Kayakers, I consider sea kayak surfing my specialty. When turning or keeping straight on a wave, I almost always edge on the outside of the turn and rudder on the inside. Occasionally, if I'm at the top of the wave, with the bow and stern out of the water, I'll edge the kayak way over on the inside and rudder on the inside to get straightened out. But overwhelmingly, I edge on the outside of the turn. I'm very happy with my amount of control of a sea kayak in surf, and I've been complimented on it many times. Lately, I've seen a lot of videos of sea kayaks surfing the Skooks wave. Just about every kayaker is edging the sea kayak on the inside of the turn. It seems to me they'd do a lot better to edge on the outside, but nonetheless, they are doing pretty good. I wonder if most of these guys surfing Skooks are whitewater guys, and therefore, aren't familiar with outside edging a sea kayak, or maybe they know something I don't. Admittedly, I surf Southern California waves generated by Pacific swell, but I apply my same techniques to tide rips I've surfed in San Francisco Bay. How do you edge turn your sea kayak in surf or tide rips? Duane www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've always heard dropping the edge in the direction of your turn on a wave -- so opposite of a normal kayak turn on flat water. I think the reason is a mostly having the inside edge of the turn bite into the wave near the front though I wonder if also there's some additional affect from how the wave lifts and pushes the stern. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Duane Strosaker Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:48 PM To: Paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Outside vs. Inside Edge for Turning in Surf Kayakers, I consider sea kayak surfing my specialty. When turning or keeping straight on a wave, I almost always edge on the outside of the turn and rudder on the inside. Occasionally, if I'm at the top of the wave, with the bow and stern out of the water, I'll edge the kayak way over on the inside and rudder on the inside to get straightened out. But overwhelmingly, I edge on the outside of the turn. I'm very happy with my amount of control of a sea kayak in surf, and I've been complimented on it many times. Lately, I've seen a lot of videos of sea kayaks surfing the Skooks wave. Just about every kayaker is edging the sea kayak on the inside of the turn. It seems to me they'd do a lot better to edge on the outside, but nonetheless, they are doing pretty good. I wonder if most of these guys surfing Skooks are whitewater guys, and therefore, aren't familiar with outside edging a sea kayak, or maybe they know something I don't. Admittedly, I surf Southern California waves generated by Pacific swell, but I apply my same techniques to tide rips I've surfed in San Francisco Bay. How do you edge turn your sea kayak in surf or tide rips? Duane www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug and John, Wow, I seem to be alone on this one. I hate to make you watch my own video, again, but if you watch the one linked below, you'll see lots of edging on the outside of the turn. Pay attention to the horizon to see the edging. Also, you'll see me edging on the opposite side I'm ruddering. A lot of times when you see me edge and rudder, you'll notice the kayak come around rather quickly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lw_2nvzONo Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, I do remember watching that vid last time you gave us a link and thinking about what kind of edging you were doing (which leg you were dropping, etc - for a given turn initiation). For straight-in runs with mild turning action it shouldn't be too difficult to do and not worry about tripping up. Not sure how far I'd take it though, myself. I don't think Wayne H teaches it that way. Not sure what the BCU's stance is on this - but they are a bunch of fairies as we all know. You are not, obviously. :-) DL > Doug and John, > > Wow, I seem to be alone on this one. > > I hate to make you watch my own video, again, but if you watch the one > linked below, you'll see lots of edging on the outside of the turn. Pay > attention to the horizon to see the edging. Also, you'll see me edging on > the opposite side I'm ruddering. A lot of times when you see me edge and > rudder, you'll notice the kayak come around rather quickly. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lw_2nvzONo > > Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well, it seems to work for Duane, but I've always found edging on one side while ruddering on the other like chewing gum and walking at the same time! I don't like to complicate things. Mark -----Original Message----- I've always heard dropping the edge in the direction of your turn on a wave -- so opposite of a normal kayak turn on flat water. I think the reason is a mostly having the inside edge of the turn bite into the wave near the front though I wonder if also there's some additional affect from how the wave lifts and pushes the stern. -----Original Message----- Kayakers, I consider sea kayak surfing my specialty. When turning or keeping straight on a wave, I almost always edge on the outside of the turn and rudder on the inside. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In performance paddlecraft surfing (not sea kayaks) one turns on a wave using a brace on the side of the turn to pivot the boat in that direction with the knees and hips while dropping the rail the craft on the same side to make the boat carve the turn - we don't "rudder" the turn. When I surf sea kayaks I tend to still try to pivot the boat around the paddle as I feel this provides a more powerful turn, even though the sea kayak lacks the ability to carve. I've been trying to figure out what the benefits of edging the boat away from the turn would be. Edging is edging, so putting the boat on edge to either side should help the boat turn some. I suppose that edging the boat to the outside of the turn might help expose the rounded hull at the bow to the turn and prevent water from catching the edge, thus facilitating the turn, except that on a wave the bow of the sea kayak is, more times then not, out of the water anyway. As the angle of the boat becomes more acute on the wave one is threaten with a broach and edging the boat to the outside of the attempted turn, or down wave, exposes the chine to catching the oncoming water which greatly increases the chance of capsize. I can't see any advantage to edging to the outside of the turn on a wave over edging to the inside. But if you think it's working for you then knock yourself out. