his reasons behind it. Doug likes to push the > envelope in some fairly extreme conditions. What kills me is these weekend > paddlers who insist on being expedition equipped for paddling across the bay > to get a latte. > I use neoprene skirts exclusively and have never had a problem getting > them off of my boat. Except for that one instance I posted earlier where the > girl was using the wrong skirt for her boat, I have never had anyone get > trapped in their boat by their sprayskirt in ten years of teaching and twenty > years of paddling. While there may be some instances where people did have > problems removing their skirts, I'm pretty certain that these can all be > chalked up to inexperience and perhaps just plain old stupidity. Perhaps > someone can enlighten me, but I am not aware of any SEA KAYAKERS having been > found dead while still seated in their boats with the sprayskirt in place. > But hey, but don't mind me. I suppose this mentality of total overkill is > at the very least a big boom to the retailers. Scott, Two or three years ago there was a woman in Bellingham, Washington, who borrowed a new skirt from a friend and went out alone to practice rolling. She was found dead in the kayak with the skirt tightly in place. If I paddle across the bay for a latte I won't be outfitted for a expedition but it won't bother me if some one in the group is. Every one has there own comfort level. I think some people just like playing with gagets and equipment. I don't know Doug Loyd personally but I think he is one of those people. He definitely likes playing with fiberglass. I'd paddle across the bay with him as long as I don't have to help carry that 85 lb kayak to the water or wait around for him while he loads all that equipment. I don't see anything wrong with an extra strap on a spray skirt or a wiffle ball or a little Velcro. Do what you like to your boat, practice skills, and go have fun. We all start out a little "inept" or incompetent, and some of us have done some stupid things. Most of us live to tell the story. Rex Roberton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:44 PM 3/8/01 -0500, you wrote: > Perhaps >someone can enlighten me, but I am not aware of any SEA KAYAKERS having been >found dead while still seated in their boats with the sprayskirt in place. I know of one case of a sailboater coming upon an overturned kayak and discovering the kayaker still in the boat, hanging upside down with the spray skirt in place. I believe the accident occured in Maine about 6 years ago. I never saw a writeup on the cause of death - heart attack or drowning... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote: <snip> >Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I am not aware of any SEA KAYAKERS having been > found dead while still seated in their boats with the sprayskirt in place. Rex responded: <Snip>>>>>>Scott, Two or three years ago there was a woman in Bellingham, Washington, who borrowed a new skirt from a friend and went out alone to practice rolling. She was found dead in the kayak with the skirt tightly in place.<<<<< As with most solo kayaking fatalities it is unclear what happened in that incident and for some reason the authorities would never release the autopsy report. A police officer from that area was in my shop one day a year or more later and told me about that accident. He said the cause of death was a massive heart attack rather than drowning. I asked him if he could send me a copy of the coroner's report that he said he had read. He never did send it. Nancy Rager, the victim, was a very experienced (over 10 years I believe) and accomplished kayaker. She had been observed rolling many times just before the incident. I heard a rumor that the boaters who found her had reported the spraydeck difficult to remove, but then they weren't kayakers and didn't know how it was normally done either and wouldn't have known to look for the release strap or have noticed if it had been tucked under. Unfortunately the spraydeck was lost somewhere along the way to or at the hospital so tests could not be done later to see if that might have been a problem. But Scott, even in Washington state, this isn't the only incident of a kayaker being found dead in the cockpit with a spraydeck attached. In the mid to late 1980's a young male paddler in a folding single was found upside down in his kayak with the spraydeck still on. This occurred in Summit Lake near Olympia, WA. It was night and he had been paddling solo, so again the evidence as to what really happened is sketchy at best. I investigated this incident and talked to the coroner and friends and relatives of the victim trying to understand what might have happened (and I pretty much ruled out suicide or foul play as the cause). I don't know if that incident ever got written up for Sea Kayaker magazine. Possibly it was mentioned. If so, it wasn't me who wrote it. If I recall correctly the water temperature in Summit Lake at the time was 38 degrees. Sudden drowning seems like a possibility here but it also could have been due to a failure to remove the spraydeck underwater. Doug was in water at least 7 or 8 degrees F. warmer near Trial Island when the cold water and "ice cream" headache disoriented him and made it impossible for him to do a Reenter and Roll. I once tried to dive for a customers glasses in 10 feet of water off our launch dock in Lake Washington one winter and couldn't do it due to the pain until I brought my neoprene hood the next day. Rescues that don't require putting your head back under cold water have a definite advantage in my mind. When looking for material for "Deep Trouble" I looked in all my files and couldn't find anything about the Summit Lake tragedy (and some other incidents that I had written about that weren't ever published). In searching my computer just now the only mention of "Summit Lake" in it was a note to Chris Cunningham, the editor for "Deep Trouble" and Sea Kayaker, asking if Sea Kayaker magazine still had those unpublished incidents I had sent them many years before. Alan Byde reported on deaths in Britain due to entrapment many years ago. He wrote a poem about it and blamed the manufacturers for using overly wide cockpit rims, as I recall. Having almost succumbed this way myself the second time I was ever in a kayak I can attest to the very real danger with new paddlers and/or new equipment. I would suggest that those who think a Reentry and Roll using a paddlefloat is faster than an outrigger paddle float rescue have not also timed the extra time it takes to fasten the spraydeck and pump out the additional water that the Reenter and Roll scoops up (because the paddlers weight is in the kayak while it is being