Last night I received the REI Holiday 99 gift preview catalog. On page 90, selling for only $380, is a bright red Perception Swify recreational kayak [9'5" x 29"] with its bow overlaying a stunning photo of 2 sea kayakers paddling along an exposed coast in tropical-looking, turquoise water. Both these kayakers are clearly paddling full size sea kayaks. The rest of the page has water sports related gear (dry bags, deck bag, weather radio . . .). I was troubled by this image because I have had many interactions with "newbies" who call or show up for open water trips with their small recreational boats. They did not understand there was a distinction between the design of a recreational kayak and that of a touring kayak. A kayak is a kayak, right? I could never figure out where they were getting such misinformation, although some admitted that their purchase was based 100% on price (again, note the $380 price tag). Now I have a beautiful color catalog that clearly depicts the problem. Let me state that I do not believe that it was REIs intent to deceive unwary customers. I believe REI to be a responsible outdoor reseller. However, I am concerned with the way this page is laid out and I feel an obligation to speak up. Hopefully, their marketing department will hear my plea. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Let me state that I do not believe that it was REIs intent to deceive unwary >customers. I believe REI to be a responsible outdoor reseller. However, I >am concerned with the way this page is laid out and I feel an obligation to >speak up. Hopefully, their marketing department will hear my plea. > In a similar vein, I have seen the effects of the Sevylor ads for the Tahitis. Not a few show this little inflatable in fairly hefty whitewater and the text in the ad does say something like usable in Class III water. What the ad does NOT say is that the Paddler is experienced in Class III and thus can compensate for the shortcomings of the Tahiti under such conditions. I have seen people, completely unprepared, putting in on the Tohickon (a III+ stream) with one of these; believing that this was an inexpensive way to start in ww rather than those expensive stiff plastic thingies. They've told me that once I got them to shore........ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:37 PM 10/13/99 -0400, Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: >Last night I received the REI Holiday 99 gift preview catalog. On page 90, >selling for only $380, is a bright red Perception Swify recreational kayak >[9'5" x 29"] with its bow overlaying a stunning photo of 2 sea kayakers >paddling along an exposed coast in tropical-looking, turquoise water. Both >these kayakers are clearly paddling full size sea kayaks. I don't have access to the picture but I took a look at their web site and they do try to make a distinction between "touring kayaks" and what they call "Day Touring/Recreational Kayaks". What I *do* disagree with is the statement in their description of the recreational class boats: "In general, day touring boats are designed with beginners and recreational play boaters in mind." Since recreational boats are usually fairly inexpensive they look pretty attractive to beginners, but in my opinion these boats are designed for paddling conditions, and not necessarily for "beginning" paddlers. Due to their width, typically flat hulls, and short length they're very good for solely recreational paddling on quiet waters. They're good if you want a craft that is going to be very stable on quiet waters for fishing or picture taking. They are not, however, a very good choice for a beginning paddler, if that person wants to become an intermediate/advanced paddler. The excessive initial stability restricts ones ability to edge/lean the boat, the typically poor secondary stability makes it difficult to learn how to brace, and the width, flat hull, and wide cockpits make it extremely difficult to learn how to roll. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Last night I received the REI Holiday 99 gift preview catalog. On page 90, > selling for only $380, is a bright red Perception Swify recreational kayak > [9'5" x 29"] with its bow overlaying a stunning photo of 2 sea kayakers > paddling along an exposed coast in tropical-looking, turquoise water. Both > these kayakers are clearly paddling full size sea kayaks. The rest of the > page has water sports related gear (dry bags, deck bag, weather radio . . A couple of summers ago L.L. Bean did something similar on one of the covers of their summer catalogs. They showed two people heading out to what appeared to be an island off the coast of Maine with wide open ocean in the background. The only trouble(IMHO)was the two were paddling two of Beans' rec boats(something like Acadias, if I remember correctly). I agree that it is misleading to those new to the sport. Could also be dangerous to those that buy similar boats and assume they can "just paddle out to the island", just like in the picture on the catalog. It's probably a dilemma. The big stores seem to be selling lots of these rec boats and they want to make them look as enticing and fun as possible. Unfortunately, the implication of pictures such as these is that these boats can safely do more than the design intended. Dennis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > Last night I received the REI Holiday 99 gift preview catalog. On page 9 >SNIP< > I was troubled by this image because I have had many interactions with > "newbies" who call or show up for open water trips with their small > recreational boats. They did not understand there was a distinction between > the design of a recreational kayak and that of a touring kayak. A kayak is > a kayak, right? I could never figure out where they were getting such > misinformation, although some admitted that their purchase was based 100% on > price (again, note the $380 price tag). Now I have a beautiful color > catalog that clearly depicts the problem. > > Let me state that I do not believe that it was REIs intent to deceive unwary > customers. I believe REI to be a responsible outdoor reseller. However, I > am concerned with the way this page is laid out and I feel an obligation to > speak up. Hopefully, their marketing department will hear my plea. > People are a strange lot. They have to have labels and warnings on everything. Maybe it's because we do too much warning? Maybe we should let natural selection take over? Why should it be necessary to have to tell someone that it's not safe to put honey on their kids face, so they could get a picture of a bear licking it off? Some people belong in the outdoors, some don't. Some people belong in the city, some don't. Beautiful pictures won't lure me there! :-) James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think Debbie is completely right with this. It appears that the copy writer for the catalog got a little carried away. According to Perception's Web site - the Swifty is designed for rivers, lakes, and ponds. They don't mention the word ocean anywhere in conjunction with this boat. They also say that the boat is a beginner level boat. IMHO, you need a little more experience than beginner for ocean paddling. Hopefully, REI (which I am a member of) will get this straightened out with the next catalog. My prior experience with them has always been positive. Steve Holtzman > Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:37:02 -0400 > From: "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Unintentional Deception > > Let me state that I do not believe that