I think of the power stroke as just a type of brace that drives the boat. Among the characteristics (I didn't say advantages here) of my long Euro paddle is that I routinely have a low stroke rate. That means that I effectively am in a "support" mode a larger percentage of the time relative to a paddler with a high stroke rate. I can easily increase my stroke rate by shortening the stroke. By this change, I can adjust which muscles are working hardest. Going from sweep to full forward or even vertical for max power are all just subtle changes in lean, entry angle. I keep my elbows down unless full out racing. My 9-ft euro has a slightly smaller blade than my 8.5-ft Werner, but these are equal in pulling power and yield identical stroke rates. I noticed one of the books specifically indicates that the Greenland Paddles are a continuum of lengths that go from short storm paddles to max 8-ft standard Greenland configuration. My 8.5-ft Werner, 70 degree offset, left hand control, is only another 6 inches. We are quibbling here on length. The Greenland paddles of interest to me are those from the Polar Arctic culture in Thule, Greenland. At least one illustration of that paddle can be seen in Bark and Skin boats (Adney and Chapelle). My experience in teaching rolling is that a Greenland paddle of any kind, 8 ft long, is the best paddle out there to use for such teaching. It allows easy sculling, static balance brace with just a very small foam float, allows all steps of the roll to be isolated and done in slow motion so the student can understand and practice the physical bending and timing for each part of the roll to the rear deck. My long paddle, importantly, allows me plenty of time to use maximum body rotation and minimum arm pulling on each stroke. I think lots of paddlers never really employ maximum effective rotation, driving the stroke starting from the foot braces, because their little short strokes are over too rapidly. Routine high stroke rate and rapid rotation left-right, lft-rt,lft-rt, is just never going to be attractive to my 69-yr-old back and shoulders. With my system, I force all my lazy, don't want-to-be-involved-today, muscle groups to join in the fun! Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For you youngsters, ocean racing is swell. But I have no inclination to race. I have no place I need to go in a hurry. In fact, my specialty is going slow. I can achieve this goal with any length paddle. Going slow is beautiful. Try it sometime, and you'll never go back to racing. The road is not the road, the road is how you travel it. Bradford R. Crain Subject: [Paddlewise] bracing and power >I think of the power stroke as just a type of brace that drives the boat. > Among the characteristics (I didn't say advantages here) of my long Euro > paddle is that I routinely have a low stroke rate. That means that I > effectively am in a "support" mode a larger percentage of the time > relative > to a paddler with a high stroke rate. I can easily increase my stroke rate > by shortening the stroke. By this change, I can adjust which muscles are > working hardest. Going from sweep to full forward or even vertical for max > power are all just subtle changes in lean, entry angle. I keep my elbows > down unless full out racing. > > My long paddle, importantly, allows me plenty of time to use maximum body > rotation and minimum arm pulling on each stroke. I think lots of paddlers > never really employ maximum effective rotation, driving the stroke > starting > from the foot braces, because their little short strokes are over too > rapidly. Routine high stroke rate and rapid rotation left-right, > lft-rt,lft-rt, is just never going to be attractive to my 69-yr-old back > and > shoulders. With my system, I force all my lazy, don't > want-to-be-involved-today, muscle groups to join in the fun! > > Chuck Sutherland *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have only limited experience with a very long paddle; Pam has one she managed to collect and, frankly, we both think it's a dog. But that could just be that one paddle. There is no question that some Inuit used very long paddles and since it's easier to make a shorter paddle than a longer one they must have had some reason. We bring so much baggage along with us when we're presented with a philosophy that might be new to us. I know that when I moved back into sea kayaking from white water kayaking I was dismayed at how long it took me to get used to the differences. W/w boats tend to be wide and have excellent primary stability; many experienced w/w paddlers paddle very short, very wide playboats. Imagine my surprise to find that some of the best sea kayak paddlers paddle relatively long, very narrow (and very twitchy) playboats. W/w kayakers sit with their legs splayed out and knees firmly up under the deck and against the gunwales... almost locked in with a ratcheting backband. Sea kayakers often sit with their legs almost straight. How they achieve edge control is - at least to me - a complete mystery. It was a revelation to me when Doug Lloyd said that his interpretation of a "responsive" kayak was one that moved from edge-to-edge quickly. My interpretation of a "responsive" kayak was one that maneuvered easily and quickly. The sport - and the pursuit of the sport - is in a continual state of flux. Sometimes it's subtle like the current movement to slightly shorter paddles. Sometimes it's blatant like surf kayaks. Is a very long paddle in my future? Probably not. I'm having my own difficulties handling a 6-1/2 foot GP; it's going to be a long time before I give up my Lightning; or even the wing. Is it in your future? Maybe. All you need is a long 2x4 in cedar and an afternoon to find out. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck said > GPs are a continuum of lengths that go from short storm > paddles to max 8-ft standard Greenland configuration My day-to-day GP is 2450mm (8' 0.5") and my racing GP is 50mm (2") longer. I've only a little over 6' arm span - but have come to prefer my GP longer than 'normal' (from Heath & Holst's formulae). Within the local group of GP users, I believe I prefer the greatest 'extra length' - but most seem to prefer their GPs 25-50mm (1-2") longer than 'normal'. I have seen much longer Inuit kayak paddles in the Canadian Canoe Museum - and Harvey Golden's great reference book has a number in the 3100 (10') plus range. So there is precedent for a considerable size range. My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies. These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last regularly-used Euro paddle). One vivid GP memory is sitting under a tall bluff and waiting out some wind 'dumps' that came down and hissed across the otherwise flat water - kicking up little whirls of spray. I've always remembered them with my reaction at the time 'sh#t - this has to be 50+ knots'. For a few minutes, I was in 'brace to survive' mode, low to the deck and GP held low & centrally - equally out on either side, as I was struggling to stay head-on to the rock wall and keep whatever shelter I could get. The ease of doing a slap-brace on either side with no hand movement - and no wrist rotation (un-feathered GP, of course) was certainly something I valued in that particular experience - and something I continue to think of as a benefit of the GP. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Paul wrote: > My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to > overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of > cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies. > These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last > regularly-used Euro paddle). > > One vivid GP memory is sitting under a tall bluff and waiting out some wind > 'dumps' that came down and hissed across the otherwise flat water - kicking > up little whirls of spray. I've always remembered them with my reaction at > the time 'sh#t - this has to be 50+ knots'. For a few minutes, I was in > 'brace to survive' mode, low to the deck and GP held low & centrally - > equally out on either side, as I was struggling to stay head-on to the > rock wall and keep whatever shelter I could get. > > The ease of doing a slap-brace on either side with no hand movement - and no > wrist rotation (un-feathered GP, of course) was certainly something I valued > in that particular experience - and something I continue to think of as > a benefit of the GP. > > Best Regards > Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come from, be it beam, stern or bow. It is what it says it is, stability in dynamic environments by actually paddling and utilizing water features, not bracing and losing momentum, especially with an overly long lever that offers slower cadence and the ability for the water to catch up and control you. Use your lower body tension with proper posture and the control surfaces of your hull to achieve stability while paddling, not dumbing down your speed to get to where you need to be. I was a safety boater at the Deception Pass Dash, an early winter race in Washington's Deception Pass, a few years ago. I was given the lousiest assignment possible, be the guy at Deception Island at the mouth of the inlet where the wind blows hard and the swell bounced me around for an uninterrupted 2.5 hours. Me and my 205 cm paddle. When it came time to leave it was a slog to paddle across 30 knots of wind on the nose to the shelter of the cliff a mile opposite. It's nice having the cadence to actually paddle into the wind, across the current ebbing against me and over the waves and boils. A long paddle, relying on reactive techniques would truly have sucked. Some of the racers in their faster boats got a ride on a powerboat from our position. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 8:22 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > > Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come from, > be it beam, stern or bow. It is what it says it is, stability in dynamic > environments by actually paddling and utilizing water features, not bracing > and losing momentum, I guess "dynamic stability" is the new way of saying "keep a paddle in the water". No question in my mind about how effective it is. Plus it's the easiest thing to teach a new paddler. "Keep paddling... don't stop paddling." > especially with an overly long lever that offers slower cadence and the > ability for the water to catch up and control you. Since I've never used a "long" paddle (220 is the longest I have regularly used) I can't argue one way or another. But I think that a long lever arm might be an advantage in some circumstances as long as the weight is kept under control and the paddler has developed a skillset that is capable of utilizing that type of paddle properly. > > A long paddle, relying on reactive techniques would truly have sucked. > Probably so... and probably so for many others as well. But in the hands of someone experienced with that type of paddle and that technique, perhaps not. Arguing from one's own personal experience against something you are not, yourself, familiar with is just going to rehash all the prejudices people have all over again. Short paddles versus longer paddles, bent shafts versus straight shafts, euro paddles versus Greenland paddles, Brit boats versus all the others, etc. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is plenty of evidence of the use of very long paddles among the Inuit plus some pretty decent paddlers here on Paddlewise.seem to have no problems with them. Perhaps this is an untapped niche in the sport. No one says you *must* try a longer paddle; if you are happy with what you are using then more power to ya. But it would be very interesting if very long paddles turn out to be the fad of the future in the same way GPs and SOF boats have over the past few years. Maybe if a few short-paddle users try Chuck's technique and report back we could get some better perspective. Until then I'm keeping an open mind. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: > I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is plenty of evidence of > the use of very long paddles among the Inuit plus some pretty decent > paddlers here on Paddlewise.seem to have no problems with them. Perhaps this > is an untapped niche in the sport. I have a wing (214 cm), a Werner Kalliste (220 cm), an AT Xception (226 cm) , vintage Werner Little Dipper (243 cm, old narrow blade style), plus have had several GP's at 213 cm. I cannot get used to either the wing or the GP's. The very long Little Dipper is not too long, it is very relaxing to paddle with and very secure in rough water. I had a 229 cm AT but sold it because it was too long, if that makes sense. The 226 AT is my favorite. Second favorite is the Kalliste, which is the right length for that paddle for me. I currently use all these paddles with either a QCC 700 with rudder, or a Seda Ikkuma without. I paddle the QCC 700 at about 4.2 kts for two hours with any of the paddles. But am least tired with the 226 AT. J *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't want to belabor the point or knock anyone's very personal equipment choices, as I said, you like what you like and that is the final word. I started kayaking back when my 240cm Werner Camano was the hot ticket and my Pacific Watersports Osprey was the be all and end all. I have a Derek Hutchinson designed Streamlyte Toksook, but as I'm a rebel without a cause and too lazy to invent one, I bought it at 220cm and a 60 degree feather, not the recommended 240cm length and 90 degree feather. I dislike dogma that can sometimes shame people into feeling they need to switch out equipment in favor of what is *current.* With that change comes a different technique that also needs to come along for the ride to work. One of the best teachers of *paddle-paddle-paddle* is learning to surf river waves. All the folks, myself included, who use reactive strokes, stern rudders on the eddy line and similar defense only strokes inevitably miss the wave, float down stream in the funny water and continue bracing and beaver slapping and sometimes missing large eddies to cue back up for the wave. Positive strokes get you on the wave, they still correct your attitude and help you in a dynamic environment. Paddling defensively in a dynamic environment cedes control to the water. Relying on the paddle users longer lever may not be construed as ceding control always, however, in this discussion, it's primary attractions have been advertised as such. Dynamic stability uses water features, posture, cadence and your hull's control surfaces to aid this. Ask yourself one question: why are there people in whitewater who paddle class 5 with hand paddles if paddle length is so important? I'm well aware of my mere mortal status, they amaze me, too. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Foodman <gfoodma_at_earthlink.net> To: Craig Jungers <crjungers_at_gmail.com> Cc: rcgibbert_at_aol.com; pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; skimmer_at_enter.net; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm Sent: Thu, Jul 15, 2010 7:50 pm Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bracing and power [Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... this post was modified to meet policy] Craig wrote: > I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is plenty of evidence of > the use of very long paddles among the Inuit plus some pretty decent > paddlers here on Paddlewise.seem to have no problems with them. Perhaps this > is an untapped niche in the sport. I have a wing (214 cm), a Werner Kalliste (220 cm), an AT Xception (226 cm) , vintage Werner Little Dipper (243 cm, old narrow blade style), plus have had several GP's at 213 cm. I cannot get used to either the wing or the GP's. The very long Little Dipper is not too long, it is very relaxing to paddle with and very secure in rough water. I had a 229 cm AT but sold it because it was too long, if that makes sense. The 226 AT is my favorite. Second favorite is the Kalliste, which is the right length for that paddle for me. I currently use all these paddles with either a QCC 700 with rudder, or a Seda Ikkuma without. I paddle the QCC 700 at about 4.2 kts for two hours with any of the paddles. But am least tired with the 226 AT. J *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, Craig, et al: Not sure what all the fuss is about. There`s always going to be hold-outs who prefer old school, though perhaps the vocal ones may serve a beneficial purpose if they see a trend pushing too far the other way, or recognise there`s missing components in the advocacy of a particular new school argument - and jump up on roof tops to shout about it. I saw a trend toward shorter overall paddler lengths some 10 to 15 years ago around my neck of the woods but the reality of use was slow to be taken up en mass as GP`s started to get all the attention and specialized clinics (well, ones not inhabited by BCU brothers and sisters). As my boat of choice at the time was less responsive directionally than the performance touring yaks my friends were starting to paddle and design, I continued to prefer a compromised length which I may change when I get a newer, shorter playboat - though 210 - 212 may be it for me. I still tend to prefer movements that are more predictable and leveraged, where I can do things like reach over textured water to extend my actions and orient my kayak where I want it. I never did well with instant-reaction sports like boxing or martial arts, but did excel at wrestling in school. As for paddle choices, certainly Matt, when he ran his store with Cam, always gave out good paddle-purchase advise - as well as sold paddles that were up to his own standards. I still remember his advice about 10,000 strokes a day (thinking, ugh, he`s right) so keep your paddle light and make sure the shaft is strong enough with blades durable enough too. He also claimed that shorter blades with the same overall length (by comparison) yielded more hand position space distally, which I always felt was good advice (especially cranking my stiff Nordy around). I went out and bought a carbon graphite paddle after that but it didn`t have the durability factor to the blades. The lighter shaft I picked up for my main paddle also broke too easily and the soft-dihedral, short bladed 215 I picked up back then got lost in Tofino and I still need to replace that one once I figure out what I really need and have the skill-set inclination for (in terms of final overall length). One fellow I paddled with a fair bit was playing with 205 lengths a long time ago, with relatively small blades. He was truly a good all-around paddler who rarely fatigued and had a certain grace and efficiency to his boat control methodologies, such that I would say he was ahead of the curve that Rob outlined so well. But I think my 220 combined with good size pumps and my type of twitch-type muscles served me better for long days in heavy weather but perhaps less well in rock gardens and playing in surf zones. Not sure. Being a shorter guy, I should probably put more thought into this and more experimentation. Whatever I do, it will be based on advantages I feel benefit me to outweigh any disadvantages, and not because of current trends. With shorter arms, I like some extra reach. Dynamic stability defines somewhat differently for me, generally encompassing a 360 degree field ability and isn`t a topic that I like to broach here much as certain folks get so emotional about it on Paddlewise. :-) Finally, being either blasted onto a lee shore or perhaps the less desirable - blown out to sea - are scenarios for both of which I have experienced in extremis and are reasons I prefer a 60 degree feather with a paddle length of at least 7 feet that allows me to really dig or pry in a sustained fashion for my muscle type when my hands are asymmetrically placed from centre shaft or dealing with an off-angle sustained gusts in already high winds. I`m sure there are advantages to a short paddle length here too, but one thing is for sure, my paddle combination and length (so far) has seen through some of the worst predicaments imaginable. Cheers back. Doug Rob said: I don't want to belabor the point or knock anyone's very personal equipment choices, as I said, you like what you like and that is the final word. I started kayaking back when my 240cm Werner Camano was the hot ticket and my Pacific Watersports Osprey was the be all and end all. I have a Derek Hutchinson designed Streamlyte Toksook, but as I'm a rebel without a cause and too lazy to invent one, I bought it at 220cm and a 60 degree feather, not the recommended 240cm length and 90 degree feather. I dislike dogma that can sometimes shame people into feeling they need to switch out equipment in favor of what is *current.* With that change comes a different technique that also needs to come along for the ride to work. One of the best teachers of *paddle-paddle-paddle* is learning to surf river waves. All the folks, myself included, who use reactive strokes, stern rudders on the eddy line and similar defense only strokes inevitably miss the wave, float down stream in the funny water and continue bracing and beaver slapping and sometimes missing large eddies to cue back up for the wave. Positive strokes get you on the wave, they still correct your attitude and help you in a dynamic environment. Paddling defensively in a dynamic environment cedes control to the water. Relying on the paddle users longer lever may not be construed as ceding control always, however, in this discussion, it's primary attractions have been advertised as such. Dynamic stability uses water features, posture, cadence and your hull's control surfaces to aid this. Ask yourself one question: why are there people in whitewater who paddle class 5 with hand paddles if paddle length is so important? I'm well aware of my mere mortal status, they amaze me, too. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: But I think my 220 combined with good size pumps and my type of twitch-type muscles served me better for long days in heavy weather but perhaps less well in rock gardens and playing in surf zones. Not sure. Being a shorter guy, I should probably put more thought into this and more experimentation. Whatever I do, it will be based on advantages I feel benefit me to outweigh any disadvantages, and not because of current trends. With shorter arms, I like some extra reach. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the the salient point, we are all doing different things in different environments that often require different things to bring along. The more I'm paddling open water and less in the zone, my paddle length increases to 215. I have a 220 as a backup. I'd never sell it as it is a 4 piece and oh so easy to travel with. When I broke my primary paddle on a trip and used it as the full time deal, it was fine. A little long, but my arms are long, too and my travel boat is a Khatsalano, where I sit a little low anyway. The point is, none of us are the same and paddling the same places. Where I do get grumpy is when my ww blade gets changed venue to venue. I hate that. Change the boat, well, OK. Change the paddle, I filibuster. My backup ww paddle is a straight shaft, but at least the length and feather can be similar. It also fits in the back of even my play boat. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> To: rcgibbert_at_aol.com; gfoodma_at_earthlink.net Cc: pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz; skimmer_at_enter.net; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net; jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm Sent: Mon, Jul 19, 2010 11:14 pm Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] bracing and power *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote >Maybe if a few short-paddle users try Chuck's technique and report back we >could get some better perspective. Until then I'm keeping an open mind. G'Day Craig, I've several years experience of both long and short paddles. This started at the age of 50 almost exactly as Matt described. My first kayak was a Klepper and I used a paddle whose length was determined by the classic method of standing next to a vertical paddle, holding my arm up and choosing the length that allowed me to grasp the top blade in the palm of my hand. The combination of this paddle and the Klepper was wonderfully stable in conditions that I would consider challenging even today, but then I was young and foolish. I also developed tennis elbow from the stresses involved, being a skinny sort of cove:~) About four years years later I'd moved to a fibreglass kayak, a Pittarak. Then I met Linda Lehman who trains Olympian kayakers but was quite happy to hold a work shop for us mere mortals. The first thing she did was sit us in a circle with out paddles and exclaim that each paddle was far too long and that short was ideal. She suggested about 210 cm for most of us and taught us the vertical racing stroke and exercises that would allow us to change over. It was my Damascus, A year of struggling followed to reform my stroke, and eventually her technique made me considerably faster and with much less effort and no more sore arms. A sore butt yes but that's a different story to do with ischial tuberosities (bum bones) and my lack of padding where it counts. Eight years on at the age of 61 I've been continually frustrated at the comparison of my prowess and my deep respect for Linda's ideas, against the fact that I often paddled with strong, solidly built, relatively inflexible men and women who managed just fine with a longer paddle and a shallower stroke. So was forced to the conclusion I tried to describe in my last post. Different strokes for different folks. Probably time to be more specific about what's long and what's short. Here's my usage of the terms for a Euro paddle: - LONG 255cm or 8.5feet Selected by standing next to the vertical paddle and grasping the top blade SHORT 205cm or 6.8feet Selected by adjusting the length and feather angle of a smart shaft paddle for best performance as assessed by an expert paddling instructor and using a vertical stroke. I suggested this to our club some years ago and it caught on. Then in 1998 Nigel Dennis visited our club and he had been doing exactly the same thing in the UK but with more finesse - he included removable paddle blades of different size in the assessment. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote a little too briefly >Selected by adjusting the length and feather angle of a smart shaft paddle >for best performance as assessed by an expert paddling instructor and using >a vertical stroke. G'Day, To be more specific this involved progressively trying out different settings of length and feather angle on a paddle with a smart shaft to tailor a paddle length and feather to suit a particular kayaker's physique. So for example a kayaker paddles up and down and round many times, progressively adjusting the paddle length and feather angle for each series of exercises while their performance is monitored by an expert instructor, who assesses when the paddle and the kayaker combined produce the best performing stroke. The length and angle are then recorded to be used when the kayaker buys or modifies paddles for their own use. Bespoke paddles! All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This long versus short paddle question was over for me the second season ... tendinitis in my wrists using a mongo paddle drove me to a 220 cm Lightning and I've only used a longer paddle when back seating the double, where a longer paddle is needed to get to the water over the side of that battleship. If my single were narrower, I'd go to a 210. Short paddles are quicker to place and reduce the wear and tear on my joints. Craig, if you thought a knee replacement was torture, talk to an orthopedist about a shoulder replacement. BTDT -- and I opted to live with a sore shoulder and paddle less strenuously. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: - >to tailor a paddle length and feather to suit a particular kayaker's physique. G'Day Dave and all, An observation here is that the need to tailor the feather angle is primarily to minimise or remove any need for wrist rotation. The asymmetry in the paddle angle has the effect in a vertical stroke of compensating for the considerable asymmetry in the human body between the left and right sides. For anyone who doesn't already have an idea of this asymmetry, you might want to try, with discretion, placing your ankle on a horizontal bar and reaching to your foot, if possible grasping it with your opposite hand. Then swap legs and hands and try to grasp the other foot. I only suggest this because the question of tailoring feather angle caused a very long debate in Oz before a couple of us figured this out. All the best, PeterO (At 6ft 1.5in - a long short-paddle user) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry for tardy response on this - I'm sitting on a ferry off Wrangell, Alaska and the web is not here ;-) Paul wrote: My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies. These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last regularly-used Euro paddle). Rob wrote: Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come from, be it beam, stern or bow. Rob, you missed my point. I know that the increase in stability from the kayak's movement through the water (aka dynamic stability) assists in resisting an upsetting force from any direction. What I find is that the larger forces from sudden wind-gusts or big cresting waves (side or head) may overcome your dynamic stability very easily - ie: by stopping you dead in the water. If you haven't got a nice long lever arm to fall back on (quite literally), practicing your roll becomes likely. If your sense of balance is better than mine (it almost certainly is), then you may be able to retain your balance with a shorter aid. For example, anyone who can stand on a high-wire would find balancing a kayak pretty trivial... A long paddle just works for me better than a short one. It doesn't slow me down and I don't accept that it has any adverse effects on my capabilities or my enjoyment. I paddle often, I paddle hundreds of open-coast miles a year, I've even been competitive in races. Yes, a long paddle has a disadvantage in narrow rock caves or passages of a certain width, but that's true of any two-bladed paddle. I don't use it because I get a better brace from it - that's purely a by-product. I can go fast with a short paddle - and a higher cadence - I've tried it. For a short race, that's almost certainly better. Over a long (for me) day's paddle - say 10-16 hours and 60-80 km - I am just happier at the end of the day if my cadence has been lower. Others might do this with a short carbon wing and laugh... People have similar discussions on bicycle gearing. I'm not on a mission to talk anybody into using a GP - or a longer-than-usual euro paddle. If you are curious, try them and find out what works for you - and when - and why. Paddlers that I admire (for their accomplishments), use a wide variety of tools - and seem to get the job done just fine. Anyone who claims that there is only one 'good way' has their work cut out to convince me that it's all written in stone somewhere. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand (Temporarily in Alaska) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I get ya now. I know the feeling of instant overwhelming forces. I just had one of those. My preference in that is still the shorter blades, having come from a long blade background (230-240cm. I know storm paddles to Chuck, but they were long to me.) (Sorry Chuck, that was meant entirely in jest.) Standard sea touring a 215 is fine, more play than go 205 to 210 with my 199 ww blade getting considered as well. What works for you is the last word, as far as I'm concerned. I try to keep whitewater out of the discussion as much as possible and am not wholly successful at it, but I do bring it up as dynamic conditions are just that and they are often found there as the rule, not the exception. That and water obeys the same laws, be it fresh or salt so we paddlers, who are effectively out of our environment, better be darn sure we think long and hard about what we are doing. That is why this discussion is so interesting, people are thinking about the choices they make for what they do. Cheers, Rob G -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hayward <pdh_at_mmcl.co.nz> To: rcgibbert_at_aol.com; skimmer_at_enter.net; PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Cc: jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2010 6:25 pm Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] bracing and power Sorry for tardy response on this - I'm sitting on a ferry off Wrangell, Alaska and the web is not here ;-) Paul wrote: My own experience is that dynamic stability (from boat speed) helps to overcome sea-state (clapotis & chop) - but is less useful in conditions of cresting side-waves & surf, and much less useful in wind gusts and willies. These situations benefit from a longer paddle (ie: longer than my last regularly-used Euro paddle). Rob wrote: Dynamic stability is not dependent upon which direction features come from, be it beam, stern or bow. Rob, you missed my point. I know that the increase in stability from the kayak's movement through the water (aka dynamic stability) assists in resisting an upsetting force from any direction. What I find is that the larger forces from sudden wind-gusts