In all the books and discussions I've read on kayakking, I never found any comments on the following way to launch a kayak in dumping surf, neither as a "do" or a "don't". Anyone got any comments? I think it must be possible to SWIM the kayak out through the surf. You can dive under the waves yourself, preventing a bodysurf to shore. The boat, pulled behind on a towing line, will have to go over or through the waves, but it can not start surfing: It would have to drag your whole weight through the water to do that. Once outside the surf zone, you can perform any kind of rescue to get in the boat. If you cover the cockpit before you start, you don't even have to pump it empty. Anyone tried this? Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels wrote" > <<In all the books and discussions I've read on kayakking, I never found > any comments on the following way to launch a kayak in dumping surf, > neither as a "do" or a "don't". Anyone got any comments? > > I think it must be possible to SWIM the kayak out through the surf. You > can dive under the waves yourself, preventing a bodysurf to shore. .....>> > > Now I have never tried this nor do I think I would try this. Let's do a > little risk assessment. First, you are tying yourself via a tow line to an > approximately 70 lbs, 16 foot by 23/24inch floating object. This is going > to act as an anchor as you swim through the surf. Are you strong enough to > maintain forward momentum to pull the kayak? > > Second, we all know kayaks never want to go where we want to go in > difficult conditions. The kayak going through the surf is going to go where > it wants. It may capsize, is may turn sideways - increasing the area for > the surf to hit it, it may get filled with water at 8lbs per gallon. > > Finally, you would be putting yourself into an entanglement risk. The kayak > gets trashed by the surf, you get trashed, one moves at a different speed > and direction. Next think, wammo, the tow line is around your body, neck, > etc and you are in deep, deep, trouble. > > Finally, if you/one cannot paddle through the breakers, it is reasonable > that you can swim through with an anchor attached? Think not. Better to > wait on shore and drink some wine and comtemplate the dumping surf. > > Sorry if this sounds harsh, > > paddle hard, paddle safe, smile > sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Seems to me that if you are pulling the boat it will allign the bow against the waves and then it will not go everywhere in any direction. Seems to me that it would follow the swimmer and float. There are always relatives, and it depends on how big a dumping wave and how much dumping is the wave, but seems to me that something that is hard to paddle out might be possible to swim out. You donīt want to tie the rope as if you were Houdini. Just hold it and let it go in case of getting in trouble. I guess the idea is worth a try. Rafael At 01:09 p.m. 03/04/03 -0500, SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: >Niels wrote" > > > I think it must be possible to SWIM the kayak out through the surf. You > > can dive under the waves yourself, preventing a bodysurf to shore. .....>> > > > > Now I have never tried this nor do I think I would try this. Let's do a > > little risk assessment. First, you are tying yourself via a tow line to an > > approximately 70 lbs, 16 foot by 23/24inch floating object. This is going > > to act as an anchor as you swim through the surf. Are you strong enough to > > maintain forward momentum to pull the kayak? > > > > Second, we all know kayaks never want to go where we want to go in > > difficult conditions. The kayak going through the surf is going to go > where > > it wants. It may capsize, is may turn sideways - increasing the area for > > the surf to hit it, it may get filled with water at 8lbs per gallon. > > > > Finally, you would be putting yourself into an entanglement risk. The > kayak > > gets trashed by the surf, you get trashed, one moves at a different speed > > and direction. Next think, wammo, the tow line is around your body, neck, > > etc and you are in deep, deep, trouble. > > > > Finally, if you/one cannot paddle through the breakers, it is reasonable > > that you can swim through with an anchor attached? Think not. Better to > > wait on shore and drink some wine and comtemplate the dumping surf. > > > > Sorry if this sounds harsh, > > > > paddle hard, paddle safe, smile > > sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
