Fred writes: >Two decided to make for shore about 100 yards away. They both >died. Reason: Hypothermia??? Drowning. Real reason: Neither had >on a PFD, were not dressed for the water temperature and the others >stayed with the boat. This is confusing. Not being dressed for the water still implies hypothermia. That others stayed with the boat is irrelevant to the cause of drowning (although, of course, the others might have saved them after the cause occurred). And, if the cause was hypothermia and others stayed with the boat, PFDs might actually have contributed to the drownings. PFDs are paradigmatic for paddlers. The simple assumption is that, if you're wearing a PFD, your life is not in danger. That is a vast oversimplification. The PFD paradigm needs careful assessment. When are PFDs advantageous and when are they not? I recall reading the fantastic story of a man who fell off a commercial ship in Lake Superior and swam four miles to shore. The reporter was incredulous because the man was not wearing a PFD. In fact, had this man been wearing a PFD, he most likely would have succumbed to hypothermia long before reaching shore, since the PFD would have impeded his swimming and kept him in the water longer. In a personal experience, I once capsized my canoe in a river and had my PFD snag in a strainer. Driven into the strainer by the current, I escaped only when a rib snapped, allowing me to roll off a pointed branch and reach the surface for air. Had the PFD snagged two or three inches lower, It would have held me underwater and and caused me to drown. When the human body floats, only the face remains above water. A PFD adds perhaps two inches of "freeboard" to the body. The question is one of trade-offs -- are the extra couple inches worth risking other problems? For sea kayakers, who are liklely to capsize in open water off shore and stay with their boats, the answer is clearly yes. But if a good swimmer decides to swim for shore, jettisoning the PFD might be a consideration. And, if paddling a small river with deadfalls, the best place for a good swimmer's PFD might be on the deck. Finally, another consideration is the PFD itself. Many current CG "approved" PFDs fail to turn swimmers onto their backs, and many float up around the neck, where they make swimming all but impossible and actually impede kayak reentry. The assumption that a PFD will always save one's life is almost as dangerous as not wearing one. I would enjoy a discussion by experienced paddlers of the REAL pluses (and minuses) of PFDs. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Richard Kemmer wrote: > PFDs are paradigmatic for paddlers. The simple assumption is that, if you're > wearing a PFD, your life is not in danger. That is a vast oversimplification. Indeed it is. Does anyone believe it? Thus the motivation for the cumbersome "Personal Flotation Device" monicker. It won't save your life; it's not a "Life Jacket." > In a personal experience, I once capsized my canoe in a river and had my PFD > snag in a strainer. Driven into the strainer by the current, I escaped only > when a rib snapped, allowing me to roll off a pointed branch and reach the > surface for air. Had the PFD snagged two or three inches lower, It would have > held me underwater and and caused me to drown. Scary. Of course, had you not been in a PFD, you might have been lower in the water, and fully enmeshed in the strainer. > When the human body floats, only the face remains above water. A PFD adds > perhaps two inches of "freeboard" to the body. Yours, perhaps. I float vertically with my entire head out of the water. Or were you talking about an unconscious floater? > The question is one of > trade-offs -- are the extra couple inches worth risking other problems? For > sea kayakers, who are liklely to capsize in open water off shore and stay with > their boats, the answer is clearly yes. But if a good swimmer decides to swim > for shore, jettisoning the PFD might be a consideration. And, if paddling a > small river with deadfalls, the best place for a good swimmer's PFD might be > on the deck. Our club paddles lots of small white water rivers with deadfalls. NO ONE paddles with PFD on the deck. > > Finally, another consideration is the PFD itself. Many current CG "approved" > PFDs fail to turn swimmers onto their backs, and many float up around the > neck, where they make swimming all but impossible and actually impede kayak > reentry. True, USCG Type III vests are only required to float you, not turn your face to the air. But they don't float up around the neck if they fit right. You seem to have two issues combined here: turning swimmers on their back (implies unconscious) and impeding swimming (implies conscious, active effort). What's good for one may not be good for the other. > The assumption that a PFD will always save one's life is almost as dangerous > as not wearing one. I really don't think that is true. Read the CG fatality reports, especially recreational boaters on inland waterways. Most fatalities, except in serious white water, were not wearing PFDs. Not for any of the rational reasons you've cited, just ignorance and belief that they didn't need it. "Hell, I can swim." Famous last words. > I would enjoy a discussion by experienced paddlers of the > REAL pluses (and minuses) of PFDs. I am not aware of any fatalities caused by PFD wearing. Anyone else? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We have been through this all before. I have always taken the position that PFD's are not necessarily necessary, and have had to endure the back channel threats to my life as a result. You will find that, on this subject particularly, most people on this list are quite narrow minded and not even willing to consider that there can be some exceptions to the rule. Oh well. I'm up for the fight. << I really don't think that is true. Read the CG fatality reports, especially recreational boaters on inland waterways. Most fatalities, except in serious white water, were not wearing PFDs. Not for any of the rational reasons you've cited, just ignorance and belief that they didn't need it. "Hell, I can swim." Famous last words." Statistics can be so much fun! For instance, IF most boaters are not wearing PFD's, then it would be logical to assume that most boating fatalities would not be wearing PFD's either. It does not necessarily imply that had they been wearing a PFD they would not have become a fatality! OK, so you qualified this statement by saying "except for whitewater." So I can assume that most whitewater fatalities are wearing PFD's? Can I therefore assume that I have a greater chance of survival in whitewater by not wearing a PFD then I would if I were wearing one? I mean, just look at the statistics! <> I do not believe it is really possible in most scenarios to state unequivocally that this person would have survived had they been wearing a PFD, or that person would not have survived had they not been wearing one. We will no doubt get any number of anecdotal stories from people who claim that they are alive today as a result of wearing their PFD. The fact is that one has no way of actually knowing whether or not they might have survived just the same had they not been wearing their PFD. Please understand I am not trying to make a case against PFD's here. I do believe that most people should be wearing a PFD most of the time while participating in this sport. My position has always been simply that there are some legitimate exceptions to the rule. Duck and cover! Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> We have been through this all before. I have > always taken the position > that PFD's are not necessarily necessary, and > have had to endure the back > channel threats to my life as a result. ------------------------------ > Statistics can be so much fun! For instance, > IF most boaters are not > wearing PFD's, then it would be logical to assume > that most boating > fatalities would not be wearing PFD's either. It > does not necessarily imply > that had they been wearing a PFD they would not > have become a fatality! This sounds like the same argument for and against seat belts in cars Donald *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I nearly always paddle flatwater without a PFD on but have it strapped on the back deck. This is only lakes and rivers. I always wear it at sea not matter what the conditions. In Australia our lakes are ponds compared to Canada so I would consider something like Lake Superior the sea. PFD in the surf. I do a lot of surfing in my kayak and even though its a nuisance if I bomb my roll after a bad dumping and have to swim through the surf, I prefer to keep it on just in case I get on the wrong side of the kayak (between the shore and it) and am rammed. David > -----Original Message----- > From: B00jum! [SMTP:snark_at_tulgey.org] > Sent: Monday, 21 August 2000 16:34 > To: Paddlewise > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] How Would You: Change to. . . .PFD > > > I think this just leaves flatwater. How many people paddle flatwater > w/o a pfd or with a pfd 'on deck'? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark > if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:43:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net> writes: .. This year, I started wearing an inflatable PFD under conditions when all of the above don't quite apply. The inflatable fits me better, has more flotation and is cooler and less restrictive than the regular PFD, and I may just continue using it on lakes when I don't nned the insulation of the regular PFD. -- Wes Wes, Which kind of inflatible do you use? Is it only ripcord activiated or is there an automatic inflation feature also? Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com http://www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:24 PM 8/21/00 EDT, FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: >Which kind of inflatible do you use? Is it only ripcord activiated or is there an automatic inflation feature also? The West Marine logoed SOSspender, of the Type III persuasion, mouth or ripcord activated. There is a Type I inflatable available, at considerably more price, with safety harness involved -- but doesn't seem very applicable for my purposes. It's not the ideal thing for all conditions, but is useful in conditions where I find a regular PFD excessively hot and constrictive. Your mileage may vary -- but remember that it's you doing the risk assessment for yourself. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 19 Aug 2000 KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > We have been through this all before. I have always taken the position > that PFD's are not necessarily necessary, and have had to endure the back > channel threats to my life as a result. You will find that, on this subject > particularly, most people on this list are quite narrow minded and not even > willing to consider that there can be some exceptions to the rule. Oh well. > I'm up for the fight. I don't intend to fight about it. I wear mine all the time. In 11 years of boating a very wide range of water, I've never felt I would be safer with it off. YMMV. You can -- and will -- do whatever you want. I'll concede there may be some exceptions. What are they? I don't mean anecdotes like the original poster. I mean situations where if you saw your child paddling with a PFD on you'd tell him or her to take it off. > > << I really don't think that is true. Read the CG fatality reports, > especially recreational boaters on inland waterways. Most fatalities, > except in serious white water, were not wearing PFDs. Not for any of the > rational reasons you've cited, just ignorance and belief that they didn't > need it. "Hell, I can swim." Famous last words." > > Statistics can be so much fun! For instance, IF most boaters are not > wearing PFD's, then it would be logical to assume that most boating > fatalities would not be wearing PFD's either. It does not necessarily imply > that had they been wearing a PFD they would not have become a fatality! OK, > so you qualified this statement by saying "except for whitewater." So I can > assume that most whitewater fatalities are wearing PFD's? Can I therefore > assume that I have a greater chance of survival in whitewater by not wearing > a PFD then I would if I were wearing one? I mean, just look at the statistics! > I'm glad you're having fun. I'm not going to debate this bit, however. > > I do not believe it is really possible in most scenarios to state > unequivocally that this person would have survived had they been wearing a > PFD, or that person would not have survived had they not been wearing one. You may have a point. Feel free to tell me under what circumstances a sea kayaker out of his boat is safer without a PFD than with one. I am having trouble coming up with any I think are reasonable. > Please understand I am not trying to make a case against PFD's here. I do > believe that most people should be wearing a PFD most of the time while > participating in this sport. My position has always been simply that there > are some legitimate exceptions to the rule. > As I said, I'm willing to be educated as to what these may be. For my simple mind, it's easier to just wear it all the time. One less decision to make. > Duck and cover! But keep your nose above water. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/19/00 10:53:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cramer_at_coe.uga.edu writes: < You may have a point. Feel free to tell me under what circumstances a sea kayaker out of his boat is safer without a PFD than with one. I am having trouble coming up with any I think are reasonable. > Once again, we've already been through this all before some time ago and I know there is nothing I can say or do to try and convince those of you who have already closed your minds on this issue. But for the rest of you thinking folks who might not have been around in the previous discussions I will give you a couple of typical scenarios where I chose not to wear my pfd. I grew up body surfing the waves of Southern California. I am quite skilled and comfortable swimming in large waves. I am now an avid kayak surfer. Now please understand that I never come out of my boat. But in the event that I did end up swimming in large surf I would feel MUCH safer without a pfd on. The pfd would impede my ability to dive under said waves leaving me at the mercy of the nastiness on top. Please understand that this applies to me. Certainly someone who does not have any experience swimming in surf should probably be wearing a pfd. I also enjoy spearfishing from my kayak. I will use my boat to transport me to where I want to be, and then jump out and look for fish. When I'm done I'll climb back into the boat and paddle to another reef. Certainly I'm not going to be wearing my pfd while I spearfish. And if I'm dressed for the water and already jumping in and out of the boat in order to swim around, what possible benefit do I hope to realize from replacing my pfd each time I climb back into the boat? I don't think I'm any safer in this situation with a pfd on then I am without it. As far as my kids are concerned they are required to always wear a pfd in the kayak. And I always wear a pfd when I'm kayaking with my kids. My point is, and always has been, that there are SOME legitimate reasons for SOME individuals to pass on wearing a pfd while in a kayak. It's an individual decision that I have given a great deal of thought to and I should not be condemned or ridiculed for my choices simply because you choose to live in a black and white world. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