or big cresting waves (side or head) may overcome your dynamic stability very easily - ie: by stopping you dead in the water. If you haven't got a nice long lever arm to fall back on (quite literally), practicing your roll becomes likely. If your sense of balance is better than mine (it almost certainly is), then you may be able to retain your balance with a shorter aid. For example, anyone who can stand on a high-wire would find balancing a kayak pretty trivial... A long paddle just works for me better than a short one. It doesn't slow me down and I don't accept that it has any adverse effects on my capabilities or my enjoyment. I paddle often, I paddle hundreds of open-coast miles a year, I've even been competitive in races. Yes, a long paddle has a disadvantage in narrow rock caves or passages of a certain width, but that's true of any two-bladed paddle. I don't use it because I get a better brace from it - that's purely a by-product. I can go fast with a short paddle - and a higher cadence - I've tried it. For a short race, that's almost certainly better. Over a long (for me) day's paddle - say 10-16 hours and 60-80 km - I am just happier at the end of the day if my cadence has been lower. Others might do this with a short carbon wing and laugh... People have similar discussions on bicycle gearing. I'm not on a mission to talk anybody into using a GP - or a longer-than-usual euro paddle. If you are curious, try them and find out what works for you - and when - and why. Paddlers that I admire (for their accomplishments), use a wide variety of tools - and seem to get the job done just fine. Anyone who claims that there is only one 'good way' has their work cut out to convince me that it's all written in stone somewhere. Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand (Temporarily in Alaska) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig Jungers wrote >>>>But it would be very interesting if very long paddles turn out to be the fad of the future in the same way GPs and SOF boats have over the past few years. Maybe if a few short-paddle users try Chuck's technique and report back we could get some better perspective. Until then I'm keeping an open mind.<<<<<< Maybe you should give it a try and report back to us Craig. I've been there, done that, and I'm not going back again. The first sea kayak paddles I used were 8 feet long as were almost all sea kayak paddles back in the 1970's. Now, I already had experience with WW paddles (which were then nearly 7' long but have also trended shorter since--as the WW kayaks have trended shorter and as a result sit deeper in the water now). By going shorter myself, and then promoting and offering shorter paddles for sea kayaking I was certainly not in the mainstream back in the early 1980's. After buying one of his WW paddles in a little longer length for a spare, I talked Bob Collmer, who had been making the strongest and lightest WW paddles, into making a few modifications to make them into sea kayak paddles for us. Collmer Paddles later became Lightning Paddles when Bob (a retired crafts teacher) sold to Hank Hayes and retired again when his increasing little side business was making him much busier than he wanted to be. BTW does anyone know where Hank is. He seemed to suddenly drop out of paddle making and I haven't been able to contact him since. The trend has been to shorter paddles (now even a little shorter than I advocated) and I think there are good reasons for that trend. Most who are paddling reasonably narrow (25" and under) kayaks will not be going back to longer paddles no how much they are promoted by an industry that might want to make your existing equipment seem obsolete so you will have to buy more new stuff from them. I'm thinking of how the bicycling industry operates. My first Mt. Bike had oval chain rings (but I quickly changed out the smallest to round) and now I never see oval rings on bikes at all. The shifter mechanisms keep coming and going too. Ski pole fads used to go longer and shorter at different times so that (for me at 6' tall) sometimes 60" was deemed right and at other times as short as 48" (but I've stayed in the 50 to--at most--54" range that works best for me). My skis were 7' 2" (218.5cm) when I was a teenager not yet full grown and they have trended shorter ever since. I have a lot of skis (most that I paid less than $10 for--they don't appreciate against the dollar like a good sea kayak does, in fact there is not many durable goods that depreciate as fast as skis). I mostly used 150cm skis last year (even though I haven't slowed down much as yet). Evolution is such that many things get left over from a time when they may have once been necessary. When sea kayaks were wide Kleppers, and the like, the Euro paddles needed to be longer (blade shoulder to blade shoulder) to clear the sides of the kayak and take a reasonable stroke. With narrower single kayaks that need disappeared but it took some time for the paddle trend to catch up and evolve into what worked better for the kayaks being used (except for maybe Chuck--do you know of any others, who you didn't instruct or personally influence, that use 8.5 or 9 foot paddles in narrow kayaks?). I took a lot of abuse from the British wing of sea kayaking (and their promoters) back in the 1980's for having longer cockpits than the 19 or 20" cockpit deemed essential for a "real" ocean kayak by them back then too. Maybe there is still a hard core tiny cockpit contingent but most Brit boats today have cockpits that are almost big enough (if you are my size) to get out of on a dock without having to crawl out on your elbows. I'm sure Doug and Chuck remember those days as they were both paddling and writing about it back then. I got a lot of flak for hard chines that "would catch and flip you over in the surf" too (originated from folks who had either never tried a hard chine kayak in surf (or probably any kayak in surf) or wanted to sell their rounded chine kayaks and imagined some disadvantage to hard-chines they could throw out as a red-herring. I even remember Mike Neckar saying "Ve don't belief in hard chines" back in the mid 1980's. A little later, multiple hard chines were on most new Necky kayaks (but I suspect they wee as much to stiffen a lighterweight plastic kayak as for any other design considerations). Mike used to promote fish-form hulls as being faster too but I was surprised to see that Necky Kayaks is now touting their new Looksha Elite as being Swede-form (and for a lot of the right reasons) in the June 2010 Sea Kayaker issue. I'm guessing Mike is no longer involved in Necky these days. BTW, did anyone else happen to notice that the Looksha Elite is not actually Swede-form (according to SK's numbers) but is instead quite fish-form? SK checked their numbers and claim they didn't error (and last I heard, no one had written them asking about the discrepancy either). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 1:46 AM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > > > Maybe you should give it a try and report back to us Craig. > I think we all went through the same (more or less) cycles of paddle shapes and sizes. And I'd be the last (ok... maybe second-to-last) to question Matt's experience and prowess. But I think I will take one of my 8' cedar 2x4s and carve out a longer GP. Or maybe I'll just take a nap. We'll have to wait and see. Many of the arguments against the *LONG* paddle are somewhat off the mark and been lost n the noise of "Euro versus GP". Remember that he's not using a *LONG* Euro paddle of 9' but a GP of 9' (unless I've totally misunderstood his argument). A GP of 9' will have substantially less mass (and windage) at the end of that long lever arm than a Euro will and so be correspondingly quicker to use. And, if made with the appropriate materials, still fairly light. My GP, carved from a single cedar 2x4, is as long as my ultra-light Lightning and almost as light... certainly much lighter than my w/w Werner paddles. I'm guessing that not many of us here have tried a 9-foot long GP and that all our bad memories of longer Euro paddles might not be as relevant to the actual debate as we think. Also, I don't think Chuck is advocating a switch to a long paddle for playboating in Deception Pass (for instance) where a paddler needs to be able to deftly and quickly change strokes to stay upright in the conditions. Rob's "dynamic paddling" in rough water is right on... and I'm pretty sure a *LONG* paddle wouldn't be appropriate. Of course, who is to say we all only use one type of paddle? I think Chuck's mostly saying that for longer trips we might want to consider the *LONG* GP paddle as an alternative to a shorter paddle and that it's still perfectly usable if the conditions deteriorate. You won't want to playboat with one but it won't kill you any quicker than a EP if the wind rises. Assuming you've spent some time planning your trip properly and used good weather judgment. Matt and Robb would probably not make a good candidate for a *LONG* paddle. But lots of paddlers just go from point "A" to point "B" in fine weather and I think that, for them, it would be worth a look. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I also think their has been some confusion as to the Euro or GP paddles and I tried to address that and say I was talking about Euro paddles and didn't have a lot of rough water experience with GP paddles (but enough to know that they are not good for a quick slap brace but must be gotten underwater before bracing is effective with them). However, I think Craig is confused here as to what kind of paddles Chuck has that are 8.5 and 9 feet long. I sold Chuck the extra long custom Lightning (Euro) paddle that was 9 feet long. I believe I also recently read that Chuck wrote that the 8.5 foot paddle was a Werner (I think Kalliste or something like that). If I have that correct ,this is also a Euro paddle. So I think I have not been confusing Euro and Greenland Paddles here at all. Chuck can straighten me out if I'm wrong about this. Contrary to what Craig wrote, I think Chuck IS advocating a long paddle for rough water and places like Deception Pass. Again, I hope Chuck clears this up for us. While I suspect many of the same problems and benefits of paddle length also apply to Greenland paddles of different lengths, the baseline of where the ideal length is for any given person likely differs from that of a Euro paddle. As Craig wrote, the windage will certainly be less on a GP than a Euro, but compared to a lightweight Euro paddle, I'll bet the GP has as much or more mass out in the last couple of feet as the Euro does (opposed to what Craig wrote), unless maybe we are weighing the tip on a finely pointed True North Quill rather than most GP paddles (BTW, Joel M., thanks for filling in my memory on the Vancouver, BC paddle company name with "North' in it). If two paddles weight the same (and other things are equal) I prefer the one with the light blades and the heavier shaft. Less weight to lift as high and I can move the blade quicker for bracing or getting the blade into the water again for the next stroke. The less athletic sunny day paddler Craig clams will not be hurt by the