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK, just as I sent off the first e-mail it hit me that I was thinking too much in terms of surf boats and not properly considering the limitations of the sea kayak on a wave. Surfing a sea kayak is pretty much just a game of trying to keep the boat running straight on the wave. So if the boat is trying to run to the left one would try to straighted it out by ruddering on the right and in Duane's case he would edge the boat to the left, or into the wave, which one could argue exposes the rounded hull to the turn and the oncoming water, which could in fact be beneficial to a minor extent. I still prefer to pivot the boat around the brace, but Duane's method does have legs, at least in theory. The next time I have a sea kayak out in the surf I will be sure to give Duane's way a try. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane wrote: How do you edge turn your sea kayak in surf or tide rips? I come from a background of whitewater paddling but started life as a sprint racer, then marathon racer, then slalom racer, now sea kayaker. I learned in a whitewater boat (old school 4 meter boats then the 'shorter' boats - my shortest being really long by today's standards) and found that edging outside, the way we do it in sea kayaks, worked perfectly when surfing a glassy river wave. I often threw away my paddle and did nice zigs and zags on the waves using only outside edging, and an occasional hand, to steer. When I started sea kayaking (in a Romany) I found that edging on a glassy wave, which are few and far between here in Lake Michigan, the same edging to the outside of the turn worked really well. I can still, just as in a slalom boat, lift the paddle up and steer on the wave. At least until the boat gets too far out of line and broaches. I seem to surf pretty well using the outside edging and, therefore, strongly agree with Duane that this is the technique that works best. Carving, edging to the inside, does work pretty well, but I feel that it it works because I'm loading the blade so much by leaning on it. Edging out and ruddering in is an exercise in flexibility and balance, but works better than edging in and ruddering in. In my view. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greetings to all. Does anyone have any special recommendations for kayaking in or near Bethany Beach, Delaware? Thanks in advance, Emile *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Emile Zen > > Does anyone have any special recommendations for kayaking in or near > Bethany Beach, Delaware? Be prepared for a good chance of dumping surf. Otherwise, nice place to kayak -- especially after Labor Day. Joq *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[moderator is travelling on vacation - do not be surprised by delays for posts which need to be edited - be sure to trim old content when replying... ] > How do you edge turn your sea kayak in surf or tide rips? > > Duane I always lean to seaward which is the inside of the curve when surfing ocean shore breaks while turning lest I loose the support of the upwelling and flip over. Maybe I should try your way and it won't be as bad as I thought. Never experimented save for outside leaning turns on flattish water where less intuitve is fine. In tide races I lean downstream or lean down-direction of the water movement to negate water piling on the opposite side inducing a flip, so tuning port for example is fine if the water is moving againt the starboard hull but then I'd be pushed in that direction regardless. For standing waves in a race I usually lean to the inside of the turn for turning. I'll have to experement a bit. Some times it depends on hull design. Usually I'm so "in the moment" I don't think about these considerations while on the water - just do whatever works to maintain uprightness. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kayakers, I wish I had that old Sea Kayaker issue on surfing as a reference. I can't even remember who wrote the article. Anybody have it handy to tell us who wrote it and summarize the tips? Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > In tide races I lean downstream or lean down-direction of the water > movement to negate water piling on the opposite side inducing a flip, so > tuning port for example is fine if the water is moving againt the starboard > hull but then I'd be pushed in that direction regardless. For standing waves > in a race I usually lean to the inside of the turn for turning. I'll have to > experement a bit. Some times it depends on hull design. > I am certainly not an expert surfer... or even a competent surfer. So having said that I can feel free to comment. :D >From the standpoint of the kayak itself there is little difference between edges since the main point is to get some rocker into the water rather than the flatter keel. Doug's remarks resonate in my mind. And I have a tendency to always edge into my paddle blade in the water just from the standpoint of having a ready brace. This weekend we should have a crapload (for some reason my spell-checker flagged that word LOL) of wakeboard boats going back and forth in front of the lake house so I will grab a kayak and see whether I like edging away from my paddle blade. Sitting here on my sofa watching I Love Lucy re-runs the idea seems unnatural, somehow. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkaaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've stayed out of this, mainly because guys like Duane and Doug have tons more experience surfing waves than I do. I gotta say, though, that Doug's first sentence makes no sense to me. His description of what he does when surfing a standing wave (second sentence) makes perfect sense, however. [What Doug said: > In tide races I lean downstream or lean down-direction of the water > movement to negate water piling on the opposite side inducing a flip, so > tuning port for example is fine if the water is moving against the > starboard hull but then I'd be pushed in that direction regardless. For > standing waves in a race I usually lean to the inside of the turn for > turning. I'll have to experiment a bit. Some times it depends on hull design. Getting back to Duane's question: When surfing a wave breaking in a surf zone, orbital motion takes a back seat to gravity and waveslope, I think, complicated by the fact the water mass of a breaking wave is moving toward the beach (I think). Surfing a standing wave is a somewhat different kettle of fish, from the point of view of motion of the water mass (I think). My bet is that Duane is both skidding _and_ carving, depending on the steepness of the waveface, and that when "down wave edging" he is tipped so far down-wave he thinks he is using the down-wave edge to carve, but he is really skidding. (I think) If it seems I am hedging here, that's good. I am so far past my board-surfing days and such an infrequent kayak-surfer, I do not have much competence to stand on. But, maybe some of this will give Duane grist for sorting out the dynamics. Doug, he's got more grist than any seven people I know, so he does not need any more from me. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: > > Getting back to Duane's question: When surfing a wave breaking in a surf > zone, orbital motion takes a back seat to gravity and waveslope, I think, > complicated by the fact the water mass of a breaking wave is moving toward > the beach (I think). Surfing a standing wave is a somewhat different kettle > of fish, from the point of view of motion of the water mass (I think). This is what's confusing for me. The dynamics of a standing wave seem far simpler (to me) than ocean surf and I'm having a hard time picturing all the motions. Even though there is no real forward motion when surfing a standing wave, there is a virtual motion. The forward-moving velocity of the kayak is canceled by the aft-moving water particles so to an observer on the shore the kayak doesn't move up or down the stream but to the kayaker there is certainly the feeling of motion (in fact, if I'm "in the moment" on a standing wave in a river I can get disoriented if I inadvertently focus on the un-moving shoreline). The cardinal rule of surfing is to lean upstream to avoid catching an edge and capsizing (unless, of course, you *want* to catch an edge). But in ocean surf it just seems different to me because there is real motion for everything. The kayak is moving down the wave face while the wave face is itself moving forward and often changing shape. Water particle motion upwards in ocean surf must become more important as the wave becomes steeper or less steep (I think). So a paddler still has to be careful of catching an edge; with the position of the kayak on the wave face making some difference (lower and you get more water particles moving towards you as they begin their circular movement in a wave). > My bet is that Duane is both skidding _and_ carving, depending on the > steepness of the waveface, and that when "down wave edging" he is tipped so > far down-wave he thinks he is using the down-wave edge to carve, but he is > really skidding. (I think) I think you're right. Duane is probably much better at holding that fine line between carving and tripping over the chine than I would be but it seems to me that he has to be doing a fair bit of skidding. I wonder how often Duane capsizes "downstream" (towards the beach) versus "upstream" (towards the wave face). His technique might not work at all if he were in a classic surf kayak. If it seems I am hedging here, that's good. I am so far past my > board-surfing days and such an infrequent kayak-surfer, I do not have much > competence to stand on. This is my handicap too. Most of my surfing is on boat wakes which are entirely different from surf; for one thing they are steeper at first and then become less steep which is the exact opposite of most ocean surf. So the start can be really really exciting and then you just sort of taper off to nothing. It's difficult to get set on a boat wake because the good ride is so short unless you can combine it with a handy gravel bar somewhere. > But, maybe some of this will give Duane grist for sorting out the dynamics. > Doug, he's got more grist than any seven people I know, so he does not need > any more from me. Food for thought, for sure. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > This is what's confusing for me. The dynamics of a standing wave > seem far > simpler (to me) than ocean surf and I'm having a hard time picturing > all the > motions. To my way of looking at it the dynamics of surf and standing waves are exactly the same if you use the water as your frame of reference. When you are sitting in front of an on coming surf wave, you are essentially motionless to the water underneath your boat with the wave coming towards. When you are drifting down a river coming towards a standing wave, again you and your boat are essentially motionless relative to the water below your boat. Obviously you may be moving relative to the water under the boat, but in both cases it is the water under your boat that you are dealing with at any given moment, so if you use that as your frame of reference you can get a handle on what is happening. In both ocean surf and river standing waves, the wave is approaching you and the chunk of water your boat occupies. In both cases you want to lean towards the wave. On a river this is called leaning down river, but it is really exactly the same thing as you do on surf. Typically we use the river/ocean bottom as our frame of reference, but to the water both surf and river waves are traveling through the water. Instead of thinking of approaching a wave in a river, think of the wave approaching you and you will see you deal with exactly as you would in surf. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 54 South Rd Groton, CT 06340 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Aug 27, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Craig Jungers wrote: > This is what's confusing for me. The dynamics of a standing wave > seem far > simpler (to me) than ocean surf and I'm having a hard time picturing > all the > motions. Nick responded: >>>>........Typically we use the river/ocean bottom as our frame of reference, but to the water both surf and river waves are traveling through the water. Instead of thinking of approaching a wave in a river, think of the wave approaching you and you will see you deal with exactly as you would in surf.<<<<<< Thanks Nick, you just saved me a long explanation. I'm glad I read all the digests (as mixed up and out of order they remain) before jumping in here again. Relative to your boat, a standing wave is identical to a moving wave. In one the water is moving through the wave and in the other the wave is moving through the water but given they are the same size and the same kind of water density and viscosity about the only difference you might detect is the wind in your face (and a fan could probably remove that clue from the test in a double blind study.) I might add that they act the same even when the waves are both breaking. So for controlling the kayak when surfing either kind of wave it makes no difference at that point in time when everything is the same. The beach break wave does change as it approaches shore and a boat wake will change along with your position in relation to the wave's source (or changing the speed of the source). Standing waves can change too but the surges in a turbulent stream are less predictable. I think on closer examination Duane will find it isn't usually the chine in the fore body that is helping him turn on a wave using a tilt to the outside of the turn. When surfing a sea kayak the bow is usually not even in the water at the point you can easily turn it. It is the stern chine and/or the shape of the stern which is most important. The combination of the hull shape (and mostly the chines, tubes, keels, V-bottom, skegs, fins, or rudder of the kayak--and their location) with