Ralph at FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: <<Alv, I've been following your description with interest. But let's face it, manufacturers originally introduced inflatable side tubes into some of their folding kayak models mainly merely to ease the process of assembly...>> I am aware of this, but the original motivation does not change the effects of sponsons in actual use. The "other" Ralph made some interesting comments on this in his newsletter last year. <<There are people out there who prefer more slender boats. There are manufacturers who still provide such boats. It would appear that what you're proposing is that these boats be legislated out of the production line-up?>> If you read my arguments carefully, you will find that this is not the case. I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How do we define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? <<Inbuilt floatation, if it is to be effective, requires, according to Archimedes that a good amount of interior space must be filled out by it. That space is lost to stowage capacity. But what about gear carried in dry bags, which, once the boat starts to flood, also reduces the floodable volume? In fact, a long distance paddler is likely to be blocking a considerably greater volume of the boat's interior in this way!>> Yes, but would a long distance paddler be in a recreational kayak? <<(The additional floatation that sponsons happen to provide is a nice side benefit (although only once the boat is completely flooded and when does that ever happen in practice in a decked canoe or kayak?!?)...>> Actually, the stabilizing effect starts long before the boat is completely flooded. I do not know how often it happens, but suspect that since most recreational boats/paddlers are not outfitted with skirts, flooding may not be all that rare. <<I'm a sea paddler, the increase in the risk of broaching in a partly flooded boat WITHOUT something to keep the water from sloshing into the ends is a very real problem -- one rarely recognized or discussed and one NOT solved by sponsons.>> Yes, but please remember that I am not trying to solve the problems a sea kayaker is likely to get himself into. Sponsons can do some nice things, but there are problems out there that they do not solve. <<If you wish to push for legislation that makes floatation mandatory, then let's do so in a way that keeps the paddler responsible.>> I am afraid the necessary enforcement would be very intrusive, and I would not want to go that route. <<Edi Hans Pawlata already recognized and publicized the fact in 1928 that it's not the boat that is seaworthy, but only the combination of boat and paddler.>> That is a good point, but I am not sure how helpful it is in this discussion. I am trying to find a way to make the boat/paddler combination more seaworthy. Since I see no way to reach all the beginning paddlers, our best bet may be to make the boats a bit safer. That should have a positive effect on the combination. <<By all means make it mandatory that the paddler is properly equipped and that s/he properly deploys the equipment ... but let's not push for legislation, which only covers half of the potential problems,>> That is just what I am trying to do: Define a problem of limited scope that has a well defined solution. <<or should we also mandate floatation built into the ends of sea boats and padding built into the stems of white water boats and should we mandate flexible coamings and deck construction that does not break the paddler's back when a breaker sweeps over him, or ...>> No, let us leave those problems for some other time. <<It remains an obvious fact that boats with some inbuilt floatation -- like Pakboats -- present an advantage to the safety conscious paddler since s/he does not have to add quite so much floatation themselves. Having said that, you would not catch me putting out to sea without a whole lot more floatation stuffed AND strapped into the hull of my boat than that provided as standard on the current crop of folders of whatever stripe.>> You are hardly the beginning recreational paddler I had in mind, and I am well aware that you have the experience and judgment to outfit your boat appropriately. We know, and the people who read this know, that a boat needs to be appropriately outfitted for its use. I add flotation for whitewater play, and I leave the flotation bags home when I go wilderness tripping because my gear provides the flotation I need. My concern in this discussion is for the beginning recreational paddler who does not know. Best regards, Alv Elvestad *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). 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----- Original Message ----- From: "ScanSport" <SCANSPORT_at_CONNRIVER.NET> said: >I am trying to find a way to make the boat/paddler combination > more seaworthy. Since I see no way to reach all the beginning paddlers, our > best bet may be to make the boats a bit safer. That should have a positive > effect on the combination. > Since it would be very difficult for "law enforcement" to know whether a boat was a "rec" boat or a serious kayak why don't we also legislate and require the use of: 1. Hand held flares 2. Flare pistols 3. Parachute flares 4. VHF for all trips longer than 1 mile 5. Epirb for all trips longer than 2 miles 6. Signal mirror 7. Compass, chart of the area, and GPS for when fog rolls in 8. Spare paddle 9. Paddle float 10. Bilge pump 11. Tow rope (must be minimum 45' long made of floating line with a breaking strength of 1,000 lb or more) 12. Certificate showing you have demonstrated the ability to successfully perform: a. paddle float reentry b. Re-enter & roll with a paddle float c. Proper radio procedures d. Navigation e. Surf launch f. Surf landing g. Paddling in conditions worse than on the day in question. 13. PFD (worn not carried) 14. Skirt 15 Paddle leash 16. Whistle 17. Radar reflector There comes a time when PEOPLE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions. We can't legislate it all. I'm sorry if some people put out in conditions that they are not qualified to be in. As Scott said, maybe that's the way nature culls the intellectually challenged from the population. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 18 Apr 2002 at 14:09, ScanSport wrote: > I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for > the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How do we > define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? I think it could be a good marketting ploy by one of the recreational kayak vendors. The boat is "safer" because it has extra flotation. Look at the auto industry and how hard they are now working at adding airbags in every conceivable place - far more locations than the initial legislation required, because the industry found that safety sells. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:56 PM 4/18/02 -0400, kork4_at_email.com wrote: >On 18 Apr 2002 at 14:09, ScanSport wrote: > > > I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for > > the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How do we > > define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? > >I think it could be a good marketting ploy by one of the recreational >kayak vendors. > >The boat is "safer" because it has extra flotation. "could be"? There is already one well know and respected Canoe and Kayak manufacturer that builds their recreational kayaks using a material with a foam core that they claim provides "more floation". They don't come right out and claim that the the extra floatation is safer though. However, in most cases people don't buy kayaks directly from the vendor, but through a store or shop which sells kayaks from one or more vendors. That salesman might easily imply that the extra floatation makes that particular kayak safer and the consumer might then choose that model, not based on the vendors claims, but how the salesman interpreted them. The salesman is not likely going to explain that while the $500 recreational kayak made of a material that has extra floation might float a couple of inches higher than a $400 recreational kayak with a standard polyethylene layup when it's full of water (because neither has float bags to displace water), neither one of them can actually be paddled at that point. The only real advantage of a kayak that floats higher in the water when it's full of water is that it would be easier to recover in a search and rescue effort. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve writes: . . . why don't we also legislate and require the use of . . . 13. PFD (worn not carried) ---------------------------------------- Yes, why not? Relative to the cost of kayaks, PFDs are cheap, and I believe that there is already a requirement to carry one on the boat. And it is not uncommon for states to require the use of things such as seat belts, motorcycle helmets, and in some cases, bicycle helmets. People grouse about the great "loss" of rights that these requirements entail, but surely thousands of people are alive today who otherwise would not be because of these same laws. In society in general, less damage is better than more damage, less death is better than more death. Now it seems to me that there would never be a time when someone shouldn't wear a PFD, except while using the kayak as a diving platform. Other than that, is there anyone who would recommend that a PFD not be worn? If so, I would like to hear that argument. If PFDs should always be worn, then why not require people to wear them? Requiring PFDs would not guarantee that all people would wear them, nor does the wearing of a PFD guarantee survival. But requiring PFDs would have the effect of increasing their use, in the same way that mandatory seat belt laws have increased seat belt usage. And even if a PFD doesn't guarantee survival, at least it gives the person a much better chance. So why not require them? jim holman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Other than that, is there > anyone who would recommend that a PFD not be worn? If > so, I would like to hear that argument. I often paddle without wearing a lifejacket although I have one with me because it is a legal requirement. I do this because it is more comfortable (particularly in warm weather). I do it in circumstances that if I tipped over and could not get into my boat my life would not be in much danger. For example, I frequently paddle up and down a shoreline near my house never more than 20' from shore. I take that added risk of not hearing a lifejacket because the added risk is very small. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:06 PM 4/18/02 -0700, Robert Livingston & Pam Martin wrote: > > Other than that, is there > > anyone who would recommend that a PFD not be worn? If > > so, I would like to hear that argument. > >I often paddle without wearing a lifejacket although I have one with me >because it is a legal requirement. > >I do this because it is more comfortable (particularly in warm weather). A better solution would be to buy a more comfortable PFD. When I bought my first kayak I was looking at their PFD's and the woman that sold it to me (who's actually become a pretty good friend) gave me the following advice: "Get a PFD that is comfortable. If it's not comfortable, you're not going to want to wear it. If you are not wearing it, it's not going to be doing it's job" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
With all due respect, Jim, why don't we just cut to the chase and legislate that people not get out of bed in the morning. That would sure eliminate a lot of problems. Seriously, whatever has happened to the concept of personal responsibility. Quite frankly I don't have a bit of sympathy for people who die doing stupid things, whether out of irresponsibility or ignorance. I'm a private pilot but I've practically quit because the fun has pretty much been legislated out of it and the resulting costs are beyond my budget. I used to SCUBA dive but the certification requirements made it more of a hassle that it is worth, IMO. We even used to make our own tanks out of fire extinguishers before that was made verboten. Never had a problem with them if we used the appropriate safety precautions. Back when I was riding motorcycles the Virginia legislature tried to mandate seat belts for them. Some do-gooder who had never ridden a bike thought that since it worked for cars that it should work for motorcycles. And yes, I am a personal freedom freak but I also wear my PFD while kayaking (though it is often unzipped). Where does it stop and why do you even care if I kill myself or not?? Back to lurking, Dave G. The other Poquoson, Va paddler (heavy into personal responsibility) At 16:53 4/18/02, siguiriya_at_attbi.com wrote: >Steve writes: > . . . why don't we also legislate and require the use >of . . . >13. PFD (worn not carried) >---------------------------------------- >Yes, why not? > <snip a bunch> >jim holman > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, Dave, to answer your question of not getting out of bed.... If we legislate that, then the masses will begin to develop bed sores, and their muscles will start to atrophie (sp?). This, in due course, will lead to new legislation toward bed manufacturer's, and the safety of their product. Which will, in turn again, lead to new legislation regarding the home builder's for building more accessible homes (for whom I don't know)... it is the never ending story... What we really need to do here is completely re-vamp our legislative body, and how it thinks. Their whole premise is to: 1) Get elected: to do that, they make promises they can't keep 2) Once elected, they need to 'make new laws' to cover all the promises they made but could not keep. Maybe we are all better off back in caves??? Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, Like I asked; Where does it end? But then, I think you understand the issue quite well. IMO, our (U.S.) fed, state, and local gov'ts work best when they can't get anything done as is often the case in our two party system. All to often, nowadays, they find ways to infringe on somebodies freedom under the guise of safety and/or security. I'm against most of this. On another note, yesterday I was checking out a beach I used to hang out at during my teens. It's a five or so mile stretch on the lower Chesapeake in Hampton, Va. I thought it might be a good place to try out some "off the beach" kayaking. In the old days (30+ years ago), there was a huge open field behind a bulkhead that allowed plenty of parking for beach goers. Now, somebody has built homes and eliminated any public access except through a city "wildlife preserve". There is very little parking and "stay on the trail" rules would require a half mile or more of a walk to the water. Also, the park is one of those that is only open from sunrise to sunset. The private developers (who also seem to run city politics) have effectively sealed off this wonderful beach to the public at large. No wonder that I'm getting progressively grumpier as I get older. No caves around here, unfortunately. Just lots of suburbia and a little bit of quiet marsh. :-))))) Dave G. Poquoson, Va At 11:52 4/19/02, Scott wrote: >Well, Dave, to answer your question of not getting out of bed.... >If we legislate that, then the masses will begin to develop bed sores, and >their muscles will start to atrophie (sp?). This, in due course, will lead >to new legislation toward bed manufacturer's, and the safety of their >product. <snip stuff> >Maybe we are all better off back in caves??? > >Scott Simpson >Anchorage Alaska > >"There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" >Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