SNStone_at_aol.com wrote: > [About swimming a kayak out through surf] > > > > > Now I have never tried this nor do I think I would try this. Let's > > do a little risk assessment. First, you are tying yourself via a tow > > line to an approximately 70 lbs, 16 foot by 23/24inch floating > > object. I'm not planning to ty myself to it. I'm planning to keep the rope in one hand. > > This is going to act as an anchor as you swim through the > > surf. Are you strong enough to maintain forward momentum to pull the > > kayak? I don't know, that's why I ask. > > > > Second, we all know kayaks never want to go where we want to go in > > difficult conditions. The kayak going through the surf is going to > > go where it wants. It may capsize, is may turn sideways - increasing > > the area for the surf to hit it, it may get filled with water at > > 8lbs per gallon. It will definitely capsise, even roll. It will not turn sideways, since the "anchor" is dragging from the front. > > Finally, you would be putting yourself into an entanglement risk. > > The kayak gets trashed by the surf, you get trashed, one moves at a > > different speed and direction. Next think, wammo, the tow line is > > around your body, neck, etc and you are in deep, deep, trouble. The kayak will be pushed in the direction of the beach much faster then the swimmer, so the rope will be tight all the time. In surf smaller then, say, 4 feet, you will not get "thrashed" anyway, you can more or less walk through, while 4 feet can be quite a surf to handle in a kayak. > > Finally, if you/one cannot paddle through the breakers, it is > > reasonable that you can swim through with an anchor attached? Think > > not. Better to wait on shore and drink some wine and comtemplate the > > dumping surf. I'll explain why I ask the question. I'm preparing myself and my equipment for another 3 week vacation on the shores of Corsica, in the Mediterranian. I'm planning some overnight trips, camping on small, steep beaches or rocks, far from civilisation, and more important, fresh water. Naturally I will carry extra food and water for, say, 2 days, but waiting out a Mistral for the usual 5 days may not be an option. On the open water we're talking a fresh breeze and some cute waves to play with, while on a rocky beach you may find a murderous surfzone of about 10 meters wide. Part of my preparation is rereading "Deep Trouble", that's why I come up with this kind of scenario. > > > > Sorry if this sounds harsh, > > As long as I have the last word. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After reading the various theories of what might happen I would suggest you ask a surfer what happens when a wave catches a loose but tethered to the ankle surfboard and multiply it by ?? factor. I have no idea what that may be like but a very light board in the conditions you're looking at may give you an idea if it's feasible at all. I avoid this kind of surf in lieu of fun on the beach, but I can't help but think I'd rather roll and take it up side down as in smaller surf. Then again I'm a weenie and will watch you stouthearts have at it, unless my survival depends on it. Can't afford to lose a boat in practice either. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Many years ago I played in the surf on a fiberglass SOT kayak before knowing that kayaks came from the Northern cold countries, that sea kayaking was a world sport and that there was so much theory and academy and practice and courses and videos and clubs and you name it. I was afraid of staying outside the breakers or in between without being able to swim back out. So I decided to tie a string from my kayak to my belt, to my leg and sometimes around my waist. I also didnīt know that there were dumping waves and smooth waves: Guess where I was.. right.. I was in one of the worst dumping waves place that I know, close to Ixtapa Zihuatanejo in the Pacific Ocean. The result was that I succeded in coming out to the beach pulled by my kayak which was carried with tremendous force tby the white soup. The second result was that, one time, the string wrapped around my leg and I had a lot of pain since the string was burning my skin and a big bruise stayed around for few days. I was happy it was not my neck. Immediately after that I decided to look into the just starting technology of internet to see if there was something there about kayaking in the sea. I was astonished by this overwhelming amount of knowledge and information and the many years of this sport. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that all this happened when I was coming back, not paddling out. The kayak lost direction and was tumbled and hit by waves in all directions and the pulling force was astonishing. Now, swimming out, with the bow aligned to the waves, with a constant direction of pull by the swimmer, seems to me that it should work. Somewhere I read something like that in a trip report, of somebody afraid of capsizing with his loaded boat, preferred swimming out and entering afterwards. Iīll try to look for the reference. Best Regards Rafael www.mayanseas.com http://community.webshots.com/user/cayucochief *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<Sid> > > Second, we all know kayaks never want to go where we want to go in > > > difficult conditions. The kayak going through the surf is going to > > > go where it wants. It may capsize, is may turn sideways - increasing > > > the area for the surf to hit it, it may get filled with water at > > > 8lbs per gallon. > <Niels> It will definitely capsise, even roll. It will not turn sideways, since > the "anchor" is dragging from the front. ----------I don't think you can count on this. The wave action will not affect the swimmer and the kayak with the