Bjorn indicates he understands that the Tiderace models will be available later on in small and/or LV versions. A lot of "LV" versions of kayaks these days are just cut down models from the bigger sibling. It will be interesting to see if that is the route Tiderace goes. http://www.thomassondesign.com:80/post.aspx?id=1168453724 Doug Lloyd (still mulling over his future ride, possibly a cut-down, new Nordkapp LV) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug and All, I took a look at that link. What I want to know is when kayak manufacturers are going to stop designing sea kayaks with so much stern rocker. I see stern rocker, and I see a weathercocking and broaching SOB with high a PO factor. It seems they are fine making their kayaks skeg or rudder dependent even for mild conditions. Is Mariner the only manufacturer to ever get it right? Duane Southern California Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: Bjorn indicates he understands that the Tiderace models will be available later on in small and/or LV versions. A lot of "LV" versions of kayaks these days are just cut down models from the bigger sibling. It will be interesting to see if that is the route Tiderace goes. http://www.thomassondesign.com:80/post.aspx?id=1168453724 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Doug and All, > > I took a look at that link. > > What I want to know is when kayak manufacturers are going to stop > designing sea kayaks with so much stern rocker. I see stern rocker, and I > see a weathercocking and broaching SOB with high a PO factor. It seems they > are fine making their kayaks skeg or rudder dependent even for mild > conditions. > > Is Mariner the only manufacturer to ever get it right? > I think the answer is "yes" to that question. And also the reason I have three Mariner kayaks. The mystery isn't so much why no one has copied Mariner's designs (lots have, the infamous Sportee being one) but that the kayaking public doesn't seem to be that interested in their ideas. At least the great majority of the public. The Coaster is practically a legend but maybe most kayakers don't think it would fit their style and aren't aware of the other models available. They only built 600-odd Coasters and finding one used is almost impossible (I finally got one but it's so beat up I'll have to take it to a pro to get it back into shape for what it was meant to do). In fact, there are stories about people trying to find Coasters and waiting years for one to turn upl. How can designs with that sort of presence be largely ignored? At the Pt. Townsend seminar I could easily spot a Mariner hull upside down in a gaggle of other designs simply by the hull shape. All the rest just looked alike inverted. I was amazed. The last hull Matt and Cam designed was in the early 1990s and they STILL stand out in a crowd. It would be different if the damned things didn't perform as advertised. Why wouldn't a major kayak manufacturer want to sell - or even license - a design that they don't have to compete with on the used market because they're so heavily in demand? Doug said he doesn't like their "esthetics"; maybe he can explain that. I'm sure he's paddled Mariners and certainly has a lot of experience paddling the sort of water Mariners (and the Coaster in particular) were designed to handle. Maybe Doug knows something you and I don't Perhaps the designs are just too radical even now. Designed to excel in the sort of kayaking that is only now becoming more popular. And perhaps no one believes the hype. I know I didn't until I paddled an Express in choppy water and felt it try to accelerate and surf every wave. As of this morning, two Mariners appeared on the Seattle craigslist (in "boats"); a Max and an XL. I wonder how long they'll last at $1200 each. The only Coaster that has appeared on any craigslist on the west coast (and trust me, I've been watching for them) was the one I bought 2 hours after the ad appeared. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a middle of the road paddle that has given good service for several years. It had been in a warehouse for the last year or so. When I picked it up the other day the blade was turning freely in the shaft. It appeared that it had been held in with some sort of adhesive or double sided tape that had dry rotted out. If anyone knows the correct way to repair this problem I would be greatly appreciative. Bud Turner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have a middle of the road paddle that has given good service for several > years. It had been in a warehouse for the last year or so. When I picked > it up the other day the blade was turning freely in the shaft. It appeared > that it had been held in with some sort of adhesive or double sided tape > that had dry rotted out. If anyone knows the correct way to repair this > problem I would be greatly appreciative. > > Bud Turner When the ferrules on my Bending Branches paddles came loose, I simply used epoxy to put them back on again. I used on the quick-dry two- part epoxy that I picked up at the local hardware store. I sanded the wood paddle shafts clean of the old "glue", and lightly sanded the inside of the ferrules as well. Then I put a couple of layers of masking tape on the shafts at the point where the ferrules ended (to prevent extra epoxy from dripping down onto the exposed shaft) marked the alignment for the ferrules on the tape and the ferrule (to help me align the ferrules correctly when they were glued down) and applied a coat of the mixed epoxy to the shaft and slipped the ferrules into place. The stuff dried in a few hours and the paddle served me well for another year before a managed to snap the shaft during an incautious re-entry. -- Darryl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have a middle of the road paddle that has given good service for several > years. It had been in a warehouse for the last year or so. When I picked > it up the other day the blade was turning freely in the shaft. It appeared > that it had been held in with some sort of adhesive or double sided tape > that had dry rotted out. If anyone knows the correct way to repair this > problem I would be greatly appreciative. If blades are fiberglass or carbon composite - use epoxy. They can by polyethilene as well (even when the shaft is fiberglass). Then epoxy won't work, and I don't know what adhesive will. May be 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200. It takes up to 10 days to cure completely sometimes, especially in enclosed volumes and thick layers, so give it at least a week. The tighter is the connection - the better, as the adhesive isn't as mechanically strong or rigid as epoxy, so you might need to wrap a layer of fiberglass cloth soaked in epoxy around the blade root and then may be sand it down to the right diameter, before applying the adhesive - doesn't matter what shaft material, epoxy adheres to anything but polyethylene, and shafts are never made of polyethylene, AFAIK. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane wrote: > What I want to know is when kayak manufacturers are going to stop > designing sea kayaks with so much stern rocker. I see stern rocker, and I > see a weathercocking and broaching SOB with high a PO factor. It seems > they are fine making their kayaks skeg or rudder dependent even for mild > conditions. > > Is Mariner the only manufacturer to ever get it right? My Mariner Express had an integral skeg and with its moveable seat weathercocking was nil. My Seda Ikkuma has a bit of stern rocker but not much and weathercocking is also nil. However, in confused and following chop, such as at the entrance to San Diego's Mission Bay Channel, both can suddenly veer off course; broach. They both turn easily and can be readily corrected, but I have not learned to prevent this veering before it happens, even after 10 years with the Express. My straight tracking Solstice GTS can be paddled without any sudden veering in these following conditions, and without deploying the rudder. However, once off my line it takes a bit of effort to get it back. Very little stern rocker on the GTS. Lowering stern rocker helps to slow broaching, like deploying a skeg. But weathercocking seems to me more dependent on wind balance. Weathercocking and broach resistance are two different phenomena. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig said (snip): > How can designs with that sort of presence be largely ignored? At the Pt. > Townsend seminar I could easily spot a Mariner hull upside down in a > gaggle > of other designs simply by the hull shape. All the rest just looked alike > inverted. I was amazed. The last hull Matt and Cam designed was in the > early > 1990s and they STILL stand out in a crowd. It would be different if the > damned things didn't perform as advertised. Cam and Matt are hull design geniuses. Was that ever in dispute? :-) > Doug said he doesn't like their "esthetics"; maybe he can explain that. > I'm > sure he's paddled Mariners and certainly has a lot of experience paddling > the sort of water Mariners (and the Coaster in particular) were designed > to > handle. Maybe Doug knows something you and I don't It is axiomatic in most paddling circles that the Mariner kayaks, in general, have a bit of a different aesthetic. The new Delta kayaks suffer the same aesthetic. There's nothing wrong with that. It is simply personal preference. While I do like the Mariner II, and indeed have paddled this kayak design, enjoying its "slippery slide" through the water, to me the fuller Mariner line, most models in context, are like a mature, middle aged women: round, with big, soft curves. Perhaps more reliable, more beneficially conducive to pragmatic matters at hand, but I'd still rather be seen with a twenty-something. :-) > Perhaps the designs are just too radical even now. Designed to excel in > the > sort of kayaking that is only now becoming more popular. And perhaps no > one > believes the hype. I know I didn't until I paddled an Express in choppy > water and felt it try to accelerate and surf every wave. I know excellent paddlers who both love and, not so much now, don't adore these particular kayaks. Or have simply become unfaithful. I've paddled some of them out on the west coast, and yes, they perform, at varying levels and in some cases, to perfection. And what I want and like and tend to feel right in is a different matter. > As of this morning, two Mariners appeared on the Seattle craigslist (in > "boats"); a Max and an XL. I wonder how long they'll last at $1200 each. > The > only Coaster that has appeared on any craigslist on the west coast (and > trust me, I've been watching for them) was the one I bought 2 hours after > the ad appeared. Why are they being sold? Anyway Craig, may the mother godess of mothershipping grant you fleetness astern, may the spirit of the mighty Poseidon bless your paddle with power and your paddling with vigor, and may you know many more years of fine yaking, whether in a fine-design Mariner or less worthy craft - and fine yaking both in a kayak and on list server conversations yet to be inspired. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Anyway Craig, may the mother godess of mothershipping grant you fleetness > astern, may the spirit of the mighty Poseidon bless your paddle with power > and your paddling with vigor, and may you know many more years of fine > yaking, whether in a fine-design Mariner or less worthy craft - and fine > yaking both in a kayak and on list server conversations yet to be > inspired. That's "muthah-shipping". <grin> Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. It's always fun to get in on one of these debates (or help start one) because the ideas are always interesting. As to why the Mariners are being sold, I didn't ask. At least one of the Mariners has some repair issues (bow). Sometimes people just give up aspects of paddling for personal reasons. Sometimes they move on; having been seduced into something new. I didn't dare contact the seller. I'm not allowed to buy any more kayaks. I'm pretty sure she's bought a gun. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now I realize my problem--I'm paddling my grandma! -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:15 PM To: Craig Jungers; Duane Strosaker Cc: paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Another Tiderace Review ...to me the fuller Mariner line, most models in context, are like a mature, middle aged women: round, with big, soft curves. Perhaps more reliable, more beneficially conducive to pragmatic matters at hand, but I'd still rather be seen with a twenty-something. :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm paddling with a smooth teenager. My boats only about 16 years old. Bradford R. Crain Mark wrote: > Now I realize my problem--I'm paddling my grandma! Craig or Doug or someone said one day: > ...to me the fuller Mariner line, most models in context, are like a > mature, > middle > aged women: round, with big, soft curves. Perhaps more reliable, more > beneficially conducive to pragmatic matters at hand, but I'd still rather > be > seen with a twenty-something. :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, overall, the Mariner line of kayaks seems to be the penultimate line of kayaks that do well without rudders or skegs. I do admit that. An active paddling style with a responsive hull design without auxiliary appendages must arguably be the hallmark of achieving the perfect compromise of design. I'd never take that away from Matt or Cam. As for my preferences, I don't know what to tell you. I've paddled Matt's boats and the NDKs. Certainly the NDK's are all the rage these days around the PNW for the performance boat crowd - certainly the Romany for those who can fit them. I'm not sure if that is because of the cult status these boats have been given by better coaches like the folks at Body/Boat/Blade, or because kayaks like the Romany truly excel for the intended audience. I don't like the boat. Wish I did. I've seen guys like Gordin W. come into there own once they found their perfect ride. I'm still looking for mine. And, I can assure you I will find, make, or modify my perfect ride one day. And, I must admit, it is difficult pulling myself away from the Igdlorssuit inspired lineage just about all British kayaks are derived from. I'm not so sure hard chines are my bag, perhaps too slappy in waves, slower, and less predictable in heavy seas; it does seem most recreational paddlers in the end are happy with some bilge roundness, while the harder chin kayaks do best in an SOF build where there is flex and give. It also seems apparent to me that British paddlers tend to like to paddle what their peers are paddling. That's almost axiomatic too. I also wonder what happened to the Lee Moyer, Pacific Water Sports line of kayaks. They were another local PNW line of kayaks that had good success and a goodly following. Oh, I know the history with Lee and his ex and all that, but I still wonder why these manufactures come and go, rather than their designs just getting better and better, like Valley and P&H. Even the Mariners were out of production for some time. My old Nordkapp fit me like a glove, allowed for complete confidence I could get through anything - and often did, and I've never climbed in another boat that made me feel that way (even discounting the never-as-familiar-with-your-old-boat phenomenon). If I lower the profile a bit more, shape in a bit more rocker, add a Keriteck skeg or rudder and lighten it up, I may just go with that. Oh, and Craig, sitting here today listening to some old 80's feel-good light rock, the fleeting memories of the early 80's came flooding back: driving down to Seattle, my Nordkapp on the roofracks, looking for some good gear I couldn't by here at the time, then heading over to Cape Flattery - youth intact, sense of adventure keen, loads of life still ahead of me, no limits to the horizon, no irrational fears of the ocean holding my at bay - those were the days. They pass far too quickly my friend. Doug with more emphasis on a tight-fitting, low-profile design that tracks well in open waters, can still be played with in rock gardens, and has a good turn of speed full out, yet paddles easily and burns less calories at routine paddling speeds. I really don't think you can get all this in one design; certainly not without adding skegs, etc. Not that this is bad, mind you (we all know that I have no problems with rudders, etc.) but it seems that the majority of boats have to make compromises to get the form that their customers want as well as the handling characteristics. Duane's point seems to have been that Mariner got this right; why hasn't anyone else? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > Yes, overall, the Mariner line of kayaks seems to be the penultimate line > of kayaks that do well without rudders or skegs. I do admit that. An active > paddling style with a responsive hull design without auxiliary appendages > must arguably be the hallmark of achieving the perfect compromise of design. > I'd never take that away from Matt or Cam. > The question remains: Why haven't more designers taken the Mariner designs and moved forward with them? Or even some designers. LOL. > And, I must admit, it is difficult pulling myself away from the > Igdlorssuit inspired lineage just about all British kayaks are derived from. > I'm not so sure hard chines are my bag, perhaps too slappy in waves, slower, > and less predictable in heavy seas; it does seem most recreational paddlers > in the end are happy with some bilge roundness, while the harder chin kayaks > do best in an SOF build where there is flex and give. It also seems apparent > to me that British paddlers tend to like to paddle what their peers are > paddling. That's almost axiomatic too. > We like what we like and what we're used to and most of us have to be pushed into anything new and different. Pam almost literally pushed me into Mariners and then, after buying a Max and a Sprite, she's move to an Ice Kap. I tend to like chines because I like my boat to "bite" into the waves as I move across them rather than slide sideways. I guess that's another part of the Mariner hull shape that surprised me because they have chines aft and round hulls forward. Plus a keel. Just try to build this in SOF. LOL. (And ya, I know someone built an SOF version of a Coaster... talk about dedication.) I also wonder what happened to the Lee Moyer, Pacific Water Sports line of > kayaks. They were another local PNW line of kayaks that had good success and > a goodly following. Oh, I know the history with Lee and his ex and all that, > but I still wonder why these manufactures come and go, rather than their > designs just getting better and better, like Valley and P&H. Even the > Mariners were out of production for some time. > Marketing? I look at all the ads and so many of them tout directional stability ("like it's on rails"). Is this what paddlers want or is it what the marketers are convincing them they want? Rock solid directional stability is great for point-to-point paddling but not so nifty if you want to play in a rock garden. Again, the Mariners seem to have combined these traits better than most but no one has jumped onto that bandwagon at all. I would hate for that design line to just end... with all its promise (and so many races won, too). > > My old Nordkapp fit me like a glove, allowed for complete confidence I > could get through anything - and often did, and I've never climbed in > another boat that made me feel that way (even discounting the > never-as-familiar-with-your-old-boat phenomenon). If I lower the profile a > bit more, shape in a bit more rocker, add a Keriteck skeg or rudder and > lighten it up, I may just go with that. > Having full confidence and faith in your ride is critical in the soup, there is no doubt. But you paddled that boat for a long, long time so it's not surprising that it would take some finite period of time to get as familiar with another design. Or maybe it's not possible. > > Oh, and Craig, sitting here today listening to some old 80's feel-good > light rock, the fleeting memories of the early 80's came flooding back: > driving down to Seattle, my Nordkapp on the roofracks, looking for some good > gear I couldn't by here at the time, then heading over to Cape Flattery - > youth intact, sense of adventure keen, loads of life still ahead of me, no > limits to the horizon, no irrational fears of the ocean holding my at bay - > those were the days. They pass far too quickly my friend. > LOL... I had to laugh at this paragraph because last night when I was responding to you I was watching the PBS begathon version of rock and blues stars on television and it was difficult to keep my mind on what I was typing. Right now I'm watching Paris-Nice (the bicycle race) and remembering my youth on performance bikes (even in France). Nothing lasts forever and the trick is to be able to move smoothly from one thing to another. Otherwise it's the sofa.. and oblivion. Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kayakers, Come to think of it, I have heard of some manufactured kayak models that behave in wind and waves, but they are rare. The Mariners have the best known reputation for good behavior. But I don't even think you have to go as far as Mariner did with their hull designs (skeggy stern, lots of Swede form, and much, much more) for the good behavior. It just takes more rocker in the bow, less rocker in the stern, keeping the chine low behind the seat, and setting the seat back slightly (all of which Mariners have too). Also, with the trend of highly rockered play boat sea kayaks, why are they mostly over 16 feet, when a 13 or 14 footer would fit the bill in the short distance/play arena? All an over 16 foot highly rockered kayak does is stick a bunch of stern and bow out far and up high to get blown in the wind. Duane Southern California www.rollordrown.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Duane Strosaker <strosaker_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > Kayakers, > > Come to think of it, I have heard of some manufactured kayak models that > behave in wind and waves, but they are rare. The Mariners have the best > known reputation for good behavior. But I don't even think you have to go as > far as Mariner did with their hull designs (skeggy stern, lots of Swede > form, and much, much more) for the good behavior. It just takes more rocker > in the bow, less rocker in the stern, keeping the chine low behind the seat, > and setting the seat back slightly (all of which Mariners have too). > > Also, with the trend of highly rockered play boat sea kayaks, why are > they mostly over 16 feet, when a 13 or 14 footer would fit the bill in the > short distance/play arena? All an over 16 foot highly rockered kayak does is > stick a bunch of stern and bow out far and up high to get blown in the wind. > > Oh I get it... you're just trying to start trouble. :P I think I wondered about this a couple of years ago. Why is it an 8 foot w/w creekboat can keep me safely afloat in class IV (not that I'm interested in class IV, mind you) and it takes a 16 footer to do it on salt water (which, by the way, has even more buoyancy than fresh water)? I believe it's just as Doug implied (or maybe I inferred... it's hard to know): people stick to what they know. Or at least think they know. Or at least I think they think they know. Got it? Craig Jungers It's been a long weekend in Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"muthah-shipping". Got it! Guess I've been leaning toward the other guy's "mothership" moniker: http://www.pbase.com/bartenderdave/profile Dave gave us a good on-going play-by-play on paddlewise and Westcoast Paddler (I finally actually joined WP recently). As for the Mariner's, they really are fine examples of what it takes to find the perfect compromise of design parameters and finally bring into production and distribution each design. All boats, as we know, are a compromise of often competing design issues. And I think Matt and Cam even played up the fact that these kayaks weren't for mass market appeal, but rather for the "few" - the few I assume they meant as totally discriminating paddlers. So if you like the Mariner line in general, I'd say you are amongst some prime candidates. And conceptually and in practice, things like the Mariner sliding seat system for adjusting trim were obviously genius, but then again, more complexity, more weight. The latter undeniable. The lack of bulkheads was another fantastic, if bold, course of action to take. I should know, I have almost irreparable damage to my kayak underhull, where one can plainly determine the profile of the bulkheads from sever cracks. I remember a fellow who first circumnavigated the Charlottes; he had a Washington-made kayak that he specified without bulkheads, due to the heavy surf landings he anticipated. He also found the kayak a pain to load and unload. Again, not a mass-market appeal. As far as Duane's comments, stern rocker is another of those compromises. And just where is the degree of separation between a kayak that needs a rudder or skeg for mild broaching problems versus severe? Where in the continuum does one kayak suddenly designate itself as unfit from a safety and easy usage standpoint? And how much is only antithetical hyperbole (not Duane's specific observations, but in general kayak community discussions)? Ultimately, for a playboat, kayak designers like Bjorn prefer maneuverability to tractability with direction stability primarily the quality of the paddler technique, rather than the hull design which inhibits the kayak forever. This would seem to be the Mariner approach. How one arrives there can be j subjective. That is there opinions and Bjorn would even call it an acquired taste, not shared by all. For an expedition sea kayak, obviously strong tracking features are what one looks for, and anticipates in the design more often than not. Funnily enough, some of the best BCU/ACA/CRCA paddlers I know secretly love their high volume, rudder equipped kayaks (like the CD Expedition as an example), finding life just simply grand in these kayaks for long-range travel, with ease of directional stability in cross winds during long exposures, and not too tight a fit for multi-day expeditioning, as far as cockpit size and seating. I like a kayak than can do it all, with more emphasis on a tight-fitting, low-profile design that tracks well in open waters, can still be played with in rock gardens, and has a good turn of speed full out, yet paddles easily and burns less calories at routine paddling speeds. It has to look good too, be able to be maneuver back on course when wave and wind conspire to push you around. I don't want a kayak that pops hatches in open surf, leaks, and one that doesn't crack under the indignation of heavy rocky surf landings; one that has at least a bit of secondary (or final) stability, and a kayak that you simply are not overtly aware of beneath you (one that makes you feel like part of the environment, rather than sitting in a big tub). That last point has been mentioned by Mariner owners, so I know some are happy, and certainly the responsiveness of kayaks like the Express suggests that this is a key aspect of kayak "feel" and flow. For me, traditional Inuit based designs and the British-form kayaks are the only thing that turns my crank. I may be wrong, I may be right. It is my oinion. That's all I can really answer for, though I am unabashed in my desire to see paddlers get out on the water and enjoy themselves - even if you have to use "muthashipping". :-) (My wife just looked at Dave's photos of the bartender, and said she could see herself skippering a boat like that, following me around in my kayak. A mama mothershipper in waiting!) Doug Craig had said (snip): That's "muthah-shipping". <grin> Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. It's always fun to get in on one of these debates (or help start one) because the ideas are always interesting. As to why the Mariners are being sold, I didn't ask. At least one of the Mariners has some repair issues (bow). Sometimes people just give up aspects of paddling for personal reasons. Sometimes they move on; having been seduced into something new. I didn't dare contact the seller. I'm not allowed to buy any more kayaks. I'm pretty sure she's bought a gun. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > Dave gave us a good on-going play-by-play on paddlewise and Westcoast > Paddler (I finally actually joined WP recently). > Dave's postings and his comments also influence me in the direction of a mutha-ship. I should join WP myself. I'd join CKF too if I could figure out how to do it without sending money. LOL. > > And conceptually and in practice, things like the Mariner sliding seat > system for adjusting trim were obviously genius, but then again, more > complexity, more weight. The latter undeniable. > Certainly the seat was undeniable genius. And I suppose it does add complexity in the most basic sense. It's a pretty simple complexity though. I would have never thought it would work and never believed I could make it work. But it's actually easy. The sliding seat in my rescued Escape has been installed for at least 20 years and all I had to do was re-epoxy the rails to the hull to make it work as good as new. Maybe that's how genius works. > The lack of bulkheads was another fantastic, if bold, course of action to > take. I should know, I have almost irreparable damage to my kayak underhull, > where one can plainly determine the profile of the bulkheads from sever > cracks. I remember a fellow who first circumnavigated the Charlottes; he had > a Washington-made kayak that he specified without bulkheads, due to the > heavy surf landings he anticipated. He also found the kayak a pain to load > and unload. Again, not a mass-market appeal. > A large number of w/w kayaks have no bulkheads even now; many have some supporting structure though. Back in the "old" days of sea kayaking it was unusual to find a boat with bulkheads. We had to load everything through the cockpit. And I seem to remember that, for me, it all went into war surplus duffle bags. > As far as Duane's comments, stern rocker is another of those compromises. > And just where is the degree of separation between a kayak that needs a > rudder or skeg for mild broaching problems versus severe? Where in the > continuum does one kayak suddenly designate itself as unfit from a safety > and easy usage standpoint? And how much is only antithetical hyperbole (not > Duane's specific observations, but in general kayak community discussions)? > Well, marketing is almost a synonym for hyperbole I think. > > Ultimately, for a playboat, kayak designers like Bjorn prefer > maneuverability to tractability with direction stability primarily the > quality of the paddler technique, rather than the hull design which inhibits > the kayak forever. This would seem to be the Mariner approach. How one > arrives there can be j subjective. > The different designs of the Mariners do share common hull characteristics but I don't think that was the point. I think the point was to fulfill a specific design objective while retaining common performance characteristics. Certainly, that's what the Mariner web site ( www.marinerkayaks.com) seems to indicate. Most of their designs seem to have been modifications to earlier boats in order to fulfill some requirement: comfort for smaller/larger paddlers, better surfing, more load carrying, higher speed, etc. Now, it's axiomatic that whatever kayak one owns is the kayak that one either loves or hates. Just glance over the paddler reviews on www.paddling.net, for instance. You'd be hard pressed to find many scores under 9 out of 10. And maybe I'm a convert. A few years back Matt Broze made a comment on Paddlewise in which he claimed that simple and almost automatic edges make a rudder a useless appendage on a Mariner. My reaction to that was, basically, "Pfftt." Oddly enough, Matt was right. Imagine my surprise. There's nothing worse than a new convert, right? :) But my take on Duane's remarks - and I could be wrong - is that the basic Mariner hull shape (which is a combination of hull shapes each flowing into the other) solves many of the issues facing all sea kayaks without the addition of extraneous devices (like skegs and rudders) (although the sliding seat is an extraneous device... but at least it's entirely within). That's not to say that a Mariner II can maneuver as nimbly as a Mariner Coaster - because it can't; or that an Express can carry as much as a Max. What it does say is that certain characteristics of the kayaks are shared. Initial stability plus secondary stability; directional stability plus better-than-average maneuverability; cockpit room plus a tight fit (just move the seat back to gain more room). Duane was wondering why no one else had gone in this direction and had, instead, added external devices to overcome the disadvantages of the hull shape they designed. The Broze Bros. didn't have to do this with the Mariners. All their designs, while drawn with a specific goal in mind, nevertheless share certain critical performance characteristics with all their other designs but not many characteristics with the other boats out there even though they demonstrably work. So I still wonder why so few kayak manufacturers have stolen or modified their ideas. So, apparently, does Duane. If a Coaster can go straight without a rudder but still maneuver incredibly well, why haven't others jumped on that bandwagon. Is it just that they don't like the "fat butt" look? I like a kayak than can do it all, > Maybe this is where I find myself in the minority of sea kayakers. I have no problem with a kayak that does something specific and does it very well. My Nimbus Telkwa HV is a wonderful expedition boat (rudder and all) that is secure, comfortable and safe for long trips. My wife's Nimbus Solander is perfect for her size and is wonderfully neutral on windy days with scrappy seas but doesn't carry much of a load. The Express is a terrific performance boat that can easily carry gear for a weekend. The Coaster works for play. Any of these have some crossover so in some sense they can "do it all"; but the Coaster can't be a great expedition boat, the Telkwa wouldn't make a good rock-garden boat, the Solander wouldn't be my choice for surfing. I suppose the Express comes as close as any of them to a "do it all" boat but still has a lack of performance "edge" in the specialties. And, like most w/w paddlers, I don't much care whether the boat is "pretty". God knows, the spoon bows and squashed sterns of a w/w playboat or the bulbous contours of a creekboat bear little resemblance to a "pretty" kayak but they sell craploads of them to paddlers who expect the boats to do specific things. Of course, a w/w kayak brand new is much less spendy than a sea kayak; even the best playboats and creekboats seldom cost more than about $1300 (US) while a good sea kayak starts out about $2500 (US). This works against acquiring a "quiver" of sea kayaks like w/w boaters are prone to do. That doesn't even count the storage factor which is very different for a 16 to 18 foot boat versus a 7 to 8 foot boat. You can solve the acquisition factor with careful (and regular) scrutiny of craigslist but storage is a much harder problem to solve for most paddlers. with more emphasis on a tight-fitting, low-profile design that tracks well > in open waters, can still be played with in rock gardens, and has a good > turn of speed full out, yet paddles easily and burns less calories at > routine paddling speeds. > I really don't think you can get all this in one design; certainly not without adding skegs, etc. Not that this is bad, mind you (we all know that I have no problems with rudders, etc.) but it seems that the majority of boats have to make compromises to get the form that their customers want as well as the handling characteristics. Duane's point seems to have been that Mariner got this right; why hasn't anyone else? > It has to look good too, be able to be maneuver back on course when wave > and wind conspire to push you around. I don't want a kayak that pops hatches > in open surf, leaks, and one that doesn't crack under the indignation of > heavy rocky surf landings; one that has at least a bit of secondary (or > final) stability, and a kayak that you simply are not overtly aware of > beneath you (one that makes you feel like part of the environment, rather > than sitting in a big tub). That last point has been mentioned by Mariner > owners, so I know some are happy, and certainly the responsiveness of kayaks > like the Express suggests that this is a key aspect of kayak "feel" and > flow. > Here some of the different design goals of the Mariners come into play. The Express and Coaster certainly do not have the feel of sitting in a "tub". On my nicely rounded (ahem!) body both boats are worn not sat in. But the Mariner Escape is certainly not tight even on me; however it was designed for an even bigger guy with a foot size of up to 14 (US... I can't even imagine how big that would be in EU sizes LOL). In the Coaster and Express I have to wear tight-fitting booties; in the Escape I can wear my hiking boots. So someone new who paddled an Escape might forever think Mariners are "huge" while that same person who paddled only an Elan would think they were designed for midgets. They'd both be right. But both boats still share major hull design characteristics. The one common characteristic in Mariner boats is that they feel like an extension of one's body. (Ok, maybe not the Escape... at least with me in it but with a 300lb guy in it maybe so.) > For me, traditional Inuit based designs and the British-form kayaks are > the only thing that turns my crank. I may be wrong, I may be right. It is my > oinion. That's all I can really answer for, though I am unabashed in my > desire to see paddlers get out on the water and enjoy themselves - even if > you have to use "muthashipping". :-) > Well ya... I agree with all of that that. Some guys like blondes, some girls like football players. I wish I had the advantage of living in Victoria with a plethora of paddling opportunities involving fast moving salt water, beautiful harbor paddles, etc. I have to drive to them and then figure out where to stay. The muthah ship seems logical but I won't know until I get farther along in this. > > (My wife just looked at Dave's photos of the bartender, and said she could > see herself skippering a boat like that, following me around in my kayak. A > mama mothershipper in waiting!) > Yet another good reason to consider mutha ships. My wife, who has been boating all her adult life (mostly due to the serious mistake she made at age 18 when she met me) thinks exactly the same thing. It's a way to get everyone involved at some level rather than just have Dad (or, in my case, Grampa) drive off for the weekend only to reappear smelly and unshaven and sore late on Sunday evening. With a muthah-ship the entire family can be smelly and sore on Sunday evening. :) Have I mentioned that it's good to have you back? :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Please remove all old content that is not pertinent to your reply including old headers and footers. It's list policy.... 