>By the way, how do you pronounce "Tlingit". I'm simply doing it "T-ling-it", but think the hard "T" may not be correct. > >Rick - Poquoson, Va > > Tlingit pronunciation isn't always easy for those of us who grew up speaking English as a first language! They have 10 or so sounds that we don't have. We were told that we could pronounce 'Tlingit' as 'Klin-get', with a hard 'k' and the accent on the second syllable. That isn't entirely correct, but it is close. (The spelling is from an American mispronunciation of a Russian mispronunciation of the original Tlingit! Is that confusing enough?!) By the way, many now spell 'Kootznoowoo' the way it is supposed to be pronounced -- 'Xootznoowoo'. The 'x' is underlined and pronounced much like the German hard 'g'. (The computer and I are fighting it out .... and the computer is winning. It won't let me underline right now! There is also an 'x' without an underline, but it is pronounced differently.) The accent is on the first syllable. ('Kootznaoowoo' is NOT the correct spelling. He forgot to spell-check the title. OOPS!!) Hope this helps. gladys carter (Bob's paddling partner ...... and Paddlewise lurker) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Funny how pronunciation is so different depending on where you live. We all might think the native Tlingit indians would determine their own manner of speaking their ethnic names. And this is no doubt where you derive your answer. But interestingly enough, note how we say "Berlin" (Germany), whereas those in Deutschland would say something that sounds more like Bayr-leen' (accent on second syllable). And you get different sounds and pronunciations in various parts of Germany too. The town of Berlin, New Hampshire (and surroundings) is where most folks pronounce their town Ber' -lin (same as American manner of saying Berlin, Germany, but with accent on first syllable). Most New Englanders, however, sound the town's name like we speak Berlin, Germany. In the over-two-decades I lived in Alaska I have always heard Tlingit pronounced Klin'-kit (accent on first syllable). But, as I know how terribly difficult it is to make sounds in the well-over-twenty-seven native Alaskan languages (some with only one or two remaining speakers), I would certainly try to say any word as those who speak and live among the natives do. Bob's story is superb, by the way! At 11:01 AM 8/29/2002 -0800, you wrote: > Tlingit pronunciation isn't always easy for those of us who grew up >speaking English as a >first language! They have 10 or so sounds that we don't have. > We were told that we could pronounce 'Tlingit' as 'Klin-get', with a >hard 'k' and the accent >on the second syllable. That isn't entirely correct, but it is close. (The >spelling is from an >American mispronunciation of a Russian mispronunciation of the original >Tlingit! Is that >confusing enough?!) Tom LeTourneau Wells, Maine *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob and all, excellent story. Your last clarification is also relevant to the post about different spellings of the word "kayak". As non-European language, I suppose Greenlandish also had some sounds that were hard to capture in our western alphabet, resulting in a lot of different notations. There also may have been regional differences. I now know of four alternative spellings, being "kayak" (regular English), "kyak" (alternative English and possibly Finnish) "kajak" (official Dutch), and "qayaq" (don't remember where I saw this, but it sure looks authentic Greenlandish enough ;-) regards, Kees (pronounced as "Case", by the way) > By the way, many now spell 'Kootznoowoo' the way it is supposed to be > pronounced -- > 'Xootznoowoo'. The 'x' is underlined and pronounced much like the German > hard 'g'. (The computer and I are fighting it out .... and the computer is > winning. It won't let me underline right now! There is also an 'x' without > an underline, but it is pronounced differently.) The accent is on the first > syllable. ('Kootznaoowoo' is NOT the correct spelling. He forgot to > spell-check the title. OOPS!!) > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 12:46:45 PM PST, Kees van der Meij wrote: > ...and "qayaq" (don't remember where I saw this, but it sure looks > authentic Greenlandish enough ;-) I've seen "qajaq" more often than I've seen "qayaq" :-) Melissa -- PGP public keys: mailto:pgp_keys_at_gmx.co.uk?subject=0x46C29887&Body=Please%20send%20keys *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here are a few I found. Language structure of arctic cultures (see http://courses.washington.edu/anth310/arctic.htm): Aleut-Eskimo (Family) __________________|____________ | | Eskimo (Inuit) Aleut (Sub-family) __________|___________ | | | | Yup'ik Inupiaq Aleut (Language clusters) | | | (3-4 languages) (Dialect chain) (3 dialects) Their words for what we call a kayak: Kaiak (Iņupiaq) see http://www.co.north-slope.ak.us/ihlcbook/murdoch/MUR12/mur12.htm Iqyax (Alwut: Unanax and/or Aliguutax dialects) see http://www.uaf.edu/ans/faculty/aleut.html Qayaq (Inuit: Yup'ik) see http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/eskimo_words_for_snow_derby.html Uluxtax, two holed kayak (Aleut: Unangan) see http://www.alaskanative.net/342.asp Brian Curtiss *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Melissa Reese" <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net> > I've seen "qajaq" more often than I've seen "qayaq" :-) Interestingly enough, I've seen an article that claimed the one was the preferred American spelling and the other, Canadian - though I don't remember which is which. David Zimmerly's book was apparently named "Qajaq" but the Alaskan publisher wanted it "Qayaq" (or maybe it was the other way round and Zimmerly won the argument). Regardless - it was published as Qayaq. Mike PS - Farley Mowat's "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" was published in the US as "The Boat That Wouldn't Float" - our nations clearly don't agree on spelling or grammar! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