same forces and direction simultaneously. Not only will swimmer and kayak be separated by the tow line (hence different forces at a given time), but the swimmer will also be subjected to currents below the surface, while the kayak will not. <Niels> The kayak will be pushed in the direction of the beach much faster then > the swimmer, so the rope will be tight all the time. In surf smaller > then, say, 4 feet, you will not get "thrashed" anyway, you can more or > less walk through, while 4 feet can be quite a surf to handle in a > kayak. ---------As above: the kayak will be pushed in the direction of the beach more forcefully SOME of the time, but not consistenly. Consequently, there will be slack in the line at times. It's hard to imagine being able to hold onto the line when it becomes taut as your (possibly) breeched boat is hit by a dumper. > <Niels> I'll explain why I ask the question. I'm preparing myself and my > equipment for another 3 week vacation on the shores of Corsica, in the > Mediterranian. I'm planning some overnight trips, camping on small, > steep beaches or rocks, far from civilisation, and more important, fresh > water. Naturally I will carry extra food and water for, say, 2 days, but > waiting out a Mistral for the usual 5 days may not be an option. On the > open water we're talking a fresh breeze and some cute waves to play > with, while on a rocky beach you may find a murderous surfzone of about > 10 meters wide. ------ Use your charts, find beaches that are most likely to have relatively milder surf zones, plan well (so that you can reach those beaches) and carry more water. Have a wonderful trip and please post a trip report. ------Returning to a previous point: it should be relatively easy to "punch through" 4-foot surf if you have a strong forward stroke, a good brace, and some flexibility at the waist. In essence, get some forward speed as you and the wave approach one another. As you meet the wave, duck forward and tuck the paddle to one side next to the deck, in line with the boat (so that the wave doesn't catch it). Be ready to brace and paddle like heck when you come out the other side. And please wear a helmet. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While discussing kayaking in the surf zone, Bob Volin wrote: >And please wear a helmet. I've often wondered about this. Clearly, if the surf zone is rocky, a helmet will help prevent, or at least lessen, injury. But if the surf zone is entirely sand covered (as it is along much of the eastern U.S. coast and Florida), wouldn't a helmet be a potential liability? I would imagine that the helmet would result in much more 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk of neck injury. What are other's thoughts and practices? Brian C. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/3/2003 8:10:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, bc_at_asdi.com writes: > ... Clearly, if the surf zone is rocky, a helmet will help prevent, or at > least lessen, injury. But if the surf zone is entirely sand covered (as it > is along much of the eastern U.S. coast and Florida), wouldn't a helmet be > a potential liability? I would imagine that the helmet would result in > much more 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk > of neck injury. What are other's thoughts and practices? ... Not having made a scientific study of the respective coefficients of friction of typical helmets and potential surf-crash-dummy heads I speculate: Between my beard, baby bottom soft facial skin, cauliflower ears and a somewhat prominent nose, I expect that my head would produce more friction than most models of helmet with which I'm familiar. In any case, I'd rather accept the friction between that sandy beach and a helmet than have the experience of more intimate contact of this sort directly with my head. I'm sure that certain left coast paddlers will be able to add far less frivolous comments ... ;-) Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Folding Boat Center P.O. Box 700 Enfield NH 03748 info_at_FoldingBoatCenter.com www.FoldingBoatCenter.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 -- Ralph phone: +1-603-632-9500 -- Alv (yup, they rhyme) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Curtiss" <bc_at_asdi.com> > While discussing kayaking in the surf zone, Bob Volin wrote: > >And please wear a helmet. > > I've often wondered about this. Clearly, if the surf zone is rocky, > a helmet will help prevent, or at least lessen, injury. But if the > surf zone is entirely sand covered (as it is along much of the > eastern U.S. coast and Florida), wouldn't a helmet be a potential > liability? I would imagine that the helmet would result in much more > 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk of > neck injury. Brian, I disagree with you--from experience, I can tell you that sand can hurt. The reason I know is that although I know I should always wear a helmet in the surf, I usually only wear it when it looks particularly nasty or we are going to be playing in it for a while. Steve Holtzman Southern, CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I've