I will attempt one last time to make this post by sacrificing a virgin to the email gods. To Sarah Ohmann; : I guess by your call all the folks on : this list who have had a problem with : a group are not fit to be leaders. For the sake of clarifying the obvious, I will quote part of what I stated in my original post. > and this leader fails to keep control of the group, Take note of the word control. It does not mean problem. Once you understand the difference the rest of your argument is irrelevant. : or b) have a leadership style : similar to that of Slobodan Milosevic. You and Mr. Kruger imply that authoritarian leadership means a heavy hand. I recommend you add a course or two in leadership to add to your paddling education so that you may understand the difference. I will again refer you to the original message. > Your group leader may be the nicest or the > meanest SOB you ever met, but maintaining > control over any situation, or preventing > it in the first place, is what counts. Some of the best leaders I have ever paddled with never had to raise their voice except to overcome wind or distance. : Maybe instead of slamming people you could : say something constructive about how you : prevent problems???? I would suggest I did just what you ask. To Dave Kruger; : I think I'll learn something from your : response. I'm waiting ... My response to Ms. Ohmann should satisfy your curiosity. To Dana Decker; : Some people only see back and white : and can't see all the other shades : out there. They are best ignored. I would tend to agree. To Ralph Diaz; <partial quote. see original for proper context> : ...people's salaries, promotions and : careers are on the line and they : tend to listen better...i.e. money : is on the line. I would propose that people's lives are on the line, and are a better motivation than money. I will agree that different conditions will present themselves on the water than will present themselves in other situations. This only calls for a different set of solutions, and not the abandonment of managerial and leadership skills. If this is again eaten by the email gods you're on your own. john Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>If you are ever on a group paddle with a designated leader, and this >leader fails to keep control of the group, resign yourself to never >paddle with him/her again. Wow. If I followed your advice, I wouldn't be able to paddle with any of the experienced paddlers I know. I guess by your call all the folks on this list who have had a problem with a group are not fit to be leaders. Every local paddler I know who leads trips professionally or informally has had some problem at some point, including myself. Each one has tried to figure out why things went wrong and how to prevent it from ever happening again, as have many people on this list. Which I find pretty encouraging. I suspect that if you've never had a problem in twenty years of paddling you are a) practically perfect in every way, or b) have a leadership style similar to that of Slobodan Milosevic. Maybe instead of slamming people you could say something constructive about how you prevent problems???? Sarah Ohmann *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:11 PM 4/4/99 -0500, Sarah Ohmann wrote: >>If you are ever on a group paddle with a designated leader, and this >>leader fails to keep control of the group, resign yourself to never >>paddle with him/her again. > >Wow. > >If I followed your advice, I wouldn't be able to paddle with any of the >experienced paddlers I know. > >I guess by your call all the folks on this list who have had a problem with >a group are not fit to be leaders. Every local paddler I know who leads >trips professionally or informally has had some problem at some point, >including myself. Each one has tried to figure out why things went wrong >and how to prevent it from ever happening again, as have many people on this >list. Which I find pretty encouraging. > >I suspect that if you've never had a problem in twenty years of paddling you >are a) practically perfect in every way, or b) have a leadership style >similar to that of Slobodan Milosevic. > >Maybe instead of slamming people you could say something constructive about >how you prevent problems???? > >Sarah Ohmann > > Sarah Some people only see back and white and can't see all the other shades out there. They are best ignored. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > At 01:11 PM 4/4/99 -0500, Sarah Ohmann wrote: > >>If you are ever on a group paddle with a designated leader, and this > >>leader fails to keep control of the group, resign yourself to never > >>paddle with him/her again. > > > >Wow. > > > >If I followed your advice, I wouldn't be able to paddle with any of the > >experienced paddlers I know. > > > >I guess by your call all the folks on this list who have had a problem with > >a group are not fit to be leaders. Every local paddler I know who leads > >trips professionally or informally has had some problem at some point, > >including myself. Each one has tried to figure out why things went wrong > >and how to prevent it from ever happening again, as have many people on this > >list. Which I find pretty encouraging. > > > >I suspect that if you've never had a problem in twenty years of paddling you > >are a) practically perfect in every way, or b) have a leadership style > >similar to that of Slobodan Milosevic. > > > >Maybe instead of slamming people you could say something constructive about > >how you prevent problems???? > > > >Sarah Ohmann > > > > > > Sarah > Some people only see back and white and can't see all the other shades > out there. They are best ignored. > > Dana Dana is right of course but the subject does deserve some more thought. I gave Gabriel Romeu a hard time in a joking fashion for introducing time-proven managerial skills to a put-together group paddling trip because there is quite a difference between coordinating and motivating a staff and coordinating a paddling group. Coordinating a group at work has a built-in attention getter...people's salaries, promotions and careers are on the line and they tend to listen better...i.e. money is on the line. The same is true of a commercial trip, for the most part. People pay a guide and his/her staff to guide them. Money is on the line and so the guide and staff (if they want repeat business and a good reputation) train themselves and do their job (for the most part) and their clients, having shelled out good money are more inclined to listen. Obvious, there are exceptions. But can you picture some one paying a daytrip company $60-80 (pretty typical fee for a day's outing not necessarily including cost of boat rental) and then ignoring the guide and paddling out of sight. I wrote up something earlier that came from an article I wrote for our Hudson River watertrail newsletter and which I put on here. Some additional thoughts: 1. Keep instructions to a minimal and simple. Lay out the gist of the trip, ask what people feel about its general parameters and then go for it. 2. Don't micromanage every minute on the water. If your group is off to the side away from traffic and in relatively calm conditions, let it spread out. What is the worse can happen. Someone might go over and be uncomfortable. 