Further to Ralph's comments - > The story-- > His ship, the Endurance, got caught by the ice > in the Wendell Sea a few hundred miles from the Antarctica coast with 28 > men and 70 dogs and one cat. Further reading - there's a book out recently about the captain of the Endurance, Captain Worsley, as far as I remember, a New Zealander. A second book just spotted in the bookshop "Mrs Chip's last expedition", this is the journal "by" the cat, which actually was male, and belonged to the carpenter, hence "Chips". Shakleton shot the cat sometime during the expedition (just before the boat voyage?) and the carpenter, one of those on the James Caird, never forgave him. Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Alex Ferguson wrote: > > Further to Ralph's comments - > > > The story-- > > His ship, the Endurance, got caught by the ice > > in the Wendell Sea a few hundred miles from the Antarctica coast with 28 > > men and 70 dogs and one cat. > > Further reading - there's a book out recently about the > captain of the Endurance, Captain Worsley, as far as I > remember, a New Zealander. A second book just spotted in > the bookshop "Mrs Chip's last expedition", this is the journal > "by" the cat, which actually was male, and belonged to the > carpenter, hence "Chips". Shakleton shot the cat sometime > during the expedition (just before the boat voyage?) and the > carpenter, one of those on the James Caird, never forgave > him. > > Alex > -- I believe that the Worsely book is a re-issue of his earlier book, Shackleton's Boat Voyage, as is a new print of Shackleton's own book, South. I just read the latter and will look for the former as it comes highly recommended. Caroline Alexander, the author of the new book that works into the exhibit a lot (The Endurance, Shackleton's Legendary Antarctic Expedition-published in 1998 and now in 1999 in cooperation with the Museum to get those striking foto reproductions), also wrote the Mrs. Chippie's Last Voyage book. The latter book was/is very popular in Britain and the "dominions." When Ms. Alexander, a striking redhead Englishwoman raised in Florida, went around Britain, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand (the crews were from these places) looking for never published papers and diaries and other personal things from the families of the crew, doors were opened to her when they suddenly realized "Oh, your the Chippie lady!!!" So her cat's story led to a terrific broader book. The opening foto in her new book is of Mrs. Chippie and of the fellow who stowed away on the voyage (Shackleton had decided he had enough crew and the guy snook on with help from some of his former shipmates). Mrs. Chippie was shot fairly early on and over the next or so the rest of the dogs too. The crew, to a man, all felt that was the worse thing for them in the entire saga. Several puppies were born on the voyage and had grew up with the crew for a full year and it was hard to destroy them. But it was a matter of survival; besides some of the younger dogs made good eating and their dog food pemmicans added to the crew's larder as well. At the lectures that I have attended and in articles about the Shackleton voyage lots of questions are raised about the level of leadership that it took to carry the saga off without a loss of life and caliber of the men (A connected voyage by another ship, the Aurora, to set up supply depots on the other end of the anticipated trek across the South Pole to the Ross Sea, had three fatalities and not as good a leadership or crew, although Shackleton praises them highly.) Some of our discussions on Paddlewise seem to dovetail nicely with the Shackleton experiences. We have discussed things like leadership and group dynamics, cold water survival and gear, eats, and even ballast. No Canadian ballast rocks however, but rather bags filled with pebbles and sand that were used in the James Caird to help her in that 850 mile voyage to South Georgia Island. Shackleton did a lot of things to make it all work: 1. he kept them all busy almost at all times but allowing rest periods and play. They often played football and had dogteam races etc. Application to paddling: If you make a game of some aspects of a group trip, it makes the trip smoother. 2. he gave them only so much information and withheld his own private misgivings but not being foolishly optimistic...a nice balance. Paddling Lesson: Sharing information is good to a point and getting inputs, but one person really has to take responsibility eventually. 3. he kept changing plans as situations changed rapidly rather than doggedly being stubborn and sticking to something. Paddling Lesson: know when to adjust plans as situations change...you don't have to make that ambitious crossing...there may be alternatives. 4. he made certain that the men always had things before the officers had them...something unusual in that day and age of rank has its privileges. They got the reindeer sleeping bags, the officers the wool ones. The crew took note of that. Paddling lesson? I don't know, I'm taking the best stuff. :-) 5. the work of swabbing decks and wardroom floors were shared by all. There is a famous Hurley foto of the wardroom floor being hand washed by some of the scientists as well as crew. Paddling lesson? probably none. 6. a handful of his group had plenty of previous polar experience either arctic or antarctic or both. He constantly drilled the crew in dog handling, evacuation drills, etc. At some point when he comments on the Aurora tragedy at the Ross Sea he notes sternly that the people did not read the lessons about the area that was in papers in plain sight at the hut, i.e. ignorance contributed to the tragedy there. Paddling lesson: really understand the area, study everything before hand, have some reliable experienced and dependable people around. 7. he had been with Scott on one of the latter's attempts at reaching the South Pole. Shackleton himself earlier had backed off at one point when he was just 100 to 200 miles from the pole when he realized that he could not make it there and return...better to try another day. Paddling lesson: there is a point when to turn around if weather gets bad or not to go paddling at all. 8. he kept check on troublemakers. Even if he didn't like a person, he never let them know it though, just soft-talked them. Alexander has diary entries and letters where a crewperson felt highly about Shackleton and thought he was held in high regard by Shackleton when it was clear he wasn't. When it came time to take five other people for the brutal attempt to cross 800 miles of ocean to reach South Georgia Island, Shackleton took two people he considered troublemakers with him rather than leave them behind where they might demoralize other survivors and cause disastrous dissention. One was the carpenter; the other I believe the bosun's mate who was a terrible bully. The 22 men who stayed behind had an equally rough go of it that would have been breeding ground for trouble if those two had stayed. Paddling Lesson: If you have to take someone with you while leaving a group behind, take John Winters and Tim Ingrham. :-) The points go on. I suggest reading Shackleton's own book as starters and Alexander's book as well. Hell read 'em all even Mrs. Chippie's version. :-) Sorry, this is so long. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Don't forget the classic of the genre, Alfred Lansing's "Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage". You might also want to read Roland Huntford's "Shackelton". Huntford was the author of "Amundsen and Scott", which thoroughly discredited Scott (while elevating Amundsen). I am puzzled by the view--held by many Brits--that Shackelton was not the equal of Scott. It seems to me that Shackelton was in a completely different league. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The definitive titles (been to the bookshop at lunchtime to buy some stamps) - Shackleton's Captain A biography of Frank Worsley by John Thomson publisher Hazard Press ISBN 1-877161-40-3 Mrs Chippy's Last Expedition 1914-1915 The remarkable journal of Shackleton's polar-bound cat by Caroline Alexander publisher Bloomsbury http://www.bloomsbury.com ISBN 0-7475-3819-0 Note that Hazard Press is a New Zealand publisher. Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
For those of you who think that not tying the bow or stern of you kayak to your bumper is a SIN be fore warned that I am driving up I-95 from Fla. to the Charleston Symposium with just straps across my racks. I drive a white van w/ Fla. plates and a Arctic Hawk in the rack. DO NOT FOLLOW BEHIND ME!! if you are concerned. I take full responsibility for my actions. If you read this and end up with my kayak in your face you have been warned. I will leave at 6AM est. north on I95 to Hwy 17 to Charleston SC. You have been warned Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
