I local club is going on a paddle and has invited our club. They want everyone to sign a release form. Are there any legal types out there who can share their opinion as to the validity of these forms ( without having seen it)? I am not going on this particular paddle due to time constraints. I just don't see the point of distributing these things to paddle on a public canal. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/8/2002 8:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net writes: > I just don't see the point of distributing [disclaimers] to paddle on a > public canal. > Your concern is shared by many people, Jim. Unfortunately, with the growth of the sport and the number of untrained newbies out there, many clubs --- with and without advice from counsel --- have written up disclaimers primarily in an attempt to protect the trip leader and the club's leadership and infrastructure from lawsuits. It's a litigious world, and, unfortunately, the advocates of these legal instruments --- which, like many documents, are probably not worth the paper they're printed on --- have a point. And that's why many old hands in my local club --- and I include myself --- won't lead or organize club trips anymore. It's not a highlight of the kayaking world. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In a message dated 5/8/2002 8:01:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net writes: > > > > I just don't see the point of distributing [disclaimers] to paddle on a > > public canal. I am not a legal beaver but here is what I know. Such releases are to help the club cover its liability exposure and it has nothing to do with the public nature of the water and launch spot. Also, in some cases, such releases can be seen as a form of coersion. I think the legal term is something like a "yellow contract" meaning your were forced to sign. This occurs for example if you drive 4 hours to go on an event and then at the last minute a release form is shoved in your face. The only way you can participate is if you sign and you have gone a long way out of your way to get there. However, if you were told beforehand that you would have to sign a release then you did have a choice of not going through great pains to get there. Clubs, of course, can insist on signing a waiver annually with your new membership or renewal. Releases and waivers are funny. They are not an absolute guarantee against being sued and losing. But if they state all the possible dangers adequately and the organizers have shown prudent behavior and exercised generally accepted precautions, then it would be that much harder for a law suit to bite them. That is why clubs and symposia insist on wearing PFDs at their events. That is why symposia have chase boats out on the water and delineate a narrow area in which boats can be tried out. Etc. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > > I local club is going on a paddle and has invited our club. They want everyone to sign a release form. Are there any legal types out there who can share their opinion as to the validity of these forms ( without having seen it)? I am not going on this particular paddle due to time constraints. I just don't see the point of distributing these things to paddle on a public canal.< Part of the purpose of the release is informed consent. People have a tendency to get in trouble and then blame someone, saying "You never told me this was risky." At least one major lawsuit has hinged on informed consent, and the outfitter lost. There aren't that many hazards on the Augusta Canal, but there was recently a WW fatality on a fairly flat section of a Class II river in Tennessee, so risk awareness is important. This is an issue if there is someone "in charge." Atlanta Kayakers avoids the issue by not having officers, dues, or trip leaders. Georgia Canoeing Association has more structure--though we have "coordinators," not leaders for trips--so there are waivers. I take responsibility for people in clinics, so I have my own, based loosely on the ACA waiver. You may find interesting. Be sure to read the fine print. http://home.earthlink.net/~cramersec/MyRelease.html -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I was a river guide years ago our lawyer explainned it this way. Liability release forms cover you if there is an accident, provided everything possible was done to prevent it. However if the accident can be proven to be the result of neligenence, inexperienced guides or someone just plain screwing up then the liability release form was worthless. In the camping buisness which I am now in, if you get taken to court the jury will be asking whether you did everything you posibility could have to prevent the accident. that is why I spent much of this winter building safer bunks in each of our cabins. Unfortunately in these days and times when people bring law suit over rediculas things. (A couple years ago someone sued a canoe livery company in Penn. because there was a drowning and they said the company should have had life guards stationed all along the river. THE JUDGE AGREED! Thankfully an appeals judge overturned it) However a well written liability can help protect a local club or outfitter so I am not surprize they want you to sign one. Also accidents can happen on a protected local cannal. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Carter Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] signing a disclaimer (A couple years ago someone sued a canoe livery company in Penn. because there was a drowning and they said the company should have had life guards stationed all along the river. THE JUDGE AGREED! Thankfully an appeals judge overturned it) --Not quite. It was the judge who instructed the jury that swimming pool safety rules applied to the situation -- including lifeguards every 100 ft., essentially forcing the guilty decision. The case was appealed, but before it came to trial there was a settlement. --And the decision, etc. was sealed. So nobody knows just how it came out or what provisions may have been done... The local repercussions of this unknown result are still evident in the region. Local clubs usually have their own insurance policies for liability. Many trips are also on the schedules of more than one club. All of them require an annual waiver be signed. If you come to a multiply posted trip you are covered by the insurance of your own club. If you come as a guest to a unique club sponsored trip, then you must sign a guest waiver for that club. Some clubs do not allow non-members but I consider that a mistake. It inhibits new memberships and in one case I know of, the club has become so isolated they have become known as an unsafe club -- they have nothing to compare their practices to.