it was REIs intent to deceive unwary > customers. I believe REI to be a responsible outdoor reseller. However, I > am concerned with the way this page is laid out and I feel an obligation to > speak up. Hopefully, their marketing department will hear my plea. > > Debbie Reeves > Sandy Hook, NJ > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote, "... Hopefully, REI (which I am a member of) will get this straightened out with the next catalog. My prior experience with them has always been positive..." A few years ago, our local (College Park, MD) REI rented out some kayaks which wound up on a Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) beginnners' trip; when working basic safety issues at the start of the trip with the newbies, we discovered that REI had sent the boats out without any paddlefloats, and we had to demo and instruct self rescues with spare equipment. A letter to REI College Park objecting to this business practice brought an immediate written response which acknowledged our concern and agreed with our conclusions --- and which also promised an immediate change in the store's rental procedures. My experiences with REI are similar to Steve's --- they are always positive. Sometimes things happen in advertising visual layouts which unintentionally challenge clear safety parameters --- nice catch, Deb --- but I'm optimistic that REI will try to make it right and correct their ad procedures in the future as a result of this problem. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > A few years ago, our local (College Park, MD) REI rented out some kayaks which wound up on a Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) beginnners' trip; when working basic safety issues at the start of the trip with the newbies, we discovered that REI had sent the boats out without any paddlefloats, and we had to demo and instruct self rescues with spare equipment.< I suspect that most of the more vocal of us PaddleWisers have had nil experience in renting kayaks. I have rented at times and found the situation, to say the least, distressing. You should try it to see what info gets out to the rentee and the state of the equipment handed to them and the level of advice and tips. First of all, many places where you rent and use the kayak from their dock or nearby will _not_ issue you a sprayskirt. The supposition, a good one, is that complete novices using a sprayskirted kayak with no wet exit experience, might get entrapped. Second, never extra flotation even in kayaks with no bulkheads. Since the boats being rented tend to be wider kayaks, the boats will probably sink out of sight in a capsize that kept getting water in to the cockpit in attempts to re-enter. Third, never a bilge pump which makes dealing with point number 2 a near impossibility. Fourth, as our good friend Jack observed, no paddle float. But with a paddler not ever having use one, what would be the use. A pump they can figure out; a paddle float not necessarily; I have seen seasoned paddlers who have carried a paddle float but never practiced using one, not being able to do it when the time came; their puzzlement "Gee, I thought I knew how to use it from reading about it." (BTW,Yes, I do know that those paddlers on the CPA trip probably indicated they were on a trip but not specifically stating the possibility of re-entry drills.) Fifth, no whistles on PFDs nor any form of signaling device. Theoritically, the Coast Guard could yank such a novice paddler for not having the required minimum signaling devices. I think, except for absolute beginning paddlers who have signed on to this list, that PaddleWisers tend to be so far along in their own development that they are really unaware what is happening in the real world out there, I mean rentals and even new purchases of kayaks at retail outlets other than dedicated paddling shops. Given the paucity of gear and tips, I am amazed how few beginners get hurt using rentals. For me, it is proof that there must be a God up there somewhere who watches over not only children and drunks but also unawares paddlers. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote, "...I think, except for absolute beginning paddlers who have signed on to this list, that PaddleWisers tend to be so far along in their own development that they are really unaware what is happening in the real world out there, I mean rentals and even new purchases of kayaks at retail outlets other than dedicated paddling shops." All good points, Ralph. Would like to address the last point --- re retailers. For what it's worth, the Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) has developed a pretty good rapport with most of the local kayak retailers. These folks, I'm guessing, probably out of fear of litigation, don't want to get into instruction as a sideline. (It would be interesting to find out just what obligations, if any, a retailer has to its public in terms of education --- probably a state or provincial requirement --- in the use of sold or rented equipment; anybody know for sure?) But they do use the CPA as an educational backup, and, in turn, provide extensive support the club in the form of resources and space when we need it. Maybe the best rule is to think globally but to act locally --- have your local paddling organization, if you have one, become more proactive with the local retailers and/or rental agents to offer the resources of the club to newbies. The option, it would seem, is the concerns being debated in other threads about governmental regulation. The CPA gets great support from the business end of kayaking, and provides some good symbiotic assistance to them, as well. May not be the best model, but it works. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, My recent rental experience in New Hampshire: 1) Not one question about my experience level or training. 2) Did not supply a sprayskirt until I requested one, then "Oh, you want that?" 3) No pump, nor even a sponge. 4) No map or instructions on areas to see or avoid. 5) At least it had floatation in both ends. 6) No compass or signalling device. 7) They gave me a life jacket but didn't even seem interested in whether I wore it or not. >From what I hear this is typical most places, with the exception of a few of the best shops. jerry. At 09:12 AM 10/14/1999 -0700, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > >> A few years ago, our local (College Park, MD) REI rented out some kayaks which wound up on a Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) beginnners' trip; when working basic safety issues at the start of the trip with the newbies, we discovered that REI had sent the boats out without any paddlefloats, and we had to demo and instruct self rescues with spare equipment.