3. Save the insistence of getting the group tightly together for crossing situations in either traffic or heavier conditions. That is where it counts. 4. Make certain someone with some experience is with weaker paddlers. The weaker ones make themselves known not by admission necessarily, but rather behavior on the water. A couple of examples of when it works and when it doesn't work. A) Last year I happened to be launching in Manhattan on the Hudson into the harbor at the same time a group was going out. I knew the leaders who really haven't done much of this and asked if I would take over. I said sure. They are friends. Things weren't bad on the way out as it was early on a Saturday morning. But by the time we headed back, we had lots of wind with us and a strong favorable current and we were crossing through tons of traffic. It was imperative that we not spread out, that we would be real visible and that we stayed together. I decided to do the crossing in sections, stopping every so often to let traffic pass before crossing on to another section of the river. Here is what I did: a) For greatest visibility for the group, I put paddlers in the brightest boats (yellow) with some experience at either end of our formation. b) Our formation was pretty close to a chorus line, i.e. the boats lined up in line with the river and not strung across. Not actually fully a chorus line as some boats were nestled slightly behind in a close contact stagger with the chorus line. c) As we went across the first section of the river, I immediately spotted what boat was the slowest at that point. It was an older fellow in a double with a woman in the front who wasn't doing much paddling; he had earlier been doing just fine but he was tiring. I called to the closely knit group that we would key our speed and our position on him. d) This worked just fine. I kept letting the group drift with the boats that were in least control of their tracking. But we drifted as a group with the current and wind as we made progress across. But then we hit a snag. e) As we neared the last quarter of our crossing, an oil barge and tug was coming along. With a group of experienced paddlers with any kind of sprint speed, it would have been easy to get across in front of the slow moving barge and tug. But I couldn't risk it with the unknown sprint speed of some of the paddlers. So I wheeled the group around. f) Instead of being a chorus line with some boats trailing slightly behind us, we wheeled around to go as a single file (again with some staggered boats) along the same line of travel as the barge and tug. We were still making progress but we were a small target as we allowed the barge and tug pass parallel to us. When he passed, we wheeled around again to a chorus line and finished the crossing. I considered that a successful trip. The ingredients contributing to this were: --several of the paddlers were friends who would listen to my suggestions for the easiest and best way to proceed --I did not micromanage except in places where it counted --I got people to play a game in trying to keep the chorus line straight; they took it as fun; they particularly liked the wheeling around manuever...it looked smart and felt good to feel control of ourselves in the chaotic traffic situation --the situation was froth with danger...lots of traffic; that was certain something to smarten people up without much yelling or screaming --I set an obvious point for all to guage their speed, the slower guy and gal in the double --I let the drift in tracking occur with just a minimum of corraling which meant no one tired or was overly frustrated; sure I can control my boat at every moment but I know others can't...I bow somewhat to them while getting them to make a bit of effort to go straight...it is a matter of proportions and balance B) This also an example from last year, one that didn't work as I would hope in the very same waters. It was in mid-week so there wasn't much pleasure boat traffic but still plenty of ferries especially at the end of the trip which coincided with the beginning of rush hour. The group was homogeneous in the sense that they were all from the same company, a publication for youngish professionals on enterntainment, sports, etc. It didn't go as well as the pick-up one mentioned in example A above. We were always scattered on the river even the crossings. It was hard to get some of the individuals to listen. Some would race off without looking back and showing signs of being totally unaware of their surroundings. Some were real slow. I had one other good person with me but it was a bitch of trip in terms of our exposure to potential problems. I know it, my colleague escort person did too. But the group for the most part was oblivious. A couple of reasons, I guess: --these were physically fit people with a go-go attitude --they were relieved to be out of the office and got intoxicated with the quite stunning setting of the city skyline --they were pretty unsavvy about a lot of things...for example didn't know what Ellis Island was, kinda young and self-centered --they were showing off to each other, at least some were, and that manifested itself in those forays of taking off ahead of the group --they were too young to appreciate the dangers and kind of feeling invincible...again a matter of age and the go-go slant of the publication --their boss was along. She tried to help but the group for the most part paid her little mind either After awhile I realized there was nothing I could do. I sure could have used the superior leadership qualities of