208 lines were removed from this post was to meet policy] Ok, I'll play the role of Mariner heretic today. I do not like their decks. I hate padeyes. I hate the cleats on the foredeck. I cannot stand the rigging excess I see in many of them. I like forward and aft bulkheads and prefer a day hatch, though it is not absolutely necessary. I can get by with just a sea sock, but still, that has some drawbacks. I do not have a problem with the Mariner aesthetics otherwise. I think the lines of them are quite nice and the build quality an industry leader. For what it's worth my old Valley Jubillee HM with the skegged stern had enough stern rocker to make it maneuverable (when on edge) but track like a train in beam winds. I look forward to test driving an Xcite one day as there are some interesting aspects to it. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 8:57 AM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > Ok, I'll play the role of Mariner heretic today. I do not like their > decks. I hate padeyes. I hate the cleats on the foredeck. I cannot stand the > rigging excess I see in many of them. I like forward and aft bulkheads and > prefer a day hatch, though it is not absolutely necessary. I can get by with > just a sea sock, but still, that has some drawbacks. I do not have a problem > with the Mariner aesthetics otherwise. I think the lines of them are quite > nice and the build quality an industry leader. > These are all valid criticisms of the fitting out of the kayaks (and can be altered by any owner). I'd like to hear your opinions on the way the boats perform. Those you may have paddled yourself and those you've observed being paddled by others. To go back to Duane's question, in terms of having a hull design that seems to be able to do everything people say they want in a kayak without adding doodads like skegs and rudders, why aren't there more modern adaptations of those designs? Do you think that if a w/w mfgr came out with a boat that did its job as well as most Mariners do theirs every w/w producer would be churning out a copy. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> To go back to Duane's question, in terms of having a hull design that > seems > to be able to do everything people say they want in a kayak without adding > doodads like skegs and rudders, why aren't there more modern adaptations > of > those designs? Could it be simply due to pride? If the mariner design was the dominate design then there would not be many other kayak designers in business. In other words no matter how great the mariner design might be, there will aways be some pride filled designer out there that thinks he/she can come up with something better or at least different. And I think it's hard for first time kayak buyers to appreciate the subtleties of the mariner design which creates a demand for kayaks with rudders/skegs. -mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Could it be simply due to pride? If the mariner design was the dominate design then there would not be many other kayak designers in business. In other words no matter how great the mariner design might be, there will aways be some pride filled designer out there that thinks he/she can come up with something better or at least different. And I think it's hard for first time kayak buyers to appreciate the subtleties of the mariner design which creates a demand for kayaks with rudders/skegs. I would really love to see some statistics as to which are the most popular sea kayaks. While you are all touting performance, I suspect the truth of the matter is that your typical sea kayaker (even second and third time buyers)are not really so sophisticated as to their choices in boats - and paddles, and other gear for that matter. Just look at car sales for example. Is everybody really looking for the most efficient vehicle? Just what in the %^$# is going through the heads of the people who buy Hummers? Why do we have so many different variations of automobiles if everybody is looking for the same perfect car? I suspect that a great many designers and manufactures of sea kayaks are looking to produce little more then what current trends in sales dictate. But then that's just my very cynical take on the subject :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Scott Hilliard <kiayker_at_sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > I would really love to see some statistics as to which are the most > popular sea kayaks. While you are all touting performance, I suspect the > truth of the matter is that your typical sea kayaker (even second and third > time buyers)are not really so sophisticated as to their choices in boats - > and paddles, and other gear for that matter. Just look at car sales for > example. Is everybody really looking for the most efficient vehicle? Just > what in the %^$# is going through the heads of the people who buy Hummers? > Why do we have so many different variations of automobiles if everybody is > looking for the same perfect car? I suspect that a great many designers and > manufactures of sea kayaks are looking to produce little more then what > current trends in sales dictate. But then that's just my very cynical take > on the subject :-) Cynical or not, I think this is probably the major explanation for why Mariners aren't the most popular kayaks in the world; or even the USA (although they're pretty popular on the west coast). And even if most of the paddlers were sophisticated, they probably wouldn't want anything that cost more than XXX dollars or weighed more than XX pounds or were longer than XX feet. So this begs the question: what are we being sold when we hear that a $3500 kayak is a "performance" kayak? Just something really really tippy so that we can feel smug about taming it when none of our friends can? Or are folks who actually *do* get something from performance boats actually getting that extra edge? None of this, of course, answers Duane's question: Was Mariner the only mfgr to get it "right". When Matt and Cam were not going to continue producing Mariners why wasn't someone like Necky bidding heavily for the rights to license, say.... the Coaster. It seems to me that would be an almost sure-fire big seller. Of course, what I know about marketing kayaks in particular or marketing in general can fill books. In fact, I'm pretty sure it *has* filled books. Heck... how hard could it be. :P Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I believe Duane Strosaker said something very credible, in that the Broze brothers are very, very serious hull designers who have a deep understanding of kayaks (far more than I by an exponential factor). However, the kayak is a combination of hull and deck that forms a system and I prefer the system that defers to hull performance, rescueability and ease of use by the operator. If you buy the Broze philosophy of paddling you will be well rewarded with a kayak whose hull is peerless, whose construction is peerless (my opinions) and whose deck is not of my preference, (the other part of the system that separates us from open canoes). These are just my opinions and preferences from operating on open water. Like the original operators of closed decked boats, I have my preferences and wish not to pollute my fellow paddlers with my biases and suggest they seek out theirs. I currently paddle the compromise of all comromises, the NDK Explorer. I like it, you may not. That said, If Matt or Cam Broze were speaking about anything related to paddling, I would be listening, very closely. Kind regards, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob, you said: >I believe Duane Strosaker said something very credible, in that the Broze >brothers are very, very serious hull designers who have a deep >understanding of kayaks (far more than I by an exponential factor). While that is true, we have someone on the other coast who designs kayaks that look entirely different from Mariner kayaks - I'm thinking of John Winters and the very modern, very well made QCC kayaks. >However, the kayak is a combination of hull and deck that forms a system >and I prefer the system that defers to hull performance, rescueability and >ease of use by the operator. If you buy the Broze philosophy of paddling >you will be well rewarded with a kayak whose hull is peerless, whose >construction is peerless (my opinions) and whose deck is not of my >preference, (the other part of the system that separates us from open >canoes). These are just my opinions and preferences from operating on open >water. Like the original operators of closed decked boats, I have my >preferences and wish not to pollute my fellow paddlers with my biases and >suggest they seek out theirs. I currently paddle the compromise of all >comromises, the NDK Explorer. I like it, you may not. snip Well, I called the mariner line of kayaks a perfect compromise in an earlier post. Probably, Matt would say they are without compromise. While the NDK's are not everybodies cup of tea, the Mariners are not everybodies cup of java. I suppose what Craig was trying to get at is that the Mariner boats are distinguished by their lack of need for skeg or rudder. This then truly isn't a compromise. I always figured the Coaster and the Express or Elan were the distinctive, seakindly, maneuverable kayaks that an active paddling style rewarded best and best represented what the Mariner kayaks were all about. The rest of the line was okay. Of course, leecocking or weathercocking issues are often more related to loading and seat positioning with some of the Mariners. One of the paddlers I knew was tall, and so may have been seated incorrectly (too far back). Still, Craig asks a legit question in wondering why at least some of the field of Mariners never got picked up by someone else. I'd certainly be willing to play with the hull design to incorporate it into something with a different deck and tighter fit, if plans were available. There's a whole world of strip-kayak builders out there who would eventually prove or disprove the notion that these boats were the penultimate, as these guys can choose from an array of kayak designs and modify for size. I do think the NDK represents probably the best all around performance sea kayak in the world today. A not-bad playboat that still offers expedition potential and versatility, while taking care of the paddler. Predictable, neutral in strong winds, trim-enabled with the skeg in high winds to change the pivot point, it's an awesome rough water machine. I didn't like the fit compared to my Nordkapp, but would probably absolutely love to try an Explorer LV with its better fit for me, lower deck, and cockpit length smaller that of a full-size keyhole but bigger than an Oceancockpit. It's not necessarily just an LV girlie boat. However, I didn't like the Explorer's secondary stability which kicks in quickly. So no, it's not the perfect kayak for me. I like a kayak with and egge, one that keeps me on the edge, not one that you can edge all day effortlessly because something else has to be compronised. Oh, and there are folks who sell Explorers after a year or two, still looking for something better (more playful, faster, who knows). I think you might like the Tiderace kayaks though, Rob. But people come in such a wide range of sizes and weights and expectations and performance goals and usage requirements, that there's never going to be consensus on the perfect kayak. The Nordkapp has been, according to Seakayaker magazine, a number one choice in voting and model requested for review over the years. How can that be described as marketing? It was merely reflective of readership input. A wide variety of readership. And just who is out there saying a skinny, difficult to relax in kayak is what one should be aiming for? What consperitorial marketing? Every size and configuration of kayak out there is currently marketed. In an earlier post, Craig suggests I could never feel comfortable in a different kayak, as I've had my Nordkapp HS too long. No, I'm willing to admit designs have far improved over the last few years, and there may even be designs out there far superior for given criteria that have been available for a number of years. But if I try other kayaks and don't get the performance I'm looking for, isn't attempts to sway me an attempt to pollute my mind by suggesting I'm blinded? Anyway, I like your take on things Rob. Besides, I know I need a new kind of ride; I'll let you guys know when I find it. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug: > I'd expect nothing less from Sterling though, in terms of his > good-workmanship, build-proper ethic. Matt put me on to him a while back; > the man's a freaking >genius, living in relative obscurity (from my > perspective, anyway). Craig: >>I was impressed with his shop and his people who were checking in with him >>regarding quality issues so often while he and I chatted that I began to >>feel guilty for >>taking him away from his work. The Ice Kap (Pam just >>bought one) is a boat I think you could fall in love with. That Ice Kap is a nice boat - not cheap in the epoxy-infused version, but with unprecedented resin/cloth ratios, outstanding. Dubside's black Ice Kap was featured on a YouTube segment (or whatever); I missed the symposium, but I understand Sterling lowered the profile (at least the rear coaming). Too bad an LV version isn't already mandated as an available non-custom option. So many manufactures are missing the boat here. Doug: >Deck rigging: You are talking to a guy who spent 4 to 5 hours per recessed >deck fitting for an individual mold-refit on 20 fittings on one of his epic >multi-month >Nordkapp rebuilds. But for my next kayak, I'm going to the >other extreme, with a full sweep of clear deck. Craig: >>I'm just afraid that if I change anything I'll kick myself later. Stuff on >>the back deck doesn't bother me (I can't twist around enough to even look >>back very >>easily). >Matt's deck rigging looks so... so.... complicated >>that it just *must* be super useful. I'm just too dense to figure out how >>to use it more effectively. LOL Matt was one of the early promoters of temporary outrigger re-entry methodology; his rigging reflects that. Funny to now see almost all kayak reviews include deck rigging as an integral component of good design. I remember going to a Canoe Sport BC annual meeting in Vancouver 25 years ago to defend deck rigging and perimeter lines, but not to the point of making it a must have requirement. The large crown gathered was so very worried that due to the British boat bias of the Ocean Kayaking Association's membership and executive, we would try and implement a standard if OKABC became the defacto representative organization for BC kayakers. What silly days those were. Seems like marketplace sorted that one out anyway. Doug: >Reviewers called it a "lively hull." There was observations about how the >Nordy's lack of secondary stability compared to the, say, NDK Explorer's, >made that >last bit of completing a roll just that bit more difficult. Craig: >>Now, see... this is where I completely lose touch with the thread. When I >>came back to sea kayaks I was stunned to find them so much less stable >>than white >>water kayaks. Modern w/w boats are lots wider of course >>(there has to be some place for your knees to go when you stuff a 6'2" >>frame into a 6'0" playboat) >>which accounts for the initial stability; >>but they have impressive secondary stability too (so you can edge to and >>fro in eddies). The only "twitch" factor in a w/w >>boat is the lateral >>(directional) stability which, of course, is practically non-existent. >>Imagine my surprise when people tell me that a sea kayak with 120 gallons >>of >>volume is "too small" for me (my biggest w/w boat is 90 gallons and >>supports me just fine). Why I would actually seek out a twitchy boat to >>take into white >>water remains a mystery to me. Maybe I'm just too much >>of an ol' fart but I'm perfectly capable of screwing up a move all by >>myself; I don't want my kayak to >>step in and make it worse. But I don't >>want it so stable that it has no performance either. Another thing I like >>about the Mariners. I find out on open water, narrow is better. Ken Fink has promoted this aspect of narrow is better from a wave-handling dynamic at symposia over the years. Most definitely couter-intuitive.But for an ocean playboat, short and wider seems the preference. Certainly, I've found for pure surf fun, this holds true. For rock garden work, same again. Waters can be so extremely soupish and jobbly, that the extra stability is very reassuring. And big rebound, elevator rides, and rock garden, stability is king. Of course, every good playboat that gets reviewed mention is made of how much slower the kayak is for touring. For the paddler navigating long, exposed coat on a multiday trip who like to play as he/she travels down the coast, this compromise becomes a difficult choice. Day/weekend paddlers living, say, along the northern California coast, their choices, by proximity, often make the decision easier, and certainly lend credence to the owing multiple kayaks philosophy. As for fast currents/tidal streams, a playboat in the 16 to 17 foot range is fine. I don't have a strong opinion there for width. Stability here is a somewhat subjective factor. But no one takes these different zones of play into consideration apart from one another, usually. Bow bouyancy, ability to manouver, track in winds, primary versus secondary stability, fit of cockpit, and the myriad of other criteria really mean trying out many boats and taking in honest reviews helps, but until you get a kayak out into the conditions of preference, it's hard to know, let alone deciding what your focus is going to be. Some guys like narrow in the rough. At the very least, my Nordkapp has been anything but boring is some of the bigger coastal impact zones, whirlpools, nightime stoems and tideraces, and rougher bar crossings. Hey, on the "This is Warren" movie, the action in Deception Pass in a narrow Anas Acuta shows just what a narrow Greenland-inspired kayak is capable of. http://www.paddlinginstructor.com/video/sea_kayak_videos/this_is_warren_-_extreme_greenland_paddling_20070108.php And from a minamilist Greenland paddler Sgian Dubh: http://bp0.blogger.com/_VfzQ-j5f79k/R7Ek4LfJYEI/AAAAAAAAALU/2hgGCz-hvko/s1600-h/-sgiandubh-drum08.jpg Doug: >And yes, the Mariner handling aspect would address many of the more honest >reviews of other brands of kayaks with handling/tracking, maneuverability >issues. >But like Jerry pointed out, wave effects and wind effect are >different issues, whose combined energies present both unique problems and >commingled difficulties >for paddlers and designers alike. Craig (snip): >>The second surprise was when the southerly wind kicked up. It had a lot of >>fetch and the whitecaps were hitting us pretty hard but the Express - >>despite being >>loaded down by both me and the crap I'd put into it - rode >>over them. Neither kayak was much affected by the wind but the Nimbus >>actually was taking more >>water over it than the Express. Dan had not >>secured his skirt that well (it's just a lake... after all) and he got a >>nice bath out of the ride. The ability of that Mariner >>hull to ride over >>and not through big waves was demonstrated later that month in the San >>Juans. I'm sure Matt had mentioned it but I was surprised, >>nevertheless. Kayak with a proven ability to ride over waves and not through then also have a problem in high winds of being blow sideways. Just like boats with low volume give a wetter ride. I was looking around at kayaks for playboating available to me locally. The Necky Chatham 16 looks promising. Also, Duane mentioned they make playboat too long; I noticed a number of male paddlers looking at the new designed-for-women Neck Eliza. 