often wondered about this. Clearly, if the surf zone is rocky, > a helmet will help prevent, or at least lessen, injury. But if the > surf zone is entirely sand covered (as it is along much of the > eastern U.S. coast and Florida), wouldn't a helmet be a potential > liability? I would imagine that the helmet would result in much more > 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk of > neck injury. What are other's thoughts and practices? More friction with a sandy bottom? Sorry, but I don't see that at all. A helmet is a good idea in the surf not only to protect you from rocks on the bottom, but also to protect you from other kayakers, surf boards, and your own boat and paddle if you should end up in the water. Of course a PFD is also a good idea not just for the floatation, but also as a chest and rib protector from the above mentioned dangers. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Quoting KiAyker_at_aol.com: > More friction with a sandy bottom? Sorry, but I don't see that at all. A > helmet is a good idea in the surf not only to protect you from rocks on the > bottom, but also to protect you from other kayakers, surf boards, and your > own boat and paddle if you should end up in the water. Of course a PFD is > also a good idea not just for the floatation, but also as a chest and rib > protector from the above mentioned dangers. > > Scott > So.Cal. Good point Scott Rafael ------------------------------------------------------------ Este correo fue enviado utilizando el servicio IMP para CIATEQ http://www.horde.org/imp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<extraneous text removed by moderator> For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to strap it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! on 4/5/03 9:06 PM, sildriel_at_ciateq.net.mx at sildriel_at_ciateq.net.mx wrote: > Quoting KiAyker_at_aol.com: > >> More friction with a sandy bottom? Sorry, but I don't see that at all. A >> helmet is a good idea in the surf not only to protect you from rocks on the >> bottom, but also to protect you from other kayakers, surf boards, and your >> own boat and paddle if you should end up in the water. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The head is an excellent place to store a helmet Steve Brown -----Original Message----- From: Dee Lutz For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to strap it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Brown wrote: > The head is an excellent place to store a helmet > >> For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the >> helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to strap >> it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! You kayak has a head? Cool. All mine has is a pee bottle. (I'm awfully giddy this morning, sorry) -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All joking aside (please!), I am still looking for an answer to my original post. If you are doing distance paddling and want to have a helmet on hand for surf landings, has anybody found a better solution than strapping the helmet to your deck. >> The head is an excellent place to store a helmet >> >>> For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the >>> helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to strap >>> it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! > > You kayak has a head? Cool. All mine has is a pee bottle. > > (I'm awfully giddy this morning, sorry) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>> For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the >>> helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to strap >>> it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! It ain't pretty but I keep it between my legs if I might need it on/off. I keep it in front of my feet if i don't need it much. > > You kayak has a head? Cool. All mine has is a pee bottle. My wife uses her helmet for a head/ pee bottle. Combined with her fenis and a front relief zip she just wizzes in her helmet and dumps it overboard. and rinces between uses! =:-o) steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45š 36.285' 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122š 39.841' Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think we're all waiting for the good idea too! Having paddled mostly along the California coast, and having played in the sea caves and rock gardens, I find carrying a helmet in between needing it to be a drag (sometimes literally!) I have found that my composite helmet, without much ear coverage, sits flat on the deck and tends to stay in place much better than the plastic full ear model (the difference being the full ear part, not the material, off course). And the green glitter fade on the composite helmet makes me hard to miss! Geoff Jennings 619-336-2444 800-322-SEDA geoff_at_sedakayak.