John Winters asks: > Why does a narrow (I think he means high aspect > ratio. Correct me if I assume incorrectly, Michael) paddle work better? What > characteristics does a high aspect ratio paddle possess that makes it feel > better than a low aspect ratio paddle? Can we not duplicate those > characteristics with a low aspect ratio blade? > Good question, and one I've been thinking about. There's the wind advantage, of course; high-aspect ratio blades aren't as efficient at catching wind as are wider blades at low air speeds. As for performance in the water, I'm still a newcomer to this style of paddle, but my experience suggests a few possible hypotheses: 1. I think the high aspect ratio paddles are amenable to a wider range of paddling styles. It's *much* easier to vary the amount of blade in the water, which lets you sort of gearshift that way. I usually use a wide, low stroke in which the entire blade is not submerged. I can change to a very vertical stroke when I need a burst of acceleration. 2. Greater flotation. The classic Greenland style paddle is more buoyant than its European kin. Better for bracing and rolling. 3. Control of the angle of attack. The Greenland paddle makes it very simple to feel the angle of the blade. I have occasionally found myself thrown off balance pulling a European style blade through or out of the water and getting an unexpected level of resistance. 4. Similarly: The angle of attack is less critical in maneuvers like a sculling brace. Tip a Euro-style paddle blade a bit and it dives under the surface. With the Greenland style blade you can feel where it's supposed to be. Err a bit, and you can recover without dragging yourself into an unintentional roll. -- mike ------------------------- Michael Edelman mje_at_spamcop.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My old Widerness Systems sprayskirt seems to admit a little more water between it and the coaming than I would like. Any recommendations for a tight-as-a-drum spray skirt for Greenlander Pro (keyhole)? Tom Joyce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Relative to my previous Snapdragon sprayskirts, I have found Whetstone sprayskirts to be more watertight, more comfortable, hold up better (no delamination), and cheaper (custom made skirt from your dimensions) at almost half the cost. Really nice people to deal with: http://www.kayakstore.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/scstore/c-Spraydecks.php3?L+scstore+imnk2624+990407545 ----Original Message Follows---- From: "tfj" Reply-To: "tfj" To: Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Snug Spray Skirt (Greenlander Pro) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:13:14 -0500 My old Widerness Systems sprayskirt seems to admit a little more water between it and the coaming than I would like. Any recommendations for a tight-as-a-drum spray skirt for Greenlander Pro (keyhole)? Tom Joyce *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Edelman wrote: } Subject: [Paddlewise] Advantages of the high aspect ratio paddle? > Pipeguy55_at_aol.com says: > > > I'm also new to this style of paddle, but not new to kayaking and I agree > > with all of your points in the post. My question to you or others is this: > > Do you still use your original paddle or has the "traditional" paddle become > > the exclusive paddle of choice. > > > I pretty much use the high-aspect ratio paddles exclusively-. Currently > that's a Werner Arctic Wind (sort of a pseudo-Greenland paddle) and a > Feathercraft Klatwa. I pretty much exclusively use Betsie Bay Greenland style paddles. I've never tried the Klatwa. Strangely enough, I can't stand the Arctic Wind. I'd even rather use a San Juan than an Arctic Wind. Felt like all the disadvantages of a small-bladed paddle (lots of slippage) with all the disadvantages of fiberglass (non-buoyant, colder "feel", more apt to cause blisters on my hand.) Just didn't work for me; YMMV, as they say. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Myers wrote: > I pretty much exclusively use Betsie Bay Greenland style paddles. I've > never tried the Klatwa. > > Strangely enough, I can't stand the Arctic Wind. I'd even rather use > a San Juan than an Arctic Wind. Felt like all the disadvantages of > a small-bladed paddle (lots of slippage) with all the disadvantages > of fiberglass (non-buoyant, colder "feel", more apt to cause blisters > on my hand.) Funny, isn't it? I went out today to compare the Klatwa with the Arctic Wind in my Klepper single. The Klatwa is too narrow for a boat that wide, for me, at least. Sort of a storm paddle on that boat- works better with the K-1. But I can get great bite with the Arctic Wind and really make the boat move. -- mike ------------------------- Michael Edelman mje_at_spamcop.