I have received a question off list about the difference between weathercocking and weather helm. Maybe the list will find this helpful. Weathercocking - To have a tendency to veer in the direction of the wind. Weather helm - The rudder angle used to counteract the tendency of a boat to turn into the wind. When a boat has "weather helm" it means the boat has a tendency to turn into the wind. Thus, if a boat has weather helm it weathercocks. People who sail seem to prefer to say the "boat has weather helm" while sea kayakers seem more comfortable saying "the boat weathercocks". I was also asked about the oft quoted 10% increase in drag caused by rudders. I wasn't present so can't really comment on the validity of this Before doing so or before accepting it as gospel I would want to know the rudder area, the area of the boat, if the rudder vibrated or wobbled in its head, if the rudder was locked fore and aft, what kind of surface finish it had, what kind of section shape it had, what kind of edge treatment it had and if the results reasonably conform to the resistance one would calculate using the normally used formulas for calculating resistance. That information would help in determining the accuracy of the tank results and to what degree one can apply the results to all rudders. As many have pointed out, the tank measures resistance in a limited range of conditions and that can tell you a lot about boats. It doesn't, however, tell the whole story. For example, the rudder may add x% of resistance but may reduce the overall effort required to paddle the boat under certain conditions. Having heard so many paddlers tell me how much they like their rudders I suspect that rudders are not the great evil that I once thought. Of course, I will get drummed out of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers for saying that but what the hell. I still feel rudder design could improve so maybe I can keep an associate membership in the church. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All these comments on weathercocking, etc.: I've noticed my Sea Lion does it when empty. However, when I'm inside, if I stop paddling in a wind and allow the boat to reach equilibrium, the hull gradually pivots about my weight and stabilizes perpendicular to the wind direction. I don't know what this is called and I wonder if general design makes a boat do one or another. (I'm not complaining: the pivoting is minor, so it's more a feature than a bug.) 735769 wrote: > I have received a question off list about the difference between > weathercocking and weather helm. Maybe the list will find this helpful. > > Weathercocking - To have a tendency to veer in the direction of the wind. > > Weather helm - The rudder angle used to counteract the tendency of a boat to > turn into the wind. > > When a boat has "weather helm" it means the boat has a tendency to turn into > the wind. Thus, if a boat has weather helm it weathercocks. > > People who sail seem to prefer to say the "boat has weather helm" while sea > kayakers seem more comfortable saying "the boat weathercocks". > > I was also asked about the oft quoted 10% increase in drag caused by > rudders. I wasn't present so can't really comment on the validity of this > Before doing so or before accepting it as gospel I would want to know the > rudder area, the area of the boat, if the rudder vibrated or wobbled in its > head, if the rudder was locked fore and aft, what kind of surface finish it > had, what kind of section shape it had, what kind of edge treatment it had > and if the results reasonably conform to the resistance one would calculate > using the normally used formulas for calculating resistance. > > That information would help in determining the accuracy of the tank results > and to what degree one can apply the results to all rudders. > > As many have pointed out, the tank measures resistance in a limited range of > conditions and that can tell you a lot about boats. It doesn't, however, > tell the whole story. For example, the rudder may add x% of resistance but > may reduce the overall effort required to paddle the boat under certain > conditions. Having heard so many paddlers tell me how much they like their > rudders I suspect that rudders are not the great evil that I once thought. > Of course, I will get drummed out of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless > Paddlers for saying that but what the hell. I still feel rudder design could > improve so maybe I can keep an associate membership in the church. :-) > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> <SNIP> >I was also asked about the oft quoted 10% increase in drag caused by >rudders. I wasn't present so can't really comment on the validity of this >Before doing so or before accepting it as gospel I would want to know the >rudder area, the area of the boat, if the rudder vibrated or wobbled in its >head, if the rudder was locked fore and aft, what kind of surface finish it >had, what kind of section shape it had, what kind of edge treatment it had >and if the results reasonably conform to the resistance one would calculate >using the normally used formulas for calculating resistance. > >That information would help in determining the accuracy of the tank results >and to what degree one can apply the results to all rudders. <SNIP> Okay, here is what I know about that. I was at the towing tank the day before observing the tests and trying to talk the testers to run a rudder down test (and also to try an old scratched up Boat which I had vs. a brand new one with a shiny bottom which they had already tested). I was told they were there to compare boats not to do experiments. However the next day they did test a boat with a rudder at 3 knots. It was either the Eddyline Wind Dancer or the Current Designs Pisces. When I asked much later, my informant had forgotten which one it was. It probably doesn't matter much because both had very similar rudders at the time. The rudder was a long narrow (high aspect ratio) cut from either 1/8" aluminum or if the Eddyline probably about 3/16" thick and of fiberglass with only the edges rounded (not shaped). Both were smooth and flat sided. The rudder was left free to drag behind (not fixed in place). I have not ever seen this kind of rudder cavitate (however the fixed fins on some skegs cavitate so bad you can feel the vibration through the kayak). The data on the kayaks is in the Spring 1987 issue of Sea Kayaker (but it may be in error--there is evidence some of it doesn't agree with Nautilus calculations--but in the case of the Wind Dancer Nautilus numbers exist). I don't know the rudder area but they were probably about 10 to 20% bigger than a Feathercraft single rudder in wetted area. After finding 10% more drag than the 3 knot test with the rudder up the testers thought there must have made some mistake since doing the wetted surface calculations suggested a lot less drag. They ran the test again and again got 10% more drag. All the other retests that were done also were within 1% error. They still didn't believe the results and never published them. The editor at the time was John Dowd (a very big fan of rudders--who once likened a skeg to deodorant and a rudder to perfume). Maybe that's why I am so allergic to perfume. Unfortunately I had taken my video camera home with me or we could check the tapes to see if there was any noticeable cavitation (but I doubt it because the rudder was not fixed so unlikely to get into a resonance. During the previous tests the lower aspect ratio rudder on the Eskimo 18-6 added 8% to the drag but these tests had been very flawed for several reasons from a poor sensor to the lack of turbulence induction so the results varied widely on retests. My guess is that there is more drag than the wetted surface would indicate because of the blunter entry and flat sides all the surface was in turbulent flow and because of the deep draft of the rudder most of the water it was slicing through had not been set in motion yet by the hull so the water was flowing relatively faster over the rudder surface than over much of the rest of the kayak where drag further forward set the water in the boundary layer in motion. This is only a guess and may be way off base. Now here is a case where we might be able to use data from centerboards or better yet surface piercing foils that probably already exists. Anybody have access to this kind of data? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > ...<snip>... Having heard so many paddlers tell me how much they like their > rudders I suspect that rudders are not the great evil that I once thought. > Of course, I will get drummed out of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless > Paddlers for saying that but what the hell. I still feel rudder design could > improve so maybe I can keep an associate membership in the church. :-) Can anyone tell me more about this church? I have been trying to find these folks who believe that rudders are a "great evil", but have had very limited success. Many years ago, when I lived in California, I did find one paddler who was apparently a member. He had recently returned from a 3-year "trip" down in Baja and was mumbling something about "the devil in the rudder", but at the time I just wrote it off to too much peyote. Someone told me that Matt was a leading evangelist for the church, but as I found out more I learned that he sells boats with rudders, and has even been known to stick the occasional rudder on a Mariner boat. This is not consistent with the behavior of a religious zealot. He does try to explain what he views as the drawbacks to rudders, but that hardly qualifies him as a purist. I have also visited a few symposia in the hope of finding anti-rudder purists, but again came up dry. Perhaps I am not listening carefully enough. Or perhaps I am listening too carefully. :-) In my search for members of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers I have, however, stumbled across a different breed of purist: the "anti anti-rudder-purist purist" (or AARPP). These folks are characterized as having a strong opinion that rudders are a useful tool (nothing wrong with that), but who can only explain why others might have a different (but equally strong) opinion by labeling them as "religous zealots". I suppose there are some purists on both sides of this issue. But it seems to me that there are more AARPPs then ARPs. As for me personally, if you are going to label me as a purist, I would prefer that you call me an AAARPPP (i.e., an "anti AARPP purist"). :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Wrote; (SNIP) >In my search for members of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless >Paddlers I have, however, stumbled across a different breed of purist: >the "anti anti-rudder-purist purist" (or AARPP). These folks are >characterized as having a strong opinion that rudders are a useful tool >(nothing wrong with that), but who can only explain why others might >have a different (but equally strong) opinion by labeling them as >"religous zealots". I suppose there are some purists on both sides of >this issue. But it seems to me that there are more AARPPs then ARPs. As >for me personally, if you are going to label me as a purist, I would >prefer that you call me an AAARPPP (i.e., an "anti AARPP purist"). :-) > Right on Dan. All this labeling has to stop. Fortunately there are people like you and me who reject those labels out-of-hand. Besides, AAARPPP sounds like a dietary problem. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote; >Okay, here is what I know about that. I was at the towing tank the day >before observing the tests and trying to talk the testers to run a rudder >down test (and also to try an old scratched up Boat which I had vs. a brand >new one with a shiny bottom which they had already tested). (Large SNIP) Sounds interesting. I can see why the results puzzled the tank people. If you can get it Horner's "Fluid Dynamics" might supply the information needed. I copied some parts of the book but not the ones needed for this. Maybe someone with an affliation with a university can get a copy. The presence of cavitation on rudders and skegs interests me most. I have read cavitation defined as "the process of formation of the vapour phase of a liquid when it is subjected to reduced pressure at constant ambient temperature" . I interpret this as meaning that, since water cannot support tension the flow breaks down with the formation of bubbles and cavities (I.E. it vaporizes) . It seems like one needs pretty low pressures to do this. If cavitation does exist then that may well explain the higher drag since the creation of such low pressures might involve a lot of energy. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/4/99 8:12:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dan_at_hagen.net writes: << In my search for members of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless >> "Yes I believe" A clean stern (no rudder) is the first thing I look at when I meet a Sea kayaker. Then I notice the sex of the paddler, age and body shape if female, but that's hard with pfd and spray skirt on. Driving down the highway I will not wave to that passing S.U.V. with the kayaks on top until the state of "rudderless" is known. At the symposium I contemptuously mach past any demo boat with a rudder. If I help carry kayaks up from the beach I will not grab the stern of a rudder equipped kayak. I paddle a Mariner Kayak. Can I Join *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote (regarding my search for members of the Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers): > > "Yes I believe" > > A clean stern (no rudder) is the first thing I look at when I meet a Sea > kayaker. ...