KiAyker_at_aol.com [Scott] wrote: > > [snip] I > will give you a couple of typical scenarios where I chose not to wear my pfd. > I grew up body surfing the waves of Southern California. I am quite > skilled and comfortable swimming in large waves. I am now an avid kayak > surfer. Now please understand that I never come out of my boat. But in the > event that I did end up swimming in large surf I would feel MUCH safer > without a pfd on. The pfd would impede my ability to dive under said waves > leaving me at the mercy of the nastiness on top. Please understand that this > applies to me. Certainly someone who does not have any experience swimming in > surf should probably be wearing a pfd. Sigh. We have indeed been through this before. Scott and I both feel that an **experienced** body surfer/surf swimmer is impeded by a PFD, and for the reason he states succinctly above. (For the record, my times as a body surfer date back to the '50's and ended in the late '60's, while Scott is still doin' it!) I suspect that unless a person has considerable experience in surf, our conclusion seems nutsoid. I suggest that before anybody rails against Scott's assertion that a PFD in surf is a liability for an experienced surfer, they *do* a few tens of hours of swimming in 6-8 foot surf (even 4-foot surf can thrash you, but 6-8 foot stuff "teaches" you what to do faster <g>). It might be useful for us to find out what the bulk of kayak surfers wear: PFD or no PFD. How many folks on this list surf 4-8 foot waves in their kayaks? I bet not too many. Note: 1. I am *not* claiming that a PFD should be avoided in WW. I have no experience as a WW kayaker or WW swimmer. 2. In all of the sea kayaking I do, I *always* wear the PFD. I do not kayak in surf. Too old and treacherous. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just to add some fuel to the burgeoning flames.. There is an article by Eric Soares (Tsunami Rangers) on this exact subject: http://www.watertribe.com/Magazine/July2000/July00Soares.asp In it he outlines several situations where a pfd may be a hindrance. The main argument seems to be that pfds impede your ability and speed of swimming. The first rule from the article is: this is only an option if you are a *good* swimmer. While I still wear my pfd for surf kayaking, I'm beginning to question the value of it. As it stands, my roll is good enough that its not really an issue. OTOH, if I were to wet exit (hey, it could happen 8) the level of bouyancy it provides could be an impediment to swimming my (WW) kayak back to shore. This is either an argument for no pfd or for a lower bouyancy pfd, I'm not sure which. I've also wondered about wearing a pfd in very calm flatwater, especially when the shore is so close. OB disclaimer: Obviously the general rule is 'when in doubt, wear it'. For the record, I've been *very* grateful for my pfd when wet exiting in rapids. I learned first hand that a pfd makes for a good cushion when slam dancing with rocks. To skip around this topic a bit - I'm also thinking about the canoe team that capsized and the two who swam to shore drowned, while the ones who stayed with the boat survived. I'm forgetting now, did the two who swam don pfd's? In any case, my suspicion is that in cold water, swimming itself can assist the process of hypothermia as you shed your radiated heat into the passing water. Given this its a real close judement call of whether you can make it to shore in time before hypothermia gets critical (and thus the question of keeping the pfd becomes relevant). If your close enough, but the pfd would slow you down (and lets assume that you are sans boat as well) then loosing the pfd may be your best option. Anecdotally, I've also heard of another situation for loosing (as opposed to not wearing) your pfd. In river running there are some holes that are 'keepers'. If you've wet exited in the hole and the hole keeps recirculating you no matter what you do, one option is to lose the pfd and swim *under* the recirculating water. [By the Bye: I see that this topic has been debated before, but speaking for those of us who joined up in the last year, we'd love to hear the summary &/or new information. Then again, I may be speaking for just myself 8] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am an experienced ww river kayaker and sea kayaker. Anyone who does not wear a PFD in river ww is damned stupid. BOOjum says: >> If you've wet exited in the hole and the >> hole keeps recirculating you no matter what you do, >> one option is to lose the pfd and swim *under* the >> recirculating water. Yes, there are documented cases where a person out of his boat is caught in a "keeper" hole in a river, and the PFD helps keep him there, preventing him from sinking low enough so he can swim out from the bottom of the recirculating pattern. I know of one such case personally. The paddler was a highly experienced ww paddler and slalom racer. He was recirculated (sucked down into the hole, then pushed back up to the surface a few feet downstream, then sucked upsteam and down again into the water, etc.) two or three times. On the last time, being extremely cool-headed, he dumped his PFD and actually HELPED the current suck him down by doing a "reverse" breast stroke. (Imagine you're being sucked down vertically, feet first. You sweep your hands from near your hips upward toward your head.) He popped up again about 10 feet downstream from the hole and was not recirculated again. His paddling