The year 2040 A.D.: As I place my kayak at the launch site and gaze out onto the bay, I marvel at the thousands of kayakers out there bumping into each other. My God, they can hardly turn! Hey, there's the grandson of Doug Lloyd and over there is Matt Broze's grandnephew.....both in the newbie section. People around here still talk about Matt's and Doug's funerals. Remember how they floated them out on wooden kayaks and set them on fire? Yeah it was quite a sight. Kayaking legends alright....kayaking legends. Now where the heck did I put that darn paddle float? Ha Ha, Walt Levins *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> <snip> > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > I guess this, like anything else, is relative. Those that started paddling decades ago feel a greater impact than those that started paddling say 10 years ago that see a greater impact than those that started paddling a year ago that see a greater impact than those that started a couple of months ago that think the waters are vast open spaces without a whole lot of people but will feel differently this time next year. Which is where we all were at one time or another. Does this make sense? Is it important? Probably not... :-) I think teaching safety and environment sensitivity is probably the most important action we can take because what is going to impact us all the most, imo, is regulation due to an increase of accidents and/or environmental abuse of wilderness areas resulting from an increase of ignorant kayakers on the water... which makes kayakers more visible to those that are not kayakers (as well as other kayakers). I am greatful to those that were enthusiastic about my getting into sea kayaking. How could I possibly deny that for anyone else? ? :-) ? Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
First Doug said: > > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > > community, yet? [snip] Jackie then said: > I guess this, like anything else, is relative. Those that started > paddling decades ago feel a greater impact than those that started > paddling say 10 years ago that see a greater impact than those that > started paddling a year ago that see a greater impact than those that > started a couple of months ago that think the waters are vast open > spaces without a whole lot of people but will feel differently this > time next year. Which is where we all were at one time or another. > > Does this make sense? Is it important? Probably not... :-) I think it is important, and it makes a lot of sense. Doug has raised an existential question -- often the most important sort. Five years ago my 80-year-old father gave me a panoramic photo of the north shore of La Jolla, CA, circa ... 1918! It looks like some remote parts of the Baja coast: sere grassland with the odd oak or two, a straggle of telephone poles along a lazy dirt track, and ... way off in the distance ... a couple haciendas. The haciendas are the ancestors of wall-to-wall condos, apartments, and resorteffluvium -- which now contaminate the La Jolla scene. Who changed that scene? We did. Just as we are changing the paddle scene in Doug's back yard, and Jackie's, too. I was not immaculately deposited here in a little town-by-the-bay, on the River, near the coast, at the NW tip of Oregon, in a state which had billboards on the OR/CA border some 20 years ago asking Californians to "visit, but please do not stay ..." I came here to work, raise a child, and to love this land the way haciendans in La Jolla did in 1918. And I can not avoid leaving some marks. When I intertidally flush in a private cove on the coast of Vancouver Island, my waste suffers the same fate Doug's does. He and I are brothers-in-biological similarity. So is everyone else reading this. Doug is trolling. He caught some of us. Got any **real** answers to your questions, Doug? The problem is there are too many of us. As Ted Turner said of his late conversion to the philosophy of Planned Parenthood: "Yeah, I've got five kids. I would not start five kids today, but what can I do with the five I already have? Shoot 'em?" (He actually said this -- in my paraphrase, anyway.) Anybody who has practical, realistic ways to promote protective enjoyment of precious paddle spots should speak up. Heaven knows resource managers like Anna Gajda of Gwaii Haanas struggle every day with this. We owe them our ideas and support. Not simplistic answers or jingoistic phraseology. What are the answers? Limits? Restricted publicity? Concentrating paddlers in one area (viz. Brokens) to avert crowding in another (viz. the Deers)? Guidebook authors with sensitive scruples? Fewer "dramatic" rescues widely bandied about the paddling community? Hook's out Doug ... chomp away. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been lurking and can't help myself jumping feet first into this one.... If kayaking gets a critical mass (lots and lots), maybe it could get some of the clout as the personal watercraft bunch???? If the sport is reserved for the elite few, there will be no political clout, hence no water trails such as the one in Puget Sound, etc. etc. Yeah - sometimes our favorite places end up having more bodies that we'd prefer on the day we decide to visit - but it's really a case of is the glass half full or half empty. More kayakers mean more votes / clout to wield for what is best for kayakers.... AEC ----- Original Message ----- From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > > From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> > > <snip> > > > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > > community, yet? > > > > BC'in Ya > > Doug Lloyd > > > I guess this, like anything else, is relative. Those that started > paddling decades ago feel a greater impact than those that started > paddling say 10 years ago that see a greater impact than those that > started paddling a year ago that see a greater impact than those that > started a couple of months ago that think the waters are vast open > spaces without a whole lot of people but will feel differently this > time next year. Which is where we all were at one time or another. > > Does this make sense? Is it important? Probably not... :-) > > I think teaching safety and environment sensitivity is probably the most > important action we can take because what is going to impact us all the > most, imo, is regulation due to an increase of accidents and/or > environmental abuse of wilderness areas resulting from an increase of > ignorant kayakers on the water... which makes kayakers more visible to > those that are not kayakers (as well as other kayakers). I am greatful > to those that were enthusiastic about my getting into sea kayaking. How > could I possibly deny that for anyone else? > > ? :-) ? > > Cheers, > > Jackie > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ya know, you people who think your the only ones with the right to use the waterways need to get lives ... You sound just like the ones who own beachfront property and have hissy fits when someone has the audacity to walk on "their" sand. Of course the waterways are getting crowded, man keeps multiplying and people are going to go to the water, they are actually attracted to it (go figure) ... Better to have them brought into paddling with some sense of their surroundings, than on those floating chainsaws (jet skis) or some other fossel burning vehicle ... Sure, boycott training and education, that really sounds like the way to ensure saving the environment ... Just take your ball and go home, right? ... Grow up. And, by the way ... The American Heritage Dictionary defines recreation as: "Refreshment of one's mined or body after labor through diverting activity; play." Why do you guys paddle? Bob R. Creager Sarasota, FL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, I don't think that we can have too many kayakers. We definitely shouldn't be snubbing new kayakers and discouraging people from kayaking because some of us are worried about our sport becoming too common or our water ways no longer secluded. I'd much rather see a hundred kayakers on the water than a single power boat. At least kayakers are not creating noise pollution and spewing unburned fuel and oil into the water and air like a power boat. Let's welcome all who may want to paddle and be happy that they have interests similar to ours. Our sport doesn't have to be exclusive for us to enjoy it. Don't have the horrible attitude of some surfers who think they own a break and harass any outsiders who come. Let's share all the world has to offer us. Duane Strosaker Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The perfect accessory for a SUV that never leaves the pavement, a kayak that never leaves the roof rack. > >A kayaking friend once was asked by his boss how much his kayak cost. He >was considering getting one because they look good on top of the SUV. They >give the appearance of a youthful life style. Not that many of us are youths... > >rb > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Woody wrote: >Well, I guess you could look at it another way. If out of the next 10 (20, 50?) people who buy a kayak, one would have bought a power boat if (s)he would not have been introduced to kayaking, we're making progress in the right direction... <SNIP> Bring on the growth...< Amen brother! I guess I consider myself one of the converts; I grew up waterskiing and kneeboarding in high school--and thought it was pretty cool. Now I haven't been in a motorboat but 3 times in 7 years, and then only to go fishing with my father. I no longer have any intention of buying a boat "powered by hydrocarbons". Of course, I now am found more often on waterways less frequented by powerboats, being of a presence where formerly I was not. Of course, overall, my water-recreation as a whole is now causing a heckuva lot less pollution and impact on the earth. Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> <snip> > Jackie then said: > > > I guess this, like anything else, is relative. Those that started > > paddling decades ago feel a greater impact than those that started > > paddling say 10 years ago that see a greater impact than those that > > started paddling a year ago that see a greater impact than those that > > started a couple of months ago that think the waters are vast open > > spaces without a whole lot of people but will feel differently this > > time next year. Which is where we all were at one time or another. > > > > Does this make sense? Is it important? Probably not... :-) > > I think it is important, and it makes a lot of sense. Doug has raised an > existential question -- often the most important sort. Well, I guess I'm flattered as I really didn't consider my ramblings above as important. :-) I guess I'm not particularly worried about kayak traffic as far as numbers. No matter what space in time you choose, there will be those mourning the loss of the good old days. Would I give up what I have today for more space... the good old days? Nope. Not me. I'm pretty happy about my space and time. That's because I *know* I can't do anything about my time, but I can do plenty about my space if I choose. > Five years ago my 80-year-old father gave me a panoramic photo of the north > shore of La Jolla, CA, circa ... 1918! It looks like some remote parts of the > Baja coast: sere grassland with the odd oak or two, a straggle of telephone > poles along a lazy dirt track, and ... way off in the distance ... a couple > haciendas. The haciendas are the ancestors of wall-to-wall condos, > apartments, and resorteffluvium -- which now contaminate the La Jolla scene. > > Who changed that scene? We did. Just as we are changing the paddle scene in > Doug's back yard, and Jackie's, too. You may mourn that, but I do not. Ergo, my comment that all is relative. Those bare street scenes exist still but elsewhere. The population here in my backyard (the US) is shifting, not exploding in general. Unless you are talking about population explosions elsewhere which have nothing to do with kayaking and, therefore, nothing to do with this list? > Doug is trolling. He caught some of us. > > Got any **real** answers to your questions, Doug? Your beef is with numbers. Because answers which included educating are not to your satisfaction and don't cause paddlers to disappear doesn't make those answers not real. I'm not sure what you are going to do about the current population of paddlers. They are here. And some of us are genuinely not bugged by the kayak traffic we encounter. > The problem is there are too many of us. <snip> Where? Where you don't want them to be or everywhere? I don't share your angst. I don't think there are too many paddlers in general. I think it's quite possible to get away and paddle in solitude. > Anybody who has practical, realistic ways to promote protective enjoyment of > precious paddle spots should speak up. Heaven knows resource managers like > Anna Gajda of Gwaii Haanas struggle every day with this. We owe them our > ideas and support. Not simplistic answers or jingoistic phraseology. Like I said, because you may think it's simplistic or jingoistic, doesn't make the suggestion of education so. It is important enough to me to spend a lot of sleepless nights maintaining a forum where people can learn more about safe and responsible paddling as well as become more aware of their marine environment. I don't think the answer would be to shut down PaddleWise and hope everyone hangs up their paddle. I also don't see any point in fretting about how many people have or are going to pick up paddles. How do you propose to stop it? I find it arrogant for anyone to think they are within the manageable range while all who came after them should put away their paddles or stay out of their favorite paddling spots. I'm sure there are a number of those out there whose idea of limiting paddlers came sometime prior to when you and I took up paddling. > What are the answers? Education. > Limits? Regulations? Who decides the limits? You or me? > Restricted publicity? Censorship? You aren't really serious about this are you? No more trip reports, maybe? > Concentrating paddlers in one area (viz. Brokens) to avert crowding in another > (viz. the Deers)? More regulations? Who will you put in charge of that? How much money do you want to pay to run that program? > Guidebook authors with sensitive scruples? Who draws up the guidelines for that and by whose ethics? More censorship? > Fewer "dramatic" rescues widely bandied about the paddling community? How is that going to reduce the number of paddlers? Maybe by talking less about rescues and how to stay safe, some of those ignorant paddlers will decrease the paddling population by drowning? > Hook's out Doug ... chomp away. Nah, I'd rather try to educate. I find it doesn't hurt my teeth as much. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: >What are the answers? >Limits? I guess they work, (viz. Colorado River/Grand Canyon) but do you want to only be able to do a trip once every 15 years? I can't decide if I'd like to do 1 trip/15 years with fewer "neighbors" or a less solitary trip more often. >Restricted publicity? It only takes one "cook" to spoil the "pudding". You can keep quiet about your favorite spots, but how did you find it in the first place? Can someone else find out about it the same way? >Concentrating paddlers in one area (viz. Brokens) to avert crowding in >another (viz. the Deers)? This might be feasible; you could allow "unlimited" (term used very loosely) access to the Brokens and once-in-a-lifetime access to the Deers. >Guidebook authors with sensitive scruples? We should encourage this and respect authors who do write scrupulously, but there is always someone out there wanting to write the biggest, best guidebook showing the purtiest scenery, and there goes the "neighborhood". >Fewer "dramatic" rescues widely bandied about the paddling community? If we can keep sea kayaking from appearing as an adrenaline/extreme/ X-Games-type sport, then tales of dramatic rescues might actually have the reverse effect--keeping people away from pristine areas with long, exposed crossings and dangerous currents. No solid answers, but more questions! Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob R. Creager of Sarasota, FL wrote: >Ya know, you people who think your the only ones with the right to use the >waterways need to get lives <snip> Sure, boycott training and education, that really >sounds like the way to ensure saving the environment ... Just take your ball >and go home, right? ... Grow up. Yes, I've been paddling for eons, and miss the "good old days" when so few were out on the water and campsites plentiful and pristine. Why wouldn't I miss those times? However, that was not the underlying reason for my post and question(s). Some of us, here in BC and I'm sure in other localities, are really grappling with the issue of increased usage, large numbers of untrained paddlers practicing "easy kayakism", and increased use of rescue resources, etc. I simply thought there might be some intelligent discussion possible, or even just a poke to get people thinking about their impact and the future of the sport/lifestyle/recreational pursuit called sea kayaking. I know I have been doing just that, this summer during my sabatical from kayaking. Bob, your response to my post is understandable in light of your initial perception. Now that you understand, hopefully, a bit more of the original intent, perhaps you have something a little more intelligent to add (?). BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Ann E. Camp" <aecamp_at_televar.com> > I've been lurking and can't help myself jumping feet first into this one.... > If kayaking gets a critical mass (lots and lots), maybe it could get some > of the clout as the personal watercraft bunch???? I think not only is this a positive way of looking at it but a very valid point. It's pretty amazing what a large presence can do in local politics. Size often does matter. I can remember discussing issues with my local county rep on behalf of my homeowner's association... the first words out of his mouth were "How many homeowners belong to your association?" <snip> > Yeah - sometimes our favorite places end > up having more bodies that we'd prefer on the day we decide to visit - but > it's > really a case of is the glass half full or half empty. Spoken like the kayakers that got me turned onto this sport in the first place. :-) Cheers, Jackie (you can call me jingo, you can call me simple, but don't call me at 6:00 in the morning :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger responded to my post and Jackie's reply as such: <b snip> When I intertidally flush in a private cove on the coast of Vancouver Island, >my waste suffers the same fate Doug's does. He and I are >brothers-in-biological similarity. So is everyone else reading this. Yes, Dave. This is a big part of the reason for my post. Here in BC we have been trying to initiate a BC Marine Trail, much like you have in Washington/Oregon. A series of campsites and outhouses, while perhaps distracting from a wilderness experience, would solve some of the problems. Proper disposal of humane waste (and other litter sources) is still something a lot of us struggle with to do correctly, 100% of the time. But, while kayakers are all behind the trail concept, little real help is emerging. I've tried pushing here in BC, but encounter a lot of apathy. >Doug is trolling. He caught some of us. I don't get it Dave. Trolling? I thought paddlewise was a place to exchange ideas. No? Unless you mean I baited the hook with some fairly stern statements. Caught you anyway. What I really wanted to catch was a sense of where people are at on this issue. I do think paddlewise is a great resource to help us wrestle with these types of issues. Jackie has something real going on here which may prove invaluable in the coming years. >Got any **real** answers to your questions, Doug? Sorry, bit slow here. Do you mean, do I have answers? I wasn't trying to land a big fish or nothing here. I just know there is a wealth of intelligence out there in paddlewise land (my IQ is somewhat limited, sort of a brawn over brains thing). I'm just trying to dilate the truth a bit, and deliver a few answers - and mix a few metaphors :-) <snip> Anybody who has practical, realistic ways to promote protective enjoyment of >precious paddle spots should speak up. Heaven knows resource managers like >Anna Gajda of Gwaii Haanas struggle every day with this. We owe them our >ideas and support. Not simplistic answers or jingoistic phraseology. >What are the answers? Limits? Restricted publicity? Concentrating paddlers in one area >(viz. Brokens) to avert crowding in another (viz. the Deers)? Guidebook authors with >sensitive scruples? Okay, now were talking Dave. Way to go, big guy! Thank you. >Fewer "dramatic" rescues widely bandied about the paddling