>> I would say that if you don't emphasize teaching the roll, then your course has completely missed the boat!! (so to speak :) What good Greenland kayaker cannot roll?? And rolling with a proper Greenland paddle is so easy! Your course sounds too good to settle for mediocrity in this way. >> Not to differ with Kevin, whose point I agree with, but merely as an historical anecdote: F. Spencer Chapman, in one of his books about the British Arctic Air Route Expeditions in East Greenland, said that only about a quarter of the Inuit in the Angmagssalik district were good at rolling, and many, if not most, could not roll at all! Chapman several times comments on the fatalism of the natives, whom he admired and apparently got along well with, which might have contributed to a lack of interest in learning to roll. I think the ACA Coastal Kayak Instructors Manual emphasizes the importance of learning to roll, though it does not include it in the two-day Introduction to Coastal Kayaking course because of lack of time. As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? Because sea kayaks are a pain in the butt to put in a pool with 10 other whitewater kayaks and canoes. I did it and learned the skill but it certainly wasn't an easy fit or comfortable session... Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Because sea kayaks are a pain in the butt to put in a pool with 10 >other whitewater kayaks and canoes. I did it and learned the skill >but it certainly wasn't an easy fit or comfortable session... We must be lucky here. We had our second pool session of the season last Monday and there were I believe only one or two whitewater boats (and one of them manned by a sea kayaker). I have always had great fun at the pool sessions here. And hey, there are always several other Paddlewise folks there! Last year, a group of us from TCSKA rented an olympic-sized pool for three hours. That pool was actually large enough that one could practice some strokes. -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:21 AM 12/9/98 -0600, Chuck wrote: >As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is >considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > Ah, the great roll debate. Are you a "real" kayaker if you can't roll? I'm sure this has been batted around before, but before I came "onboard" Paddlewise, so since fools rush in, my two cents (Canadian, so about .0000005 cents American)… To put my thoughts in context: 1. I can roll. Formerly damn near bombproofly, though somewhat less reliably now as result of some spinal column problems. I have done a little whitewater paddling, and a lot of surf kayaking. 2. I have never been a paid professional guide, but have taught people to roll in pools and open water, and have taken individuals, some with no experience, on trips of varying difficulty. This is in a friend and/or Significant Other context, not as a club trip leader. I can see why rolling is a basic skill in whitewater. Without it you're going to spend a lot of time swimming, and not having much fun. Because sea-kayaking is done to a variety of different extremes, I think the situation is different here. It's quite possible, if you choose to, to paddle your entire sea-kayaking career without ever needing a roll. My inclination is to teach rescues like the stirrup rescue, or paddle float self-rescue first. This is because I believe that beginners would have the greatest chance of success with these, and that these rescues can in fact be performed in the sort of relatively mild conditions that beginners would and should be out in. Of course, the paddlers must be dressed for immersion in the local water. I would then teach bracing and rolling in parallel, for two reasons. A reliable roll gives paddlers the confidence to truly commit to a brace, as opposed just sitting up right and making token slaps at the water with their paddle. Bracing and rolling are also overlapping skills in that a sweep for a roll is essentially a dynamic brace, just done from underneath. I would emphasise that bracing is preferable to rolling, and that not being unintentionally in a situation where you need to brace is even more preferable. (In a true crisis, one thing is better than presence of mind—absence of body!) Can you be a "real" sea kayaker if you can't roll? Sure - I know a lot of very skilled types, some of whom, for physical reasons, cannot roll. They compensate by being very skilled bracers, and/or by exercising very good judgement about weather and water conditions. I suspect they are safer in their own way than kayakers whose ability to roll leads them to adopt an overly gung-ho attitude and charge blindly into danger. Perhaps the requirements for certification levels should be more "results orientated". Rather than having to demonstrate a roll, for example, you would need to demonstrate that you can cope with and/or land through particular surf conditions. If you do that by effective bracing, I think that in many ways that is preferable to doing it by rolling. ("To be able to roll is a sign of success—to need to roll is a sign of failure.") Cheers, Philip T. **************************************** Mountain Equipment Co-op 1655 West 3rd Avenue, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J 1K1 Tel: 640-732-1989 Fax: 604-731-6483 email: pid_at_mec.ca Visit our website at: http://www.mec.ca ***************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Philip wrote: --snip-- I would then teach bracing and rolling in parallel, for two reasons. A reliable roll gives paddlers the confidence to truly commit to a brace, as opposed just sitting up right and making token slaps at the water with their paddle. Bracing and rolling are also overlapping skills in that a sweep for a roll is essentially a dynamic brace, just done from underneath. I would emphasise that bracing is preferable to rolling, and that not being unintentionally in a situation where you need to brace is even more preferable. (In a true crisis, one thing is better than presence of mind—absence of body!) --snip-- Wise words. The annoying thing that I regularly come across when teaching kayaking is that my students usually want to learn to roll immediately, rather than put in the time required to learn to brace properly. Between sessions those who work on their rolls often end up with shoddy rolls and shoddy braces. Those who work on their braces often end up with good braces and good rolls. I would like to see instructors de-emphasize rolling and stressing bracing for novice/intermediate students -- not that I disagree with rolls (I believe that they are essential), but that I find more important skills such as bracing being subsumed by the focus on rolling. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Wise words. The annoying thing that I regularly come across when teaching >kayaking is that my students usually want to learn to roll immediately, >rather than put in the time required to learn to brace properly. Between >sessions those who work on their rolls often end up with shoddy rolls and >shoddy braces. I think this works well in theory, but I'd have to agree with Chuck that learning a roll really adds confidence to a brace. A lot of bracing that people without a roll do is token slapping -- I know from personal experience. When I was first starting out I was always nervous about really committing to a brace, especially a high sculling brace. I think that by learning a sweep roll you are really forced to learn good sculling technique as well as develop a good hip-snap. Besides, with winter (almost) here there are plenty of opportunities to use beginners in the pool to practise these theories on! ;-) -Patrick PS I just spent the last four hours planning my Greenland paddle. It is actually starting to resemble a paddle and not a 2x4! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/10/98 1:13:51 AM EST, pmaun_at_bitstream.net writes: << A lot of bracing that people without a roll do is token slapping -- I know from personal experience. >> Find a flat sandy ocean beach with small surf 2 to 3 feet surf. Go with someone with experience. This is one of the few places a Sea kayaker can learn to lean and bracing in a Sea kayak. Wear a helmit. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck wrote; (SNIP) > >As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is >considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about canoeing? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Chuck wrote; > (SNIP) > > > >As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > >considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > > HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about > canoeing? We canoeists just need to add a weighted keel to the canoe & strap ourselves in. That would make our boats self-righting just like most larger sailboats. Oh, I forgot. We also need a good sprayskirt or plenty of floatation to counter the weight of the keel. Otherwise the roll will be completed on the way to the bottom. I seem to recall that happening to the "Vasa" & to Henry VIII's big canoe, the "Mary Rose". -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Chuck wrote; >(SNIP) >> >>As Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? John Winters responded: >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about >canoeing? I consider it pretty basic in canoeing too. I paddled decked C-1 for about 15 years, though. I've rolled 17' Grummans... admittedly with a bit of effort. I should also admit that shoulder problems preclude my rolling any more. Rich K probably still does, but he's a young'n <grin>. Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/10/1998 9:08:12 PM EST, lhays_at_canby.com writes: << I consider it pretty basic in canoeing too. I paddled decked C-1 for about 15 years, though. I've rolled 17' Grummans... admittedly with a bit of effort. I should also admit that shoulder problems preclude my rolling any more. Rich K probably still does, but he's a young'n <grin>. Hank Hays >> In my younger years before there were a proliferation of kayaks, I too rolled Grummans to see what it was like to roll a kayak. Maybe that is why I still own canoes adn not kayaks. P S I don't roll canoes anymore either! John LeBlanc *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank wrote; >I consider it pretty basic in canoeing too. I paddled decked C-1 for about >15 years, though. I've rolled 17' Grummans... admittedly with a bit of >effort. I should also admit that shoulder problems preclude my rolling any >more. Rich K probably still does, but he's a young'n <grin>. Basic? Is a C-1 a canoe? No forget I asked that. Did you roll your Grumman fully loaded for a trip? Basic? Does any ACA course teach rolling canoes for wilderness tripping? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about >canoeing? rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+ member club. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I think you missed the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Your club (at least judging from your signature banner) is a sea kayak club. We all know that sea kayakers --- for a variety of reasons -- avoid learning to roll. White water kayakers, on the other hand, are obsessed with rolling. 80% of the white water kayakers I know have solid river-rolls and the other 20% are working very hard to get theirs. Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an advanced technique in white water paddling. Given that rolling a sea kayak is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. The benefits of rolling a sea kayak are almost as great as in a white water boat. Its fun to stray into an intense tide rip or pounding surf and being able to relax 'cause you can fall back on your roll. It greatly expands the range of conditions you can safely enjoy. I qualify my opening sentence with the word "almost", however, since some portion of the sea kayaking population chooses to always paddle in calm water and as long as they take steps to stick to that decision, they may not NEED to know how to roll (though even they would benefit from the obvious saftey benefits of having a roll). --Tim P.S. Anticipating a response from the gentleman from New York concerning folding boats, there are boats that are hard to roll by design hence, it is therefore possible that for these isolated cases, it is not productive to push acquisition of rolling skills. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Zen [SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:14 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > >>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > > > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about > >canoeing? > > rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than > 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+ > member club. > > mark > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > #-Fortune: > "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" > -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems > > "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" > -- Dave Livigni > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people > tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak > rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be > that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an > advanced technique in white water paddling. Only very serious sea kayakers _who intend to put themselves in bumpy water_ (open ocean, surf, tidal rips) learn to roll, and not all of them. This represents a minority of sea kayakers, many of whom don't want to see any more than a 2" riffle. _All_ ww kayakers intend to put themselves in bumpy water; that's the point of the sport, so a roll is basic to ww. Also, a swim in a river rapid exposes you to hazards (rocks, undercuts, strainers, keeper holes) that a swim in the ocean generally doesn't. > Given that rolling a sea kayak > is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak > fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is > no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. > None, except that most sea kayakers don't feel they need to roll, and they're probably right, considering the conditions the intend to paddle in. BTW, I know a number of WW kayakers with decent Class III combat rolls who were not able to roll even a well-fitting sea kayak at first, including me. I would disagree that a sea kayak is as easy to roll as a ww boat. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If a person wants to sea kayak, but does not want to learn how to roll, then maybe they should by a sit on top boat, like a surf ski. The 19 to 24 foot long surfski are every bit as fast, if not faster than any sea kayak, and can be rigged with hatches for storing gear, just like a sea kayak. Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Steve Cramer Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 11:51 AM To: Paddlewise Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolls (was ACA meetings: Greenland) Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people > tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak > rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be > that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an > advanced technique in white water paddling. Only very serious sea kayakers _who intend to put themselves in bumpy water_ (open ocean, surf, tidal rips) learn to roll, and not all of them. This represents a minority of sea kayakers, many of whom don't want to see any more than a 2" riffle. _All_ ww kayakers intend to put themselves in bumpy water; that's the point of the sport, so a roll is basic to ww. Also, a swim in a river rapid exposes you to hazards (rocks, undercuts, strainers, keeper holes) that a swim in the ocean generally doesn't. > Given that rolling a sea kayak > is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak > fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is > no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. > None, except that most sea kayakers don't feel they need to roll, and they're probably right, considering the conditions the intend to paddle in. BTW, I know a number of WW kayakers with decent Class III combat rolls who were not able to roll even a well-fitting sea kayak at first, including me. I would disagree that a sea kayak is as easy to roll as a ww boat. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, I guess it's time for my two pennies... Fortunately many of my feelings have already been discussed, so I get to write less. :) ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Steve Cramer wrote: > Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > > > Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people > > tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak > > rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be > > that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an > > advanced technique in white water paddling. > > Only very serious sea kayakers _who intend to put themselves in bumpy > water_ (open ocean, surf, tidal rips) learn to roll, and not all of > them. This represents a minority of sea kayakers, many of whom don't > want to see any more than a 2" riffle. > > _All_ ww kayakers intend to put themselves in bumpy water; that's the > point of the sport, so a roll is basic to ww. Also, a swim in a river > rapid exposes you to hazards (rocks, undercuts, strainers, keeper holes) > that a swim in the ocean generally doesn't. I would pretty much agree with the above two paragraphs, except to say that I would much rather take a swim in a rocky river than get separated from my sea kayak in cold PNW water more than 1/4 mile from shore. I think the possibility of losing one's sea kayak at sea is very frightening, and in conditions that would make an average paddler flip, the chances of losing the kayak are significant, even if friends are nearby. It doesn't take much wind to send a kayak on its way, forcing a resucer to choose between rescuing the boat or the paddler. Deep Trouble chapters 4 and 22 both have stories where the rescuer went for the kayak first, and was blown downwind faster then the swimmer could swim, thus forcing the rescuer to abandon the kayak to save the swimmer. One of the reasons I am so vocal in advocating the roll as a basic skill is to let sea kayakers know that it is a realistic achievable skill that almost anyone can learn, and that it increases the overall safety of individuals and groups TREMENDOUSLY. I think it is sad that whitewater paddlers take safety more seriously than sea kayakers in general. I am not trying to put off anyone on this list, because I think this an excellent place for paddlers to learn about safety, but the fact that the ACA considers rolling an advanced skill builds too much complacency in the general public about the importance of rolling. I don't mind so much if a beginning paddler decides that learning to roll is not a priority, as long as they make it a rational informed decision. It sets me on edge when instructors or advanced kayakers say that rolling is an advanced skill needed only by whitewater kayakers and tide rip crazies. Even worse is when a beginner is told that they won't need to learn to roll if they avoid rough water. How many stories in Deep Trouble alone depict average paddlers who start out in calm water and get into trouble when the weather or current changes, or when they encounter an unknown tide rip? I can think of four right off the top of my head (chaps 1,6,17,18). To sum up, I think all beginning lessons ought to encourage rolling no matter what. A paddler can then choose to say "rolling is not for me", but this should not be a decision that is decided for them by others saying it is not important. > > > Given that rolling a sea kayak > > is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak > > fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is > > no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. > > > > None, except that most sea kayakers don't feel they need to roll, and > they're probably right, considering the conditions the intend to paddle > in. BTW, I know a number of WW kayakers with decent Class III combat > rolls who were not able to roll even a well-fitting sea kayak at first, > including me. I would disagree that a sea kayak is as easy to roll as a > ww boat. A few comments on this. There are several reasons why sea kayaks can be be harder to roll because of poor design. One is having sliding footpedals to control a rudder. This can make rolling much more difficult. I remember having a lot of difficulty rolling the Northwest kayaks Pursuit outfitted with a rudder -- at one point I missed four straight rolls and was given a bow rescue. I really had to concentrate on perfect technique to roll this boat. Second, I see few sea kayaks that are outfitted to fit people as well as a standard whitewater boat. How many sea kayaks have thigh braces that are well defined hooks? Not too many... most are just little bumps or even a piece of foam glued underneath a flat deck. Third, width makes a difference. A 22" sea kayak should be relatively easy to roll, whereas my 26.5" wide and only 7'9" long rodeo kayak is very hard to roll. Well, I guess that reflects my biases for the day. btw, for those interested in opinions on the Pygmy Arctic Tern, I am taking mine out for it maiden voyage this weekend. I will give report on its performance when I can. Cheers, Kevin > > Steve > -- > Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can > University of Georgia always tell what you > Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > Mark, > > I think you missed the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Your club (at least > judging from your signature banner) is a sea kayak club. We all know that > sea kayakers --- for a variety of reasons -- avoid learning to roll. White > water kayakers, on the other hand, are obsessed with rolling. 