companions then were able to rescue him. But this is an extremely rare kind of occurrence. And this paddling group violated one of the prime safety rules: When you are paddling near keepers, at least one person should be standing on the bank with a throw rope. If a person is caught in the keeper, use the throw rope! In this particular case no one was manning a throw rope. Every responsible ww club or group I have ever paddled with requires that you wear a PFD. No exceptions. Jack Fu 47-37-39 N, 122-07-57 W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu writes: > I am an experienced ww river kayaker and sea kayaker. > > Anyone who does not wear a PFD in river ww is damned stupid. > > <snip> Just to clarify - I wasn't contemplating *not* wearing a pfd in river ww. The anecdote was to illustrate one possible case where it _might_ be useful to loose the pfd, but certainly not a case of going sans pfd. I've also thought over the surf issue and decided, that while in my kayak I'd much prefer to have it on. I've seen enough kayak/kayak and kayak/surfboard collisions to be assured that the extra padding will come in handy 8) I think the pfd/swimmer issue doesn't take into account possible injury (esp in surf &/or rock gardens). If I've been thrashed around and am feeling out of sorts, for whatever value of 'out of', I'd *really* like to have the pfd on to assist in my flotation. So far, in all the questionable pfd cases (needing to swim, etc) it doesn't strike me that there is a compelling reason *not* to wear your pfd in the first place. If you later get into a situation where loosing the pfd may help, then you can burn that flotation when you get to it 8) I think this just leaves flatwater. How many people paddle flatwater w/o a pfd or with a pfd 'on deck'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:33 AM 8/21/00 -0400, B00jum! wrote: >I think this just leaves flatwater. How many people paddle flatwater >w/o a pfd or with a pfd 'on deck'? On warm, calm water, on a warm day, on a familiar and small inland lake, I have been known to put the PFD under the bungees. This year, I started wearing an inflatable PFD under conditions when all of the above don't quite apply. The inflatable fits me better, has more flotation and is cooler and less restrictive than the regular PFD, and I may just continue using it on lakes when I don't nned the insulation of the regular PFD. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> I've seen enough kayak/kayak and kayak/surfboard collisions to be assured that the extra padding will come in handy 8) Good point! A few years ago I was kayaking surfing with a friend. We are both competent surfers but not experts by any means. We were coming in on the same wave, close to each other. My friend did someting wrong and his kayak (a Crossfire) shot toward me, hitting me directly over my heart. I was extremely lucky. My PFD was the kind made of vertical minicel (or some dense foam material like it) tubes. The bow hit directly on a tube, rather than between two tubes. I felt a stab of pain like I'd never felt before in my life. It was excruciating. All I could see was a pitch-black universe with several brilliant yellow flashes going off. Fortunately I had enough presence of mind to pop my skirt. I then passed out as I fell out of my boat. Then I came too as the waves rolled me ashore, because I remember trying to stagger up the beach. Then I passed out again. Then I was in a tropical paradise of beaches, brilliantly colored flowers, waving palms, and a blue sea. I was lying on the beach looking at the sky with the shadows of the waving palm fronds constantly passing over my face. Then I realized that they were not palm fronds; they were human heads looking down at me in concern. I had been hauled up the beach and laid on my back, and my friend and some bystanders and a lifeguard were looking at me to see if I was okay. I was, except for a fractured rib. I think my PFD helped me (the unconscious me) to float and be rolled up to the beach. Also, it softened the impact of the kayak bow on my rib cage. Jack Fu 47-37-39 N 122-07-57 W PS: The little dream I had about the tropical paradise seemed to last a long time, but I was told after I came to that I was out only for a few seconds! And where did the scenery of the dream come from? From the murals in one of those tourist-trap Chinese-Hawaiian restaurents I had been to recently. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of B00jum! Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 11:34 PM To: Paddlewise Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] How Would You: Change to. . . .PFD Jack Fu writes: > I am an experienced ww river kayaker and sea kayaker. > > Anyone who does not wear a PFD in river ww is damned stupid. > > <snip> Just to clarify - I wasn't contemplating *not* wearing a pfd in river ww. The anecdote was to illustrate one possible case where it _might_ be useful to loose the pfd, but certainly not a case of going sans pfd. I've also thought over the surf issue and decided, that while in my kayak I'd much prefer to have it on. I've seen enough kayak/kayak and kayak/surfboard collisions to be assured that the extra padding will come in handy 8) I think the pfd/swimmer issue doesn't take into account possible injury (esp in surf &/or rock gardens). If I've been thrashed around and am feeling out of sorts, for whatever value of 'out of', I'd *really* like to have the pfd on to assist in my flotation. So far, in all the questionable pfd cases (needing to swim, etc) it doesn't strike me that there is a compelling reason *not* to wear your pfd in the first place. If you later get into a situation where loosing the pfd may help, then you can burn that flotation when you get to it 8) I think this just leaves flatwater. How many people paddle flatwater w/o a pfd or with a pfd 'on deck'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu 47-37-39 N 122-07-57 W I wrote: >> Then I came too as the waves rolled me ashore Oops! I meant to write "Then I came to..." (meaning, regained consciousness). :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Dave Kruger wrote: > Sigh. We have indeed been through this before. Scott and I both feel that an > **experienced** body surfer/surf swimmer is impeded by a PFD, and for the > reason he states .... > > I suggest that before anybody rails against Scott's assertion that a PFD in > surf is a liability for an experienced surfer, they *do* a few tens of hours of > swimming in 6-8 foot surf Dave, why the sigh? I haven't seen any "railing." Lighten up a little. I'm not a body surfer/swimmer, so I accept your opinion as to how to do it. My question was for paddlers, not swimmers. > > It might be useful for us to find out what the bulk of kayak surfers wear: > PFD or no PFD. Indeed, that is the question. Surfers, how about it? A little more broadly, if you are, perhaps of necessity, attempting a surf landing with someone who may flip and swim, do you tell him to take off his PFD? > > Note: 1. I am *not* claiming that a PFD should be avoided in WW. I have no > experience as a WW kayaker or WW swimmer. Swimming in WW is hard enough for me with a PFD. I wouldn't want to try it without one. > 2. In all of the sea kayaking I do, I *always* wear the PFD. Me, too. > I do not kayak in surf. Too old and treacherous. The surf is or you are? ;) Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Dave Kruger wrote: > Dave, why the sigh? I haven't seen any "railing." Lighten up a little. Yeah, you got me on that one. I should lighten up. > I'm not a body surfer/swimmer, so I accept your opinion as to how to do > it. My question was for paddlers, not swimmers. > > > > It might be useful for us to find out what the bulk of kayak surfers wear: > > PFD or no PFD. > Indeed, that is the question. Surfers, how about it? A little more > broadly, if you are, perhaps of necessity, attempting a surf landing with > someone who may flip and swim, do you tell him to take off his PFD? No. That person should make the decision based on their experience in surf of that size. An inexperienced person should *not* be out in big surf (over 6 feet). However, if stuck in big stuff, the PFD is probably a net benefit to a totally inexperienced person -- they will eventually wash ashore, and the flotation will help the waves to move them to shore. If nothing else, it makes recovery of the body easier <grin>. > > I do not kayak in surf. Too old and treacherous. > The surf is or you are? ;) Surf more than me! <g> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In interest me (probably only me), but: Bullet Proof Vest: Stops Slugs Survival Vest: Helped me find slugs to eat. Fly Fishing Vest: Holds slugs to throw Life Vest: Helps a slug like me tread water longer (I am a survival swimmer. Comfortable, not overly confident and Cautious.) AND: At 09:55 AM 8/20/2000 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >Yeah, you got me on that one. I should lighten up. I don't see how a vest would benefit a surfer - body or board and would in fact be a hindrance. I surf my sea kayak on occasion down and always wear a vest. It helps me keep my head above water so I can see the next wave as it breaks and pounds me back to shore. I also have one of the Type III CO2 inflatable vests that was given to me. It really keeps your head above water face up, unlike my Extrasport PFD which floats me maybe even face down, and the inflatable won't hinder your swimming or other movement. It is a good compromise if I am not un-conscience. Let your conscious be your guide. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|In interest me (probably only me), but: |Bullet Proof Vest: Stops Slugs |Survival Vest: Helped me find slugs to eat. |Fly Fishing Vest: Holds slugs to throw |Life Vest: Helps a slug like me tread water longer (I am a survival |swimmer. Comfortable, not overly confident and Cautious.) Fred, Do you wear this all these vests at the same time? Now that is dedictation to the Safety Ethic! 8-) Be careful though, Bullet Proof Vests are not Bullet Proof.... 8-) Later... Dan aka Smart A.. late on a Sunday night. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: B00jum! <snark_at_tulgey.org> > [By the Bye: I see that this topic has been debated before, but > speaking for those of us who joined up in the last year, we'd love to > hear the summary &/or new information. Then again, I may be speaking > for just myself 8] Nope, you're not alone. I think each time we revisit a topic, especially after a period where we have a lot of new subscribers (and now is a good example), something new always seems to pop up. Sometimes someone has an experience we haven't heard or posts one of those posts that makes one go "hmmmmmm..." (in an enlightening sort of way :-) I think this is one of those topics that can tolerate being revisited once in a while. Well... for some of us, anyhow :-) Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > Steve Cramer wrote: > > Indeed, that is the question. Surfers, how about it? A little more > > broadly, if you are, perhaps of necessity, attempting a surf landing with > > someone who may flip and swim, do you tell him to take off his PFD? > > No. That person should make the decision based on their experience in surf of > that size. An inexperienced person should *not* be out in big surf (over 6 > feet). However, if stuck in big stuff, the PFD is probably a net benefit to a > totally inexperienced person And probably to a really tired kayaker. Many surf kayakers don't go into the surf without a helmet, either. And they are experienced kayak surfers. Cheers, Jackie (who has never gone surf kayaking without her pfd on and has played in 5-6 foot stuff (but mostly 4 and under) and got really really tired and had major fun :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd wrote: > > At 02:33 AM 8/21/00 -0400, B00jum! wrote: > > >I think this just leaves flatwater. How many people paddle flatwater > >w/o a pfd or with a pfd 'on deck'? > > On warm, calm water, on a warm day, on a familiar and small inland lake, I > have been known to put the PFD under the bungees. As mentioned by some, this when to PFD and not to PFD question has been raised before. I hesitated to join in the postings, but since a few postings carry the no-PFD flag, I thought I should weigh in with a strong pro-PFD stance. Comfort? There is hardly any excuse for not wearing one. If a PFD is uncomfortable find one that is comfortable. More and more models have more and more points of adjustment and better designs for comfort while paddling. Hot weather? I have paddled in 90 percent humidity and 97 degree air temperature with no wind and relentless sun beating down. Whenever those conditions got unbearable, I took off my PFD...wait a second, not the way you think: I dipped it into the water to get it soaking wet and put it on again immediately. It is surprising how cooling a wet PFD that is soaking your T-shirt can be. Also I dip my hat constantly in the water for the same cooling effect. If you know how to roll, roll for rotary cooling. If others are around, do a reverse Eskimo bow rescue using their bow...tip yourself over until your entire upper body and head are soaked and then hip snap and pull yourself back up. Surf? I guess there may be a good argument for not using a PFD when playing in surf. I don't play in surf. If I am coming through surf, I am coming in once with plans to come out later, once. A PFD offers more protection and options than not wearing one. Don't the Tsunami Rangers who famously play in surf wear PFDs as a rule? Flatwater that is absolutely calm? You never know when conditions may change. The sea, and even a lake, can be fickle that way. If the PFD is comfortable (which it certainly can be) and, if you can cool off if it hot while wearing a PFD (methods outlined above), then why not wear it at all times. Anecdotal info? I know a mention of anecdotal info was referred to as likely to come in the pro-PFD position. I have one involving me. I have given it several times on this listserver and bored with re-stating it. All I can do is assure you that I am unequivocally positive I would not be here to be in a position to bore you if I had not been wearing a PFD on a calm day on water that was calm. 'Nuff said. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my more morbid moments, I view a PFD as something to make it easier for the coast guard or SAR to find and retrieve your body after you drown or die of hypothermia. But this is up in the Pacific Northwest where the water is cold enough to be the main killer. Never mind any arguements about whether it restricts you ability to swim. If help is close by, you can huddle and conserve heat while a rescue attempt is being made. Trying to swim or thrashing about you just lose heat that much faster. If help is not close, lets hope you can get back into your kayak fast, and get someplace to warm up. If you are wearing something to keep you warm in the water, it might provide approx as much flotation as a PFD. Though not as likely to help keep your head out of the water. Still most of those wont work indefinately, they just slow the heat loss. dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Fred writes: > >Two decided to make for shore about 100 yards away. They both >died. > Reason: Hypothermia??? Drowning. Real reason: Neither had >on a PFD, were > not dressed for the water temperature and the others >stayed with the boat. There was a very good discussion about rip currents and pfd's on PaddleWise some time ago. Might offer some possibilities to what happened. Of course, the debate on whether "to wear or not to wear" will always be there. I am convinced :-) See http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/technique/rips-fpd.html Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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