righted). I think the timed period for comparison purposes should be from the time of capsize to the time the kayak is emptied to a level where reasonable stability has returned. Yes, you can paddle a swamped kayak if you have a good bracing skills but it is much harder to stay upright now (remember, you are having to paddle a swamped kayak with free water sloshing around and destabilizing you and changing the balance constantly in conditions that already capsized you when the kayak was much drier and easier to handle). By the way Sid, I almost never use an all neoprene spraydeck except in a river kayak or when surfing. Too hot and they tend to limit rotation at the waist. I bet that with any neoprene spray deck that you can get over your butt you can also get your arm down into to release it from the inside as Peter described in his tests. I suggest you try this technique like Peter did before being so quick to dismiss it based on remembered "experience" and "common knowledge". From the dismissive tone of your post I'm going to guess you are mostly a WW paddler doing a little "slumming " on this list and are under 40. Chris at Sea Kayaker has okayed going ahead with an article on entrapment incidents so if anyone on this list has experienced their own frightening incident or witnessed one I would like to hear from you. Names don't need to be used. Also, if you have heard about such an incident and might be able to send me in the right direction to look for the near victim or a witness, please let me know that information as well. Thanks Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal <snip> > By the way Sid, I almost never use an all neoprene spraydeck except in a > river kayak or when surfing. Too hot and they tend to limit rotation at the > waist. I've never noticed this problem of limiting rotation, but then again, I am a whitewater kayaker with a serious moral compulsion against nylon sprayskirts. I just wouldn't trust a wimpy nylon skirt in any kind of seriously rough conditions. I bet that with any neoprene spray deck that you can get over your > butt you can also get your arm down into to release it from the inside as > Peter described in his tests. I think this technique would work sitting at your desk wearing a sprayskirt (as us whitewater loonies often do when there's no water in the rivers), but there is no way that it would work in a "real" situation. A properly fitting neoprene skirt is very snug, and then there is the matter of a PFD and spraytop/drytop sitting over the skirt. It would not be easy to release the zipper on the PFD and then reach through the layers of drytop and then through the snug tunnel... especially not when upside down and gasping for breath. For the record, it usually takes 3-4 "hops" to get my skirt up and over my ample posterior -- I like it tight. > I suggest you try this technique like Peter > did before being so quick to dismiss it based on remembered "experience" and > "common knowledge". From the dismissive tone of your post I'm going to guess > you are mostly a WW paddler doing a little "slumming " on this list and are > under 40. > Slumming? That's low. Flatwater paddling is a highly amusing diversion when the rivers are too low, and I doubt many whitewater paddlers would consider it "slumming". :) Okay, now that the joke is over, let me state that I love sea kayaking in all it's forms, and I am very much looking forward to a summer of many substantial trips. Especially in the drought-stricken PNW. Cheers, Kevin ps. Matt, the Skykomish just hit 2500cfs. Do you want to run Boulder Drop this weekend? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"I bet that with any neoprene spray deck that you can get over your > butt you can also get your arm down into to release it from the inside as > Peter described in his tests. I think this technique would work sitting at your desk wearing a sprayskirt (as us whitewater loonies often do when there's no water in the rivers), but there is no way that it would work in a "real" situation. A properly fitting neoprene skirt is very snug, and then there is the matter of a PFD and spraytop/drytop sitting over the skirt. It would not be easy to release the zipper on the PFD and then reach through the layers of drytop and then through the snug tunnel... especially not when upside down and gasping for breath. For the record, it usually takes 3-4 "hops" to get my skirt up and over my ample posterior -- I like it tight." My practice was done wearing a polypro singlet, PFD and the spraydeck. It's pretty warm here at present. I did some further wet exits without the grab loop this morning wearing a cag top, with a single layer neoprene waistband. It was still possible to exit with both the exit-through-the-tube method, and the hand-down-the-tube method. But if these could not be used, either because of a snug neoprene tube, and/or layers of dry top and PFD, grabbing a fold of the deck at the side of the deck and pulling out works fine. I hope those who pour scorn on thinking this through are never in difficulty as a result. PT 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> To: "'Kevin Whilden'" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>; "Paddlewise (E-mail)" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal > I hope those who pour scorn on thinking this through are never in difficulty > as a result. Peter, I resent your assertion that I am not thinking this through. Though your comment does make me realize that you are as guilty of what you charge others. Both sides of the discussion have assumed that "if it works/doesn't work for me, then it works/doesn't work for all". I can tell you right now, with nary a thought required, that given the size of my ass, the thickness of my double layer drytop, and the tightness of my skirt tunnel, there is no way that I am going to wiggle out of the skirt when upside down. Hell, it's hard enough for me to wiggle out of the cockpit even if the skirt is not attached! But for every 6'2" 200lbs hunk of human being like me, there are countless more people of every conceivable body type. Some of those might be able to wriggle out of even the most confining skirt. My point is that the recommendation of either the wiggle-out-through-tunnel method or the reach-inside-and-grab method are highly dependent on body type and gear worn. A blanket generalization that these methods work or do not work is fundamentally flawed. Hopefully you can agree to this, and not be offended by my blanket generalization in my previous email. I completely agree that it is an effective method to grab the skirt at the side of coaming and pull up. There is less curvature of the rim on the side, and hence less tension holding the skirt down. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"I hope those who pour scorn on thinking this through are never in difficulty as a result." "Peter, I resent your assertion that I am not thinking this through." Apologies, I wasn't aiming that at you Kevin. "My point is that the recommendation of either the wiggle-out-through-tunnel method or the reach-inside-and-grab method are highly dependent on body type and gear worn." I have no argument with this point. I just thought I'd contribute my test findings stating what had worked in my circumstances for me. When I say "worked", I mean what works in my experience. I'm not trying pretend any of these methods will be OK universally, just contribute possibilities for others to weigh up. "Hopefully you can agree to this, and not be offended by my blanket generalization in my previous email." No offence taken with your posting at all. "I completely agree that it is an effective method to grab the skirt at the side of coaming and pull up. There is less curvature of the rim on the side, and hence less tension holding the skirt down." And I reckon this is a handy trick worth practising, perhaps while paddling across the bay for a latte. PT 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby wrote: > "I bet that with any neoprene spray deck that you can get over your > > butt you can also get your arm down into to release it from the inside as > > Peter described in his tests. > > I think this technique would work sitting at your desk wearing a sprayskirt > (as us whitewater loonies often do when there's no water in the rivers), but > there is no way that it would work in a "real" situation. A properly fitting > neoprene skirt is very snug, and then there is the matter of a PFD and > spraytop/drytop sitting over the skirt. It would not be easy to release the > zipper on the PFD and then reach through the layers of drytop and then > through the snug tunnel... especially not when upside down and gasping for > breath. For the record, it usually takes 3-4 "hops" to get my skirt up and > over my ample posterior -- I like it tight." That makes sense to me. > My practice was done wearing a polypro singlet, PFD and the spraydeck. It's > pretty warm here at present. > I did some further wet exits without the grab loop this morning wearing a > cag top, with a single layer neoprene waistband. It was still possible to > exit with both the exit-through-the-tube method, and the hand-down-the-tube > method. While that may be true, you're practicing in a situation where you're INTENDING to use this type of exit, you're relaxed and you know you have a backup method (the release strap and/or grabbing the skirt edge). In a real world situation, one would only attempt the arm down the tunnel release if the release strap on the skirt failed or was tucked inside the boat. At that point, you're running low on air, confused and perhaps a bit panicky. I seriously doubt that reaching down the skirt tunnel would be a viable release method under those circumstances. > But if these could not be used, either because of a snug neoprene > tube, and/or layers of dry top and PFD, grabbing a fold of the deck at the > side of the deck and pulling out works fine. Then why not use this method in the first place instead of one that's complicated and questionable? I agree that this works well and it's not hampered by other equipment, such as the paddler's clothing or PFD. -- Regards Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian writes: "> But if these could not be used, either because of a snug neoprene > tube, and/or layers of dry top and PFD, grabbing a fold of the deck at the > side of the deck and pulling out works fine. Then why not use this method in the first place instead of one that's complicated and questionable? I agree that this works well and it's not hampered by other equipment, such as the paddler's clothing or PFD." Complete agreement here. It has been a worthwhile exercise for me to try various methods, and have them in the armoury if needed. If anyone has any other methods of escape without the grab loop, please post them. I'll happily give anything a try while the water is warm. Sid writes: "...sprayskirts that have a nylon tubes with a neoprene deck. This type may be the most versatile in terms of wet-exiting and also pumping-out the boat via the tube." I had such a skirt second but last. It let a lot of water in when rolling. But in warm climates, the extra ventilation could make that an acceptable trade-off. I'll repeat the Australian standard mantra here: pumping out the boat with a hand pump via the tube is a very poor alternative to having an effective hands-free foot or electric pump. "What do I recommend? First of all - not giving bad advice." Well, let's all keep an open mind as to what works and what doesn't, and be prepared to try alternatives in real paddling conditions, so as to be able to decide what is good advice and what isn't. "Fourth, put a zipper on your tube..." Sid, have you used such a spray deck, and wet exited using the zipper? Does this work OK? If the zipper is covered by layers of clothing, we are back to grabbing a fold at the side of the deck, if the grab loop isn't available. If the zipper is accessible, still might be a problem. Never had difficulty undoing a zipper? My teenage years were full of zipper frustrations, but I'll spare you the details. Good Paddling PT 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > By the way Sid, I almost never use an all neoprene spraydeck except in a > river kayak or when surfing. Too hot and they tend to limit rotation at the > waist. I wondered when someone was going to mention this. How can many of you stand to be in a kayak with an all-neoprene skirt when you are touring during the summer? With a seasock and warm paddling clothes, during the summer I often try to paddle without a sprayskirt at all. When I was paddling with my family at age 14, I thought the main point of a sprayskirt was to keep water from dripping on your crotch. Although a neoprene skirt is "tighter" I wonder why a nylon skirt couldn't be just as tightly attached to the coaming in some way and drown people. Couldn't someone invent a sprayskirt release from inside that can be used or triggered with the knees? Maybe a plastic bar, like an implosion bar, that loosens a cleat to release the coaming cord. It can't be made complicated, otherwise it wouldn't work well. Of course, if you can operate the trigger, my guess is you can operate a strap, though if you panic, the deck might unlock more automatically. > "common knowledge". From the dismissive tone of your post I'm going to guess > you are mostly a WW paddler doing a little "slumming " on this list and are > under 40. 