This is responce to Julio's post about Costco and REI selling sea kayaks and retaier responsibility. Last year the REI Flagship stores in Seattle and Bloomington, Minnesota, started sea kayak instruction programs for persons who buy sea kayaks. They both offer a free three hour American Canoe Association certified class for any one buying a new sea kayak. Other one day and weekend classes are offered also in addition to the monthly free clinics that offer information about the safety issues involved with sea kayaking. At the end of the ACA courses the instructors give out course cards to the student so that they can rent sea kayaks from the other groups that have responsibility with sea kayaking, Outfitters. An informed group of sea kayak users will keep the incident rates down, Don Dimond *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/3/99 7:26:19 PM, juliom_at_cisco.com writes: << Ken Star >> Course, if he's not available, they could hire Ken Starr;-) Scott Checkin the dictiionary just south of Tavernier *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Has anyone seen the kayaks that are being carried by Costco? > I am worried that this might lead to problems >with total novices buying an advanced kayak with no instruction or >practical information. When we buy kayaks from kayak stores, the >salespeople always give out information on required sagety gear and stress >the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we >take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be >able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that >Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the >wrong direction? It's not just Costco. BJ's is another such club in the NJ area and they're selling a small sit-on-top called a "Jazz" which comes with one of those sevylor plastic paddles. They do sell pfds also, but they're way over in another part of the store. You can probably find all kinds of stores selling such boats. Fishing tackle stores sell canoes, nowadays some keowee type kayaks; so does Sear, Sports Authority, and so on. I don't think that any of these will have given any safety info. --And they've been doing it for years. So no, I don't think that this will skew the fatality rates to any degree. It is true, though, that there are many paddling fatalities caused by lack of knowledge. How many times have you read of a sea kayaker drowning? The news article always reports the stunned survivors saying they couldn't understand it, he was an expert paddler, been doing it for ten years. Or, he was an expert swimmer, we can't understand what went wrong. And yet, it's also true that these same people are unknown to paddling clubs or organized paddlers. They did something that we all know better about. Here in NJ we had a spate of drownings due to such things as running low head dams; not wearing a pfd; not knowing what to do with a strainer; inadequate cold weather protection. .. and so on. It was just invincible ignorance. About the only thing I can think of to offset this is to get the message across... but how? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Joe Pylka" <pylka_at_castle.net> To: "K. Whilden" <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu>, <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks Date sent: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:56:47 -0500 > ... About the only thing I can think of to offset this is to get the > message across... but how? Exactly what we wrestled with when we decided to do a "newbies" workshop for our area, Joe. How do you get the word out to all these "newbies"? (We have one medium sized "outdoors" shop in Annapolis that sold about 300 kayaks last year! Most were "entry level", and some will get used once and then put away. But some will be used by people, and many of these folks will not see the need to acquire any training.) You need to act locally. You need to organize your local paddling groups to provide an outreach to those who need training in at least the basics --- and not just operational info: you need to get across the concept of risk management and the importance of group and <individual> responsibility for safety. The Chesapeake Paddlers Association (CPA) will be hosting a workshop in April, and the plans are just coming together now. If you want to leverage on what we're doing in our area for the "newbies", let me know, and I'll send you information on what we're doing as we're doing it. No copyrights here --- just info, and the more it gets out, the better we, as paddlers, will be. If there are other paddling groups out there that you're part of and you're doing the same thing, please share the gouge! We all benefit from things like this. I don't know if we have a moral obligation to share information with newer paddlers, but I'm driven by the realization that I, personally, do have an obligation to others newer to the sport than I am. It takes time and effort, but, from experience, it's worth it! Pass the gouge, please! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> Kevin wrote: >> the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we >> take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be >> able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that >> Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the >> wrong direction? > > and Julio wrote: > The same applies to REI selling Sea Kayaks, and paddling equipment > in general for that matter. I think generalization of this nature can be dangerous as well. I actually got my initial baptism to kayaking through a 2 day coastal sea kayaking course offer through none other than REI. The instructor, who happens to be one of the members of this list, provided an excellent class that included paddling strokes, navigation, safety, equipment and both self and group rescue. I think maybe our new Governor sums it up well when he says, "you can't legislate against stupidity". People have the money, they'll buy the boats somewhere, they need to exercise the good judgement to learn how to use them. Clubs and retail organizations should play a role in providing that education, but if the boat owner who