hi/bye Dana, >I will leave at 6AM est. north on I95 to Hwy 17 to Charleston SC. Enjoy Charleston. kathy ad i wish that we could be there, it's one of our favorite towns. are you awake at 6AM? bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/16/99 5:34:42 AM, foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net writes: << are you awake at 6AM? >> This is Florida. You don't have to be awake to drive here..... Scott Looking for yak pieces on I-95 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/15/99 8:24:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net writes: << You have been warned >> This must it an East Coast thing? It takes less time to tie it down then to write the E-mail >::< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
|For those of you who think that not tying the bow or stern of you kayak to |your bumper is a SIN be fore warned that I am driving up I-95 from Fla. to |the Charleston Symposium with just straps across my racks. I drive a white |van w/ Fla. plates and a Arctic Hawk in the rack. DO NOT FOLLOW BEHIND ME!! |if you are concerned. I take full responsibility for my actions. If you |read this and end up with my kayak in your face you have been warned. |I will leave at 6AM est. north on I95 to Hwy 17 to Charleston SC. |You have been warned Sigh, this equine has been beaten into a MessyMoldyMorrass. I stayed out of this before but...... Asked yourself the following questions. No reply is needed. Have you ever been "questioned" by a hostile lawyer in court? If so, did you find the event pleasurable? The chances of having a boat fly off a vehicle are slim. It happens but slim. The chances of said flying boat hitting someone/thing are even slimmer. The chances of injury or death are even closer to zero. However, I can cite at least two accidents in the last six to nine months where three people have been killed by stuff falling off of vehicles. IF a boat flies off of your vehicle have YOU done all that you could do to prevent the accident. Would a REASONABLE person, i.e., a JURY, believe YOU made a REASONABLE effort to prevent the accident? Uppercase is not yelling but for emphasis. "Mr. Decker, when you were throwing you heavy, 18 foot long boat up on your van did you ever think that the boat could fly off and kill my client's daughter?" asked the family's attorney. If you say no, and he has found an archive of this list. He has you by the proverbial jewels. If you tell the truth and say "Yes..." "So, sir, you thought that the your 18 foot long boat could possibly fly off your vehicle. We won't argue that you exceeded the speed limit with your overburden vehicle, so how did you try to secure your boat to your large van?", asked the lawyer who has all the advantages. You answer that you had the boat strapped down..... YadaYadaYada The lawyer then asks, "Is this ALL that you could have done to prevent that heavy, 18 foot boat from flying off of your van and into my clients family car where it killed their little 4 year old daughter?" If you say yes, the lawyer has you. If you say no the lawyer has you. "Why did you not simply tie down the bow and stern of your heavy boat? It would have taken you, what, Oh, 2 minutes? 5 minutes? Maybe 15 minutes? You were in such a hurry to go out a play with your toys that you could not find a few minutes to make the simple precaution to tie down your 18 foot long boat. A boat that YOU KNEW would be travelling down the PUBLIC HIGHWAYS at 60 or 70 miles per hour! You further knew YOU had NOT done all YOU could to prevent YOUR boat from flying off YOUR vehicle. Because YOU had not simply tied down your boat my clients swee,t innocent little child is in a box. Why, because you did not take a few minutes to tie down your boat. Why, Mr. Decker did you not fully secure your boat to your van? Why?" The jury is sure gonna think that tying down the bow and stern is a reasonable thing to do. Again, the odds of any of this happening are very close to zero. But is the few minutes it takes to make reasonable precautions, precautions that really drive the odds even closer to zero that much of a trial? I used to carry my canoe on top of my truck using foam blocks and straps running into the cab. Not the best system but it worked. I also, as now, attach bow and stern lines. It takes far more time to run the straps than the bow and stern lines. I had to do an emergency stop from 65 mph. The stern lines kept the canoe on the truck. Period. The foam blocks certainly provided more friction than how I would carry the canoe with the current roof rack. My kayaks, riding in saddles are always secured with bow and stern lines. A decent lawyer is going to ask how much your boat weighs, how long it is, its shape, and what is it made out of. They will then use this to drive up the imagery to your disadvantage. I did not take the time to write this to start up a new thread. The equine is splattered all over the place. If your boat did happen to fly off and injure someone, or &diety help us, kill someone, you will be in Criminal and Civil court. It won't be fun. In the time it has taken me to write this note I could have attached my bow and stern lines on my two kayaks 10 or more times. The odds might be in your favour but the penalty for losing is severe. Later.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan wrote: >Sigh, this equine has been beaten into a >MessyMoldyMorrass. I stayed out of this >before but...... (giant snip) Uh, guys, I think Dana was just pulling your leg with his warning of lack of bow & stern lines. (I was laughing very hard when I read it, anyway.) I wouldn't give it so much thought. Frank P.S. FWIW, I was fortunate enough to paddle with Dana when I lived in Fla. and I can assure you he is a safe and responsible paddler (whether the boat is on the car or in the water). And obviously, he is no fun to paddle with! :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:42 PM 4/16/99 -0700, Frank Lucian wrote: >Dan wrote: >>Sigh, this equine has been beaten into a >>MessyMoldyMorrass. I stayed out of this >>before but...... >(giant snip) > >Uh, guys, I think Dana was just pulling your leg with his warning of >lack of bow & stern lines. (I was laughing very hard when I read it, >anyway.) I wouldn't give it so much thought. > >Frank > >P.S. FWIW, I was fortunate enough to paddle with Dana when I lived in >Fla. and I can assure you he is a safe and responsible paddler (whether >the boat is on the car or in the water). And obviously, he is no fun to >paddle with! :-) > Just got back from the Charleston symposium today. Sorry about the warning message but I did not want you to lack of anything to talk about while I was gone. Also I wanted to see how many people still saw only in black and white when there are beautiful colors out there. Second I am a boy the last time I looked anyhow. The internet goes world wide and don't post information about me one it. To private I guess. Third, two interesting things happened at Charleston this weekend, I was selling a cd of clip art among other things and sells were slow, the weather was bad when little ole Derek H. stopped by for a chat. He was holding my cd in his hand talking about it and five people rushed up and bought one without even asking the price or what it was. Talking about sell ability (Derek has it) one person waited till he put it down and grabbed the one he was holding. When he reached for it again it wasn't there and he started looking around for it I handed him another cause he looked bewildered because he couldn't find it. Next weird thing is I met a guy from Corpus Christi that had been paddling around Cumberland Island Ga. and after he had rounded the northern end and was in the ocean paddling against a good 20mph head wind he heard a rushing wake and looked around and could not see any thing next thing he new his kayak was knocked thirty degrees off course so he paddled quickly to shore and found a sharks tooth sticking out of his kayak and other teeth marks and scratches. I took several pictures of his kayak and the tooth still sticking out of the hull. He talked to a marine biologist and he looked at the tooth and said it looked like mako shark. He was paddling a dagger meridian with a white hull and blue deck. So if you paddle one similar you are shark bait. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:08 PM 4/20/99 -0400, dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: >off course so he paddled quickly to shore and found a sharks tooth sticking >out of his kayak and other teeth marks and scratches. I took several >pictures of his kayak and the tooth still sticking out of the hull. Hey Dana, Any chance we can see the pictures??? Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