23 here. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt et all, I stand corrected and am looking forward the entrapment article. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, >By the way Sid, I almost never use an all neoprene spraydeck except in a >river kayak or when surfing. Too hot and they tend to limit rotation at the >waist. I bet that with any neoprene spray deck that you can get over your >butt you can also get your arm down into to release it from the inside as >Peter described in his tests. I suggest you try this technique like Peter >did before being so quick to dismiss it based on remembered "experience" and >"common knowledge". From the dismissive tone of your post I'm going to guess >you are mostly a WW paddler doing a little "slumming " on this list and are >under 40. Good guess. Not. Now who is being dismissive? Actually I am 50. As for experience, since you brought it up, I've paddled the entire coast of California averaging 30 miles a day, made a half a dozen crossings to Anacapa and Santa Cruz Islands and to Catalina Island, paddled Clayoquot, Barkley and Desolation Sounds in British Columbia, twice paddled the Baja coast of the Gulf of California from Bahia de los Angeles to La Paz, paddled to dozens of islands in the Gulf of California, circumnavigated Mexico’s two largest islands, Isla Tiburon and Isla Angel de la Guarda, the latter twice. In 1993 I and three others crossed the Gulf of California from San Francisquito, Baja California Norte to Bahia Kino, Sonora and back. I've also paddled the lower Colorado River and rafted the upper Colorado, and several California rivers. Yes, I'm a whitewater paddler of moderate skill. etc etc What's the point of this newsgroup if I can't express my honest opinion? Sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sid Taylor wrote: <SNIP>>>>What's the point of this newsgroup if I can't express my honest opinion?<<<<< Right or wrong, my honest opinion was that your honest opinion was a put down rather than a legitimate attempt to explore the possible ways to accomplish the task. My (wrong) guess as to your age was because your response seemed to me more like I have experienced at WW kayaking or downhill skiing chat groups that seem to be more about one-upmanship than honest inquiry. My judgment about that may be just as wrong as my guess of your age. Perhaps, you were in a hurry and didn't have time to list the reasons those release methods wouldn't work for you. While it appears you have a lot more miles under your butt in a kayak than I do, I dislike appeals to authority (even by real authorities) without some reasoned argument of true story to back them up. On reading your post I doubted you had ever actually tried to slide your hand down into the tunnel to remove your sprayskirt but had too readily dismissed it with an air of authority, perhaps (I guessed) because it wasn't in the curriculum or commandments of your particular kayaking religion. That was my first impression, wrong or right. I look forward to your sharing your vast experience with us in the future, but hopefully with more detail attached to the opinion. BTW I believe that just saying "Ditto" is frowned upon on by Jackie (our paddlewise list mom, who has rapped my knuckles more than once). Personally, I think that the more ways I have actually practiced to remove my sprayskirt the more chances of success I'm likely to have removing it when the chips are down. Certainly some methods are going to work better for some folks (and spraydecks, and cockpits, and clothing) than others. That's why you need to try them all and invent new ones for yourself rather than just learn the one an "authority" told you is the best. You might find yourself wearing neoprene gloves next time you need a way out of the cockpit in a hurry (BTW I just added George Gronseth to the list of those who were frustrated by neoprene gloves while trying to exit a cockpit). I learned the hand down inside of the spraydeck method from a guy who had just figured it out in the nick of time to save his life (after being unable to release the tight neoprene skirt on a kayak he was testing at the West Coast Sea Kayaking Symposium a few years back). He had already tried a lot of other ways that didn't work for him and was desperate for air by the time he thought of it. I have to give him credit, I probably would have drowned desperately trying what had previously worked (and with increasing vigor, this is not usually a time that favors original thinking). Of course someone who has practiced any technique will be much more likely to be able to do it (unless something has changed to prevent it from working). This technique isn't nearly as hard to do or as complicated as some are making it appear. I think with a little practice (and maybe no tight drytop) this technique could be learned with one hand (for that day when you dislocate a shoulder and your brace on that side collapses into a capsize). Try this before then. Lift up your PFD from the bottom by hooking your fingers under it, straighten your fingers and push the tips into your chest or belly to get the nails to slip under the top of the skirt, next slip your flattened hand down through the tunnel as you suck in your gut. Once the hand is low enough rotate it palm up and slide it towards the side of the coaming while pushing lightly up on the underside of the skirt (so your straight fingers don't ram the inside of the coaming "head-on"). With your straight rigid fingers push the spraydeck out beyond the coaming lip (to break the suction) and lift the forearm from the elbow while swinging it forward to peel off the skirt from the front of the coaming. I would appreciate it if anyone who tries this reports back to us about how it worked (or not) for them. Also please report on what keeps it from working when it fails. So far Peter reported it worked the best for him of any method he tried. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ditto -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> To: ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au>; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> >To: "'Kevin Whilden'" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>; "Paddlewise (E-mail)" ><paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> >Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 4:35 PM >Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal > >> I hope those who pour scorn on thinking this through are never in >difficulty >> as a result. > >Peter, I resent your assertion that I am not thinking this through. Though >your comment does make me realize that you are as guilty of what you charge >others. Both sides of the discussion have assumed that "if it works/doesn't >work for me, then it works/doesn't work for all". I can tell you right now, >with nary a thought required, that given the size of my ass, the thickness >of my double layer drytop, and the tightness of my skirt tunnel, there is no >way that I am going to wiggle out of the skirt when upside down. Hell, it's >hard enough for me to wiggle out of the cockpit even if the skirt is not >attached! But for every 6'2" 200lbs hunk of human being like me, there are >countless more people of every conceivable body type. Some of those might be >able to wriggle out of even the most confining skirt. > >My point is that the recommendation of either the wiggle-out-through-tunnel >method or the reach-inside-and-grab method are highly dependent on body type >and gear worn. A blanket generalization that these methods work or do not >work is fundamentally flawed. Hopefully you can agree to this, and not be >offended by my blanket generalization in my previous email. > >I completely agree that it is an effective method to grab the skirt at the >side of coaming and pull up. There is less curvature of the rim on the side, >and hence less tension holding the skirt down. > >Kevin > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PT, No, I haven't used a zippered tube, though I'm about to retrofit one so. Pumps have always been problematic. I have recently purchased a pump that has the batteries inside. Although it bench-tests well, the ocean environment will be the true test. It uses 3 D batteries and pumps 200 gpm with a 4 foot head and may be purchsed from West Marine. We'll see. I'm going to buy a deck-mounted hand pump and mount it just aft of the cockpit. This is a cumbersome position but I don't want it interfering with re-entry. I may try to mount it on the pegs. Sid Taylor -----Original Message----- From: Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> To: Paddlewise (E-mail) <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Date: Saturday, March 10, 2001 5:20 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wet exits and spray deck removal >Brian writes: >"> But if these could not be used, either because of a snug neoprene >> tube, and/or layers of dry top and PFD, grabbing a fold of the deck at the >> side of the deck and pulling out works fine. >Then why not use this method in the first place instead of one that's >complicated and questionable? I agree that this works well and it's not >hampered >by other equipment, such as the paddler's clothing or PFD." > >Complete agreement here. It has been a worthwhile exercise for me to try >various methods, and have them in the armoury if needed. If anyone has any >other methods of escape without the grab loop, please post them. I'll >happily give anything a try while the water is warm. > >Sid writes: >"...sprayskirts that have a nylon tubes with a neoprene deck. This type may >be the most versatile in terms of wet-exiting and also pumping-out the boat >via the tube." > >I had such a skirt second but last. It let a lot of water in when rolling. >But in warm climates, the extra ventilation could make that an acceptable >trade-off. >I'll repeat the Australian standard mantra here: pumping out the boat with a >hand pump via the tube is a very poor alternative to having an effective >hands-free foot or electric pump. > >"What do I recommend? First of all - not giving bad advice." >Well, let's all keep an open mind as to what works and what doesn't, and be >prepared to try alternatives in real paddling conditions, so as to be able >to decide what is good advice and what isn't. > >"Fourth, put a zipper on your tube..." >Sid, have you used such a spray deck, and wet exited using the zipper? Does >this work OK? If the zipper is covered by layers of clothing, we are back to >grabbing a fold at the side of the deck, if the grab loop isn't available. >If the zipper is accessible, still might be a problem. Never had difficulty >undoing a zipper? My teenage years were full of zipper frustrations, but >I'll spare you the details. > >Good Paddling >PT >37°42'S 145°08'E > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Pumps have always been problematic. I have recently purchased a pump that has the batteries inside. Although it bench-tests well, the ocean environment will be the true test. It uses 3 D batteries and pumps 200 gpm with a 4 foot head and may be purchsed from West Marine. We'll see. I'm going to buy a deck-mounted hand pump and mount it just aft of the cockpit. This is a cumbersome position but I don't want it interfering with re-entry. I may try to mount it on the pegs. Sid Taylor" When you're thinking about pumps, the following may be useful: http://users.senet.com.au/~pcarter/pumps.html http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/35/pumps2.html http://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/mag/35/pumps1.html Regards, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sid: Here's another one worth a look: http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/epumps.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote >"Pumps have always been problematic. I have recently purchased >a pump that has the batteries inside. Although it bench-tests well, >the ocean environment will be the true test. It uses 3 D batteries >and pumps 200 gpm with a 4 foot head and may be purchased >from West Marine. " 200 GPM ?! That thing will suck you right out the cockpit with all the water. ;) More likely 200 GPH. How long did the 2 D cells last in your bench test? 200 gph gives less than 3.5 gpm, not to impressive! Last season I fed my Rule 500 gph pump with 8 AA cells (to get the 12V). They lasted for several runs were the cockpit was full with water up to the coaming with nobody sitting in it ~5 minutes each time. During weekly rescue drills on the lake for 3 month I burned 1 set of batteries. In this situation, with me back in the rightened boat and the amount of water getting in during reentry and roll or similar situations, it took less than 2 minutes to get the water out. No problem to switch the pump on before getting back in, but shutting it down after spraydeck back on and water out was a pain in the neck with the switch under the rear coaming, espcl. when working and concentrating on preventing another capsize. Right now I am working on a sensor switch (bench tests work). Its a little circuit with a relais, two transistors, and two sensor electrodes. The switch I use has 3 positions, 1)OFF, 2) ON with sensor (pump only works if water is above a crtain level in the bottom of the boat), 3) ON pump runs as long as switch is in this position and batteries last. Personally I see advantages compared with a common