15 feet or so, low deck for women (there's your LV), moves fast through the water for cruising, yet configured with a playful hull, lightweight, and built-in-China cheap. Looks like a nice kayak for the surf. Most of Spike Gladwin influenced designs have lots of playfulness. I'm still thinking a lowered Nordkapp LV might be the perfect combination of form, hull speed, maneuverability, and touring potential. I will keep an open mind. I still am disappointed that local kayak retail stores largely ignore the segment of the paddling community that is interested in more than just touring kayaks. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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Nice to read all these boat reviews, me being interested in a new one myself. Got a chance to expand my horizons a bit and paddle both an Explorer and a Nordkapp. Didn't spend very long in either, just long enough to see how easy they roll compared to my QCC. The Nordkapp felt twitchier to me, but seemed easier to maneuver and seemed to give me a bit more room for my knees. While I'm sure Doug's skill lets him abuse his Nordkapp like a play boat, I think I'd like something with a little more rocker. Heck, I try to avoid paddling too far anyway. I know if I get a new boat, I'm in for a whole different style of kayaking. Mark -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Another Tiderace Review I find out on open water, narrow is better. Ken Fink has promoted this aspect of narrow is better from a wave-handling dynamic at symposia over the years. Most definitely couter-intuitive.But for an ocean playboat, short and wider seems the preference. Certainly, I've found for pure surf fun, this holds true. For rock garden work, same again. Waters can be so extremely soupish and jobbly, that the extra stability is very reassuring Some guys like narrow in the rough. At the very least, my Nordkapp has been anything but boring is some of the bigger coastal impact zones, whirlpools, nightime stoems and tideraces, and rougher bar crossings. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, Was it the LV Nordkapp you tried? I found it much more maneuverable than other Nordkapp models. Also, paddler size, girth, and how tall one is makes a huge difference, as does displacement amidships in relation to kayak width and potential of the kayak for leaned turns and stability perceptions. Overall, kayak reviews and reading of same leave out this important point often. What may be ideal for me (short guy) might be terrible for a guys like Wes Boyd. And what might me a great kayak for Wes might be a dangerous tub for me. Also, consider paddling style. I noticed the Tiderace kayaks have a very tall foredeck. This allows a K-! style of high paddle stroke when combined with your knees up high for more power-like paddling. Lots to consider. Doug (migraining at home - sorry for all my spelling mistakes) > Nice to read all these boat reviews, me being interested in a new one > myself. Got a chance to expand my horizons a bit and paddle both an > Explorer > and a Nordkapp. Didn't spend very long in either, just long enough to see > how easy they roll compared to my QCC. The Nordkapp felt twitchier to me, > but seemed easier to maneuver and seemed to give me a bit more room for my > knees. While I'm sure Doug's skill lets him abuse his Nordkapp like a play > boat, I think I'd like something with a little more rocker. Heck, I try to > avoid paddling too far anyway. I know if I get a new boat, I'm in for a > whole different style of kayaking. > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It was a Jubilee. At 250, I doubt I could fit in an LV. And you have to realize the back deck on my QCC is 11 1/2 inches high, so I'm used to leaning back on my giant back band. Neither the Nord. nor the Exp. I tried had backbands to give me any support, so it was hard for me to put them through their paces. I hear it's better to paddle the Nordkapp loaded, so maybe being a big boy would work to my advantage there! Really though, I don't think I want to get rid of my brand new shinny QCC right now and I would think of these boats as a replacement. I'd like to just add a playful easy rolling boat to my garage, but I'm looking at the used market, so pickings seem sparse. Chuck Freedman tried my QCC while I tried his Nordkapp today and it was funny to see a smaller guy in my boat. It really made it look really big and wide. He was able to roll it OK, but I don't think anyone would call it a play boat! Perhaps it would be good for hanky panky. Mark -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Not Another Tiderace Review Mark, Was it the LV Nordkapp you tried? I found it much more maneuverable than other Nordkapp models. Also, paddler size, girth, and how tall one is makes a huge difference, as does displacement amidships in relation to kayak width and potential of the kayak for leaned turns and stability perceptions. Overall, kayak reviews and reading of same leave out this important point often. What may be ideal for me (short guy) might be terrible for a guys like Wes Boyd. And what might me a great kayak for Wes might be a dangerous tub for me. Also, consider paddling style. I noticed the Tiderace kayaks have a very tall foredeck. This allows a K-! style of high paddle stroke when combined with your knees up high for more power-like paddling. Lots to consider. Doug (migraining at home - sorry for all my spelling mistakes) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: > > > I'm still thinking a lowered Nordkapp LV might be the perfect combination > of > form, hull speed, maneuverability, and touring potential. I will keep an > open mind. I still am disappointed that local kayak retail stores largely > ignore the segment of the paddling community that is interested in more > than > just touring kayaks. > > An open mind is probably the safest bet right now. Things are changing. I wouldn't be surprised to see more demand for "playboats" that are out of the traditional mould as 20-somethings move from w/w and into coastal play. There are already articles in the w/w mags where paddlers are saying things like, "I thought ocean paddling was for wimps but they showed me the way." As for me, I doubt seriously that I'll do any trips longer than an overnight or two and the only open water will be to get to where the fun is. And even that will be toned down. Maybe it's just spring time but I've noticed arthritis in my hands lately and it's started to make me worried about paddling distances. I may have moved to the muthah ship just in time. I only hope the engine starts. LOL I really enjoyed this discussion Doug. Thanks. :) Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>>>>>Matt was one of the early promoters of temporary outrigger re-entry methodology; his rigging reflects that. Funny to now see almost all kayak reviews include deck rigging as an integral component of good design.<<<<<< Actually, Doug you have the cart before the horse. I was influenced by the cool looking deck rigging I saw on some of the English designs such as the VCP Nordkapp and McNulty Huntsman. I spent many late evenings (after my family had retired) in early 1981 in my basement sitting in the original Mariner kayak thinking about how to make deck riggings more functional and add bow and stern towlines into the system that could be deployed with one hand (while also trying to make the towlines longer--for better stretchiness for shock absorption and to keep the kayaks further apart when towing in rougher water) and still allow the bow towline to also rotate the point where it clips together up to near the bow (in order to deploy sea anchors and kite lines while sitting in the cockpit but then move the point of contact forward to operate from the bow). Boy that last sentence runs on and on doesn't it. Hey, it is 2:30 AM and I'm tired from skiing hard from 4 to 10 PM. I didn't invent (and promote) the outrigger paddle float rescue (originally called the Mariner self-rescue--see John Dowd's second edition of Sea Kayaking) until a little after the deck line system was already in place. Serendipitously, the back deck gear holding lines were already located where it was easy to slip a paddle under them and use the drip ring as a stop so the paddle didn't pull back out too easily while pulling on it some to slip ones chest up onto the back deck. The rear towline cleat conveniently kept the paddle mostly perpendicular to the boat (and from being able to scissor in next to the boat). Doug also wrote: >>>>Kayak with a proven ability to ride over waves and not through then also have a problem in high winds of being blow sideways. Just like boats with low volume give a wetter ride.<<<<<<< While I'm sure you have experienced this I don't think you can make it a general rule. I think you may be comparing apples to oranges here. In fact, in some cases your experience could be just the opposite. Given all things being kept equal (that is, an equal profile, draft, width, load weight, and tracking stiffness) except for more fullness in the above waterline bow lines in one of the kayaks than the other I'll bet the fuller bow blows over less because it presents a more streamlined rounded profile to a side wind rather than the more flat vertical ends on a finer bowed kayak. Even though the finer bow may bury in the face of the waves it still comes out and is exposed at the wave crest where the wind is strongest (because it is not blocked by the waves as it is when the bow is in the trough). In fact, after being buried deep in the wave face it may pop out even higher than a bow with a more progressive lift. I can't help but remembering that old Current Designs advertisement with the very fine bow Solstice at about a 45 degree angle after punching a breaker (and while it made a dramatic photo my guess was it was actually headed for a back ender in the next few seconds). Greater fullness at the stern can also make for a wetter ride (all other things being equal) because the previous wave may be (given a roughly kayak length wavelength--the roughest kind) lifting it more and not letting the bow pivot back up as easily as a finer stern (which can sink further allowing the bow pivot up more). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Doug wrote: >>>>>>>>Matt was one of the early promoters of temporary outrigger re-entry > methodology; his rigging reflects that. Funny to now see almost all kayak > reviews include deck rigging as an integral component of good > design.<<<<<< Matt replied: > Actually, Doug you have the cart before the horse. I was influenced by the > cool looking deck rigging I saw on some of the English designs such as the > VCP Nordkapp and McNulty Huntsman. I spent many late evenings (after my > family had retired) in early 1981 in my basement sitting in the original > Mariner kayak thinking about how to make deck riggings more functional > ...snip > I didn't invent (and promote) the outrigger paddle float rescue > (originally > called the Mariner self-rescue--see John Dowd's second edition of Sea > Kayaking) until a little after the deck line system was already in place. > Serendipitously, the back deck gear holding lines were already located > where > it was easy to slip a paddle under them and use the drip ring as a stop > so...snip Well I certainly remember your undue influence on me back then; I carried my half-filler water jug faithfully everywhere I paddled for a number of years, undergoing the scorn and ridicule of my re-enter and roll only buddies. Okay, I kept a SeaSeat for backup. Hey, I have a Nordkapp and a McNulty Huntsman. Where do you think they came up with that saying, "All decked out"? :-) > Doug also wrote: >>>>>Kayak with a proven ability to ride over waves and not through then >>>>>also > > have a problem in high winds of being blow sideways. Just like boats with > low volume give a wetter ride.<<<<<<< Matt replied: > While I'm sure you have experienced this I don't think you can make it a > general rule. I think you may be comparing apples to oranges here. In > fact, > in some cases your experience could be just the opposite. Given all things > being kept equal (that is, an equal profile, draft, width, load weight, > and > tracking stiffness) except for more fullness in the above waterline bow > lines in one of the kayaks than the other I'll bet the fuller bow blows > over > less because it presents a more streamlined rounded profile to a side wind > rather than the more flat vertical ends on a finer bowed kayak. It might, it might not. Hard to take things in isolation, I agree. But you can't discount the possibility totally. Certainly I've heard reports of bow-blow down for owners of kayaks like the Southwind and others. Heck, even the new Nordkapp LV looks like a wind vane. Jeesh. It seems to me each kayak model has its compromises, faults, and better attributes. The kayak community, the market place, time, word of mouth and word over the internet sorts out the models that excell, the models that do okay, and the real dogs (which may do just fine for average paddling). And I know what I see with my own eyes, but as usual, should shut up and keep it to myself. :-) Matt said: >Even though > the finer bow may bury in the face of the waves it still comes out and is > exposed at the wave crest where the wind is strongest (because it is not > blocked by the waves as it is when the bow is in the trough). In fact, > after > being buried deep in the wave face it may pop out even higher than a bow > with a more progressive lift. I can't help but remembering that old > Current > Designs advertisement with the very fine bow Solstice at about a 45 degree > angle after punching a breaker (and while it made a dramatic photo my > guess > was it was actually headed for a back ender in the next few seconds). You don't want to know what else happened to that kayak next in that photoshoot! Matt said: > Greater fullness at the stern can also make for a wetter ride (all other > things being equal) because the previous wave may be (given a roughly > kayak > length wavelength--the roughest kind) lifting it more and not letting the > bow pivot back up as easily as a finer stern (which can sink further > allowing the bow pivot up more). Ah yes, a finer stern. My Nordkapp has a fine looking rear end. Love the sea kindly ride in the messy stuff. Craig doesn't know wht he's missing. Though, his Mariner kayaks are the next best thing. :-) ..........just some humour Matt!!!!!!!!!!!! DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Of course I want to know, but first let me guess. I always want to guess for the practice I get at guessing. Years ago I decided that since I couldn't really know anything for sure, I needed to become a good guesser and one gets better at anything with practice. So I'm guessing the stern hit the sand and seriously damaged the kayak where it was folded probably about half way between the back of the cockpit and the stern, likely at some natural fold point in that general area. It probably had some damage to the rudder as well. At least bent it if it didn't break it right off the stern or broke some fiberglass off the stern with it. I've more than once had to use my kayak to block the wind to a Nordkapp HM's bow so the paddler could turn up into the wind. As I recall your Nordkapp had been an HM before you modified its keel to more closely resemble an HS. Was that before you stuck that honking husky rudder on it or later? Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd [mailto:douglloyd_at_shaw.ca] You don't want to know what else happened to that kayak next in that photoshoot! Matt said: > Greater fullness at the stern can also make for a wetter ride (all other > things being equal) because the previous wave may be (given a roughly > kayak > length wavelength--the roughest kind) lifting it more and not letting the > bow pivot back up as easily as a finer stern (which can sink further > allowing the bow pivot up more). Ah yes, a finer stern. My Nordkapp has a fine looking rear end. Love the sea kindly ride in the messy stuff. Craig doesn't know wht he's missing. Though, his Mariner kayaks are the next best thing. :-) ..........just some humour Matt!!!!!!!!!!!! DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: > Of course I want to know, but first let me guess. I always want to guess > for > the practice I get at guessing. Years ago I decided that since I couldn't > really know anything for sure, I needed to become a good guesser and one > gets better at anything with practice. So I'm guessing the stern hit the > sand and seriously damaged the kayak where it was folded probably about > half > way between the back of the cockpit and the stern, likely at some natural > fold point in that general area. It probably had some damage to the rudder > as well. At least bent it if it didn't break it right off the stern or > broke > some fiberglass off the stern with it. Don't know about the rudder. Most get killed in the surf - that's why I bought a VCP for my rudder addition - a bit more robust. As for the crack on the CD kayak, it was right behind the back coaming where the damage occurred. Nothing that hasn't been addressed in more modern renditions with strategically placed reinforcing. Still, I like the heavier lay-ups myself of the Brit boats - or MORE strategic reinforcing, anyway, in locally made ones. The latter may be a bit more scientific than thickening up the entire hull and deck, given the huge weight gain penalty. I think a good weight gain compromise for the surf/impact zone boat abuser is maybe 5 to 7 pounds. More for me, or go to vacume bagging. Matt then said: > I've more than once had to use my kayak to block the wind to a Nordkapp > HM's > bow so the paddler could turn up into the wind. As I recall your Nordkapp > had been an HM before you modified its keel to more closely resemble an > HS. > Was that before you stuck that honking husky rudder on it or later? Yes, vintage material Matt. I well imagine a few Nordkapp HM owners worldwide could have had a need for that Mariner-block procedure. Was it in your manual? Funnily enough, I don't recall seeing the maneuver in the BCU handbook. :-) Me? Knope. I didn't buy an HM. I knew nothing about sea kayaks in 1980, coming from a canoe and river kayak background. But I knew the HM would limit maneuverability. Just had to look at it (oh, it was nice to look at). I had to beg Derek at Pacific Canoe Base to get me the HS; so, no. I never modified the hull. For some reason, most North American Nordkapps were brought in, in the skeggy HM version. Apparently, owners were supposed to grind the skeg down to fine-tune the tracking to their preference. Few did. Few knew. I learned to paddle my HS, developing big muscles sweeping that old girl for countless hours in all day gales down the west coast, including big open water sorties in winter. I can assure you, there were few if any other paddlers out there at those times back then in those conditions. If I got any blocking action, it was behind a reef - or maybe a Fisheries vessel or whomever was trying to persude me off the water. I got sick of sweeping and had a real horrible experince in big seas off the Hesquiat Bar and then added the deep draft rudder after hanging with Paul Caffyn. So, I was in good company at least, fine sir. After my orthopod told me to give up kayaking due to extreme degenerative shoulder changes, I just started using the rudder even more, tweaked it for heavy duty use and abuse, and didn't look back, though there was this guy from Seattle with skegless, rudderless kayak hull technology that heckled me continuously. :-) Oh, by the way, I love big North American kayaks. They create a fantastic wind shadow when I pull up beside them downwind. Heck, even the lower bow, fat-butt models still completely silhouette by nosy Nordkapp with its weather-vaning rear rudder. Of course, then guys like Turner Wilson can paddle up beside me in their SOF's downwind for a break from the wind for them beside my Nordkapp! :-) DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My Explorer is a nice boat. It is made well, heavy, but solid. It is reasonably maneuverable, but not like the Romany 16. It is appointed with the deck features I prefer. It is not fast, it is not slow. It rolls well, but it doesn't give me the desire or direction to capsize much. If you spend more time in it Mark, you may like it more, or, you may want to consider other designs. Purely up to you. For me it works pretty well. I could just as well be in a Mariner Max and deal with its issues. Either are great choices. Cheers, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Somehow this thread has become something other than just a question "was Mariner the only one to get it right" in reference to extra doodads on a hull shape to make it do things that the design alone didn't do. But at least it's interesting. On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 9:19 PM, <rcgibbert_at_aol.com> wrote: > My Explorer is a nice boat. It is made well, heavy, but solid. It is > reasonably maneuverable, but not like the Romany 16. It is appointed with > the deck features I prefer. It is not fast, it is not slow. It rolls well, > but it doesn't give me the desire or direction to capsize much. If you spend > more time in it Mark, you may like it more, or, you may want to consider > other designs. Purely up to you. For me it works pretty well. I could just > as well be in a Mariner Max and deal with its issues. Either are great > choices. Rob's thoughts on this are interesting given that he also paddles white water in a Jackson kayak. For me, with little interesting in marathon open water journeys, a boat that plays well along the edges of the land and feels light and nimble is what I'm interested in; as long as it's good enough in open water to get me to where I want to paddle and back and doesn't try to throw me off. Any more than 5 miles away and I start thinking about motherships or car ferries. <grin> I was as surprised as anyone to discover that the Express did that job in spades. I expect the Coaster to do just as well once Sterling has patched up its hull. I think I prefer using cleats for towing as opposed to belt tows but frankly haven't practiced either much. We should correct that this season. And deck rigging behind me is like buying things on a credit card my wife writes the checks for; basically, I don't give it a lot of thought as long as my spare paddles are held securely. Doug's comments on the size of a person making a big difference in the boat he (or she) prefers sure seem reasonable to me. Not only that, but as we paddle and play in our boats we all discover things we like and don't like that to other people seem inconsequential. Doug's loyalty to his Nordkap may be that he's just used to it after 25 years. But it also might be that serendipitous blend of boat and body that everyone is hoping to find. Mark might want to paddle a couple of Mariner boats (the Max, probably, based on physical size) and see what he thinks. There should be someone on the CKF list who has one locally. Interestingly enough, there is still a Marilner Max advertised in the Seattle craigslist (although it needs bow repairs). There is also a Mariner Escape in the same ad. I forget the pricing. I can bring one down next month if you want, Mark. <grin> Either of these would be big enough for Mark but the Max is a newer design and smaller cockpit. I have an Escape that I'm planning to store at our Whidbey Island beach getaway-yurt just to make sure I have a ride available there. No need to wear booties in an Escape; I have size 12 feet and I'm pretty sure I could just wear gum boots and fit in just fine. If I could find my gum boots (after our move) I'd test it. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most threads evolve into something else entirely by the time they achieve a certain maturity.? There is a reason for this, in that Aled Williams is provoking the sea paddling world with another outstanding series of designs. There is no longer a single, seemingly monolithic figure such as Derek Hutchinson, hovering over the sport. Or on this side of the Atlantic, John Dowd, John Winters, Chris Cunningham, the Broze's, Nick Schade?or heck, Nigel Foster. There are a myriad of other voices who make the sport interesting such as Doug Alderson and Doug Lloyd, even Ken Whiting is getting invested into sea kayaking. The Brits have fielded Nigel Dennis, Malcolm Pearcy?and Justine Curgenven. There are many, many people who are raising the bar in paddle sports. It is natural to compare and contrast what is recent with what is new(er). I think it is also wise to invest a bit of time in figuring out where our *sport* came from, for that I owe Harvey Golden, the late great John Heath?and Greg Stamer a big hat's off. Cheers, Rob G Somehow this thread has become something other than just a question "was Mariner the only one to get it right" in reference to extra doodads on a hull shape to make it do things that the design alone didn't do. But at least it's interesting. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig, we were bantering back and forth previously: Craig: > Certainly the seat was undeniable genius. And I suppose it does add > complexity in the most basic sense. It's a pretty simple complexity > though. > I would have never thought it would work and never believed I could make > it > work. But it's actually easy. The sliding seat in my rescued Escape has > been > installed for at least 20 years and all I had to do was re-epoxy the rails > to the hull to make it work as good as new. Maybe that's how genius works. I have heard that sand can clog up the ease of adjustability. Of course, sand makes a mockery of many things boat and camping related. :-) Doug: >> The lack of bulkheads was another fantastic, if bold, course of action to >> take. I should know, I have almost irreparable damage to my kayak >> underhull, >> where one can plainly determine the profile of the bulkheads from sever >> cracks. I remember a fellow who first circumnavigated the Charlottes; he >> had >> a Washington-made kayak that he specified without bulkheads, due to the >> heavy surf landings he anticipated. He also found the kayak a pain to >> load >> and unload. Again, not a mass-market appeal. I'd sure like to see boat makers put some extra glass in the hull where the bulkheads go, say a strip or two perhaps between 2 to 6 inches each side of the bulkhead (that would be a strips totaling 4" to 12" tapered to avoid additional stress risers, with the bulkhead centered in the strip. I plan to do so if I ever do a lay-up. I'd also go custom GRP bulkheads with a lipped fit to spread the load bearing. Some boats do come so equipped with said bulkhead, but only in the stock factory position. > Now, it's axiomatic that whatever kayak one owns is the kayak that one > either loves or hates. Just glance over the paddler reviews on > www.paddling.net, for instance. You'd be hard pressed to find many scores > under 9 out of 10. And maybe I'm a convert. A few years back Matt Broze > made > a comment on Paddlewise in which he claimed that simple and almost > automatic > edges make a rudder a useless appendage on a Mariner. My reaction to that > was, basically, "Pfftt." Oddly enough, Matt was right. Imagine my > surprise. > There's nothing worse than a new convert, right? :) I've been reading a number of reviews on that site the last few days (I should be writing my SK articles instead!). Man, you are correct. Glowing reviews everyone. The Nordkapp LV even gets 12 out of 10. Discounting the exaggeration factor, should it be a real 10 out of 10? :-) A 12 out of 10 means I could sip my Tippy Assam tea without sculling for support in a Nordkapp when multitasking! Craig: > Maybe this is where I find myself in the minority of sea kayakers. I have > no > problem with a kayak that does something specific and does it very well. > My > Nimbus Telkwa HV is a wonderful expedition boat (rudder and all) that is > secure, comfortable and safe for long trips. My wife's Nimbus Solander is > perfect for her size and is wonderfully neutral on windy days with scrappy > seas but doesn't carry much of a load. The Express is a terrific > performance > boat that can easily carry gear for a weekend. The Coaster works for play. > Any of these have some crossover so in some sense they can "do it all"; > but > the Coaster can't be a great expedition boat, the Telkwa wouldn't make a > good rock-garden boat, the Solander wouldn't be my choice for surfing. I > suppose the Express comes as close as any of them to a "do it all" boat > but > still has a lack of performance "edge" in the specialties. The buzz words are performance touring, with usually a shorter, bit wider boat for serious coastal play and one a bit longer with more displacement for play and touring. I'm looking for something between those two. I see there's an Explorer LV under $2000.00 on the Body/Boat/Blade website. Tempting maybe, at least to try. Craig: > And, like most w/w paddlers, I don't much care whether the boat is > "pretty". > God knows, the spoon bows and squashed sterns of a w/w playboat or the > bulbous contours of a creekboat bear little resemblance to a "pretty" > kayak > but they sell craploads of them to paddlers who expect the boats to do > specific things. That's fine. Lots of paddlers like the Inuit heritage of the kayak, and like lines to reflect that. I happen to be one of those so inclined. > I really don't think you can get all this in one design; certainly not > without adding skegs, etc. Not that this is bad, mind you (we all know > that > I have no problems with rudders, etc.) but it seems that the majority of > boats have to make compromises to get the form that their customers want > as > well as the handling characteristics. Duane's point seems to have been > that > Mariner got this right; why hasn't anyone else? Skegs and pebbles! Arggg! Skegs and sand! (There's that sand again!!) Kinked cables. Dang! Yeah, no skegs are a good thing. You know, when I first heard about the shorter mariners, I had in my mind a paddler, sitting bolt upright, seat trimmer just right, eyes on the horizon, then looking left, then looking right to counteract the forces of the sea while leaning left, then leaning right respectively, still remaining perpendicular (like a smurff plastic paddler), the kayak carving the course the paddlers wanted it to - all pivoting from this magical, mysterious pivot point near the Mariner's skeggy abaft keel line. Guess it isn't that simple. Doug >> It has to look good too, be able to be maneuver back on course when wave >> and wind conspire to push you around. I don't want a kayak that pops >> hatches >> in open surf, leaks, and one that doesn't crack under the indignation of >> heavy rocky surf landings; one that has at least a bit of secondary (or >> final) stability, and a kayak that you simply are not overtly aware of >> beneath you (one that makes you feel like part of the environment, rather >> than sitting in a big tub). That last point has been mentioned by Mariner >> owners, so I know some are happy, and certainly the responsiveness of >> kayaks >> like the Express suggests that this is a key aspect of kayak "feel" and >> flow. I realize after reading some of the reviews that this notion of kayak fit a feel is a highly subjective one. Heck, when one considers what the surf ski crowd is capable of, it is also so personally preferential for what one designates good contact for boat control. However, I still know what I'm looking for. And I do like something that is low profile and doesn't inhibit paddling. The European kayaks seem to take this into consideration. I also wonder if the newer keyhole cockpits remove some of the former deck profile of older designs. But to be fair to you and others, I haven't paddled a huge variety of kayaks to really have an appreciation of what else is out there. I've never even tried an Avocet, a Skim kayak, etc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: <snipperoo - regarding the Mariner sliding seat> > > I have heard that sand can clog up the ease of adjustability. Of course, > sand makes a mockery of many things boat and camping related. :-) I can hear grains of sand in the mechanism (if that's the right word for such a simple device) and I expect that there would be enough sand to gum it up. But I haven't had a problem with it. The seat and slides form such a loose fit that it seems sand gets thrown out when you move the seat back and forth. The web site says that it is "self cleaning" and I have to say that I've found it to be so. I don't think sand will gum it up but I bet a clay beach would. Interestingly enough, at least one Mariner paddler has said that he takes the sliding seat out to use around the campfire ashore and another, paraplegic, says that he adds wheels to the system so he can move around on the beach!!! I'd sure like to see boat makers put some extra glass in the hull where the > bulkheads go, say a strip or two perhaps between 2 to 6 inches each side > of > the bulkhead (that would be a strips totaling 4" to 12" tapered to avoid > additional stress risers, with the bulkhead centered in the strip. I plan > to > do so if I ever do a lay-up. I'd also go custom GRP bulkheads with a > lipped > fit to spread the load bearing. Some boats do come so equipped with said > bulkhead, but only in the stock factory position. I dropped off my Coaster for repairs at Sterling's Kayaks in Bellingham yesterday and Sterling and I were talking about that. Several Coaster owners have modified their boats to include a rear bulkhead and hatch. Sterling said that he doesn't just butt the bulkheads into the hull but instead wraps them forward so that there is a large bearing surface contacting the hull rather than point contact. That seems to me to be a good method for securing a bulkhead in a boat that will be used in harsh conditions. As far as loading a boat without bulkheads, I had originally thought it would be a pain in the butt ... but (!) I discovered that it wasn't really much of a problem. Since I use drybags in my hatches anyway (just in case) I often found that larger drybags wouldn't go into the hatches unless they were mostly empty. So I'd put the drybag in, then load it and fit it and then add smaller drybags. With the open area fore and aft I just load up drybags and stuff 'em in. I use a paddle to move them forward (or aft) like a muzzle loader tamping down his powder. The method is extremely handy for things like tent poles and spare paddles. I think I could sleep in a Mariner Escape with the seat removed and replaced by a sleeping pad and a nice clear cockpit cover. For Rob Gibbert, Sterling and I also talked about deck designs. He and I agreed that anything you put on your deck is likely to be lost. I put charts under the bungees forward, tether my GPS and keep it on deck, tether my flashlight and keep it on deck, and I put my spare paddle (2-piece) aft under the deck rigging. I really don't like anything else on the decks. The deck rigging on Mariners has been given rave reviews by several paddlers but I took a look at it yesterday with Rob's eyes and I have to say that it does look cluttered. Part of this is the 1980s design. Sterling thinks that he could bring the deck into the 21st century and I tend to agree. He wouldn't touch the hull. FYI: he had one Coaster in the shop for repairs, mine came in and another due in today. I guess those little boats get used. <snippity... regarding how paddlers review the boats and gear they own> > I've been reading a number of reviews on that site the last few days (I > should be writing my SK articles instead!). Man, you are correct. Glowing > reviews everyone. The Nordkapp LV even gets 12 out of 10. Discounting the > exaggeration factor, should it be a real 10 out of 10? :-) A 12 out of 10 > means I could sip my Tippy Assam tea without sculling for support in a > Nordkapp when multitasking! One of the reviewers (I think of an NDK) said that he gave it a review of 10 out of 10 because of how much he spent on the boat! Well, at least he was being truthful. Isn't 12 out of 10 like "giving 120 percent"? It seems to me you could just push that boat out and watch it paddle the rough stuff. > The buzz words are performance touring, with usually a shorter, bit wider > boat for serious coastal play and one a bit longer with more displacement > for play and touring. I'm looking for something between those two. I see > there's an Explorer LV under $2000.00 on the Body/Boat/Blade website. > Tempting maybe, at least to try. Again, maybe my w/w paddling corrupted me. I have no problem with having a boat for a specific purpose. Sure, they all have some crossover but they excel at something. The Coaster at playing in rock gardens and surf or anything that requires agility; the Express for day trips where some speed is nice; and the Nimbus Telkwa HV for carrying a load. The Express has quite a few playful characteristics and so, oddly enough, does the huge Telkwa. The only one of those three that would be a "performance tourer" would be the Express. But I suspect that there are a lot of good boats out there that would also qualify. That's fine. Lots of paddlers like the Inuit heritage of the kayak, and like > lines to reflect that. I happen to be one of those so inclined. Oh, I love the lines reflecting the Inuit heritage too. I especially love the lines of the Greenland boats (for some reason I don't like the baidarka look... I dunno why). I just don't necessarily associate how a boat looks with how it performs. I don't automatically assume that a long kayak will track or that a shorter kayak will turn quickly although generally those would be accurate assumptions. I would love to take one of those week-long courses where you build a SOF kayak to fit you and learn how in the process. I just have to fit it into my schedule. > Skegs and pebbles! Arggg! Skegs and sand! (There's that sand again!!) > Kinked > cables. Dang! Yeah, no skegs are a good thing. You know, when I first > heard > about the shorter mariners, I had in my mind a paddler, sitting bolt > upright, seat trimmer just right, eyes on the horizon, then looking left, > then looking right to counteract the forces of the sea while leaning left, > then leaning right respectively, still remaining perpendicular (like a > smurff plastic paddler), the kayak carving the course the paddlers wanted > it > to - all pivoting from this magical, mysterious pivot point near the > Mariner's skeggy abaft keel line. Guess it isn't that simple. LOL... nope. Everything takes practice. When I first tried a playboat (most of my w/w boats are river runners) I expected it to be able to edge back and forth in a hole with no effort. It just doesn't work that way. > I realize after reading some of the reviews that this notion of kayak fit > a > feel is a highly subjective one. Heck, when one considers what the surf > ski > crowd is capable of, it is also so personally preferential for what one > designates good contact for boat control. However, I still know what I'm > looking for. And I do like something that is low profile and doesn't > inhibit > paddling. The European kayaks seem to take this into consideration. I also > wonder if the newer keyhole cockpits remove some of the former deck > profile > of older designs. But to be fair to you and others, I haven't paddled a > huge > variety of kayaks to really have an appreciation of what else is out > there. > I've never even tried an Avocet, a Skim kayak, etc. As far as I know, the champion of testing paddlers (with the documentation as evidence) is Matt Broze with over 1000 kayak designs tested. I've watched him during several Pt. Townsend paddling seminars testing kayaks for very specific traits. I don't even know all the characteristics he tests for but I do know that he tests for speed, how quickly they turn flat, how quickly they turn edged, how quickly they turn with and without rudders deployed and, for all I know, dozens of other points. Matt is an expert kayaker (and fast!) so his results have a great deal of credibility. If you want to know the numbers for a kayak design, ask Matt. I'd love to see his results in a database available to other paddlers as a basic resource. Besides, everyone knows how much I like raw numbers. <grin> But, as you said, everything in kayaking is so subjective. We so often choose what we like based on what looks "right" to us and then subjectively give it all the characteristics we think it should have. Hence the great reviews on paddling.net for boats that maybe you and I wouldn't think twice about. We probably wouldn't think their kids are cute either. <grin> I also liked your remarks about what constitutes a "compromise" in a kayak design. One hull design can't be good at everything. If it has a lot of rocker it won't track like it is "on rails" and if it tracks like it's "on rails" it can't be nimble and quick to turn. This is why a designer uses rudders and skegs (and even methods of adjusting the hull's shape itself) in an effort to make one hull do everything. Can one boat do everything? Sure. Can it do everything well? Probably not. What Matt and Cam did some 30 years ago is come up with a hull design that do more of everything without additional doodads than most kayaks. Speaking with Sterling yesterday and looking at his hulls made me realize that there are other designs out there that have expanded on the Mariner hulls. But because so many paddlers want the Greenland "look" it takes a lot of work to combine the two philosophies. Matt and Cam didn't try so hard to copy that Inuit "look" and just let the form follow the function. And, like you said, there are a lot more boats to paddle. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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I paddle with all kinds of people who bring along the paddling philosophy they've developed over how long they have been paddling. When trouble starts it is often a series of small things that culminate in a yard sale. Like the paddle float that was clipped onto the rear deck of my friends Mariner Express. She said it was wave proof. I raised my eyebrows, flashed a grin and said, it's your call. Coming back to Hobuck beach from Cape Flattery there was that one last wave that washed it off the deck, unrolled it in small 3 foot waves, extended the length of the tether and broached her along the wave, all the while going eeeeeeeeek. Luckily she stayed in the boat and not go over until someone else could sort her out. Not 30 minutes later another friend, who paddles a Coaster and clipped his paddle float to the rear deck rigging, was playing along a reef front and when a set developed and it was his time to boogie outta there, guess what? Yep, you got it, the *wave proof* paddle float connected to the rear deck rigging washed off, unfurled to the length of its tether, filled with water and broached him along the very wave he desperately wanted to avoid. He was dragged back into the reef and capsized. He completed a roll, luckily not entangling himself in the tether, grabbed the big bag of water, stuffed it on his lap and resumed his hasty paddle out to a protected area to detox from adrenal bingeing. The debrief on the beach went like this: Each of their boats could have provided a secure place to lash the pump and float without subjecting?them to the absconding ways of ocean waves. Failing that, a place could have been found on their life jackets for at least the paddle float. Events were set into motion to rescue the folks failing their inability help themselves. Should a swim occur in those 2 incidents we would not have sat around and waited for them to blow up the float and rescue themselves, so why have them there in the first place? Habits learned some time ago and not means tested for that day. The takeaway for me that day and many more preceding and following is that the more stuff a person puts on his or her deck, the more ocean litter that will occur and more body, boat and blade yard sales to clean up, sometimes in places where it is not advised to do so. It was understood then that none of this is a problem inherent with the boat or more importantly the deck of the boat, it was a problem with how th e operator of the boat thought about what they would bring along for the day and how their expectations for conditions did not reflect reality. There is a reason why whitewater paddlers have nothing on their decks. I have never seen a Sealine deck bag, a set of splits or a paddle float and pump on the deck of a river kayak. In the ocean, though it is a completely different environment, waves steal all kinds of stuff from unwitting paddlers. Basically what is on my deck is a recessed compass, a paddle in the front where the shafts are encased in 90 degree plumbing pipe waste elbows and secured under bungie, a short tow line with krab and a chart. Incidentally, I removed the perimeter lines from the recessed VCP deck fittings one place above where they usually terminate in front of the cockpit. This enables my tethered chart case to be seated on my deck or slid up under the bungie. Although I sometimes tether my pump to the rear deck, most of the time it is wedged behind the seat, quite close to where the float is lashed behind the back band. When I'm on the river there is nothing on front or rear deck. Cheers, Rob G For Rob Gibbert, Sterling and I also talked about deck designs. He and I agreed that anything you put on your deck is likely to be lost. I put charts under the bungees forward, tether my GPS and keep it on deck, tether my flashlight and keep it on deck, and I put my spare paddle (2-piece) aft under the deck rigging. I really don't like anything else on the decks. The deck rigging on Mariners has been given rave reviews by several paddlers but I took a look at it yesterday with Rob's eyes and I have to say that it does look cluttered. Part of this is the 1980s design. Sterling thinks that he could bring the deck into the 21st century and I tend to agree. He wouldn't touch the hull. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My paddle float gets rolled up around my pump and stuck in the cockpit to the side of my seat. Of course it helps that my boat is a bit wide. But I agree that the deck isn't a good place for them. Just rolling my friends Explorer last week his float unfurled to get in the way. I've got an electric bilge pump and would do a reentry roll if I needed to, so my hand pump and float never get used, but even if you do use them, seems like your going to be out of your kayak anyway, why not stow them off the deck. With my paddle float securely stowed, I'm free to lose all the other gear I have rattling around my boat! Mark -----Original Message----- Like the paddle float that was clipped onto the rear deck of my friends Mariner Express. She said it was wave proof. I raised my eyebrows, flashed a grin and said, it's your call. Coming back to Hobuck beach from Cape Flattery there was that one last wave that washed it off the deck, unrolled it in small 3 foot waves, extended the length of the tether and broached her along the wave, all the while going eeeeeeeeek. Luckily she stayed in the boat and not go over until someone else could sort her out. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Substantive issues: Mariner sliding seat - I'm glad you have had good results thus far. And like you said earlier, at least the complications (sliding seat versus rudder and/or skeg) are on the inside of the hull, not the outside. There was some talk from down n' under on PW awhile ago about the reliability of a moving seat in a vessel designed for rough water work. Matt nicked that one good, but I'd wondered about the sliding seat sand contamination issue. I have heard mention of it before; I think you are on to something with the aggregate-size factor. I sell hundreds of dollars a week at my moonlight job, upselling contractors expensive cordless drills. Certain sub-contractor groups keep coming back with complaints about battery packs that hesitate to slide of easily at battery change time. Yeap, they are the drywallers. The drywall dust grit, being super-fine, causes just enough friction to bring grief to their work day. Contoured bulkhead - Valley states their curved form bulkhead allows flexion of the hull, particularly when stress is concentrated on a spot when running aground. To me, that isn't "harsh conditions" but rather every day to-be-expected, especially with a loaded boat and un unevenly "textured" beach are encoutered on the open coast. Some of these issues I've been PO'ed about for decades, nay, many more such issues with kayak production and lack of innovative, if not logical, implementation into the build process. No, I won't give you an itemized list here. I'd expect nothing less from Sterling though, in terms of his good-workmanship, build-proper ethic. Matt put me on to him a while back; the man's a freaking genius, living in relative obscurity (from my perspective, anyway). Loading no-bulkhead boats - I forgot to mention Dan Lewis, a local west coast paddler, at least for a few years, was a big fan of no bulkheads which he felt rendered a bomber kayak that much better. He paddles open west coast in winter...now that's harsh. For day tripping, I still like multiple bulkheads with its cocommitant buoyancy redundancy factors. But, not only do bulkhead-less boats offer superior reductions in stress-fractures, they also limit hatch leakage potentials, hatch blow-out possibilities, in-situ hatch loss in remote locals, and the eventuality of often expensive hatch cover replacements. And not only do hatches leak, hatch rims can sometimes delaminate, allowing further leaks. If I build my own kayak, I'm going with a day hatch behind the seat BUT mounted to the rear bulkhead, and a double-redundancy hatch cover system: a large over-hatch (if a stripper kayak, then a section of deck cut out to make the hatch, followed by a Kajaksport hatch underneath). That way I get double the protection, and a smooth, gorgeous, continuous splash-proof deck, with the UV-protected, out-of-da-way hatch below. Scroll down to the CD Storm; below the hatch is another hatch you can't see: http://www.westcoastpaddler.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=1753 Deck rigging: You are talking to a guy who spent 4 to 5 hours per recessed deck fitting for an individual mold-refit on 20 fittings on one of his epic multi-month Nordkapp rebuilds. But for my next kayak, I'm going to the other extreme, with a full sweep of clear deck. I'll have to bulk-down and smarts-up my PFD-packable gear and get everything else off the deck. Do I really need a pump and paddle float on deck at this vantage in my kayaking career? And why have a deck-mounted tow line? A belt-mounted unit acts as a lifeline tether too, and pseudo reg-required throw-line. The situation with your deck rigging on the older Mariner seems easily fixable. I don't like the Mariner paddle cleats on the foredecks though, but then have I ever taken the time to evaluate the merits? Kayak reviews - I couldn't sleep last night; total insomnia until 4:00am. I read kayak reviews for 6 hours straight! But, I did get a much fuller appreciation of the evolution of the Nordkapp for one thing, and confirmation that other short-torso paddlers like me love a low profile deck too, one none-interfering. And many paddlers described an attribute I was _unable to articulate_ to you in trying to help you understand why I like the Nordkapp hull peculiarities. Reviewers called it a "lively hull." There was observations about how the Nordy's lack of secondary stability compared to the, say, NDK Explorer's, made that last bit of completing a roll just that bit more difficult. That was something that caught me unawares for a number of years of "keeping it wet," swimming, when I first started paddling in the early 80"s. One reviewer said the Nordy sucked at big-water rock gardens, but when she was a blowing 40 knots plus on the open seas, the old Nordkapp was the one he wanted to be in. Explains my paradoxical problems being one who likes both extremes (big waves/wind versus the impact zone). I also see that the Nordkapp classic is rated for sea kayaking races in a faster category than the LV model. And yes, the Mariner handling aspect would address many of the more honest reviews of other brands of kayaks with handling/tracking, maneuverability issues. But like Jerry pointed out, wave effects and wind effect are different issues, whose combined energies present both unique problems and commingled difficulties for paddlers and designers alike. I really think that's why the NDK is so popular. Alex Mathews recently reviewed the Explore for Wavelength, stating it wasn't certain fantastic performance aspects that made the kayak such a classic, for it had non, but its lack of anything overtly wrong made it the grat kayak it is. I guess Matt and Cam's kayaks have things that are overtly right about them, at least in the hull department. Hey, let me come down and try em out sometime, okay? Racing with Matt on Lake Union and trying the odd Mariner out (err, kayak that is) on the open coast hasn't given me enough experience yet with the lineup. SOF anthromorphic fit - an internet Google search reveals there is some controversy on this subject; some cultural Inuit regional discrepancies are cited and even Inuit personal preferences. I've always wondered how one can say, "Build three arm spans" when some designs have huge overhangs compared to others. I do know that kayak industry is trying to catch up with the situation, offering more boat sizes for a given model (must me the ladies have more money now). Ah, money talks. Boat aesthetics - hey Craig, if I lived directly on the open coast, say like at Port Renfrew, I'd have no problem with a kayak whose form followed function like a Coaster. Jump in after work, head out to the local rock garden, play until dinner, come home. Who cares what the boat looks like. But for my main ride, I seem to like some form (form that appeals to me). Certainly my function works better when I see good form. At least when I used to date. :-) Honestly? Okay, as for kayak and kayaking and being a kayaker, I still have a huge problem, and may need a twelve-step program. For years (now read this carefully) I've often only gone out paddling because I love being in my Nordkapp. Especially once I had it dialed in for low profile running in open water and configured for a superb fit. But mostly I don't think I'd go out and paddle for the other reasons most paddlers like to paddle, such as "the journey", the sojourning, the fresh air and tang of salt on the lips, and the classic camaraderie, the back-to-nature ethos, or the environmental intensity of the seascape alone, etc. My wife has a McNulty Huntsman. I hate being in it. I have a Laser SOT. Hate it. I now have a new S&G Forager, and while I'm grateful for a new ride, it's just not the same man. Nothing is the same anymore. Meditative canoing in an open Canadian is the only alternative I allow myself. Even my Necky jive in the surf ain't a heap of solace. It is a sad state of affairs to be in. What kind of paddler am I, when I only really ultimately enjoy being on the water, but in my twitchy, friggin fast Nordkapp getting ship-kicked by mother nature off some god-forsaken headland, wind pounding the inner sanctum of my cold brain cavity, then me sucking up afterwards to the sea gods for yet more indiscretions done outta sight of the Coast Guard, family, God-fear'n church friends and my place-of-employment handlers? 