80% of the > white water kayakers I know have solid river-rolls and the other 20% are > working very hard to get theirs. hi tim, i think you missed _my_ point... i've included it below. the discussion is canoes, and as my address [canoeist_at_netbox.com] should also suggest, i was/am referring to canoe rolling.... as i've also responded to others off-line... mark > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Zen [SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:14 PM > > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > > > >>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > > >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > > > > > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about > > >canoeing? > > > > rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than > > 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+ > > member club. > > > > mark > > > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- > > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > > po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ > > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] > > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > > #-Fortune: > > "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" > > -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems > > > > "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" > > -- Dave Livigni > > > > ************************************************************************** > > * > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > ************************************************************************** > > * > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
IMO Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all for all. If one has to perform an Eskimo roll then they are doing something wrong. Most instructors I know that are any good teach kayakers how to roll last because if you learn to roll early it is generally found that paddlers have poor paddling techniques and feel that they can just roll if they make a mistake. Kirby -----Original Message----- From: Mattson, Timothy G [SMTP:timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:32 AM To: 'canoeist_at_netbox.com'; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan Mark, I think you missed the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Your club (at least judging from your signature banner) is a sea kayak club. We all know that sea kayakers --- for a variety of reasons -- avoid learning to roll. White water kayakers, on the other hand, are obsessed with rolling. 80% of the white water kayakers I know have solid river-rolls and the other 20% are working very hard to get theirs. Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an advanced technique in white water paddling. Given that rolling a sea kayak is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. The benefits of rolling a sea kayak are almost as great as in a white water boat. Its fun to stray into an intense tide rip or pounding surf and being able to relax 'cause you can fall back on your roll. It greatly expands the range of conditions you can safely enjoy. I qualify my opening sentence with the word "almost", however, since some portion of the sea kayaking population chooses to always paddle in calm water and as long as they take steps to stick to that decision, they may not NEED to know how to roll (though even they would benefit from the obvious saftey benefits of having a roll). --Tim P.S. Anticipating a response from the gentleman from New York concerning folding boats, there are boats that are hard to roll by design hence, it is therefore possible that for these isolated cases, it is not productive to push acquisition of rolling skills. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Zen [SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:14 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > >>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > > > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about > >canoeing? > > rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than > 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+ > member club. > > mark > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > #-Fortune: > "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" > -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems > > "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" > -- Dave Livigni > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby Stevens wrote: > IMO Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all for all. If one has to perform an Eskimo roll then they are doing something wrong. I roll to cool off on a hot day. This is wrong??? I learned to roll in a WW kayak and had no problem doing it in my sea kayak. In fact, I nailed my offside roll in a sea kayak before I could get it in a WW. I don't think it's harder to roll a sea kayak. It's different, but not harder. Rolling is fun. I do it lots in WW since I often get stuck in situations where an inverted aqueous manouver is appropriate and I don't want to swim. I have never _had_ to roll my sea kayak - even in difficult conditions. Learning to roll allowed me to learn extended bracing more easily. Put me on the side that says you should learn to roll early in your paddling career and use it to extend your learning experiences. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >P.S. Anticipating a response from the gentleman from New York concerning >folding boats, there are boats that are hard to roll by design hence, it is >therefore possible that for these isolated cases, it is not productive to >push acquisition of rolling skills. > Ah, but (not to denigrate the unnamed Mr Diaz's abilities :-) ) at the end of my first season of paddling (this year) I succeeded on only my second attempt to roll my Feathercraft K1 without much trouble. I did use an extended paddle roll (pawlata?), but I am pretty confident that next year (or maybe this winter if I get into a pool session) that I can "convert" that into a screw roll (or C to C). And I definitely agree that having a solid roll will help to be more relaxed in heavy conditions. I went to Wales in Sept and although I had done the successful roll (just the previous week) I did NOT feel that it was something I could depend on, and I was VERY nervous when I was in any of the many tidal races that we crossed or played in. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ahhhhh, a meaningless debate about the virtues of rolling. What fun. :) First off, as Mark pointed out, his comments about rolling refered to canoes -- not kayakes. So I missed his point. Sorry Mark. However, I thiink Kirby missed my point and expressed a common misconception about the role of rolling. There is no doubt that one role of rolling is to cover your ass when something goes wrong. In this case, the need to roll follows from paddler failure and you could argue that depending on the roll covered up for poor technique. I submit, however, that the primary purpose of rolling is to expand your saftey envelope thereby letting you "play with your kayak". Rolling lets you try things you would never try if every flip meant a swim. For example, when surfing, I woud never try to get my boat vertical (i.e. an ender) unless I had a roll. Yes, the ender is likely to flip me, but its not that I did something wrong. I pusposely for my enjoyment pushed the boat into such a strange attitude that flipping was highly likely. Any time I play in the surf --- in a white water boat or a sea kayak -- I flip all the time!!! This extends across the full range of the sport. I can purposely charge into a nastey tide rip without worrying that a false move would result in a flip. I can paddle alone at night in flat water knowing if I hit a submerged log and flip, I'll come right up with a roll. It opens up whole so much for the paddler. I genuinely feel sorry for people without a roll. They are missing out on so much!!!! Learning to roll, however, is not excuse for failing to get the other skills required in kayaking. For example, I know several good white water kayakers with flawless rolls and solid class IV skills who have no clue about how to execute a proper forward stroke. So while I think Kirby missed my point, I bascially agree with Kirby that rolling must take a back seat to the fundamental strokes as well as bracing. --Tim P.S. Anticipating a reply from the esteemed Mr. Winters, rolling does not replace the need for sounds judgement. As a careful reading of "Deep trouble" will show, even a kayaker with a roll can find them selves in deadly conditions where their roll can't save them. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Stevens [SMTP:stevens_at_islandnet.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:12 AM > To: 'Mattson, Timothy G'; 'canoeist_at_netbox.com'; > paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > IMO Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all > for all. If one has to perform an Eskimo roll then they are doing > something wrong. Most instructors I know that are any good teach > kayakers how to roll last because if you learn to roll early it is > generally found that paddlers have poor paddling techniques and feel > that they can just roll if they make a mistake. > > Kirby > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mattson, Timothy G [SMTP:timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:32 AM > To: 'canoeist_at_netbox.com'; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > Mark, > > I think you missed the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Your club (at > least > judging from your signature banner) is a sea kayak club. We all know that > sea kayakers --- for a variety of reasons -- avoid learning to roll. > White > water kayakers, on the other hand, are obsessed with rolling. 80% of the > white water kayakers I know have solid river-rolls and the other 20% are > working very hard to get theirs. > > Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people > tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak > rolling by construction an advanced technique. But it doesn't have to be > that way -- which is the point of the Nigel Foster quote. Its not an > advanced technique in white water paddling. Given that rolling a sea > kayak > is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak > fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is > no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. > > The benefits of rolling a sea kayak are almost as great as in a white > water > boat. Its fun to stray into an intense tide rip or pounding surf and > being > able to relax 'cause you can fall back on your roll. It greatly expands > the > range of conditions you can safely enjoy. I qualify my opening sentence > with the word "almost", however, since some portion of the sea kayaking > population chooses to always paddle in calm water and as long as they take > steps to stick to that decision, they may not NEED to know how to roll > (though even they would benefit from the obvious saftey benefits of having > a > roll). > > > --Tim > > P.S. Anticipating a response from the gentleman from New York concerning > folding boats, there are boats that are hard to roll by design hence, it > is > therefore possible that for these isolated cases, it is not productive to > push acquisition of rolling skills. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Zen [SMTP:canoeist_at_netbox.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 4:14 PM > > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan > > > > >>as Nigel Foster pointed out in Sea Kayaker some time ago, a roll is > > >>considered a basic skill in whitewater, so why not in sea kayaking? > > > > > >HMMMM. Now, if a roll is a basic skill in kayaking then what about > > >canoeing? > > > > rolling is an advanced skill... under 10% can roll in a pool, less than > > 5% under combat conditions, at least that's my observation of a 250-300+ > > member club. > > > > mark > > > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- > > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > > po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ > > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] > > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > > #-Fortune: > > "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" > > -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems > > > > "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" > > -- Dave Livigni > > > > > ************************************************************************** > > * > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > > ************************************************************************** > > * > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, I have time to jump in here today! I go along with the "demystify" the roll theory. I like to present it as just another stroke, and when giving a demonstration will present say, the low brace, high brace, sweep strokes, discuss the hip snap at some point and then point out that many of these strokes can be considered a progression towards a roll. I'll demonstrate the c-to-c and ask people to watch for commonalities...... I actually think that getting a roll helps towards getting good boat control. Andree | Hurley Design Communications-Web Site Creation and Implementation | | Bainbridge Island, ahurley_at_viewit.com -> http://www.viewit.com/HDC/| | New: http://www.canoekayak.com/ - http://www.goanimal.com/ | | http://www.claimsmag.com - http://www.viewit.com/OIWC/ | http://www.viewit.com/wtr/kayak.