float switch. Time will tell. Cheers Ulli *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ulli: >"Pumps have always been problematic. I have recently purchased a pump that has the batteries inside. Although it bench-tests well, the ocean environment will be the true test. It uses 3 D batteries and pumps 200 gpm with a 4 foot head and may be purchased from West Marine." Sid Taylor wrote that, and I quoted. Come in Sid. "No problem to switch the pump on before getting back in, but shutting it down after spraydeck back on and water out was a pain in the neck with the switch under the rear coaming, espcl. when working and concentrating on preventing another capsize." You could try fitting the switch on the deck. I had a waterproof switch covered with a electrical conduit saddle on the last boat. The better outfitted boats here have flush deck switches. You can make these by fabricating a fibreglass switch container over a 35mm film canister. A standard 10 amp household light switch goes inside. The container is mounted under the deck, and is bolted to a stainless or marine aluminium rim above deck, holding a synthetic rubber membrane which covers the switch. Sikaflex seals the whole arrangement. My description probably leaves a few questions, but regrettably I don't have a diagram in transmittable form. "The switch I use has 3 positions, 1)OFF, 2) ON with sensor (pump only works if water is above a crtain level in the bottom of the boat), 3) ON pump runs as long as switch is in this position and batteries last." This sounds great, always provided the electrical circuitry is well sealed and up to enduring salt water conditions. Because of the harsh conditions for electrics, I favour simple field-maintainable arrangements. Good Paddling, Peter Treby 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know how many people use seasocks on the list, though I believe they improve safety quite a bit, because I wonder if someone has come up with a pump that would attach at the lowest part of a seasock. I suppose it would be easy to create hole and screw-on adapter at the bottom of a sock to attach to a pump. Then, just in case significant water got in the boat anyway, another tube would lead from the bilges to feed into the same pump. With float bags (secured), the quantity of water would be small enough not to require a major pump. A backup bailer or pump, tethered to the inside of the cockpit, is not a bad idea, either. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Another pump question: I modified household check valves (made the springs weaker for lower opening pressure) for use with our Rule 500 pumps, and the valves worked great last year. I guess they got caked with salt over the winter, though, and they've been a bit balky in both our boats in recent pool tests. Any of you Rule 500 types (or folks with any pump that does not have a built-in check valve) come up with a happier solution? Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Any of you Rule 500 types (or folks with any pump that does not have a built-in check valve) come up with a happier solution?" Another solution, maybe not happier, just place a cork or bung (on a short tether) in the deck / skin outlet. If it's fitted just firm, not tight, it pops out on its tether when the pump starts. Remember to replace it afterwards. Water enters the cockpit through the pump otherwise. This bung set up is used quite a bit here. The plastic topped cork used on a reasonable bottle of vintage port fits a 3/4" outlet OK, but be sure to provide yourself with a few spares. PT 37º 42' S 145º 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There were a few good comments by a few good people on the noted subject. Peter had said: <snip>. I did some further wet exits without the grab loop this morning wearing a cag top, with a single layer neoprene waistband. It was still possible to exit with both the exit-through-the-tube method, and the hand-down-the-tube method. <snip> Given that the most likely place a skirt will normally slip off (unintentionally during an implosion, etc.) is at the coaming above your thigh area (that long section of the cockpit with the least amount of tension and hence the easiest place for the skirt to slip off), I still think the one good option (in extremis), and one I've tried, is to muster all the adrenaline possible (which shouldn't be too impossible) and commence your wet exit pushing as hard as you can away from your seat. If you have to let go of your paddle, so be it. Perhaps you have a spare or have it tethered. Then, with maximum tension on the aforementioned area and skirt, you may be able to slip a finger under your coaming (if there is enough clearance) and finish peeling it off enough to get a wholesale grip on the skirt. This doesn't work with my new skirt (a double-latex rand). When I custom ordered my Phoenix skirt, I had to special order the rand with the inner latex. Both placing it on and getting it off are difficult. The agent for Phoenix here in the US was very concerned, indicating that the custom configuration was only sold to folks well screened, and generally not made available. He indicated that death due to entrapment was a very real possibility, and went so far as to cite a couple of examples (non-specific to his import company, but incidents from the UK -- I wish I could remember the details for Matt). The first thing I did with the skirt was to take the nylon loop (flat webbing) and wrap brightly colored electrical tape, tightly around the entire length, creating a much more easily pulled loop, one that wasn't subject to water flattening and easy entrapment under the skirt during fast skirt placements. I have noticed since then that most of the more serious paddlers do the same thing with their skirt loops (even some latte drinkers). Since my Trial Island incident, I have worked hard at dog paddling sideways, while upside-down, which provides enough head-out-of-water placement, such that it is fairly easy to get some required air before succumbing to gravity again, and inverting over. You can then try to release your skirt again (I bailed at Trial, in the end, when my air finally gave out, so know the imminence of suffocation and the pain of lack of air). I would think that this skill alone, would be most useful in a number of emergency situations, and would encourage everyone to practice it when they are ready (going over and coming up for a quick gasp of air). I've also been able to practice doing this several times, successively going back over and undoing my PFD, until it is finally off, where I can then use it as an aid to righting myself. My hand roll sucks big time, and I submit to the list than many things that can be