John Kortis who started this string on "Group Paddling-A warning." I managed to just keep the group in a modicum of control when in the greatest areas of exposure (for example, crossing in front of where the ferries emerge blind from Ellis Island slips) but just barely. However, I was real uncomfortable throughout the trip and was sure glad when it was over. So, you win some and you lose some. If I ever am confronted with something like that again, I have some ideas I would try but not fully formulated...the exploding collar sure sounds like a good one. :-) ralph diaz -- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I gave Gabriel Romeu a hard time and I thought of it as a reality check.... -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com -------> furniture http://users.aol.com/romeugp ---> paintings, prints, photos + stuff http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR --> a daily journal of observations *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I would propose that people's lives are on the line, and are a better > motivation than money. I will agree that different conditions will > present themselves on the water than will present themselves in other > situations. This only calls for a different set of solutions, and not > the abandonment of managerial and leadership skills. In an attempt to take a lighter tact, I'd like to change the subject slightly. How do you prepare yourself for a catastrophic illness of a paddling mate on water? Is towing the primary option? I'm first aid and CPR qualified, but I doubt I could pull off CPR from a kayak. I carry flares and a cell phone (no vhf yet, but I did save Ralph D's review for the future) and tend to paddle in protected waters so I would be near shore. Just wondering if anyone has had to deal with such a 'problem'. When we did the 'who we are' thread, the median age was around 47 I think, so it isn't too far of a stretch to prepare for such a possibility, is it? Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Kortis wrote: > To Ralph Diaz; > > <partial quote. see original for proper context> > : ...people's salaries, promotions and > : careers are on the line and they > : tend to listen better...i.e. money > : is on the line. > > I would propose that people's lives are on the line, and are a better > motivation than money. I will agree that different conditions will > present themselves on the water than will present themselves in other > situations. This only calls for a different set of solutions, and not > the abandonment of managerial and leadership skills. People's lives are always more important than money but I think you missed my point or I did a poor job explaining it. My point is that general paddlers joining a group paddle organized by some club get caught up in the euphoria of the paddling experience. In some or many cases they are oblivious to the dangers on the water and, because of this are not paying attention or heeding suggestions of a leader. When money is on the line, they respond to that, i.e. they pay for the service of a leader and his/her crew and therefore tend to listen more and group in closer to the leader; they want their money's worth. That is where the money comes in. Also regarding managerial skills...by definition they are exercised in a managerial situation, i.e. a workplace. A workplace consists of individuals drawing salaries, worried about promotions or getting fired. They are more inclined to heed what a manager says because there is money on the line than if in recreational voluntary environment. In contrast to a paid-for tour service or a job-related situation, the interplay between a volunteer leader of a trip and the people who join in the group paddle has wholely different dynamics. Money is missing as a motivation and, while lives really can be on the line, participants in a group paddle may not perceive this. That is why at one point I facetiously said that perhaps one way to get participants in a group paddle into the right mood is to stage an accident at the beginning of the trip and make it look scary. Thereafter, they may pay more attention and be responsive to general instructions such as staying close together, etc. The few times something has gone wrong on a trip I have led, the group's cohesion suddenly grew multifold. Nothing like fear to get the mind concentrated. A group of kids might wander into a vacant house at night and dart around in all directions, but the moment a shutter slams, the kids suddenly glue themselves in a hurry to some strong or older figure. BTW, I have not heard you offer specific suggestions regarding handling groups of paddlers (in various situations) beyond some general references to "leadership skills." Several of us have done so with very specific tips, pointers and actual experiences. You obviously have vast experiences and it would be just great if you share some of the things you have done specifically to make group trips safe and enjoyable. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/5/99 4:00:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kayakman61_at_hotmail.com writes: << I will attempt one last time to make this post by sacrificing a virgin to the email gods. To Sarah Ohmann; : I guess by your call all the folks on : this list who have had a problem with : a group are not fit to be leaders. For the sake of clarifying the obvious, I will quote part of what I stated in my original post. > and this leader fails to keep control of the group, Take note of the word control. It does not mean problem. Once you understand the difference the rest of your argument is irrelevant. >> John, I've got to agree with Sarah on this. I took good note of what you both wrote, and I thought it obvious that Sarah, having the experience and intelligence to know the difference, meant "a problem with a group" -- the type of problem where a paddler or group fails to follow your otherwise stellar leadership. Failing to keep control doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad leader. There are those who just will not be lead. And unlike the military, you're not allowed to shoot them for desertion, or court martial them for insubordination. Come to think of it, I have to agree with all the rest of those you managed to get responses from. Keep it up, and you'll get more feedback than my good buddy Scott usually gets. And he actually *tries* to be