here are the pictures of the kayak the shark bit http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/tooth.htm Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Surprisingly little damage, considering the strength of a shark's jaws. My story is less impressive: in Baja in '86 the double my son and I were paddling got swacked across its nose with the tail of a large basking shark. We had no idea what it was, and hustled our butts to catch up with the guide! dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > here are the pictures of the kayak the shark bit > http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/tooth.htm -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the pictures, makes my scariest animal encounter in a kayak sound pretty tame. I had a large golden lab chasing me through some shallows one day, didn't know if he was attacking or had love in mind. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: <dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net> Cc: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] warning,Charleston,life,Derek,sharks and etc. > Surprisingly little damage, considering the strength of a shark's jaws. My > story is less impressive: in Baja in '86 the double my son and I were > paddling got swacked across its nose with the tail of a large basking > shark. We had no idea what it was, and hustled our butts to catch up with > the guide! > > dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > > here are the pictures of the kayak the shark bit > > http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/tooth.htm > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:15 AM 4/21/99 -0400, Del Belaire wrote: >Thanks for the pictures, makes my scariest animal encounter in a kayak sound >pretty tame. I had a large golden lab chasing me through some shallows one >day, didn't know if he was attacking or had love in mind. That could be scary nonetheless, I had a alligator follow me around in the Okeefenokee swamp when I use to canoe and blow bubbles thru its nose and bump the canoe. This went on all day , it wasn't a very big one only 5 or 6 ft but was aggravating. I was doing bird photography and every five or so minutes I would have to put the blade of the paddle between its eyes and push it away. Later the ranger told me that it was part of the mating ritual and I was lucky it wasn't bigger or hornier or my big yellow canoe would of been compromised. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I had a Canadian friend who had an interesting encounter while fishing with a hand line in Baja. He was jigging a small piece of fish on a lead head jig along the bottom and felt like he had snagged the bottom. He pulled hard and the line slowly started to come in like he had a big ball of weeds or a log on the line. As he got it up to the side of the kayak he said he saw the tips of some tenticules and he thought "how could I have snagged a starfish"? Then he saw tenticles on the otherside of the kayak as well and the line started to get pulled really hard! A good size octopus slide up on his deck and gave him the evil eye. The critter just gave him a mean look, spit the hook and slid back over the side. It was pretty funny hearing him holler-this is not the sort of thing that usually happens in Ontario. Del Belaire wrote: > Thanks for the pictures, makes my scariest animal encounter in a kayak sound > pretty tame. I had a large golden lab chasing me through some shallows one > day, didn't know if he was attacking or had love in mind. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > To: <dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net> > Cc: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 11:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] warning,Charleston,life,Derek,sharks and etc. > > > Surprisingly little damage, considering the strength of a shark's jaws. > My > > story is less impressive: in Baja in '86 the double my son and I were > > paddling got swacked across its nose with the tail of a large basking > > shark. We had no idea what it was, and hustled our butts to catch up with > > the guide! > > > > dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > > > > > here are the pictures of the kayak the shark bit > > > http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/tooth.htm > > > > -- > > Dave Kruger > > Astoria, OR > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > > > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>That could be scary nonetheless, I had a alligator follow me around in the >Okeefenokee swamp ......... > Later the ranger told me that it was part of the mating >ritual and I was lucky it wasn't bigger or hornier or my big yellow canoe >would of been compromised. Interesting. My paddling career started when I was a student at UF. My first boat was a yellow FG canoe of uncertain manufacture. It was called "Gator Grabber" because that's what it was used for ( Zoology Major). We'd go out at night, grab, measure, and release them. 5 ft. was about as big as we were willing to grab. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My scariest animal encounter was in a canoe... a worried cow moose mistook me for her missing calf as I was launching the boat. She swam out and followed half way across the lake, crying and grunting the whole time, before giving up and going back to shore. My son and I paddled like crazy to stay ahead of her! Funny thing is, that's not the only time a cow moose has mistaken me for a calf!! =8-0 Karen ;-) dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > At 08:15 AM 4/21/99 -0400, Del Belaire wrote: > >Thanks for the pictures, makes my scariest animal encounter in a kayak sound > >pretty tame. I had a large golden lab chasing me through some shallows one > >day, didn't know if he was attacking or had love in mind. > > That could be scary nonetheless, I had a alligator follow me around in the > Okeefenokee swamp when I use to canoe and blow bubbles thru its nose and > bump the canoe. This went on all day , it wasn't a very big one only 5 or 6 > ft but was aggravating. -- Karen Hancock San Clemente, CA magpi_at_access1.net 949/487-2602 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:09 AM 4/21/99 -0700, Karen H. wrote: >My scariest animal encounter was in a canoe... a worried cow moose >mistook me for her missing calf as I was launching the boat. She swam >out and followed half way across the lake, crying and grunting the whole >time, before giving up and going back to shore. My son and I paddled >like crazy to stay ahead of her! Funny thing is, that's not the only >time a cow moose has mistaken me for a calf!! =8-0 > >Karen ;-) > Karen , what color was your canoe, seems a yellow one attracted gators, white hull blue deck kayak attracted a shark, maybe we could come up with a color they don't like. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, it was a long time ago and I don't recall what color the canoe was, but someone suggested (privately) I stop wearing a brown fur coat when I paddle! ;-) Karen dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net wrote: > > Karen , what color was your canoe, seems a yellow one attracted gators, > white hull blue deck kayak attracted a shark, maybe we could come up with a > color they don't like. > >-- Karen Hancock San Clemente, CA magpi_at_access1.net 949/487-2602 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Frank >P.S. FWIW, I was fortunate enough to paddle with Dana when I lived in Fla. and I can assure you he ============ finally another great mystery of paddlewise has been revealed to me.. i've wondered if Dana was a guy or gal for quite awhile.. and since i didn't see a profile in the *Who are We* thread, i couldn't be sure. now, unlike a well know Canadian paddler who posts very enlightening material to paddlewise, we have some one (Frank) who has met Dana and tells us that he is a guy! Fantastic,... Frank are you planning any trips to Canada this year? or Be on the look out, on the US East Coast express ways this Friday afternoon are a large number of Canadians heading south... perhaps one of them is a famous *Dr.