Hi All, Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? I believe they have been on the US market for some time now. Comment from other Klepper owners would be particularly welcome, as that is my application. Re-entry and roll effectiveness is therefore not a factor, but how do the skirts and zippers stand up in surf and big water, given the size of the cockpit? Peter Rattenbury, Wollongong, Australia. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PJ Rattenbury wrote: > > Hi All, Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? I > believe they have been on the US market for some time now. Comment from > other Klepper owners would be particularly welcome, as that is my > application. Re-entry and roll effectiveness is therefore not a factor, > but how do the skirts and zippers stand up in surf and big water, I don't know this particular skirt but Kleppers have had zippered sprayskirts. I don't know if they still do. These were special-order military ones that cost a bundle because they employed a waterproof zipper. I never saw a particular advantage in them since it is so easy to pop a skirt and get at what you need. The downside for the zippered sprayskirt, in addition to cost, are/were: added weight (if you are carrying a folding kayak every ounce adds to your burden); susceptible to getting sand in the zippered teeth; maintenance of the zipper. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
PJ Rattenbury wrote: .. Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? ... ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> writes: I don't know this particular skirt but Kleppers have had zippered sprayskirts. I don't know if they still do. These were special-order military ones that cost a bundle because they employed a waterproof zipper. I never saw a particular advantage in them since it is so easy to pop a skirt and get at what you need. The downside for the zippered sprayskirt, in addition to cost, are/were: added weight (if you are carrying a folding kayak every ounce adds to your burden); susceptible to getting sand in the zippered teeth; maintenance of the zipper. Ralph Hoehn writes: Pouch currently has a zippered version spraydeck for the double cockpit (non-military, the Swedish commandos prefer the heavy duty three piece version: spray deck plus two spray skirts). Individual zippers run from the center of the front top edge of each funnel to about the knees of the paddler. The zippers are no more difficult to maintain in this application than when they are used in dry suits. The weight is close to the traditional side opening funnel version of the Pouch spray deck. I have not had this particular spray deck out in dumping surf, but since even the ratty old button version used to stand up quite well (after a few modifications), I would not have second thoughts about the strength of the zippers in this respect. The upside to a center zippered spray deck / skirt is the ease of boarding and alighting from the boat. It also allows semi-permanent installation of the deck for improved surf security. Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is minimal. I agree with Ralph that for some people the advantages of the center zippers are not necessarily worth the added cost of the expensive zippers. My personal preference would be for a spray deck with integral coamings that accept a good spray skirt, but that's from the point of view of use on salt water. For extended river trips the zipper version certainly has a place. As to adding unnecessary weight: I don't like lugging boats, whether they be folded up or assembled, in any case. Why not just use a folding boat cart? Admittedly there are few with large enough wheels to make them fit for off-road trips, but they are not difficult to make yourself ... long winter nights are approaching fast :-). Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11/14/2000 12:48 PM -0500, FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: >Since you wear the "funnel" over the >PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is >minimal. I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your PFD or over it? Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Hoehn wrote: >Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is minimal. "Fred T, CA Kayaker" <cakayak_at_mindspring.com> writes: I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your PFD or over it? Fred, lest I have opened myself up to misunderstandings: The set-up, to which I was referring, applied only to double folding boats with a long open cockpit. A special deck / cover can be stretched over this cockpit. These covers come in two basic varieties. 1 - A deck with integral funnels (sometimes merely with drawstrings around the top; sometimes side-opening, closed with snap buttons; sometimes equipped with front (or side) zippers). 2 - A deck with integral hoops / coaming rings, to which you can attach "normal" spray skirts. In both cases the deck is more or less permanentely attached to the cockpit coaming of the boat, which necessitates some kind of opening arrangement for the funnels (or separate spray skirts) to allow the paddler to get in and out. Depending on the permanence of the deck to cockpit coaming, loading and unloading of gear may also need to be made through these funnels. You would not want to wear integral funnels under your PFD in case you need to wet exit (yes, it happens "even" with double folding kayaks). The likelihood of remaining attached when you would no longer want to be is too great. Remember that your PFD need to be relatively tight to be fully effective. Of course, if you use a set-up with detachable individual spray skirts you're back to your normal wisdom and wear it under your PFD, preferably cinched tight or rolled into your dry top/suit to provide a near perfect seal. I have in the past been in situations where I wore my funnel over the PFD, but wore a rain jacket over that. While the latter might have impaired my mobility, had I been forced into the water, I believe that I would have been able to get out of the boat with no problems at least. Also, having some air between my body and the rain jacket made for a comparatively comfortable paddling climate :-). I hope that I made this point clearer now. By the way, the original side opening Pouch spray deck version allowed the paddlers to unbutton completely the left side on both funnels. That in turn allowed one to roll up the amidships section of the deck and be left with an open cockpit once again bar the short pieces forward of the bow position and aft od the stern paddler. In case of rain or cold (as evening approached) or of excessive sun, the deck could be closed up again in a snap so to speak. Weh Pouch dropped this version in favor of something more substantial than the buttons, old time fans almost stormed the barricades in protest :-). There is a serious after sales market offering various deck and skirt arrangements for Pouch and Klepper doubles in Germany. Best regards, Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:07 PM 11/14/00 -0800, Fred T, CA Kayaker wrote: >At 11/14/2000 12:48 PM -0500, FoldingBoats_at_aol.com wrote: >>Since you wear the "funnel" over the >>PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is >>minimal. > >I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What >is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your >PFD or over it? Under it. I wouldn't even consider doing it any other way. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred wrote: >>I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your PFD or over it? Fred<< Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs (usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing. I always wear first my insulating layer(s), then the sprayskirt/tunnel, then drytop or paddling jacket, then PFD on top of everything. Or - when wearing a full drysuit - I still wear the PFD *over* the sprayskirt/tunnel. Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do otherwise. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Melissa Reese [mailto:melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net] Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. I would agree with Melissa, I can't see any benefit in wearing your tunnel over the PFD plus I imagine it would let water into the cockpit when rolling or in heavy surf. Mine is so tight that there is no way I could put it over my PFD. David *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa Reese wrote: > Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to > me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the > drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with > keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems > particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. > > I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do > otherwise. Years ago, Feathercraft's K-1 had an integral sprayskirt that was sewn into the deck. You really had to wear it outside your PFD otherwise you risked getting entrapped. It had a velcro closure that was meant to help you wet exit. It always seemed scary to me. Ralph Hoehn mentioned the spraydecks on Pouches (and Kleppers) which are one large piece covering the big opening of a double (and singles too). They open(ed) on one side with velcro or snaps. You definitely would not want THAT under your PFD. Another reason perhaps for wearing a sprayskirt outside the PFD might be in the folding kayaks I mentioned above even when the splash covering consists of a spray deck with two holes to which you attach sprayskirts (theirs or from the aftermarket). The decks are quite high. A shorter individual might find that the sprayskirt forces the PFD up above his/her nose. So for comfort the skirt might be best worn outside the PFD to prevent this ride-up. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: -snip- >>Ralph Hoehn mentioned the spraydecks on Pouches (and Kleppers) which are one large piece covering the big opening of a double (and singles too). They open(ed) on one side with velcro or snaps. You definitely would not want THAT under your PFD. Another reason perhaps for wearing a sprayskirt outside the PFD might be in the folding kayaks I mentioned above even when the splash covering consists of a spray deck with two holes to which you attach sprayskirts (theirs or from the aftermarket). The decks are quite high. A shorter individual might find that the sprayskirt forces the PFD up above his/her nose. So for comfort the skirt might be best worn outside the PFD to prevent this ride-up. ralph diaz<< To the two Ralphs: I understand your points when speaking of the various folding boat spray deck arrangements - especially concerning the open cockpit doubles. I should have made it clearer that I was thinking about non-folding boat arrangements - and even some of the more recent version folding boats (Feathercraft Khat, K-1, etc.) with their "modern" coamings and single cockpit openings. I have however, seen people in "standard coaming" composite boats wearing their tunnels on the outside, and I still see this as peculiar - actually defeating the purpose of a potentially very secure skirt arrangement. I was really wondering why some of these people in particular would wear their skirts in this way. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa Reese wrote: [snip] > Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to > me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the > drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with > keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems > particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. > > I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do > otherwise. As a reformed tunnel-outside paddler, perhaps I can tell of my now-abandoned evil ways: The tunnel-outside crowd is seeking maximum ventilation, and is paddling in waters where only a little slop on the deck is likely. I quit a few years ago, and will not go back. I agree tunnel inside is better. If conditions are so mellow I do not need a sprayskirt, I either leave it off entirely or just loosen it from the coaming. And, yeah, I know the former can lead to problems if the water gets rough unexpectedly. Gotta get my thrills somehow! <g> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>At 11/14/2000 01:29 PM -0800, Melissa Reese wrote: >I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do >otherwise. > >Melissa Melissa and the other posts. An interesting arrangement on the folding boats. For normal (if there is such a thing) kayaks I agree on the tunnel under the PFD, but have seen pictures of folks paddling (may have been Derek Hutchinson or other British kayaker) with it over their PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a new skirt there was one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the inside front of the tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much size into, let alone filling it up and then putting under my PFD. When I asked the owner of the shop she commented that it was intended to be worn over the PFD. Interesting. I look forward to others weighing in on the subject. Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: SNIP Being cantankerous, is not however why I wear my spraydeck outside sometimes, but I also will continue to do it that way no matter what others think (at least until the ACA gets a law passed to take away my paddling license if I don't tuck in my skirt). For me it is a situational thing. If I'm punching out through surf, paddling in the rain and cold or in potentially rough weather I put my spraydeck under my PFD for the shingle effect and the better seal at the waist that it provides that way. Dave is right about why a paddler in a non-folding kayak might put it outside though, ventilation. SNIP Earlier in this thread someone wrote about water funneling into the kayak with the skirt worn over the PFD. As luck would have it, there is a Greenland roll to handle just this task (you didn't think that 30+ rolls were just for tricks did you ;^). Although the vast majority of Greenland kayakers that I have met do not wear PFDs, they do wear a sealskin sprayskirt for summer conditions that has a tall body tube, usually left open at the top for ventilation. The preferred roll for a capsize with this garment is to sweep from the stern to the bow in a low brace (Greenland reverse roll). This roll is very popular in Greenland and is reputed to allow the least amount of water to enter the kayak with an open skirt. I would imagine that this would also work well for the sprayskirt-over-the-PFD crowd. Note that although this roll is similar to a Steyr, the Steyr is performed as a high brace. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa wrote: >>>>>Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs (usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing.<<<<< Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. Sometimes I do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. I'm a much better skier than kayaker. I started skiing when I was two and kayaking not until 29 or 30. Two weeks after a hernia operation I went skiing again last winter. Needless to say, I wasn't pounding through the moguls much that day. So I toured some of the novice runs and kind of got into the swing of things, I tried to ski like a novice gone out of control but at slow speeds. My skiing partner, a ways behind, was in stitches but, some folks would try to help me out by shouting directions to correct my mistakes. One woman kept telling me to lean further forward so I kept leaning even further and further to the rear until I was so far back my boots were in the air most of the time and I was only skiing on my ski tails. I bought my skis and poles at Goodwill or a garage sale and my 20+ year old boots are haywired together so my equipment certainly didn't give me away (I don't have any new equipment). Much later I ran into someone at a party who worked at the ski area and had seen this run. While he correctly guessed that it was all a put-on on my part he wasn't totally sure and his buddy was sure I was for real, just a complete klutz. Being cantankerous, is not however why I wear my spraydeck outside sometimes, but I also will continue to do it that way no matter what others think (at least until the ACA gets a law passed to take away my paddling license if I don't tuck in my skirt). For me it is a situational thing. If I'm punching out through surf, paddling in the rain and cold or in potentially rough weather I put my spraydeck under my PFD for the shingle effect and the better seal at the waist that it provides that way. Dave is right about why a paddler in a non-folding kayak might put it outside though, ventilation. The chimney effect your body heat creates helps keep one cooled down some when paddling hard on a hot day in relatively calm waters. I can put out a lot of heat and I want to dump it as fast as I can without becoming unnecessarily salt covered (by using rotary cooling or throwing water over myself). Unlike Dave, I almost never paddle without the spraydeck on though. Even with the spraydeck wide open an Eskimo roll doesn't flood the cockpit that bad and a roll with a completely open cockpit would leave me having to pump out. I'm long waisted and like lower cockpits so the PFD riding up under my arms isn't a problem but it is for many short waisted folks. I like shoulder straps as they help keep the tube up and open when I'm using it that way. I like the buckle below the zipper on many PFD's too, for the same reason, I can unzip them but still have them on if I need it. The big opening at the top of my spraydeck also often allows me to reach things inside my cockpit (without a zipper or taking the skirt off) like the water bottle behind the seat. I'm sure some of you look at "spraydeck outside" as being a sign saying "unschooled novice" (much like I might view someone who holds the paddle upside down or flips the power face around to do a backstroke). Occasionally, I run into someone very experienced who just likes the way the paddle feels when it is upside down though. To each his own. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > Melissa wrote: > > >>>>>Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs > (usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or > nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing.<<<<< > > Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. Sometimes I > do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. Matt Broze cantankerous? Perish the thought! :-) Actually this post heartens me to brave the scorn of know-it-all paddlers and wear my sprayskirt over my PFD on warm days in relatively calm situations as a way of keeping cooler. Perhaps all PaddleWisers should wear their sprayskirts that way as an identification sign to fellow subscribers. Of course, real PaddleWise paddlers are too expert to wear nylon skirts and there is no way they can get their tight neoprene skirt tunnels over their PFDs. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<r. . . PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a new skirt there was one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the inside front of the tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much size into, let alone filling it up and then putting under my PFD.>> My Snapdragon skirt has a big inside pocket. I carry a hood in it during the cold months, in case I need it. I can get to the pocket by pulling the tunnel down, below my PFD. I also keep the wax for my gloves in there to keep it warm enough to spread when I'm using the gloves that need the tacky wax in serisouly cold conditions. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/15/00 12:52:08 PM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << Of course, real PaddleWise paddlers are too expert to wear nylon skirts and there is no way they can get their tight neoprene skirt tunnels over their PFDs. >> Then there the smart PaddleWise paddlers with a nylon tunnel and neoprene deck. (I can't admit to being too poor to buy all neoprene for the summer and another one to go over the drysuit.) Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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