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > <This is what makes the discussion so confusing. Anybody can do a test > like yours and it would seem that you have answered the paddle > efficiency question. But unless you do some test which measure how > much energy each of you expended to create the force to make you go > that fast, you still don't know anything about the efficiency.> Nick: point taken (the italicized text above) but that's why I emphasized the other paddler's higher level of fitness (he rock climbs, skis, runs, does weights and is 8 years or so younger). It is unimaginable that I can apply as much energy to the paddle (my Greenland paddle) as he can (his Euro Lendal) given he trains so much harder than I do. But we do need some science applied here and some on the water tests. Who will do that? Best Wishes - Dennis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:48 AM -0500 5/21/01, Dennis, Becky & Natalie wrote: >Nick Schade wrote: > >> <This is what makes the discussion so confusing. Anybody can do a test >> like yours and it would seem that you have answered the paddle >> efficiency question. But unless you do some test which measure how >> much energy each of you expended to create the force to make you go >> that fast, you still don't know anything about the efficiency.> > >Nick: point taken (the italicized text above) but that's why I emphasized the >other paddler's higher level of fitness (he rock climbs, skis, runs, >does weights >and is 8 years or so younger). It is unimaginable that I can apply >as much energy >to the paddle (my Greenland paddle) as he can (his Euro Lendal) >given he trains so >much harder than I do. But we do need some science applied here and >some on the >water tests. Who will do that? > It is imaginable that you can apply as much energy, it is just not likely you can keep it up as long. But more to the point, all you "measured" was how much force you can apply, not how much energy. And if you were at hull speed, the fact that he might be able to apply more force is of little consequence since the boat was just using up any additional energy he expended making a nice big wave without really going much faster. He would have to work much harder to get just a little bit faster. If you are both going about as fast as the boat can practically go, the efficiency of the paddle is lost in the inefficiency of the boat. If you really want to see who can apply more force, tie your sterns together and have a tug-of-war. But this is still only a force test. You don't need to apply the force efficiently to generate more thrust. Being stronger is usually sufficient. Measuring energy expenditure is more complicated, and any estimates based on how the paddle feels will probably be inaccurate. However, if you can paddle for a longer time with a given paddle I don't see any reason to go back to the one that didn't work as well for you. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote in response to my query: Why does a narrow (I think he means high aspect ratio. Correct me if I assume incorrectly, Michael) paddle work better? What characteristics does a high aspect ratio paddle possess that makes it feel better than a low aspect ratio paddle? Can we not duplicate those characteristics with a low aspect ratio blade? > Good question, and one I've been thinking about. There's the wind advantage, > of course; high-aspect ratio blades aren't as efficient at catching wind as > are wider >blades at low air speeds. How would it compare to a feathered paddle? In my own case I use an unfeathered low aspect ratio paddle but in wind keep the paddle low in front of me where it merges with the flow around my body. How would it compare with that? > As for performance in the water, I'm still a newcomer to this style of > paddle, but my experience suggests a few possible hypotheses: > > 1. I think the high aspect ratio paddles are amenable to a wider range of > paddling styles. It's *much* easier to vary the amount of blade in the water, > which lets >you sort of gearshift that way. I usually use a wide, low stroke > in which the entire blade is not submerged. I can change to a very vertical > stroke when I need a >burst of acceleration. Since you can vary the forces on a low aspect ratio paddle by feathering it as well as varying its immersion it would seem a wash. Also I have no problem with doing both vertical and flat strokes with my low aspect ratio paddle but wonder how well one can do a vertical sprint style stroke with a high aspect ratio paddle. Seems like it