done in the pool, don't work so well at sea. Even the above has little chance of success in really cold water. But the more things you try - and try to get competent at, the more things you have to draw upon in an emergency. Throwing your paddle as far as you can, then rolling over and dog-paddling or hand-over-handing until you reach the paddle, then rolling back up is another excellent skill builder. If you are going to paddle in water like the couple that died in Door County did, you need to practice these skills. Kevin said: <snip> I can tell you right now, with nary a thought required, that given the size of my ass, the thickness of my double layer drytop, and the tightness of my skirt tunnel, there is no way that I am going to wiggle out of the skirt when upside down. <snip> Well, I'm sure Kevin isn't trying to tell us he is a big ass, but he does have a point that what works for some may not work for others. That's why I wish the Aussies would get off their high-horse about their re-enter-and-roll-don't-pump-just-paddle pedestal. North American kayaks, many anyway, just have too much volume to do that easily, and the amount of water scooped up is incredible. That's a regional difference perhaps, let alone the multitude of differences associated with individual preferences for dealing with an emergency. Some like two part dry suites, some like one, right Kev? One thing about Paddlewise is that we do get to hear all the different view points normally, and for that, I stay subscribed and enjoy. And when someone says "This is the way I do it" I normally do not get overly censorial unless they add "It is the only way". By not saying "It _isn't_ the only way, just my way" I don't assume automatically that they mean it is the only way. And Matt said: <snip> Alan Byde reported on deaths in Britain due to entrapment many years ago. He wrote a poem about it and blamed the manufacturers for using overly wide cockpit rims, as I recall. Having almost succumbed this way myself the second time I was ever in a kayak I can attest to the very real danger with new paddlers and/or new equipment. <snip> Alan had a lot of good things to say. Logical safety commentary and poetry were not always his strong points. And if anything, narrow rims simply allow the skirt to come off at the least amount of provocation, meaning folks would have to tie the shock cord really tight, such that this was really unsafe as the narrow rims also curled under themselves a fair bit, really trapping the skirt underneath; and that can be a serious safety issue too. I'm cutting the cockpit rim out of my wife's British McNulty Huntsman for this very reason, and custom making one a bit wider, flatter, with, yes Matt, a bit bigger cockpit opening. (I am also recessing the new cockpit rim at the aft portion, with input from Vince, sort of like the new Gulfstream. This will allow better layback maneuvers, as well as permit easier entrance into the cockpit). Yes Rex, I do like playing with fiberglass. Matt also said: I would suggest that those who think a Reentry and Roll using a paddlefloat is faster than an outrigger paddle float rescue have not also timed the extra time it takes to fasten the spraydeck and pump out the additional water that the Reenter and Roll scoops up (because the paddlers weight is in the kayak while it is being righted). <snip> Matt, there IS NO ARGUMENT HERE FROM ANYONE WHO IS WORTH THEIR SALT! But the R&R is faster for the proficient paddler used to employing this method, where the need to get back up instantly is paramount. I've used it in the surf zone, in clapotis at the base of cliffs, and in tide races, etc., where the object is to get away quickly from the danger zone. After that point, the only comparison times that accrue benefit to the R&R, are with folks who are able to pump/stabilize-reattatch quickly and efficiently. Most can't compete with the overall time, compared to the PF -- and even the PF compared to the fixed deck PF (ultimately producing overall the best recovery). Peter said: <snip> If a knife is quickly available, I wonder if slitting the deck is an option. The knife would need to be sharp. Neoprene is a little difficult to cut without a panic situation. There is a risk of wounding yourself, and of course the deck loses function. So that's probably just a stunt for the movie "Doug Lloyd, The True Story". Peter Peter Peter, All you need to do is cut the neoprene where it goes over the coaming, as this will instantly create a gap from the releasing tension. You will also avoid cutting your thigh this way. We have discussed knife usage in an emergency before on this list, and most agreed it would be very difficult to hold your breath long enough to actually deploy your knife, then use it successfully. After the last round of PW discussions on knives, I took a wooden letter opener that I had to the lake that summer and played with simulating a variety of emergencies (I have also practiced deploying either one of my real knives underwater, so as to practice that phase, but then substitute the wooden knife so as not to hurt myself). The knife floats so when I panic, I can let it go, bail or whatever, and practice some more (Yes, this is what I do at the lake on my summer holidays, okay. Wanna see my home movies, The True Story Of How I Spent My Summer Vacation? I thought not). Again, practicing the skill of dog-paddling up for air is an underrated skill, and a place where using a knife would benefit from a quick shot of air before deployment. I noticed at Harvey's presentation, the Greenland paddlers all had this skill of coming up for air momentarily to prolong time inverted. I also don't carry a solid PF on my rear deck, which would negate some of these issues, but do not wish the increased windage that said device presents. And finally Scott said: <snip> I feel that Doug Loyd embodies the ultimate example of overkill. But at least I understand his reasons behind it. Doug likes to push the envelope in some fairly extreme conditions. What kills me is these weekend paddlers who insist on being expedition equipped for paddling across the bay to get a latte. <snip> Scott, I resemble that remark. Well, two "L's", unless hypothermia is settin in, then its "Doug LLLLLLLLLLLLLLoyd"! How come my name keeps coming up so much on this list? Better go back to more lurking :-) As far as the overkill thing, you may have a bit of a point. And I would say that one is often better to spend money and time on skills upgrading, than on a lot of redundant equipment. I for one just like all my stuff, and have employed most of it some time or another. Chris Cunningham did an editorial awhile ago, implying that all the stuff he carries on even a little outing, are