I see this as the problem with a formalized leader system. While it has the potential of being the safest system, the leader must be competent and really on top of the situation. If the leadership falters in some way, all the responsibility still lies with the leader. It is possible that the leader is just not qualified, in which case the liability is passed up to who ever approved that person as a leader. What typically happens is the leader feels compelled to keep a short leash and rule with an iron fist. If someone wanders from the group, the leader needs to call them back, if someone is not following instruction the leader is forced to ban them from the group. In other words, the leader's main task is as the Fun-Nazi; anyone varying from the set plan must be quashed. This is no fun for the followers, so they evolve away from club sponsored trips. It is no fun for the leaders so they stop volunteering to lead trips, or to keep it fun they loosen the reins and compromise the safety the system was intended to promote. Unfortunately, what tends to happen is a small groups of compatible paddlers form around the periphery of the club. These groups tend to be exclusive and fairly closed. While they would like more members, outsiders don't know about them and don't have the opportunity to learn the skills desired by the existing members. If the original larger club can be maintained with enough diversity it can serve as a training ground for new members to work their way into the sub-groups. On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Steve Holtzman wrote: > If the leader is able to kick someone off of a trip because they > lack the > required skills, than if someone gets hurt, the trip leader could > be legally > liable for saying this person was capable of doing a particular trip. > > That's one of the reasons that our club doesn't use Trip Leaders. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade said: > > Unfortunately, what tends to happen is a small groups of > compatible paddlers form around the periphery of the club. > These groups tend to be exclusive and fairly closed. While > they would like more members, outsiders don't know about them > and don't have the opportunity to learn the skills desired by > the existing members. > > If the original larger club can be maintained with enough > diversity it can serve as a training ground for new members > to work their way into the sub-groups. This is pretty much the way our club works, but fortunately, we don't have the exclusivity that Nick mentions, and parts of one subgroup will periodically paddle with another one. Our groups have formed in two areas. Some are geographic and others are types of paddling. For example, there is one group that prefers rock gardening and surfing in small boats. Then there is another group of the club that comprises the better paddlers in the southern part of the club. Duane Strosaker, who paddles with them has given them the nickname of OCBA or Orange County Bad As**s. The group I usually paddle with has named themselves the "Old Farts". Most are over 50, but we do allow younger people to paddle with us, if they have the skills required. Occasionally, we also host easier trips and practice sessions to help newer paddlers develop and practice the skills required for open ocean paddling, crossings, surf, etc. Since we all live in California, the land of litigation, we are all too familiar with the possible legal ramifications. That is why, on the advice of a prominent local attorney and club member, we use hosts and not leaders. We spell out explicitly, that the individual is responsible for assessing his/her skills and equipment for the suitability of a particular paddle. It only takes one time where they are towed or explicitly told that their skills are not up the group's level before they start attending practice sessions and not the regular weekly paddles. Most people usually ask us after a few practice sessions, if we agree with them about their skill level. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 7/7/05 01:56, Steve Holtzman at sh_at_actglobal.net wrote: > That is why, on the advice > of a prominent local attorney and club member, we use hosts and not leaders. > We spell out explicitly, that the individual is responsible for assessing > his/her skills and equipment for the suitability of a particular paddle. I like this idea, could you expand on the explicit spelling? While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, the walk has begun. Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from California heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" hazards be identified and marked. It was pointed out that outdoor recreation involves a potentially hazardous, changing, environment. Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? Cheers JKA -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Kirk-Anderson said: > I like this idea, could you expand on the explicit spelling? > > While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of > litigation, the walk has begun. > John, The waiver I use for non-club hosted trips is: This is not a CKF or any other club sponsored paddle. We will have experienced paddlers on this trip, but they will not be responsible for telling you what is or is not safe for you to do. We watch out for one another and assist one another, but all individuals are responsible for, and manage their own safety. This responsibility includes assessing your gear, skill level, and physical conditioning relative to conditions and location, as well as making decisions about what you will or will not do. Participants acknowledge that kayaking on the open sea is inherently dangerous and can lead to physical injury including death as well as property damage. Injuries include but are not limited to: Drowning, hypothermia, physical injury from surf, rock collision, boat collision, high seas. Participants, their heirs and assignees, agree to hold the announcers and other participants blameless in the event of such injury, damage or death.. The following is the wording that we use for club hosted trips. It requires a complete individual form for each participant. According to the lawyers, it is a little better than the personal one above that has everybody sign the same form - but is much more convenient and quicker. California Kayak Friends Activity Disclaimer and Waiver Agreement To be signed by all people joining CKF trips on land or water! Participation in any CKF event, whether or not this form is signed, is evidence that participants agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully. It is your acknowledgement that your participation in the activities of California Kayak Friends (CKF) involves some risk of harm to you. Among other things, it also acknowledges that you assume the risks involved and will be totally responsible for taking those risks, for the cost of medical and rescue services and for defending yourself in certain suits. THE RISKS I know I might be exposed to the risks of exposure to hypothermia or hyperthermia; risks inherent in water sports, such as drowning; risks of injury from collision with other kayaks, boats, structures or rocks, and from land and sea animals such as sharks and bears; risks of infection and illness in areas without medical facilities; and that I might be involved in an auto or other accident on my way to or from the trip. Although CKF activities generally involve ocean or fresh water kayaking, they also entail events in mountainous, desert or rocky terrain, in remote and undeveloped areas. Thus, risks normally inherent in such adventure travel are possible, including, but not limited to falling, becoming lost, snake bite, or running out of food or water. These hazards may result in injury or death and loss of or damage to personal property of paddlers or others. I realize that the only requirement for leading/hosting/convening (here called "hosting") a CKF trip is CKF membership. Hosts are rarely professional or trained guides. Hosts are not necessarily certified in Fist Aid, CPR or Lifesaving and do not necessarily carry a first aid kit available to group members. Nor do they necessarily carry VHF radio, signaling gear or other emergency equipment. Hosts are not necessarily skilled in or available for performing rescues in the event of capsize, or for towing in rough conditions. Hosts are not necessarily trained in skills instruction and thus are not generally available to aid guests in developing safe or efficient paddling techniques. I realize that CKF trips often do not meet generally accepted leader-to-paddler ratios or other safety criteria, since paddlers assume full responsibility for their own safety. I know that CKF carries no liability or medical insurance of any kind covering me or my equipment. THE RELEASE AND ASSUMPTION OF RISKS I, the undersigned, acknowledge having read the foregoing. I understand that CKF activities involve risks of harm to myself, my companions and my property and I understand that this description does not include all of the risks which I might encounter in participating in CKF activities. I assume all of the risks involved in participating in CKF activities whether or not I know that the risk exists. In joining this CKF activity I accept the responsibility to personally investigate the risks involved and to make my own independent decision as to whether I am qualified to participate in this activity, I assume full responsibility for determining the conditions of the water, land and weather before and during the trip, and the suitability of those conditions for any particular paddling or other activity. I assume full responsibility for assuring that my paddling equipment and accessories are proper to meet the safety needs of the conditions in which I will be paddling. In joining this trip I certify that I possess sufficient knowledge, skills and judgment to determine my own activities during the trip. I further certify that I am knowledgeable regarding safety equipment and its proper use and have outfitted myself and my boat as I determine in my own best interest. I am responsible for deciding when and to what extent I will follow the Host's direction and when I will chose to act independently of the group. I understand that, in paying any fee charged by the Host, that I do not presume anything different than described in this disclosure and waiver. I also understand that any claims or representations regarding safety or other matters made by the Host are not binding on the Releasees. I further release CKF, its officers, directors, trip Hosts, organizers, fellow participants and each of their agents, associates, employees, heirs and estates (collectively referred to as Releasees) from any and all claims and liability arising out of strict liability or negligence of the Releasees, or of any other person which causes the undersigned injury, death, damages, or property loss or damage. I further agree not to bring any suit or other proceeding or to hold them responsible for any injury to myself or my property. I also agree that, if any suit or other action is brought by any of my