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:49 PM 12/16/98 -0500, Andree Hurley wrote: >I go along with the "demystify" the roll theory. I like to present it as >just another stroke, and when giving a demonstration will present say, the >low brace, high brace, sweep strokes, discuss the hip snap at some point >and then point out that many of these strokes can be considered a >progression towards a roll. I'll demonstrate the c-to-c and ask people to >watch for commonalities...... > >I actually think that getting a roll helps towards getting good boat >control. > >Andree > Andree, I agree wholeheartedly. This point is vividly supported by seeing Maligiaq Padilla or other Greenland native paddlers on videos maneuvering their sea kayaks through all levels of bracing and rolling. Body and paddle control become boat control, and the roll is clearly an extension of bracing. Keep on rollin' John Somers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/16/98 10:37:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << Clearly, only very serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people tend to become (or already are) advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak rolling by construction an advanced technique. >> Wow, I'm advanced! Cool! But I'm not sure I buy the assumption, Tim. In fact, the desire to learn to roll may also be regional. In the general area around Annapolis, the Chesapeake Paddlers Association informal groups spend a lot of time working with members who are interested --- which works out to be most members --- in establishing some sort of roll, not because it's a CYA maneuver but 'cause it's fun and because it helps improve other skills and it builds a lot of self-confidence. We have a few people who seem to be able to help <anyone> learn to roll, and we don't make it a big thing. We figure anyone who wants to learn <can> learn. It's not a peer pressure thing at all --- the non- rollers see the rollers having fun while they have to work at their assisted and unassisted rescues --- which the CPA <does> stress as a basic requirement --- and most figure it's a good deal and learn to roll. There's little mystique in a roll where most people can do it, so they just decide to learn. No biggie. These are newbies and folks with a year or two worth of experience. It's part of a game, and we learn 'cause it's fun. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:25 PM 12/16/98 -0500, Michael Daly wrote: Learning to roll allowed me to learn extended bracing >more easily. Put me on the side that says you should learn to roll >early in your paddling career and use it to extend your learning >experiences. > Learning to roll is like taking the training wheels off! Once you have a way back up without leaving your boat you have the confidence to begin learning other things, like extended bracing, sculling, etc. Greg Welker Current Designs Pisces CLC Cape Charles Modified West Wight Potter P-19 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/16/98 11:54:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, gwelker_at_erols.com writes: << Learning to roll is like taking the training wheels off! Once you have a way back up without leaving your boat you have the confidence to begin learning other things, like extended bracing, sculling, etc. >> Within the CPA, at least, we also feel that most of us learn to roll so we won't have to. As Greg notes, it opens you up to so many more paddling experiences. That's what happens when you demystify the idea of rolling. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/16/98 11:07:08 AM EST, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << Given that rolling a sea kayak is no harder than rolling a white water boat (except when the sea kayak fits too loosely in which case they can be a bit harder to roll), there is no reason rolling can't be a basic skill in sea kayaking as well. >> OF course Sea Kayaks are harder to roll. Or to put it differently they are less tolerant of sloppy technique and require a deliberate hip snap. I encourage people to practice rolling in their Sea kayak not a white water boat for this reason. White water paddlers tend to get narrower boats that feel more like a WW boat and roll easier. Other then this one point I agree with what said you. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote; >Kirby Stevens wrote: > >> IMO Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all for all. If one has to perform an Eskimo roll then they are doing something wrong. > >I roll to cool off on a hot day. This is wrong??? I think a more careful reading of Kirby's post would be in order. The key words "has to roll" qualify the statement. If you want to roll, good for you. Knock yourself out (figuratively speaking, of course) If you intentionally put yourself in a position that will probably cause you to have to roll then good for you again. Knock yourself out (figuratively speaking again, of course) If, on the other hand, you have to roll through some mistake on your part then Kirby has hit the mark. Now, some people may find their paddlintg lives incomplete unless they can do one-hundred and forty-three different rolls and I say, good for them. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, those who prefer paddling right side up are getting their kicks looking at the sky, waves, shoreline, paddling partners - those are nice - and maybe even doing their strokes all wrong. It drives paddling instructors right up the wall. Elsewhere some one said that "serious" paddlers rolled. Well, I guess I don't qualify. I patently refuse to roll and all those thousands of kilometres I spent paddling in open water and never once rolling or even capsizing were just a dilettante's mucking about in the serious paddler's rightful territory. There may be other people like me too. That old hacker Hannes Lindemann couldn't roll his kayak so I guess he wasn't serious. According to what I have read a lot of Inuit couldn't roll so I guess they weren't serious either. It just boggles the mind that so many people won't take sea kayaking seriously. Why, some serious paddlers even roll for relaxation. I have a friend in the swimming pool business who also paddles and he sells a rolling pool for serious kayakers (watch for his unabashedly commercial post here on Paddlewise soon). I would not doubt that some serious kayakers have logged more distance rotationally than translationally. And I say, good for them. When they go to meet their maker I know St. Pete will welcome them with open arms as good rollers and serious paddlers one and all. The rest of us will probably get stuck in purgatory paddling upright for eternity. Well, that might not be so bad. Maybe the whales will be in purgatory too. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Elsewhere some one said that "serious" paddlers rolled. Well, I guess I > don't qualify. I patently refuse to roll and all those thousands of > kilometres I spent paddling in open water and never once rolling or even > capsizing were just a dilettante's mucking about in the serious paddler's > rightful territory. There may be other people like me too. That old hacker > Hannes Lindemann couldn't roll his kayak so I guess he wasn't serious. > According to what I have read a lot of Inuit couldn't roll so I guess they > weren't serious either. It just boggles the mind that so many people won't > take sea kayaking seriously. To quote Bart Hauthaway, a fellow esteemed boat-builder like you, writing in Atlantic Coastal Kayaker back in 1992 "If you can't roll you aren't a kayaker. You can be an acceptable person, but you are not a kayaker." So, John, at least let us take comfort in knowing that we are "acceptable" persons which may be the nicest thing any one may have ever said about us! :-) Don't you just love it when individuals set standards for who should be considered a serious or true practicioner of some endeavor? It tends to be a definition that first and foremost fits them. I think I better go around saying that somebody who cannot make a folding kayak in less than 10 minutes may be a fine gentleman or gentlelady but he/she ain't no kayaker. :-) Thanks for writing this post and all the snipped parts as well. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There are plenty of scuba divers who have been diving for over 10 years, who have never practiced an out of air emergency, and have no experience buddy breathing. Yet, they consider themselves good divers, who have never had a mishap. There will always be plenty of these people, prepared for ideal conditions. Being GOOD at your sport, means being able to handle more than just, "IDEAL" conditions. Weather is NOT always predictable. If you don't learn to roll well, you can't say you are as "good" or as "safe" a paddler as your "evil twin", who has a bulletproof roll, but is otherwise identical to you. Either you will be restricted to less possible paddling days per year, you will need to stay closer to shore, or you will need to paddle a sit on top. Where am I wrong on this ? Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of John Winters Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:09 AM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: ACA meetings: Greenlan Michael Daly wrote; >Kirby Stevens wrote: > >> IMO Clearly everyone has missed the point, rolling is not the end all for all. If one has to perform an Eskimo roll then they are doing something wrong. > >I roll to cool off on a hot day. This is wrong??? I think a more careful reading of Kirby's post would be in order. The key words "has to roll" qualify the statement. If you want to roll, good for you. Knock yourself out (figuratively speaking, of course) If you intentionally put yourself in a position that will probably cause you to have to roll then good for you again. Knock yourself out (figuratively speaking again, of course) If, on the other hand, you have to roll through some mistake on your part then Kirby has hit the mark. Now, some people may find their paddlintg lives incomplete unless they can do one-hundred and forty-three different rolls and I say, good for them. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, those who prefer paddling right side up are getting their kicks looking at the sky, waves, shoreline, paddling partners - those are nice - and maybe even doing their strokes all wrong. It drives paddling instructors right up the wall. Elsewhere some one said that "serious" paddlers rolled. Well, I guess I don't qualify. I patently refuse to roll and all those thousands of kilometres I spent paddling in open water and never once rolling or even capsizing were just a dilettante's mucking about in the serious paddler's rightful territory. There may be other people like me too. That old hacker Hannes Lindemann couldn't roll his kayak so I guess he wasn't serious. According to what I have read a lot of Inuit couldn't roll so I guess they weren't serious either. It just boggles the mind that so many people won't take sea kayaking seriously. Why, some serious paddlers even roll for relaxation. I have a friend in the swimming pool business who also paddles and he sells a rolling pool for serious kayakers (watch for his unabashedly commercial post here on Paddlewise soon). I would not doubt that some serious kayakers have logged more distance rotationally than translationally. And I say, good for them. When they go to meet their maker I know St. Pete will welcome them with open arms as good rollers and serious paddlers one and all. The rest of us will probably get stuck in purgatory paddling upright for eternity. Well, that might not be so bad. Maybe the whales will be in purgatory too. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > I would not doubt that some serious kayakers have logged > more distance rotationally than translationally. And I say, good for them. > When they go to meet their maker I know St. Pete will welcome them with > open arms as good rollers and serious paddlers one and all. At that point, wouldn't they be described as Holy Rollers? Not to be confused with Hully Rollers, of course. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Don't you just love it when individuals set standards for who > should be considered a serious or true practicioner of some > endeavor? It tends to be a definition that first and foremost > fits them. Now wait a minute guys -- you're putting words in my mouth and turning me into some sort of stuck up monster. I appologize for bringing this up on the list, but given that many people out there only know me from these postings, I must jump to my defence. What I said was: "Only serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these people tend to become or already are advanced paddlers. This makes sea kayak rolling by construction an advanced technique". I then went on to explain that in my opinion this was unfortunate and that rolling didin't need to be viewed as an advanced technique. How can you possilby read that as implying that the only way to be a serious sea kayaker is if you learn how to roll? Read the statement!!! It doesn't say "ALL serious kayakers roll". I would NEVER suggest such a thing. I know many people who are VERY serious about their sea kayaking who don't know how to roll. Remember -- with email you don't get nuance of speach or body language. There is also a temporal disconnection between a statement and it replys. This means you must take pains to avoid reading more into a statement than is actually there. --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > Now wait a minute guys -- you're putting words in my mouth and turning me > into some sort of stuck up monster. I appologize for bringing this up on > the list, but given that many people out there only know me from these > postings, I must jump to my defence. > > What I said was: > > "Only serious sea kayakers learn to roll -- and these > people tend to become or already are advanced paddlers. > This makes sea kayak rolling by construction an advanced > technique". > > I then went on to explain that in my opinion this was unfortunate and that > rolling didin't need to be viewed as an advanced technique. > > How can you possilby read that as implying that the only way to be a serious > sea kayaker is if you learn how to roll? Read the statement!!! It doesn't > say "ALL serious kayakers roll". I would NEVER suggest such a thing. I > know many people who are VERY serious about their sea kayaking who don't > know how to roll. > > Remember -- with email you don't get nuance of speach or body language. > There is also a temporal disconnection between a statement and it replys. > This means you must take pains to avoid reading more into a statement than > is actually there. You are absolutely right. I was picking up on John's take and adding a statement from someone else of about 6 years ago. Lumping these together, I came up with mine, which understandably you have reason to object to. So please accept my apologies. However, I see that John's statement, probably more than mine, brought out some other points of objection by Dan Volker: Dan Volker wrote: > > There are plenty of scuba divers who have been diving for over 10 years, who > have never practiced an out of air emergency, and have no experience buddy > breathing. Yet, they consider themselves good divers, who have never had a > mishap. > > There will always be plenty of these people, prepared for ideal conditions. > > Being GOOD at your sport, means being able to handle more than just, > "IDEAL" conditions. > > Weather is NOT always predictable. If you don't learn to roll well, you > can't say you are as "good" or as "safe" a paddler as your "evil twin", who > has a bulletproof roll, but is otherwise identical to you. Either you will > be restricted to less possible paddling days per year, you will need to stay > closer to shore, or you will need to paddle a sit on top. > > Where am I wrong on this ? > I dunno. If you add a folding kayak to that last paragraph on choices, it sounds okay to me! :-) ralph ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