30 years of it. Maybe you were right about me ever being happy in a different boat. I'll keep trying. Step two...hey, those Mariner's look cool, gotta try one. Doug Lloyd, Nordkapptured but Nordkapp-less in Victoria <snipperoo - regarding the Mariner sliding seat> I have heard that sand can clog up the ease of adjustability. Of course, sand makes a mockery of many things boat and camping related. :-) I can hear grains of sand in the mechanism (if that's the right word for such a simple device) and I expect that there would be enough sand to gum it up. But I haven't had a problem with it. The seat and slides form such a loose fit that it seems sand gets thrown out when you move the seat back and forth. The web site says that it is "self cleaning" and I have to say that I've found it to be so. I don't think sand will gum it up but I bet a clay beach would. Interestingly enough, at least one Mariner paddler has said that he takes the sliding seat out to use around the campfire ashore and another, paraplegic, says that he adds wheels to the system so he can move around on the beach!!! I'd sure like to see boat makers put some extra glass in the hull where the bulkheads go, say a strip or two perhaps between 2 to 6 inches each side of the bulkhead (that would be a strips totaling 4" to 12" tapered to avoid additional stress risers, with the bulkhead centered in the strip. I plan to do so if I ever do a lay-up. I'd also go custom GRP bulkheads with a lipped fit to spread the load bearing. Some boats do come so equipped with said bulkhead, but only in the stock factory position. I dropped off my Coaster for repairs at Sterling's Kayaks in Bellingham yesterday and Sterling and I were talking about that. Several Coaster owners have modified their boats to include a rear bulkhead and hatch. Sterling said that he doesn't just butt the bulkheads into the hull but instead wraps them forward so that there is a large bearing surface contacting the hull rather than point contact. That seems to me to be a good method for securing a bulkhead in a boat that will be used in harsh conditions. As far as loading a boat without bulkheads, I had originally thought it would be a pain in the butt ... but (!) I discovered that it wasn't really much of a problem. Since I use drybags in my hatches anyway (just in case) I often found that larger drybags wouldn't go into the hatches unless they were mostly empty. So I'd put the drybag in, then load it and fit it and then add smaller drybags. With the open area fore and aft I just load up drybags and stuff 'em in. I use a paddle to move them forward (or aft) like a muzzle loader tamping down his powder. The method is extremely handy for things like tent poles and spare paddles. I think I could sleep in a Mariner Escape with the seat removed and replaced by a sleeping pad and a nice clear cockpit cover. For Rob Gibbert, Sterling and I also talked about deck designs. He and I agreed that anything you put on your deck is likely to be lost. I put charts under the bungees forward, tether my GPS and keep it on deck, tether my flashlight and keep it on deck, and I put my spare paddle (2-piece) aft under the deck rigging. I really don't like anything else on the decks. The deck rigging on Mariners has been given rave reviews by several paddlers but I took a look at it yesterday with Rob's eyes and I have to say that it does look cluttered. Part of this is the 1980s design. Sterling thinks that he could bring the deck into the 21st century and I tend to agree. He wouldn't touch the hull. FYI: he had one Coaster in the shop for repairs, mine came in and another due in today. I guess those little boats get used. <snippity... regarding how paddlers review the boats and gear they own> I've been reading a number of reviews on that site the last few days (I should be writing my SK articles instead!). Man, you are correct. Glowing reviews everyone. The Nordkapp LV even gets 12 out of 10. Discounting the exaggeration factor, should it be a real 10 out of 10? :-) A 12 out of 10 means I could sip my Tippy Assam tea without sculling for support in a Nordkapp when multitasking! One of the reviewers (I think of an NDK) said that he gave it a review of 10 out of 10 because of how much he spent on the boat! Well, at least he was being truthful. Isn't 12 out of 10 like "giving 120 percent"? It seems to me you could just push that boat out and watch it paddle the rough stuff. The buzz words are performance touring, with usually a shorter, bit wider boat for serious coastal play and one a bit longer with more displacement for play and touring. I'm looking for something between those two. I see there's an Explorer LV under $2000.00 on the Body/Boat/Blade website. Tempting maybe, at least to try. Again, maybe my w/w paddling corrupted me. I have no problem with having a boat for a specific purpose. Sure, they all have some crossover but they excel at something. The Coaster at playing in rock gardens and surf or anything that requires agility; the Express for day trips where some speed is nice; and the Nimbus Telkwa HV for carrying a load. The Express has quite a few playful characteristics and so, oddly enough, does the huge Telkwa. The only one of those three that would be a "performance tourer" would be the Express. But I suspect that there are a lot of good boats out there that would also qualify. That's fine. Lots of paddlers like the Inuit heritage of the kayak, and like lines to reflect that. I happen to be one of those so inclined. Oh, I love the lines reflecting the Inuit heritage too. I especially love the lines of the Greenland boats (for some reason I don't like the baidarka look... I dunno why). I just don't necessarily associate how a boat looks with how it performs. I don't automatically assume that a long kayak will track or that a shorter kayak will turn quickly although generally those would be accurate assumptions. I would love to take one of those week-long courses where you build a SOF kayak to fit you and learn how in the process. I just have to fit it into my schedule. Skegs and pebbles! Arggg! Skegs and sand! (There's that sand again!!) Kinked cables. Dang! Yeah, no skegs are a good thing. You know, when I first heard about the shorter mariners, I had in my mind a paddler, sitting bolt upright, seat trimmer just right, eyes on the horizon, then looking left, then looking right to counteract the forces of the sea while leaning left, then leaning right respectively, still remaining perpendicular (like a smurff plastic paddler), the kayak carving the course the paddlers wanted it to - all pivoting from this magical, mysterious pivot point near the Mariner's skeggy abaft keel line. Guess it isn't that simple. LOL... nope. Everything takes practice. When I first tried a playboat (most of my w/w boats are river runners) I expected it to be able to edge back and forth in a hole with no effort. It just doesn't work that way. I realize after reading some of the reviews that this notion of kayak fit a feel is a highly subjective one. Heck, when one considers what the surf ski crowd is capable of, it is also so personally preferential for what one designates good contact for boat control. However, I still know what I'm looking for. And I do like something that is low profile and doesn't inhibit paddling. The European kayaks seem to take this into consideration. I also wonder if the newer keyhole cockpits remove some of the former deck profile of older designs. But to be fair to you and others, I haven't paddled a huge variety of kayaks to really have an appreciation of what else is out there. I've never even tried an Avocet, a Skim kayak, etc. As far as I know, the champion of testing paddlers (with the documentation as evidence) is Matt Broze with over 1000 kayak designs tested. I've watched him during several Pt. Townsend paddling seminars testing kayaks for very specific traits. I don't even know all the characteristics he tests for but I do know that he tests for speed, how quickly they turn flat, how quickly they turn edged, how quickly they turn with and without rudders deployed and, for all I know, dozens of other points. Matt is an expert kayaker (and fast!) so his results have a great deal of credibility. If you want to know the numbers for a kayak design, ask Matt. I'd love to see his results in a database available to other paddlers as a basic resource. Besides, everyone knows how much I like raw numbers. <grin> But, as you said, everything in kayaking is so subjective. We so often choose what we like based on what looks "right" to us and then subjectively give it all the characteristics we think it should have. Hence the great reviews on paddling.net for boats that maybe you and I wouldn't think twice about. We probably wouldn't think their kids are cute either. <grin> I also liked your remarks about what constitutes a "compromise" in a kayak design. One hull design can't be good at everything. If it has a lot of rocker it won't track like it is "on rails" and if it tracks like it's "on rails" it can't be nimble and quick to turn. This is why a designer uses rudders and skegs (and even methods of adjusting the hull's shape itself) in an effort to make one hull do everything. Can one boat do everything? Sure. Can it do everything well? Probably not. What Matt and Cam did some 30 years ago is come up with a hull design that do more of everything without additional doodads than most kayaks. Speaking with Sterling yesterday and looking at his hulls made me realize that there are other designs out there that have expanded on the Mariner hulls. But because so many paddlers want the Greenland "look" it takes a lot of work to combine the two philosophies. Matt and Cam didn't try so hard to copy that Inuit "look" and just let the form follow the function. And, like you said, there are a lot more boats to paddle. Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: <el snippo> > > I'd expect nothing less from Sterling though, in terms of his > good-workmanship, build-proper ethic. Matt put me on to him a while back; > the man's a freaking genius, living in relative obscurity (from my > perspective, anyway). > I was impressed with his shop and his people who were checking in with him regarding quality issues so often while he and I chatted that I began to feel guilty for taking him away from his work. The Ice Kap (Pam just bought one) is a boat I think you could fall in love with. > a double-redundancy hatch cover system: a large over-hatch (if a stripper > kayak, then a section of deck cut out to make the hatch, followed by a > Kajaksport hatch underneath). That way I get double the protection, and > a smooth, gorgeous, continuous splash-proof deck, with the UV-protected, > out-of-da-way hatch below. > One of the things I like about the big Telkwa HV (which, by the way, is also a boat that Sterling paddles) and its hatches. I also liked the early adoption of the paddlefloat straps (which Sterling has improved upon with the Ice Kap). Sterling has a close association with Nimbus. > > > > Deck rigging: You are talking to a guy who spent 4 to 5 hours per recessed > deck fitting for an individual mold-refit on 20 fittings on one of his epic > multi-month Nordkapp rebuilds. But for my next kayak, I'm going to the other > extreme, with a full sweep of clear deck. > I'm just afraid that if I change anything I'll kick myself later. Stuff on the back deck doesn't bother me (I can't twist around enough to even look back very easily). Matt's deck rigging looks so... so.... complicated that it just *must* be super useful. I'm just too dense to figure out how to use it more effectively. LOL > The situation with your deck rigging on the older Mariner seems easily > fixable. I don't like the Mariner paddle cleats on the foredecks though, but > then have I ever taken the time to evaluate the merits? > I'm sure there is one. Paddle park? Tow cleat? The cleats don't interfere with any of my paddling so I'll let 'em act as plugs for the holes in the deck they drilled to mount them until I decide otherwise. But deck rigging is the easiest thing to fix if you don't like it. > > Kayak reviews - I couldn't sleep last night; total insomnia until 4:00am. > I read kayak reviews for 6 hours straight! > I wish I had a better handle on just how valuable reviews are. Sea Kayaker is probably the best with its lineup of various paddlers of various gender/size categories. By the time we are qualified to review kayaks we're no longer able to hide our prejudices. LOL Reviewers called it a "lively hull." There was observations about how the > Nordy's lack of secondary stability compared to the, say, NDK Explorer's, > made that last bit of completing a roll just that bit more difficult. > Now, see... this is where I completely lose touch with the thread. When I came back to sea kayaks I was stunned to find them so much less stable than white water kayaks. Modern w/w boats are lots wider of course (there has to be some place for your knees to go when you stuff a 6'2" frame into a 6'0" playboat) which accounts for the initial stability; but they have impressive secondary stability too (so you can edge to and fro in eddies). The only "twitch" factor in a w/w boat is the lateral (directional) stability which, of course, is practically non-existent. Imagine my surprise when people tell me that a sea kayak with 120 gallons of volume is "too small" for me (my biggest w/w boat is 90 gallons and supports me just fine). Why I would actually seek out a twitchy boat to take into white water remains a mystery to me. Maybe I'm just too much of an ol' fart but I'm perfectly capable of screwing up a move all by myself; I don't want my kayak to step in and make it worse. But I don't want it so stable that it has no performance either. Another thing I like about the Mariners. > > And yes, the Mariner handling aspect would address many of the more honest > reviews of other brands of kayaks with handling/tracking, maneuverability > issues. But like Jerry pointed out, wave effects and wind effect are > different issues, whose combined energies present both unique problems and > commingled difficulties for paddlers and designers alike. > When I first got the Express last year and my son and I went on a weekend trip into upper Priest Lake in Idaho, I let him have the Nimbus because.... well... because it was a new boat to me and I wanted it to myself. The first thing that surprised me was that I could stuff about 90% as much into the 16 foot Express (with no hatches) as we could get into the Nimbus. Of course, the hatches in the Nimbus meant that we could put things we might want (like, say... another hat) on top in a hatch and it would be just fine under that double-cover system. The second surprise was when the southerly wind kicked up. It had a lot of fetch and the whitecaps were hitting us pretty hard but the Express - despite being loaded down by both me and the crap I'd put into it - rode over them. Neither kayak was much affected by the wind but the Nimbus actually was taking more water over it than the Express. Dan had not secured his skirt that well (it's just a lake... after all) and he got a nice bath out of the ride. The ability of that Mariner hull to ride over and not through big waves was demonstrated later that month in the San Juans. I'm sure Matt had mentioned it but I was surprised, nevertheless. > Hey, let me come down and try em out sometime, okay? Racing with Matt on > Lake Union and trying the odd Mariner out (err, kayak that is) on the open > coast hasn't given me enough experience yet with the lineup. > You bet... In fact we just bought a nice lot on Whidbey Island that's in a beach community (Beverly Beach near Freeland) with 3200 feet of private beach that's perfect for launching. Only 20 miles from Deception Pass too. We're going to put up a yurt for a cabin and that should leave lots of room for friends to drop by and pitch tents. Parking is somewhat slim but we can clog the road; no one drives on it anyway. LOL. You can bring the family down. I have enough kayaks for everyone. LOL > SOF anthromorphic fit - an internet Google search reveals there is some > controversy on this subject; some cultural Inuit regional discrepancies are > cited and even Inuit personal preferences. I've always wondered how one can > say, "Build three arm spans" when some designs have huge overhangs compared > to others. I do know that kayak industry is trying to catch up with the > situation, offering more boat sizes for a given model (must me the ladies > have more money now). Ah, money talks. > Ladies have always controlled money; now they make it too. :) > Boat aesthetics - hey Craig, if I lived directly on the open coast, say > like at Port Renfrew, I'd have no problem with a kayak whose form followed > function like a Coaster. Jump in after work, head out to the local rock > garden, play until dinner, come home. Who cares what the boat looks like. > But for my main ride, I seem to like some form (form that appeals to me). > Certainly my function works better when I see good