relatives, heirs or other persons, arising out of my participation in CKF activities (whether I am the cause or victim of an injury), either I or my estate (in the event of my death, property which might otherwise have been given to my heirs) will pay all costs and expenses, including attorney's fees, court costs, and judgment or award, incurred by or against any of the Releasees in defending against any such proceeding. The foregoing notwithstanding, I do not release Releasees from insured claims or losses arising from motor vehicle accidents, to the extent that they are covered. I do release them from the amount of such claims exceeding the amount of such insurance. CONSENT TO RESCUE, MEDICAL TREATMENT AND PAYMENT THEREOF I also understand that among the risks inherent in these activities is that I may require rescue or medical treatment. I hereby agree that I consent to any rescue, hospital care, or medical or surgical diagnosis or treatment to be rendered to me for any illness or injury that might arise from my participation in CKF activities. I understand and agree that I am solely responsible for all charges for such medical services and rescue operations. I will pay those and reimburse CKF or any person who has expended money for such medical services or rescue operations. Nothing herein shall be deemed to obligate Releasees to provide medical or rescue services. I have carefully read this Agreement and understand its contents. I freely and voluntarily assume all the risks and hazards arising from any of CKF's activities in which I participate as a paddler, spectator, camper, guest or in any other way. This Agreement shall be binding on myself, my family, my heirs, assigns, executors and administrators. If any clause in this Agreement is found to be invalid, the remainder of the Agreement will remain in force. If any legal action be instituted to enforce any provision hereof, the prevailing party shall be entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees. My participation in any CKF event, whether or not I sign this form, is evidence that I agree to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Please PRINT CLEARLY, then Sign ARE YOU A MEMBER OF CKF? [ ] YES [ ] NO Event: _____________________________________________________ Event date: __________________________________________ Name: _____________________________________________________ Address: ___________________________________________ Signature: _________________________________________________ Date signed: ____/_____/____ Phone: (____)______________ Minor's under the age of 18 must have a Minor's name: ______________________________ age: _____ Guardian complete this form form and sign for them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: >While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, >the walk has begun. This asinine and destructive American plague has already infected our neighbours to the north. I'm sorry to hear the symptoms have been spotted in your fair country. >Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from California heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" hazards be identified and marked. I hope the Kiwi courts rule that he was personally responsible. Dammit, I liked not seeing warning signs all over New Zealand! I've never played with a helicopter while in a kayak here in the US. Know why? Omnipresent litigation! The family is asking the court to rule to change the very attitude that probably drew their beloved deceased to your country in the first place. >Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? For how long would you like New Zealand to remain the adventure sports capital of the world? If things get too sanitized, it will be just another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your population of lawyers or state government!) Close your borders to us Yanks before you ever consider sanitizing your country to protect us from ourselves!!!!! (and yes, you can quote me on that!) Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:21 PM 7/11/2005, Shawn Baker wrote: >John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: > >While we haven't - yet - stumbled down the crazy path of litigation, > >the walk has begun. > >This asinine and destructive American plague has already infected our >neighbours to the north. I'm sorry to hear the symptoms have been >spotted in your fair country. > > >Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from >California >heard calls from his family for someone to be held responsible. He was >skiing alone on a groomed field, and no-one saw what happened, but his >body was recovered from a small creek. The family asked that "all" >hazards be identified and marked. > >I hope the Kiwi courts rule that he was personally responsible. > >Dammit, I liked not seeing warning signs all over New Zealand! I've >never played with a helicopter while in a kayak here in the US. Know >why? Omnipresent litigation! > >The family is asking the court to rule to change the very attitude that >probably drew their beloved deceased to your country in the first >place. > > >Hopefully, common sense will win, but for how long? > >For how long would you like New Zealand to remain the adventure sports >capital of the world? If things get too sanitized, it will be just >another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your >population of lawyers or state government!) Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live there are the same. Like many other states in the U.S., it is very diverse. California is not L.A. I was equally appalled at an incident which occurred a few years ago. A student died when he fell into one of Ithaca's gorges and the parents filed a lawsuit against the university. Nevermind, that the incident occurred at 2:30AM, when the student walking back home from a Frat party (his BAC was over double the legal driving limit), and decided to climb over a 3' fence that serves as a boundry around the gorge. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> wrote: > I was equally appalled at an incident which occurred a few years ago. > A > student died when he fell into one of Ithaca's gorges and the parents > filed > a lawsuit against the university. Nevermind, that the incident > occurred at > 2:30AM, when the student walking back home from a Frat party (his BAC > was > over double the legal driving limit), and decided to climb over a 3' > fence > that serves as a boundry around the gorge. Blame the Fraternity!! As a third-generation Greek, I wish people would stop assuming that all Fraternities and Sororities are all the same. Like any other group of people, campus Greeks are diverse. Animal House is not representative of all campus residence houses. I'm sure the Fraternity (as did the University) dumped the alcohol down his throat. The Frat members (assisted by the college dean?) threw the student over the fence. I get your point. LA/SoCal/Hollywood culture is so prevalent and overwhelming it is easy to overlook the rest of the state. It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague spreading to other countries. shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal > responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's > a sad plague spreading to other countries. We don't have to change their attitudes; all we have to change is the legal rules which allow searching for the deepest pocket associated with one of these tragedies and encumbering it with a frivolous suit based on a claim of gross negligence. I'll repeat what I asked before: ___how do we go about changing the aspects of the legal system which allow this?___ To wit, how can we provide the same sort of "Good Samaritan" protection to kayaking trip leaders (and similar) which we have already provided to holders of Red Cross CPR certification? If we can get that to happen, these suits will disappear (he said hopefully). (Background: many years ago, holding a CPR card meant that if you attempted CPR on a person who showed the symptoms of a heart attack (or who was unconscious, had no pulse, and was not breathing), and failed to perform CPR flawlessly, you were exposed to serious liability. Subsequently, laws were passed which allowed CPR providers protection from malicious suits. Forget the exact language, but I believe a litigant now has to establish egregious negligence or somesuch for the suit to proceed, and if the CPR-doer has shown good faith efforts, the suit will be thrown out.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> John Kirk-Anderson <jka_at_netaccess.co.nz> wrote: >> >>> Last week a Coroner's Inquest into the death of a skier from >> California >> heard calls ... on 12/7/05 06:39, John Fereira at jaf30_at_cornell.edu wrote: > Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish > people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live > there are the same. ... Hi John, This was in no way an inditement of California, Californian's, or indeed any group of people. Meeting any individuals of any "group" shows the stupidity of stereotyping. During one three-month tour of the US, the only person I met who I classified as an A--hole was an expat Kiwi! Also, the idea that: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: ...It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague spreading to other countries... is not exclusive to Americans, my industry (the media) lives for that response, and perpetuates it. We are always amazed when someone basically says, "S--t happens". The threat of litigation can have benefits, as explained to me by one man (OK, he WAS from the US) whose partner, a Kiwi, was injured in a para-gliding accident here. The operator involved had a very bad reputation for accidents, but got away with it for far too long, as the para-gliding industry was self regulated, and he was too close to the organisation. The (former US policeman) started an investigation of his own, and with media coverage (we do some things right) the operator was closed down. That was little comfort for those who had life-long injuries from his actions. As the former-cop said to me, this situation would not have gone on for so long in the States, as after he was sued for the first spinal injury his insurance would have gone up, and after the second he would have no insurance, and hence would have gone out of business. This was another case of where the typical Kiwi response, "She'll be right, Mate", was dangerous. There can, arguably, be other benefits from the spot-light of investigation. A cyclist competing in a road-race (Le Race) was killed when she hit an oncoming car while overtaking a bunch on a road she (presumably) believed was closed. In the following criminal investigation, it became apparent that there was confusion among competitors over which parts of the course were closed, and which were open to traffic. The event organiser (Astrid Anderson) was charged with Criminal Nuisance (if I recall correctly) and was convicted. The conviction was eventually overturned on appeal, but not before every sporting event in NZ looked very closely at how it operated. A new industry in traffic management