* If you meet him and JW, let us know... thanks, bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sheesh, thanks Dana. Let me guess, you unsubscribed right after you started this mess??? ;-) Scott Goin strapless, just north of Cuba *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > [snip] > I used to carry my canoe on top of my truck using foam blocks and straps > running into the cab. Not the best system but it worked. I also, as now, > attach bow and stern lines. It takes far more time to run the straps than > the bow and stern lines. I had to do an emergency stop from 65 mph. The > stern lines kept the canoe on the truck. Period. [snip] > Mr. Dave K wrote... |Agreed with the thrust of your well-stated post. Small error above. It |is |the front line (on bow of canoe) which keeps the canoe from sliding |forward |(relative to the decelerating vehicle) during an emergency stop. Lines |can |only exert pulling forces, not pushing forces. But when you brake your vehicle things move to the front. When this happened to me, the bow lines where very loose after braking and the stern lines where very taut. I thought the bow lines kept the boat on during normal driving by keeping the boat from lifting and being pushed back by the airstream. Stern lines helped during braking. 'Course bow and stern in this case refer to the front and back of the truck. With the canoe who cares which end is which? 8-) Certainly on the truck I never cared! 8-) Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > > dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > > > > I used to carry my canoe on top of my truck using foam blocks and straps > > running into the cab. Not the best system but it worked. I also, as now, > > attach bow and stern lines. It takes far more time to run the straps than > > the bow and stern lines. I had to do an emergency stop from 65 mph. The > > stern lines kept the canoe on the truck. Period. [snip] > > Dave K wrote... > |Agreed with the thrust of your well-stated post. Small error above. It is > |the front line (on bow of canoe) which keeps the canoe from sliding forward > |(relative to the decelerating vehicle) during an emergency stop. Lines > |can only exert pulling forces, not pushing forces. > > But when you brake your vehicle things move to the front. When this > happened to me, the bow lines where very loose after braking and the stern > lines where very taut. I thought the bow lines kept the boat on during > normal driving by keeping the boat from lifting and being pushed back by > the airstream. Stern lines helped during braking. Dan, I believe the text of mine you have quoted on Paddlewise was part of a private email to you. In this case, I do not mind, but here is a small reminder: please keep private exchanges between just the two corresponders. Thanks. Re: which line holds the canoe onto the rack in an E-stop: while I was driving down the road yesterday day, I realized the bow line will do that ONLY if the bow of the canoe extends *forward* of the front bumper! For my boats, the bows are well to the rear of the front bumper -- oops! So, I'm dead **wrong** about that bow line! Re: can the stern line hold the canoe from sliding off the front in an E-stop: only if the stern of the canoe is FORWARD of the rear bumper. On my vehicles, the stern parts of canoes and kayaks extend way beyond the rear bumper, so stern lines can not do that. (Maybe on your (Dan's) vehicle that is not the case, so that your stern line does keep the canoe from sliding forward.) So, with the bow line running forward of the nose of the canoe, and the stern line running forward of the stern, seems to me NEITHER can supply the force which keeps the canoe from sliding forward (except to the extent they contribute to frictional forces between rack and canoe). Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:35 AM 4/19/99 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote: >Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? Hi Dave et al! M'lady and I routinely tote two 16.5ft solo boats on a wee little Subaru 4X4 wagon. We had problems once with the boats sliding forward while descending a shortcut (read "jeep trail") from a local reservoir. A thoughtful inspection revealed that due to the way the boats were situated on the rack and tied, both front and back lines were exerting a forwardly force on the canoes. I don't believe we actually could have lost the boats this way, but 'twas a mite disconcerting nevertheless. Now we tie the rear lines to one of the thwarts instead of the grab handle, thus assuring that the rear lines pull backwards and the front lines pull forward (and that the rear wiper won't wipe, incidentally). We also use four lines for each boat, one to each corner of the subie. Sure, it's a bit overkill, but the boats don't move at all now, and they've endured some real serious cross-winds while traveling. BTW, had a Barrecrafters (sp?) ski rack come undone whilst cruisin' down the interstate once, ripped the chrome trim right off of the roof gutter on one side of the old DOG (second D and final E both long gone ;->). Fortuitously the only damages were a couple of additional scratches to the boards, and a benter (that a word d'ya suppose?) ski pole. (Trim?!? we don' need no stinkin' trim!) Don't think I'd want to try that again, tho, 'specially with a fine brace o' canoes riding on top . . . use them bow -n- stern lines folks. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > So, with the bow line running forward of the nose of the canoe, and the > stern line running forward of the stern, seems to me NEITHER can supply the > force which keeps the canoe from sliding forward (except to the extent they > contribute to frictional forces between rack and canoe). > > Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? > > -- > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR > ********* When I had a fullsized pickup I always put a line from the carrying yoke to the rear bumper for that. I realised early on that all the ropes were pulling forward, so I added a rope. Now that I amd driving a Jeep Wrangler the point is moot, EVERYTHING is longer than a Wrangler! Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
<Snip of Old stuff> Dan, I believe the text of mine you have quoted on Paddlewise was part of a private email to you. In this case, I do not mind, but here is a small reminder: please keep private exchanges between just the two corresponders. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I did not catch that it was from the list. Just saw the name. RERe: which line holds the canoe onto the rack in an E-stop: while I was driving down the road yesterday day, I realized the bow line will do that ONLY if the bow of the canoe extends *forward* of the front bumper! For my boats, the bows are well to the rear of the front bumper -- oops! So, I'm dead **wrong** about that bow line! RERe: can the stern line hold the canoe from sliding off the front in an E-stop: only if the stern of the canoe is FORWARD of the rear bumper. On my vehicles, the stern parts of canoes and kayaks extend way beyond the rear bumper, so stern lines can not do that. (Maybe on your (Dan's) vehicle that is not the case, so that your stern line does keep the canoe from sliding forward.) LOL! Right, my boats dont' fit over the ends of my truck. A 17 foot long sea kayak just looks right on top of a full size extended cab pick'm up truck! 8-) My old truck that did the sudden braking was not as large but the canoe fit so that the "stern" lines held the boat on during braking. So what I said was correct for boat that fit within the bumper of the vehicle and you are correct when the stern/bow are over the bumber of the vehicle! LOL! Kinda funny.... Never thought of it that way before. Our Cherokee is in the situation you describe. Hmmmmmmm..... May need to come up with a better way to tie down the front of the yaks..... Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In the case of an emergency stop, I had bad results with the line from bow/stern down to bumber. What I've started doing, is running the bow line from the bow, back to the rack. I've had a couple of hard stops since, and it worked like a champ. I'm not sure I see much point in the kayak tied to bumper lines. The only way it is likely to ever do anything, is if the rack itself seperated from the car at high speed; and I think in that case, the result would be catastrophic whether or not there are two pieces of soft rope between the boat and the car. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote: > > What I've started doing, is running > the bow line from the bow, back to the rack. > > I'm not sure I see much point in the kayak tied to bumper lines. > The only way it is likely to ever do anything, is if the rack itself > seperated from the car at high speed; and I think in that case, the > result would be catastrophic whether or not there are two pieces of > soft rope between the boat and the car. This is not so important if your boat is in cradles, but if it's sitting directly on the rack, using triangulated bow and stern lines to the bumper prevents it from moving side to side. The line from the bow back to the rack doesn't do that, although that's what I sometimes do when carrying a short WW boat, where the wind forces are different. Obviously, exactly what the bow and stern lines do differs depending on the length of the boat and the vehicle. Mostly what keeps the boat from sliding forward is the belly lines. Unless your boat is very radical, it's wider and deeper between the racks that beyond them. The front belly line is tied on smaller than the greatest circumference of the boat, so the wide part can't slide through it. Assume you have triangulated end ropes and the rear belly rope parts. Nothing much very dramatic is going to happen. If the front belly rope parts, the bow is kept from moving much by the front bumper ropes. Even if the rack comes unattached, the triangulated ropes keep it more or less on top of the vehicle. Same scenario, no bumper ropes: rear belly rope parts, nothing much happens until you brake. Then the front of boat can't move much but the stern swings around and either snaps the front rope or torques your boat to matchsticks. If instead the front belly ropes parts, the wind instantly torques the boat around. Slam on the brakes and it comes flying back. Such fun. Let's go back to paddling. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Way back before there were strong roof racks, bow and stern lines saved me a few times when the suction cup roof racks slipped in the rain, and more recently with a proper set of modern racks saved me when the rain gutter trim let go. Both rack and vehicle parts fail. Webbing and rope break. A bit of redundancy won't harm anything and can save you from unexpected failures. Cheers, Richard Culpeper ---------- > From: R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> > > I'm not sure I see much point in the kayak tied to bumper lines. > The only way it is likely to ever do anything, is if the rack itself > seperated from the car at high speed; and I think in that case, the > result would be catastrophic whether or not there are two pieces of > soft rope between the boat and the car. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with a bow or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job? Back when I used foam blocks to carry my canoe on my truck, I *always* used a bow/stern strap and 1 strap through the cab. It was required to properly secure the canoe on my vehicle. When I started kayaking and hauling it around on foam pads, I also used the same tie down method as the canoe. The bow/stern straps provided very little in the way of holding the kayak to the truck, but did keep the kayak from twisting side to side. Not very much was required to keep the kayak from going forward or to the rear, and the heavy straps I used were certainly overkill. The bow strap also beat the heck out of the paint on the top front edge of my hood. The Yakima racks I now use are firmly attached. So much that when my kayak is strapped to them I'm certain that for the racks to come off, the roof must come with it. Each vehicle is different, and I've heard of racks coming loose before, but I'm fortunate to have a good set of steel rain gutters on both of my vehicles. Anyone who has watched me tie down my kayak knows I give a very strong pull on it when done to see if there is anything that might come loose. The kayak fits well in the saddles. Very little force is required to keep it in place. The front and rear rack straps are more than enough to keep the kayak firmly attached to the roof. Having properly secured the kayak, the question for me is, will it stay there if a strap fails? The rear strap failing means the kayak could work it's way to the rear and fall off at highway speeds. A failure of the front strap could mean launching a missile in a panic stop or crash. This assumes that the surviving strap didn't hang on any of the deck fittings as the kayak tried to slip through. Running both straps under the deck lines might also be a good idea, especially for longer trips. Because of the saddles the twisting problem I had with the foam blocks is not a issue, so any backup tie down method does not have to be limited to the bow/stern setup. I agree with the poster that stated the kayak doesn't present as much of an aerodynamic challenge as a canoe. Especially if you have a cockpit cover across the coaming. Each vehicle and kayak/canoe setup is different. The foremost question should not be whether you need a bow/stern strap, it should be "Is the load properly secured?" After this first question is answered, the next question is "What is my backup if this primary piece should fail?" For some/most, the answer might be bow/stern straps. For some, answering the first question may require adding bow/stern straps. YMMV. If you have the slightest lack of confidence in your method, it probably isn't secure. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I made little fleece wrappers for my bow and stern lines so my car paint is protected. Plus it keeps the lines warm in winter. I think they provide better service if their needs are considered. :-) Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: Robert Woodard[SMTP:woodardr_at_tidalwave.net] > Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:35 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] emergency stops and bow lines > > > I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with a bow > or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job? > > Back when I used foam blocks to carry my canoe on my truck, I *always* > used > a bow/stern strap and 1 strap through the cab. It was required to properly > secure the canoe on my vehicle. > > When I started kayaking and hauling it around on foam pads, I also used > the > same tie down method as the canoe. The bow/stern straps provided very > little > in the way of holding the kayak to the truck, but did keep the kayak from > twisting side to side. Not very much was required to keep the kayak from > going forward or to the rear, and the heavy straps I used were certainly > overkill. The bow strap also beat the heck out of the paint on the top > front > edge of my hood. > > The Yakima racks I now use are firmly attached. So much that when my kayak > is strapped to them I'm certain that for the racks to come off, the roof > must come with it. Each vehicle is different, and I've heard of racks > coming > loose before, but I'm fortunate to have a good set of steel rain gutters > on > both of my vehicles. Anyone who has watched me tie down my kayak knows I > give a very strong pull on it when done to see if there is anything that > might come loose. > > The kayak fits well in the saddles. Very little force is required to keep > it > in place. The front and rear rack straps are more than enough to keep the > kayak firmly attached to the roof. Having properly secured the kayak, the > question for me is, will it stay there if a strap fails? > > The rear strap failing means the kayak could work it's way to the rear and > fall off at highway speeds. A failure of the front strap could mean > launching a missile in a panic stop or crash. This assumes that the > surviving strap didn't hang on any of the deck fittings as the kayak tried > to slip through. Running both straps under the deck lines might also be a > good idea, especially for longer trips. > > Because of the saddles the twisting problem I had with the foam blocks is > not a issue, so any backup tie down method does not have to be limited to > the bow/stern setup. I agree with the poster that stated the kayak doesn't > present as much of an aerodynamic challenge as a canoe. Especially if you > have a cockpit cover across the coaming. > > Each vehicle and kayak/canoe setup is different. The foremost question > should not be whether you need a bow/stern strap, it should be "Is the > load > properly secured?" After this first question is answered, the next > question > is "What is my backup if this primary piece should fail?" For some/most, > the > answer might be bow/stern straps. For some, answering the first question > may > require adding bow/stern straps. YMMV. If you have the slightest lack of > confidence in your method, it probably isn't secure. > > Woody > > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Last time this thread came up (ending with Scott proposing a secure bolt through the bottom of the kayak and top of the roof) I fought and fought and *just* managed to keep a firm bite on my tongue. But Woody brought me out this time. :-) In a message dated 4/19/99 7:02:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, woodardr_at_tidalwave.net writes: << I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with a bow or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job?