< > >I suspect that most of the more vocal of us PaddleWisers have had nil >experience in renting kayaks. I have rented at times and found the >situation, to say the least, distressing. You should try it to see what >info gets out to the rentee and the state of the equipment handed to >them and the level of advice and tips. > >First of all, many places where you rent and use the kayak from their >dock or nearby will _not_ issue you a sprayskirt. The supposition, a >good one, is that complete novices using a sprayskirted kayak with no >wet exit experience, might get entrapped. > >Second, never extra flotation even in kayaks with no bulkheads. Since >the boats being rented tend to be wider kayaks, the boats will probably >sink out of sight in a capsize that kept getting water in to the cockpit >in attempts to re-enter. > >Third, never a bilge pump which makes dealing with point number 2 a near >impossibility. > >Fourth, as our good friend Jack observed, no paddle float. But with a >paddler not ever having use one, what would be the use. A pump they can >figure out; a paddle float not necessarily; I have seen seasoned >paddlers who have carried a paddle float but never practiced using one, >not being able to do it when the time came; their puzzlement "Gee, I >thought I knew how to use it from reading about it." (BTW,Yes, I do >know that those paddlers on the CPA trip probably indicated they were on >a trip but not specifically stating the possibility of re-entry drills.) > >Fifth, no whistles on PFDs nor any form of signaling device. >Theoritically, the Coast Guard could yank such a novice paddler for not >having the required minimum signaling devices. > >I think, except for absolute beginning paddlers who have signed on to >this list, that PaddleWisers tend to be so far along in their own >development that they are really unaware what is happening in the real >world out there, I mean rentals and even new purchases of kayaks at >retail outlets other than dedicated paddling shops. > >Given the paucity of gear and tips, I am amazed how few beginners get >hurt using rentals. For me, it is proof that there must be a God up >there somewhere who watches over not only children and drunks but also >unawares paddlers. > >ralph diaz > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter >PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 >Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com >"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote, "...From what I hear this is typical most places, with the exception of a few of the best shops." Suspect you're right, Jerry. On the other end of the spectrum is a place like Monterey Bay Kayaks --- the best instruction available, great boats, great people, but you have to be able to convince them that you really know what you're doing before they'll let you take out demo or rental boats if you haven't first taken one of their very comprehensive courses in technique and self rescue. Once they've accepted you and believe that you know what you're doing, what a great time you can have there! Incredibly beautiful paddling! I checked in with our local (Annapolis, MD) Eastern Mountain Sports (EMS) store. They are precluded by their own corporate mandate from giving any sort of instruction or direction. As I guessed, their lawyers won't let them, and, I guess, they're right --- too many idiots who'll come back to a corporation with deep pockets as soon as they do something dumb and get in trouble. But, in EMS' flyer on rental kayaks, they specifically state that they'll provide the boat, PFD, skirt, pump, and paddlefloat --- although they haven't provided whistles on their PFDs (but are now planning to, thanks to whoever mentioned it earlier in this thread). Business is business, I guess. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Suspect you're right, Jerry. On the other end of the spectrum >is a place like Monterey Bay Kayaks --- the best instruction >available, great boats, great people, but you have to be able >to convince them that you really know what you're doing before >they'll let you take out demo or rental boats if you haven't >first taken one of their very comprehensive courses in >technique and self rescue. Once they've accepted you and >believe that you know what you're doing, what a great time >you can have there! Incredibly beautiful paddling! I haven't rented there but I was at their shop this morning. Believe it or not, on weekdays they will allow you to park in their lot and use their piece of gorgeous beach for launching and exit. Then after your finished paddling you can use their wash down racks and changing rooms. It's simple good business, as they aren't busy on weekdays, and the odds are good they'll sell you something sooner or later, but how many places are so friendly and supportive. Every 4th Saturday they have Demo day where they say you can test any boat they have in stock. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm looking forward to testing it. Today the bay was smooth as glass, literally, everything was reflected. Temperature was about 75 deg. at 10:30AM and 80 at 2PM. No breeze until after I left at 2:30. It was comfortable while you were paddling but when I stopped I started to steam and my glasses fogged up. Really terrible paddling weather, I had to jump out of the boat a couple of times to cool off. :-) I counted a half dozen sea otter, an equal number of dolphins, tho' I didn't get very close to the latter, loads of sea lions, harbor seals, pelicans, loons, the ubiquitous sea gulls, and other birds. I also counted about a dozen kayaks scattered over the area between MBK and the Monterrey Bay Aquarium area. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Flory, San Jose, CA. dflory_at_earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------------------------- Speak softly and study Aikido, then you won't need a big stick. -------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Dave Flory wrote: (re Monterey Bay Kayaks) > I haven't rented there but I was at their shop this morning. Believe it > or not, on weekdays they will allow you to park in their lot and use > their piece of gorgeous beach for launching and exit. Then after your > finished paddling you can use their wash down racks and changing rooms. > It's simple good business, as they aren't busy on weekdays, and the odds > are good they'll sell you something sooner or later, but how many places > are so friendly and supportive. Florida Bay Outfitters, in Key Largo, also. But they have no changing room. e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Florida Bay Outfitters, in Key Largo, also. But they have no changing > room. e > > Elaine Harmon - at the kayak place (on Shims Creek?) just north of Charleston, SC... the changing room is quite special. so is Charleston... do i like shrimp, yes....especially with grits. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Once upon a time, and it seems like such a long time ago, there was a quiet little seaside town. In this quiet little seaside town, two good people started kayaking businesses. The first good paddler sold sit-on-top kayaks. These were friendly little boats and everybody loved them. All the good people would paddle around and shout, "Hey, look at me I'm kayaking!" The first good paddler rented many boats and all the good people loved him. This made the first good paddler very glad. The first good paddler's name was Dick. Now, the second good paddler, who's name was Buddy, was a mean man. He did not rent his boats to everyone with a credit card. He wanted to charge the good people for lessons, if you can believe that. This man made the good people wear Pfd's and water shoes and even made them do something called a wet exit. Why, even his boats did not seem user friendly. You could not sit on top, "this cannot be a kayak" the good people exclaimed. This made the good paddler very sad. He knew in his heart that he was doing the right thing. There are two morals to this story. First, be a Buddy. Do what you know is right. Second, don't be a Dick. Bruce Whole Earth Outfitters www.wholeearthoutfitters.