sprang up, and the sale of road-cones and reflective jackets boomed. Events which typically relied on volunteers started to consider how skilled, equipped, and qualified they were. Many smaller events have stopped, due to increased costs. Despite this, potentially dangerous things slip through. I was in one multisport event recently when I saw a marshal, sitting alone on a very exposed ridge, shivering with cold. Later I found out she had no shelter or communications, her first-aid kit was next to useless, and she had little first aid skills. We competitors were far better equipped. Rather than worry too much about litigation-avoidance (or responsibility avoidance), we should instead use this energy to ensure we practise, not just preach, best practice. Still, in this forum I guess we are preaching to the choir! Cheers JKA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > ...It is sad that Americans as a whole do not accept personal responsibility > as a lifestyle. "It's someone else's fault"....and it's a sad plague > spreading to other countries... Shawn your'e right. Right there is the crux of the issue. It all started not to long ago. If you remember back in the 60s there was a man who was later to be known as the "father" of tort law. A fellow by the name of Ralph, "unsafe at any speed" Nader. He set the example to be followed by so many. He figured out that he could exploit that feature of the American psyche to his financial and political advantage. He went after GM on account they had the biggest pockets around at the time. Tried to extort GM claiming the Corvair flipped over unusually easily. In the end it was bogus and his own studies revealed it was no les safe than any other car on the road, in fact in comparison to any other vehicle on the road at the time a smaller number of them ever flipped over. Ol Ralph dismissed the report he commissioned himself as bogus and kept at it and lined his pockets in the process. And it has been down hill ever since. John Kirk Anderson wrote: > Rather than worry too much about litigation-avoidance (or responsibility > avoidance), we should instead use this energy to ensure we practise, not > just preach, best practice. yes but you see my friend there is this little thing called greed. now you cant let little issues like moraliy and responsability get in the way of making some easy money, why well you see I was iiiiiinnnjured, but nooo it wasn't my own dumb fault, I can turn this picture to my advantage and do what al Ralph showed us how to do. Like a few years back in the early 80s when a fellow took an old Piper J3 cub airplane built in 1932 and installed a tripod w/ a video camera in the front seat and went to tow a glider up, only he did not see the van that the owner of the land had parked on the runway cause the airport management had not paid up their rent for a while. Well you can guess what happened. The now dead oh so creative pilots wife successfully sewed and won the largest single award against any corporation to date because Piper aircraft did not think back in 1932 to install a full 4 point seat harness to keep ol Rube Goldberg from mortally impaling himself on the very camera tripod he himself had staled in the front seat. And Piper aircraft went bankrupt. time to go paddling. Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lobby your legislature for caps on recoveries in these types of cases. ----- Original Message ----- > > ___how do we go about changing the aspects of the legal system which allow > this?___ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Likewise, stop ASSuming that all lawyers are alike. Some of us are very good at what we do and most of us don't do liability cases at all. Furthermore, personal injury lawyers would be completely unemployed if greedy people who think they've won the lottery due to their own stupidity would accept responsiblity before suing others. ----- Original Message ----- > >another California. (apologies to Californians...but not to your > >population of lawyers or state government!) > > Blame Cana^H^Hlifornia! As a fifth generation native Californian I wish > people would stop assuming that all of California and the people that live > there are the same. Like many other states in the U.S., it is very > diverse. California is not L.A. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stupid people don't just beat down the narrow path to the personal injury lawyers' doors. Personal injury lawyers hang out awfully big shingles. What percentage do they make?...I thought so. I'm quite certain that personal injury lawyers tell their clients to get over it and accept responsibility when they first walk through the door. I would lead club trips if it weren't for litigious people or personal injury lawyers. Shawn --- Susan <ladyjustice_at_erols.com> wrote: > Furthermore, > personal injury lawyers would be completely unemployed if greedy > people who > think they've won the lottery due to their own stupidity would accept > responsiblity before suing others. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:56 PM 7/12/2005, Shawn Baker wrote: >I would lead club trips if it weren't for litigious people or personal >injury lawyers. You're not the first experienced, skilled paddler that has written here that they won't lead club trips. If local clubs or individuals won't lead trips where does the inexperienced paddler go to paddle on a guided trip? One alternative is that they just go out on their own or an equally inexperienced buddy. We read about what can happen on these trips all the time. For example, this story was posted a couple of months ago: http://www.nps.gov/chis/press053105.htm The other alternative is that inexperienced (or experienced) paddlers will sign up with an outfitter for an advertised guided tour. While there are quite a few reputable shops that offer guided tours I know that there are also many that have "guides" whose primary qualifications are that they live in the area, have spent *some* time in a kayak, and are willing to work at near minimum wage. I went on a guided tour a few years ago with a half dozen friends, none of which had ever been in a kayak before, and one of the "guides" was paddling a 12' rec boat without a spray skirt (which allowed him to put his feet on the foredeck). One of my friends capsized, and even though both of the guides were closer to him than I neither headed toward him right away. I ended up do an assisted rescue, and he was fine (though he lost his prescription glasses and couldn't drive without them). In any case, as far as I can tell, the liabilities that a paddling shop has that offers guided tours aren't any different from what an organized club might have, and they have more to lose (their business and livelihood). I would imagine that the waiver one might sign to go on guided tour offered from a paddling shop is worth about the same as one signed for a club sponsored trip. If clubs and individuals refuse to lead trips or provide training we are essentially asking paddling shops to shoulder the liability burden. I know that at least in the case of a friend of mine, he's not getting rich running a paddling shop that offers guided tours, lessons, rentals, boats, and gear. It would probably take one lawsuit to put him out of business. If club and individuals are afraid of litigious people and personal injury lawyers, small shop owners are too, and many just might decide that all the potential trouble just isn't worth it, especially when competition in the form for big box chain stores are coming in to the area and selling boats and gear, and close up shop. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Although not a fan of lawyers or litigation, I think it is a cheap excuse to blame the lawyers for your lack of interest in leading trips. Personally, I am not big on leading trips because I think it is a pain. I do worry about the safety of people under my guidance, and I would much rather not have that responsibility. It amounts to basic laziness and the selfish desire to enjoy myself without worrying about others. I would like to pawn off my selfishness on the backs of personal injury lawyers, but it isn't their fault. If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade said: If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility. I second that. The whitewater club I belong to had a president about twenty years ago who often led trips for club members. One place she took them was the Gauley in West Virginia, a significant whitewater challenge. The Prez couldn't handle herself in Class III water, let alone rescue anyone in Class IV. She once confided to me that she "loves running blind drops." She was a fool. No one died, no one got seriously injured, no one got sued. But a whole lot of people quit the sport, after being scared out of their wits. I've been on commercial sea kayak expeditions where I was by far a better paddler than any of the guides. So, who do you trust? The answer, I think, is no one that you haven't researched. I am happy to lead trips and do it often. I volunteer with a youth counseling service to lead kayak trips. We have gone to Glacier Bay, Alaska, to Georgian Bay, Ontario, to Lake Powell. We go to Maine every summer. With teens who are mostly court committed to the trip. Lots of risk, but lots of reward. You get insurance, you get training, you practice, you plan and then you decide for yourself how far to go with risk. I would guess that most of the people who would never lead a trip learned how to paddle from someone who was willing to take the risk. So leave it to those of us who are comfortable with it. But, I think, blaming lawyers is really misguided. Lawyers are tradesmen (and women) who are hired to do a job at the request of someone. There might be a few ambulance chasers out there, but I've never run into a kayak chaser. Jim Tibensky *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>You're not the first experienced, skilled paddler that has written here that they won't lead club trips. >If local clubs or individuals won't lead trips where does the inexperienced paddler go to paddle on a guided trip? >The other alternative is that inexperienced (or experienced) paddlers will sign up with an outfitter for an advertised guided tour. While there are quite a few reputable shops that offer guided tours I know that there are also many that have "guides" whose primary qualifications are that they live in the area, have spent *some* time in a kayak, and are willing to work at near minimum wage. Finding reputable instruction requires some minimal research. I work for a shop that I can assure you offers what I consider to be exceptionally competent instructors and guides. If they weren't - I wouldn't work for them. We relentlessly work on training our instructors and guides, and I can assure you that they are all top notch. I believe the people I work with are in it more for the love of the sport then the money - I know that's why I do it. On the other hand, my experiences with the local kayaking clubs have been very disappointing, to say the least. It seems that several of the "leaders" were more interested