would prove awkward at best. > 2. Greater flotation. The classic Greenland style paddle is more buoyant than > its European kin. Better for bracing and rolling. Not so sure about this unless one restricts the discussion of low aspect ratio paddles to the thin composite blades. Besides, how much effect does the buoyancy have on rolling? Could anybody notice it? > 3. Control of the angle of attack. The Greenland paddle makes it very simple > to feel the angle of the blade. I have occasionally found myself thrown off > balance >pulling a European style blade through or out of the water and > getting an unexpected level of resistance. Perhaps this has more to do with the design of a specific blade than to the low aspect ratio paddle in general. Do you get thrown off balance with all low aspect ratio blades? I wonder why this has not happened to me. I suspect Matt and others who use low aspect ratio blades may have some thoughts on this. > 4. Similarly: The angle of attack is less critical in manoeuvres like a > sculling brace. Tip a Euro-style paddle blade a bit and it dives under the > surface. With the >Greenland style blade you can feel where it's supposed to > be. Err a bit, and you can recover without dragging yourself into an > unintentional roll. This sounds like a problem with specific paddle blades and not the entire genre. White-water paddlers who have to deal with turbulent water in the extreme and do some heavy duty manoeuvring and bracing mostly use low aspect ratio paddles (in my experience) . If the low aspect ratio paddle caused control problems why doe sit seem so popular in conditions where control means so much? I think several people have written about real life comparisons mostly having to do with paddling with others who used low aspect ratio paddles. I wonder how much one can draw from such comparisons. For example: Ten people go for a paddle. Nine use low aspect ratio paddles of the same design. One uses a high aspect ratio paddle. All ten boats have different hull shapes. At the end of the morning they all arrive at the same place at the same time having paddled together the whole time in varied wind and wave conditions. Now, : Who was the strongest paddler? Who paddled the fastest boat? Which paddle type was most efficient? Which person paddled nude? (Thanks Richard for bringing up this vital point) Which paddler had a headache? Which paddler was getting over the flu? Which paddler was angry because he had been told to stay with the group? Which paddler was putting moves on the cute young lady in boat #6? It would seem to me that the variables and the absence of information will limit the value of these comparisons. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding John Winter's reply to Michael's list of the advantages of a traditional-style paddle (high aspect ratio blades, wood, etc.). . . . Michael wrote (as an advantage): > > 2. Greater flotation. The classic Greenland style paddle is more buoyant than > > its European kin. Better for bracing and rolling. . . . And John responded: > Not so sure about this unless one restricts the discussion of low aspect ratio > paddles to the thin composite blades. Besides, how much effect does the > buoyancy have on rolling? Could anybody notice it? The buoyancy of a traditional wooden kayak blade is readily felt when rolling. Sure, one could likely roll with it if it were composite (or even steel) , but when you roll with a wooden blade, you can really let the buoyancy of the blade do most of the work, allowing for a graceful roll and recovery. The buoyancy increases the ability to balance the kayak as well, whether the paddle is static or sculling slowly. I'm certain I'm not the only one who has noticed this fact. Furthermore, a buoyant paddle of the same weight as a non-buoyant paddle will feel lighter when being paddled: As soon as you immerse a blade, the buoyancy is making the paddle lighter. At the end of the stroke, the buoyancy lifts the blade out-- puts a little spring-in-the-step as it were. So many people remark about how heavy carved wooden paddles are-- without sticking them in the water. (It does call to mind the slightly-modified old question: "Which is heavier, a pound of graphite/whatsit composite, or a pound of cedar?" There's weight and then there's buoyancy.) John also wrote: >Also I have no problem with doing both vertical and flat strokes with my low aspect ratio paddle but > wonder how well one can do a vertical sprint style stroke with a high aspect > ratio paddle. Seems like it would prove awkward at best. -- Not sure why this would be awkward at all; Seems to me you can stroke even more vertically if your blade is