the viscous fluid and the side (skidding) motion of the kayak down the face of the wave (powered by gravity) that what will determine how the boat handles. The placement of the kayak on, or in, the wave and where it is located on the wave (and the wave size) will also be factors. The "trim" of the symmetrical object at the time will also be a factor. The tendency of any long symmetrical object in waves is to rotate until it is sideways to the wave direction (even if it is perfectly round in all ways except for length). Even just floating free, the end of the symmetrical object the wave contacts first gets moved more by the wave that the other end. There may be more to it, but the combination of gravity and the orbital motion of the water molecules in a wave (forward at the crest and backwards in the trough) is enough to cause this. Once the object starts skidding on the water (surfing) a lot of variations in the shape of the object (that effect how easily different parts skid--fins, chines keels etc.) will have a big effect on what the long object does. Since the tendency is to broach and since one has to fight a tendency constantly the more you can make the kayak neutral going in the direction you want it to go the more control of the kayak will shift to the paddler and away from the tendencies and the environment. If your boat broaches you wouldnt want to put a fin or rudder up near the bow (even turned completely in the direction of sideways motion it is still adding drag to the bow end that will increase the broaching). So think about what you could do to a kayak's shape to make it more neutral when it is facing the direction (to the wave motion) you want to have it move. Now you are doing the kind of thinking I was doing when I was designing a sea kayak. A perfectly round hull will not be easier to turn if you lean it. A lean helps partly because you are pushing the wider more curved part of the hull into the water which raises the ends of the kayak more out of the water. The ends of the kayak are also more rockered on the sides than at the keels when in that tilted orientation. Leaning either way will help when the kayaks waterline width is wider than twice its draft (is not round). Even Olympic Flatwater kayaks are not round but are about 3 to 1 (WL width to draft). However, just because you can lift the ends equally leaning to either direction that doesn't mean they will work the same (or be equally effective) in use. They might be in a perfectly symmetrical kayak that is sitting in one place but an asymmetrical kayak that is moving one way or the other is usually what we are trying to deal with. To further complicate things, the paddler wants to accomplish some goals and uses strokes with a paddle to do that. One of the main things needing to be accomplished is to keep the kayak from capsizing while we are tilting it. Most likely we also want to keep the kayak moving at speed rather than putting on the brakes (although when you want to put on the brakes and turn at the same time the inside lean and a constant brace for capsize prevention are often employed). A forward stroke and a high brace are easily combined. A single reverse stroke and a low brace are easily combined. A braking high brace (or sculling brace) can work especially if you have some momentum to play with but you wont be able to use any forward stroke effectively enough at that time to maintain your momentum. Therefore, if you want to keep going forward and turn your kayak quicker you will lean it to the outside of the turn. With most kayaks there are several other advantages to leaning to the outside of the turn as well. When water is flowing past the hull and you make one side more curved than the other side (by leaning it) you create a wing shape in the water (the "lift generated by this moving wing will be to one side). Add to that, the fact that the stern of a forward moving kayak is a lot freer to move sideways (than the bow) because there is less water pressure at the stern. When moving forward, water is being pushed to the side by the bow half of the kayak. It has momentum to the side (and up) and is having to reverse direction again to fill in the hole the boat left as its stern withdraws. Therefore, there is a lot more water pressure over the area of bow (which is doing the pushing aside) than over the rest of the kayak. So far what I'm saying all works even on well rounded symmetrical hulls (as longer as they are more curved on the sides than at the bottom). For example, take an old fashioned rounded slalom type kayak. Anyone who has paddled such a kayak knows how difficult it is to keep it going straight at first. What I wrote above is the reason for the river kayaks tendency for the stern to skid out to one side or the other. Complicate the shape more (as is the case with most sea kayaks) and you can counteract or enhance these tendencies depending on how you modify the shape. One way to get the kayak to go straighter might be to add a fin, drop skeg or more keel to the "loose" stern end to prevent it from going sideways so easily. Once you have done that you will find that it is a whole lot easier to turn the kayak by leaning it to the outside so that water sheds off the fin or keel easier in the stern half (rather than to turn the fin into more of a hook snagging the water by tilting the kayak to the inside of the turn). You have to lean the kayak far more to the inside to get the fin or keel enough out of the water not to snag than you have to lean to the outside. Your brace will be even more important then and even it you use a high brace you will be constantly braking with it rather than doing forward paddling. Now, if you are a budding kayak designer, think about how you might be able to change a kayaks shape to enhance the performance in the desired direction without hurting it too much in other respects. In boat design everything is a compromise, but your job as a boat designer is to learn to be good at negotiating with Mother Nature. You want to be a lawyer looking for loopholes in the laws of physics you can squeeze your kayak through. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug's first sentence is, I think, saying 'lean/brace into the wave' when in the surf zone. Re: Duane's original question: On the assumption that he's using his home-built flat-bottomed Point Bennet boat, it seems to me that an outside edge *for that boat* will yield a better carving inside turn - though I'd be curious to hear whether Duane continues to edge outside when the wave steepens and the kayak is about to broach....... In some respects it is much easier to surf standing waves in moving water, as the wave stays more consistent for a longer time period - while in the situation of moving waves in standing water, the wave changes with respect to time as it forms, steepens, and finally breaks. But in both cases, and for riding the glassy part of a wave with similar steepness, the technique should be the same, albeit of much shorter temporal duration for the moving wave. Erik ________________________________ From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> I gotta say, though, that Doug's first sentence makes no sense to me. Getting back to Duane's question: When surfing a wave breaking in a surf zone, orbital motion takes a back seat to gravity and waveslope, I think, complicated by the fact the water mass of a breaking wave is moving toward the beach (I think). Surfing a standing wave is a somewhat different kettle of fish, from the point of view of motion of the water mass (I think). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik, The Point Bennett has a shallow-V hull. Duane --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Erik S <laivotais_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > On the assumption that he's using his home-built > flat-bottomed Point Bennet boat, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, The difference between edges is that the outside edge turn allows the outside forward half of the chine to help carve the turn. If I edge inside for a turn, my kayak turns the wrong way. Then again, my sea kayak is designed for carving edge turns. Duane --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > From the standpoint of the kayak itself there is little > difference between > edges since the main point is to get some rocker into the > water rather than > the flatter keel. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>wrote: > Craig, > > The difference between edges is that the outside edge turn allows the > outside forward half of the chine to help carve the turn. If I edge inside > for a turn, my kayak turns the wrong way. Then again, my sea kayak is > designed for carving edge turns. > My F-1 and Mariner Express both doTh this as well... that is, they begin to turn as soon as they're placed on edge. Although they both do low-brace turns well, too. I'm not sure how many other kayaks do this. My Mariner II does not and my Nimbus Telkwa certainly doesn't care which edge it's on (although it turns well when on edge). I have always liked the way the Express handles but have never used it for going out and purposefully surfing. And I can't remember whether the Coaster is neutral in directional stability when on edge or not. This, however, is a significant detail. If you have designed your kayak to need to be on the outside edge for a turn then, obviously, an outside edge is what you want. I still think it make for an interesting maneuver with the paddle ruddering over the "high side". How well does your kayak do a low-brace edged turn? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just had a thought.... since the Mariner Express behaves something like your kayak (turns naturally when edged to the outside of the turn) and since Matt Broze has probably surfed the Express as much as anyone else, I wonder what technique Matt uses in ocean surf (inside edge or outside edge). I'm also hoping to drive down there with my pickup truck and 1972 Streamline 21' trailer and stay for a few days at the campground near San Onofre (assuming the State keeps it open) some time this winter. I'll bring the F-1 down and hope for some gentle surf to get out in. You might rattle around in my F-1 but it will be interesting to see how Mark likes it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, If you can make it down here, I'd really like to surf your F-1. I think it would turn nicely on the outside edge. I don't do much low brace turning, because it slows the kayak down too much. But sometimes I'll edge on the inside of the turn and practically stand on the paddle, especially if I'm broaching and have to brake on the wave to get back high on it and get the ends out of the water to be able to turn back down it. Don't try this with Western Red Cedar. I've been wanting to hear from Matt Broze about this too. I checked the surfing section of the Mariner Manual, and it doesn't mention which side to edge on. Matt must be on a trip somewhere. I was also hoping someone had the sea kayak surfing issue of Sea Kayaker Magazine to name the author and mention which edge is recommended. I think if anything, this debate has shown how little time most people spend in the surf with a sea kayak. They just grab a whitewater or surf kayak instead. I always felt that beyond bracing, surfing a short kayak does little to improve your sea kayak surf zone skills. If I surf a short boat a few times, then go out in a sea kayak, I'm lost for a bit before I re-adjust. A short boat and long boat in the surf are two different games. It's much more difficult to handle a sea kayak in surf. Surfing my surf boat is so easy it almost bores me. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Unlike Duane, I don't think I ever find surfing my small boat boring, but I agree that there is something special about surfing a sea kayak. Duane's video demonstrates it well, the grace of that big long bow hangin' out in front of you!! And when your bow starts to plant, you realize you better stay on the ball! I always liked surfing the Lollygagger, but always with the rudder down to keep it from broaching. The only problem was with rolling it, especially in the surf! My last surf outing with the Tempest went much better the first, but I don't think it will ever be a great surfer. Sometimes I think I ought to get one of the sit on top surf boats, but I just like the idea of being in a closed deck boat braving the waves! Well, my Tempest was supposed to be my rolling boat, so now I guess I need a long surf boat! Mark -----Original Message----- A short boat and long boat in the surf are two different games. It's much more difficult to handle a sea kayak in surf. Surfing my surf boat is so easy it almost bores me. Duane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane said : > I think if anything, this debate has shown how little time most people spend in the surf with a sea kayak. They just grab a whitewater or surf kayak instead. I always felt that beyond bracing, surfing a short kayak does little to improve your sea kayak surf zone skills. If I surf a short boat a few times, then go out in a sea kayak, I'm lost for a bit before I re-adjust. A short boat and long boat in the surf are two different games. It's much more difficult to handle a sea kayak in surf. Surfing my surf boat is so easy it almost bores me. Your kidding, right? Surfing a sea kayak is like driving a pickup truck on a winding mountain road. Sure it will get you where you're going and you can carry a lot of stuff with you, but I would much prefer the sports car. Why do you think we don't see any "sea kayak" surf contests? Probably because the judges couldn't stay awake :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, No doubt, surfing a sea kayak is an underdog position, much like using a GP in the surf. But there's no better way to get good at using both. Duane --- On Fri, 8/28/09, Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Your kidding, right? Surfing a sea kayak is like > driving a pickup truck on a winding mountain road. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane said : > No doubt, surfing a sea kayak is an underdog position, much like using a GP in the surf. But there's no better way to get good at using both. Agreed! The same thing goes for developing a bomb proof combat roll. I must admit that when the surf is small I do find my surf boat boring, and I prefer to see what performance I can coax from the sea kayak. But when the surf is pumping the sea kayaks are in survival mode while I'm having a blast in my surf boat! I am going to try to get out for a bit tomorrow morning and see just how well the outside lean works. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>wrote: > > If you can make it down here, I'd really like to surf your F-1. I think it > would turn nicely on the outside edge. > It does turn well on the outside edge... at least on relatively flat water. I really haven't surffed it but Brian Schulz seems to be able to surf his pretty well. Mine might be a little big for you (Pam's is one size smaller than standard and mine is one size larger) but it should fit little Markie just dandy. The F-1 is the boat I paddle the most; especially when I'm traveling. It's so easy to hoist that 28lbs boat onto the car. I impress all the young girls when I just pick it up, hoist it over my head, and set it onto the top of the SUV. God, I love to hear young girls gasp in awe. Did I mention that they are 8 and 7 and live across the street? Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com>wrote: > >> If you can make it down here, I'd really like to surf your F-1. I think it >> would turn nicely on the outside edge. >> > > It does turn well on the outside edge... at least on relatively flat water. > I really haven't surffed it but Brian Schulz seems to be able to surf his > pretty well. Mine might be a little big for you (Pam's is one size smaller > than standard and mine is one size larger) but it should fit little Markie > just dandy. > > The F-1 is the boat I paddle the most; especially when I'm traveling. It's > so easy to hoist that 28lbs boat onto the car. I impress all the young girls > when I just pick it up, hoist it over my head, and set it onto the top of > the SUV. God, I love to hear young girls gasp in awe. Did I mention that > they are 8 and 7 and live across the street? > > Craig Jungers > Moses Lake, WA > www.nwkayaking.net Hey, when you reach a "certain age", you take what you can get, as far as female admiration goes. Sigh! -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm sure others may have paddled their Express more in surf than I have. I'm in complete agreement with Duane on this one. Doug as well (I think they just are saying pretty much the same thing using a different way of saying it). Outside edging makes for a quicker turn with most kayaks in flatwater or on a wave face (and especially with swedeform kayaks with curved hard chines in the stern like Mariners). When trying to stay on the wave and not broach, I lean into the wave on the upwave side I have started to broach towards (edging to the outside of the turn I want to make--or slowing my broach if I can't make the turn back down the face) but then start to stop that turn before going past the straight down the wave orientation so I don't overshoot the goal and broach the other way. If you need to lean a whole lot either on flatwater or one the crest of the wave (as Duane mentioned) to make the kayak pivot quickly you are pretty much forced to lean to the inside of the turn so your paddle is available on that side for bracing yourself back upright. The other time I'll lean a lot to the inside (up wave side) of the turn is when I want to peel off the wave before it breaks. It might be faster to lean to the outside there too but the steepness of the wave face and the side pressure on the keel will usually make it very difficult to get the boat back to being level with the horizon again. More likely you will end up tumbling head first down the wave face. If I want too peel off the wave to the opposite side I'm presently angling towards I might hold the outside lean past the straight down the wave direction a bit to speed up the turn to the opposite tack but then suddenly switch to leaning into the turn for the peel out before I get leaned too far down the wave face to recover. The more keel (and the more vertical the ends of your kayak are the less you will be able to lean the kayak down the wave and recover. The keel to the front of the kayak's direction is the one most likely to torque you over down wave. For instance when surfing a breaker backwards in an Express (the hour glass flared stern makes back surfing possible where most kayaks rear ender) the vertical fin keel back there (now the end in the direction I'm moving towards when going backwards) could get so trapped in a down wave lean that as hard as I fought to right the kayak after leaning a bit down wave I was just not strong enough to do it if the pressure torquing me over remained constant or increased (which it does the further you broach). I would sometimes be slowly forced over to an eventually tumble down the wave face because I couldn't pull hard enough with my thigh under the cockpit to stop it. With all the rocker and flare at the bow of the Express, when moving forward I could lean down wave at a much bigger angle (off center) and still bring the kayak back to an inside edge lean to finish the peel off. Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:48:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Outside vs. Inside Edge for Turning in Surf From: crjungers_at_gmail.com To: strosaker_at_yahoo.com CC: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; marinerkayaks_at_msn.com I just had a thought.... since the Mariner Express behaves something like your kayak (turns naturally when edged to the outside of the turn) and since Matt Broze has probably surfed the Express as much as anyone else, I wonder what technique Matt uses in ocean surf (inside edge or outside edge). I'm also hoping to drive down there with my pickup truck and 1972 Streamline 21' trailer and stay for a few days at the campground near San Onofre (assuming the State keeps it open) some time this winter. I'll bring the F-1 down and hope for some gentle surf to get out in. You might rattle around in my F-1 but it will be interesting to see how Mark likes it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:34 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > It might be faster to lean to the outside there too but the steepness of > the wave face and the side pressure on