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was serious. I never take mine off. My helmet has a visor to shade my face, so switching to a hat doesn't really offer any advantage. In fact, the helmet visor is better in the wind because it doesn't blow around. It's just not worth the hassle factor to try and stow the helmet. NRS sells Velcro attach visors for those helmets that do not have them. A helmet doesn't always look as cool, but if anyone makes fun of you, just whack them in the head with your paddle as hard as you can. They'll stop after that :-) Steve Brown -----Original Message----- All joking aside (please!), I am still looking for an answer to my original post. If you are doing distance paddling and want to have a helmet on hand for surf landings, has anybody found a better solution than strapping the helmet to your deck. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I second Steve's observation that sand can hurt. I'd much rather have my helmet scraping against sand than have sand enlarging my bald spot. Besides, even if nature intends a beach to be completely sandy, you never know what man-made object, such as a glass bottle, might fall off a boat or get washed into the surf from the beach. And helmets make you look cool. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/3/2003 11:15:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, hmgwarner_at_shaw.ca writes: > ... I'm typing this with my nose from the county mental health hospital > where a very stern looking nurse has just given me a blue pill. ... Stern? Did he respond to your covert winking at all? Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Folding Boat Center P.O. Box 700 Enfield NH 03748 info_at_FoldingBoatCenter.com www.FoldingBoatCenter.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 -- Ralph phone: +1-603-632-9500 -- Alv (yup, they rhyme) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/extraneous text from previous posts, etc.) have been removed.] Wet sand is not all that soft. The compression area on the skull may be wider than pavement but it is far less than a helmet covered head which spreads the compression over a much greater area. Neck injuries are the same. Head hits (no matter what the area of compression) then the neck/back absorbs shock. I know of no studies regarding the resistance of hair or bald skull compaired to smooth helmets when dragged under water over sand (volunteers are hard to find), but I suspect helmets slide at least as easily over any surface. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Volin" <bobvolin_at_optonline.net> > I second Steve's observation that sand can hurt. I'd much rather have my > helmet scraping against sand than have sand enlarging my bald spot. > Besides, even if nature intends a beach to be completely sandy, you never > know what man-made object, such as a glass bottle, might fall off a boat or > get washed into the surf from the beach. > > And helmets make you look cool. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian Curtiss <bc_at_asdi.com> wrote: >> I would imagine that the helmet would result in much more 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk of neck injury. What are other's thoughts and practices? >> Am I the only clumsy one? So far, I think Steve H from SoCal may be the only responder who admits to having clonked his head on a sandy bottom. I did it once, forward flipping to get out of a dumping wave I had caught, body surfing. Scraped up my forehead pretty good -- and that was fine SoCal sand, not the larger-grained, grittier stuff up here in Oregon. Never wore a helmet body surfing, but that once, it would have helped. I kinda wonder how I avoided whacking my head more often, but if I recall (this happened 40 years ago!!), the wave broke onto a mid-surf-zone sand bar, so the shoaling reduced the depth so fast my normal exit forward roll stuffed my noggin into the sand. I must have done that forward roll to exit waves thousands of times without incident. As an aside, that forward roll was a hell of a lot of fun in a meaty shorebreak. If you timed it just right, you'd end upstanding on your feet/flippers, and the wave would crash around you onto the sand, ebb back, and you could walk/waddle out of the swash. If your timing was off, then you got thrashed, but that was part of the fun. I guess. Fun was different when I was 15, 16, 17. I don't kayak surf in anything over about 2 feet, but I wear a helmet anyway, because of all the stuff that could hit my head __besides__ the sandy bottom. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Brian Curtiss <bc_at_asdi.com> wrote: > > >>>I would imagine that the helmet would result in much more > 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much greater risk of > neck injury. What are other's thoughts and practices? >> > > Am I the only clumsy one? So far, I think Steve H from SoCal may be the > only responder who admits to having clonked his head on a sandy bottom. Well, no. I was surfing a WW boat at Folly Beach, SC a couple of years ago and flipped in the soup close to shore. My head was the meat in a boat-head-sand sandwich. The helmet slid along the bottom just fine, so the only long term effect was how long it took to get the sand out of my ears. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I did it once, forward flipping to get out of a dumping wave I had caught, > body surfing. Body surfing is whole different can of beans. I often did the face plant into the bottom in my hard core body surfing days. During the summer I walked around with a scab on my forehead as a testimony to scrapping the bottom. And your right, neither I or anyone I ever saw out in the water body surfing ever wore a pfd or a helmet. Yet somehow we all miraculously managed to survive. Imagine that? It should be noted that at the Wedge, a famous Southern California body surfing beach where the waves get "wedged" between the beach and the jetty, it was not unusual for some usually inexperienced body surfer to break their neck or their back from hitting the bottom in the large shore break and end up paralyzed. However, I don't think a helmet would have helped them. A bit more common sense and a better assessment of their abilities would have prevented the tough lesson. I think this applies to kayaking as well. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My practice and opinion: I never - ever go in the ocean at all without a helmet. I have hit my head on the bottom numerous times, and gradually learned to protect my neck from injury more or less with my elbows. "Sand" is a relative thing. All the beaches I paddle on have some rocks of various sizes visible at low tide. You could get unlucky. Also, I have hit my head on my own deck several times in the surf zone. The worst incident I have seen was when my wife crashed and burned in some plunging surf at Cabrillo beach. My recollection is that it wasn't too big, maybe three+ feet. She exited the boat safely on the seaward side, so Jack and I relaxed and went back to surfing. I moment later I turned to to see her boat get caught by a wave and hit her in the back of the head. It flattened her. For a moment, I thought I might have to learn how to date again, but she struggled back to her feet. She was shaken and stunned, but largely unharmed Apparently, the boat got sucked back out on the surge while she wasn't paying attention. She said she would never do that again. She hasn't, but if she were not wearing a helmet, I don't think she would be alive to do it again. Steve Brown > > I've often wondered about this. Clearly, if the > surf zone is rocky, > a helmet will help prevent, or at least lessen, > injury. But if the > surf zone is entirely sand covered (as it is along > much of the > eastern U.S. coast and Florida), wouldn't a helmet > be a potential > liability? I would imagine that the helmet would > result in much more > 'friction' with a sandy bottom resulting in a much > greater risk of > neck injury. What are other's thoughts and > practices? > > Brian C. ===== Thanks Steve Brown *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I always wear a helmet in surf and would feel naked without one. I think the additional chance of a severe neck fracture is negligible. Many or perhaps most neck injuries I think are compression injuries. The helmet's suspension may lesson these type of injuries somewhat. On the other hand, a simple concussion while in water may result in drowning! Staying conscious and alert is, I believe, where it's at. Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Somebody wrote: > > >>> For the folks who wear helmets in the surf zone: Where do you store the > >>> helmet while you're paddling and not surfing? Seems so cumbersome to > strap > >>> it on deck. Is there a better solution? Thanks! > I've told about my helmet before, but now I got some pictures of it online. Check out my foldable helmet: http://home.wanadoo.nl/niels.blaauw/technical/helmet/index.html It is not as good as a solid helmet, but it can protect me from quite some damage. I don't use it for a full day of whitewater kayakking or surf kayakking, but on sea trips that may or may not end up in a bit of surf, and I don't feel like dragging along that enourmous ball of hard plastic, this one is a great in-between. Feel free to copy it, if you can. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> All joking aside (please!), I am still looking for an answer to my original > post. If you are doing distance paddling and want to have a helmet on hand > for surf landings, has anybody found a better solution than strapping the > helmet to your deck. I've posted this before, but I tie a cord to my helmet and kick it to the front of the cockpit where I have a lot of room which is rarely utilized. The other end of the cord is knotted and tucked under my foam seat. This way I don't even know the helmet is there unless I need it. Then it is simply reeled in and untied and ready for use. This system has worked well for me for a number of years. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dee Lutz <egb_at_dur.mindspring.com> wrote: >All joking aside (please!),...has anybody found a better solution than strapping the helmet to your deck. Dee, what's wrong with the joking? Lighten up! Amidst the joking, good dicussion usually evolves. As I see it, you only have 4 options: 1. Strap the helmet to your deck. Most accessible. Some windage 2. Wear the helmet. May be hot, heavy, 100% accessible, no added windage. 