wrote: On Thursday, August 29, 2002, at 12:46:45 PM PST, Kees van der Meij wrote:> ...and "qayaq" (don't remember where I saw this, but it sure looks > authentic Greenlandish enough ;-) I've seen "qajaq" more often than I've seen "qayaq" :-)" Unlike their Cherokee cousins I can't recall an Inuit alphabet ever being developed by Intuit to reflect their pronunciations. I could be totally wrong on this and welcome correction, but if that is so and we dictated the spelling in the first place, kaiakk, or caiack is every bit as correct as qayag, kayak, kyak, qujaq or any other word that may mimic the spoken word. Similarly I don't recall a Tlingit alphabet either. While we owe a certain amount of respect to the original speakers, can anyone tell me the difference in how qayag sounds vs kayak vs qajaq when spoken? Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <knelson_at_captivasoftware.com> > Unlike their Cherokee cousins I can't recall an Inuit alphabet ever being > developed by Inuit to reflect their pronunciations. The syllabics used by most First Nations in Canada were found to be inadequate for Inuktitut. It was modified, IIRC mostly through the use of diacritical marks, to try to catch the intricacies of pronounciation. Michael Bradley would probably be able to fill in some details if he's following this thread. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/29/2002 3:03:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, revkayak_at_mtaonline.net writes: > ... By the way, many now spell 'Kootznoowoo' the way it is supposed to be > pronounced -- 'Xootznoowoo'. The 'x' is underlined and pronounced much like > the German hard 'g'. ... A "German hard 'g' "? As opposed to a German soft 'g'? I never really thought about having more than one 'g' in German. A hard 'g' as in "guten Tag"? Actually, I guess, the 'g' in "guten" might be considered softer than the 'g' in "Tag", which is usually pronounced pretty much as if it were a 'k' (in most European languages; at least in those where the 'k' has not morphed into the counter intuitive pronunciation 'ch' -- as in 'tsh' -- in local dialects), sort of like in "guck mal", where the "guck" ends up sounding remarkably like "cook" in most regions of the Federal Republic (with some exceptions in both the new and the old states) at least. I assume that the pronunciation of the 'x' here is in no way related to the way the Mexicans almost leave it out when talking about their country? Or is there perhaps a similarity to the Arabic letter "ghain", often transliterated from Arabic script as 'gh', with the 'h' acting as the softener to the 'g' in analogy to the German (and Arabic) HARD 'ch', which is NOT "tsh", but often written in transliterations as 'kh', a very throaty, Germanic sort of sound? No, I guess not, we were looking for a hard sound. And you thought that a mere 27 Alaskan languages were tricky?!? ;-) Before I jump off at the deep end, though, what's the closest equivalent in English to that "German had 'g' "? Best regards, Ralph "the Kraut" Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > >A "German hard 'g' "? As opposed to a German soft 'g'? I never really >thought about having more than one 'g' in German. > >A hard 'g' as in "guten Tag"? > The German language is nearly completely phonetic. Exceptions are terminal "g" and terminal "d". The g in Tag is pronounced very much like a k and the d in hund is pronounced very much like a T. Otherwise, Gs and Ds are soft. On an early visit to Germany, I nearly got into serious trouble with the terminal g. Wishing to buy some figs, and at the time not knowing the German word for fig I decided to harden the terminal g in the word fig. Using this word, I asked the young lady at the market for that fruit (really a flower). She screamed and I thought she might call the Polezi. She then looked a little closer and asked if I were American. When I admitted to my identity she laughed and called two other young ladies from the rear of the store and then had me repeat my request. She then pointed at me, laughed, and cried "Amerikanisch.'". So if you want to buy a fig in Germany you should ask for Feige. Joe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Joe Sanford" <jsanford1_at_cfl.rr.com> > knowing the German word for fig I decided to harden the terminal g in > the word fig. Using this word, I asked the young lady at the market > for that fruit (really a flower). She screamed and I thought she > might call the Polezi. Makes me laugh - and reminds me of the time my cousin's new husband, visiting us in Montreal, wanted to impress us with his knowledge of French. At a little restaurant, he wanted to order a hot dog (un chien chaud). The waitress came over, he smiled and said "une chiene chaud" (a hot bitch). She slapped him and stomped away. My grandfather, his father-in-law, nearly died laughing. Mike PS - if kayaking takes you to a foreign country, try pointing and smiling rather than opening your mouth and getting into trouble:-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Eh Joe, as a complete german boy I have to tell you: > The German language is nearly completely phonetic. Exceptions are > terminal "g" and terminal "d". The g in Tag is pronounced very much > like a k and the d in hund is pronounced very much like a T. Itīs the other way round! A "g" in "Tag" pronounced like a k would be a Nordic Pronounciation. OK, there are a lot of spellings around here, it depends completely on the area the people are living in. Ask Ralph Hoehn, he is origin from the southern part and had lived also in the very northern part - an extreme difference. People Language from some german parts I really couldnīt understand, for sure! > On an early visit to Germany, I nearly got into serious trouble with > the terminal g. Wishing to buy some figs, and at the time not > knowing the German word for fig I decided to harden the terminal g in > the word fig. Oh, oh! She understand you want to invite her to a "quickie" meeting ... you know? In german there is no terminal k, only a "ck" and thats no "g", no way. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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