form. At least when I > used to date. :-) > One of the Coaster reviews on paddling.net mentions that he uses his Coaster for paddling sloughs and ponds and likes its small size and light weight. No mention of surfing or rock gardens. Then he also says that his ten year old daughter loves the Coaster because it's so easy to paddle. Interesting take on a boat that's not exactly famous as a kid's boat. But somehow not surprising. > Honestly? Okay, as for kayak and kayaking and being a kayaker, I still > have a huge problem, and may need a twelve-step program. > Welcome to your mid-life crisis. Stay away from Harley motorcycles, Porsche sports cars and precocious 17 year old girls. <grin> I enjoyed my first one so much I had a couple more. The major symptom is a pathetic attempt to recover our lost youth or, worse yet, what we would have liked our lost youth to have been. Ever notice all those old chopped, leaded and channeled 1932 Fords are driven by 60 year old guys? With us, of course, it's gotta float. Maybe you were right about me ever being happy in a different boat. I'll > keep trying. Step two...hey, those Mariner's look cool, gotta try one. > It would be more than interesting to see how you like a Coaster in Deception Pass during a nice ebb. We'll only be a walk-on ride on the ferry away. You go get your passport and I'll go get mine. I plan on spending mucho time in the Gulf Islands over the next few years. The mutha ship will cut the San Juans down to size. LOL Craig Jungers Moses Lake, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Doug Lloyd <douglloyd_at_shaw.ca> wrote: I'm still thinking a lowered Nordkapp LV might be the perfect combination of form, hull speed, maneuverability, and touring potential. I will keep an open mind. I still am disappointed that local kayak retail stores largely ignore the segment of the paddling community that is interested in more than just touring kayaks. Craig replied: An open mind is probably the safest bet right now. Things are changing. I wouldn't be surprised to see more demand for "playboats" that are out of the traditional mould as 20-somethings move from w/w and into coastal play. There are already articles in the w/w mags where paddlers are saying things like, "I thought ocean paddling was for wimps but they showed me the way." That's where I'm at right now - trying to figure out if I really need a long kayak for tripping. Busy with family and lots of ocean playground relatively close, a playboat might be in order for short-duration fun potentiality. Heck, it wouldn't need to be reinforced to 100 pounds, as I could actually steer around rocks instead of smashing up and over them. I'm anxious to try out the Whisky 16 from Point 65, though it might be too much of a tub - it has a huge weight carrying capacity. I've been drawing up my own plans, scaling dimensions and working out deck configurations for both a strip-built and a GRP version with more form. I was searching deep on the web and found something exactly like I was anticipating. I contacted Trinity SeaKayaking in Newfoundland today; they sell the EasternIsland hand laid GRP kayaks by one of their local builders, the one called the Makkovik being the one I'd envisioned and is now in production. They are coming out with some new models in a couple of weeks on their web site. I don't think production is high, kind of like the Rockpool kayaks (the reason why the Tiderace kayaks went to Poland). So, don't anyone order one until I've made my mind up! http://northwestatlantic.blogspot.com/2006/12/new-kayak-model.html So at 50 years old, I still got some ocean play time left in me. Just gotta finish that bye-bye Nordy 12 step program! Craig again: As for me, I doubt seriously that I'll do any trips longer than an overnight or two and the only open water will be to get to where the fun is. And even that will be toned down. Maybe it's just spring time but I've noticed arthritis in my hands lately and it's started to make me worried about paddling distances. I may have moved to the muthah ship just in time. I only hope the engine starts. LOL I really enjoyed this discussion Doug. Thanks. :) Okay, I'll stop the discussion now. Good luck with that arth-u-ritis thing. I used to watch my grown father cry with it, his hands dipped in hot wax. Funny, I was just thinking what has happened to all those Paddlewisers from about five years ago - the list used to be very active, even Nick's bulletin board warned of 50 emails a day. Many of the list members were 65 to 70 years old. One doesn't hear from them much any more. And Matt never groaned after a day on the ski slopes back then. Well, I'm good to go once I get my groove back (a shorter and wider one maybe). I'll be paddling until they put a toe tag on this kelp-head bucko, hopefully long after a lot of you have gone on to, what was that, oblivion? But I'll be right behind ya. None of us can stay at sea forever. But oh boy, can it be a lot of fun until then!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the discussion too, Craig - you man with a bazillion great moments in his life sailing on the sea and living large on the land. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, things are evolving, decomposing, recomposing; developments taking place, new kids on the block...and quietly, in the background, the Greenlandic rebellion swells. Resistance is futile... DL > Most threads evolve into something else entirely by the time they achieve > a certain maturity.? There is a reason for this, in that Aled Williams is > provoking the sea paddling world with another outstanding series of > designs. There is no longer a single, seemingly monolithic figure such as > Derek Hutchinson, hovering over the sport. Or on this side of the > Atlantic, John Dowd, John Winters, Chris Cunningham, the Broze's, Nick > Schade?or heck, Nigel Foster. There are a myriad of other voices who make > the sport interesting such as Doug Alderson and Doug Lloyd, even Ken > Whiting is getting invested into sea kayaking. The Brits have fielded > Nigel Dennis, Malcolm Pearcy?and Justine Curgenven. There are many, many > people who are raising the bar in paddle sports. It is natural to compare > and contrast what is recent with what is new(er). I think it is also wise > to invest a bit of time in figuring out where our *sport* came from, for > that I owe Harvey Golden, the late great John Heath?and > Greg Stamer a big hat's off. > > Cheers, > > Rob G > > > > > > Somehow this thread has become something other than just a question "was > Mariner the only one to get it right" in reference to extra doodads on a > hull shape to make it do things that the design alone didn't do. But at > least it's interesting. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've gone Aleut. I will resist. Right down to which way I hold the spine on the paddle. Jim et al On Mar 18, 2008, at 8:32 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > Yes, things are evolving, decomposing, recomposing; developments > taking place, new kids on the block...and quietly, in the > background, the Greenlandic rebellion swells. Resistance is futile... > > DL Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Whoa, Dude. Radical. Quoting James Farrelly <JFarrelly5_at_comcast.net>: > I've gone Aleut. I will resist. Right down to which way I hold the > spine on the paddle. > > Jim et al > > On Mar 18, 2008, at 8:32 PM, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> Yes, things are evolving, decomposing, recomposing; developments >> taking place, new kids on the block...and quietly, in the >> background, the Greenlandic rebellion swells. Resistance is futile... >> >> DL > > Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I did something equally sinister. I bucked the "I was a whitewater paddler and now I'm a sea paddler" trend. I am paddling WAY more whitewater than saltwater these days. Don't get me wrong, the ocean is majestic and?one of the things?I live for, however, screaming through a class 3 or 4 mist and moss drenched drop is a rite in and of it's own. In Washington state we can actually paddle whitewater all year long, drainage by drainage and by summertime, the coast isn't 20 feet and 40 knots, what's not to love about that? Cheers, Rob G PS: Doug, I'm so glad you got your health back. A man pining for a rock garden is an awesome force to reckon with. Yes, things are evolving, decomposing, recomposing; developments taking place, new kids on the block...and quietly, in the background, the Greenlandic rebellion swells. Resistance is futile...? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Craig wrote: >>>>I'm just afraid that if I change anything I'll kick myself later. Stuff on the back deck doesn't bother me (I can't twist around enough to even look back very easily). Matt's deck rigging looks so... so.... complicated that it just *must* be super useful. I'm just too dense to figure out how to use it more effectively. LOL<<<<<< Maybe I should remind you all those others who bought their Mariner kayaks used that there are detailed direction to using the deck rigging and other features like the sliding seat in one of the manuals on our website. I put the pump and paddlefloat under the deck and held in the cockpit area where I can easily get them when I need them (and our rescue float had a 1" Fastex buckle that could attach it firmly to a cord either in the cockpit or on the deck). If the paddlers whose paddle float unrolled and caught in the surf were using our paddle float they must have only fastened it to the deck using the security clip on the end of the bungie line meant to secure it so it can't blow away in use rather than the Fastex buckle. I've been known to carry some pretty big gear loads on the back deck and always carry my spare paddle there. The only thing I recall ever losing were a filet knife and its sheath I had only held down by the chart bungies (and temporarily, the hat off my head) when on departing Raft Cove on the west coast of Vancouver Island a big sneaker wave broke right over my head when most of the waves were so much smaller that I didn't even think I would get wet, much less possibly I might have the need for the helmet I had with me but wasn't wearing. Oh, I remember one more thing, a terrycloth hat once blew off my head in a gust of wind near Seattle's University Bridge and sank before I could get turned around to recover it. Oh yeah, there was the time my watch caught on some clothing when I was boat testing behind my shop. It popped a pin on the band and sank before I could grab it. Oh yeah, there was the time I was dodging a long oar in after a last second entry wearing street cloths in fun kayak race at Lake Unions wooden boat festival on fourth of July weekend and capsized one of Chris Cunningham's skin boats. I should have thought to grab my unteathered eyeglasses rather than try to roll with that unfamiliar boat and paddle (that looked to be made from a broomstick). As it was, I didn't realize my glasses were gone until I was back on shore. The memories of loss have stopped flooding back now so I don't think there were other incidents other than when the chart case kept falling off my spraydeck (no deck bungees on the Chinook I was using and I needed to constantly check the chart) while paddling in the calm of Florida's mangrove channels looking for Manatees and trying (as group navigator and paid navigation instructor) to not to get us lost in the maze of channels that all looked about the same from a kayak. Luckily the chart case floated and if I had lost it, it would have only been an embarrassment because my "students" all had charts as well. Speaking of the sliding seat I've never heard of anyone who, once they learned how to use, it ever had it jam up on them so it couldn't slide. I have heard the criticism that it will jam with sand or pebbles numerous times though, always from those who never tried it themselves. I once dumped about an inch of sand in and around the tracks to point out to one competitor/critic that that wouldn't jam it like he was telling everyone it would. He thought there must be some size of sharp pointed tetrahedron shaped gravel that might jam it. I guess it is hard to give up ones advertising (dagger) points. I doubt even that little tetrahedrons would do it but since I can't try every size of crushed rock (and am sure not likely to find many sharp cornered stones rolling around in the surf) where they might actually get into the kayak so I'll probably never know. I'm sure what if a bag of dry Portland Cement was to bury the tracks and then get a little wet and sat still for a few hours that would keep the seat from sliding. In the old days (1980's) when ours were some of the few kayaks to have harder chines (and all river kayaks were very rounded) I used to hear a lot of folks tell me they had heard that hard chines will trip you up in the surf. One doesn't hear that much anymore. Thats probably because a lot more people today have had experience with hard chines to no that isn't true. It is amazing how a criticism with no merit can spread among people who have no experience but to whom it either seems logical or they heard it from a source they believe. There are a lot of red hearings thrown around out there to divert ones attention alongside the path to "truth" without the even slightest experience to back them up. Around the same time the British and Ken Fink were telling everyone that a bigger cockpit is not secure and the spraydeck will get blown off in waves or the paddler will be "forcibly ejected" from the kayak in small surf. This is hard to take when you just watched (and photographed) your brother who had been heading out though the surf when two big soups overlapped just as the hit him and buried the huge volume Escape so deep in the surf that only about 18" of bow and one paddle blade was visible in the picture and before I could wind on another shot the kayak was launched straight up by its buoyancy like a Polaris missle launching from a submarine until the stern had completely cleared the water. My brother and the Escape pirouetted gracefully around and landed upright and facing the beach, spraydeck still attached. How many British kayaks do you sea to day with those little ocean cockpits? Funny thing is the only cockpit (that wasn't a slippery plastic kayak) that had its spraydeck popped of by a wave when I was paddling it was one of Derek's 22 by 15" Baidarka ocean cockpits. This wasn't even in surf. A couple of waves came together while I was sitting still and peaked up and the crest landed on the spraydeck. I didn't blame the small cockpit but rather the taut nylon skirt with the too wimpy shock cord. Doug, Actually I suffer a lot less from skiing now than I did five years ago because then I was working too hard and didn't get to go skiing as often to stay in shape for it. At 62 I still ski much as I did in my twenties when I was competing nationally. The main difference is now I don't do it every day as it takes at least one day to recover. Still I hear that sirens call to come experience the violence and chaos of high speed in the moguls. Mountaim biking at high peed in root infested single track or skipping off wind waves while riding a big breaker has a similar rush. These days not only do I wear a helmet but also hockey hip and shoulder pads in deference to the more brittle bones reported to occur among the geriatric set. >From my experience testing a lot of kayak I can tell you that Sea Kayaker does the best reviews. Unfortunately they won't call a spade a spade and tell you what is a fatal flaw and what is a mild inconvience. The reader is left to sort that out for themselves. Till the information is far better and more fair that any other reviews I've seen. The owners reviews on Paddling.net are mostly a joke to me. A score of 8 or 9 is actually likely to be a better score than a 10. All a 10 tells you is the owner is suffering from "cognative dissonance" and after paying so much for the kayak they are unlikely to admit it is anything but perfect even to themselves. Some of the worst kayaks I know of get almost all 10's. I have found that nearly always those owners who are critical of some aspect of their boat almost always get it right. At least for now ignore the scores and read the comments closely. The owners are who is most likely to know the pros and cons of their kayak (at least if they have enough experience to recognize them). They have likely paddled there kayak in far more conditions than even Sea Kayaker's expert testers. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with you, Matt. I don't think it is the issue of the cockpit dimensions so much as how the cockpit is shaped, what features for holding on are available and the quality of the spray deck. My river boats have much better cockpits for both holding on and ingress and egress and they are bigger and wider than my sea boats. The thigh hooks are on my Jackson and Pyranha boats make my sea boats look silly. The quality of spray deck I use in freshwater is also far superior to what I use on sea boats. The latter issue is merely because I haven't replaced my neoprene shock cord designs for the sea boats with the Mountain Surf DuroRing randed skirt. I wouldn't even consider buying another shock cord design deck after seeing how secure and dry my Mountain Surf randed deck is. It is a bitch getting it on the rim on a cold morning, though. Cheers, Rob G Around the same time the British and Ken Fink were telling everyone that a bigger cockpit is not secure and the spraydeck will get blown off in waves or the paddler will be "forcibly ejected" from the kayak in small surf. This is hard to take when you just watched (and photographed) your brother who had been heading out though the surf when two big soups overlapped just as the hit him and buried the huge volume Escape so deep in the surf that only about 18" of bow and one paddle blade was visible in the picture and before I could wind on another shot the kayak was launched straight up by its buoyancy like a Polaris missle launching from a submarine until the stern had completely cleared the water. My brother and the Escape pirouetted gracefully around and landed upright and facing the beach, spraydeck still attached. How many British kayaks do you sea to day with those little ocean cockpits? Funny thing is the only cockpit (that wasn't a slippery plastic kayak) that had its spraydeck popped of by a wave when I was paddling it was one of Derek's 22 by 15" Baidarka ocean cockpits. This wasn't even in surf. A couple of waves came together while I was sitting still and peaked up and the crest landed on the spraydeck. I didn't blame the small cockpit but rather the taut nylon skirt with the too wimpy shock cord. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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