long paddle is the one that I think could be helped most by the lower gear provided by the shorter paddle and the less windage they would have to try to control the paddle against if the wind does come up. If anyone could deal with a longer (higher gear) paddle it would be the sprint racers, but I think you will find they are using paddles in the 215cm range. One of the disadvantages of going too short is that a fast paddler may find the stroke rate is too high to easily maintain coordination for the long haul. That is not an issue for the slow and easy paddler though. The other main restriction on going shorter is reaching the water over the side of the kayak and easily and comfortably being able to completely bury the blade to avoid the grip loss caused by ventilation of air from the surface to the lower pressure area behind the blade. Short blades make this easier with a wide blade Euro paddle, so I find it is the shaft length that is between the blades that sets the lower length limit for reaching the water over any given boat with any given paddler. Paddler arm length and back length (as well as boat, width depth, draft and seat height) are all variables here that might allow a shorter paddle or require a little longer one. I advocate trying shorter paddles and paddling hard for a bit to see if any one of these negatives might have been encountered and going just long enough of a paddle that these possible negatives (and any others you may encounter) are not an issue for you. (Note try this in all the kayaks you plan to use it in--double kayak paddlers need to go longer so the stern paddler can reach over the boat, but if the weaker paddler in a pair is in the bow, the bow paddler can go with a slight bit shorter paddle--maybe 5 or even 10 cm than the stern paddler--to keep the same stroke rate but not have to paddle as hard). Other than that, and having to be a little more careful not to get an air stroke in clapotis conditions, I see only advantages to using a shorter paddle and having less strain on your muscles and joints for maintaining any given speed, better quickness of repeat stokes and for bracing, less of a turning moment wasting energy with each stroke (or having the paddle blade closer to the surface--to be able to quickly withdraw the blade if needed), paddling in tight places, paddling closer to another paddler, a lighter paddle for the same materials used, less lever arm handed to the wind to fight against, the ability to accelerate quicker to take advantage of surfing following seas or sprinting out through surf (and other times when quick acceleration and a short sprint are an advantage, such as catching that faster paddler as he goes by to ride on his wake and recycle some of that energy he put into the water). Craig wrote: >>>>>>Many of the arguments against the *LONG* paddle are somewhat off the mark and been lost n the noise of "Euro versus GP". Remember that he's not using a *LONG* Euro paddle of 9' but a GP of 9' (unless I've totally misunderstood his argument). A GP of 9' will have substantially less mass (and windage) at the end of that long lever arm than a Euro will and so be correspondingly quicker to use. And, if made with the appropriate materials, still fairly light. My GP, carved from a single cedar 2x4, is as long as my ultra-light Lightning and almost as light... certainly much lighter than my w/w Werner paddles. I'm guessing that not many of us here have tried a 9-foot long GP and that all our bad memories of longer Euro paddles might not be as relevant to the actual debate as we think. Also, I don't think Chuck is advocating a switch to a long paddle for playboating in Deception Pass (for instance) where a paddler needs to be able to deftly and quickly change strokes to stay upright in the conditions. Rob's "dynamic paddling" in rough water is right on... and I'm pretty sure a *LONG* paddle wouldn't be appropriate. Of course, who is to say we all only use one type of paddle? I think Chuck's mostly saying that for longer trips we might want to consider the *LONG* GP paddle as an alternative to a shorter paddle and that it's still perfectly usable if the conditions deteriorate. You won't want to playboat with one but it won't kill you any quicker than a EP if the wind rises. Assuming you've spent some time planning your trip properly and used good weather judgment. Matt and Robb would probably not make a good candidate for a *LONG* paddle. But lots of paddlers just go from point "A" to point "B" in fine weather and I think that, for them, it would be worth a look. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Longer paddles make a mess of it for sprinters. It is a game of explosive force, in which you make the most of the big muscles of your legs and torso. The best way to do this in a sprint kayak is through hip and torso rotation. If your blade is off somewhere past Kansas, you won't be rotating much at all, and therefore you won't be exploding much at all -- about all you will be doing is turning your boat off course with each stroke/sweep. Another way to look at it is to start with an optimal explosive stroke. Don't worry about the paddle length at this point -- just focus on what you have to do to blow everything you have into one stroke (be it a conventional blade based stroke or a wing blade based stroke). Now consider that you have to maintain this level of explosion for each stroke for the distance of the course. What sort of recovery time do you need between each stroke so as to be able to maintain the intensity for a particular course length? Once you have a handle on the recovery time needed, you can then set your optimal stroke rate. Only at this point should you start playing about with shaft length and blade length, so as to determine what paddle will best permit your optimal stroke. If your paddle is too short, you will over-rev and run out of beans before the finish line because you are skimping of your recoveries, and you will not rotate far enough forward for your catch, so you will not have an optimal explosion due to lack of rotation. If your paddle is too long, the stroke rate will be too slow to permit optimal explosions each stroke (unless you are the Six Million Dollar Man, who explodes in slow motion with that nifty music), and you will be sweeping too much. In particular, if you are using a wing blade, you need to keep the shaft more vertical as compared against a conventional blade(OK, I exaggerate, but you get the idea), so although you tend to use a longer paddle with the wing stroke (when compared with a non-wing stroke, the wing stroke takes the blade further away from the boat as you stroke, so it goes a longer distance, so a longer paddle is needed), if the paddle is too long, you can't catch in a fairly vertical position close to the boat, so the stroke goes to hell and a hand basket at the catch, putting a nix on your stroke before you even get to the pull phase. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of MATT MARINER BROZE . . . . If anyone could deal with a longer (higher gear) paddle it would be the sprint racers, but I think you will find they are using paddles in the 215cm range. . . . . *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is nothing like a long paddle for leverage, so if you are upside down, disoriented, and paddling a boat with a high cockpit that makes it difficult to lie on the water throughout all phases of your roll, then a long paddle can be a blessing, for if you have a long enough lever, you can roll up the world. That's about as far as the utility of a long paddle goes, for although it is fine and dandy once you are upside down, it is not the best in keeping your right side up in the first place, for a long paddle is a slowly responding paddle. In wild water, you need to react extremely quickly, for water is moving every which way. It is a lot easier to react quickly with a short paddle than a long paddle. It will not do to have to constantly play catch-up because it takes so darn long to get your blade to where you want it to be. Have a look at what wild water paddlers use -- paddles the length of Dixie cup spoons and beanie propellers. It is the quick response time that is more valuable in keeping the boat right-side up than brute leverage. You also need to think about just what a brace is for. The paddler balances the boat through centre of gravity shifts made in anticipation of the effect the water will have on the hull. Since it is often not possible to perfectly predict how much of a shift will be needed at any given time, the paddler will tend to err on the conservative side by shifting too much, and then compensating for the excessive shift by bracing. A paddler who is skilled enough to be able to shift appropriately rather than excessively will have little need for the massive bracing effected by a long paddle. A paddler who is not as certain in how the water and the hull will interact will be more conservative, and therefore will shift more, which in turn will require a stronger corrective brace. It's no surprise that wild water paddlers tend to move to short paddles as they improve their skills. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote >Longer paddles make a mess of it for sprinters. It is a game of explosive >force, in which you make the most of the big muscles of your legs and torso. G'day, For the same reason I guess it would make a mess of getting off the beach, through multiple lines of surf coming in sufficiently rapid sets that stopping and timing runs isn't an option. If rapid acceleration with a long GP or Euro paddle isn't possible, then sooner or later getting off the beach is going to be a real hassle. I think that's one of the more important occasions in sea kayaking where explosive force is required no matter what. I wonder how the Greenlander people coped with this? Chuck is it possible to use a long GP to get through multiple lines of surf? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A quick point on weight and weight distribution. This is a simple observation made with limited data points, so I'm not claiming fact here, but just suggesting paddle weight in use is complicated by buoyancy in a similar but opposite way as windage. The weight of the paddle in air might be different than the effective mass of the paddle in use. My GP is quite buoyant. I'm not required to support a lot of it's weight while in use. And I think I use it to take advantage of that buoyancy by paddling a little more vertical at times thus resting the off-side weight on the submerged blade a little, and allowing the float to pop the submerged blade out of the water and start the swing going. Having an EP that also has buoyant blades I believe I can separate the buoyancy from the other EP/GP characteristics. I like the floaty blades on that EP too. A rhythm can be established that sort of bounces the paddle from side to side making use of the buoyancy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