controversial.:-) Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Last summer on Day 1 of a week long trip along the Maine coast, one member of the 4 person group became quite seasick half way to our island destination. As it turned out, the SickOne had patches but was not sure it would be needed. When the sickness hit, it hit hard and the SickOne became totally uncommunicative. We were paddling close enough that we were quickly able to stabilize the boat while this person emptied their stomach contents. We hooked up a tow line and one person towed (we should have changed off but didn't at the time) and two people paddled alongside the SickOne (there was considerable woobling). The side paddlers never had to pull in to stabilze the SickOne fortunately as that would have slowed the progress considerably but we could have in an instant if that was needed. Luckily there was another island between us and our intended destination where we were able to stop and set up camp. The next day a patch was applied first thing and the group set off for a test paddle. Success. No more sickness problems. But we were lucky to have three to assist. It could have been a real bad scene with less. Lesson learned. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: Robert Woodard[SMTP:woodardr_at_tidalwave.net] > Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 8:53 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning > > > I would propose that people's lives are on the line, and are a better > > motivation than money. I will agree that different conditions will > > present themselves on the water than will present themselves in other > > situations. This only calls for a different set of solutions, and not > > the abandonment of managerial and leadership skills. > > In an attempt to take a lighter tact, I'd like to change the subject > slightly. How do you prepare yourself for a catastrophic illness of a > paddling mate on water? Is towing the primary option? I'm first aid and > CPR > qualified, but I doubt I could pull off CPR from a kayak. I carry flares > and > a cell phone (no vhf yet, but I did save Ralph D's review for the future) > and tend to paddle in protected waters so I would be near shore. > > Just wondering if anyone has had to deal with such a 'problem'. When we > did > the 'who we are' thread, the median age was around 47 I think, so it isn't > too far of a stretch to prepare for such a possibility, is it? > > Woody > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net, "'Robert Woodard'" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning Date sent: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:24:00 -0400 > When the sickness hit, it hit hard and the SickOne became > totally uncommunicative. We were paddling close enough that we were quickly > able to stabilize the boat while this person emptied their stomach contents. > We hooked up a tow line and one person towed (we should have changed off but > didn't at the time) and two people paddled alongside the SickOne (there was > considerable woobling). Interesting scenario, Debbie. At the Great Lakes Sea Kayak Symposium last summer, I learned a very effective tow technique for situations like the one you've described. A partially incapacitated paddler --- whether from fatigue, injury, sea-sickness, hypothermia, etc. --- where the towee really needs to be stabilized and observed. It's really pretty simple, and it requires very little extra equipment. It's called a contact tow, and I believe it was described very well in a recent Sea Kayaker --- dunno the issue --- article on towing techniques. Essentially, you lash your (the towing) kayak to the towee's with a nominal three foot length of three or four mm climbing line terminated in two Wichart (or equivalent) stainless steel snap clips. The towee is maneuvered to face you, parallel to you boat, with one end of this short tow line in his bow loop; the other end is clipped into one of your deck fittings just in front of you --- a fitting you can reach quickly and easily. The towee lies or leans across your foredeck ---hopefully blowing lunch to leeward and clearing your boat --- and is stabilized by your boat while you reach across his bow to provide somewhat uneven but reasonably effective propulsion. The towee rides along, facing backwards but still clearly in your view and in verbal contact --- an advantage, particularly, if he or she is frightened or panicky. A variation --- usefull in your scenario, Debbie --- would be to have another paddler with a tow line clip into your bow loop, assisting in the propulsion. Or, heck, two in tandem or parallel. Whatever. The important part is that you can see the person you're assisting and watch for further deterioration in his/her condition --- allowing you to radio for help if it were needed but not if the towee remains in stable condition --- and to stablilize the victim by providing some potentially needed physical and psychological support. The rig --- if you use Wichart clips --- is going to run $8 to $10, and can be left clipped into your decklines on the foredeck. I've tried the technique several times in canned situations --- as both victim and rescuer --- and it appears to be highly effective; you can maintain a pretty good pace, even if it's just you and the victim. I don't know if the Great Lakes symposium will be repeating that demo and clinic, but I found it to be excellent and most worthwhile, and hope they continue it. Off the subject a little, but just about every local paddler there seemed to have a tow rig on his or her boat and/or PFD, and most appeared to have a contact tow line, as well. Understand it's another Stan Chladek influence. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > Essentially, you lash your (the towing) kayak to the towee's with a > nominal three foot length of three or four mm climbing line > terminated in two Wichart (or equivalent) stainless steel snap clips. At the risk of disappointing people who mistakenly think I know everything: Ok, Jack, what's a Wichart? While you are it, what's a cubit? :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com Date sent: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 18:30:34 -0700 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning > > At the risk of disappointing people who mistakenly think I know > everything: Ok, Jack, what's a Wichart? While you are it, what's a > cubit? :-) Okay, sorry about the Wichart business --- and now I really hope I spelled it right. Anyway, see my response to Dave. (If there are any other Wichart questioners further down in my pile of e-mail tonight, you're on your own.) The other question from my Gotham buddy --- re the cubit --- I will accept as a rhetorical straight line from a very old Bill Cosby routine. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > > > At the risk of disappointing people who mistakenly think I know > > everything: Ok, Jack, what's a Wichart? While you are it, what's a > > cubit? :-) > > Okay, sorry about the Wichart business --- and now I really hope I > spelled it right. Anyway, see my response to Dave. (If there are > any other Wichart questioners further down in my pile of e-mail > tonight, you're on your own.) Oh, you meant Wichard safety tethers! Why didn't you say so in the first place? That mispelling threw me off (now if you believe that, I have a bridge I can sell you...). I am surprised you stated the stuff as being inexpensive since Wichard items are on the costly side as behooves sailing safety lines that lives are very much dependent on. It runs in the $60 range. > > The other question from my Gotham buddy --- re the cubit --- I will > accept as a rhetorical straight line from a very old Bill Cosby > routine. Yes, that dates you and me in remembering Cosby's Noah and the Lord routine. I am also glad you corrected the point about hooking on to a bow fitting. I couldn't figure out how to quickly release such a connection. Hooked to a deck line makes more sense. I have never tried such a contact tow. Probably from being around folding kayaks too long. This is not meant as a commercial or editorial but they shine when it comes to a paddler suddenly rendered ill or injured. Since the boats stability is inherent to their design and not a function of the skills and alertness of the paddler, an ill/hurt paddler is in a lot less danger of capsizing while being towed on a line from behind the towing kayak and need not have a boat alongside to steady him or her. Just encourage the person to slouch a bit in the boat and everything is just dandy; and even if they don't slouch, things should be alright too. Another point with the folding kayaks, since they have their bouyancy along the sides of the kayak rather than at the ends (such as watertight compartments, although they should also have airbags fore and aft too), a folding kayak with lots of water sloshing around in the cockpit remains quite stable and is not at all tippy as is a semi swamped hardshell which tends to act like a rotisserie. best, ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com Date sent: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:03:29 -0700 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning > Oh, you meant Wichard safety tethers! Why didn't you say so in the > first place? That mispelling threw me off (now if you believe that, I > have a bridge I can sell you...). I am surprised you stated the stuff > as being inexpensive since Wichard items are on the costly side as > behooves sailing safety lines that lives are very much dependent on. It > runs in the $60 range. I, once again, stand corrected. Must've had another CRS attack. Dr. Bagboat speaks the truth, and spells better than I do, as well. The two inch Wichard fittings I used to make up my contact tow list in the Defender catalog (#116079) at $11.20 each --- although I bought them in Annapolis at Annapolis Performance Sailing for a couple of bucks less, I think. The "releasability" issue is still there, however --- as Hooligan said. If I wanted to release the towee, I would simply de-clip <my> deckline --- but, having said that, I'm not sure how "simple" that would be in extremis! Guess the Sick One draped over my foredeck gives me some stability as I give to him, but I'm sure there's stuff that could still go wrong. Have to get out there and try some variations. All that said, it's still a good procedure if your buddy is incapacitated and at risk, and especially if there's just the two of you. Give it a try! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > Interesting scenario, Debbie. > > At the Great Lakes Sea Kayak Symposium last summer, I learned > a very effective tow technique for situations like the one you've > described. [snip] It's called a contact tow, > and I believe it was described very well in a recent Sea Kayaker --- > dunno the issue --- article on towing techniques. > > Essentially, you lash your (the towing) kayak to the towee's with a > nominal three foot length of three or four mm climbing line > terminated in two Wichart (or equivalent) stainless steel snap clips. New one on me, Joq -- what is a Wichart clip -- is this like a carabiner? Does it have quick-release capability? Thanks. -- Dave Kruger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:06:26 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> Copies to: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net, "'Robert Woodard'" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>, "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning > > New one on me, Joq -- what is a Wichart clip -- is this like a carabiner? > Does it have quick-release capability? > Wichart is a manufacturer of very high quality sailing hardware, Dave. These are just very good small stainless steel 'biner-like clips with a wire bale. They are not quick release --- a possible disadvantage --- but, with the two boats essentially rafted up and forward motion pushing the rescuee into the rescuer --- along with Sick One draped across the rescuer's foredeck, needing a quick release may not be much of a problem. Not so on conventional towing rigs, of course. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Although it is not as elegant as having a seperate short clip or strap, I have had good luck using the strap that tethers my paddle leash to the deck. It has a tiny version of the cam- type release buckle just like you would find on a divers weight belt so it can be released easily with one hand. I have been meaning to getting around to making a seperate strap and keeping it handy on deck. Usually with a contact tow you are in moderate conditions and traveling for relatively short distances so the ease of a quick release option is a bit less important. Victum in front facing you is the most reassuring for a nervous paddler, but with the seasick ones make sure they get past all the projectile vomiting first! Jack Martin wrote: > Date sent: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:06:26 -0700 > From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > To: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> > Copies to: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net, > "'Robert Woodard'" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>, > "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning > > > > > New one on me, Joq -- what is a Wichart clip -- is this like a carabiner? > > Does it have quick-release capability? > > > Wichart is a manufacturer of very high quality sailing hardware, > Dave. These are just very good small stainless steel 'biner-like > clips with a wire bale. They are not quick release --- a possible > disadvantage --- but, with the two boats essentially rafted up and > forward motion pushing the rescuee into the rescuer --- along with > Sick One draped across the rescuer's foredeck, needing a quick > release may not be much of a problem. Not so on conventional > towing rigs, of course. > > Jack Martin > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/8/99 6:46:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << but they shine when it comes to a paddler suddenly rendered ill or injured. Since the (folder) boats stability is inherent to their design and not a function of the skills and alertness of the paddler, an ill/hurt paddler is in a lot less danger of capsizing while being towed >> Ralph, A *bit* sweeping, that comment. Perhaps true for folding *boats*, but not for folding kayaks. If I were towing someone in a Klepper, I'd just throw them in the bilge with those famous rocks and they'd be stable as a spider with its stomach on the ground. But if they were in the Khats or one of the other performance kayaks, I'd post someone nearby. The stability of folders, like other craft, comes from the sum total effect of their hull designs and dimensions, not from the inflatables inside the skin. Only when *swamped* -- when the internal sponsons have water on both sides of them (giving them buoyancy and helping to right the boat when tilted), does the sponsons make a folder any more stable than a rigid craft of the same external shape. Or is there some benevalent blue fource I've never heard of that only acts on skin boats of Euro manufacture? :-) Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/8/99 6:46:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > > << but they shine when it comes to a paddler suddenly rendered ill or > injured. Since the (folder) boats stability is inherent to their design and > not > a function of the skills and alertness of the paddler, an ill/hurt > paddler is in a lot less danger of capsizing while being towed >> > > Ralph, > > A *bit* sweeping, that comment. Perhaps true for folding *boats*, but not > for folding kayaks. If I were towing someone in a Klepper, I'd just throw > them in the bilge with those famous rocks and they'd be stable as a spider > with its stomach on the ground. But if they were in the Khats or one of the > other performance kayaks, I'd post someone nearby. I am not sure how you distinguish kayaks and boats. It the vessel has pointed ends, a person sits in a hole somewhere that is spanned by something called a sprayskirt and uses a double bladed paddle it is a kayak. Or as Webster Dictionary says : "1. an Eskimo canoe made of a frame covered with skins exceopt for a small opening in the center and propelled by a double-blade paddle; 2. a portable boat styled like an Eskimo kayak. I would think that a folding kayak is closer to either definition than other vessels (skin covered over a frame and truly portable) The Khats is the only "performance" kayak of the foldables whatever that means and yes it is tippy with some of the same precautions about needing to have someone alongside if the Khats paddler is incapacitated. > The stability of folders, > like other craft, comes from the sum total effect of their hull designs and > dimensions, not from the inflatables inside the skin. Only when *swamped* -- > when the internal sponsons have water on both sides of them (giving them > buoyancy and helping to right the boat when tilted), does the sponsons make a > folder any more stable than a rigid craft of the same external shape. Or is > there some benevalent blue fource I've never heard of that only acts on skin > boats of Euro manufacture? :-) People get confused on this and it is understandable that they do. How can something holding compressed air (sponsons) that is located internally help stability? It would not if the kayak's sides were rigid but it works if the sides are soft, i.e. made of a skin or skin type material such as hypalon. On all folding kayaks that I am aware of the sponsons are either a) between the frame and skin pressing outward on the skin and creating, in effect airtubes alongside or b) are external to the skin itself, Nautiraids, in which they are even more like external sponsons. If the sponsons were inside of the frame (I don't know why they would be, then it would be like having them in a hardshell. The sponsons absolutely do come into play in stability over and above the broadness of the folding kayak. It is almost the effect of trying to submerge a balloon. Unless you have tried to tip over a folding kayak to experience the phenomenon it is hard to believe that it works but it does, to a degree, i.e. it ain't really fully like trying to submerge a balloon but rather in that direction. I don't want to exaggerate the claim. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack - what about the stern of the towee getting pushed out away from the tower, say with small quartering seas? I occasionally practice the "Short Assisted Tow" and it can require a considerable amount of effort on the tow-ee's part to keep their bow in at the cockpit of the tow-er as they lean over the back deck of the tow-er. This is without clipping up, of course. Actually, we've never practiced clipping up on this type of tow. I wonder if it would cause the tow-er to loose their tracking and have to perform a bunch of correction strokes? Can't wait to try. Maybe this weekend, ey Ralph? Oh, right. You're the one in the stable boat. Does that mean you're the coach? Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ ------------------------------------------------- > Essentially, you lash your (the towing) kayak to the towee's with a > nominal three foot length of three or four mm climbing line > terminated in two Wichart (or equivalent) stainless steel snap clips. > The towee is maneuvered to face you, parallel to you boat, with one > end of this short tow line in his bow loop; the other end is clipped > into one of your deck fittings just in front of you --- a fitting you can > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - A warning Date sent: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:23:52 -0400 > what about the stern of the towee getting pushed out away from the > tower, say with small quartering seas? I occasionally practice the "Short > Assisted Tow" and it can require a considerable amount of effort on the > tow-ee's part to keep their bow in at the cockpit of the tow-er as they lean > over the back deck of the tow-er. This is without clipping up, of course. > Actually, we've never practiced clipping up on this type of tow. I wonder > if it would cause the tow-er to loose their tracking and have to perform a > bunch of correction strokes? Dunno, Debbie, but it doesn't seem to be a problem. The contact tow line --- and, again, that's clipped into the towee's deckline fitting, not to his bow loop --- tends to hold the boats pretty much in line. It sounds awkward, but it works, and the short line holds the towee's bow in tightly against the tower's boat, and, with the added connection of the towee being draped across the tower's foredeck, the combination seems to be relatively easily propelled and controlled. (This seems to work better with a Euro-paddle rather than an indigenous paddle, especially on the side where you have to reach across the towee's bow to get to the water.) Excellent comments on the line release issue, as well. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/8/99 9:46:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << I am not sure how you distinguish kayaks and boats. . . . >> A bit snobbishly actually. If its big enough to row or has an aspect ratio beyond some undefined fatness ratio, it might be an Umiak, but not a kayak in my stuffy opinion. :-) <<Unless you have tried to tip over a folding kayak to experience the phenomenon it is hard to believe that it works but it does, to a degree, i.e. it ain't really fully like trying to submerge a balloon but rather in that direction. I don't want to exaggerate the claim. >> Well, Ralph, I've tested the secondary stability of most all the Feathercraft (if that counts). And yes, when they are sponson equipped, they have *big* secondary stability, at times even an annoying amount (that "training wheel" feeling) when taking steep wakes or surf from the side. But, disregarding the feeling of the soft sides, I still don't see or feel any real difference between their sudden high secondary stability and that supplied by a rigid boat with a similar extreme flare located above the waterline (such as the WS Rascal, Manteo, Pungo series). Is there a difference between pushing a balloon under water and submerging a glass net float or other rigid sphere of the same size? Does deformation of the skin and resultant redistribution of the buoyancy contribute something? At one time in the dark history of the flame wars, some forgotten figure claimed miraculous safety gains could be obtained with *any* boat of any shape or construction by strapping sp*ns*ns on the outside of the craft. What is different here? Curious minds want to know. :-) I'd truly like to believe that there is some magic or science there that I don't see, because I really do love skin boats. But my reason and my butt both tell me there is no magic. Perhaps you can describe the effect you claim in a manner by gray cells will accept. BTW, has there ever been any test conducted to try to document this? Thanks for your input, Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/8/99 9:46:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: > > << I am not sure how you distinguish kayaks and boats. . . . >> > > A bit snobbishly actually. If its big enough to row or has an aspect ratio > beyond some undefined fatness ratio, it might be an Umiak, but not a kayak in > my stuffy opinion. :-) I find it interesting how some of us tend to define an activity in an exclusionary way, i.e. our version is the only true version. So we won't allow something to be called a kayak unless it fits our own definition that is created by what we paddle and something else is a "boat" with a bit of perjorative to it. Kayaking has a curious peeking order: The Keowee and sit-on-tops are on the lowest rung; folding kayaks (or just "boats" in some views) occupy just a slightly higher order; plastic kayaks (really polyethylene) are looked down on by fiberglass kayakers; larger cockpit, beamier fiberglass kayaks are dismissed as "northwest" by purists in skinny British kayaks; these heavy as lead Brit kayaks are laughed at by those making their own lighter wood kit/plans kayaks or skin kayaks. > > <<Unless you have tried to tip over a folding kayak to experience the > phenomenon it is hard to believe that it works but it does, to a degree, i.e. > it ain't really fully like trying to submerge a balloon but rather in that > direction. I don't want to exaggerate the claim. >> > > Well, Ralph, I've tested the secondary stability of most all the Feathercraft > (if that counts). And yes, when they are sponson equipped, they have *big* > secondary stability, at times even an annoying amount (that "training wheel" > feeling) when taking steep wakes or surf from the side. But, disregarding > the feeling of the soft sides, I still don't see or feel any real difference > between their sudden high secondary stability and that supplied by a rigid > boat with a similar extreme flare located above the waterline (such as the WS > Rascal, Manteo, Pungo series). Is there a difference between pushing a > balloon under water and submerging a glass net float or other rigid sphere of > the same size? Does deformation of the skin and resultant redistribution of > the buoyancy contribute something? At one time in the dark history of the > flame wars, some forgotten figure claimed miraculous safety gains could be > obtained with *any* boat of any shape or construction by strapping sp*ns*ns > on the outside of the craft. What is different here? Curious minds want to > know. :-) Big differences. I don't claim any such miracle as did our S-man. He was suggesting that s's be used