only 3-1/2" wide instead of 7". Less chance of scraping your hull. All the Best, Harvey Golden www.pacifier.com/~qayaq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:44 PM -0700 5/22/01, Harvey Golden wrote: > >The buoyancy of a traditional wooden kayak blade is readily felt when >rolling. Sure, one could likely roll with it if it were composite (or even >steel) , but when you roll with a wooden blade, you can really let the >buoyancy of the blade do most of the work, allowing for a graceful roll and >recovery. The buoyancy increases the ability to balance the kayak as well, >whether the paddle is static or sculling slowly. > >I'm certain I'm not the only one who has noticed this fact. Furthermore, a >buoyant paddle of the same weight as a non-buoyant paddle will feel lighter >when being paddled: As soon as you immerse a blade, the buoyancy is making >the paddle lighter. At the end of the stroke, the buoyancy lifts the blade >out-- puts a little spring-in-the-step as it were. So many people remark >about how heavy carved wooden paddles are-- without sticking them in the >water. (It does call to mind the slightly-modified old question: "Which is >heavier, a pound of graphite/whatsit composite, or a pound of cedar?" >There's weight and then there's buoyancy.) As you point out, for flotation it is the density of the material that counts so a featherweight carbon fiber paddle may be less buoyant than a substantially heavier wooden paddle. However a foam core paddle may be less dense than a wood paddle of the same weight and thus more buoyant. And any two wood paddles made of the same material that weight the same will have the same buoyancy and counter intuitively a heavier paddle of the same wood will be more buoyant. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:44 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Harvey Golden wrote: >I'm certain I'm not the only one who has noticed this fact. Furthermore, a >buoyant paddle of the same weight as a non-buoyant paddle will feel lighter >when being paddled: As soon as you immerse a blade, the buoyancy is making >the paddle lighter. At the end of the stroke, the buoyancy lifts the blade >out-- puts a little spring-in-the-step as it were. Wouldn't that buoyancy also make it more difficult to immerse the paddle during the catch portion of the stroke? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harvey Golden" <qayaq_at_pacifier.com > The buoyancy of a traditional wooden kayak blade is readily felt when > rolling. Sure, one could likely roll with it if it were composite (or even > steel) , but when you roll with a wooden blade, you can really let the > buoyancy of the blade do most of the work, allowing for a graceful roll and > recovery. The buoyancy increases the ability to balance the kayak as well, > whether the paddle is static or sculling slowly. My tendency is to agree with you that a traditional wooden paddle (and I don't mean a Klepper paddle, though they date back 90 years and are therefore pretty "traditional" as well :-)) does help in a roll. It certainly helped me. But regarding the actual buoyancy of the paddle being a factor, all I can share is a confrontation that went on about 9 years ago. The woman who headed up TASK (or was to head it up soon after, I forget which), the trade association for sea kayaking, was interviewed or wrote something in ANorAK (our great east coast produced newsletter who Gabriel currently helps on) that touched on traditional paddles. She took a stab at explaining why they were easier to roll with. Among other thoughts she expressed was that the bouyancy helped in this. She was subsequently reamed in the pages of following issues of the publication by one of the better rollers with traditional paddles in the northeast. He absolutely refuted it. I too had thought that extra bouyancy was involved and so the strong statements to the contrary by a well-known traditional paddler really left an impression on me. I no longer dared put my foot in my mouth as she apparently had and state so. So, a question. Is it now safe to come out and say that the bouyancy in the traditional wood paddle helps in rolling? It is certainly an observable and logical truth in that wood is more bouyant than other materials used in paddle making especially when in a high aspect ratio configuration, i.e. thick in simplier words, and thus floats better. But John, who certainly has a more scientific bent than most of us (or is he bambozzling us with high fallutin terms and formulae? :-)), does not agree and can prove his point apparently. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Anyone know where I can pick up an application for classes,events, or a good place to sleep at the Port Townsend Symposium in September? Thanks in Advance. *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi John, The web site for the WCSKS is http://www.gopaddle.org/ I believe that you can request an application by email at info_at_gopaddle.org Why not check out the 2001 Kayak Skills Symposium at www.kayakers.net ? September 3-9 2001 location: Orcas Island, WA It concentrates on instruction (not the sale of gear) from 10 of the world's top paddlers (Nigel Foster, Nigel Dennis, Chris Duff, etc, etc) It is limited to 100 participants There will also be a wide range of BCU courses offered the week prior to the symposium Les At 08:50 AM 5/24/01 -0700, John Williams wrote: >Anyone know where I can pick up an application for classes,events, or a good >place to sleep at the Port Townsend Symposium in September? Thanks in >Advance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> (Harvey Golden:) > >I'm certain I'm not the only one who has noticed this fact. Furthermore, a > >buoyant paddle of the same weight as a non-buoyant paddle will feel lighter > >when being paddled: As soon as you immerse a blade, the buoyancy is making > >the paddle lighter. At the end of the stroke, the buoyancy lifts the blade > >out-- puts a little spring-in-the-step as it were. > > (John F.:) > Wouldn't that buoyancy also make it more difficult to immerse the > paddle during the catch portion of the stroke? I can't feel any bouyancy effects with my Greenland Blade. Of course, I've adopted Maligiaq Padilla's slice at the catch, with the top paddle edge tilted forward, and it goes all the way down quickly. Cheers - Dennis Asmussen > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was surprised to read about the buoyancy factor of the stick as an assist to rolling, but knowing Harvey's immersion in the study of traditional craft and very thoughtful analysis, would never argue. The paddle's buoyancy (as well as blade purchase) is definitely used in the butterfly roll and others in the vast repertoire of Harvey's rolls that I have seen performed. I had always surmised that the less critical blade angle in the traditional paddle were a great help in assisting beginners achieve a roll, and is the major advantage. There is no question however, that the Euro blade will power up much more aggressively though a properly exercised roll does not require it. ralph diaz wrote: > > So, a question. Is it now safe to come out and say that the bouyancy in the > traditional wood paddle helps in rolling? It is certainly an observable and > logical truth in that wood is more bouyant than other materials used in > paddle making especially when in a high aspect ratio configuration, i.e. > thick in simplier words, and thus floats better. But John, who certainly > has a more scientific bent than most of us (or is he bambozzling us with > high fallutin terms and formulae? :-)), does not agree and can prove his > point apparently. > > ralph diaz > -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Gabriel L Romeu" <romeug_at_erols.com> > I was surprised to read about the buoyancy factor of the stick as an > assist to rolling, but knowing Harvey's immersion in the study of > traditional craft and very thoughtful analysis, would never argue. Sounds like a safe assumption, though I've been suspicious of the bouyancy benefits (with the exception of a floating-paddle assisted hand roll). > > I had always surmised that the less critical blade angle in the > traditional paddle were a great help in assisting beginners achieve a > roll, and is the major advantage. That may be it. I've practiced rolling with several different paddles - all so-called Euro style. Sabella (borrowed) - sweeps very nicely but lacks power in a C-C Aquabound Expedition - my most reliable SK paddle for rolling. Predictable and rarely dives. Perception (Harmony) Sea Passage - all around mediocre paddle with a pronounced tendency to dive when sweep-rolling. I hate it (this came with my first SK) Ainsworth WW paddle (bought 2nd hand from a rental place - has an aluminum edge) - this is without question the rolling champ. It never dives and has lots of bite for a C-C. Heavy as all get out and indestructable - great for bottom rolls and developing arm strength! Lendal Archipelago - too new to really know. I rolled with it once - felt like the Aquabound. The crankshaft made a blind setup a breeze. Mohawk canoe paddle. Super setup with a T grip but awful feel in a sweep. Rolls ok though. Hmm... all euro, all different. I don't know if there's a definite pattern that would allow us to draw a conclusion that says they're bad and traditional