First. I think the idea of free lessons is interesting and I will take it into consideration. Might also make the customers interested in follow up courses. Pfd´s. just for the sake of argument A pfd makes it harder to re-enter my kayak Makes it harder to get under water for a re-entry and roll As long as I can hold on to my boat I don't need a pfd If the worst happens and I lose my boat it only prolongs the pain. By the way, I always wear my pfd. Havkajakcenter Svendborg v/ Lenze Middelberg Skaregaardsvej 9 Skovballe DK 5700 Svendborg (+45) 62541920 lenze_at_naturtur.dk www.havkajakcenter.dk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> On 18 Apr 2002 at 14:09, ScanSport wrote: > > > I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for > > the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How do we > > define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? I thought that unless you are a professional kayak guide/tour operator (IOW: ability to take a tax write-off on your kayak), then all other kayaking is recreational. ? However, some professionals would argue that their "job" still falls under the category of recreational as defined by the following definition :-) Recreation (from dictionary.com): The act of recreating, or the state of being recreated; refreshment of the strength and spirits after toil; amusement; diversion; sport; pastime. n : an activity that diverts or amuses or stimulates We could handle it like our US Homeland Defense... color code kayaks for - safe, sorta safe, risky, downright dangerous to be out in on water (yellow is already colored for being shark-risky :-) Maybe the paddler should be color-coded instead. cheers, jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:21 PM 4/18/02 -0700, Jackie Fenton wrote: > > On 18 Apr 2002 at 14:09, ScanSport wrote: > > > > > I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for > > > the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How > do we > > > define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? I think I can up with a reasonable definition but whether or not anyone else agrees with it is another story. It's fairly easy to define a recreational vs. touring kayak based on length and width specifications and start adding features such as bulkheads. Basically, if it's under 12' long, more than 26" wide, and has one or no bulkheads its's a recrational kayak...unless it's a whitewater kayak. >I thought that unless you are a professional kayak guide/tour operator >(IOW: ability to take a tax write-off on your kayak), then all other >kayaking is recreational. ? As far as I know, Doug Lloyd doesn't get paid to kayak. Would you consider Doug a recreational paddler? I don't think making the distinction between recreational vs. professional works either. I've been on a couple of guided tours where the "guides" were paddling a Keowee or something like it. I like the definition that Canoe and Kayak magazine uses: casual recreational. It implies a casual interest in paddling rather than someone that takes it seriously enough to do an expedition or develop the necessary skills to paddle in difficult conditions. It's sort of like the difference between someone that jogs just for exercise and someone that starts training for and entering 10K races. When I used to ski downhill a lot I was on a corporate racing team. We'd often meet to run practice gates or get into a racing clinic. When we were skiing we were focusing on the competitive aspect of the sport rather than the recreational aspect although one could say we were still participating in recreation. An interesting term that some would use to describe the time when we were not actually running race courses or practicing racing technique was "free skiing". In a sense, non-recreational kayaking is sort of competitive. even if you're only competing with yourself. >However, some professionals would argue >that their "job" still falls under the category of recreational as >defined by the following definition :-) > >Recreation (from dictionary.com): >The act of recreating, or the state of being recreated; refreshment >of the strength and spirits after toil; amusement; diversion; sport; >pastime. n : an activity that diverts or amuses or stimulates > >We could handle it like our US Homeland Defense... color code kayaks >for - safe, sorta safe, risky, downright dangerous to be out in on >water (yellow is already colored for being shark-risky :-) > >Maybe the paddler should be color-coded instead. What does it mean if you've got the Paddlewise logo tatooed on your butt? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> 13. PFD (worn not carried) > ---------------------------------------- > Yes, why not? Studies have shown that seat belts in cars save lives. The studies pointed to the fact that more people survived automobile accidents, or were less severely injured, while wearing seat belts then did those who were not. It's simply a matter of statistics. Now I am not aware of any like studies having been conducted about wearing pfd's in kayaks. Anecdotal stories about how "I would've died, by golly, had I not been wearing my trusty pfd," simply don't cut it. And while I have not made any formal studies into the matter myself, it would seem to me that from the stories I have read about kayak deaths there seems to be a pretty even split between those who have died with their pfd's on, and those who died without one. Hardly compelling evidence about the effectiveness of pfd's. We are required to carry pfd's in our kayaks NOT because they are kayaks, but because they are boats. The regulations regarding carrying lifejackets in boats apply to general recreational boating, of which category we as kayakers happen to fall into. You are not required to wear your pfd when you are attending a wedding reception on a yacht, and neither are you required to wear them while out kayaking. As I have stated so many times in the past, anything you can say about the lifesaving attributes of the pfd in sea kayaking can just as easily be applied to helmets. So why aren't any of rallying together to have a law passed requiring that helmets should ALWAYS be worn while kayaking? Here we go again! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now I am not aware of any like studies having been conducted about wearing pfd's in kayaks. Anecdotal stories about how "I would've died, by golly, had I not been wearing my trusty pfd," simply don't cut it. And while I have not made any formal studies into the matter myself, it would seem to me that from the stories I have read about kayak deaths there seems to be a pretty even split between those who have died with their pfd's on, and those who died without one. Well, it's a difficult thing to gather together sufficient numbers of accident reports. Many don't even get to paddlers' attention. Still others imply paddling events but are not; for example a fishermen on a small pond using a beat up boat. He was fishing, just happened to use a canoe, hence was automatically a paddler. Here in NJ I often see articles concerning drownings on the rivers involving canoeists which are never reported to the paddling community otherwise. They remain local events. Perhaps nowadays with the greater use of the internet we can be more readily made aware of these. So far as I know, no accidents or fatalities of this kind are required to be reported anywhere. Nonetheless there are some collections of information. Pennsylvania does an annual review of boating accidents with a view to working out why they happened and what might have been done to prevent them. In the whitewater community, Charlie Walbridge has been working for decades on such reportage and analysis. At least there, there is abundant evidence of the utility of PFDs. Charlie once wrote that merely wearing one could cut the fatality rate in half. Since the Delaware River above Port Jervis became a Wild & Scenic River about 1981, NPS has kept such records. Since that year there have been 34 paddling related drownings on the river. Of those, 32 victims did NOT wear a pfd. The remaining two had them on, but so loosely they were immediately stripped off. Surprisingly, Alcohol was not a major factor, nor was the kind of boat. I really don't think that more efficient statistical sampling procedures would enhance the impact of that observation. No one, no paddler, who wore a properly fastened pfd has died on that part of the river in 20 years. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > > 13. PFD (worn not carried) > > ---------------------------------------- > > Yes, why not? > > Studies have shown that seat belts in cars save lives. The studies pointed > to the fact that more people survived automobile accidents, or were less > severely injured, while wearing seat belts then did those who were not. It's > simply a matter of statistics. > Now I am not aware of any like studies having been conducted about wearing > pfd's in kayaks. Anecdotal stories about how "I would've died, by golly, had > I not been wearing my trusty pfd," simply don't cut it. And while I have not > made any formal studies into the matter myself, it would seem to me that from > the stories I have read about kayak deaths there seems to be a pretty even > split between those who have died with their pfd's on, and those who died > without one. Hardly compelling evidence about the effectiveness of pfd's. Anecdotal stories are valid and should not be so quickly dismissed if the person in the story can really point out how wearing the PFD did indeed save his or her life. I won't belabor the list once more with my own story of how wearing a PFD saved me from almost certain death but I would be glad to recap it to you in private email. You just have to trust that I am of sound judgment and discerning enough to know the danger it protected me from and that without it I would have been in every likelihood dead. As for the statistics of how many fatalities were with people wearing PFDs vs. not wearing one, The Coast Guard figures are quite overwhelming lopsided, i.e. many more deaths with no PFD worn than with one warn. And, in any case, most of those deaths involving PFD wearers were due to something else, for example hypothermia or being hit by a boat. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When we paddle with a group I think we have responsibilities to the group as well as to ourselves. Yes, wearing a PFD or dressing for immersion is a personal responsiblity. And, yes, if someone capsizes in cold water without a PFD or immersion clothing, they are the ones most likely to be killed or to learn a hard lesson. But their bad judgement does not affect them alone. It affects their families and friends, it affects those who put themselves at risk to save a fool. While I agree with those who say more regulation will not solve the problem, I do think I have a right to say that I will not paddle with someone who refuses to wear their PFD. I have a right to say I will not go on a trip with someone who does not have the gear they need to take care of themselves. I have a right to expect that if someone wants to paddle with me they will stay close enough to be helped or to help others in the group. Likewise, those who think I'm too rigid in my expectations are free to paddle with people who have different standards. Dana Dickson Steve Holtzman wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Do I wear a PFD every time I paddle---ABSOLUTELY. But I > CHOOSE to wear it. > Does that mean I can tell someone else they HAVE to--no. But I will > certainly tell them that I would feel better if they were > and that I would > not want to jeopardize my own safety to help them if they > don't want take > some simple precautions to help themselves. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Dickson, Dana A." wrote: > > I do think I have a right to say that I will not paddle with someone who > refuses to wear their PFD. I have a right to say I will not go on a trip > with someone who does not have the gear they need to take care of > themselves. I agree 100 percent. I have said that everybody should have the right to die any way he wants, but that does not mean he has to do it in my face. I think you should be clear on your reasons, because you will be asked for them. If I force someone to wear a PFD (and I do!) he will ask "Why?". My answer is: "You will ruin my day if you drown, so if you want to drown, do it somewhere else." Whether someone has a responsibility to his family, I'd say "yes", but to his friends... We can define what we want from our own friendships, but let everybody define that for himself. Someone that tries to take away my right to die is no friend of mine. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> At 02:21 PM 4/18/02 -0700, Jackie Fenton wrote: > > On 18 Apr 2002 at 14:09, ScanSport wrote: > > > > > I am only trying to find a way to make recreational boats safer for > > > the "uninformed". But you are touching on my main problem here: How > do we > > > define what is a recreational kayak vs non-recreational? Just for clarification, I didn't write the above. I am not trying to find a way to make "recreational boats" safer for the uninformed. I don't think safer kayaking will occur by categorizing boat design. It could even encourage the opposite (tough guys taking boats out of their skill level into conditions out of their skill level because they don't want to be classified as wimps - or folks thinking that now they have the "appropriate" kayak, they are prepared for *any* conditions... sort of like the false sense of security some get with collecting safety gear without collecting skills). IMO, ignorance and/or inexperience (sometimes carelessness or bad luck) are the problems. All kinds of kayak designs have safely brought tons of paddlers back to harbor without incident. The trouble usually begins when conditions change for an unprepared paddler who would still be in trouble regardless of the design of their kayak. > >I thought that unless you are a professional kayak guide/tour operator > >(IOW: ability to take a tax write-off on your kayak), then all other > >kayaking is