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:49 PM 10/14/99 EDT, Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > There are two morals to this story. > First, be a Buddy. Do what you know is right. > Second, don't be a Dick. > >Bruce >Whole Earth Outfitters >www.wholeearthoutfitters.com Bruce keep your day job :) Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote: > >From what I hear this is typical most places, with the exception > of a few of the best shops. I've rented from 3 different shops, with 2 different results: The first was a rental boat for a friend interested in kayaking. Spring River was the name of the shop and I went along as transportation for the kayak. After filling out a quick rental agreement, my friend was pointed to a fenced in area across the parking lot and told to go get it. In the fenced area there were PFDs, spray skirts, and paddlefloats, but the only reason he knew he needed any of the stuff was because I told him so. This friend was also previously turned down by shop #3 because he had no experience. The second was a rental for me (Ski Chalet). I had my eye on a boat and wanted to try it out for a day before I would seriously consider buying one. Again no questions, and since I already had all my own gear, I only requested a sprayskirt. They looked around and finally gave me one, which I wanted to test fit before leaving the store. The skirt was so tight I'm *sure* I wouldn't have been able to get it off in a panic situation. I insisted on a bigger one which they did locate. The third, Atlantic Canoe & Kayak, was also a rental for me. Another kayak I had my eye on. I paid twice what other area shops rented for (I later bought the boat and got my rental fee back). The folks in the shop knew me so there was no hesitation to rent to me. However, my friend who had tried before they would not rent to because of no experience. I've been in the store when people who say they are experienced wanted to rent, but the shop operator would make them go down to the water and demonstrate a wet *entry* before renting to them (anyone can do a wet exit). The high rental price is about the same as their guided tours. I asked the shop owner about this and she told me they really were not in the business to rent kayaks. I know she is VERY safety minded, and she told me she would prefer someone new take a guided tour from them rather than attempt to go out on their own, or participate in thier supervised water demos. A safety class is part of every kayak sale. Knowing these things, which shop would you recommend to someone else? Even if the prices are higher in shop #3, would you still recommend them? I've found myself going to shop #3 for every major purchase. I've made too many mistakes when trying to do it alone, that I feel a good deal better about buying from someone who seems to have my safety in mind. Everyone who works in the store paddles, and yes, they are trying to make a buck or two, but they also have enough experience that they can usually tell you the common problems or the best accessories. Regular customers end up with a 10% discount, which usually puts the price back down where the other shops are. Renter beware... Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:37 PM 10/14/99 -0400, Robert Woodard wrote: >Jerry wrote: > I've been in the store when >people who say they are experienced wanted to rent, but the shop operator >would make them go down to the water and demonstrate a wet *entry* before >renting to them (anyone can do a wet exit). I think that this is going a little too far. If someone isn't going to be paddling far from shore a wet entry isn't necessary, however, if someone capsizes 10' from shore and doesn't know how to release a spray skirt, or doesn't know enough to make sure the grab loop isn't tucked under the skirt, the results can be deadly. I took a class at the LL Bean symposium a couple of years ago. They had allowed several beginners to join the class (they had taking a beginning class the day before). It was clearly obvious that they hadn't done a wet exit because when one of them capsized he thrashed around for quite awhile before one of the instructions dove out of his boat and pulled him out of the cockpit. Last year a friend of mine started a kayak business and opened a shop in the spring. I was down there about every weekend and often a couple of other days helping with rentals and lessons. When he rents kayaks he won't give them a spray skirt unless they know how to do a wet exit. The shop is on an inlet that is fairly narrow. If someone capsized it would be easy to swim to shore towing the boat. The main lake is about a mile or so from the shop so many of the renters never get out in rougher water. When beginners rent boats we also spend a few minutes giving a safety spiel and basic paddle technique. One of the things we also do is have them rock their kayak back and forth, keeping their upper body straight, to make sure that their hips are loose. The ones that look like they're going to capsize any second are the ones that are usually afraid of tipping so they're really tight. Getting them to loosen up makes all the difference in the world. Probably the best service the shop offers is lessons. It also has turned out to be one of the most successful parts of the business. The lessons are affordable, fun, and strongly encouraged. One of the other real nice activities run through the shop is something that I organized last year. Every Thursday at 5:00pm we met at the shop and paddled out to the lake to practice a variety of skills. It was open to anyone that had at least a little experience. There were lots of wet exits and rescues, some people learned how to brace, and some how to roll. A few weeks ago I spent about an hour standing in the water helping a woman learn how to roll. A couple of weeks later she went out on a six week solo trip circumnavigating lake Ontario. (Is it still called circumnavigation if you paddle the shoreline of a large lake?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Why did the instructor need to exit his kayak. All he needed to do was come along side and reach underneath the kayak and release the trapped paddler's spray skirt. Had the instructor explained the wet exit technique before putting people into the kayak? If not, triple shame on him/her. Second, some sprayskirts have adjustable loops where the skirt attaches to the cockpit which can be adjusted loosely so someone capsizing will almost immediately exit the kayak. sid (Embedded image moved John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> to file: 10/15/99 08:17 AM pic07849.pcx) To: "Robert Woodard" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>, paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net cc: (bcc: Sidney Stone/AMS/AMSINC) Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rental Boats At 05:37 PM 10/14/99 -0400, Robert Woodard wrote: >Jerry wrote: > I've been in the store when >people who say they are experienced wanted to rent, but the shop operator >would make them go down to the water and demonstrate a wet *entry* before >renting to them (anyone can do a wet exit). I think that this is going a little too far. If someone isn't going to be paddling far from shore a wet entry isn't necessary, however, if someone capsizes 10' from shore and doesn't know how to release a spray skirt, or doesn't know enough to make sure the grab loop isn't tucked under the skirt, the results can be deadly. I took a class at the LL Bean symposium a couple of years ago. They had allowed several beginners to join the class (they had taking a beginning class the day before). It was clearly obvious that they hadn't done a wet exit because when one of them capsized he thrashed around for quite awhile before one of the instructions dove out of his boat and pulled him out of the cockpit. Last year a