chooses to pass on those opportunities then they run the self imposed risk of becoming part of the natural selection process. Cold hearted, cold toes and cold hands Minnesotan. JW *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:23:38 Jack Martin wrote: >Not trying to provoke an argument here, but I think that the >manufacturers and retailers would be hard pressed to stay in >business if they also were responsible for all the dumb things we >do with our boats. My tired thoughts. Except, at least in the US, the current trend is to hold the manufacturers responsible for the idiotic or even illegal use of their product. Witness the recent gun lawsuits. It doesn't matter that the product was used illegally and not following the manufacturers instructions. People still want to hold them responsible. When tobacco got sued nobody cared. But now that it is spreading to other products the manufacturers are starting to get worried. The fear now is that this type of lawsuit will be used to sue any and all products manufactured in the US. IIRC, the auto industry is one of the manufacturers worried now. I hope you all like driving Geo Metros with a top speed of 60 mph... Mel --- There are three types of people, those who can count and those who can't. -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:26 PM 3/4/1999 -0000, Mel Grindol wrote: [snip stuff about products liability suits] IIRC, the auto industry is one of the manufacturers worried now. I hope you all like driving Geo Metros with a top speed of 60 mph... > >Mel [snip] A vile slander. My Geo Metro drives comfortably at 70 so long as I am alone. And I can put a kayak on top, too. Ron Johnson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I can understand Kevin's worry about potential safety risks when uninformed people buy inexpensive kayaks at a discount chain. I'm less sure that "uninformed people" equates with "irresponsible people". (Kevin didn't use those words. They are my words.) Irresponsible boaters scare the pants off me. Just within this week, the following: (1)A prominent local boater was bragging to me recently about the new GPS-controlled navigation system on his power boat. He can set the thing and then go below and fix drinks, or prepare lunch Doesn't even have to look where he's going. Wonderful..... (2)I had a phone call from a Cornell professor last night. He wanted to borrow a kayak for his research on pollution in local headwater streams (which are now at spring flood levels with water temps in the mid-30s F). He's planning go paddle alone "90% of the time" though he's never paddled a kayak before. He's planning to wear "chest waders and a heavy sweatshirt". Each of these guys has two homes and a power boat. I doubt that either of them has ever stepped inside a Costco store. There's a tendency to think that those of us who have more education and/or more financial reserves are also more intelligent and more responsible. That's a dangerous generality. Plenty of irresponsible people have plenty of money to spend. Plenty of thoughtless people have advanced degrees in one thing or another. Plenty of folks with very limited means are more intelligent and more thoughful than those with PhD or CEO after their names. Some people of limited means need to start where they can start - but then go on to learn about the sea, about safety, and about technique. I say give 'em a chance. Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
(We have one medium sized "outdoors" shop in Annapolis that sold about 300 kayaks last year! Most were "entry level", and some will get used once and then put away. But some will be used by people, and many of these folks will not see the need to acquire any training.) What I'm doing in this area is a short (30-45 mins) equipment and slide presentation available to scout groups, retail stores, outdoor clubs that don't emphasize paddling, etc. It covers some basic ideas about lowhead dams, hypothermia, pfds, some rudimentary water reading, etc and enough other things to maintain their interest. I usually get a positive response from the viewers--- but I'd also gotten a really negative response from one scoutmaster who viewed pfds as training bras and none of HIS boys would have to wear one, they were better than that. Invincible ignorance, you see. >>You need to act locally. You need to organize your local paddling groups to provide an outreach to those who need training in at least the basics --- and not just operational info: you need to get across the concept of risk management and the importance of group and <individual> responsibility for safety. <<<<<< Now these we do to some extent here.... but they go over much better with organized paddling groups. In this area we have such organizations as the National Canoe Safety Patrol whose members are also part of the clubs here. So this message gets across very easily here. But as you pointed out, it's the non-members who are at risk. >>>>>>The Chesapeake Paddlers Association (CPA) will be hosting a workshop in April, and the plans are just coming together now. If you want to leverage on what we're doing in our area for the "newbies", let me know, and I'll send you information on what we're doing as we're doing it. No copyrights here --- just info, and the more it gets out, the better we, as paddlers, will be.<<<<<<< I should mention I'm Vice Chair of the Delaware Valley Division of the ACA. We will be hosting the Round Valley Roundup in late May here in NJ. This is a camping weekend of instruction, workshops, swaps, trips, maybe some vendors. This is the second year we're doing it and we're going to be publicizing it as widely as we can so as to reach the casual paddler. Last year we were fortunate to have a scout camporee going on next door so we invited them over for demos (and that slide show above). I think we did well on that... >>>>>>>I don't know if we have a moral obligation to share information with newer paddlers, but I'm driven by the realization that I, personally, do have an obligation to others newer to the sport than I am. It takes time and effort, but, from experience, it's worth it!