are, by default, good. Note that the thick-edged Ainsworth is the least likely to dive. Some of the traditional Greenland style paddles have thick or rounded edges. Coincidence? Possibly not. A "soft" leading edge won't grab in a sweep and dive like a knife-edged blade. The Sea Passage is the lowest aspect ratio of the SK paddles and is least stable - perhaps the diving is related to the flutter characteristics. The Sabella has the highest ratio and sweeps lovely with good lift in spite of a small area (If CD ever puts a variable feather on their crank shaft, I'm getting one of these!) I'll let you know how I feel about my storm paddle in a roll if I ever find the time to sand and oil it. I expect I'll like it; it has all the characteristics of a decent rolling paddle - good sweep characteristics (long, high aspect ratio), soft leading edge etc. The roughly 80 sq.in. blade means it won't do wonders in a brace roll, though. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:35 PM 5/23/01 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >From: "Gabriel L Romeu" <romeug_at_erols.com> > >> I was surprised to read about the buoyancy factor of the stick as an >> assist to rolling, but knowing Harvey's immersion in the study of >> traditional craft and very thoughtful analysis, would never argue. > >Sounds like a safe assumption, though I've been suspicious of the >bouyancy benefits (with the exception of a floating-paddle assisted >hand roll). I have to concur strongly with Harvey Golden. One reason that I prefer using cedar for Greenland-style paddles, and avoiding heavy finishes, is precisely for their increased buoyancy. Some rolls become so easy, it feels like cheating. There was an interesting article in either Anorak or an Eastern club newsletter about ten years ago, where the author (Nel ?) measured the buoyancy of a number of wood paddles, by suspending weights from the center of the paddle shafts, in a swimming pool. The measured buoyancy of the Greenland paddles surprised the author. If I recall correctly she claimed several pounds of buoyancy, which was more than for the wood "Euro" paddles. Does anyone recall the particulars of this article? If not, it would be an interesting experiment to replicate. Greg Stamer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > > From: "Gabriel L Romeu" <romeug_at_erols.com> > > > I was surprised to read about the buoyancy factor of the stick as an > > assist to rolling, but knowing Harvey's immersion in the study of > > traditional craft and very thoughtful analysis, would never argue. > > Sounds like a safe assumption, though I've been suspicious of the > bouyancy benefits (with the exception of a floating-paddle assisted > hand roll). One definite advantage of of the floatation is the aid to indexing- quick work in getting positioned. > > > > > I had always surmised that the less critical blade angle in the > > traditional paddle were a great help in assisting beginners achieve a > > roll, and is the major advantage. > > That may be it. > > I've practiced rolling with several different paddles - all so-called Euro style. > > Sabella (borrowed) - sweeps very nicely but lacks power in a C-C > > Aquabound Expedition - my most reliable SK paddle for rolling. Predictable and > rarely dives. > > Perception (Harmony) Sea Passage - all around mediocre paddle with a pronounced > tendency to dive when sweep-rolling. I hate it (this came with my first SK) > > Ainsworth WW paddle (bought 2nd hand from a rental place - has an aluminum edge) - > this is without question the rolling champ. It never dives and has lots of bite for a C-C. > Heavy as all get out and indestructable - great for bottom rolls and developing arm strength! > > Lendal Archipelago - too new to really know. I rolled with it once - felt like the Aquabound. > The crankshaft made a blind setup a breeze. > > Mohawk canoe paddle. Super setup with a T grip but awful feel in a sweep. Rolls ok > though. > > Hmm... all euro, all different. I don't know if there's a definite pattern that would allow us to > draw a conclusion that says they're bad and traditional are, by default, good. Agreed Mike, generalizations/stereotypes are always suspect, never accurate. My comments were based from a fairly limited experience and lots of discussion with pretty experienced people- argument of authority, another fallacy. But, speaking from the perspective of a euro paddler, I found the Greenland configuration to be far easier to roll with and the people experienced generally have quite a larger variety of different rolls compared to an experienced euro paddler. Not necessarily better rollers though. I am not making a value