friend of mine started a kayak business and opened a shop in the spring. I was down there about every weekend and often a couple of other days helping with rentals and lessons. When he rents kayaks he won't give them a spray skirt unless they know how to do a wet exit. The shop is on an inlet that is fairly narrow. If someone capsized it would be easy to swim to shore towing the boat. The main lake is about a mile or so from the shop so many of the renters never get out in rougher water. When beginners rent boats we also spend a few minutes giving a safety spiel and basic paddle technique. One of the things we also do is have them rock their kayak back and forth, keeping their upper body straight, to make sure that their hips are loose. The ones that look like they're going to capsize any second are the ones that are usually afraid of tipping so they're really tight. Getting them to loosen up makes all the difference in the world. Probably the best service the shop offers is lessons. It also has turned out to be one of the most successful parts of the business. The lessons are affordable, fun, and strongly encouraged. One of the other real nice activities run through the shop is something that I organized last year. Every Thursday at 5:00pm we met at the shop and paddled out to the lake to practice a variety of skills. It was open to anyone that had at least a little experience. There were lots of wet exits and rescues, some people learned how to brace, and some how to roll. A few weeks ago I spent about an hour standing in the water helping a woman learn how to roll. A couple of weeks later she went out on a six week solo trip circumnavigating lake Ontario. (Is it still called circumnavigation if you paddle the shoreline of a large lake?) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of pic07849.pcx] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:23 AM 10/15/99 -0400, Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: >Why did the instructor need to exit his kayak. All he needed to do was >come along side and reach underneath the kayak and release the trapped >paddler's spray skirt. Assuming that the grab loop was out. I'm not sure why he decided to jump out of his boat. The guy was really trashing around so perhaps the instructor thought he could calm him down easier that way. There was also another instructor and seven other kayaks so both swimmers could easily be rescued. >Had the instructor explained the wet exit technique before putting people >into the kayak? If not, triple shame on him/her. No, he hadn't. The class was at a sea kayaking symposium. I mentioned this awhile back on a newsgroup and someone tried to explain it by indicating that at large symposiums like this one the classes are often not a good measurement of how good the instructors or the organization providing them might be. They just get so many people that they don't have time to evaluate all of the students. Personally, I don't think that beginners should have been allowed in an intermediate class without demonstrating a wet exit. Actually, I would have been better off in an advanced class, and in fact, had the opportunity to take the "Advanced Touring Techniques" class with Derek Hutchinson the next day. Unfortunately, they didn't check any prerequisites when people signed up for the class. Five of the eight students had signed up for the beginners class (because they had never kayaked before) for Friday, and the Intermediate class on Saturday. For some odd reason they didn't do wet exits in the beginners class, but instead had a separate class on rescues. BTW, in the local outfitting club that I am affiliated with does a lot of pool sessions and has weekly paddles during the summer that gets a lot of new paddlers. The first thing they do is have them do a wet exit. Once they've demonstrated two of them, and that doesn't just mean the ability to exit the boat, but to do so in a calm manner, they're allowed to use a paddle. > Second, some sprayskirts >have adjustable loops where the skirt attaches to the cockpit which can be >adjusted loosely so someone capsizing will almost immediately exit the >kayak. And some sprayskirts have "implosion bars" about midway between the tunnel and the front of the skirt that do double duty to keep water from pooling on the skirt. Unfortunately, the boats, paddles, and skirts were being supplied by a third party so the instructors were not familiar with what equipment was being used. I found that out last year when I took a class with Chris Duff. He hopped into one of the "class" boats and tried, and tried to get his spray skirt attached. Eventually, he asked me to come of and stablize his boat and hold down the back of the skirt so that he could get it attached. He was pretty perturbed about the shoddy gear that was being supplied for the classes. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
1. Trapped Paddler Rescue: I suspect the "instructor" was not proficient in the trapped paddler rescue. Exiting one's kayak to do a rescue should be a last resort. 2. When in situations where the skill levels of paddlers are not known by the instructor, leader, guide, etc. , a few minutes should be spent asking about people's experience and their ability to do things such as a wet exit. This is the instructor's responsibility regardless of the venue, and it only takes a few seconds. 3. Sounds like I have been extremely fortunate to paddle with and be coached by extremely competent, conscientious, and well trained instructors and guides. 4. I like the approach your local clib takes. sid (Embedded image moved John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> to file: 10/15/99 01:08 PM pic16153.pcx) To: Sidney Stone/AMS/AMSINC cc: "Robert Woodard" <Woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>, Paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rental Boats At 09:23 AM 10/15/99 -0400, Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: >Why did the instructor need to exit his kayak. All he needed to do was >come along side and reach underneath the kayak and release the trapped >paddler's spray skirt. Assuming that the grab loop was out. I'm not sure why he decided to jump out of his boat. The guy was really trashing around so perhaps the instructor thought he could calm him down easier that way. There was also another instructor and seven other kayaks so both swimmers could easily be rescued. >Had the instructor explained the wet exit technique before putting people >into the kayak? If not, triple shame on him/her. No, he hadn't. The class was at a sea kayaking symposium. I mentioned this awhile back on a newsgroup and someone tried to explain it by indicating that at large symposiums like this one the classes are often not a good measurement of how good the instructors or the organization providing them might be. They just get so many people that they don't have time to evaluate all of the students. Personally, I don't think that beginners should have been allowed in an intermediate class without demonstrating a wet exit. Actually, I would have been better off in an advanced class, and in fact, had the opportunity to take the "Advanced Touring Techniques" class with Derek Hutchinson the next day. Unfortunately, they didn't check any prerequisites when people signed up for the class. Five of the eight students had signed up for the beginners class (because they had never kayaked before) for Friday, and the Intermediate class on Saturday. For some odd reason they didn't do wet exits in the beginners class, but instead had a separate class on rescues. BTW, in