<<<<<< I am always happy to see someone with that attitude, and I must say that I see more reaching out and helping among paddlers than I do from many other outdoor groups. No, we don't have a moral obligation to share info; in fact I know of a few horrified insurance agents who see only the potential litigation in that..... Nonetheless any death diminishes us, and the (uninformed) response of the powers-that-be is often to restrict access or activities. So we do have a stake in this. Joe Pylka *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: REI rented a bunch of sea kayaks to some "newbies" on a "beginner" trip which we in the Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) ran a few years back, and sent the rentals out without paddle floats. As a backup trip leader, I was pissed, told REI about it in a letter, and got a very positive letter back from the area VP, totally agreeing that they should provide floats, and pledging to do so from then on. People learn. Not trying to provoke an argument here, but I think that the manufacturers and retailers would be hard pressed to stay in business if they also were responsible for all the dumb things we do with our boats. My tired thoughts. I have to agree with everything you said. I also tend to follow the view that people are responsible for their own actions, how very un-American of us. Playing Devils advocate here though. There are already a lot of people who get into organized kayak events, tours and such, without realizing the dangers, and many operators don't emphasize them. To reinforce this even further, people don't believe that something they buy at Costco is going to hurt them. If it ain't regulated then it ain't dangerous. This is a sport where a novice can get in the boat, paddle twenty yards, flip, and die waiting to pop back to the surface like the people on TV, (December Sea Kayaker, she was rescued though). I think, (and I emphasize that this is my unscientific opinion, not backed up by any hard facts), that one reason there are so few, relatively, kayak fatalities has been the relative difficulty of acquiring the gear. It is likely that Costco carrying kayaks will lead to more unprepared paddlers on the water. That will lead to more accidents. At a certain critical mass, usually when there is enough for a good new story, people will take notice. There will be talk of regulation, safety issues and the dangers of paddling. That is when most of the Costco crowd will take notice. Or, they will survive their novice *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >Irresponsible boaters scare the pants off me. Just within this week, the >following: (1)A prominent local boater was bragging to me recently about the >new GPS-controlled navigation system on his power boat. He can set the thing >and then go below and fix drinks, or prepare lunch Doesn't even have to look >where he's going. Wonderful..... A few years ago exactly this happened in NJ! Someone set his LORAN to retrace his route out then proceeded to make drinks (lots) for everyone on board. At night. Crashed straight into the channel jetty. > >There's a tendency to think that those of us who have more education and/or >more financial reserves are also more intelligent and more responsible. That's >a dangerous generality. Plenty of irresponsible people have plenty of money to >spend. Plenty of thoughtless people have advanced degrees in one thing or >another. Plenty of folks with very limited means are more intelligent and more >thoughful than those with PhD or CEO after their names. I've noticed this. On the one hand many people think that paddling a boat is an instinctive skill so they never think ahead. On the other, this litigious society of ours removes any sense of responsibility from ourselves. For that reason also, people might not think ahead. Given a likely assertive personality as PhD or CEO and maybe that's facilitated. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Exactly what we wrestled with when we decided to do a "newbies" workshop for our area, Joe. How do you get the word out to all these "newbies"? (We have one medium sized "outdoors" shop in ------------ I certainly have no experience in this area. I would suspect, however, that you would have to work with the local paddle/outdoor shops in getting the mesaage out. If you have a brouchre or newsletter listing the type of classes and instruction you offer and/or some of the dangers of inexperience, I'm sure (I hope) the shops would be happy to hand them out to customers or have a little display on a counter somewhere. Seems to me the most you can ask of a shop is to make the customer aware of the need for instruction and where they can get it locally. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I think that there is a self-policing aspect to all this. People are naturally a bit awestruck/fearful of large expanses of water and, for the most part, are not likely to venture out into blight conditions. They will pick calm days and keep close to shore. I think the deadly part comes from a disregard for wearing PFDs, it does look sissy-like, and the dangers of early Spring when the air is at 70F degrees while water temperatures are still below 50F degrees, a combination froth with woe. I think it was Jack M. who mentioned his group's being pissed at REI for renting boats without paddle floats to newbies. It brings up two observations: 1. What good would come from a newbie having a paddlefloat he/she did not know how to use? 2. I would say a goodly number of the individuals that I have run across who have paddle floats, have never practiced even once with them. It was a suggested piece of safety equipment. They bought one and dutifully carry it. They may have seen some illustrations in an instruction book and said "Oh, so that is all there is to it." ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It is my understanding that the real money in retailing kayaks is in the the ancillary equipment and accessories. The retail profit in a plastic kayak is not that great but if the accomplished retailer can add in: pfd, spray skirt, pump, compass, whistle, paddle float, roof racks, wet suit, spray jacket, sun hat, tow rope, gps, vhf, graphite paddle, spare paddle, water bottle, water shoes, a couple of how to books and maybe sponsons that's where the real money is. Hal Wilton, NH Power your boat with carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All! Here's a little tidbit for your consideration. Last year, M'lady and I purchased a lovely Navarro (flatwater family boat!) canoe from REI. Had to sign a disclaimer form before we could leave the store with it. OK, fine. So howcum I can go to the same store and buy a new climbing rope, shoes, and assorted hardware and no one blinks an eye? D'you suppose that means that REI's lawyers consider a canoe to be potentially more dangerous in inexperienced hands than rock gear? Hmmmm. Inquiring minds, and all of that . . . S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com Date sent: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:53:25 -0800 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks > I think it was Jack M. who mentioned his group's being pissed at REI for > renting boats without paddle floats to newbies. It brings up two > observations: > > 1. What good would come from a newbie having a paddlefloat he/she did > not know how to use? > > 2. I would say a goodly number of the individuals that I have run > across who have paddle floats, have never practiced even once with > them. It was a suggested piece of safety equipment. They bought one > and dutifully carry it. They may have seen some illustrations in an > instruction book and said "Oh, so that is all there is to it." > Yeah, Ralph, that was me, and this was a "trip" for brand "newbies" --- first time on the water. What we <thought> we were going to do with was to review wet exits, safety procedures, and the start of self-rescues. Standard stuff with "newbies" in the CPA, anyway. 'Course, that was kinda hard if they didn't have --- or have any idea about --- paddle floats. What followed was the letter business, and REI's total understanding and willing support of our concerns. They included paddle floats with their rentals from there on out. But your point is taken: I wonder if anybody told them what they were or why they got them with the boat? "Y'mean these things can turn over?!" Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Sisler, Clyde" <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks Date sent: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:13:21 -0500 > I would suspect, however, that > you would have to work with the local paddle/outdoor shops in getting the > mesaage out. If you have a brouchre or newsletter listing the type of > classes and instruction you offer and/or some of the dangers of > inexperience, I'm sure (I hope) the shops would be happy to hand them out to > customers or have a little display on a counter somewhere. Exactly, Clyde. The majority of the candidates for this "newbies" workshop aren't yet reading the newsletters or joining the listservers. But the retailers in our area bend over backwards to help us get the word out to their buyers about clinics like this. It's in their best interest, as well. The REIs and EMSs of this area work interactively with us when we run clinics, as do the local places like SpringRiver. > Seems to me the most you can ask of a shop is to make the customer aware of > the need for instruction and where they can get it locally. I'd like to think you're right, Clyde, but the lawyers seem to feel they can still hold the manufacturer responsible, and they get away with it. The "deep pockets" rule normally applies --- follow the money. Hence the "six" protection in the form of disclaimers. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I certainly have no experience in this area. I would suspect, however, that >you would have to work with the local paddle/outdoor shops in getting the >mesaage out. If you have a brouchre or newsletter listing the type of >classes and instruction you offer and/or some of the dangers of >inexperience, I'm sure (I hope) the shops would be happy to hand them out to >customers or have a little display on a counter somewhere. We're fortunate in this area that some outdoors stores run "workshops" on some weekday evenings in hiking, cycling, mountaineering, etc. Usually it's their own personnel but they're happy to have outside resources. Often they are located in malls, so many people will see the promos or drop in on a whim. In one instance that I'm working on, the store is small, so we'll see if we can come up with some space elsewhere for that one..... Not all stores are receptive, though. One absolutely refuses to do anything at all, not even allow posters or brochures. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There certainly seems to be a lot of discussion surrounding Costco. I think all of the opinions are valid but the bottom line for most people is cost. Anyone who may read a book, talk to a few experienced paddlers will understand that , like driving a car, there are certain things you should know before venturing out to the sea. But cost will drive most peoples decision. There is already a huge market for used kayaks to support this. In Canada, the Canadian Coast has frequently referred to a boat licensing program where anyone buying a boat must become boatwise. I suspect this would be one response to , if it happened, increased boating incidents as a result of COstco and others selling kayaks. ON the other had, many recreational groups, like the ACA, the Canadian Recreational Canoe Association and others can through government subsidies educate the public, supply material for the general public , and just increase public awareness about the safety issues if things get out of hand. If may mean a few people die but government works best, i've found, when it operates in crisis mode; ie, something gets done. In the end the big boys, like Costco, will see the money in recreational products and want a piece of the pie. Kayak manufacturers will want to survive and if their product is being sold then it ensures their livlihood and they can always claim the customer is getting "more value for their dollar" . I am concerned as everyone else