judgment, too many great paddlers (far better than me) use a great variety of paddles to achieve their bliss. > > Note that the thick-edged Ainsworth is the least likely to dive. Some of the traditional Greenland > style paddles have thick or rounded edges. Coincidence? Possibly not. A "soft" leading edge > won't grab in a sweep and dive like a knife-edged blade. > > The Sea Passage is the lowest aspect ratio of the SK paddles and is least stable - perhaps the > diving is related to the flutter characteristics. The Sabella has the highest ratio and sweeps lovely > with good lift in spite of a small area (If CD ever puts a variable feather on their crank shaft, I'm > getting one of these!) > > I'll let you know how I feel about my storm paddle in a roll if I ever find the time to sand and oil it. > I expect I'll like it; it has all the characteristics of a decent rolling paddle - good sweep > characteristics (long, high aspect ratio), soft leading edge etc. The roughly 80 sq.in. blade > means it won't do wonders in a brace roll, though. I don't believe I have seen anyone attempt a c-c roll with a stick- seems to relate more to a sweep. interestingly, it is difficult to bury the traditional blade perpendicular to the boat and parallel with the water without capsizing. Seems to complement a low rather than a high brace on a low decked boat. this is something that Harvey or Greg could probably give a better opinion. I would be very interested in your reaction to the storm paddle. You obviously have some good analytical experience. -- ‡ Gabriel L Romeu ‡ ‡ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or /paint ‡ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Greg Stamer" <gstamer_at_magicnet.net> > There was an interesting article in either Anorak or an Eastern club > newsletter about ten years ago, where the author (Nel ?) measured the > buoyancy of a number of wood paddles, by suspending weights from the center > of the paddle shafts, in a swimming pool. The measured buoyancy of the > Greenland paddles surprised the author. Theory time! Volume of a two by four that's seven feet long = 1.5x3.375x12x7 = 425 cu.in Let's say 40% of the wood is left after carving = 170 cu.in. = 2.77 liters =2.77 kg = 6.1 lb of water displaced. Subtract from that the weight of the paddle. So around, idunno, 4 - 4.5 lbs (note: fully submerged)? That's _not_ a trivial force, but it ain't an inflated paddle float either. I find it amazing that somewhat less than that is used to provide stability by jamming the end of the blade under the deck lines. It's very well documented so I gotta try it and see.* Mike *going to a wedding this weekend. Maybe I should take the unfinished storm paddle, some sandpaper etc and get going on it. Think anyone would notice? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > I don't believe I have seen anyone attempt a c-c roll with a stick- > seems to relate more to a sweep. I'm certain Greg STamer, Harvey G., and others of the Greeland expert pursuasion can do a C-C roll, non-extended paddle, just as snappily as an advanced paddler with a Euro blade. I can and I'm not half as good as those guys. Dennis St. Paul > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most probably so, just have never seen it. "Dennis, Becky & Natalie" wrote: > > Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > > > I don't believe I have seen anyone attempt a c-c roll with a stick- > > seems to relate more to a sweep. > > I'm certain Greg STamer, Harvey G., and others of the Greeland expert pursuasion can do a C-C roll, > non-extended paddle, just as snappily as an advanced paddler with a Euro blade. I can and I'm not half as > good as those guys. > > Dennis > St. Paul > -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Dennis, Becky & Natalie" <arebecca1_at_qwest.net> > Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > > > I don't believe I have seen anyone attempt a c-c roll with a stick- > > seems to relate more to a sweep. > > I'm certain Greg STamer, Harvey G., and others of the Greeland expert pursuasion can do a C-C roll, > non-extended paddle, just as snappily as an advanced paddler with a Euro blade. I can and I'm not half as > good as those guys. > "Can" vs "Is good for" are the issue with me. I only suggested that with the small area, it may not have the bite that a larger blade would have. I've c-c'ed with the Sabella, comparable in area and found it iffy. The longer Greenland blade allows more leverage, which may offset the paddle size, so I'd not make further comment until I try it. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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