> It certainly will if the rope curves around the front edge and vibrates merrily as you drive. For those of us who have boats longer than our cars, no problemo. For others, this is a concern. One solution: Open your hood (trunk) and find a fender bolt inside the match-line between your fender and hood (trunk). Remove the bolt; get an appropriate-length of nylon strap; double it over; sew it at the ends (if you are fairly anal) to form a tear-drop-shaped loop; use a hot soldering iron or the like to melt a hole through the doubled strap, one width from the matched ends and on the longitudinal centerline; put fender washers on each side of the hole, run the fender bolt through, and reinstall the bolt. Now, tuck the strap(s) down inside your engine compartment (trunk) until next time you haul watercraft. Pull the loop(s) up though the match-line and run your bow (stern) line through them instead of down over the front or rear of your vehicle. Totally confused? Me too, and I wrote it! <Back when I used foam blocks to carry my canoe on my truck, I *always* used a bow/stern strap > Pardon me if I'm repeating myself here, but I really advise against using strap for bow and stern lines. Reason: The wind pressure against a strap is significantly higher than a rope. I've seen plastic boats (I know you have a gorgeous, stiff woody, Woody) bend significantly under the wind pressure against the straps used on some friend's boats on a moderately warm day of freeway-speed driving (the straps were not over-tightened). I also had a customer come by the shop with a Sea Lion draped down onto his hood -- the reinforcement shaft had kinked and the boat oilcanned, folding down until it was literally laying on his hood, with the boat still properly secured in both racks. And yes, for the bow line he used a cam-buckle strap -- the same width as those supplied by Yakima and most every other supplier of roof racks. He swears he didn't over tighten the strap, it was a hot day and he was doing about 70-80 MPH when the boat suddenly buckled. < The Yakima racks I now use are firmly attached. So much that when my kayak is strapped to them I'm certain that for the racks to come off, the roof must come with it. . . . . Anyone who has watched me tie down my kayak knows I give a very strong pull on it when done to see if there is anything that might come loose. > I've heard many tales of woe about boats coming loose, and every one of the tale started with words very similar to those. Among the tales are ones where the roof (or portions thereof) or the rain gutters *did* go with the rack -- stuff happens. < A failure of the front strap could mean launching a missile in a panic stop or crash. This assumes that the surviving strap didn't hang on any of the deck fittings as the kayak tried to slip through. . . .>> Or the front of the boat lifts, torqueing the rear rack until it (or the rear strap) fails, leaving the boat doing enders down the road behind you. Yup, that's happened too. For those who think that the strongest possible rope/strap is the answer to all the above, I offer this bit of ancient history: In a former life, I flew sailplanes (gliders) and belonged to a club that owned several. At the same time, I worked in a materials testing lab and occasionally tested strap and webbing for tensile strength, elongation, etc. One of our sailplanes had a military-surplus four-point chest/seat belt system with a 4-inch wide lap belt so thick that you need to visualize a car towing strap instead of a normal seat belt. I had tested such straps to failure at (as I remember) near 20,000 Lbs., so I didn't worry about the fact that the belt was dirty and showing some wear. One day, one of the club members was preparing to launch in that sailplane when she leaned forward to pick up a chart she had dropped. As she strained hard against the restraint of the lap belt, it suddenly gave up the ghost and parted! She ripped right through a strap that, if new, could pick up her, the sailplane and probably the towplane too. UV and chemical degradation as well as internal wear from grit can weaken any seemingly good strap or rope without any alarming external signs. Redundancy rules. Stepping off soapbox, Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> But Woody brought me out this time. :-) I have that *gift* 8^) > I've seen plastic boats (I know you have a > gorgeous, stiff woody, Woody) bend significantly under the wind pressure <blush> Maybe I should keep it in a fleece wrapper? > Or the front of the boat lifts, torqueing the rear rack until it > (or the rear strap) fails, leaving the boat doing enders down > the road behind you. Yup, that's happened too. Just a thought: Does anyone know someone or someplace on the web that might have studied cartop load failures? I would be real curious as to why most cartopped loads fly off. Rain gutter failure? Strap failure? Forgetting to tie it down? It seems I remember reading a statement on one of the commercial rack vendors web sites about the most common cause of failure, but I can't seem to find it now. Looks like most say to use bow/stern tie downs for canoes/kayaks. > Redundancy rules. I agree! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I made little fleece wrappers for my bow and stern lines so my car paint is protected. Plus it keeps the lines warm in winter. I think they provide better service if their needs are considered. :-) Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ -------------- I've also heard that someone makes fleece booties for the saddles but I haven't seen/heard who or where. With these booties and your little gaiters, the lines & racks will be nice 'n toastie. :-) Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> In a message dated 4/19/99 7:02:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > woodardr_at_tidalwave.net writes: > > << I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with a bow > or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job?> Paint job? Paddlers with vehicles with paint jobs? What a concept! After giving up on suction cup racks I never bothered with car roof racks for years until I moved on from canoes into kayaks. I figured the only reason you need racks at all is to protect the boat. I don't know if I'd trust any paddler whose vehicle had a paint job worth protecting. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Culpeper wrote: > > Paint job? Paddlers with vehicles with paint jobs? What a concept! > > I don't know if I'd trust any paddler whose vehicle had a paint job worth > protecting. Possible exception: At last year's East Coast Symposium I spotted an early 70's Cadillac with 2 glass SKs on top, all painted a matching aqua and white. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sounds cute, Deb... Did you use colors that match your car or your kayak? :) On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:23:56 -0400 "Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" <dreeves_at_lucent.com> writes: >I made little fleece wrappers for my bow and stern lines so my car >paint is >protected. Plus it keeps the lines warm in winter. I think they >provide >better service if their needs are considered. :-) >Debbie Reeves >Sandy Hook, NJ > >> ---------- >> From: Robert Woodard[SMTP:woodardr_at_tidalwave.net] >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 9:35 PM >> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] emergency stops and bow lines >> >> >> I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with >a bow >> or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job? >> >> Back when I used foam blocks to carry my canoe on my truck, I >*always* >> used >> a bow/stern strap and 1 strap through the cab. It was required to >properly >> secure the canoe on my vehicle. >> >> When I started kayaking and hauling it around on foam pads, I also >used >> the >> same tie down method as the canoe. The bow/stern straps provided >very >> little >> in the way of holding the kayak to the truck, but did keep the kayak >from >> twisting side to side. Not very much was required to keep the kayak >from >> going forward or to the rear, and the heavy straps I used were >certainly >> overkill. The bow strap also beat the heck out of the paint on the >top >> front >> edge of my hood. >> >> The Yakima racks I now use are firmly attached. So much that when my >kayak >> is strapped to them I'm certain that for the racks to come off, the >roof >> must come with it. Each vehicle is different, and I've heard of >racks >> coming >> loose before, but I'm fortunate to have a good set of steel rain >gutters >> on >> both of my vehicles. Anyone