And then there are those who use very short paddles and do not know about bracing at all -- I watched a 22 person 40 foot dragon boat flip this afternoon on their first power stroke at a race start. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Something just didn't seem right but I was having trouble putting my finger on it. My daddy always said that if you want to see how things work, take them to the extremes. So let's make the paddle blades very heavy but also very big and buoyant. When the paddle is absolutely vertical the buoyancy balances the weight at some point. Let's say at just the depth you want the blade to be. So if we make the paddle weigh 32 pounds and the blades are 1/2 of a cubic foot and weight 15.5 pounds each so the blade will support the paddle in seawater (which weighs 64 pounds per cubic foot) when the blade is fully submerged. To simplify things a bit lets say the paddle could be operated vertically but tumbled in the direction of kayak motion (like a paddle wheel) by the paddler. With a slight, but not imperceptible, shove to accellerate the upper blade slightly the heavy blade would fall forward due to gravity and the lower blade would pop up as the weight over it was reduced by the upper blade falling forward so here gravity and buoyancy would drive the forward stroke until both blades were out of the water (or laying flat in it if the paddler has yet to intervene--what seems like free energy here really isn't because energy was used to get the paddle to that vertical position in the first place and therein lies the rub). At that point the paddler is either holding up a 32 pound paddle against the accelleration due to gravity (coincidentally, 32 feet per second per second) or they are trying to pick the rear blade back up while pushing the front blade down (if they hadn't held it up against gravity) to restore the original vertical position. The forward falling blade has some momentum and falls forward with a splash but because the rising rear blade isn't vertical over it yet the front blade can not be sunk enough to immerse the blade without some additional effort required to work against the buoyancy. To make matters worse, the blade rising from behind didn't get enough "pop" to go to vertical on its own either (unless some extra effort had been made against buoyancy in the beginning to sink the other blade deeper than the paddle weight would do itself). Therefore, the paddler is going to have to work even harder to lift that rising blade against gravity while also pushing the other blade into the water against bouancy further than it will go on its own in order to again restore verticality again (where the buoyancy just balances the weight). Would you like to use my 32 pound buoyant paddle or would you want to have the blades weigh as little as possible and have no buoyancy? How about the paddle just weigh just one pound more in the blades and have blades buoyant enough to support the paddle with the blade fully immersed? How about the same weight paddle but with buoyant blades. There is no free lunch in the universe. ______________________________ > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:30:23 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] bracing and power > From: carey_at_jimparksfamily.com > To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > A quick point on weight and weight distribution. This is a simple observation made with limited data points, so I'm not claiming fact here, but just suggesting paddle weight in use is complicated by buoyancy in a similar but opposite way as windage. The weight of the paddle in air might be different than the effective mass of the paddle in use. My GP is quite buoyant. I'm not required to support a lot of it's weight while in use. And I think I use it to take advantage of that buoyancy by paddling a little more vertical at times thus resting the off-side weight on the submerged blade a little, and allowing the float to pop the submerged blade out of the water and start the swing going. Having an EP that also has buoyant blades I believe I can separate the buoyancy from the other EP/GP characteristics. I like the floaty blades on that EP too. A rhythm can be established that sort of bounces the paddle from side to side making use of the buoyancy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:33 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > Something just didn't seem right but I was having trouble putting my > finger on it.... > Yeah, I'm having trouble putting my finger on it too. I did a float test with my GP and it supports it's entire weight while held vertically with something like 80% of a single paddle blade in the water. So not only is the paddle very light, I can rest some of the weight of my arms on it sitting still with only one blade fully in the water. After thinking more about it while paddling yesterday, I came to the thought that buoyancy is a very small factor while in mid-stroke as there are so many things you can do with the blade angle to take the "weight" off your arms during a stroke, and to support your arms and heck, even the your torso, that the buoyancy of a paddle blade while in the water is much less important than the weight of the paddle while it is out of the water and your arms are all that's holding it up. And as for weight in the ends, clearly we have to accelerate/decelerate the paddle while paddling. Add to that the number of strokes besides the forward stroke that even I do that decelerate and accelerate the paddle where the mass in the ends is a bad thing, for example sculling. So, a zero mass paddle is the holy grail, and the closer to that the better. And since we have to rotate that mass while paddling, the less percentage wise in the ends the better. But there's always another question, and now I wonder if thinner is better in the ends. If the same rigidity was attained with the same mass in the blade, would we want the blade to sink or float, or be neutral? I have no answer for this, only the question and a current, unexplained preference (habit?) for float. Now, about the lift vectors and profile drag during the catch and release.... (he ducks) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sign me up for neutral blades, for ease of use under water, combined with a buoyant shaft to that the paddle floats when I drop it. In practice, however, I don't think there is a significant difference in performance between floating wooden blades, floating foam core blades, and sinking composite core-less blades. There is a significant difference in performance between blades with thick edges and blades with thin edges, so given the choice, I prefer composite blades that do not have foam cores. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of Carey Parks ' ' ' ' But there's always another question, and now I wonder if thinner is better in the ends. If the same rigidity was attained with the same mass in the blade, would we want the blade to sink or float, or be neutral? I have no answer for this, only the question and a current, unexplained preference (habit?) for float. Now, about the lift vectors and profile drag during the catch and release.... (he ducks) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: > Evolution is such that many things get left over from a time > when they may have once been necessary. Matt I completely agree with you - and I try to avoid fads. Like you, I have seen them come & go in various sports and I understand how convenient and/or hard-to-resist they may be to many a sporting-goods manufacturer who would like nothing better than the opportunity to declare a whole lot of gear 'obsolete'. I started with a euro paddle that was 'about right' according to an instructor (at the time) and later bought one about the same length. I wasn't very discriminating and just got on with it... I, personally, would never advise anyone to move to a longer Euro paddle, just for the sake of being 'longer'. I certainly don't know enough about it. I'd advise anyone to try going a little longer or shorter - if they are curious - to find out what they prefer, just as you once did. By the time I started playing with GPs, I was more curious and experimented a bit. I have rationalised my preference for a slightly longer (than recommended) GP by believing that our boats are wider and higher than the Greenland Inuit boats. Although Nanook's craft would challenge that assumption too ;-) Best Regards Paul Hayward, Auckland, New Zealand (Temporarily in Alaska) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck wrote: >>>>>The Iliad has a big blade.<<<<<< The first WW paddle I actually bought new (from PWS) was an Iliad (204 or 208cm, I think). The blades were just huge and didn't leave much shaft room between them. Great for bracing and learning to roll. That paddle was very heavy (and heavy duty and well made with strong glass blades molded over the shaft material) too and had a rubber grip material over a stout aluminum shaft. If I didn't paddle at least once a week, the rubber grip would give me blisters on the inside of my thumb. Once, not too far from the put-in, my wife capsized the brown glacier fed Nisqually River and had the Iliad snatched from her grip. The paddle then simply disappeared. Though feathered 90 degrees, no one on the WKC trip saw it float down river from where she capsized and most had been diligently looking to recover it. I hiked back to my car and got another paddle for her, and we continued down the river. Later, I thought that it must have gotten snagged on the bottom somehow. After the trip (or was it the next day?) Cam and I went back and with him holding a throwline upstream, I waded in the waist deep muddy river and felt around in the capsize area with my feet. Eventually I felt the paddle shaft with my foot or leg. It was vibrating as the blades, being held down in the rocks by the current fluttered in the current. I reached down and easily lifted it out. Later, realizing how much I hated that heavy blister making paddle I wondered why I had even bothered to go back and look for it. I gave it to a new paddling friend and told him to get a better paddle as soon as he could afford it. Chuck wrote: >>>>>>But sea kayaking requires unrelenting wrist flexing for offset paddles often resulting in tendonitis.<<<<<<< No, it doesn't! Read why not in the "Paddling" manual in the "Maunals" pickbox on our website. It is in the section about a third of the way in the Paddling manual called "Paddling Your Kayak" (the last long paragraph before "Motive Strokes"). Chuck wrote: >>>>>>I called Werner and asked them to make me some long paddles with 70 degree offset. I remember it well. They said you can't do that. No one makes paddles with less than 85 degree offset. Happily, they made what I asked. And what is acceptable today? Dogma, ever a pain in the ass.