3. Stow the helmet in your compartment. Barely accessible, may require partner's assistance. No windage. 4. Stow the helmet in your cockpit. Relatively accessible, may entail a foot entrapment risk. No windage. Or, have your partner carry it for you, but then they have the decision of 1-4, doubled! Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn Baker wrote: > Dee Lutz <egb_at_dur.mindspring.com> wrote: > >>All joking aside (please!),...has anybody found a better solution than > > strapping the helmet to your deck. > > Dee, what's wrong with the joking? Lighten up! Amidst the joking, good > dicussion usually evolves. As I see it, you only have 4 options: > > 1. Strap the helmet to your deck. Most accessible. Some windage Not only windage. I once tried to roll with a helmet on my deck and tore the strap off the shell scooping water. Now I stow it between my legs. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Steve Cramer" <cramersec_at_charter.net> > Not only windage. I once tried to roll with a helmet on my deck and tore the > strap off the shell scooping water. Now I stow it between my legs. I'd have bought a better helmet. There's no excuse for the straps coming out. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > From: "Steve Cramer" <cramersec_at_charter.net> > >>Not only windage. I once tried to roll with a helmet on my deck and tore the >>strap off the shell scooping water. Now I stow it between my legs. > > I'd have bought a better helmet. There's no excuse for the straps coming out. It was a Protec, a pretty standard helmet. The rivet pulled out through the plastic. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Volin" <bobvolin_at_optonline.net> > ------Returning to a previous point: it should be relatively easy to "punch > through" 4-foot surf if you have a strong forward stroke, a good brace, and > some flexibility at the waist. In essence, get some forward speed as you > and the wave approach one another. As you meet the wave, duck forward and > tuck the paddle to one side next to the deck, in line with the boat (so that > the wave doesn't catch it). Be ready to brace and paddle like heck when you > come out the other side. And please wear a helmet. Niels, Bob's advice is right on. You should also remember that surf launching involves more finesse than strength. First look for a rip--that's the water heading back out to sea. It will usually cut a deeper channel making the waves a little smaller--but more importantly, the rip will increase your speed out through the surf. Also, watch the waves for a pattern before you launch and try to launch right after the largest waves in the set have finished. Careful,--- they usually travel in pairs or three's. Then don't be afraid to stop your forward motion in the soup in order to prevent a wave from breaking on top of you---then paddle like hell, using Bob's techniques of punching through any other waves and you should be ok. Make sure you have practiced your braces so they are reflexive. I have had breaking waves slap me so hard in the chest that all forward motion is stopped. At that time, you will need to brace to prevent a capsize while being surfed backwards. But please don't try to swim the kayak out.Any kind of a tow line is a disaster waiting to happen. Steve Holtzman Southern, CA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels >>Sorry if this sounds harsh,<< >As long as I have the last word. Niels.< Niels, There's a great spot here on the west coast of Vancouver Island at Port Renfrew, right at the Gordon River. Huge North Pacific swell sloshes up the bay, dumping violently on Gordon's Beach by the First Nation's camp site. A steady winter deluge (106 inches annually) of rain ensures a fast runoff out the mouth of the river, only meters away from the prime dumping grounds. While one normally should avoid landing and launching in severe dumping surf, the proactive paddler may want to acquire the ability to handle this surf phenomenon, adding it to their skill set. I've been able to utilize this area over the decades to that end. I've lost acquaintances in runabouts on the bar there, so it can be very dangerous, but the properly attired, helmeted, PFD wearing kayaker should be able to weather the awesome power of an area like this, as long as they don't get in over their head too soon during the skill development phase - pun intended. Overhead dumping waves, tricky currents from river discharge and alongshore currents add to the quintessential west coast ultimatum that stares you down once you decide to get your feet wet. A stout kayak is highly recommended, as well as proper bulkhead placement to minimize cockpit volumes. The solo paddler must also consider the consequences of any mistakes. Typical winter scenarios are evidenced with total isolation and aloneness on many a damp day when I play out there, but the concentration afforded is invaluable for honing surf skills. I also know of one folding kayak paddler who swims his kayak in. Along our wet, west coast, there are a number of steep, small pebbled beaches that are often the only place