<snip>... > Driving down the highway I will not wave to that passing S.U.V. with the > kayaks on top until the state of "rudderless" is known. ... Here's a suggestion for you (and other potential members of the ECRP). Perhaps you should have a covenant requiring that kayaks be tranported stern first so that it is easier to recognize "fellow travelers" at highway speeds. This may help to prevent an accidental wave to someone with a ruddered Mariner. (Those can fool you!) Just a thought... :-) Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|Right on Dan. All this labeling has to stop. Fortunately there are people |like you and me who reject those labels out-of-hand. Besides, AAARPPP sounds |like a dietary problem. :-) Well, I have heard that in other countries/cultures a loud AAARPP after a dinner tells the host/hostess that you enjoyed the meal. And failing to do so is an insult. My wife does not find this acceptable in our house! Imagine that! 8-) TheOtherDan... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Tomckayak_at_aol.com > "Yes I believe" > > A clean stern (no rudder) is the first thing I look at when I meet a Sea > kayaker. Then I notice the sex of the paddler, age and body shape if female, > but that's hard with pfd and spray skirt on. > Driving down the highway I will not wave to that passing S.U.V. with the > kayaks on top until the state of "rudderless" is known. > At the symposium I contemptuously mach past any demo boat with a rudder. > If I help carry kayaks up from the beach I will not grab the stern of a > rudder equipped kayak. > I paddle a Mariner Kayak. > > Can I Join I own and sometimes paddle a Prism (a SOT). Can I join? Will there be points against me since I have a Sea Lion with rudder? Can my Khatsalano cancel the Sea Lion points? Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:48 AM 10/5/99 -0700, Jackie Fenton wrote: Sorry to piggyback your post, Jackie, I must have deleted Tomckayaks orginal. >From: Tomckayak_at_aol.com > >> "Yes I believe" >> >> A clean stern (no rudder) is the first thing I look at when I meet a Sea >> kayaker. Then I notice the sex of the paddler, age and body shape if female, >> but that's hard with pfd and spray skirt on. >> Driving down the highway I will not wave to that passing S.U.V. with the >> kayaks on top until the state of "rudderless" is known. >> At the symposium I contemptuously mach past any demo boat with a rudder. >> If I help carry kayaks up from the beach I will not grab the stern of a >> rudder equipped kayak. >> I paddle a Mariner Kayak. I wonder how you would feel about a kayak that I saw at a Symposium in Maine. I believe it was just under 13' long and was an inflatable. The seat was a partially inflated foil bag from a "box of wine". Not only was it equipped with a rudder but it also had a boat and paddle tether. The owner of this kayak was a woman. Her name is Audrey Sutherland. During a class that I took with Chris Duff (you might have seen his slide show recently at the West coast symposium about his circumnavigation of Ireland) he said that when he grows up, he wants to be Audrey Sutherland. Not only has she probably logged more miles in this kayak (on a couple of shorter inflatables) along the notorius Na Pali coast on the Island of Kauai (and written two books about it) she has also completed at least two 650+ mile solo trips down the coast of Alaska in it. She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours straight in a 30mph crosswind. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > > MAJOR SNIP< > She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the > people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours > straight in a 30mph crosswind. > > AMEN, brothers and sisters!!!!! Send me your weak, your lame and lazy, your old and poor paddlers. That all fits me and I feel so-o-o good, now that I've seen the light and finially fitted a rudder to my old 17.5' folding super, after many years of doing it "proper". :-) James, 10% drag never felt so good *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:27 AM 10/5/99 -0700, James Lofton wrote: >John Fereira wrote: >> >> MAJOR SNIP< >> She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the >> people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours >> straight in a 30mph crosswind. >> >> > >AMEN, brothers and sisters!!!!! > >Send me your weak, your lame and lazy, your old and poor paddlers. Now that you mention age, Audrey did look to be in pretty good shape for a woman that is likely in her late 60's. > >That all fits me and I feel so-o-o good, now that I've seen the light and >finially fitted a rudder to my old 17.5' folding super, after many years >of doing it "proper". :-) > >James, 10% drag never felt so good If a 60+ year old woman can paddle a 13' inflatable with a 10% drag on two 650+ mile solo expeditions in seas of 20' and 30mph winds a trip like that ought to be a piece of cake for a young strapping buck like James in his rudderless 17'5" folding super. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > > ...<snip>... > She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the > people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours > straight in a 30mph crosswind. I do find this "interesting", but presumably not for the same reason you do. Her statement seems to imply that most people who do not use rudders do so for lack of experience, and that if they ever had to paddle a long distance in strong crosswinds they would realize the error of their ways. Obviously this is going to seem silly to paddlers who have paddled without rudders in much worse circumstances than those she describes. But if believing her statement makes you feel better about your choice to use a rudder, then by all means believe it, and quote it often (like a mantra). People sometimes have difficulty accepting that others may have experiences or opinions that differ from their own. Paddlers are a diverse group. If Audrey and others find it preferable to use a rudder, then that's great! I would not for a moment presume that their choice is a sign of incompetence or inexperience. At the same time, I suspect that most people on this list who disagree with Audrey about the desirability of rudders are not inexperienced (or stupid or stubborn). They are just different. Different people, with different backgrounds and experiences, paddling different boats, reaching different conclusions. Vive la difference! Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:31 PM 10/5/99 -0700, Dan Hagen wrote: >John Fereira wrote: >> >> ...<snip>... >> She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the >> people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours >> straight in a 30mph crosswind. > >I do find this "interesting", but presumably not for the same reason you >do. Her statement seems to imply that most people who do not use rudders >do so for lack of experience, and that if they ever had to paddle a long >distance in strong crosswinds they would realize the error of their >ways. I don't think she meant that at all and especially wouldn't use the phrase "error or their ways". That implies that not using a rudder is wrong. >Obviously this is going to seem silly to paddlers who have paddled >without rudders in much worse circumstances than those she describes. Again, I don't think that she is implying that people can't or don't paddle under extreme conditions without rudders. All I think she was implying is that there are probably a lot of people that have not experience extreme conditions for an extended amount of time, in which case, they're probably not in the best position to understand that having a rudder available can make the experience a lot more tolerable. >But if believing her statement makes you feel better about your choice >to use a rudder, then by all means believe it, and quote it often (like >a mantra). If it makes me *feel* better? First of all, the boat that I paddle most often doesn't have a rudder. It typically comes equipped with a drop down skeg but I don't have that option either. The boat that I am going to be building this winter (a CLC Northbay) was designed to be paddled without a rudder. Personally, I don't like paddling with a rudder but I'm not going to adopt an "Im too sexy for a rudder" mentality because a lot of people with far less experience than Audrey think "real paddlers don't need rudders". If I were to embark on a 500+ expedition I would want to use whatever equipment is available that would allow me to complete that expedition. If I were paddling for eight solid hours in a 30mph crosswind and a rudder would make it easier to stay on course I would use one. If I didn't feel like I needed it at the time, I wouldn't. > >People sometimes have difficulty accepting that others may have >experiences or opinions that differ from their own. Paddlers are a >diverse group. If Audrey and others find it preferable to use a rudder, >then that's great! I would not for a moment presume that their choice is >a sign of incompetence or inexperience. At the same time, I suspect that >most people on this list who disagree with Audrey about the desirability >of rudders are not inexperienced (or stupid or stubborn). They are just >different. Different people, with different backgrounds and experiences, >paddling different boats, reaching different conclusions. Vive la >difference! I am suprised that you recognize that difference because Audrey's entire message is that as paddlers, we *do* have that choice. For some, a fully outfitted $3000+ 17'6" kevlar kayak is there choice. She chooses to paddle a 13' inflatable with a rudder her experiences speak for themselves. There is a lot of pressure from other paddlers to go with the latest high tech gear but her message is that low-tech and inexpensive is a perfectly valid choice as well. The reason for my entry into this thread was that I objected to the condescending attitude regarding "not waving to someone with a kayak on their SUV if it had a rudder" and "I wouldn't help carry a kayak with a rudder". The attitude smacks of elitism and is extremely condescending. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > > > I own and sometimes paddle a Prism (a SOT). Can I join? > > Will there be points against me since I have a Sea Lion with rudder? > > Can my Khatsalano cancel the Sea Lion points? > > Jackie I own a Current Designs Caribou, pre skeg model. I have never owned a kayak with a rudder. Can I join? If I admit that I lust after a kayak with a rudder (CD Extreme) will I be kicked out? Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Michael R Noyes <mnoyes_at_gsinet.net> > I own a Current Designs Caribou, pre skeg model. I have never owned a > kayak with a rudder. Can I join? If I admit that I lust after a > kayak with a rudder (CD Extreme) will I be kicked out? Well, I think I should be given special consideration for deacon of the church since I paddle with two westies now... even rudderless. Take my word for it, when you are paddling with two westies on board, both leaning to one side of the boat to have a good look at that bird over there, shiftable Canadian ballast rocks and a rudder would come in mighty handy. Cheers, Jackie (how do you go straight when in a strong lean?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think I should be given special consideration too! I paddle with a 30 pound pelican sniffin' wiggle butt brace enhancing anti-balancing device! And she sure can howl and yodel and pitch a hissy fit if she thinks I am even considering leaving her behind. Canadian ballast rocks come in a shiftable version?? On the fly? Have you given up your SL? Alice & Happy > Well, I think I should be given special consideration for deacon of > the church since I paddle with two westies now... even rudderless. > Take my word for it, when you are paddling with two westies on board, > both leaning to one side of the boat to have a good look at that bird > over there, shiftable Canadian ballast rocks and a rudder would come in > mighty handy. > > Cheers, > > Jackie (how do you go straight when in a strong lean?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Michael R Noyes wrote: > I own a Current Designs Caribou, pre skeg model. I have never owned a > kayak with a rudder. Can I join? If I admit that I lust after a > kayak with a rudder (CD Extreme) will I be kicked out? I own a Prism and 2 K-Lights. I also have never owned a kayak with a rudder. Can I join too? If I admit that I lust after a kayaker with a rudder (Brian Wilson) will I be kicked out? e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: >I own a Current Designs Caribou, pre skeg model. I have never > owned a kayak with a rudder. Can I join? If I admit that I > lust after a kayak with a rudder (CD Extreme) will I be kicked > out? Nope--I think the CD Extreme should be offered in a rudderless model so that ECRP members can still enjoy it! I had the opportunity to paddle one on Sunday--Wow! IMHO, it doesn't need a rudder--a drop skeg option might be nice for that 3% (unscientific number pulled out of my ear) of the time when something other than your paddle is needed to go straight. shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Shawn W. Baker" wrote: > Nope--I think the CD Extreme should be offered in a rudderless model so > that ECRP members can still enjoy it! Hint - it's held on with one bolt! I have a kayak with a rudder, but haven't used it in years - where's that put me? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 20:09 10/5/99 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: [snip] > >I have a kayak with a rudder, but haven't used it in years - where's >that put me? > >Mike none of my canoes has a rudder, can't see why i would want one on a kayak? ;-p the last one i bought from my dad, had a rudder. used it once, out on a big lake, and the wind came up, i forgot about the rudder, and did a hard sweep to bring the boat around. ended up in the emergency room with pulled muscles... what did i learn? yes i can paddle all day without ever having to worry about steering, until the swells come up, then the rudder goes in and out of the water... you never know [since you're looking forward] when the boat will stop or start to turn as the rudder catches and releases. i would rather have the predictability of never having it grab. i come from a whitewater back ground, and believe boat control is an essential part of the paddling "skillset" ... my "sea kayak" that is designed for a rudder, but has none :-) has _fixed_ foot braces, that the rudder control pivots around, so you don't have that squishiness in movable foot pegs. i don't see how you could brace solidly in the boat, and still use your feet to steer... YMMV, IMHO, etc mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. --Pablo Picasso *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Perhaps all rudders are not created equal. Does anyone have any knowledge about how the Valley Canoe Rudder compares to the North American flat metal blade style, in term of efficiency? My VCP rudder is "thick" by normal standards, but the cross section is more like an airplane wing, but symmetrical. I only use my rudder for extreme conditions or when my right shoulder tendonitis flares up and I want to "average-out" the load between shoulders, but it would be interesting to know if anyone has info. Also, at the PT Symposium, I saw the Eddyline people who hawk the Falcon wearing T-shirts that said "Don't need no stinking rudder". Would not these people perhaps be the ones coming out of the Evangelical Rudderless closet? The symposium schedule even indicated there was a scheduled lecture on paddling without a rudder - the title on the schedule said "No stinking rudder". So, would not that class be taught by one of these Evangelical proselytizers? Anyway, rudders are always good to have around, just in case you happen upon a media type who has lifted one of your PW posts off the internet - you can cram the rudder down their throat. Ouch! How's that for perspicuity? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who wonders, if rudders are a crutch, then are SOT's the opiate of the masses) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor and said, "Ye shall witness for me" "I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless God. " And he said, "Build me a church, a mighty bastion against the forces of evil and it will be a fortress unto thee, a pillar, a comfort. Yea, tho you paddle through the narrows of death my life jacket and my radar reflector shall comfort thee." And lo it was a miracle for I have no sound card. I will answer his call and this day shall start the First Internet Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers. And we will fight the great wiggling Satan. Amen We will fight him in the clubs. Amen We will fight him on the beaches Amen, Amen Tell it brother. We fight him at the symposiums Amen brother, Amen And our lord the rudderless will stand by us for he knows we are weak. Oh, yes, weak. Amen, we know it brother Are we weak? OH yes Do we need our Lord's help? Oh Yes, . Will he stand by us? Yes, Lord Yes. We have all met the Satan. He tempts us with sliding foot peddles. We've seen them. Yes, Brother, Yes We've been tempted by stainless steel cables. OH Lord, yes Anodized rudder blades. OHHHH my Lord yes. Control lines. OHHH OHHH OHHH. But we fought back, oh yes, we fought back, Weak as we are we resisted. The Lord stood by us and held us up. Amen Do you hear what I am saying? Oh yes, Do you hear me? Oh yes Amen Shout out load, Do you hear me? Amen, Yes Brother we hear. Let us sing Hymn one-hundred twenty -Two "Onward Paddling Soldiers and let us sing out so all will hear our mighty voice and sing out with all your hearts. And while we sing this hymn of praise the electronic ushers will pass among you with the collection plate. Open your hearts and your wallets. The Lord's work is difficult and expensive and we need your money to carry the word forward to those heathen paddling clubs where the wiggling Satan has done his work. And if you happen to be caught short send your donation to Prof. Peregrine Inverbon, C/O The Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers, RR #2, Burks Falls, Ontario, Canada. For a donation of ten dollars we will send you a genuine signed photograph of the Virgin Paddler. but if you don't have ten dollars send five dollars or even one dollar. Every penny counts. Just remember the Lord's words for it is easier for an Orca to pass through the eye of an oyster than a rich paddler to enter the kingdom of paddler heaven. Amen, Amen Amen Amen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good enough for Noah it good enough for me. Dana At 06:54 AM 10/6/99 -0400, 735769 wrote: >Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor >and said, "Ye shall witness for me" > >"I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless >God. " > >And he said, "Build me a church, a mighty bastion against the forces of evil >and it will be a fortress unto thee, a pillar, a comfort. Yea, tho you >paddle through the narrows of death my life jacket and my radar reflector >shall comfort thee." > >And lo it was a miracle for I have no sound card. > > >I will answer his call and this day shall start the First Internet >Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers. > >And we will fight the great wiggling Satan. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good > enough for Noah it good enough for me. > > Dana Hummm, I have those plans around here somewhere. Rudder . . rudder . . .rudder, HA! found it. Only one. Only take what you need, I guess. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:31 AM 10/6/99 -0400, Joan Spinner wrote: >dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > >> I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good >> enough for Noah it good enough for me. >> >> Dana > >Hummm, I have those plans around here somewhere. Rudder . . rudder . . .rudder, >HA! found it. Only one. Only take what you need, I guess. > >Joan > Nope no rudder, remember he had to take two of everything, so it would be two rudders and they ain't there,he floated around at the mercy of them there currents Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Prof. Inverbon wrote: > > Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor > and said, "Ye shall witness for me" > > "I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless > God. " > > ...<snip>... Open your hearts and your wallets. > ...<snip>... Just remember the Lord's words for it is easier for an Orca to pass > through the eye of an oyster than a rich paddler to enter the kingdom of > paddler heaven. > > Amen, Amen Amen Amen Amen indeed. The good professor has once again put the appropriate exclamation point on a silly (but entertaining) thread. Hallelujah! Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is with great personal peril that I make this post. However, I feel that the circumstances are so compelling it must be done. I recently received a phone call form an associate in New York (who shall remain unidentified for their own safety) who works for the CBS News Department. Apparently one of their staff was monitoring this list and became interested in the recent posts describing the dangerous cult growing in Northern Ontario. It was decided in an editorial meeting that it was worth pursuing and assigned to Morkeel Safer and his staff. Interested to discover if Janet Reno and the Justice Dept. were aware of this threat a call was placed to a highly place anonymous source in the DOJ. Much to the surprise of the news staff there was already an investigation underway. It appears that the government had identified kayak rudders as having huge potential for additional revenue. First there would be congressional hearings with all of the CEOs of the rudder companies. Then they would be vilified and demonized laying the groundwork for State and Federal suits and finally punitive taxes on rudders to fund anti-rudder educational programs for the children. The fear at the DOJ is that this Canadian cult would spread so quickly that the millions converted would eliminate all use and manufacture of rudders and thus eliminate this huge potential cash windfall. It was reported that already press statements were being prepared from taking posts out of context from the PW mailing list. These posts allegedly indicate rampant instances of child abuse due to the incessant references to paddling. Also it is suggested that pot use is encouraged to the point of blind intoxication as there are endless discussions of rolling and bracing. Already spy satellites have been re-routed to track over the Burks Falls compound to gather additional intelligence advice. When the State Department was contacted due to the international nature of this they had no comment. Although there seemed to be an unusual amount of activity between DOS officials and the usually sleepy Canadian ministers. I would be on-guard in Burks Falls, be sure the horse at the fire dept. has been fed and watered today, pack some extra bear grease in those fire wagon wheels and replace the duct tape on the buckets. Be Careful, Steve Freund QCC Kayaks (888) 794-3887 http://www.qcckayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of 735769 Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:54 AM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor and said, "Ye shall witness for me" "I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless God. " And he said, "Build me a church, a mighty bastion against the forces of evil and it will be a fortress unto thee, a pillar, a comfort. Yea, tho you paddle through the narrows of death my life jacket and my radar reflector shall comfort thee." And lo it was a miracle for I have no sound card. I will answer his call and this day shall start the First Internet Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers. And we will fight the great wiggling Satan. Amen We will fight him in the clubs. Amen We will fight him on the beaches Amen, Amen Tell it brother. We fight him at the symposiums Amen brother, Amen And our lord the rudderless will stand by us for he knows we are weak. Oh, yes, weak. Amen, we know it brother Are we weak? OH yes Do we need our Lord's help? Oh Yes, . Will he stand by us? Yes, Lord Yes. We have all met the Satan. He tempts us with sliding foot peddles. We've seen them. Yes, Brother, Yes We've been tempted by stainless steel cables. OH Lord, yes Anodized rudder blades. OHHHH my Lord yes. Control lines. OHHH OHHH OHHH. But we fought back, oh yes, we fought back, Weak as we are we resisted. The Lord stood by us and held us up. Amen Do you hear what I am saying? Oh yes, Do you hear me? Oh yes Amen Shout out load, Do you hear me? Amen, Yes Brother we hear. Let us sing Hymn one-hundred twenty -Two "Onward Paddling Soldiers and let us sing out so all will hear our mighty voice and sing out with all your hearts. And while we sing this hymn of praise the electronic ushers will pass among you with the collection plate. Open your hearts and your wallets. The Lord's work is difficult and expensive and we need your money to carry the word forward to those heathen paddling clubs where the wiggling Satan has done his work. And if you happen to be caught short send your donation to Prof. Peregrine Inverbon, C/O The Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers, RR #2, Burks Falls, Ontario, Canada. For a donation of ten dollars we will send you a genuine signed photograph of the Virgin Paddler. but if you don't have ten dollars send five dollars or even one dollar. Every penny counts. Just remember the Lord's words for it is easier for an Orca to pass through the eye of an oyster than a rich paddler to enter the kingdom of paddler heaven. Amen, Amen Amen Amen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/6/99 7:02:09 AM, 735769_at_ican.net writes: >Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor >and said, "Ye shall witness for me" >"I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless God. " >And he said, "Build me a church, a mighty bastion against the forces of evil >and it will be a fortress unto thee, a pillar, a comfort. Yea, tho you> >paddle through the narrows of death my life jacket and my radar reflector >shall comfort thee." >Amen, Amen Amen Amen ROTFLMAO, Methinks winter has set in early this year, and the dreaded cabin fever has struck..... Scott ;-) Enjoying the 90 degreee heat again today *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good >enough for Noah it good enough for me. > Reminds me of a poem by Stephen Crane, God fashioned the ship of the world carefully. With infinite skill of an All-Master Made He the hull and the sails, Held he the rudder Ready for adjustment. Erect stood He, scanning His work proudly. Then - at fateful time - a wrong called, And God turned, heeding. Lo the ship, at this opportunity, slipped slyly. Making cunning noiseless travel down the ways. So that, forever rudderless, it went upon the seas going ridiculous voyages, Making quaint progress. Turning as with serious purpose Before stupid winds. And there were many in the sky Who laughed at this thing. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joan Spinner wrote: > > dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good > > enough for Noah it good enough for me. > > > > Dana > > Hummm, I have those plans around here somewhere. Rudder . . rudder . . .rudder, > HA! found it. Only one. Only take what you need, I guess. > Joan, my source says he took two of everything. :-) James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think they are self replicating so take what you need<G> Joan James Lofton wrote: > Joan Spinner wrote: > > > > dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > > > I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good > > > enough for Noah it good enough for me. > > > > > > Dana > > > > Hummm, I have those plans around here somewhere. Rudder . . rudder . . .rudder, > > HA! found it. Only one. Only take what you need, I guess. > > > > Joan, my source says he took two of everything. :-) > > James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Lofton wrote: > > Joan Spinner wrote: > > dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > > > I don't remember reading any where that Noah's ARK had a rudder, if it good > > > enough for Noah it good enough for me. > > > > > > > Hummm, I have those plans around here somewhere. Rudder . . rudder . . .rudder, > > HA! found it. Only one. Only take what you need, I guess. > > > > Joan, my source says he took two of everything. :-) > Which was wise, seeing as how they have been know to break when far from home. Without the backup rudder, he might have need to teach the animals to stand on the right side of the deck to maintain appropriate edging in crosswinds. And no, I'm not a member of ECRP. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Advice Needed!! My wife and I both paddle the same model boat with one exception. Mine has a rudder and hers doesn't. She feels there is no need for a rudder - equates it to some high tech testosterone type thing. Is there any hope for this marriage or will I have to convert? Steve Holtzman Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:54:20 -0400 From: "735769" <735769_at_ican.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor and said, "Ye shall witness for me" "I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless God. " *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:59 AM 10/6/99 -0700, Steven Holtzman wrote: >Advice Needed!! > > > > > >My wife and I both paddle the same model boat with one exception. Mine has a >rudder and hers doesn't. She feels there is no need for a rudder - equates it >to some high tech testosterone type thing. > > > > > >Is there any hope for this marriage or will I have to convert? > > > > > >Steve Holtzman > I hate to tell you this Steve but I think you need to be circumcised to covert, ouch!!, better stay where you are or as you are. Them women have no balls for that sort of thing. You will go your way (straight) and she will go hers (a long arc 1/3 farther than you have to) because she is utterly rudderless. Oops I used the wrong "C" word , castrated of you rudder I think is the right phrase. Jackie please no ascii art to demonstrate this please. :) Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> > > > > Joan, my source says he took two of everything. :-) > > > Which was wise, seeing as how they have been know to break when far from > home. Without the backup rudder, he might have need to teach the animals > to stand on the right side of the deck to maintain appropriate edging in > crosswinds. hmmm... wonder if I can teach two westies to do this? Nah, a rudder is definitely easier :-) Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > > From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> > > > > > > > Joan, my source says he took two of everything. :-) > > > > > Which was wise, seeing as how they have been know to break when far from > > home. Without the backup rudder, he might have need to teach the animals > > to stand on the right side of the deck to maintain appropriate edging in > > crosswinds. > > hmmm... wonder if I can teach two westies to do this? Nah, a rudder > is definitely easier :-) > > Careful, Jackie! You could lose your Deacon's status with statements like that. Let's see, The Evangelical Church of Rudderless Paddlers. John Winters, Pastor. Jackie Fenton, Deacon. Is the position of Church Warden still open? Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steven Holtzman wrote: > > Advice Needed!! > > My wife and I both paddle the same model boat with one exception. Mine has a > rudder and hers doesn't. She feels there is no need for a rudder - equates it > to some high tech testosterone type thing. > > Is there any hope for this marriage or will I have to convert? Get thee to an exorcist! I'm sure that Dr. Inverbon can hook you up with someone who is recognized by the church to conduct rudder-devil exorcisms. (For a very reasonable fee, of course.) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steven Holtzman wrote: > > Advice Needed!! > > My wife and I both paddle the same model boat with one exception. Mine has a > rudder and hers doesn't. She feels there is no need for a rudder - equates it > to some high tech testosterone type thing. > > Is there any hope for this marriage or will I have to convert? > Hmmm, there is an interesting endocrinological intereaction going on in the Holtzman household. We all know that there is a strong relationship between high tech and high testosterone. Men program VCRs, use handheld PCs, build computers from scratch, hotrod cars and boats, and women simply don't. On the other hand, surely it's more macho to paddle a boat without a rudder. As Emiliano Z might have said, had he not lived in the Sonoran desert, "We don' need no steekin' rudders!" Perhaps that's what comes from men wearing skirts. Steve (with apologies to all the women reading this who _do_ program VCRs and build computers from scratch. Both of you.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding rudders and drag and other phenomena they engender, I am surprised that our designer gurus like Matt Broze and John Winters have taken such an aversion to them instead of working on re-design. They have somehow missed a simple modification that will make any rudder work better and eliminate many of the detrimental physical phenomena associated with rudders. The solution is easy: cut holes in the rudder. Ideally the holes should cover about 50% of the surface of the rudder; holes about 3 cm. in diameter are best. Make certain to leave at least a centimeter between holes in order not to weaken the rudder. And don't place any hole closer than about a centimeter from the edges of the rudder. Round holes are better than squared off ones as they are more aesthetically pleasing. Holes in a rudder cut down on drag significantly, so much so that you hardly know you have a rudder...believe me. They also lighten the rudder greatly and ease the problem of proper boat trim that Matt Broze is always carrying on about. BTW, the origins of this modification come from Switzerland. This is such a good idea that I relinguish copywrite provisions, i.e. feel free to use it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
< snipped > > Holes in a rudder cut down on drag significantly, so much so that you > hardly know you have a rudder...believe me. I confess I don't believe you. I would think the holes would cause a turbulence that would increase the drag rather than decrease it. But whadue I know? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Steven Holtzman >Advice Needed!! > > >My wife and I both paddle the same model boat with one exception. Mine has a >rudder and hers doesn't. She feels there is no need for a rudder - equates it >to some high tech testosterone type thing. > Men, of course, are born with rudders, women without. This means that women suffer from rudder envy, so, in a matriarchal society such as you have in the United States, you have all been taught by your mothers that rudders are a bad thing and must not be displayed in public. In the more primitive New Zealand society 99.999% of sea kayaks have rudders, i.e. I have yet to see a rudderless one. Male dominance is almost complete, and women are sidelined into trivial jobs such as Prime Minister, Leader of the Opposition, etc. Now, what am I going to cook for my wife's dinner tonight? ;-) Cheers Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/06/1999 5:48:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allan.singleton_at_voyager.co.nz writes: << Men, of course, are born with rudders, women without. This means that women suffer from rudder envy, ....>> In the more primitive New Zealand ... Male dominance is almost complete, and women are sidelined into trivial jobs such as Prime Minister, Leader of the Opposition, etc. Now, what am I going to cook for my wife's dinner tonight? ;-) >> ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. CAN WE PLEASE GIVE HIM THE PRIZE??? (If we had one, of course). Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The Professor wrote: >Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor >and said, "Ye shall witness for me" > >"I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless >God. " > <snip rest> Jackie, You really are going to have to ask the good Professor to refrain from writing posts while imbibed on too much sacramental wine :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The Professor wrote: > >Last night as I read your posts a voice came to me out of a burning monitor > >and said, "Ye shall witness for me" > > > >"I have heard your call and I will answer, so saith the Lord thy rudderless > >God. " > > > <snip rest> > > Jackie, > > You really are going to have to ask the good Professor to refrain from > writing posts while imbibed on too much sacramental wine :-) > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd Uh uh. No not me. I know better than to mess with messengers of the Lord thy rudderless God. There are some higher stations in life than list-mom. Not many, but some. :-p Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; >Regarding rudders and drag and other phenomena they engender, I am >surprised that our designer gurus like Matt Broze and John Winters have >taken such an aversion to them instead of working on re-design. They >have somehow missed a simple modification that will make any rudder work >better and eliminate many of the detrimental physical phenomena >associated with rudders. TUT TUT Ralph. I have no aversion to rudders or skegs. I see a place in the great world of paddling for all creeds but that doens't eman i would let my daughter marry one. By the way, I have offered up a lot of methods to improve rudders and skegs but people won't take me seriously. Don't know why not. (SNIP) >Holes in a rudder cut down on drag significantly, so much so that you >hardly know you have a rudder...believe me. They also lighten the >rudder greatly and ease the problem of proper boat trim that Matt Broze >is always carrying on about. > >BTW, the origins of this modification come from Switzerland. Has Ralph tugged on your leg? I saw my first "Swiss Rudder" back in the mid sixties. The owner said, "Believe me it works." After a couple of races he was back to his original rudder. The "Swiss Cheese" spinnaker also made a comeback on the sixties after lying dormant for three or four decades. It too disappeared or maybe they just made the holes too big. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > ... I saw my first "Swiss Rudder" back in the mid > sixties. The owner said, "Believe me it works." After a couple of races he > was back to his original rudder. The "Swiss Cheese" spinnaker also made a > comeback on the sixties after lying dormant for three or four decades. It > too disappeared or maybe they just made the holes too big. While you can make a rudder "holey" you can never make it "holy". With all of this talk about "swiss-cheese" rudders and sails, I am surprised that no one has hit upon the obvious. We all know that one component of hull drag comes from friction, which is a function of wetted surface area. So why not simply reduce the hull's wetted surface area by applying the swiss-cheese idea to hulls! Given John's comments above, you don't want to make the holes too big. I would recommend a half-inch forstner bit, with the drill set at low speed to avoid chipping the gel coat. If any brave soul is willing to try this out, make sure that you do a "before and after" speed test over a set distance, and report your results back to the list. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote; >It is with great personal peril that I make this post. However, I feel that >the circumstances are so compelling it must be done. I recently received a >phone call form an associate in New York (who shall remain unidentified for >their own safety) who works for the CBS News Department. Apparently one of >their staff was monitoring this list and became interested in the recent >posts describing the dangerous cult growing in Northern Ontario. It was >decided in an editorial meeting that it was worth pursuing and assigned to >Morkeel Safer and his staff. (SNIP, SNIP, SNIP) Hey, you Murricans should stop reading the tabloids. Elvis is dead, there are no flying saucers, the CIA did not kill Princess Di, Oprah's new diet won't last, Nostradamus did not predict what Monica would do to Bill Clinton in the Oral Office, and there are no cults in Burks Fall. (Unless you think a bunch of guys drinking beer and watching hockey constitutes a cult). Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>...... (Unless you think a bunch of guys drinking beer and watching hockey >constitutes a cult). > Nah, we call that Possum Lodge. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > > At 11:27 AM 10/5/99 -0700, James Lofton wrote: > >John Fereira wrote: > >> > >> MAJOR SNIP< > >> She made an interesting point about rudders. She said that most of the > >> people that bash rudders on sea kayaks have never paddled for eight hours > >> straight in a 30mph crosswind. > >> > >> > > > >AMEN, brothers and sisters!!!!! > > > >Send me your weak, your lame and lazy, your old and poor paddlers. > > Now that you mention age, Audrey did look to be in pretty good shape > for a woman that is likely in her late 60's. > > > > >That all fits me and I feel so-o-o good, now that I've seen the light and > >finially fitted a rudder to my old 17.5' folding super, after many years > >of doing it "proper". :-) > > > >James, 10% drag never felt so good > > If a 60+ year old woman can paddle a 13' inflatable with a 10% drag > on two 650+ mile solo expeditions in seas of 20' and 30mph winds > a trip like that ought to be a piece of cake for a young strapping buck like > James in his rudderless 17'5" folding super. > If only it were so. It's been a long, long, time sence that statement were true. Heck, I'm even thinking about getting something lighter than them 25 year old, stock, wooden, metal tipped paddles, so I won't hurt my shoulders. james *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> >I wrote; > >>Okay, here is what I know about that. I was at the towing tank the day >>before observing the tests and trying to talk the testers to run a rudder >>down test (and also to try an old scratched up Boat which I had vs. a brand >>new one with a shiny bottom which they had already tested). > >(Large SNIP) > >John Winters wrote: Sounds interesting. I can see why the results puzzled the tank people. If >you can get it Horner's "Fluid Dynamics" might supply the information >needed. I copied some parts of the book but not the ones needed for this. >Maybe someone with an affliation with a university can get a copy. > >The presence of cavitation on rudders and skegs interests me most. I have >read cavitation defined as "the process of formation of the vapour phase of >a liquid when it is subjected to reduced pressure at constant ambient >temperature" . I interpret this as meaning that, since water cannot support >tension the flow breaks down with the formation of bubbles and cavities >(I.E. it vaporizes) . It seems like one needs pretty low pressures to do >this. If cavitation does exist then that may well explain the higher drag >since the creation of such low pressures might involve a lot of energy. Actually, I was a little loose in my wording. I believe John's definition of cavitation is correct and that there isn't low enough pressure around a rudder blade to create it. Basically the pressure has to get low enough that water boils at the waters temperature creating water vapor. This is a serious problem for high speed propellers as not only is efficiency lost but the propellers can be literaly eaten away by it. True cavitation not likely to happen to rudders and skegs. I was using the term more loosely to mean the rudder or skeg developed a resonance and whipped back and forth at several cycles per second due to its shape, flexibility, or play in the system. I suspect this does cause more drag but I have no data to back this up. I have noticed though that the skegs that get into resonace are the shaped ones. I suspect that the lifting shape flies it of to one side until it reaches the limits of its motion due to stiffnes or a stop (of its looseness) and then as it rebounds it generates lift in the other direction ad infinitum.. There is another way a sterm mounted rudder may have increased drag and that is though ventilation. Lower pressures around the blade allow air to infilterate around the rudder from where it pierces the surface. I wish I had known that Sea Kayaker would do the rudder test they told me they weren't going to do. I might have stayed another night in Vancouver and videod one of the runs with the rudder down from the underwater viewing window of the test tank. Air around the rudder should have been easy to see from underwater. copyright 1999 (Does anybody know how to easily make the circle C copyright symbol in HTML?) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As I mentioned earlier, I think most rudders and skegs could use some improvement. Many skegs fit rather loosely in their trunks and have rough or irregular edges. I believe the vibration (singing skeg or rudder) that some develop usually results (not sure that other causes of vibration apply to kayaks given their low speeds) from vortices shed off the trailing edge. Sailors cured this problem by shaping the leading and trailing edges carefully. In all my years of boat building and sailing I never found a case of singing rudder or centerboard that reshaping the edges could not cure. In general one wants a leading radius of around 1.5% of the chord length for rudders. I suspect the same would apply to skegs where the boat has a tendency toward a lot of leeway (in excess of 7 degrees). Sharp or squared off at an angle trailing edges work nicely. Of course, one should have a rigid rudder head. To me the floppy rudder heads cause a lot of problems including wear an tear on the system and poor response. Both skegs and rudders work best when they have proper section shape. The ubiquitous (among sailors) NACA 0006 and 0012 airfoils seem to work just fine. If they didn't a sailboat race would sound like a giant kazoo band engaging in a game of bumper cars. Improper shaping (mostly flat plates) causes most of the ventilation that increases drag in a big way. Nicely rounded leading edges and a fuller foil like the NACA 0012 just about eliminate it for all but the most aggressive turning actions. Back when I was racing 505's I experimented with an NACA a section supplied by a friend at NASA and despite all reasonable efforts I could not make that rudder ventilate. The section was the same as that used on the U-2 spy plane wing and designed for high lift. I believe (but won't swear to it) that the section was designated NACA 2006. I have modified flat plate rudders by gluing wood on each side and then shaping the blade. A little varnish and it looks rather sexy and works better too. I prefer rudders with stops that prohibit turning the rudder more than 20 degrees. This reduces the possibility of ventilation considerably. If one uses the rudder more like a trim tab and set it at an angle to hold a course rather than wiggling it back and forth all the time it seems to work quite well (someone mentioned that earlier but I cannot recall who). Interestingly the Inuit seemed to have used their rudders this way. They had control lines running around the front of the cockpit that they must have adjusted and left since one can't paddle and handle lines at the same time. Can learn a lot from those Inuit. Managed to dig out the paper on the International sailing canoe tests. For those who want to get it search for Tanner, T. , Full Scale Tank Tests of an International 10 Sq. Meter Class Canoe, Royal Institution of Naval Architects, 1960, Unfortunately they printed the graphs in such a small scale that taking information off results in lots of error not to mention the error due to normal distortions of copies etc. Doing the best I could for 5 degrees of leeway I got a 1.8% increase in drag at 2 knots, 11.4% increase at 3 knots and 14% increase at 4 knots. Now, don't go off and quote me on those saying that John Winters said that Blah blah blah % blah% blah% !!!!!! First off, even Tanner admitted to some problems in fairing the data and my take-off certainly won't win any awards for precision. In any case, the graphs do suggest that leeway can result in considerable added resistance and that it may even pay to design boats with small keels or hull shapes that resist leeway. Lots of options here and fun for designers, builders, and advertising copy writers. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > Unfortunately they printed the graphs in such a small scale that taking > information off results in lots of error not to mention the error due to > normal distortions of copies etc. Doing the best I could for 5 degrees of > leeway I got a 1.8% increase in drag at 2 knots, 11.4% increase > at 3 knots and 14% increase at 4 knots. Thanks John. This is the kind of information I like to see. In this rudder vs. non-rudder debate, I can't help think about a little snippet I read in Derek Hutchinson's book on Sea Kayaking: "A few years ago the sea kayaking world was a relatively small one, so that if a kayak came on the market and had obvious faults the word was passed round among paddlers by word of mouth. If the boat was a bad one, it usually fell by the wayside and was never heard of again. This is not so today, and the bad designs stand next to the good in the retail stores - caveat emptor!" I think the discussion here has centered around if rudders are bad or not. A few have avoided this debate and looked deeper and asked "why is the rudder needed?". The rudder is not "bad" (at least no one has presented any evidence to show that it is) but some have offered evidence that it retards a boats efficiency (is this bad?). Matt Broze has repeatably stated that a rudder is not needed. To back that up he designs boats that he stands behind not needing one. A pretty powerful statement. Rather than trying to prove that rudders are bad, he proves (at least to some people) that they aren't needed when the design is correct. I like that approach. The little blurb I quoted from John W's post above is the second piece of information posted that shows there may be a significant increase in drag with a rudder deployed. This doesn't mean rudders are bad, but does indicate a paddler who needs a rudder may pay a premium for it if (s)he decides to use it. This certainly seems to fit with what I've observed while using my rudder (low/no drag at lower speeds, noticeable drag at higher speeds), but my body is not calibrated enough to place a number on the amount of drag I'm experiencing. There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I missed any: 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. 2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. You have to empathize with those suffering from #1, and can only encourage those suffering from #2 to get better. Some people don't know to which category they belong (yet); something that experience will hopefully tell them one day. I think it would be interesting when someone asks for opinions on a certain design in this forum, to read "that boat needs a rudder all the time - that boat needs a rudder in high winds - that boat never needs a rudder". When this starts to happen, as a group maybe we can again start to weed out the bad designs. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll just add the strategy of one my sea paddling colleagues here. he's an experienced, skilled and strong paddler and doesn't need a rudder. However, he usually paddles with his rudder down so that he can focus on foward paddling technique (he is also a flat water kayak racer). He finds that this is most efficient, speedy and injury minimising for him. Using this strategy, with training, he is able to sustain high speeds. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Robert Woodard" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net> > 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. > 2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. I wonder, though, if what is considered a design shortfall by some may be seen as an asset to someone else... i.e. Audrey Sutherland's inflatable. Can you call her inflatable a design shortfall? There's no question she has the skill. Seems she's found what she wants to paddle and in some conditions, it requires a rudder. Just a thought.... Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. >> 2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. > I wonder, though, if what is considered a design shortfall by some may be > seen as an asset to someone else... i.e. Audrey Sutherland's inflatable. > Can you call her inflatable a design shortfall? There's no question > she has the skill. Seems she's found what she wants to paddle and in > some conditions, it requires a rudder. Let me stick my neck out even a bit further and say "ALL kayaks have design shortfalls". Every good design trades one favorable characteristic for another. Or at least, this is what several of the notable kayak designers have written. Just what characteristics we prefer to give up and which ones we prefer to keep is what makes it likely not everyone will like the same boats, even though we all want the same boat. The perfect design doesn't exist. Having built a wooden strip kayak I'm pretty sensitive to using "design shortfall" to describe one of it's characteristics. This same characteristic though also makes it *the* best boat I've ever been in for weaving back into tight marshes. As I spin my kayak around without even leaning, it is at that point those rudderless kayaks that track straight or that must be leaned to make them easier to turn display their "design shortfalls". For this line of thinking, in the few short hours since posting my original message on this subject, apparently a few folks have either publicly or privately taken it as a personal attack on their skill level or choice in kayak design or possibly something I don't yet understand. Relax. Don't take my words so seriously or as a personal attack. How I, as a devout rudder user, got all the other rudder users pissed off at me is freaking amazing. Maybe a couple of you rudderless folks could say something condescending towards me so I can feel better again 8^) I still stick by #1 or #2 or a combination of both are the only reasons to use a rudder. (I'm excluding special applications such as sailing or kite flying. Valid reasons but they only apply to a few of you) *I* too am included somewhere in #1 or #2 (or both)! Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote on Thursday, October 7th: <<I wonder, though, if what is considered a design shortfall by some may be seen as an asset to someone else... i.e. Audrey Sutherland's inflatable.Can you call her inflatable a design shortfall? There's no question she has the skill. Seems she's found what she wants to paddle and in some conditions, it requires a rudder. >> I would be comfortable saying that all inflatables have a design flaw... it's called a flat bottom. Paddling an inflatable in any sort of crosswind, or other wind for that matter, is a real hassle. Having paddled Aire and Sotar inflatables for the last 6 years (and not liking it), I speak from experience. Don't get me wrong, they have their place, but the only thing I can say good about them is that they are airplane transportable and you can carry a big cooler :-) If you're looking for any kind of performance or handling, don't count on an inflatables. Cheers, Dave Dave Williams dave_at_paddleasia.com http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote: > > Jackie Fenton wrote on Thursday, October 7th: > <<I wonder, though, if what is considered a design shortfall by some may be > seen as an asset to someone else... i.e. Audrey Sutherland's inflatable.Can > you call her inflatable a design shortfall? There's no question she has the > skill. Seems she's found what she wants to paddle and in some conditions, > it requires a rudder. >> > > I would be comfortable saying that all inflatables have a design flaw... > it's called a flat bottom. Paddling an inflatable in any sort of crosswind, > or other wind for that matter, is a real hassle. Having paddled Aire and > Sotar inflatables for the last 6 years (and not liking it), I speak from > experience. I agree regarding the wind. Last year, I paddled with John Caveman Grey to the Statue of Liberty in quite heavy winds in one of the better class double inflatables he uses. It took all of our combined 25-30 years of paddling experience in toughing out adverse conditions plus all of our strength (mainly his...he's bigger and stronger than me) to make any headway and not get sent way off course; in a hardshell or folding kayak conditions would have been little or no sweat. I have seen people drifting around in the harbor in cheap Sevylor inflatables with $10 toy paddles...they wouldn't have a chance if conditions got windy and wavy. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Woodard wrote: > > John Winters wrote: > > > Unfortunately they printed the graphs in such a small scale that taking > > information off results in lots of error not to mention the error due to > > normal distortions of copies etc. Doing the best I could for 5 degrees of > > leeway I got a 1.8% increase in drag at 2 knots, 11.4% increase > > at 3 knots and 14% increase at 4 knots. > > Thanks John. This is the kind of information I like to see. > > In this rudder vs. non-rudder debate, I can't help think about a little > snippet I read in Derek Hutchinson's book on Sea Kayaking: > > "A few years ago the sea kayaking world was a relatively small one, so that > if a kayak came on the market and had obvious faults the word was passed > round among paddlers by word of mouth. If the boat was a bad one, it usually > fell by the wayside and was never heard of again. This is not so today, and > the bad designs stand next to the good in the retail stores - caveat > emptor!" > > I think the discussion here has centered around if rudders are bad or not. A > few have avoided this debate and looked deeper and asked "why is the rudder > needed?". The rudder is not "bad" (at least no one has presented any > evidence to show that it is) but some have offered evidence that it retards > a boats efficiency (is this bad?). > > Matt Broze has repeatably stated that a rudder is not needed. To back that > up he designs boats that he stands behind not needing one. A pretty powerful > statement. Rather than trying to prove that rudders are bad, he proves (at > least to some people) that they aren't needed when the design is correct. I > like that approach. > > The little blurb I quoted from John W's post above is the second piece of > information posted that shows there may be a significant increase in drag > with a rudder deployed. This doesn't mean rudders are bad, but does indicate > a paddler who needs a rudder may pay a premium for it if (s)he decides to > use it. This certainly seems to fit with what I've observed while using my > rudder (low/no drag at lower speeds, noticeable drag at higher speeds), but > my body is not calibrated enough to place a number on the amount of drag I'm > experiencing. > > There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I > missed any: > > 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. > > 2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. > > You have to empathize with those suffering from #1, and can only encourage > those suffering from #2 to get better. Some people don't know to which > category they belong (yet); something that experience will hopefully tell > them one day. > > I think it would be interesting when someone asks for opinions on a certain > design in this forum, to read "that boat needs a rudder all the time - that > boat needs a rudder in high winds - that boat never needs a rudder". When > this starts to happen, as a group maybe we can again start to weed out the > bad designs. > > Woody I have a better ideal. Why don't you share with us all what kind of kayak we should be paddling, as I think you might be on to something. Where was someone like you when I started out? I suspect you could help my paddle stroke also. James, amused(really):-) "honest!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Robert Woodard" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net> > > I wonder, though, if what is considered a design shortfall by some may be > > seen as an asset to someone else... i.e. Audrey Sutherland's inflatable. > > Can you call her inflatable a design shortfall? There's no question > > she has the skill. Seems she's found what she wants to paddle and in > > some conditions, it requires a rudder. <snip> > For this line of thinking, in the few short hours since posting my original > message on this subject, apparently a few folks have either publicly or > privately taken it as a personal attack on their skill level or choice in > kayak design or possibly something I don't yet understand. Relax. Don't take > my words so seriously or as a personal attack. How I, as a devout rudder > user, got all the other rudder users pissed off at me is freaking amazing. > Maybe a couple of you rudderless folks could say something condescending > towards me so I can feel better again 8^) I don't think I've seen anyone taking your comment as a personal attack, at least not publicly. I hope you haven't taken my reply as being "pissed off." It really was intended as a kind of query into the aspect of different boat designs. I have two boats without rudders, one with and they are all designed for different purposes. What I wonder is... is it possible to design a rudderless kayak to meet all needs? I'm not sure design flaw is what I would choose to describe boats with rudders (though I will definitely agree there are some boat designs, rudderless and ruddered, that have flaws). It's kind of like the difference between shapes of vehicles, isn't it? A van serves one purpose that is not the same as a Mazda Miata, for example. Can this design difference relate to kayak design meeting different needs and wants? btw, I've had the same thoughts as you at another time in list history. I guess I didn't hold any real conviction one way or the other. Just more questions. > I still stick by #1 or #2 or a combination of both are the only reasons to > use a rudder. (I'm excluding special applications such as sailing or kite > flying. Valid reasons but they only apply to a few of you) *I* too am > included somewhere in #1 or #2 (or both)! How about westies on board? :-) Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Woodard +AD4-John Winters wrote: +AD4- +AD4APg- Unfortunately they printed the graphs in such a small scale that taking +AD4APg- information off results in lots of error not to mention the error due to +AD4APg- normal distortions of copies etc. Doing the best I could for 5 degrees of +AD4APg- leeway I got a 1.8+ACU- increase in drag at 2 knots, 11.4+ACU- increase +AD4APg- at 3 knots and 14+ACU- increase at 4 knots. +AD4- +AD4-There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I +AD4-missed any: +AD4- +AD4-1) To compensate for a design shortfall. +AD4- +AD4-2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. +AD4- 3) To steer the boat. Definition: Rudder, noun. Flat piece hinged to vessel's stern for steering with. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary) I think this is what most people use it for. In any case, John appears to be writing about leeway, which affects both the ruddered and the rudderless similarly. For Bob, who wrote, +ACI-Also sailboards don't have rudders+ACIAOw- true, but they have a skeg (or two), and round the buoys racing models (as opposed to wave jumpers) often have a centreboard. Not a good comparison unless your kayak has at least one skeg. I often paddle on weed infested hydro lakes, where trying to use a rudder can bring you to a halt, so I have plenty of experience of doing without. Sometimes though, in clear water, my yachting background gets the better of me, down goes the rudder and I sail off downwind. Cheers Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> 3) To steer the boat. > > Definition: Rudder, noun. Flat piece hinged to vessel's stern for steering > with. (Pocket Oxford Dictionary) > > I think this is what most people use it for. Chalk this up to my being somewhat new to kayaks. I thought someone had taught me a rudder on a kayak was used to make it go straight. > In any case, John appears to be > writing about leeway, which affects both the ruddered and the rudderless > similarly. Once again I misunderstood. John wrote leeway and I attributed it to the effects of a leeboard! My apologies to John for mis-applying his words. Woody (looking for something to pry my foot out of my mouth) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Try using the rudder! Debs > ---------- > From: Robert Woodard[SMTP:woodardr_at_tidalwave.net] > > Chalk this up to my being somewhat new to kayaks. I thought someone had > taught me a rudder on a kayak was used to make it go straight. > > Woody (looking for something to pry my foot out of my mouth) > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I > missed any: > > 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. > > 2) To compensate for lack of paddler skill. > > You have to empathize with those suffering from #1, and can only encourage > those suffering from #2 to get better. Some people don't know to which > category they belong (yet); something that experience will hopefully tell > them one day. Somedays, I just shouldn't get out of bed, much less let my fingers to any typing. After re-reading this post after a decent nights sleep...in the words of Rosann Rosanna Danna <sp> "Never Mind". That message simply sounds too curt. Sorry guys. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Woody wrote: > There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I > missed any: 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. 2) To compensate for lack of >paddler skill.<snip> Woody had second thoughts: >Somedays, I just shouldn't get out of bed, much less let my fingers to any >typing. After re-reading this post after a decent nights sleep...in the >words of Rosann Rosanna Danna <sp> "Never Mind". >That message simply sounds too curt. Sorry guys. >Woody Doug adds his thoughts: Yes, a bit curt as other posters have indicated, but...you are essentially correct on the aspect of design and skill, as it _relates to the person who is advising either for or against rudder use_ and where there "coming from". Let me explain my observations: Back about twenty years ago, in this part of the world anyway, (PNW) veteran paddlers like John Dowd opened up kayaking retail stores. If their background was folding boats, like his, then rudders were often promoted. Other stores opened up, that were more British kayak oriented, and rudders were unheard of on a properly designed boat, according to them. As the market blossomed, a lot of unskilled paddlers entered the fray. I mean a lot. It is my belief (and I could be completely wrong and off-base here) that putting these new paddlers into ruddered boats facilitated fast-tracking them (pardon the pun) into the sport with minimum training efforts and maximum enjoyment. Many of the Brit boat owners found that their kayaks had handling difficulties. Some of us, early on, jumped ship and put rudders on our kayaks. Slowly, most of the Brit boats started coming with skegs. And slowly, better instruction became available, and Brit boat owners found out about edging, leaning, etc, (but skegs stayed). PNW kayak owners got more demanding. Builders and retailers saw lots of potential market (again, the almighty $), and are now finding a new market from their old market, as they get people to switch into the rudderless kayaks. Then there are guys like Matt and Cam, who have always built boats that do well without rudders. Matt and Cam have always been out in left field, walking the road less traveled. (I will always respect the two brothers for holding their ground in a sport where often the participants float around aimlessly at the whim of popular thought). They want a "few good paddlers, which is good, as they only have a "few good boats" :-) My other observations are directly from what I have observed on the water, and I stand behind my statements more fully than above. These are not opinions, okay? I've seen guys who do not use rudders, who paddle in extreme conditions, and hate rudders with glee - and are always willing to share. These people do *not* do extended, multi-day trips on the exposed, windy coast. I have also seen rudderless kayaker users, use skill, finesse, and constant correction strategies to stay on course in rough, windy conditions, with great effect. However, if the time-frame is long enough, the one's with skegs usually succumb to using them. I have seen a boat or two where this was not needed, but the design compromised other aspects of the "total package performance". My biggest shock, and I've mentioned his on a previous post, was with a highly skilled paddler in a Sirius, with a skeg, in a quartering sea with a 30 knot gale. The man never paddled the kayak again after that trip (he had done previous trips in it too) and now paddles a Gulfstream. The straight tracking former kayak would run off the wave, and too much effort was required to bring it back on course. The Gulfstream type of hull allows for easy leaning and fast course correction, though his newer boat is a bit slower. Ah, compromise. In short, choppy seas (ie lots of wind with not much duration or fetch yet) the amount of ruddering movement with your feet and the pressure on the rudder footrests as waves wash by astern, is much more annoying than the amount of course correcting by paddle and body language, where that type of kayak is used that is more maneuverable. In summary: 1. Much of the rudder promulgation has been market driven (my belief). 