<<<<<<< Actually, I'm pretty sure Werner went to 80 degrees when they got off 90 feather. I already had Collmer making 75 degree feather angle paddles having determined by testing that 75 degrees was about as far an angle reduction as you could make without fluky behavior (diving and lifting on alternate sides in strong headwinds was the catch to going much further). I was using 15 dergee changes during testing. Not much trouble at 75 degrees, lots of trouble at 60 degrees, the most trouble at 45 degrees. Using my wrist protecting feather paddle technique (that I developed on the second day of a two week trip because of wrist problems I developed on the long first paddling day (but which hadn't bothered me much during years of sprinting and resting in WW river kayaking using the "bend the wrist back on the control hand" technique I had been taught). I had to do something or abort the two week trip and switching to unfeathered as John Dowd recommended was not an option for someone who had a reactive brace learned from several years of WW paddling. (Doug, John Dowd probably used a long paddle because he paddled double Kleppers--he was more influential than anyone in getting new paddlers to use unfeathered paddles though--to protect the wrists--at a time when feathering was almost universal--just another example of someone influential leading their flock astray. Dan Ruuska, Natural Designs, was an early example of a kayaking guru (for WKC anyhow) using--and advocating--unfeathered paddles when almost no one else did so for WW kayaking). I have to agree about dogma. Chuck wrote: >>>>>>>I had another paddle, don't remember what it was. Was it a Lightning? I can remember every paddle I ever had. Except I broke a paddle off Newport, RI one day while surfing some waves breaking high over a ledge. Poof, two single blades. I don't remember what that paddle was.<<<<<<< Chuck, if it was the Lightning paddle, that Cam and I are pretty sure we sold you (and you don't have now), you should have sent in back to us. Lightning's owner Hank Hayes, allowed us to offer a three year return policy for any reason at all (as long as you told us why you were returning it), including breaking it by accidentally backing your car over it. This guarantee was not for altuistic reasons. The three times as long as the competition (and unconditional) guarantee sold more paddles (and most loved them and very few ever broke). Most customers felt guilty about accepting a brand new paddle when they broke theirs due to their own negligence (and at least one even insisted on paying for his own mistake) but mainly we wanted to know if any of the paddles were failing in use so we could keep them as light as possible and still have minimal breakage during real kayaking uses. We figured if it didn't matter to the outcome what the customer told us, they would have no finacial motive to lie, and thereby giving us a false picture of what the real problems might be. We didn't want to be trying to fix what wasn't really broke. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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Craig wrote: >>>>>>>....If *LONG* paddles were as terrible as everyone says they are then why would at least some Inuit keep on using them? It sure would be fun if someone would make a 9' long GP and report back.<<<<<<<< I'm sure I could get Chuck to agree that just because everyone (else) does something one way that doesn't mean it is the best way of doing it. It is perplexing, but we will probably never know why, so we should stick to physical arguments that stand a chance of being measured rather than use appeals to authority. I often find myself in the unvast minority. Back in the sixties I thought that the best solution to the drug problem in the US was to make ALL drugs legal. Everyone, including drug users I knew, thought I was just crazy. More and more folks are coming around to my point of view over the years, including many very conservative thinkers such as Milton Freidman, William S. Buckley and most of the Libertarian Party. I have a plan to alleviate much of the damage this will cause (even though just doing it by proclamation would improve the present situation and costs to society immensely). I call my plan "The Truce with Drugs". Essentially it involves the government selling the drugs in a regulated way that the users can be kept track of (for research and pricing purposes) and to providing a secure place for the user (and the public at large the uncontrolled user might effect--or with some drugs restricting what can be attempted under thier influence if home use is allowed--like drunk driving laws) and pricing each drug according to what the cost of that individual drug is to society (and what is needed to protect the user and the society). All funds would be strictly used for education about the real dangers involved and to alleviate to cost to society that users of any particular drug are causing. There would be no profit motive incentive to spread addiction. The user would have a reasonable price and wouldn't likely have to steal and push them to maintain their addiction, Organized crime and turf wars between gangs should disappear with the profit gone as it would be hard to compete with the government price (unless like with gambling addiction the government gets greedy and encourages the practice to fund unrelated programs funded by the lottery--which I call the Stupid Tax). Less criminals would get filthy rich and be less able to corrupt the police departments. Think what would happen if the addictive substance nicotine/tobacco were made illegal. Yes, tobacco is a serious problem now but making it illegal would probably make Prohibition seem like a walk in the park. That is not all the details of the "truce" but you get the idea. BTW i don't ake any drugs unless a doctor can convince me they are really necessary for a cure. For pain, such as after I left the hospital after a hernial operation, I toughed it out (although I did fill the pain pill prescrition in case I couldn't). That includes caffine (I save it for when I could fall asleep in a dangerous situation otherwise), alchohol, aspirin and Chap-stick. My point is that the native paddlers may do it the way they do because that is what someone in a position of influence thought (and their ideas remained dominant long after they were dead) and the few who thought of a better way weren't listened to as they were obviously, out of step, deviant, or some other slanderous term for "doesn't believe what I believe (and most right thinking, honest, God fearing, American's believe, DADGUMMIT!"). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 7:01 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > > My point is that the native paddlers may do it the way they do because that > is > what someone in a position of influence thought (and their ideas remained > dominant long after they were dead) and the few who thought of a better way > weren't listened to as they were obviously, out of step, deviant, or some > other slanderous term for "doesn't believe what I believe (and most right > thinking, honest, God fearing, American's believe, DADGUMMIT!"). > > Hmm.... your last two sentences could logically apply to the current debate as well. Most of the naysayers to Chuck's idea of *LONG* paddles are, like me, mostly playboaters and former white water paddlers. And a majority of the arguments were based on areas where shorter paddles make more sense. Rob Gibbert's remarks about using the tool that best fits the job struck a chord with me. The first time I got a Lightning paddle in my hands I knew it was the paddle for me. But I'm an ex w/w paddler too. I loved that big blade, the lightness, the way it handled in the water so much that when mine disappeared at Deception Pass I found another and that one is my primary paddle. But I'm trying to keep an open mind here. I gave some consideration to the possibility that the Inuit did it because they had always done it. But I suspect there is more to it. The paddles in the photo I have are so long that making them would be a real chore. Heck, just finding the materials would have been a real chore. My two remaining 2x4 cedar boards aren't 9-feet long... more like 8. But I think I'll see for myself how a *LONG* GP works in a strictly long-distance paddle. I already have tried (and like) a wing paddle (my wing is in my hands in the top banner photo of my website), a GP, several Euro paddles. I love the fact that we can have such diversity. I would have never thought that SOF boats and Greenland paddles would have made such inroads but it's a wonderful niche and exciting to participate in it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: >>>>>My point is that the native paddlers may do it the way they do because that is what someone in a position of influence thought (and their ideas remained dominant long after they were dead) and the few who thought of a better way weren't listened to as they were obviously, out of step, deviant, or some other slanderous term for "doesn't believe what I believe (and most right thinking, honest, God fearing, American's believe, DADGUMMIT!").<<<<<<< Craig Jungers wrote: >>>>>>>Hmm.... your last two sentences could logically apply to the current debate as well. Most of the naysayers to Chuck's idea of *LONG* paddles are, like me, mostly playboaters and former white water paddlers. And a majority of the arguments were based on areas where shorter paddles make more sense. Rob Gibbert's remarks about using the tool that best fits the job struck a chord with me........ .......I love the fact that we can have such diversity. I would have never thought that SOF boats and Greenland paddles would have made such inroads but it's a wonderful niche and exciting to participate in it.>>>>>> SEE, like I said; your last sentence reveals that those long dead natives are still having an undo influence on paddlers and paddles today! The original kayaking tradition is now spanning cultures and continents. There are probably more skin kayaks in existence today than at any time in history. However, appeal to authority is not a logical argument, but is one that is often made because it has a certain appeal. I admire someone who can stand up alone for what he thinks is right and face the abuse of his jeering peers, even if he is wrong. I try to keep an open mind on things and have even tried to come up for reasons that might favor a longer paddle, even though I've had to stretch some to do so, and easily shot down most of my theories in that direction. But on analysis, most of the arguments for a longer paddle don't seem to hold much water and definitely don't fit with my own experience with different length paddles. Perhaps my physiology is differnent than Chucks's. I paddled with Chuck and others for about a week after the 1984 L.L. Bean Symposium in Maine. He was using a very long paddle back then and being a very powerful paddler few could outsprint him at the time. Maybe he had and especially efficient kayak at high speeds (in fact I know he did, as I designed it to be that way). But, maybe a long paddle actually works best for his particular physiology. Maybe he has especially strong slow twitch muscles and few fast twitch ones. I'd like to see him get into a kayak where the hull speed limit could not be reached (so friction was the main resistance) and then see if he was faster in a sprint using a longer paddle or a shorter one. Next maybe we could hook him, and several other paddlers in turn, up to a mask that measures oxygen uptake and see if he is more energy efficient using a longer paddle than a shorter paddle at a given speed over a given (long) distance. Next we could compare him with the oxygen uptake curves of lots of other