about the safety of the individual. However, by myself it is futile to believe my concerns are shared by everyone else not already paddling. -----Original Message----- From: Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> To: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks >> Kevin wrote: >> the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we >> take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be >> able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that >> Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the >> wrong direction? > >The same applies to REI selling Sea Kayaks, and paddling equipment >in general for that matter. >But we can not tell Costco nor REI not to sell kayaks, as much as >we can tell them not to sell bycicles. > >In the USA it is just a matter of them getting sued after several hundreds >of people die. Then, REI, Costsco, and others would hire Ken Star to >defend them and convince the judge that the value of a boaters life >is not high enough to justify any effort in educating the public; just >like he did for Chrysler in the gas tank issue. > >After all, why should buying a sea kayak be more difficult than buying a gun? > >- Julio > >p.s. Should we bring up the certification issue again? >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to newcomers to help them find good used boats. My racing surfski would be $1500 new ( Venture Sport Dolphin) but used in good shape it would sell for 600 or $700, and blow the doors off the shit boats made like plastic milk jugs and sold by Cosco type opportunists. These people know they are selling junk, but count on the consumer being to stupid to know any better. They will count on the low price eroding away any chance of the potential buyer educating themselves. Cosco's are great for buying 7 dozen eggs at a time, or enough oatmeal to last you a month, but NO one should buy any REAL sports equipment through them ( this excludes pretend-a-sports like bowling, golf, and horse shoes :-) Used boats are NOT hard to find, but newcomers don't realize this is the more desirable option. When a person takes up a sport like snow skiing, cycling, mountain biking, rollerblading, scuba diving, freediving, OR kayaking..., bad gear will help prevent them from ever experiencing what we experience in these sports, and contribute heavily toward their falling out of each of these activities, soon after they began. Someone should spend the time to put up a website for quality used gear - (kayaks, road bikes, canoes, anything that is expensive new, is still good a year later, but no longer nearly as expensive( bikes and kayaks for sure)) If anyone knows of such a site, I'd like to know about it, and we should all do our part to help people use it. Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of toki Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 10:53 AM To: Julio MacWilliams; K. Whilden Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks There certainly seems to be a lot of discussion surrounding Costco. I think all of the opinions are valid but the bottom line for most people is cost. Anyone who may read a book, talk to a few experienced paddlers will understand that , like driving a car, there are certain things you should know before venturing out to the sea. But cost will drive most peoples decision. There is already a huge market for used kayaks to support this. In Canada, the Canadian Coast has frequently referred to a boat licensing program where anyone buying a boat must become boatwise. I suspect this would be one response to , if it happened, increased boating incidents as a result of COstco and others selling kayaks. ON the other had, many recreational groups, like the ACA, the Canadian Recreational Canoe Association and others can through government subsidies educate the public, supply material for the general public , and just increase public awareness about the safety issues if things get out of hand. If may mean a few people die but government works best, i've found, when it operates in crisis mode; ie, something gets done. In the end the big boys, like Costco, will see the money in recreational products and want a piece of the pie. Kayak manufacturers will want to survive and if their product is being sold then it ensures their livlihood and they can always claim the customer is getting "more value for their dollar" . I am concerned as everyone else about the safety of the individual. However, by myself it is futile to believe my concerns are shared by everyone else not already paddling. -----Original Message----- From: Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> To: K. Whilden <kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu> Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, March 03, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Costco selling kayaks >> Kevin wrote: >> the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we >> take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be >> able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that >> Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the >> wrong direction? > >The same applies to REI selling Sea Kayaks, and paddling equipment >in general for that matter. >But we can not tell Costco nor REI not to sell kayaks, as much as >we can tell them not to sell bycicles. > >In the USA it is just a matter of them getting sued after several hundreds >of people die. Then, REI, Costsco, and others would hire Ken Star to >defend them and convince the judge that the value of a boaters life >is not high enough to justify any effort in educating the public; just >like he did for Chrysler in the gas tank issue. > >After all, why should buying a sea kayak be more difficult than buying a gun? > >- Julio > >p.s. Should we bring up the certification issue again? >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker wrote: > > If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to > newcomers to help them find good used boats. > > Someone should spend the time to put up a website for quality used gear - > If anyone knows of such a site, I'd like to know about it, and we should all > do our part to help people use it. Someone did, Dale Brown at http://www.inlink.com/~dailu/intergear.html Nice site, unfortunately his ISP crashed a while back and he lost a lot of stuff. So far, it hasn't fully recovered, but he's put a lot of work into it, and it works well. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Volker wrote: "If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to newcomers to help them find good used boats." ---------------------------------------- As a beginner, I'm finding that the cost of accessories and training is more of a problem as buying a boat. For example: Drysuit: $300 (Gortex - $600) Paddle: $100 PFD: $ 80 Fleece: $100 Spray Skirt: $50 Booties: $35 Gloves: $20 ============== Total $685 - $985 Certainly the above list is not complete, and I suppose we could safely add in another $100 for hat, paddle float, whistle, wet suit for the summer, and miscellaneous other items. So the cost of accessories bumps up to $800 - $1100. That is, of course, if we don't buy top-of-the-line equipment. Now let's add some classes from a local kayak shop: Basic kayaking: $55 (assisted rescue) Intermediate kayaking: $55 (self-rescue) Braces and Rolls $40 ====================== Total $190 Now maybe we want to rent boats for a while in order to see what we like, and to get some more practice. Let's say that we do 10 rentals from a local shop, and that we use the boats in the river behind the shop, thus delaying the need to purchase a $200 roof rack: Daily rental $30 x 10 = $300 In summary: Accessories $800 to $1100 Classes $200 Rental $300 ==================== Approximate total: $1200 to $1500. Remember, at this point there isn't even a boat, and after all that expense you're basically a beginning paddler who can drive the boat more or less in the right direction, and who probably won't drown if you fall out of the boat. Now let's say that I choose not to purchase any accessories, but rent boats and accessories from a local kayak dealer: Daily rental (all equipment and boat) $45 x 10 = $450 Combined with the classes our total (without owning anything) is $650. But as soon as I purchased a boat, I'd still have to buy $800 of accessories. If I don't rent anything, but purchase boat, accessoring, and training, I spend about $2000 minimum. I could go on, but what's the point? It's expensive stuff, no matter how you look at it. Even if someone *gave* me a boat, I'd still spend $1000 just on accessories and classes. And all this just to do little day trips on the river. Is it any wonder why some people skimp on safety, when doing it right is so expensive? jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Holman wrote: > > Dan Volker wrote: > > "If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to > > newcomers to help them find good used boats." > As a beginner, I'm finding that the cost of accessories and training is > more of a problem than buying a boat. Jim makes a good case for this being an expensive sport, if done "right." Others have castigated various mass merchandisers for selling entry-level boats without the requisite "safety" warnings. Yet more have asserted that some mass merchandisers do make an effort to make boat purchasers aware of basic safety stuff. Finally, a small contingent allows that we should let the gene pool be improved, by seeing who survives. What's the answer? Something in the middle -- or, maybe -- in the muddle. There is no "right answer." There are lots of not-so-good ways to start, some more ideal than others. Some cheaper. My bottom line is to use good judgement. Meaning, ask around and see what works. Start slow and learn from those you paddle with. Every now and then, you will do something which in retrospect you will realize had a sizeable potential for disaster. That's how we learn. It's silly to beat up on Costco (REI, etc.). They are just a piece of the marketing spectrum, and 90% of those boats go to the lake and get used when it's warm and mellow. We can not "protect" everybody -- and we do NOT have the responsibility to make paddling 100% safe for everybody. We can't do that anyway. We CAN offer clinics and lessons and advice. We CAN serve as good role models. And that's the best we can do. How about we drop this thread? The problem is innately unsolvable and amorphous. I'm going overnight paddling this weekend so when I come back I'll be the kind of guy I'd like to be around. Grump. Grump. Grump. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Drysuit: $300 (Gortex - $600) > Paddle: $100 > PFD: $ 80 > Fleece: $100 > Spray Skirt: $50 > Booties: $35 > Gloves: $20 > ============== > Total $685 - $985 $80 for a PFD and $100 for warm fuzzies? $20 for gloves? me: PFD $25 (walmart), fuzzies $50 campmor on sale. gloves $10 discount bucket in REI. Besides who would pay $80 for a PFD and then only $100 on a paddle????????? My heavy wetsuit cost $100 used, got it on Ebay. So far it hasn't gotten cold enough for me to tolerate wearing it. > Now let's add some classes from a local kayak shop: > > Basic kayaking: $55 (assisted rescue) > Intermediate kayaking: $55 (self-rescue) > Braces and Rolls $40 Ok, lets think about this. I don't much care for "assisted rescue" anything. But lets talk the other two. Find pool or small hard bottom lake. Spend 4hours with your paddle float. Walla, self- rescue. Another day, spend 4hours figuring out how to stay in your boat when you tip over, wet exit intentionally, not by just falling out. Final day, spend 4 hours learning how to press your thighs, flip your hips, lean back, and lift the boat around with the paddle. [thats the way I think of it. works for me.] Once you can roll, you can practice bracing till your arms fall off. If after trying the above, you still can't roll, *THEN* break down and take lessons for that basic skill. What isn't listed on your instruction list, are also thing that you need an instructor for. Navigation. Rules of the Road. Current and winds. Weather forcasting. I learned rolling, bracing, surfing, etc on my own. They are physical skills that you can figure out with trial and error, and a few bruises and cuts. Rely on a controlled environment to make