recreational. ? > > As far as I know, Doug Lloyd doesn't get paid to kayak. Would you consider > Doug a recreational paddler? If Doug doesn't kayak for enjoyment, then what else does he do it for? I'll repeat the definition for recreation: "refreshment of the strength and spirits after toil; amusement; diversion; sport; pastime. n : an activity that diverts or amuses or stimulates" That pretty much sums up the reports I've read on Doug's kayaking experiences. Those of us that aren't kayaking for pay, are doing it because we enjoy it. That's recreation. And some who enjoy kayaking are getting paid. That's damn lucky :-) > I don't think making the distinction between recreational vs. professional > works either. I've been on a couple of guided tours where the "guides" > were paddling a Keowee or something like it. This is my point. I think the more appopriate distinction should be about the level of experience a kayaker has for *that* activity, not boat design. > I like the definition that Canoe and Kayak magazine uses: casual > recreational. It implies a casual interest in paddling rather than someone > that takes it seriously enough to do an expedition or develop the necessary > skills to paddle in difficult conditions. Again, this is my point. It's about the individuals rather than boat design. > What does it mean if you've got the Paddlewise logo tatooed on your butt? You have no imagination when it comes to tattoos? ? cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/19/02 10:54:14 AM Central Daylight Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: . The salesman is not likely going to explain that while the $500 recreational kayak made of a material that has extra floation might float a couple of inches higher than a $400 recreational kayak with a standard polyethylene layup when it's full of water (because neither has float bags to displace water), neither one of them can actually be paddled at that point. The only real advantage of a kayak that floats higher in the water when it's full of water is that it would be easier to recover in a search and rescue effort. > > I have a question, with no desire to start an argument, I honestly don't know the answer. Will a poly kayak, filled to the brim with water, with no bulkhead compartments and no added flotation, actually float? Several posts in this thread have implied that a poly rec kayak will not sink. Since I have no desire to gather any empirical evidence on my own, does anyone know for sure? Dan Williams *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
DANJW_at_aol.com wrote: > I have a question, with no desire to start an argument, I honestly don't know > the answer. Will a poly kayak, filled to the brim with water, with no > bulkhead compartments and no added flotation, actually float? Several posts > in this thread have implied that a poly rec kayak will not sink. Since I have > no desire to gather any empirical evidence on my own, does anyone know for > sure? > > Dan Williams > A poly kayak without any floatation will sink. Usually these boats are delivered with just a bit of foam, so that they will just float. I strongly suggest you GET the empirical evidence, if you are talking about your own kayak. Find a shallow beach, where you can easily rescue a sunken craft, and try it out. Find out how the boat paddles with different amounts of water in it, when the stern will sink behind you, when it will become too unstable to paddle for your skills... Test your equipment! Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> As for the statistics of how many fatalities were with people wearing PFDs > vs. not wearing one, The Coast Guard figures are quite overwhelming > lopsided, i.e. many more deaths with no PFD worn than with one warn. I have had these statistics brought up sooooo many times, and I continue to have to point out that these really have nothing to do with this discussion, or even kayaking for that matter. The Coast Guard statistics refer to fatalities related to recreational boating. ALL recreational boating. The fact of the matter is that MOST people DO NOT wear lifejackets while boating. I would be willing to bet that pretty much everyone on this list has gone out on a boat while not wearing a lifejacket. When the overwhelming majority does not wear lifejackets, then it only stands to reason that the overwhelming majority of victims will not be wearing them either. Statistically speaking the very vast majority of fatalities in whitewater boating accidents ARE wearing pfd's. Does this mean that whitewater boaters are safer by not wearing a pfd? Of course not! The vast majority of whitewater boaters wear pfd's all of the time. Therefore the vast majority of whitewater fatalities will be wearing pfd's as well. It's the same thing as the Coast Guard statistics, only in reverse. Neither statistic proves a thing. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In the whitewater community, Charlie Walbridge has been working for >decades on such reportage and analysis. At least there, there is abundant >evidence of the utility of PFDs. Charlie once wrote that merely wearing one >could cut the fatality rate in half. I have been very careful to qualify that I am referring to sea kayaking, not whitewater. > Since the Delaware River above Port Jervis became a Wild & Scenic >River about 1981, NPS has kept such records. Since that year there have been >34 paddling related drownings on the river. Of those, 32 victims did NOT wear >a pfd. The remaining two had them on, but so loosely they were immediately >stripped off. Surprisingly, Alcohol was not a major factor, nor was the kind >of boat. > I really don't think that more efficient statistical sampling >procedures would enhance the impact of that observation. No one, no paddler, >who wore a properly fastened pfd has died on that part of the river in 20 >years. The implication here being that if you are wearing your pfd then nothing bad will ever happen to you. I would sure like to see you try to explain that to all of the people who have died with their pfd's on! You are obviously leaving out some important pieces to the story. For instance, if it is customary for people to not wear a pfd while exploring the Wild & Scenic portion of the Delaware River then I would expect very few of it's victims would be wearing one. That's a simple matter of statistics and really has very little bearing on the effectiveness of wearing a pfd. This is an example of the kind of thinking that so riles me in this argument. It would seem that a number of the pro pfd-ers are so fervent about this topic that they will argue it without logic, without reason --- it's like arguing with a religious zealot! "Don't bother me with the facts," they declare. "My mind is made up and closed, and there is absolutely nothing at all you can say or do that will sway me!" I have been paddling on the Colorado River where not only pfd's were not worn, but we didn't use sprayskirts, or even paddles, when we were going with the current. I don't think anybody who has done that trip feels that they were ever in any particular danger. Paddling on the Colorado River is not the same as paddling in Baja, which is not the same as paddling in Washington State, which is not the same as paddling in Alaska. To try and come up with a blanket safety regulation that will adequately cover all of these scenarios is ludicrous! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels said: <<<< About the use of PFD's and helmets: Personally, I wear my kayak helmet in the house and in the street, to be safe from falling objects or low clearings in doors. As soon as I hit the open water in my kayak, I take the helmet off: Open water is the least likely place to hit something with your head. >>>> <snip> Yeah, water is fairly soft most of the time, though my water filter company claims there is a problem in some areas with hard water. So, you better wear it just in case. And don't forget to wear it when kayaking around tropical islands with really short people if you are asked to come in and tour their native homes. Other than that, don't you dare paddle without your PFD -- Person Floating Device. Makes the Coast Guard's job a lot easier trying to locate your dead, drowned, hypothermic, crab-chewed, blue-lipped body. And of course, I assume you always wear some kind of clothing. Seeing a wrinlked, white-clammy/damp-skinned, gray body-haired, sunken-chested European man in the raw can certainly be a real danger to your paddling companions on a long crossing where they are already prone to vomiting. You didn't mention clothing in your post, so I was a bit concerned, knowing you European types. Other than those issues, the only other thing you should always be wearing while sea kayaking, is of course, your kayak -- though I've been found at sea a few times not wearing my boat, but rather an expression of embarresment and dismay. I'm thinking of making up a petition to send to government asking for seat-belt legislation for cockpitted kayaks. Anyone like to sign your name? Doug (home, bored, wearing a Holter monitor that says on it "Do not get wet". You think they could make waterproof units you can roll with!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > And of course, I assume you always wear some kind of clothing. Seeing a > wrinlked, white-clammy/damp-skinned, gray body-haired, sunken-chested > European man in the raw can certainly be a real danger to your paddling > companions on a long crossing where they are already prone to vomiting. > You didn't mention clothing in your post, so I was a bit concerned, > knowing you European types. Reminds me of a situation at our club, some years ago. Some new members asked if they could paddle a club-trip naked. Our chairman never missed a beat and replied: "Sure, as long as you wear your PFD and sprayskirt". The issue never came up again. By the way: The typical European you describe is only found in Britain. I think of myself as the Nordic type: 2 meters tall, built like a statue by Michel Angelo. Blond of course, with a tanned face and hands. The rest of my body is brown, not from the sun, but from the Dutch rivers that can develop your photos for you. The American Coast Guard would be proud to have my dead body on board their vessel. They would probably stuff me and keep me hanging in the mast to show off. The bad news for them: I don't paddle without clothes. The good news: I usually wear a tight-fitting, home made, fuzzy rubber cat suit that I sometimes use in public dance performances. A major problem during my kayak instruction sessions is that female students fall desperately in love with me. It is always a great shock for them when I approach them, smiling kindly, start rearranging their clothes, and then, without warning, don't take their clothes OFF but put a PFD ON and zip it up. I hope that helps to ease your concerns. Sorry to hear about the monitor. You got some serious bummers these days! I really miss your trip reports on Paddlewise, but I guess you miss the actual trips even more. All the best, Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott is right about the statistics on PFDs. But I don't need no stinking statistics to get me to wear a PFD. All I need is the knowledge that I'm going to be able to keep my head above water for a lot longer with the PFD on than without it and it is a lot easier to do self-rescue if your head doesn't keep going underwater when you lift your hands out of the water to get it set up. Also, if there is some reason (rare but possible) the PFD is endangering me, it is a lot easier to take it off in the water than it is to put on in the water. I've used the following reasoning with a paddler/photographer (who has far more paddling experience than me-so who am I to tell him what to wear) in an attempt to get him to use his PFD on an open coastal trip. "I realize that it is your decision, but if I happen to take this great picture with you in it I won't be able to get it published in any magazines or use it in our advertising if you aren't wearing a PFD. We are wearing our PFD's. You will be able to sell your pictures that's hardly fair." Not quite a "quote" but you get the idea. Remember the great picture of the guy surfing straight at you in the yellow kayak on the Sea Kayaker cover a few years ago. Same trip, good thing for the photographer we (his surfing models) were wearing our PFD's for him (as well as for our own safety). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: <<<< Scott is right about the statistics on PFDs. But I don't need no stinking statistics to get me to wear a PFD. All I need is the knowledge that I'm going to be able to keep my head above water for a lot longer with the PFD on than without it and it is a lot easier to do self-rescue if your head doesn't keep going underwater when you lift your hands out of the water to get it set up. >>>> <snip> Just for intrest sake, the fellow who died off Victoria recently in the Recreational Kayak incident was supposedly a top lifeguard. Personally, I think it is good that Scott challenges us with regard to our perceptions of safety and gear. I know I did a bit of thinking after his last "rant" and finally settled on the compromise of an inflatable unit. Scott seems to take exception to folks who might restrict a non-PFD wearer from comming on a trip with them, yet he claims to keep personal choice in high regard. If he wishes to remain consistent, then he ought to concede to those who would not want to paddle with the non-PFD'er out of their personal choice. And on the flip side, I've had paddlers refuse to go on extended exposed trips with me if I brought my helmet, 'cause they weren't bringing them, so why did I need one. I conceded, and stayed out of the surf -- but didn't ever paddle on a long trip with these guys again. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:09 AM 4/23/02 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >Personally, I think it is good that Scott challenges us with regard to >our perceptions of safety and gear. I know I did a bit of thinking after >his last "rant" and finally settled on the compromise of an inflatable >unit. It's good to know I'm no longer a voice crying in the wilderness on this. I turned to inflatables a couple years ago and find they're the best of both worlds. If you have the misfortune to be one of those people (I know you aren't, but I am) that have a larger waist than they do a chest, you will find that a conventional Type III PFD is not the best solution, anyway. Most any solid PFD in the water rides up on me to the point where it's a useless encumberance -- and that goes for the $150 PFDs as well as the $15 versions. While the inflatables wear like a Type III, in the water, they're more like a Type II -- they will turn a wearer upright and keep their head out of water, where the conventional Type III that most kayakers wear will not. For that reason alone, iconoclast that I am, I consider that the inflatable Type III is actually safer than the conventional solid PFD. Plus, in hot weather, they're cooler to wear, which is an important consideration in warm weather, especially if you're heavy. Back before I switched, I will admit to on hot days on quiet flatwater where there were few objective dangers and the water was warm, putting the PFD under the deck lines to be legal and damn the purists. I figured that any downside to not wearing a PFD was more than balanced by the danger of heat prostration from wearing one -- and don't give me that "you can always roll to cool off" stuff, since I don't have that good a roll, and probably wasn't wearing the spray skirt for the sake of being cooler, anyway. Anyway, with the advent of the inflatable, that issue has gone away. The PFD that is more comfortable to wear will be worn, and be safer, than the PFD that's not worn because it's not comfortable. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sure has been busy around the old echo the last few days -- PFDs are always a hot topic. But then, so are jet skis, and many other things. Without going into boring history, I'm less a fan of jetskis than most, and PFDs play a peripheral part of the story. But, I heard a story earlier this week that I thought I'd pass along, although it's only marginally on topic, if for no more reason than to lighten up things a bit. A lot of people feel about snowmobile riders the way I feel about jet ski riders -- i.e., they shouldn't be allowed to breed. It seems this farmer called the local conservation officer to complain about some snowmobilers tearing up the back 40. When the CO arrived, he found that things had cooled off and the farmer didn't want to press charges -- as it turned out, with good reason. The snowmobilers thought it would be fun to jump this neat birm behind the barn, and hit it flying -- right into a 10-foot deep manure pond. Guess they should have been wearing PFDs and immersion gear instead of snowmobile suits, but they got out all right. The snowmobiles, however, are still there. Case closed. Wonder what they told their insurance company? In a post earlier today the subject of rolling to cool off came up. On my usual paddling place, I don't do it, partly because I have a roll that is chancy at best, but mostly because whenever I think about doing something in the water, I think about the 450,000 gallons of liquid cow manure some bozo farmer dumped into the stream feeding the lake a couple years ago. Boy, have we had algae problems since! The boat always needs a washdown after I get back from a trip out there. Rolling and rescue practice takes place elsewhere. Ah, the perils of an inland kayaker! -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:45 PM 4/23/02 +0000, Wes Boyd wrote: >In a post earlier today the subject of rolling to cool off came up. On my >usual paddling place, I don't do it, partly because I have a roll that is >chancy at best, but mostly because whenever I think about doing something >in the water, I won't get into your choice of paddling locations but you're concerned about your roll failing when you cool off you could try keeping a foam paddlefloat on the back deck when it's really hot. Just slip it on and capsize (toward the side with the float) and use the paddlefloat to help roll back up. You don't even need to capsize all the way. If you set the paddlefloat in the water such that the paddleshaft is perpendicular to the hull, you can just lean over and let the paddleshaft near the off side hand slide around onto the hull. As you start to go over, lie back onto the water and don't try to raise your head. If the paddlshaft is perpendicular to the boat you can let go with the offside hand and just hang there for as long as you want and then a hip snap will bring you back up. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/23/2002 12:07:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dougl_at_islandnet.com writes: > Scott seems to take exception to folks who might restrict a > non-PFD wearer from comming on a trip with them, yet he claims to keep > personal choice in high regard. If he wishes to remain consistent, then > he ought to concede to those who would not want to paddle with the > non-PFD'er out of their personal choice. > Doug, I am somewhat disappointed to hear this from you. Considering the type of paddling you like to pursue I did not think you were the type to just roll over when the going gets tough. It's not necessarily a matter of personal choice we are talking about here --- it's a matter of freedom! (I probably should not have watched Braveheart again the other day). So what your saying is that if the French regulations regarding kayaking in that country stink --- don't paddle in France! I just finished helping my daughter on a big school project about the civil rights movement. There are several lessons to be learned from that era that I feel are applicable to this discussion. You folks might want to brush up on what that was all about. It is my right, according to the law, to not wear a pfd while paddling a sea kayak. For you to exclude me from your company based solely on the fact that I do not wish to wear one is not a matter of personal freedom any more then it is a matter of personal freedom to restrict black people to the back of the bus! Plain and simple, it's discrimination! If you really feel that it is so important for people to be wearing a pfd while kayaking, then change the law to reflect that. Good luck! But until you do, I am perfectly within my rights in every aspect to decline to wear my pfd on a noncommercial outing. The good news is that I think I'm about done here. We don't need to beat this dead horse anymore :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > dougl_at_islandnet.com writes: > > Scott seems to take exception to folks who might restrict a > > non-PFD wearer from comming on a trip with them, yet he claims to keep > > personal choice in high regard. If he wishes to remain consistent, then > > he ought to concede to those who would not want to paddle with the > > non-PFD'er out of their personal choice. > > I just finished helping my daughter on a big school project about the > civil rights movement. ... It is my right, according to the law, to not > wear a pfd while paddling a sea kayak. For you to exclude me from your > company based solely on the fact that I do not wish to wear one is not a > matter of personal freedom any more then it is a matter of personal freedom > to restrict black people to the back of the bus! Plain and simple, it's > discrimination! Please allow me to be the first to say that this is errant bullshit. > If you really feel that it is so important for people to be > wearing a pfd while kayaking, then change the law to reflect that. Good luck! > But until you do, I am perfectly within my rights in every aspect to decline > to wear my pfd on a noncommercial outing. You certainly are. But it has been made clear that you are not welcome on trips that include many of us here. Which is a pity all around, because someone with your level of skill would doubtless be fun to paddle with. > > The good news is that I think I'm about done here. We don't need to beat this > dead horse anymore :-) No comment. -- Steve (biting my tongue) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > Doug, I am somewhat disappointed to hear this from you. Considering > the type of paddling you like to pursue I did not think you were the > type to just roll