the local outfitting club that I am affiliated with does a lot of pool sessions and has weekly paddles during the summer that gets a lot of new paddlers. The first thing they do is have them do a wet exit. Once they've demonstrated two of them, and that doesn't just mean the ability to exit the boat, but to do so in a calm manner, they're allowed to use a paddle. > Second, some sprayskirts >have adjustable loops where the skirt attaches to the cockpit which can be >adjusted loosely so someone capsizing will almost immediately exit the >kayak. And some sprayskirts have "implosion bars" about midway between the tunnel and the front of the skirt that do double duty to keep water from pooling on the skirt. Unfortunately, the boats, paddles, and skirts were being supplied by a third party so the instructors were not familiar with what equipment was being used. I found that out last year when I took a class with Chris Duff. He hopped into one of the "class" boats and tried, and tried to get his spray skirt attached. Eventually, he asked me to come of and stablize his boat and hold down the back of the skirt so that he could get it attached. He was pretty perturbed about the shoddy gear that was being supplied for the classes. [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of pic16153.pcx] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:07 PM 10/15/99 -0400, Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: >1. Trapped Paddler Rescue: I suspect the "instructor" was not proficient >in the trapped paddler rescue. Exiting one's kayak to do a rescue should >be a last resort. It seems to me that you're being awfully judgemental about the instructor (otherwise you wouldn't have put the word in quotes), when if fact you weren't there to witness what exactly happened. Neither you, nor I know what went through the instructors head when he was trying to rescue the capsized paddler. I didn't have a clear view of what the instructor tried to do because the capsized boat blocked my view. For all I know, he tried to release the skirt but was pulled over, or his spray skirt popped. But I *do* know that it was a calm day so neither kayaker was in danger of drifting away from the group,. I know that there were seven other boats within 100' (and probably well over 100 boats in the water within eyeshot), so the rescuer really wasn't at risk. I also would hesitate to call this a "trapped paddler rescue" but rather a rescue of someone that had no idea what he was supposed to do when he capsized. I do think that having someone in the water with the capsized paddler helped calm him down. >2. When in situations where the skill levels of paddlers are not known by >the instructor, leader, guide, etc. , a few minutes should be spent asking >about people's experience and their ability to do things such as a wet >exit. This is the instructor's responsibility regardless of the venue, and >it only takes a few seconds. I agree. >3. Sounds like I have been extremely fortunate to paddle with and be >coached by extremely competent, conscientious, and well trained instructors >and guides. Perhaps, though your statement implies that these instructors were not all that based on a situation that you did not even see. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I will admit being judgemental about the instructor and the situation. My comments were based on the description of the incident as posted on paddlewise. My key point is that exiting one's kayak in the situation mentioned, in my opinion, should have been a last resort regardless of the conditions. I would still content that this was a trapped paddler situation since the paddler was unable to wet exit, and that a trapped paddler rescue would possible be appropriate. The good news is that none was injured. I think I would have handled the situation differently based on the postings. sid (Embedded image moved John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> to file: 10/18/99 02:04 PM pic20101.pcx) To: Sidney Stone/AMS/AMSINC cc: "Robert Woodard" <Woodardr_at_tidalwave.net>, Paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Rental Boats At 09:07 PM 10/15/99 -0400, Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: >1. Trapped Paddler Rescue: I suspect the "instructor" was not proficient >in the trapped paddler rescue. Exiting one's kayak to do a rescue should >be a last resort. It seems to me that you're being awfully judgemental about the instructor (otherwise you wouldn't have put the word in quotes), when if fact you weren't there to witness what exactly happened. Neither you, nor I know what went through the instructors head when he was trying to rescue the capsized paddler. I didn't have a clear view of what the instructor tried to do because the capsized boat blocked my view. For all I know, he tried to release the skirt but was pulled over, or his spray skirt popped. But I *do* know that it was a calm day so neither kayaker was in danger of drifting away from the group,. I know that there were seven other boats within 100' (and probably well over 100 boats in the water within eyeshot), so the rescuer really wasn't at risk. I also would hesitate to call this a "trapped paddler rescue" but rather a rescue of someone that had no idea what he was supposed to do when he capsized. I do think that having someone in the water with the capsized paddler helped calm him down. >2. When in situations where the skill levels of paddlers are not known by >the instructor, leader, guide, etc. , a few minutes should be spent asking >about people's experience and their ability to do things such as a wet >exit. This is the instructor's responsibility regardless of the venue, and >it only takes a few seconds. I agree. >3. Sounds like I have been extremely fortunate to paddle with and be >coached by extremely competent, conscientious, and well trained instructors >and guides. Perhaps, though your statement implies that these instructors were not all that based on a situation that you did not even see. [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of pic20101.pcx] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
*************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:41:38 -0700 From: Dave Flory <dflory_at_earthlink.net> >Suspect you're right, Jerry. On the other end of the spectrum >is a place like Monterey Bay Kayaks --- the best instruction >available, great boats, great people, but you have to be able >to convince them that you really know what you're doing before >they'll let you take out demo or rental boats if you haven't >first taken one of their very comprehensive courses in >technique and self rescue. I would agree that MBK is a great place. They do not however, have any major requirements for renting of sit-on-top kayaks. They do have requirements for renting the old-fashioned enclosed cockpit type of kayaks. They obviously realize the old-fashioned kayaks are far less safe: more difficult to reenter from the water and susceptible to flooding. Dick Noyo Pacific Outfitters < www.noyopacific.com > Canoe & Kayak Rentals & Sales Noyo Harbor Fort Bragg, CA (707) 961-0559 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:02 AM 10/15/99 +0000, David Martin wrote: >Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:41:38 -0700 >From: Dave Flory <dflory_at_earthlink.net> > > >I would agree that MBK is a great place. They do not however, have any major >requirements for renting of sit-on-top kayaks. They do have requirements for >renting the old-fashioned enclosed cockpit type of kayaks. They obviously >realize the old-fashioned kayaks are far less safe: more difficult to >reenter from the water and susceptible to flooding. Old fashion kayaks? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I would agree that MBK is a great place. They do not however, have any major > requirements for renting of sit-on-top kayaks. However, included in their low rental fee is a wetsuit (along with pfd). That water is cold (by a Texan's standards :-) and by introducing a beginner to kayaking and including awareness about cold water gear along with pfd's is impressive. They do offer basic instruction for sit-on-top paddlers before they put the boat in the water. MBK has been taking these precautions for a long time, as far as I know. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote of Monterey Bay Kayaks, "...every 4th Saturday they have Demo day where they say you can test any boat they have in stock. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm looking forward to testing it." Yup. Great place. Was out there on a short assignment at the Naval Postgraduate School (too short!) and went back to say hello a few years ago. They had a brand new Khatsalano there when nobody else could get them, and, even though I hadn't been there in a few years, they actually offered me a demo when they saw me drooling on the hatch covers. Wouldn't have thought to request it --- but they let me take it out in some normal sized MB waves and surf! Another thing about MBK, they take gear very seriously. Their competition --- renting SOTs and rec boats, primarily, and even more cycles --- offered to supply a "drysuit" for paddling when I called them asking about wetsuits for the chilly water in the Bay. Turned out their "drysuits" were thin nylon splash jackets and trousers. That's when I found MBK --- who, at least at the time, also provided wetsuits as part of the deal! If you're ever in that part of the world ... Wish I were! Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>At 12:02 AM 10/15/99 +0000, David Martin wrote: >> > >>I would agree that MBK is a great place. They do not however, have any major >>requirements for renting of sit-on-top kayaks. They do have requirements for >>renting the old-fashioned enclosed cockpit type of kayaks. They obviously >>realize the old-fashioned kayaks are far less safe: more difficult to >>reenter from the water and susceptible to flooding. > >Old fashion kayaks? > Yea, I have a bias too ;-) Dave Martin (a.k.a. Dick) Noyo Pacific Outfitters < www.noyopacific.com > Canoe & Kayak Rentals & Sales Noyo Harbor Fort Bragg, CA (707) 961-0559 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Bliven wrote: > > at the kayak place (on Shims Creek?) just north of Charleston, SC... the > changing room is quite special. so is Charleston... do i like shrimp, > yes....especially with grits. > Coastal Expeditions, yes, at least the men's changing room. I keep forgetting to ask if the women's is as interesting....and I haven't had the courage (chutzpah? bad manners?) to go in and see for myself. BTW, it's Shem Creek, and you misspelled 'east'. :-) Pass me some of those shrimp, and some of that deep fried grits. Or the cream grits, just ignore that whistle in my chest as my arteries occlude. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Steve Cramer wrote: > Larry Bliven wrote: > > at the kayak place (on Shims Creek?) just north of Charleston, SC... the > > changing room is quite special. > Coastal Expeditions, yes, at least the men's changing room. I keep > forgetting to ask if the women's is as interesting.... OK, it's not fair to tantalize those of us who'll probably never get there. Out with it! Description: ________ Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Elaine Harmon > On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Steve Cramer wrote: > > > Larry Bliven wrote: > > > at the kayak place (on Shims Creek?) just north of Charleston, SC... the > > > changing room is quite special. > > Coastal Expeditions, yes, at least the men's changing room. I keep > > forgetting to ask if the women's is as interesting.... > > OK, it's not fair to tantalize those of us who'll probably never get > there. Out with it! Description: ________ > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > ============= maybe Steve remembers details. i recall tile walls of tropical beaches, palm trees and sand. i wanted to stay... but decided to leave for some shrimp. the lady's shower? a bell will have to tell. all the employees that i met were southern bells. i could not dwell... oh well. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Larry Bliven wrote: > From: Elaine Harmon > > > OK, it's not fair to tantalize those of us who'll probably never get > > there. Out with it! Description: ________ > > > > maybe Steve remembers details. i recall tile walls of tropical beaches, palm > trees and sand. i wanted to stay... but decided to leave for some shrimp. > > the lady's shower? a bell will have to tell. > all the employees that i met were southern bells. > i could not dwell... oh well. > Larry leaves out the best part of the scenery ;) Oh, and I just checked, the ladies' is equally scenic, appropriately so. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Elaine Harmon wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Steve Cramer wrote: > > > Larry Bliven wrote: > > > at the kayak place (on Shims Creek?) just north of Charleston, SC... the > > > changing room is quite special. > > Coastal Expeditions, yes, at least the men's changing room. I keep > > forgetting to ask if the women's is as interesting.... > > OK, it's not fair to tantalize those of us who'll probably never get > there. Out with it! Description: ________ > Sorry, Elaine, some things are better left undescribed. Come north and paddle with us some time and we'll go there. Steve Cramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Second, never extra flotation even in kayaks with no bulkheads. Since > the boats being rented tend to be wider kayaks, the boats will probably > sink out of sight in a capsize that kept getting water in to the cockpit > in attempts to re-enter. A friend of mine, a novice in all respects, rented a boat with blown out bulkheads! As it turned out, he did capsize (<-in flatwater - we had gone over self and assisted rescues before getting 50 feet from the ramp) and we quickly got him back in the boat. After we pumped it out, he kept telling me it felt unstable. I thought it was just him (and having just capsized I thought he seemed pretty unstable to start with) but once we landed I found the back hatch 1/4 full of water. I don't think I could ever recommend a rental shop to a novice. Even as a fairly experienced beginner myself I would never have thought to inspect the bulkhead seals. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:36am Oct 14, 1999, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > A few years ago, our local (College Park, MD) REI rented out some > kayaks which wound up on a Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) > beginnners' trip ... > we discovered that REI had sent the boats out > without any paddlefloats ... > A letter to REI College Park objecting to this > business practice brought an immediate written response which > acknowledged our concern and agreed with our conclusions --- and which > also promised an immediate change in the store's rental procedures. ... > Sometimes things happen in advertising visual layouts which > unintentionally challenge clear safety parameters --- nice catch, Deb > --- but I'm optimistic that REI will try to make it right and correct > their ad procedures in the future as a result of this problem. I'm less optimistic. Maybe it takes dead trees to get their attention? Earlier, REI had a sale flyer pitching a new consumer GPS unit that you can download custom maps to. The marketing hype read something like "never use a paper map again". I sent a comment through their Web site, reminding them that a GPS is not a replacement for good map and compass skills, and that relying completely on a GPS can be rather dangerous. I never heard a response, even though I gave them my membership number, but subsequent catalogs and flyers have not had such foolish language. I expect I wasn't the only one complaining, and it seems they got the message. I see more things wrong with this than what Debbie mentioned. 