2. Context dictates what you are being told by the local "paddling god" or icon. 3. The "move" is on to more rudderless kayaks, the newest promulgation and cash generator (a/b caveat). 4. Armchair discussions are fine, but get out there with some other folks with variously designed boats, both rudderless and skegless, and visa versa, and do some comparison tracking with each other, making observations and reviewing info on the water and back at the beach. 5. Don't paddle with rudder-dependent kayakers or kayakers with rudder-dependent kayaks in questionable conditions, unless you really like towing your companions if their rudder stops working. 6. All kayaks are a compromise in design and functional priority. There are no perfect answers or perfect kayaks. This will ensure the rudder debate (and other design aspect debates) shall continue on Paddlewise through the next Millennium, unless the Anti-Christ crawls out of the boiling red sea (filled with the blood of martyred rudderless Saints)and puts rudders stamped 666 on all kayaks world-wide :-) 7. Screw the rudder vs non-rudder, vs skeg, vs rudderless Mariner type kayaks with skeggy little keelsons, and just get out their and enjoy the sea, lake, estuary, or whatever. N.B. Note to dealers/retailers lurking about: I'm not being negative with this post. I'm simply offering a possible reason for some of the popular divergences over time. Please offer us as many different boats as you can. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's a non-expert follow on to Doug's comments. At 11:13 PM 10/07/1999 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Woody wrote: >> There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I >> missed any: 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. 2) To compensate for >lack of >paddler skill.<snip> Doug wrote: ... >fast-tracking them (pardon the pun) into the sport with minimum training >efforts and maximum enjoyment. ... There's much of the point. Many of the pros seem to be believe that all kayakers should be kayakers first and all else second. Many of the people getting kayaks these days are bird watchers or nature lovers, or just want exercise or outdoors time. Fast tracking people in is a good thing except when people are encouraged to get in places far above their skill and boat levels. Encourage diversity. Encourage enjoyment. >5. Don't paddle with rudder-dependent kayakers or kayakers with >rudder-dependent kayaks in questionable conditions, unless you really like >towing your companions if their rudder stops working. Here's something I learned from. My used kayak came with a rudder. I agreed with my wife that I would not go out in it before I took the Kayak I class. They taught the class and we did the following weekend's paddle in rudderless boats. A half dozen times they emphasized how one should always learn without a rudder in case one's rudder suddenly failed. (Their river/surfing kayaks lacked even a hint of keel). After the class, the first time I took my boat out I did not use the rudder. The next time I planned to split my time 50-50. 1-1/2 hours without the rudder, then I put the rudder down, and within 15 seconds had a rudder failure! The left pedal fell off completely. Because I had at least learned the basics without the rudder, it was no problem. Had I been dependent on the rudder, I would still be going in circles on Del Valle Reservoir. Nonetheless, I still use my rudder the majority of the time because I enjoy the more relaxed way I can paddle with it, emphasizing the forward racing or touring stroke. >7. Screw the rudder vs non-rudder, vs skeg, vs rudderless Mariner type >kayaks with skeggy little keelsons, and just get out their and enjoy the >sea, lake, estuary, or whatever. That's the real point. > >Doug Lloyd jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've noticed several theories about compass mounting for sea kayaks: 1) Don't mount - use a hand compass. 2) Mount it straight to the deck. 3) Mount a beveled or curved wood base to the deck, then mount the compass with a removable mount to the flat top of the wood base. 4) Use only bungies or straps for a completely removable mount. I'm interested in opinions on this. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry Hawkins wrote: > Here's a non-expert follow on to Doug's comments. > > At 11:13 PM 10/07/1999 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >Woody wrote: > >> There are only 2 reasons I've seen to use a rudder. Someone tell me if I > >> missed any: 1) To compensate for a design shortfall. 2) To compensate for > >lack of >paddler skill.<snip> > > Doug wrote: > ... > >fast-tracking them (pardon the pun) into the sport with minimum training > >efforts and maximum enjoyment. > ... > There's much of the point. Many of the pros seem to be believe that all kayakers should be kayakers first and all else second. Many of the people getting kayaks these days are bird watchers or nature lovers, or just want exercise or outdoors time. Fast tracking people in is a good thing except when people are encouraged to get in places far above their skill and boat levels. Encourage diversity. Encourage enjoyment. I think there's potential value in rudders as a way of introducing newbies to kayaking. My sweetie, Amie, paddled last year for the first time "full time". We bought her a kayak after renting several different types. She basically likes kayaking (her background is canoeing) but kayaks more because I love it and we do things together. (yes, I have to do stuff she likes) She couldn't get the hang of the boat without the rudder at first. We worked on it and she understood what she had to do. Some lessons later, she started to get it, but still used the rudder quite often. This year, the first time out she didn't use the rudder even though conditions weren't ideal. I commented on it towards the end of the day and she turned, looked at the rudder and said "I forgot about that!" She rarely used the rudder at all this year, reserving it for really rough winds or when she's too tired to use constant correction strokes. (And she won't get in over her head - I see to that!) The key is instruction and "weaning" the paddler off the rudder so it doesn't become a crutch. I emphasize to Amie and others that it's a "trim tab" rather than a steering device and it should be used as such. There are reasons for having rudders that have nothing to do with bad kayak design, being a poor paddler, being a wimp, etc. Ya can't sail without a rudder (unless you have several arms). I wouldn't want to go on a long trip in cross winds without one and would prefer to have one if I suffered from a sore shoulder or elbow on a trip and had to deal with wind. I want to get a "high performance" day paddling kayak and it won't have a rudder. But I'll keep my ruddered tripping boat for longer outings, even if i haven't used the rudder in a long time. I haven't used my first aid kit on a trip yet either, but always bring that so it's there in the event I need it. I think the rudder argument is like "real men don't eat quiche". Real men eat whatever they bloody well want to! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The key is instruction and "weaning" the paddler off the rudder so it doesn't become a > crutch. You can sail a boat without the rudder. It's an interesting exercise. No sailor in their right mind would do it routinely. It's not a "crutch", it's a tool. I emphasize to Amie and others that it's a "trim tab" rather than a steering > device and it should be used as such. Dagger has what they call an "integral rudder system" which they refer to as a "trim tab". Does anyone have experience with them? > I want to get a "high performance" day paddling kayak and it won't have a rudder. > But I'll keep my ruddered tripping boat for longer outings, even if i haven't used the > rudder in a long time. I Just about all "high performance" surf skis have rudders. At 20' long and less than 19" wide they don't turn well. It's not a "design flaw". It's the intent of the design. Go straight and fast. Turning is secondary. It's like shoes. Different footwear for different activities. I think it's great. Wish I had more room for more boats. > I think the rudder argument is like "real men don't eat quiche". Real men eat whatever > they bloody well want to! My favorite boat has no rudder. My other favorite boat does. The boat I have on order (which will probably arrive in the dead of winter) is a surf ski with the rudder mounted under the hull 40" from the stern. I'm already day-dreaming about the boat after that. Perhaps no rudder and lots of volume. Something I can take out and just get "hammered" in by the elements and still get back in one piece. Speed would be secondary. Dealing with 30 knot winds coming through the "slot" on SF Bay would be the priority. Any suggestions? Enjoy, delight, live Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> <SNIP> >I think there's potential value in rudders as a way of introducing newbies to kayaking. My sweetie, >Amie, paddled last year for the first time "full time". We bought her a kayak after renting several >different types. She basically likes kayaking (her background is canoeing) but kayaks more >because I love it and we do things together. (yes, I have to do stuff she likes) > >She couldn't get the hang of the boat without the rudder at first. We worked on it and she >understood what she had to do. Some lessons later, she started to get it, but still used >the rudder quite often. Since the need for a rudder is so boat dependent I would like to know what boat we are talking about when experiences are described. This is a lot like labelling "drugs" as bad when there are all sorts of different drugs which have all sorts of different actions. >This year, the first time out she didn't use the rudder >even though conditions weren't ideal. I commented on it towards the end of the day and >she turned, looked at the rudder and said "I forgot about that!" She rarely used the >rudder at all this year, reserving it for really rough winds or when she's too tired to >use constant correction strokes. (And she won't get in over her head - I see to that!) > >The key is instruction and "weaning" the paddler off the rudder so it doesn't become a >crutch. I emphasize to Amie and others that it's a "trim tab" rather than a steering >device and it should be used as such. This is the "put training wheels on your bike when you are learning" approach. Just slows the learning process way down and creates bad habits that you will need to unlearn. > >There are reasons for having rudders that have nothing to do with bad kayak design, >being a poor paddler, being a wimp, etc. Ya can't sail without a rudder (unless you >have several arms). A "V" sail work just fine without the rudder. Just tilt it in the opposite way you want to turn. >I wouldn't want to go on a long trip in cross winds without one >and would prefer to have one if I suffered from a sore shoulder or elbow on a trip >and had to deal with wind. Again what boats are you talking about that have given you these experiences. >I want to get a "high performance" day paddling kayak and it won't have a rudder. >But I'll keep my ruddered tripping boat for longer outings, even if i haven't used the >rudder in a long time. I haven't used my first aid kit on a trip yet either, but always >bring that so it's there in the event I need it. This arguement presupposes there aren't any disadvantages to having a rudder mounted when there are numerous ones. > >I think the rudder argument is like "real men don't eat quiche". Real men eat whatever >they bloody well want to! That's what I have always said. Real men don't let others tell them what to do or think either, but they are willing to listen to the arguments, experiment, and then decide for themselves what they want to do. They are also willing to put up with the flames and flack they get because of their decision. Real women too! Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> > <SNIP> > > >I think there's potential value in rudders as a way of introducing newbies > >to kayaking. My sweetie, Amie, paddled last year for the first time "full > >time". We bought her a kayak after renting several > >different types. [...] > > > >She couldn't get the hang of the boat without the rudder at first. We > >worked on it and she understood what she had to do. Some lessons later, > >she started to get it, but still used the rudder quite often. > > Since the need for a rudder is so boat dependent I would like to know what > boat we are talking about when experiences are described. This is a lot like > labelling "drugs" as bad when there are all sorts of different drugs which > have all sorts of different actions. As I said, she rented several different models - North Sea, Wilderness Systems somethinorother XS, CD GTS, a few others. The problem is hers, not the kayaks. Remember, Matt, the problem for the beginner is learning how to do a good sweep stroke, how to lean (this is particularly difficult for nervous beginners, convinced of the myth of tippy kayaks), how to do correction strokes etc. Most beginners, especially with canoeing experience, will adopt steering strokes (ruddering) while experienced kayakers avoid them. > >The key is instruction and "weaning" the paddler off the rudder so it > >doesn't become a crutch. I emphasize to Amie and others that it's a > >"trim tab" rather than a steering device and it should be used as such. > > This is the "put training wheels on your bike when you are learning" > approach. Just slows the learning process way down and creates bad habits > that you will need to unlearn. There are merits to training wheels. When I learned to ride a bike over forty years ago, my dad put training wheels on my bike for about a week. I'd play on it all day and he'd take the wheels off in the early evening and run alongside me while I struggled with balance. On the next weekend he took the wheels off for the last time. I remember very clearly yelling "Hey daddy, I'm doin' it!", turning to see him standing way back (while I though he was still holding on) and wiping out. He told me to get up and ride myself. I did and the training wheels were put away for good. Most kids have training wheels put on their bikes and the wheels are left on the bike for the summer. The parents never get involved in the teaching and the kids take forever to learn how to balance. Now note, wrt paddling, I said the key is instruction and weaning the paddler off the rudder - active involvement in the teaching and development of skills. Using the rudder allows the paddler to get the feel of other aspects of the kayak and experience the paddling environment without getting overly caught up in technique. One step at a time. If Amie had nothing but struggling to deal with when starting out, I'd not have a good paddling partner today and that doesn't make for a good relationship. > > > >There are reasons for having rudders that have nothing to do with bad kayak > design, > >being a poor paddler, being a wimp, etc. Ya can't sail without a rudder > (unless you > >have several arms). > > A "V" sail work just fine without the rudder. Just tilt it in the opposite > way you want to turn. But that's only one design. Will it work regardless of the point where the mast is stepped? What about those who use kites or umbrellas? If you assume everyone will paddle only one kayak model with all the same gear, then we may not need rudders, but this doesn't address the real marketplace. > > >I wouldn't want to go on a long trip in cross winds without one > >and would prefer to have one if I suffered from a sore shoulder or elbow on > a trip > >and had to deal with wind. > > Again what boats are you talking about that have given you these > experiences. Irrelevant. Can you design a kayak that won't require a rudder regardless of the paddler's size or weight, trim condition, wave or wind conditions, sail type, gear on deck, towing requirements etc, etc, etc? There are too many variables outside the control of the designer. I don't think you can do it. I've tried kayaks that the designer claimed didn't need a rudder (he told me he designed it not to have a rudder, but the maker added a rudder to make it sellable) I found a rudder helped when I was bushed at the end of a trip - wind and wind waves on my rear quarter. The relentless sweep strokes on one side were wearing me out. > > >I want to get a "high performance" day paddling kayak and it won't > >have a rudder. But I'll keep my ruddered tripping boat for longer > >outings, even if I haven't used the rudder in a long time. I > >haven't used my first aid kit on a trip yet either, but always > >bring that so it's there in the event I need it. > > This arguement presupposes there aren't any disadvantages to having a rudder > mounted when there are numerous ones. > I haven't heard an argument against that I can't discount. I personally believe that we haven't seen a really well designed rudder yet. Most wobble, many lack a proper cross section etc. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > ...<snip>... > I think the rudder argument is like "real men don't eat quiche". Wow. No Grok points for you. :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been following the "Rudder/No Rudder" controversy with some interest. I own two boats, a Current Designs Extreme High Volume and a Wilderness Systems Pongo. The CD Extreme is just under 19' long, while the Pongo is about 12.' I could not be more satisfied with the touring characteristics of the Extreme except in a stiff cross wind or cross current. Without using the rudder the boat will weather vane into the wind or current and can only be turned to maintain course with difficulty. It can be done but only with effort and it is necessary to maintain that effort to stay on course. I've tried it and it is exhausting in the long haul. A rudder is almost a necessity to manage this long narrow (21" wide) touring kayak on extended trips. The Pongo is a great sport boat, good for knocking around in surf, class I rapids, fishing or any short to medium trip. This boat is as wide as a bath tub, but handles beautifully in almost any conditions. It tracks straight in winds and currents. It is not equipped with a rudder and shouldn't be. My point is, a rudder may be required at times in certain conditions and circumstances. I could not enjoy touring without it. To categorically deny a legitimate place for ruddered boats does not take all situations into consideration. And I fail to understand what machismo has to do with common sense. Sounds like unnecessary work to me. Ray M. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry folks on my last post, the folowing is missing a word or two: >7. Screw the rudder vs non-rudder, vs skeg, vs rudderless Mariner type >kayaks with skeggy little keelsons, and just get out their and enjoy the >sea, lake, estuary, or whatever. It should say "screw the debate on..." P.S. I'm flame proof, just as long as I know you are out there enjoying yourselves! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/6/99 5:23:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << The reason for my entry into this thread was that I objected to the condescending attitude regarding "not waving to someone with a kayak on their SUV if it had a rudder" and "I wouldn't help carry a kayak with a rudder". The attitude smacks of elitism and is extremely condescending. >> Thanks for taking me seriously when others think dump, satire, and silly. Tom Cromwell Edmonds, Wa. USA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > ...<big snip>... I'm not going to adopt an > "Im too sexy for a rudder" mentality because a lot of people with far less > experience than Audrey think "real paddlers don't need rudders". Of course not--I wouldn't either. That would be very narrow minded. I have read and heard many complaints about this type of narrow mindedness on the part of others, but I have not seen it or experienced it myself (to any significant degree). It is very obvious to most advocates of rudder-free paddling that there are many "real paddlers", even exceptional paddlers, who use rudders. (Presumably there are also many "sexy" paddlers who use rudders, but I would rather not venture into that discussion.) Of course whenever there are disagreements about technique or equipment there is going to be some teasing back and forth, but it is all in fun. A problem can arise if some folks begin to take the teasing seriously. Misunderstandings can arise, and a statement made in jest can be misinterpreted as elitist or condescending. The following may be an example of this: > ...<another big snip>... > The reason for my entry into this thread was that I objected to the > condescending > attitude regarding "not waving to someone with a kayak on their SUV if it > had a rudder" and "I wouldn't help carry a kayak with a rudder". The attitude > smacks of elitism and is extremely condescending. Do you really believe that Tom (who made the statements you quote) would refuse to wave at a paddler with a ruddered boat, or would refuse to help them with their boat? I took his statement as poking fun at those who believe all of this claptrap about rudderless paddlers being elitist snobs who do not consider rudder users to be real paddlers. You have done nothing to dissuade me from the opinion (expressed in my earlier post) that there are a lot more AARPPs than ARPs. ;-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll help them carry the boat but when they run forward and try to have me carry the stern I inform them that the stern is their end to carry (for better or worse and in sickness and health). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: Dan Hagen <dan_at_hagen.net> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weatherhelm >John Fereira wrote: > >> ...<big snip>... I'm not going to adopt an >> "Im too sexy for a rudder" mentality because a lot of people with far less >> experience than Audrey think "real paddlers don't need rudders". > >Of course not--I wouldn't either. That would be very narrow minded. I >have read and heard many complaints about this type of narrow mindedness >on the part of others, but I have not seen it or experienced it myself >(to any significant degree). It is very obvious to most advocates of >rudder-free paddling that there are many "real paddlers", even >exceptional paddlers, who use rudders. (Presumably there are also many >"sexy" paddlers who use rudders, but I would rather not venture into >that discussion.) Of course whenever there are disagreements about >technique or equipment there is going to be some teasing back and forth, >but it is all in fun. A problem can arise if some folks begin to take >the teasing seriously. Misunderstandings can arise, and a statement made >in jest can be misinterpreted as elitist or condescending. The following >may be an example of this: > >> ...<another big snip>... >> The reason for my entry into this thread was that I objected to the >> condescending >> attitude regarding "not waving to someone with a kayak on their SUV if it >> had a rudder" and "I wouldn't help carry a kayak with a rudder". The attitude >> smacks of elitism and is extremely condescending. > >Do you really believe that Tom (who made the statements you quote) would >refuse to wave at a paddler with a ruddered boat, or would refuse to >help them with their boat? I took his statement as poking fun at those >who believe all of this claptrap about rudderless paddlers being elitist >snobs who do not consider rudder users to be real paddlers. You have >done nothing to dissuade me from the opinion (expressed in my earlier >post) that there are a lot more AARPPs than ARPs. ;-) > >Dan Hagen >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
14% is a whole lot more believable than the 40% you had mentioned in the original post. Still with a sailing canoe we are talking about a much bigger fin being forced through the water at an angle than anything usually found on a kayak. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: 735769 <735769_at_ican.net> To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Weatherhelm >As I mentioned earlier, I think most rudders and skegs could use some >improvement. > >Many skegs fit rather loosely in their trunks and have rough or irregular >edges. I believe the vibration (singing skeg or rudder) that some develop >usually results (not sure that other causes of vibration apply to kayaks >given their low speeds) from vortices shed off the trailing edge. Sailors >cured this problem by shaping the leading and trailing edges carefully. In >all my years of boat building and sailing I never found a case of singing >rudder or centerboard that reshaping the edges could not cure. In general >one wants a leading radius of around 1.5% of the chord length for rudders. I >suspect the same would apply to skegs where the boat has a tendency toward a >lot of leeway (in excess of 7 degrees). Sharp or squared off at an angle >trailing edges work nicely. > >Of course, one should have a rigid rudder head. To me the floppy rudder >heads cause a lot of problems including wear an tear on the system and poor >response. > >Both skegs and rudders work best when they have proper section shape. The >ubiquitous (among sailors) NACA 0006 and 0012 airfoils seem to work just >fine. If they didn't a sailboat race would sound like a giant kazoo band >engaging in a game of bumper cars. > >Improper shaping (mostly flat plates) causes most of the ventilation that >increases drag in a big way. Nicely rounded leading edges and a fuller >foil like the NACA 0012 just about eliminate it for all but the most >aggressive turning actions. Back when I was racing 505's I experimented with >an NACA a section supplied by a friend at NASA and despite all reasonable >efforts I could not make that rudder ventilate. The section was the same as >that used on the U-2 spy plane wing and designed for high lift. I believe >(but won't swear to it) that the section was designated NACA 2006. > >I have modified flat plate rudders by gluing wood on each side and then >shaping the blade. A little varnish and it looks rather sexy and works >better too. > >I prefer rudders with stops that prohibit turning the rudder more than 20 >degrees. This reduces the possibility of ventilation considerably. > >If one uses the rudder more like a trim tab and set it at an angle to hold >a course rather than wiggling it back and forth all the time it seems to >work quite well (someone mentioned that earlier but I cannot recall who). >Interestingly the Inuit seemed to have used their rudders this way. They had >control lines running around the front of the cockpit that they must have >adjusted and left since one can't paddle and handle lines at the same time. >Can learn a lot from those Inuit. > >Managed to dig out the paper on the International sailing canoe tests. For >those who want to get it search for Tanner, T. , Full Scale Tank Tests of an >International 10 Sq. Meter Class Canoe, Royal Institution of Naval >Architects, 1960, > >Unfortunately they printed the graphs in such a small scale that taking >information off results in lots of error not to mention the error due to >normal distortions of copies etc. Doing the best I could for 5 degrees of >leeway I got a 1.8% increase in drag at 2 knots, 11.4% increase at 3 knots >and 14% increase at 4 knots. > >Now, don't go off and quote me on those saying that John Winters said that >Blah blah blah % blah% blah% !!!!!! First off, even Tanner admitted to some >problems in fairing the data and my take-off certainly won't win any awards >for precision. In any case, the graphs do suggest that leeway can result in >considerable added resistance and that it may even pay to design boats with >small keels or hull shapes that resist leeway. > >Lots of options here and fun for designers, builders, and advertising copy >writers. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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