your physical skill learning adequately safe. But to practice managing current and winds, you need instruction ahead of time. Once you encounter current or strong wind, a failure means you might now be 20 miles offshore. Failure to navigate accurately and read charts properly could put you on top of a big oyster reef as the tide comes down, boat -> confetti. Or worse, how bout, failure to navigate puts you within a naval gunnery range, just as a bunch of ships come out to qualify their gunnery dudes on the 5" gun. You think your plastic kayak will show up on their radar??? Take the $200 and see if you can't find a community college course on general navigation. Any school with an NROTC program should also have them. > Now maybe we want to rent boats for a while in order to see what we like, > and to get some more practice. Let's say that we do 10 rentals from a > local shop, and that we use the boats in the river behind the shop, thus > delaying the need to purchase a $200 roof rack: > > Daily rental $30 x 10 = $300 > > In summary: > Accessories $800 to $1100 > Classes $200 > Rental $300 > ==================== > Approximate total: $1200 to $1500. Wait a bit here, you are assuming that your boat is a permanent asset. Your hull costs you an effective rental its total value divided by the number of days you take it out. If your hull is $1000 and you take it on a total of 50 days of paddling; thats still $20 of effective rental price. While paddlewise subscribers might be likely to get more than 50 days of paddling out of a typical hull; I doubt if *most* kayaks sold to beginners do so well. > Remember, at this point there isn't even a boat, and after all that > expense you're basically a beginning paddler who can drive the boat more > or less in the right direction, and who probably won't drown if you fall > out of the boat. Lets see, my first 4 outings in a kayak, were hourly rentals in a controlled, closed water, environment. I can swim the distance across the lake in question. Each cost me $10-$20. I took no classes. My next step was purchasing a kayak; the one I still have, FWIW.. Total for boat, skirt, paddle, pump, compass, rudder, paddlefloat was about $1500. I have since then bought another $500 worth of goodies, rod holders, anchors, better skirt, float bags, dry bags, drogue, bungie lines, cleats, lights, boxes, flares, etc. Sonar, GPS, diving and fishing gear are related in that I use them concurrently with the kayak; but they aren't central to the act of kayaking. > If I don't rent anything, but purchase boat, accessoring, and training, I > spend about $2000 minimum. > > I could go on, but what's the point? It's expensive stuff, no matter how > you look at it. Even if someone *gave* me a boat, I'd still spend $1000 > just on accessories and classes. And all this just to do little day > trips on the river. Is it any wonder why some people skimp on safety, when > doing it right is so expensive? $2000 for 50 days on the water is spectacularly cheap; as far as ocean going boats go. If you can get more than 50 days on the water for your boat, you'll do even better. I think if your complaining about cost, you've never seen how much a power boat costs per day on the water. Folks spend $10,000+ for a boat that they may spend as few as 5 or 6 days a year on the water. For a power boat that can brave all the conditions that a sea kayak can manage, its gonna be way more than $10,000.. If you want cheap, then forgoe all the harsh conditions that a sea kayak can manage, and get a coleman canoe, a single paddle, and a PFD. You can get there for under $400 easy. But you chose KAYAK, not an open, plastic canoe. Considering that you've chosen to spend an extra $1600+ on a paddlecraft; that tells me you are wanting a boat that can survive big surf and 30kt winds, it tells me you want to be able to be hit by the freak wave, thrown who knows how far, and be able to count to ten slowly, then roll up, no worse (but wetter) for the wear. This is why I shake my head in disbelief when I watch folks in $2500 18' fiberglass hulls putting around in flat, protected water, hugging the shore, going about 2.5kts. Their money I suppose, but dang it bugs me. So decide what you are buying. Are you buying a paddlecraft for putting putting around restricted, flat, back bays. Or are you buying a paddlecraft that is designed to challenge any sea state, limited only by the strength, endurance, cunning, and skill of the paddler. Then, expect to pay for what you are buying. Costo buyers are buying a coleman canoe that looks "hip". Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This thread is swiftly taking on the feel of the "Sponsons debate"-what it boils down to ,is that we need to take personal responsibility for what we do-- IE: if we buy a kayak-no matter where-take it out in the water- fall out and drown because we dont know what we are doing-- IT IS OUR FAULT- not the manufacturers-or the Vendors! I started paddling last year-- I bought a used tupperware boat-2 weeks after I bought it--I tipped over-wearing heavy sweat clothes--and couldnt get back in the boat{this is hard to admit}- I had no self rescue skills-- well things turned out ok-- I have learned paddlefoat re-entrys -and various self rescue techniques, all self taught in a variety of situations--my point on this being is.........If things had turned out badly--would it have been the fault of the person selling me the used kayak?? NO-- It would have been MY FAULT! nuff said -end of discussion. And as far as the comment about $2500 fiberglass boats paddling flat protected waters--most of the literature you read states that you should try and start with a "GOOD" boat-- one you wont grow out of quickly--and Bays flat rivers -and protected back waters are an ideal place to "Grow into " your boat! Well I am done ranting now- See ya on the water- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:50 PM 3/4/99 -0800, Jim Holman wrote: >Dan Volker wrote: >"If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to newcomers to >help them find good used boats." >I could go on, but what's the point? It's expensive stuff, no matter how you look >at it. Even if someone *gave* me a boat, I'd still spend $1000 just on >accessories and classes. And all this just to do little day trips on the river. >Is it any wonder why some people skimp on safety, when doing it right is so >expensive? > >jim > I guess people do not put much value in their life if they skimp on safety. It is like trying to get some one to wear a PFD. I tell them it is not for them it is for their family because if some thing happens and they die wearing one we can at least bring home the body instead of the family having to wait 2-7 days for the body to surface.It gets the point across. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Its not that hard to buy a good book on kayaking, learn about the capabilities of each type of boat and gear, then to buy a used boat. You will probably have to buy a new paddle if you want a wing paddle, which is certainly more sensible than spending money on an old fashioned, slow paddle. You can practice what you have read about on calm water, and develop reasonable skills after a few months. Then pay for the instruction to refine your technique, rather than buy a hand holding session for how to climb into a boat etc. If you are interested in trying a used boat, most people selling them will let you paddle them in calm water. This should interest you more than renting. You do NOT want a plastic boat. You want a fiberglass or composite boat. As for all the other accessory purchases, maybe you should move south where you don't need all the Antactic stuff :-) Regards, Dan Volker -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Jim Holman Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 11:51 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Cost of Kayaking ( was Costco) Dan Volker wrote: "If cost is the real driving force, then we have a responsibility to newcomers to help them find good used boats." ---------------------------------------- As a beginner, I'm finding that the cost of accessories and training is more of a problem as buying a boat. For example: Drysuit: $300 (Gortex - $600) Paddle: $100 PFD: $ 80 Fleece: $100 Spray Skirt: $50 Booties: $35 Gloves: $20 ============== Total $685 - $985 Certainly the above list is not complete, and I suppose we could safely add in another $100 for hat, paddle float, whistle, wet suit for the summer, and miscellaneous other items. So the cost of accessories bumps up to $800 - $1100. That is, of course, if we don't buy top-of-the-line equipment. Now let's add some classes from a local kayak shop: Basic kayaking: $55 (assisted rescue) Intermediate kayaking: $55 (self-rescue) Braces and Rolls $40 ====================== Total $190 Now maybe we want to rent boats for a while in order to see what we like, and to get some more practice. Let's say that we do 10 rentals from a local shop, and that we use the boats in the river behind the shop, thus delaying the need to purchase a $200 roof rack: Daily rental $30 x 10 = $300 In summary: Accessories $800 to $1100 Classes $200 Rental $300 ==================== Approximate total: $1200 to $1500. Remember, at this point there isn't even a boat, and after all that expense you're basically a beginning paddler who can drive the boat more or less in the right direction, and who probably won't drown if you fall out of the boat. Now let's say that I choose not to purchase any accessories, but rent boats and accessories from a local kayak dealer: Daily rental (all equipment and boat) $45 x 10 = $450 Combined with the classes our total (without owning anything) is $650. But as soon as I purchased a boat, I'd still have to buy $800 of accessories. If I don't rent anything, but purchase boat, accessoring, and training, I spend about $2000 minimum. I could go on, but what's the point? It's expensive stuff, no matter how you look at it. Even if someone *gave* me a boat, I'd still spend $1000 just on accessories and classes. And all this just to do little day trips on the river. Is it any wonder why some people skimp on safety, when doing it right is so expensive? jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 16:59 04-03-99 -0500, Ron Johnson <rfred_at_mindspring.com> wrote: >At 01:26 PM 3/4/1999 -0000, Mel Grindol wrote: >[snip stuff about products liability suits] IIRC, the auto industry is one >of the manufacturers worried now. I hope you all like driving Geo Metros >with a top speed of 60 mph... >> >>Mel >[snip] > >A vile slander. My Geo Metro drives comfortably at 70 so long as I am alone. > >And I can put a kayak on top, too. > >Ron Johnson and what does it drop to then ;-) mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Guess I'll jump in too...:) Maybe this sounds strange, but it seems to me that instead of following the course of "More Litigation means More Safety..." The government(s) might instead buy the rights for, "Deep Trouble"-Matt Broze & George Gronseth, print it as though it were a flyer or hand out, and make it illegal to sell a kayak or canoe without one. Short of that, it seems to me that, Costco should at the very least have a permanent supply of "Deep Trouble" for interested people to purchase. Why "Deep Trouble" one may ask? Because [IMHO] it places a very strong emphasis on facts of an accident, while also providing possible solutions to prevent a reoccurrence. It is clear and well written, concise enough to reach a broad audience... -A couple of cents worth... Tom... www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> If anyone knows of such a site, I'd like to know about it, and we should all >> do our part to help people use it. > >Someone did, Dale Brown at http://www.inlink.com/~dailu/intergear.html >Nice site, unfortunately his ISP crashed a while back and he lost a lot >of stuff. So far, it hasn't fully recovered, but he's put a lot of work >into it, and it works well. > >Steve Another one I ran across recently that deals with a broad array of outdoors stuff is http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/ A lot of stuff seems to get advertised there; it's sort of a brokerage house. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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