the keel will usually make it very > difficult to get the boat back to being level with the horizon again. More > likely you will end up tumbling head first down the wave face. > > Ok... I think I'm wrapping my head around this concept now. It's surprisingly difficult to envision a kayak on an ocean wave while watching *I Love Lucy* re-runs on tv. I was not thinking in terms of correcting turns on a wave-face but more in terms of cutting back across the wave-face. It just takes me a while to catch on. But it all makes perfect sense to me now. When Duane mentioned that it takes him a while to dial into the different method of surfing a "surf" kayak on a wave as opposed to a "sea kayak combined with Marks mention of staying straight on a wave (a concept w/w paddlers on a wave face might find somewhat foreign) got the penny to drop. This weekend I expect to spend a little time hunting down wakeboard boats and trying this out. Oops... looks like Ricky is home and Lucy is in trouble... can't talk any more.... Thanks for the thread, everyone. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayhaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gee, lots of opinions on this subject! Seems to me, when you're trying to turn an kayak on edge in flat water, either way you edge it will help to some degree as either way you're increasing the rocker of the boat. When riding a wave, increasing the rocker of the boat doesn't seem to be the main goal, it's more to catch the edge to provide an anti-turning moment, like a virtual fin. Duane's idea of catching the outside edge on a wave seems to make more sense for his boat with a hard chine than it would for my Tempest with a completely rounded hull. Catching the outside edge has the whole side of the kayak working like a skeg, where as catching the inside edge would allow water to flow less impeded an cause the boat to skid more. Also it would seem to work for a sea kayak where your mostly trying to make minor corrections to stay straight in a wave as opposed to a surf kayak where you're making dramatic cuts back and forth. I hope I have settled the matter!!! Mark -----Original Message----- Craig, The difference between edges is that the outside edge turn allows the outside forward half of the chine to help carve the turn. If I edge inside for a turn, my kayak turns the wrong way. Then again, my sea kayak is designed for carving edge turns. Duane --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> wrote: > From the standpoint of the kayak itself there is little > difference between > edges since the main point is to get some rocker into the > water rather than > the flatter keel. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders: Duane's idea of catching the outside edge on a wave seems to make more sense for his boat with a hard chine than it would for my Tempest with a completely rounded hull. I don't know enough about physics or marine engineering to have any idea what is going on with edging. It certainly works on waves with my Explorer, my whitewater boats (laser bat, pirouette, sabre) and my downriver boat (an ancient Match II). I do know, however, that no kayak has a completely rounded hull. That would be a log. Sprint kayaks have very round hulls and, believe me, most people can't paddle those in big waves without a lot of stress. Having done it badly, though, edging works with them as well. I look forward to an explanation that includes some science. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I see Duane's edging to the outside more as a check valve to prevent the boat from turning in that direction, then his rudder stroke to the opposite side provides the impetus to turn. I didn't say that edging a boat like mine with a roundER! hull doesn't do anything, I just don't think its as effective as edging a hard chined boat! I can assure you, I've done countless scientific experiments in my bathtub. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Outside vs. Inside Edge for Turning in Surf I don't know enough about physics or marine engineering to have any idea what is going on with edging. I look forward to an explanation that includes some science. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would suggest consulting the original experts, Mr. Outside and Mr. Inside, Felix "Doc" Blanchard and Glenn Davis. (You guys are making me feel on edge.) BRC Quoting Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>: > Gee, lots of opinions on this subject! > Seems to me, when you're trying to turn an kayak on edge in flat water, > either way you edge it will help to some degree as either way you're > increasing the rocker of the boat. I hope I have settled the matter!!! > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That's why short sea kayak's were invented! Well, not really. But they do tend to allow a bridge between the two extremes. I'm out of order here on the thread at the moment as I need to catch up on the posts, but I do know Duane has a variety of sea boat lengths. Not sure if he's mentioned that. I know surfing big winter seas in the surf zone is an awesome experience with tangible thrills, skill development, and it's own ethos, but really, the short sea kayak rules for truly enjoying carving up the moments. What I find is however, somewhatt commensurate with Duane, but when I do get bored in a white water kayak, I sure wish I had a proper surf kayak with fins or even a sit-on-top surf specific kayak. I've watched some pretty amazing paddlers out at Long Beach and it it amazing to watch them run through the hard-won maneuvers - one's that to do well and make look effortless probably are beyond even many of us gristly Paddlwisers (if only because we spend so much time in our sea kayaks, other that you surf-ski types shredding the miles). Live and let live. Doug Lloyd > Duane said : > >> I think if anything, this debate has shown how little time most people >> spend in the surf with a sea kayak. They just grab a whitewater or surf >> kayak instead. I always felt that beyond bracing, surfing a short kayak >> does little to improve your sea kayak surf zone skills. If I surf a short >> boat a few times, then go out in a sea kayak, I'm lost for a bit before I >> re-adjust. A short boat and long boat in the surf are two different >> games. It's much more difficult to handle a sea kayak in surf. Surfing my >> surf boat is so easy it almost bores me. > > Your kidding, right? Surfing a sea kayak is like driving a pickup truck > on a winding mountain road. Sure it will get you where you're going and > you can carry a lot of stuff with you, but I would much prefer the sports > car. Why do you think we don't see any "sea kayak" surf contests? Probably > because the judges couldn't stay awake :-) > > Scott > So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Sorry I didn't make sense. Must be the anti-matter language contrived to