in whitewater for god sake and that anyone who did not use s's was a baby killer (John Winters and me led that parade in his estimate). His strap-on sponsons could take time to set up, more time than he claimed. I found it hard back then to argue with someone who lacked a sense of proportions. If you can't see the difference between what S-man said and what I say then the argument is closed. Good day to you. ralph.......................................................................................................... Okay, I'm back. I just got pissed off for a second :-). In the spirit of Easter and resurrection and a willingness to forgive trespasses and dealing with a Doubting Thomas who won't believe unless he can put his fingers in the wounds... I am not sure that what I have to offer is experiment enough (you ask for experiments at a later point in your note) and I doubt that anything I have to offer could sway someone who is self-confessed snobbish and stuffy opiniated (see your quoted stuff above :-)). What I have is a comparison of similar width folding kayaks (i.e. soft-sided skin over frame) that are sponsonless (by design) vs those with sponsons. This shows that the latter have a stronger secondary stability that kicks in at some point that the former do not. I am thinking of the Pouch and Nautiraid doubles as an example. Moreover, there is a difference among the folders between external and internal sponsons in kayaks of the same width such as the Klepper double and Nautiraid double. The sponsons on the latter are external and resemble more the pure balloon than do the internal ones of the Klepper. Also within the sponsoned folding kayak family the same model with larger vs. smaller sponsons is a lot less tippy at the secondary stability point. The case in point is the Klepper Aerius 2000 which started its life in a tippy small sponsoned format, which scared many paddlers, to one with larger sponsons. There was an ever so slight gain in width (under an inch) but the effect was dramatic...well and over and beyond just the slight increase in width. The compressed air seems to be a factor in here somewhere too. I don't roll but people who do and do so in folding kayaks have commented on how in the roll at some point, as they are coming up, the still submerged sponson suddenly pushes the boat up when pass the midpoint. Back to a hardshell sans sponsons and a folding kayak with sponsons. The Perception Jocasee is 32.5 inches wide, the Nautiraid Raid 2 Touring (the smallest double) is 32 inches wide with sponsons. I would wager that the Jocassee would tip over sooner than the Nautiraid if its two paddlers leaned out to one side. the Jocassee would seem to have an advantage with the slight width gain plus it is a longer boat. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: snip... >by purists in skinny British kayaks; these >heavy as lead Brit kayaks are laughed at by those making their own >lighter wood kit/plans kayaks or skin kayaks. jeez, I feel like an adopted kid who finds out he was born of royalty! I went the stripper route due to poverty. Hey...now *I* have someone to laugh at...excellent!! :} jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
And I thought the folding kayak was a skin boat with training wheels... rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I find it interesting how some of us tend to define an activity in an > exclusionary way, i.e. our version is the only true version. So we > won't allow something to be called a kayak unless it fits our own > definition that is created by what we paddle and something else is a > "boat" with a bit of perjorative to it. Kayaking has a curious peeking > order: The Keowee and sit-on-tops are on the lowest rung; folding > kayaks (or just "boats" in some views) occupy just a slightly higher > order; plastic kayaks (really polyethylene) are looked down on by > fiberglass kayakers; larger cockpit, beamier fiberglass kayaks are > dismissed as "northwest" by purists in skinny British kayaks; these > heavy as lead Brit kayaks are laughed at by those making their own > lighter wood kit/plans kayaks or skin kayaks. > -- gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com furniture, designed and constructed http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I've found my K-Light to be very stable. But.... after bragging to my husband about how difficult it is to turn, and convincing him to give it a try, he settled into the cockpit in a pool trial and tipped right over! So much for that...... Karen H> <<Unless you have tried to tip over a folding kayak to experience the > phenomenon it is hard to believe that it works but it does, to a degree, i.e. > it ain't really fully like trying to submerge a balloon but rather in that > direction. I don't want to exaggerate the claim. >> > > Well, Ralph, I've tested the secondary stability of most all the Feathercraft > (if that counts). And yes, when they are sponson equipped, they have *big* > secondary stability, at times even an annoying amount (that "training wheel" > feeling) when taking steep wakes or surf from the side. But, -- Karen Hancock San Clemente, CA magpi_at_access1.net 949/487-2602 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Karen H. wrote: > > I've found my K-Light to be very stable. But.... after bragging to my > husband about how difficult it is to turn, and convincing him to give it > a try, he settled into the cockpit in a pool trial and tipped right > over! So much for that...... > Karen I don't see anything strange in that at all. That K-Light is like Zorro's grand stallion. It will buck for any interloper. Take the K-Light off to the side and talk to it quietly. Say that it is okay to let the hubby paddle. A hardshell knows no difference; it is without feelings in its rigidity. In contrast a folding kayak has a soul and substance in its mammal like skin over frame makeup. A folding kayak is also quite loyal; I think it has to do with the sponsons, although I know I won't be able to prove it to Harold. :-) ralph ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > That K-Light is like > Zorro's grand stallion. It will buck for any interloper. Take the > K-Light off to the side and talk to it quietly. Say that it is okay to > let the hubby paddle. Raph Diaz, the kayak whisperer. Perhaps you could have a word with my slalom canoe. ;) Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:58 PDT