to land for miles for a given section, and always seem to have mild to moderate dumping surf. As far as launching, I'll use the river current a Gordon's Beach to get me out, though the bar often makes for an even worse situation -- especially if you come out of your kayak (breaking swell vs. current). I have tried swimming back in through dumping surf at this spot a few times. The key ingredients are an appropriately short bow line, easily deployed but securable when not needed, as well as a diameter of cordage that will not cut through your hands. Finesse IS important, but strong, stable shoulders and elbows kept close are of prime importance. I can usually clear the first wave (surf zone is usually short in a dumping zone) coming in, then capsize at the last second and let the wave pass over top taking the kayak into shore. I then run up the shoreline with rope in hand, just as the kayak is sucked back out. I have been stalled on my exit when the force and commotion has pinned me against the back deck, such that a full exit wasn't possible. I have been forcefully pulverized at odd, twisted positions, and it really hurts -- pulling and straining back muscles. These days, if I'm in doubt I'll hug the front deck, crash, then bail out. All in all, a very risky procedure, but one I'm glad to have become somewhat familiar with in case I ever need to land large dumping surf. As with most dumping surf situations, seeing the foreshore beyond the dumpers, while out at sea, is entirely frustrating. I know the Gordon Beach fairly well. A remote, unknown shoreline, in dumping surf of sufficient magnitude to throw up a further smoke screen of fine mist...well, these days I prefer to just read about it. Now, how can I get my hands on Chris Duff's new book? Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 8/4/03 17:43, Doug Lloyd at dalloyd_at_telus.net wrote: > Now, how can I get > my hands on Chris Duff's new book?> And a damn fine read it is too! -- John Kirk-Anderson Banks Peninsula NEW ZEALAND *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For the last days I've been too busy to reply to any messages: My new boat has arrived! Sold as a "seakayak", it took me 3 days of hard labour to convert it to a seaworthy craft. The process involved drilling about 100 holes, scraping and sawing away 4 meters of coaming, adding 12 meters of line, 6 meters of shock cord and 2.5 meters of aluminium tube to reinforce the hull. That's just the big modifications: the small jobs include sealing hatches, adding a backrest, kneebraces and an electric pump. I've read and considered all the replies on launching in dumping surf, and I think I can reach a conclusion. It is something to avoid whenever possible. Even Doug Lloyd will not try it willingly. Swimming out may be possible, at least in surf less then 3 feet high, although you not only risk loosing your boat, but also your swimming trunks. When dumping surf prevents me from leaving some wilderness beach, I guess I will try the following survival techniques, in the stated order: - Read a book, avoid sunburn - Try to find some fresh water from a small stream - Shoot a seagull and eat it - Try to find any kind of non-salt water, however dirty it might be - Drink my own urine - Launch through dumping surf - Employ flares, EPIRB or cellphone to call outside help - Panic. Meanwhile, I can't resist the temptation to get the last word on some of Doug Lloyds comments: > [...] as long as they > don't get in over their head too soon during the skill development phase - > pun intended. In my local club I am considered to be a highly skilled expedition paddler. I will NOT elaborate on the number of seakayakkers in my club or the average skill level: It would disprove my point. Most kayakkers in my club are white water kayakkers, on a high skill level. I joined them a couple of times for a day of surf kayakking. I've seen and paddled some quite serious surf, but the shallow, sandy, Dutch beaches don't have dumping surf. During these club sessions I push my skill level and experiment, knowing help is close at hand. During my solo trips I try to stay well within my skill level, meaning I will avoid situations I'm not sure I can handle. I will NOT practice in dumping surf during my vacation: I will avoid it whenever possible. > [...] The key > ingredients are an appropriately short bow line, easily deployed but > securable when not needed, as well as a diameter of cordage that will not > cut through your hands. On my new boat, I've added a bow line of one meter (3 feet) that is kept in place by a bungy cord. The bow line ends in a toggle. When you grab the toggle, you can pull out the bowline. When you release the toggle, the line is pulled back by the bungy. This might come in handy in surf, but I mainly designed it to be able to drag my boat across sandbars, where the water is too shallow to paddle, yet too deep to employ my wheels. By the way: Doug wrote something about the need of a tough boat. Don't worry: I ALWAYS paddle plastic. Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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