who has watched me tie down my kayak >knows I >> give a very strong pull on it when done to see if there is anything >that >> might come loose. >> >> The kayak fits well in the saddles. Very little force is required to >keep >> it >> in place. The front and rear rack straps are more than enough to >keep the >> kayak firmly attached to the roof. Having properly secured the >kayak, the >> question for me is, will it stay there if a strap fails? >> >> The rear strap failing means the kayak could work it's way to the >rear and >> fall off at highway speeds. A failure of the front strap could mean >> launching a missile in a panic stop or crash. This assumes that the >> surviving strap didn't hang on any of the deck fittings as the kayak >tried >> to slip through. Running both straps under the deck lines might also >be a >> good idea, especially for longer trips. >> >> Because of the saddles the twisting problem I had with the foam >blocks is >> not a issue, so any backup tie down method does not have to be >limited to >> the bow/stern setup. I agree with the poster that stated the kayak >doesn't >> present as much of an aerodynamic challenge as a canoe. Especially >if you >> have a cockpit cover across the coaming. >> >> Each vehicle and kayak/canoe setup is different. The foremost >question >> should not be whether you need a bow/stern strap, it should be "Is >the >> load >> properly secured?" After this first question is answered, the next >> question >> is "What is my backup if this primary piece should fail?" For >some/most, >> the >> answer might be bow/stern straps. For some, answering the first >question >> may >> require adding bow/stern straps. YMMV. If you have the slightest >lack of >> confidence in your method, it probably isn't secure. >> >> Woody >> >> >> >> >************************************************************************** >> * >> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >> >************************************************************************** >> * >> >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Woody asks - << Does anyone know someone or someplace on the web that might have studied cartop load failures? I would be real curious as to why most cartopped loads fly off. >> Interesting question. When it became necessary for me to change vehicles (never mind why) I also needed a new Yakima rack. I often carry two 17 - 18 foot "heavy British heavies" atop the minivan, a load totalling perhaps 120-135 lbs, and the good folks at Yakima wrote emphatically that their racks would not safely hold boats that long or loads that heavy. I swallowed hard a few times, drilled out the roof of my van and bolted tracks in place which will hold both boats without question. Anyway, the boats have stayed where they're tied, for the last three years anyway. - Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bhansen97_at_aol.com wrote: > > Woody asks - > > << Does anyone know someone or someplace on the web that might > have studied cartop load failures? I would be real curious as to why most > cartopped loads fly off. >> > > Interesting question. When it became necessary for me to change vehicles > (never mind why) I also needed a new Yakima rack. I often carry two 17 - 18 > foot "heavy British heavies" atop the minivan, a load totalling perhaps > 120-135 lbs, and the good folks at Yakima wrote emphatically that their racks > would not safely hold boats that long or loads that heavy. I swallowed hard a > few times, drilled out the roof of my van and bolted tracks in place which > will hold both boats without question. Yakima rates the racks on one of my rigs at 165 lbs max. I am certain I have hauled 200 lbs up there a couple times, with no significant degradation of anything. Yakima also refuses to endorse a common practice for pickups with a roof-line-consistent canopy (canopy roof line same distance from the ground as the cab's): one crossbar on the cab and the other on the canopy. Their concern is the shifting which occurs as the truck body flexes -- purportedly leading to failure of the rack system (straps? cradles? towers? they don't say). I've run a set of crossbars that way for 7 seasons, with all kinds of loads up there and never noticed any problems, either with the rack (TLC cradles, most of the time) or with the boats. My suspicion: Yakima's product liability attorney is overly cautious (or, "full of it"). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The car - I change kayaks too much. Come to think of it, I guess they will look good with the stripper I'm building. The question is, will I ever finish it. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: volinjo_at_juno.com[SMTP:volinjo_at_juno.com] > > Sounds cute, Deb... Did you use colors that match your car or your > kayak? > :) > <dreeves_at_lucent.com> writes: > >I made little fleece wrappers for my bow and stern lines so my car > >paint is > >protected. Plus it keeps the lines warm in winter. I think they > >provide > >better service if their needs are considered. :-) > >Debbie Reeves > >Sandy Hook, NJ > > > >> ---------- > >> From: Robert Woodard[SMTP:woodardr_at_tidalwave.net] > >> I haven't seen mention of it, but has no one else had a problem with > >a bow > >> or stern strap doing a number on the car's paint job? > >> > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Yakima also refuses to endorse a common practice for pickups snip Their> concern is the shifting which occurs as the truck body flexes -- > My suspicion: Yakima's product liability attorney is overly cautious Truck canopies must vary a great deal: some amply strong enough, others not. Yakima can't know which one you'll pick, so declines endorsement of all. Might be more useful for them to do some research and let us know which are OK. Which canopies have Paddlewise people used successfully? Cheers, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: > > Yakima also refuses to endorse a common practice for pickups > snip > Their concern is the shifting which occurs as the truck body flexes -- > > My suspicion: Yakima's product liability attorney is overly cautious > > Truck canopies must vary a great deal: some amply strong enough, others not. > Yakima can't know which one you'll pick, so declines endorsement of all. Well, I queried the nice lady at Yakima about that. She specifically mentioned the flex as the issue. I agree some canopies are cheesy, and maybe that is a concern of theirs, also. > Might be more useful for them to do some research and let us know > which are OK. Which canopies have Paddlewise people used successfully? Good thought. I've been successful with SnugTop and "The Ultimate" (Portland, OR vendor -- not a national brand). The former is fiberglass (only one season of use, so far) and the latter is 3/16 to 1/4 inch thick ABS, with a herky aluminum frame inside to support the roof. The ABS has held up for over 6 seasons and shows no signs of stress cracking. Note: I put the rack supports at the rear corners -- seems like that area is more rigid than in the center. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:35:32 Dave Kruger wrote: > > I realized the bow line will do that >ONLY if the bow of the canoe extends *forward* of the front bumper! For my >boats, the bows are well to the rear of the front bumper >Re: can the stern line hold the canoe from sliding off the front in an >E-stop: only if the stern of the canoe is FORWARD of the rear bumper. On >my vehicles, the stern parts of canoes and kayaks extend way beyond the >rear bumper, so stern lines can not do that. >So, with the bow line running forward of the nose of the canoe, and the >stern line running forward of the stern, seems to me NEITHER can supply the >force which keeps the canoe from sliding forward (except to the extent they >contribute to frictional forces between rack and canoe). > >Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? > Superglue! Just glue that puppy to the roof. When you get to the put in just roll your car over and float away. Solves that nasty problem of catching a ride back to the put in when you take out. :) Seriously, a rope can only apply a force in tension. It has no ability to apply a compression force (well, until you pack it down to a small ball that will never get unknotted). But even in your situation the bow and stern lines will keep it from flying off. The boat would slide forward of the rear bumper until the stern lines were taut and under tension again. You would have to get out and reposition the boat to continue driving but at least it would still be in one piece semi on the roof and not 20+ pieces scattered down the road (man, that's going to take a _lot_ of fiberglass and epoxy to fix, anyone up for a jigsaw