pointers to past minor episodes, and a reminder of same. I've had a lot of "episodes" -- things go sideways. The last time I was plucked out of the water, the Coast Guard said,"Well, he seems to know what he's doing" as they turned to the other member of the team that was suffering, and even officially commented that I was well prepared and outfitted, unlike many of the paddlers they run across on the remote coast. I remember getting ribbed a few years ago for my big divers knife on my deck, tethered and all. I can't thick of the number of times I've actually had to use it over the years, it been so many, after getting tangled in kelp in heavy, steep breaking swell, both surf and off-shore. Overkill? Its underkill to me. As far as expedition equipped for across bay trips, I have no problem with that, as long as the paddlers have all the basic skills in place such that the back-up equipment isn't needed. Now people who take coffee making apparatus on expedition trips, that's overkill! Safe paddling Scott. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"That's why I wish the Aussies would get off their high-horse about their re-enter-and-roll-don't-pump-just-paddle pedestal. North American kayaks, many anyway, just have too much volume to do that easily, and the amount of water scooped up is incredible. That's a regional difference perhaps,..." I think you are referring to one Australian only here, who has a firm opinion on this. His website has a lot of valuable material, including the recommendation that cockpit volume be minimised. If North American boats have huge cockpit volume, and there is no way of paddling them away with a flooded cockpit, such boats are surely less seaworthy. I don't think the high horse goes as far as saying re-enter-and-roll-DON'T-PUMP...". A hands free pump is part of the recommended package, so that you pump out as you paddle away. It's a good reality check to try paddling a flooded boat, and to see just how unstable and easily re-capsized it is. "All you need to do is cut the neoprene where it goes over the coaming, as this will instantly create a gap from the releasing tension." That creates a slit, with the bungy still holding the skirt under the coaming. Maybe your hand can then be inserted through the slit, and the skirt removed. Knife-free escapes seem likely to be quicker, and cheaper to practise. I'd be interested in hearing of your experiences in using a knife to get free of kelp. PT 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter said: <snip> I don't think the high horse goes as far as saying re-enter-and-roll-DON'T-PUMP...". A hands free pump is part of the recommended package, so that you pump out as you paddle away. It's a good reality check to try paddling a flooded boat, and to see just how unstable and easily re-capsized it is. Peter, I realize the re-enter-and-roll-low-volume contingent down there DO pump, hands free, after getting back in and returning to the upright position. I was simply contrasting the typical North American rescue practice of not paddling away until the cockpit is emptied with the hand pump. I think it was a simple mistake on my part, of word choice. I do believe Peter Carter has the best slant on the re-enter-and-roll protocol, but that shouldn't discount larger volume kayaks as unseaworthy, which was kind of my point about the "high horse" thing, and just proven by your comments (though I too believe larger volume boats can be a disadvantage depending on methodology and need for speed). Seaworthiness, is however, ultimately intrinsic with, and incumbent upon the paddler, not the boat. You also said: <snip> I'd be interested in hearing of your experiences in using a knife to get free of kelp. I carry a flick knife in my PFD, and a back-up Leatherman with knife in the day hatch. My main knife is secured in a quick-release sheath on deck. I've used it on a number of occasions, and the "overkill" connotations become less irksome when you really need it on the open coast. I will post a picture in the next while on my Nordkapp Pages, as long as no one thinks I'm doing it for attention. For local day trips, it does seem a bit out of place. As far as experiences with kelp, I was on an outer coast trip a few years ago with two other advanced paddlers. The seas were steep with a short wave period for around these perts. It seemed like every surf launching, we would get buried under kelp while exiting. One day it blew up real bad off North Brooks. We decided to get off the peninsula, asap, as nightfall was coming, and it wasn't supposed to let up for a few days. We were already set-up on the beach, then broke camp to run in a hurry, when we realized how stuck we would have been. Seas were extremely lumpy, as only a 10 mile finger of land can produce, sticking out into the swell. I managed to get out okay off the beach, as did the older paddler. The other paddler never showed up at the headland rendezvous. We went back, but could see nothing on the beach, nor anyone in the near shore seas. Where was he. Sometime later, a cussing man blasted out of the surf zone, anxious and mad. "Well, we didn't know you were in trouble" we said to him. Apparently, he had submerged under the kelp in the surf, and had been stuck good, struggling with each break not to get more tangled up. It had taken him some time to coordinate unsheathing his knife, not loosing his paddle, etc., and cutting through the kelp. We made the run for it in the end, and the two fellows experiences seas that took them up a few notches in experience. A few days later the same thing happened to me. It is even worse with a Nordkapp, with an upturned bow. You can't go forward anymore, and you certainly can't go backwards. But I had the knife out and was cut free within seconds, even before the next wave hit. I like my knife, 'cause I like my life. I've got lots of other solo stories from over the years, including some where I was far offshore playing in boomers and reflected boomer swell off reefs, only to submerge under kelp. In some of these cases, seconds can make a difference. I've also submerged under thick bull kelp, just while resting under the base of cliffs, where huge elevator swell suddenly revealed forests of kelp below in the sudden huge troughs that can entangle the old girl. Maybe is wasn't roving bands of killer squid, but on the elevator ride back up, those stalks sure play topsy-turvy with your balance until you cut loose. Well, I'm sure you get the picture. I'll post when I get the knife pic scanned and situated for viewing. 'Till then, stay sharp and at the cutting edge dear Peter. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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