1) Neither kayaker in the photo has anything on their decks; no hints of hydration systems, bilge pumps, paddle floats, deck mounted compasses (all of which REI sells)... 2) Neither one appears to be wearing a PFD. 3) On this page, they choose to sell a 100% cotton T-shirt (to North Americans, in October?) and a padded cell phone case, instead of items most of us would consider more important (see comments 1 and 2). To their credit, REI does offer a deck bag which is illustrated with a chart in the see-through map pocket, pitches a helmet (a subtle hint that the Swifty is a river boat?), and features a weather radio. Jack writes about REI's "ad procedures". I'd love to know what those are, if there are any such procedures. Years ago, REI's catalogs were filled with data-filled comparison charts -- how much wind does it take to collapse this tent? how fast can this stove boil a liter of water? -- etc. You can still get such information in the retail stores, and the staff at retail stores (including College Park!) are generally well-informed and helpful. REI stores also frequently offer educational programs that are very good. There seems to be a growing disconnect between the way the stores do business and the way the catalog tries to sell product. That's why I'm less optimistic; over the years REI has continued to sell good stuff, but the sales approach has become more slick and less substantive. Some of it, too, is peculiar to the paddling "industry". When i sold bicycles years back, a consensus developed that beginners tended to emulate what they saw in advertising, so many companies and publications established some basic ground rules for advertising cycling. Rule Number One was always have the models wear helmets. Other unwritten rules included not portraying mountain bikes caked in mud (==having just caused serious soil erosion). Without any words, the cycling ads began to visually reinforce "best practice" principles. REI brings a lot of new folks into this sport; I think it should be more careful how it tries to sell the idea of paddling. -Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:36 AM 10/14/99 EDT, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: >A few years ago, our local (College Park, MD) REI rented out some kayaks which wound up on a Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) beginnners' trip; when working basic safety issues at the start of the trip with the newbies, we discovered that REI had sent the boats out without any paddlefloats, and we had to demo and instruct self rescues with spare equipment. A letter to REI College Park objecting to this business practice brought an immediate written response which acknowledged our concern and agreed with our conclusions --- and which also promised an immediate change in the store's rental procedures. > <snip> I'll go you one better. I bought my recreational boat from a local outdoor store. The store mainly caters to hunters and fishermen. They also have a side line of canoes and kayaks, but they're mainly going after the whitewater crowd. They not only didn't have a paddle float in stock. They didn't know what one was. I ended up ordering one from L.L. Bean. Luke -------------------------------------------------------- Luke Hoffman lhoffman_at_colsa.com COLSA Corporation In the great human comedy, one day we're spectators, the next day we're performers. Garrison Keillor *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Luke Hoffman wrote: > > I'll go you one better. I bought my recreational boat from a local outdoor > store. The store mainly caters to hunters and fishermen. They also have a > side line of canoes and kayaks, but they're mainly going after the > whitewater crowd. They not only didn't have a paddle float in stock. They > didn't know what one was. > It's the hook and bullet stores and the Sports Conformities that I worry about, also. I had a WW kayak for sale at the reasonable price of $350. I got a call from a guy who said he was interested, then asked me why he should pay me $350 when for $395 he could buy a new kayak at BassPlasterers. I tried to explain to him that he could not in fact buy a WW boat at BP, at any price. He didn't know what boat they had offered him, just a kayak for $395. I don't know what he ended up with, but I hope he didn't take it onto any real WW. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>SNIP< > I had a WW kayak for sale at the reasonable price of $350. > I got a call from a guy who said he was interested, then asked me why he > should pay me $350 when for $395 he could buy a new kayak at > BassPlasterers. I tried to explain to him that he could not in fact buy > a WW boat at BP, at any price. He didn't know what boat they had offered > him, just a kayak for $395. I don't know what he ended up with, but I > hope he didn't take it onto any real WW. > > If he didn't know the differance, what would it have mattered what he got? Maybe you should have offered a few pointers and lessons, or atleast where he could join in. Sadly some people are like the newly hatched chick. The first thing it sees is "mom", and the first kayak some people see is the kind they want. "you got'a look cool", even if it's wrong for you. I was one of the lucky ones, as my first kayak(that sank my heart) was on a remote lake in Alaska. A man and his son were fishing from it. We had flown in to check out some poaching at an arcaolagy sp? site and talked to them. I was completely blown away that they had this darn kayak back in there! It was a klepper double. If everyones first kayak was one of these, I bet there would be world peace! :-) Well, atleast less rudder wars. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James Lofton wrote: > > > I had a WW kayak for sale at the reasonable price of $350. > > I got a call from a guy who said he was interested, then asked me why he > > should pay me $350 when for $395 he could buy a new kayak at > > BassPlasterers. I tried to explain to him that he could not in fact buy > > a WW boat at BP, at any price. He didn't know what boat they had offered > > him, just a kayak for $395. I don't know what he ended up with, but I > > hope he didn't take it onto any real WW. > > If he didn't know the differance, what would it have mattered what he > got? If he wanted a boat to do WW in and he ended up in a Swifty, it would have mattered. > Maybe you should have offered a few pointers and lessons, or atleast > where he could join in. > Rest assured nobody buys a boat or takes a lesson from me without hearing a pitch for the cruising, instructional, and conservations programs of the Georgia Canoeing Association, which, despite its name, has a large number of kayaker members. In fact, he got that pitch even without buying the boat. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:04 PDT