puzzle?). Mel --- There are three types of people, those who can count and those who can't. -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Just my two cents of bow and stern lines. Use 'em. They take so little time to attach especially if you are always dealing with the same kayak on your roof. In such a case, your lines can already be pre-set with loops all in the right places etc. so it is just a matter of half a minute each for the two ends. As for tying to bumpers vs. the rack. Racks do come loose. Lines to the bumpers may help prevent the rack from going airborne...the looosened rack will make quite a lot of noise as it starts banging on your roof and will give you a chance to pull over. As for the question of the angle the lines are vis-a-vis bow and stern, such as overhang over the bumpers etc., obviously some setups will work better than others. But whatever the setup, in a sudden braking situation, it will help some to keep the boat from totally flying forward and hitting the ground ahead. Bow and stern lines also help with tire wear. A bow line keeps the nose down. If the nose is lifting, the boat will press down more on the rear of the car. The forces could be the equivalent of carrying quite a bit of weight in the rear with more wear on the rear tires. Bow and stern lines also help enormously in evening out the pressures created when a big truck rolls by at a higher speed. This reduces the stress on the mid section straps hold the boat to the rack. I see no down side to using bow and stern lines except the time it takes and, to a degree, that they cut down forward vision if you are carrying several kayaks and a line is in front of the driver. I think the human eye operates in a way that it quickly makes that line invisible unless you decide to get fixated on it. I fail to appreciate why the almost religious resistance to something that is so practical and easy to use. The only times I have not used bow and stern lines is for a few blocks of driving at under 20 mph but with certainty that the rack was on well and the webbing straps holding the boat to the rack were looking okay. I did so yesterday moving an assembled folding kayak I'm reviewing from my apartment to a nearby storage spot. Even I don't rush to knock down and assemble kayaks if I don't have to!!! :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
What Ralph said: > > Just my two cents of bow and stern lines. Use 'em. What I expected Raplh to say: I have never experienced any problems with my kayak sailing out of the trunk of my car during a panic stop. What's the big deal? Steve ;) -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > > What Ralph said: > > > > Just my two cents of bow and stern lines. Use 'em. > > What I expected Raplh to say: > > I have never experienced any problems with my kayak sailing out of the > trunk of my car during a panic stop. What's the big deal? > > Steve ;) Life is full of the unexpected. While I was tempted to say exactly what you said, I restrained myself. I also restrained myself in the discussion of maintenance and repair of fiberglass, gelcoat, hatches, stress fractures, etc. One of the raps against folding kayaks in all general kayaking books is that they require lots of maintenance. Interesting thought but one that hardly any folding kayaker practices except those who want to keep their boat for 60 years. Of people with wooden framed kayaks, I have seldomly run across any who have varnished the frames even every few years. My little fleet's wooden framed kayaks have never seen a lick of varnish in 10 years; the varnish I dutifully bought in my first year has long since dried up in the can. I wash the boat when the opportunity presents itself, i.e. a hose happens to be around, and so some boats have not been washed in years. With aluminum framed kayaks, all I ever see anyone do is an occasional (2 or 3 times a year) lubricating of the male ends of tubes and any sliding portions of tubes. I have no patches on the hulls of any of my boats although the beaches I pull up on tend to be only 15% sand with the rest of nails, rusting car parts, and unknown (and best left that way) particles. I have broken one wooden longeron, the sum total of damage in 10 years or so. And it happened while cartopping the boat!!! Someone had stolen one of my two racks but I had to go anyway with several boats on the roof. The longeron, which usually sits on a padded kayak rack bar (now stolen), wound up pressed against the factory roof bar and the longeron broke in transit. And as luck would have it, I was paddling with Doug Simpson owner of the Feathercraft company known for its aluminum frame approach to folding kayaks. When we were knocking down all the boats on a city street near his hotel, he saw me withdraw the broken wooden longeron from my Klepper and asked in a most dry Canadian way "Ralph, does that happen often?" ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Just wanted to add a little support to this comment. A friend of mine recently braked suddenly at a stop light and watched from behind his steering wheel as his whitewater kayak flew off his roof rack, skidded across the hood of his car, and slid into the middle of the intersection. I'd be crying myself to sleep for months if this happened to my nice, fiberglass sea kayak. He'd simply failed to tighten the straps on his stacker tight enough.... ---------- > Just my two cents of bow and stern lines. Use 'em. > *Aliquando et inserire iucundum est* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > So, with the bow line running forward of the nose of the > canoe, and the > stern line running forward of the stern, seems to me NEITHER > can supply the > force which keeps the canoe from sliding forward (except to > the extent they > contribute to frictional forces between rack and canoe). > > Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? > Those bow and stern tie downs will work in an emergency stop to keep the yak/canoe fastened to your vehicle. Maybe not exactly where it started, but at least preventing it from becoming a free-flying missile if the hull straps fail. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Re: can the stern line hold the canoe from sliding off the front in an >E-stop: only if the stern of the canoe is FORWARD of the rear bumper. On >my vehicles, the stern parts of canoes and kayaks extend way beyond the >rear bumper, so stern lines can not do that. (Maybe on your (Dan's) >vehicle that is not the case, so that your stern line does keep the canoe >from sliding forward.) > True, in case of a sudden stop that extra distance has to be covered if the stern is rear of the bumper. But it will still stop a boat once that distance is covered. In my case, in a minivan, the stern winds up about a foot behind. A friend who is a bit more paranoid that I about this will do either of two things. Either attach the rear line further forward, e.g. around the cockpit, or else attach an additional line to the cockpit or some other location so as to really hold the thing back. I have a windshield wiper on my rear windshield so this isn't a good option for me. I rely on the strength of the webbing straps I use, and on a solidly attached roofrack. Actually, the rack will likely slide forward on the rain gutters before the boat tears loose. I DO use very strong rope, about 2000 lbs test, for the tiedowns (6 mm nylon Prusik Cord). They are attached to the car under the bumper, then to the boat with a steel hook with optional short loops of prusik cord to accomodate different boats. I tighten this arrangement using a wood bar just like the tent guy rope tension adjusters. Takes me just seconds to put these ropes on. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> Whattaya say, Paddlewisers? What keeps that blamed canoe up there? I dunno. Last year, or was it the year before (damn years are starting to run together) I was 20-30 minutes into the return trip home when a nagging question started tugging at my sub-conscious: "Did I really secure the cross ties?". I could see the bow line in front of me and the stern line in the mirror. But the cross ties? I had been doing 60-65 mph, passed a couple of semis and except for some sluggishnes climbing a couple of small hills, all seemed normal, yet the question remained "Did I or didn't I". So I pulled over and checked and the answer was a resounding "No!". What kept the trucks from blowing 18 foot kayak off. Why didn't the wind just lift it up and off? I claim the bow line was fairly slack, as usual. Shouldn't it have been stretched tight if it was fighting to hold the boat on? I dunno. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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