paddlers using different length paddles (to find the ideal length paddle for each of them). Does anybody know which field of science would do this kind of research? Sports Medicine? Physiology? There might be a Master's Thesis in it for some budding university researcher. That way we could get something better than anecdotal evidence to argue about. Or we could agree on that aspect of paddling and go back to just arguing if bracing a kayak is better with a longer or shorter paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:23 PM, MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com>wrote: > Perhaps my physiology is differnent than Chucks's. > That could be... or perhaps the Inuit only used those extra long paddles for one thing... going out to get whales and towing them back. I'd be tempted to say that ancient Inuit were stockier than most of us now (or modern Inuit) but I really have no idea. Maybe he has especially strong slow twitch muscles > and few fast twitch ones. So others, with a physiology like Chuck's, might be better off trying a *LONG* paddle just to see if it works well for them. What is Chuck's body type? Chuck, do you know if you have slow-twitch or fast-twitch muscles (if you were a better sprinter on a bicycle than a climber on a bicycle is one way to tell)? I know I am definitely a better sprinter and can barely hang in there for a climb. That way we could get something better than anecdotal evidence to argue > about. Nahhhhhh. That would break with tradition. Or we could agree on that > aspect of paddling and go back to just arguing if bracing a kayak is better > with a longer or shorter paddle. > > I have my own problems with bracing using a GP but it could be that I did not understand that it braces better when submerged. When I can get back into a kayak again (which I think is going to be Real Soon Now) I'll have to see. Pam has come a long ways with hers but she cheated and took lessons. There is no doubt in my mind that there are way more SOF boats in existence now than ever before. Heck, I have three in my back yard. That's kinda cool I think. I really like SOF boats. Or at least the F-1. I would love to build one similar to the Mariner II and see how that does. If you were long-dead you'd still be having an influence on me, I guess. LOL Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA www.nwkayaking.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pam in Washington State wrote: >>>>>Dan Henderson at Cascade Canoe and Kayak seems to be THE person doing research on the efficiency of different paddling styles, at least in the Seattle area. He is the one you should contact about these questions.<<<<<< I've talked to and encouraged Dan many times in the past five years or so about doing this type of research and about building a force measuring paddle that can be hooked up to a computer at the same time as a knotmeter. I haven't talked to Dan real recently though, so I don't know how far in this direction he has gotten. Back in the 1980's, I worked on how this kind of paddle could work to compare kayaks (working with John Dowd and John Dawson for Sea Kayaker kayak tests) and thought might also be helpful in training paddlers to make more efficient paddle strokes. Sea Kayaker got experimenter rates from the test tank facility at UBC in Vancouver, BC and used tank tests instead (althought the articles generated still cost them five times as much as a normal article using the same space). They tank tested a couple of times at first (spread over three issues) and then later used mathematical calculations (regression analysis--much cheaper than tank tests) that I was frustrated with because beyond the calculated friction from wetted surface, it overemphasized length and looked at little other parameters that were important to the residual resistance (the resistances due to other than simple friction). I improved on this using the Taylor Standard Series I was familiar with from doing research on drag when first designing sea kayaks back in 1979 and 1980. I always wanted to see such a paddle built, but became much busier running our kayak business and never got to experimenting with actually trying to make a paddle fitted with strain guages and (I forget the name--some kind of accellerometer) devices to see the rotation and angles of the paddle at the same time along with a knotmeter. I looked into the equipment that would be needed though a few different times. In the mid 1980's, the analog/digital converters and the computers were separate devices and much less sophisticated and larger than they later became. Since then I have talked to several others who were interested in taking this kind of thing on and have tried to encourage them to do so, and volunteered to help out. My best bet at the present is Dan Henderson. A decade or more ago I asked Greg Barton if the racing association was doing, or had already done, this sort of thing, hoping to not be re-inventing the wheel as it were. As far as I know, so far, the electronic paddle is yet to exist. Greg said they did video studies to improve performance but didn't have an electonic paddle that he knew about (this was probably at least a decade or more ago when I asked him about it, so maybe it has been done since and I haven't heard about it--national racing associations tend to work in secret to get an edge in future competitions). I think such a paddle could answer a lot of questions and could be very useful for instructors as well. It might even be rigged up to provide direct feedback to the paddler so they could learn to feel when their stroke was optimized. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.merlingear.com/dataproducts.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of MATT MARINER BROZE I always wanted to see such a paddle built, but became much busier running our kayak business and never got to experimenting with actually trying to make a paddle fitted with strain guages and (I forget the name--some kind of accellerometer) devices to see the rotation and angles of the paddle at the same time along with a knotmeter. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard, thank you for bringing this new electronic paddle to my attention. It appears to be nearly exactly how I envisioned it needed to be with strain gauges out near each blade on the shaft and three rotational accelerometers to position its orientation exactly in space at all times. The rotation sensors I felt would be a needed to prove the paddle was being used in a consistent manner during trials of different boats. I've already e-mailed Chris at Sea Kayaker the link in the hopes that they can get one to review ASAP. My hope is that the force data from one can be combined with data from a knotmeter or GPS in order to generate a drag curve for a test kayaks over a range of speeds from slow to sprinting (by a strong paddler). It may take a strong consistent paddler to get repeatable results or maybe we will find many paddlers who will get the same results for the amount of horizontal energy put into the water with the paddle. This paddle seems to be able to calculate horizontally directed energy itself because of the rotational sensors. Hopefully that may mean many paddlers could get the same drag result for a given kayak. Because several factors such as yaw due to the paddle's side to side force application and how that combines with the hulls shape (that aren't tested by towing tanks) could be taken into account there is the hope on my part that the drag on a kayak in real world applications could be used to compare kayaks in a way that, hopefully, can be more accurate than has been able to be done in the past even using a towing tank. I also hope this paddle could be a tool instructors can use to improve the forward paddling efficiency of their students. Hopefully one day, the price will come down as more are sold and development costs are amortized, so that a serious paddler will be able to own or at least rent one for long enough to optimize their paddling efficiency. By that time the paddle may be developed to the extent it can give the paddler biofeedback instantly when they are paddling in an optimally efficient way and they can learn to stay in the zone using that feedback. There might be a way to extend the length of such a paddle (maybe a joint in the middle where sections could be added or by using replaceable blades) where we could end the power half of the paddling effiency argument. > From: culpeper_at_tbaytel.net > To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com; paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] bracing and power > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:01:34 -0400 > > http://www.merlingear.com/dataproducts.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Henderson at Cascade Canoe and Kayak seems to be THE person doing research on the efficiency of different paddling styles, at least in the Seattle area. He is the one you should contact about these questions. Pam in Washington State But, maybe a long paddle actually works best for his particular physiology. Maybe he has especially strong slow twitch muscles and few fast twitch ones. I'd like to see him get into a kayak where the hull speed limit could not be reached (so friction was the main resistance) and then see if he was faster in a sprint using a longer paddle or a shorter one. Next maybe we could hook him, and several other paddlers in turn, up to a mask that measures oxygen uptake and see if he is more energy efficient using a longer paddle than a shorter paddle at a given speed over a given (long) distance. Next we could compare him with the oxygen uptake curves of lots of other paddlers using different length paddles (to find the ideal length paddle for each of them). Does anybody know which field of science would do this kind of research? Sports Medicine? Physiology? There might be a Master's Thesis in it for some budding university researcher. That way we could get something better than anecdotal evidence to argue about. Or we could agree on that aspect of paddling and go back to just arguing if bracing a kayak is better with a longer or shorter paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes Sir, that is correct, however, I do not know him personally. He's their lead designer. I beleive he was the former Canadian Olympic slalom coach (if not Canada, it was Britain). Nonetheless, he knows what he's doing. I know of him from a friendship with the former Lendal blade designer, Neil. They still carry on. Rob -----Original Message----- From: MATT MARINER BROZE <marinerkayaks_at_msn.com> To: rcgibbert_at_aol.com Sent: Fri, Jul 23, 2010 12:14 am Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] bracing and power Is this the same Spike who did work (or maybe still does) for Necky kayaks. If so, I've heard his name but I didn't realize he was an Olympic coach. > To: marinerkayaks_at_msn.com > From: rcgibbert_at_aol.com > > Have you spoken with Spike Gladden from JOI, Burlington-WA, about > thjis. An ex Olympic coach like him might be a good resource. > > Rob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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