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe, thanks for the clarification. Bob > > From: Bob Carter > > >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] signing a disclaimer > > >(A couple years ago someone sued a canoe livery company > > >in Penn. because there was a drowning and they said the company should have > > >had life guards stationed all along the river. THE JUDGE AGREED! Thankfully > > >an appeals judge overturned it) > > > > > > --Not quite. It was the judge who instructed the jury that swimming pool >safety rules applied to the situation -- including lifeguards every 100 ft., >essentially forcing the guilty decision. The case was appealed, but before it >came to trial there was a settlement. --And the decision, etc. was sealed. >So nobody knows just how it came out or what provisions may have been done... >The local repercussions of this unknown result are still evident in the >region. > > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: >...They want everyone to sign a release form....I just don't see the >point of distributing these things to paddle on a public canal. I think the point is if something bad happens, and the "victim's" lawyer sues. Or, even if they're a nice person and don't try to sue, their insurance company might.... Protects the trip leaders and officers from the club from being sued, probably. As a trip leader and an officer of my club, I would be a target of being sued...even if I didn't do anything wrong and someone else in the club did...and so am in favor of waivers. I'd rather there were no personal injury attorneys...that would make things a lot simpler!!! Shawn Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim, I don't know about your locality, but in most US states, a waiver isn't worth the paper it's written on --- you can't contract away liability. In fact, a waiver may actually make a real liability situation worse by the acknowledgement of danger. Humor them, sign whatever, and go have fun. Wayne Not a lawyer, but have argued with many of them professionally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my sea kayaking & homebrewing page: http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html ----- Original Message ----- From: <jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 8:02 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] signing a disclaimer > I local club is going on a paddle and has invited our club. They want everyone to sign a release form. Are there any legal types out there who can share their opinion as to the validity of these forms ( without having seen it)? I am not going on this particular paddle due to time constraints. I just don't see the point of distributing these things to paddle on a public canal. > > Jim et al > > ************************************************************************** * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** * > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In Oregon and Washington a liability waiver is worth alot. I don't know where Wayne come from but we are very serious about the whole liability waiver thing. In a world where Disneyland rides and Wally Worlds are the norm, the Joe Q. Publics needs to be reminded that THEY are ultimately responsible for themselves and hard as they may try, the guide/ instructor/ provider might make a mistake. He's trained to take this person out into this enviro but dudu may hit the fan. The BIG worth only comes when the guide/ school/ whatever is able to back up what they are stating in the waiver. Let's say Johnny gets hurt on a kayak trip and sues. Gary the guide gets pulled into court. Larry the lawyer gets on his case. 1. Gary has a cool signed release. 2. He works for a together company with a documented history of safety. 3. He's in the proper enviro with all the right kit. 4. He's trained and certified and has a up to date log. 5. He did what any normal guide in this situation would of done to prevent the incident. IMHO Gary is now in a fairly good position to fight Larry and Johnny. Change ANY of the above to a " OOPS, Gary forgot to......." and Larry is one happy lawyer. Steve (who's been getting peeps to sign release forms for almost 2 decades) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't know about your locality, but in most US states, a waiver isn't worth the paper it's written on --- you can't contract away liability. In fact, a waiver may actually make a real liability situation worse by the acknowledgement of danger. There are a number of outdoor clubs in NJ for paddlers, hikers, climbers, etc. So far as I can recollect there hasn't been a case in the state where one of these clubs, or a leader, has been sued. So, can't really answer that; nothing to go on. That case mentioned before wherein a livery operator was sued occurred in Pennsylvania, just across the river. I'm also involved in Audubon, and a few other charitable orgs in NJ and there has always been a certain sense of inhibition by more affluent potential contributors/participants because of that risk. This included EMT volunteer orgs as well.. Recently a law was passed in NJ effectively holding harmless such officers of charitable or non-profit organizations. This helped a lot but it's new and I wouldn't be surprised to see it tested someday. Nonetheless this risk, and the fact that the fear of such litigation is working against otherwise worthy endeavours is recognized here. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: "Steve Scherrer" <flatpick_at_teleport.com> > In Oregon and Washington a liability waiver is worth alot. I don't know > where Wayne come from but we are very serious about the whole liability > waiver thing. Here in Connecticut, we have a thing laughingly called "tort reform" that actually made waivers and settlement releases all but worthless. You can get sued, settle out of court, have the "victim" sign a release, and then have them sue you for making them sign the settlement agreement, or to challenge it later on. People still take waivers for various activities, but they seem to offer very little protection. As a club officer myself, I made sure I had plenty of liability insurance before I accepted the position. Can't be too careful. However, I knowingly assume the risk of being sued because I love paddling too much to just sit home worrying about ambulance chasers. Wayne -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my sea kayaking & homebrewing page: http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html ----- Original Message ----- > > In a world where Disneyland rides and Wally Worlds are the norm, the Joe Q. > Publics needs to be reminded that THEY are ultimately responsible for > themselves and hard as they may try, the guide/ instructor/ provider might > make a mistake. He's trained to take this person out into this enviro but > dudu may hit the fan. The BIG worth only comes when the guide/ school/ > whatever is able to back up what they are stating in the waiver. > > Let's say Johnny gets hurt on a kayak trip and sues. Gary the guide gets > pulled into court. Larry the lawyer gets on his case. > 1. Gary has a cool signed release. > 2. He works for a together company with a documented history of safety. > 3. He's in the proper enviro with all the right kit. > 4. He's trained and certified and has a up to date log. > 5. He did what any normal guide in this situation would of done to prevent > the incident. > > IMHO Gary is now in a fairly good position to fight Larry and Johnny. > > Change ANY of the above to a " OOPS, Gary forgot to......." and Larry is one > happy lawyer. > > Steve (who's been getting peeps to sign release forms for almost 2 decades) > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Am I correct in my understanding that ACA requires a liability release for all of the club led trips and sessions? We often have the same people week after week who complain about having to sign a new waiver each time and it's a lot of paper work for the leaders. Is there anything such as an ACA waiver that one could sign with their membership renewal that works for the whole year? Chris *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At the risk of jumping into this little snakepit, I belong to one club that is ACA affiliated. We do indeed sign one annual waiver with our renewals, and do not sign waivers for each individual trip. Guests (non-members) are not allowed on these trips. Another club I belong to (ADK, not ACA affiliated) that I referred to yesterday does indeed require every trip participant to sign a trip-specific waiver for every trip. These are a lot of paperwork and I have no idea why they do it this way, maybe just because they tend toward bureacracy. Guests, however, are welcome on these trips (with signed waiver). Oh, as an aside to those who like to follow links in mail messages - Yahoo likes to tag along some links to their 'interesting' products at the end of messages. These have nothing whatsoever to do with any portion of my reality. If I want to refer you to a link I'll embed it in the text. --- "Chris L. Kuhlman" <clk_at_ckpro.com> wrote: > Am I correct in my understanding that ACA requires > a liability release for > all of the club led trips and sessions? .....snip LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>Am I correct in my understanding that ACA requires a liability release = for all=0D of the club led trips and sessions? We often have the same people week af= ter=0D week who complain about having to sign a new waiver each time and it's a = lot=0D of paper work for the leaders. Is there anything such as an ACA waiver th= at one=0D could sign with their membership renewal that works for the whole year?<<= =0D =0D ACA only requires a waiver for ACA-sanctioned and -insured events, which doesn't describe many weekly club-led trips. The Georgia Canoeing Association, our local ACA-affiliate has its own waiver for club trips (w= e have a _lot_ of structure), and adds on the ACA waiver for clinics and ra= ces that we buy ACA insurance for.=0D But a yearly waiver defeats the informed consent part of the waiver cover= age which is, IMO, one of the most useful parts.=0D Steve [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type image/gif] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For ACA purposes at least, ACA members do not have to sign the waiver for each trip. They sign a waiver when they become a member and that waiver remains in force for as long as they remain a member. Non-ACA member guests of ACA clubs need to sign a waiver and pay a $5 per trip fee which the clubs send to the ACA to pass on to their liability insurer. Our local club invites guests to show a valid ACA membership card to avoid signing and paying. "Chris L. Kuhlman" wrote: > Am I correct in my understanding that ACA requires a liability release for > all of the club led trips and sessions? -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm Places to Paddle tm - Kayaking - Canoeing - Rafting - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Chris L. Kuhlman" <clk_at_ckpro.com> wrote: >We often have the same people week after week who complain about having to sign a new waiver each time ...Is there anything such as an ACA waiver that one could sign with their membership renewal that works for the whole year? Contact the ACA about Paddle America registration for your club. Discounted membership, plus only one waive to sign per year. Shawn LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Shawn Baker=0D Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] signing a disclaimer=0D "Contact the ACA about Paddle America registration for your club. =0D Discounted membership, plus only one waive to sign per year."=0D =0D I've been a member of ACA for several years, and I don't recall ever sign= ing a waiver when I renew. A check, yes, but not a waiver. I have signed many ACA waivers for clinics, races, etc. Maybe because I don't belong to a Paddle America affiliate.=0D Steve [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type image/gif] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:29 PDT