in trying to impress the novice paddlers with their machismo and kayak tricks then they were in leading an actual organized and "safe" trip. No wonder they are so concerned about the liability of it. They all talk a big game - but talk is cheap. I have got to believe that if someone really wants to learn how to do things correctly in this sport then they will be MUCH better off spending the money to get professional instruction from people who know what they are doing and have learned how to teach it. Although I'm sure the instruction you get at a club event is worth everything you've paid for it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sounds like a troll Scott, I'll bite. No question there are many outfitters who employ competent, motivated, instructors, some of them are world class paddlers and I'm proud to call several of them friends. Equally sure there are some who have "guides" with questionable competency. The one thing all outfitters have in common is that instruction is not cheap. I'll grant you not all kayak clubs are equal, even in the best, some "leaders" are better than others. In the club I know best though most, if not all, of the instructors teaching classes and clinics are ACA certified instructors or BCU certified coaches, many are both. Some are also working or have worked as Pro's. You do not have to be a best-of-the-best paddler technically to teach a class to beginners, you do have to know how to teach. The ACA, BCU, and others train and certify teachers. While club instructors may not be world class paddlers, they are teaching within a club out of love of the sport and to give, especially to beginners, the fundamentals of safe paddling at a price all can afford. If your local clubs are so needy, perhaps you and your peers could consider volunteering your time. Certainly it's a challenge and frustrating, but it is a way to give back to the sport to those who couldn't afford it otherwise. Best, Rob. Scott wrote: Finding reputable instruction requires some minimal research. I work for a shop that I can assure you offers what I consider to be exceptionally competent instructors and guides. If they weren't - I wouldn't work for them. We relentlessly work on training our instructors and guides, and I can assure you that they are all top notch. I believe the people I work with are in it more for the love of the sport then the money - I know that's why I do it. On the other hand, my experiences with the local kayaking clubs have been very disappointing, to say the least. It seems that several of the "leaders" were more interested in trying to impress the novice paddlers with their machismo and kayak tricks then they were in leading an actual organized and "safe" trip. No wonder they are so concerned about the liability of it. They all talk a big game - but talk is cheap. I have got to believe that if someone really wants to learn how to do things correctly in this sport then they will be MUCH better off spending the money to get professional instruction from people who know what they are doing and have learned how to teach it. Although I'm sure the instruction you get at a club event is worth everything you've paid for it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/13/2005 8:27:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, jimtibensky_at_fastmail.fm writes: Nick Schade said:" If you really want to lead club trips, do it. Your risk of being sued is about the same as you drowning while paddling alone. Sure, shit happens, and in their grief survivors may lash out, but don't blame someone else if you really just don't want to be bothered. It is your decision and your responsibility." Then Jim said:"You get insurance, you get training, you practice, you plan and then you decide for yourself how far to go with risk. I would guess that most of the people who would never lead a trip learned how to paddle from someone who was willing to take the risk. So leave it to those of us who are comfortable with it. But, I think, blaming lawyers is really misguided. Lawyers are tradesmen (and women) who are hired to do a job at the request of someone. There might be a few ambulance chasers out there, but I've never run into a kayak chaser." Leading trips is a very informative process. I have learned a lot of my tendencies and those of my friends and fellow paddlers. It is a pain in the butt sometimes from an organizational perspective. I have to collect waivers; ACA day fees if they are not current members;send emails as to where to meet, no, scratch that, go here now the put in has changed; organize the shuttle; send in the waivers and fees to the club; appoint body guards for suspect paddlers; reign in the speedsters a little; hover over the NOAA forecast with worry; the list is nearly endless. The reward is a bit of organizational tuning for me and the knowledge that someone who was looking for good company in certain waters got that. As a native Californian I should be running away from responsibility at all costs, as it's apparently in our DNA to sue and be sued. I have never been in a movie, nor stood on a surfboard but all I met in the Rocky's as a seasonal wrangler at various dude ranches assumed kiddingly I must have done so. I do not for know for certain where the California stereotypes come from but do have my suspicions. Most Californians are not from there, they moved in within their lifetime. Most who move to California is to take advantage of the fact that it is one of the primary economic engines of the United States, and thus the western world. Yes, I am concerned about our litigous society. I'm also concerned about seeing to it that clubs have newer faces to lead trips to ease the burden off the veterans who have been pretty committed to the clubs over the years. I think most of us prefer our personal trips best, but the more formal ones can be pretty rewarding, too. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with Rob G More leaders die in the carpark than are sued by about a factor of 10 Seeing the joy of people being taken on paddles to areas they would otherwise never get to see is a great reward, worth the very tiny risk of being sued Ian Dewey Manager - Education and Development Australian Canoeing *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, Those who have negative stereotypes for people in LA or the rest of California watch too many TV shows. Organizing club paddles isn't so bad. First, announce the paddle in a manner that almost anyone who isn't qualified won't show up. You really have to scare them with how fast the paddle and how bad the conditions are going to be. Second, have a good clause. Mine is usually: "You are welcome to share the ocean with us. Just be self-sufficient, responsible for your own safety, and willing to be left behind if you fall behind." Try to sue me with that one! Third, once the paddle starts, quickly identify paddlers who can't handle the conditions and politely send them back. They are usually thankful for it. Duane Southern California Who has never seen Bay Watch or the The OC www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been following this discussion closely and finally think I need to chime in with some perspective. I live in Senegal and I'm an advanced beginner kayaker. In Senegal, there are no kayaking clubs and no kayaking centers/shops that provide training and/or rentals. When I first started kayaking I took commercial kayaking training and went on a few guided tours. I also joined a great paddling club, in the DC area, the Chesapeake Paddlers Association (CPA). Club members reinforced my rescue skills and taught me how to roll. And, members generously organized guided tours that were very much appreciated by us newcomers. Now that I don't have either option, boy do I miss it. So, I'm trying to create both. I started by organizing introduction to kayaking classes with help from Ousmane, the captain of Senegal's national kayaking team, who is a good teacher -- he provides the instruction, I provide the logistic and the kayaks. Do I take a risk during these classes? While luckily CPA members donated PFDs to our new "Pirates of Dakar" club so at least paddlers are now wearing PFDs, I always worry that someone will get hurt. Since I'm in Senegal its unlikely I'd be sued if something happened, but its not the lawsuit I'm stressed about -- its the personal responsibility I'd feel if someone got hurt. It is worth it? Yes -- I love kayaking and its safer and more enjoyable to have friends to kayak with. And, it feels good to introduce people to a sport I enjoy. But, a community needs a minimal number of kayaker which is where the commercial kayaking center comes in -- novices can rent kayaks, get good instruction, try a few guided trips and then hopefully buy their own kayak from the same shop -- then, the club would have some depth and vibrancy. So, with help from Peace Corps, I'm working with Ousmane so that he can start a commercially viable kayaking center in Dakar. This is all a lot of work, but again its worth it. Maybe in the U.S. we've started to take all of this for granted -- there are so many options, we forget how good we have it. Spend a few months with me in Senegal and you'll be thankful for both the commercial kayaking centers and kayaking clubs, and maybe you'll be motivated to spend the time and shoulder the stress and responsibility of leading a trip. Beth Impex Montauk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I appreciate the time everyone took to respond to my worries. Below is the response from a club member who is retiring this month after 30+ years as a general surgeon. > > > HI......Sorry I didn't know you were worried about the 'liability > issue'....It is vexing to say the least.....It is the main reason I'm > retiring....It's there and it's real.....and I just don't feel like > worrying about it anymore......just buying insurance doesn't solve > it......it makes it more likely......being cerified in CPR doesn't > solve it....It just makes it more likely.....The less you > promise......the less you are liable for.....I like the idea of just > being a social club..... Me too. Another surgeon said that if an attorney can punch holes through a medical waiver then a club waiver would be an even easier target. Now its time for me to give it a rest and go sand my hull. Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was just doing some surfing for kayak accessories and noticed that GRO (Great River Outfitters) was sold by the previous owners (Stan Chladak sp?) and is now located in Rhode Island. Anyone know who bought it? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Kayak Centre in Wickford, RI: http://www.kayakcentre.com/ They are the probably the biggest kayak retailer in southern New England. On Jul 11, 2005, at 1:09 PM, John Fereira wrote: > I was just doing some surfing for kayak accessories and noticed > that GRO (Great River Outfitters) was sold by the previous owners > (Stan Chladak sp?) and is now located in Rhode Island. Anyone know > who bought it? Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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