---------- > From: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net> --snip-- > I have a friend in the > swimming pool business who also paddles and he sells a rolling pool for > serious kayakers (watch for his unabashedly commercial post here on > Paddlewise soon). --snip-- Rolling pool? My marathon C1 was squished by one. I was heaving an empty hot-tub over a fence. It got away from me, and rolled right over my poor boat. I think I'll pass on rolling pools. Richard Culpeper Ring-ding-ding, ring-a-ling-a-ding-ding. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/17/98 9:52:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << Don't you just love it when individuals set standards for who should be considered a serious or true practicioner of some endeavor? >> He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; (SNIP) > >Rolling pool? My marathon C1 was squished by one. I was heaving an empty >hot-tub over a fence. It got away from me, and rolled right over my poor >boat. I think I'll pass on rolling pools. That's what you get for stealing the cheap versions without brakes. Whenever I am stealing a rolling pool I check for the CSA or UL sticker that certifies that proper brakes were installed. Not sure whether the people who steal rolling pools are Holy Rollers or not, Steve. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; >To quote Bart Hauthaway, a fellow esteemed boat-builder like you, >writing in Atlantic Coastal Kayaker back in 1992 "If you can't roll you >aren't a kayaker. You can be an acceptable person, but you are not a >kayaker." > >So, John, at least let us take comfort in knowing that we are >"acceptable" persons which may be the nicest thing any one may have ever >said about us! :-) Flattery will get Bart anywhere. > >Don't you just love it when individuals set standards for who should be >considered a serious or true practicioner of some endeavor? It tends to >be a definition that first and foremost fits them. I think I better go >around saying that somebody who cannot make a folding kayak in less than >10 minutes may be a fine gentleman or gentlelady but he/she ain't no >kayaker. :-) Hey, I can live with that. We need standards. In fact, it bothers me that nowhere in the ACA or BCU curriculum do they have time set aside for teaching how to assemble a folding boat. This kind of bias should not be condoned. I suggest we go one step further. If you don't own at least one folding kayak you are not a serious paddler. :-) This kind of thing is fun. If we add some more restrictions we can prove once and for all that there is no such thing as a serious paddler and ask the Coast Guard to step in and require mandatory boat assembly courses. How many Inuit ever assembled a foldingf kayak? Bet not many. Just a bunch of amateurs. Probably used those skiny paddles that made rolling so easy. real paddlers sue those wide paddles that make rolling harder. Shame on you Ralph. You know better than to set me off. :-) I hope no one gets offended. I am really just kidding around. Well, maybe just a little. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I suggest we go one step further. If you don't own at least one folding > kayak you are not a serious paddler. :-) > Does it count if the kayak didn't start life as a folder, but does now? Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I suggest we go one step further. If you don't own at least one folding > kayak you are not a serious paddler. :-) Actually there should be levels of seriousness. Paddlers would be awarded AKA Fingers which would be akin to the BCU Star system. The AKA stands for the Assembling Kayak Association. One Finger goes for proficiency in assembling a Klepper and Folbots, the lowest level. Two Fingers for assembling Nautiraid and Feathercrafts. Three Fingers is a level of proficiency not yet reached by any kayaker...the AKA does not want any paddler to get too cocky. AKA insists that in speaking of the awards that no one say that a paddler is "being given the Finger" as that terminology could be misconstrued. :-) > How > many Inuit ever assembled a folding kayak? Bet not many. Actually, in a sense many did so every year. My understanding is that in some parts of the Inuit world, they would be forced to knock down their boats during the Winter lest the sled dogs eat the skins or chew on the sinewy stuff holding frame pieces together. They buried the skins or used them for other purposes with the intention of sewing new ones in the Spring. And they might also break the frame down to a degree for more effective burying against the paws of hungry dogs or for compact storage inside igloos. So, you see Inuit kayaks _were_ folding kayaks. The Brits and their followers in the modern kayaking community just refuse to recognize this. :-) > Shame on you Ralph. You know better than to set me off. :-) I must make a confession here. When I was growing up in a Spanish-speaking household, I was often called a "sinverguenza" by my family. The term "sin verguenza" means "without shame." Sometimes "mal criado" was added, which is Spanish for "badly raised." Having both said in the same breath as in "sinverguenza y mal criado" was to shamelessness what a BCU 5 Star award is to kayaking. :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Actually there should be levels of seriousness. Paddlers would be > awarded AKA Fingers which would be akin to the BCU Star system. The AKA > stands for the Assembling Kayak Association. One Finger goes for > proficiency in assembling a Klepper and Folbots, the lowest level. Two > Fingers for assembling Nautiraid and Feathercrafts. Three Fingers is a > level of proficiency not yet reached by any kayaker... Makes sense to me. People who assemble folding kayaks have been in danger of _losing_ fingers for years. I've never actually lost any, but I've gotten a few good pinches. Now they have a chance to get some back. Steve (sinverguenza y mal criado) -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote; > >> I suggest we go one step further. If you don't own at least one folding >> kayak you are not a serious paddler. :-) >> > >Does it count if the kayak didn't start life as a folder, but does now? Ralph has more expertise in folders and I would defer to his judgement. See his comments on folding Inuit. Ralph also wrote; (SNIP) . >I must make a confession here. When I was growing up in a >Spanish-speaking household, I was often called a "sinverguenza" by my >family. The term "sin verguenza" means "without shame." Sometimes >"mal criado" was added, which is Spanish for "badly raised." Having >both said in the same breath as in "sinverguenza y mal criado" was to >shamelessness what a BCU 5 Star award is to kayaking. :-) I knew you must be descended from royalty. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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