over when the going gets tough. Not sure what that has to do with anything. More later... > It's not necessarily a matter of personal choice we are talking about > here --- it's a matter of freedom! (I probably should not have watched > Braveheart again the other day). So what your saying is that if the > French regulations regarding kayaking in that country stink --- don't > paddle in France! No, there is no regulation in North America, in general, to actually have to _wear_ your PFD. Wearing one's PFD was the issue, I believe. The French have always been a little mixed-up about things :-) But correct me if I'm wrong [or pig headed, or anything else! :-) ] on this freedom issue, 'cause I'm just not hitting your vibe. (Hey, my pastor at church played a portion of Braveheart during his sermon recently. Mel Gibson's big head...coming to a church near you!) > > I just finished helping my daughter on a big school project about > the civil rights movement. There are several lessons to be learned > from that era that I feel are applicable to this discussion. You folks > might want to brush up on what that was all about. We home school. My children are taught everything imaginable, from the simple ABC's to helping my children formulate a scientifically valid cosmogony that removes some of the current animosity between theology and science -- including Transcendence and Quantum Gravity theorems [okay, my eldest daughter is only 8, so are saving some of this for later :-) ]. We also teach them religious tolerance and cultural sensitivity. And we certainly have covered aspects of the historical, burgeoning Civil Rights movement in the USA's -- and the racial bigotry espoused by "well-meaning" but flawed-thinkers. And just 'cause we Canuks up here think there is a whole world out there where lessons can also be drawn from, doesn't negate our appreciation of what has transpired south of the 49th. I hope my daughter will be reading "Black Like Me" by white-author John Howard Griffin [he used medical treatments to change the color of his skin, then wrote about his experience travelling through Alabama, Georgia, etc., during 59/60's some time, I think. I guess you have done something similar, not wearing a PFD in the "Deep South" of PFD-wearing land. You certainly have written enough about the intolerance's you suffered. :-) Anyway, we also teach our children something missing from many educational systems, namely critical thinking skills. Mine tell me that the "Civil Rights" argument you are unjustifiably applying in your reply, do not really apply in this forum. Though I understand how the nature of your general Liberal Californian thinking obviates the observation of certain nuances in these discussions :-) > It is my right, according to the law, to not wear a pfd while paddling > a sea kayak. For you to exclude me from your company based solely on > the fact that I do not wish to wear one is not a matter of personal > freedom any more then it is a matter of personal freedom to restrict > black people to the back of the bus! Plain and simple, it's > discrimination! Yes, my friends do the same thing to me if I refuse to wear one on a group outing where there is tacit recognition that conditions warrant wearing one's PFD. I accept that. Why can't you? Where restrictions are imposed upon me by fellow paddlers, I then make a choice myself weather to comply or not, or paddle on my own. Also, no one can ultimately say you can't paddle with the group. You can always paddle beside them or even move to the "back of the bus" as they say. Probably no one will want to talk to you anyway if you insist on going. Or, they may simply return to the beach and leave. On club paddles where a PFD is worn to comply with safety guidelines for insurance and liability purposes, there shouldn't even _be_ a question about what to do. And you can always form your own club like the "Liberty and Death Paddling Club of California." Anyway, there is a difference between discrimination and discernment. > If you really feel that it is so important for people to be wearing a > pfd while kayaking, then change the law to reflect that. Good luck! > But until you do, I am perfectly within my rights in every aspect to > decline to wear my pfd on a noncommercial outing. Adding the club proviso above, I'd agree with you. And on self-guided paddles on exposed trips, I've certainly learned to be discriminating when it comes to discerning the correct time to take off my PFD cause it is just too hot. Though usually, we are all soaking in perspiration (those with glasses on, steam up with rotary cooling) and all looking at each other in concern, until one of us finally is brave enough to say : "Okay, okay, is it okay if we all remove them before someone faints!?" Yes Scott, we are a sad, had, bunch of paddlers -- most of us anyway, myself included. > > > The good news is that I think I'm about done here. We don't need to > beat this dead horse anymore :-) That would be rad man. We can change horses and saddle up Sponsons anytime you are ready :-) Sorry if you missed my whole point previously, though. It had nothing to do with you not wearing your PFD at appropriate times or trying to disgrace the perceived safety that PFD-wearing irrationally implies. And Scott, you should know me better by now: When the going gets tough and I roll over, it's usually on purpose to have a bit of fun. However, I'm fully Coast Guard compliant every time I go out in terms of gear, both in terms of the "Rules and Reg's" and more importantly, the "spirit" of those rules -- which I find reasonable and sensible -- and only marginally infringe my "rights" ("rights" always comes with "responsibilities" too, right?). And hey, for me, I'm going to enjoy the freedom of my new inflatable PFD. Yes brothers and sisters, thank God almighty, I'm free at last. Doug Lloyd (who still thinks some form of PFD, worn when needed, will improve his chances of "getting a life".) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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In a message dated 4/23/2002 7:18:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cramer_at_coe.uga.edu writes: > Please allow me to be the first to say that this is errant bull&*#_at_. OK, so perhaps I went a little too far with that one :-) (note to myself; next month when this topic comes up again, scratch the civil rights argument) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry for my last rant. It was off topic somewhat, off the wall some places, and unfair to Scott partially. I really need to get out paddling soon! Doug Lloyd KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > Doug, I am somewhat disappointed to hear this from you. Considering > the type of paddling you like to pursue I did not think you were the > type to just roll over when the going gets tough. Not sure what that has to do with anything. More later... > snip< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The article in the Cape Cod Times http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/swampedkayaker26.htm doesn't tell much but I know the water is not 50 and the air was about 50. Nevertheless he was wearing a PFD and can tell the story to his children. Hal " I can think of nothing pleasanter than to be close to danger or discomfort, but still be protected, preferably by one's own foresight and effort" W. Stegner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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