conceal - as Bruce Cockburn would sing. It's been a full weekend, but I'll try explaing here now - hope I don't fail ya bro... I'm not even sure why the sentence you question was even added to the conversation. We were discussing the merits of outside leans on moving wave slopes. Perhaps I was reinforcing the notion that for me (and in reality, what is more typically taught and wrote about) leaning into the wave face as opposed to shore-side was the safer option all things being equal for surfing breakers - then justifying this having compared that to the normally taught in-current downstream lean (usually with an perpendicular torso orientation) that prevents water catching the up-stream edge and flipping you forcefully. So, in my misunderstood sentence, I wasn't even talking about waves, just current dynamics and what is considered conventional wisdom for leaning/edging, as is inside edging/leaning into the turn with surfing breaking waves. Or put another way, there are two very different dynamics for wave-face support versus being perpendicular to crossing a current, but both techiniques I mentioned for dealing with those two environments are what is conventially taught and practiced. Hope to gosh that makes sense, otherwise I need to hire Will for his better articulation skills.... I do find Duane's highlighting of the usefulness of outside carving in surf and his video augmentation shared with us and other groups a point missed by many who instruct surf zone play (even if his hull dynamic perspectives didn't jive), but in reality, if a competent, confident paddler already makes use of a sea kayak's outside carve-turn ability, they are certainly going to utilize that feature up until the point where the need for stability and seaward-leaning paddle support take over. The useful instruction here would really be more one of how well-timed and skilled one is converting from the shore side paddle orientation if the paddle is on the outside lean too, over to the ocean-side support with the outside carve just taking palce. At least, in retrospect when I go through the mental picture of me on waves, that's where I need to keep up the practice. Perhaps more so when I get my chinned kayak out this fall in the surf and can do more outside edging turns. Some of this stuff I have to get out and do as visualizations fails. I watched a buddy surf for thousands of feet out a Bajo Reef a few years back. The swell peaked but did not break and the runs lasted forever - almost had time to get out a flask of tea and sip away. Highly applicable time for outside carving to keep on track in front of the wave. Yeah, me, I just cheated and used my deep draft rudder. I've taught specific ocean kayak surfing courses with a co-instructor in the past. Although the focus of the course was on bringing a 5 meter-plus sea kayak safely through the surf in the broached position, all the usual surf basics were covered both in pre-water beach-time learning as well as out on the water. Everything was pretty much boiler-plated from Nigel Foster's articles around August/October 1999 in SeaKayaker magazine if I remember. We covered edging (weight shift/knee lift), up-wave leans (weight on paddle), trim (leaning forward/backwards versus pearling/down-wave-up-wave turns), and then edging versus leaning. We covered moving forward and backwards while side surfing and of course the classic forward run, which as far as I remember, we always taught bracing to seaward until the heavier lean was then employed, though Dave, the other instructor told the students to lean forward a bit more and to starboard if they were getting ahead of the sweet spot while surfing port-wards (for example). I didn't like the course or teaching it precisely because everything was taught arbitrarily without regard to variations - but then I tend to overcomplicate my pedagogical efforts with too much information and variation (for a novice needing simple initial instruction). And, I put way more stock in paddlestrokes to individuate optimal surf-zone play for an individual's kayak handling characteristics and their personal strength/flexibility controlling the kayak with the blades. I guess for me personally, I tend to surf in more complex surf zones where classic lines of thought don't always provide the results demanded. Certainly, survivability in some of the complex dynamics isn't a matter of debate or alleged exaggeration. It's my life. High stern rudders stroke variations in big, breaking following seas, bow rudder variatons in tightly constricted surge channels with breaking surf - these are the techniques I work to refine and depend upon. However, a lot of the stuff Duane is getting at with carving is lost on someone with a hull that isn't well-served by carving-induced turns and directional control. That will certainly change for me in the not too distant future with possible boat changes on the horizon and practice in my S&G. Whatever the case, Duane is always a breath of fresh air and often a challenge to convention norms. Doug Lloyd > I've stayed out of this, mainly because guys like Duane and Doug have tons > more experience surfing waves than I do. > > I gotta say, though, that Doug's first sentence makes no sense to me. His > description of what he does when surfing a standing wave (second sentence) > makes perfect sense, however. > > [What Doug said: > >> In tide races I lean downstream or lean down-direction of the water >> movement to negate water piling on the opposite side inducing a flip, so >> tuning port for example is fine if the water is moving against the >> starboard hull but then I'd be pushed in that direction regardless. For >> standing waves in a race I usually lean to the inside of the turn for >> turning. I'll have to experiment a bit. Some times it depends on hull >> design. > > Getting back to Duane's question: When surfing a wave breaking in a surf > zone, orbital motion takes a back seat to gravity and waveslope, I think, > complicated by the fact the water mass of a breaking wave is moving toward > the beach (I think). Surfing a standing wave is a somewhat different > kettle of fish, from the point of view of motion of the water mass (I > think). > > My bet is that Duane is both skidding _and_ carving, depending on the > steepness of the waveface, and that when "down wave edging" he is tipped > so far down-wave he thinks he is using the down-wave edge to carve, but he > is really skidding. (I think) > > If it seems I am hedging here, that's good. I am so far past my > board-surfing days and such an infrequent kayak-surfer, I do not have much > competence to stand on. But, maybe some of this will give Duane grist for > sorting out the dynamics. Doug, he's got more grist than any seven people > I know, so he does not need any more from me. > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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