community? Do you mean my "dramatic rescue" Dave? I don't think it matters much in the paddling community, other than there are lessons to be learned which come out in due process and are often beneficial to all. The public, that's a little different, and such dramas not engender or foster that much good will, though in our case the Coast Guard did say that we were just the tip of the rescue iceberg: that most paddlers plucked out of the water had little training, little in the way of primary or adjunctive rescue/distress equipment; and that they appreciated paddlers like us that are well prepared and trained. >Hook's out Doug ... chomp away. I know some people don't like Sea Kayaker Magazine, for whatever reason. I've recently started to contribute experiences, safety articles, rescue strategy articles, etc, rather than sit back on my duff and not support them like I was previously. I write for Wavelength, never taking money from them, rather donating it to an environmental cause. I support my local kayak club, both morally, practically, and with as much time as I can fit in with family duties. I've taken the summer off from paddling to think things through. I'm encouraging my children toward an environmental ethic and one of tolerance toward other people and ways of thinking - not easy to do in a Baptist church. And, participating in Paddlewise. I see there are some more responses awaiting to be opened; I have faith there are some good ones. Appreciate you Dave. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
uhm... me commenting on my comment... 8-} > You may mourn that, but I do not. Ergo, my comment that all is relative. > Those bare street scenes exist still but elsewhere. The population here > in my backyard (the US) is shifting, not exploding in general. I should clarify this as the birth rate is declining in the US, not exploding and some populations are shifting from rural settings that are creating virtual ghost towns with empty streets as the the young leave for the big cities. Maybe I've just been really fortunate, but I've never had a problem finding solitude when I wanted it. And I do enjoy solitude. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote; > >I guess this, like anything else, is relative. Those that started >paddling decades ago feel a greater impact than those that started >paddling say 10 years ago that see a greater impact than those that >started paddling a year ago that see a greater impact than those that >started a couple of months ago that think the waters are vast open >spaces without a whole lot of people but will feel differently this >time next year. Which is where we all were at one time or another. > >Does this make sense? Is it important? Probably not... :-) Yes, it makes sense. Years ago when we moved to Canada the town of Oakville seemed almost idyllic. Developers advertised it as such and soon the place was just another bedroom community but with more class. The new people thought the town was idyllic, the older residents thought it was over run. The perception of over use seems relative to previous experience. > >I think teaching safety and environment sensitivity is probably the most >important action we can take because what is going to impact us all the >most, imo, is regulation due to an increase of accidents and/or >environmental abuse of wilderness areas resulting from an increase of >ignorant kayakers on the water... which makes kayakers more visible to >those that are not kayakers (as well as other kayakers). I am greatful >to those that were enthusiastic about my getting into sea kayaking. How >could I possibly deny that for anyone else? Another story (in a story telling mood). After we moved north to escape Oakville's hordes I began paddling in an area just west of where I live. I found gorgeous campsites with flowers growing out of the old firepits, portages that one had to follow carefully because they had grown over so heavily, no garbage, and no people. After a few years I felt badly about hoarding this discovery all to myself so I wrote an article in my canoe club newsletter about it. The next year I ran into people and found paper etc. in fire pits. Later some one I had told about the area wrote an article for a national magazine. Well, you can imagine what happened. I don't go back much anymore. Found a new forgotten area that takes too much effort to get into (Bushwacking, long unmarked trails) I haven't told anyone about it and only go back solo. Sad that this kind of thing happens. I guess I don't trust people to take care of things anymore. You can teach a cat to use a litter pan but apparently you can't teach humans to carry their litter out. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Yes, it makes sense. Years ago when we moved to Canada the town of Oakville > seemed almost idyllic. Developers advertised it as such and soon the place > was just another bedroom community but with more class. The new people > thought the town was idyllic, the older residents thought it was over run. > The perception of over use seems relative to previous experience. Yes, exactly. New arrivals will accept an area at the current level of development while many who knew it before will bemoan what was lost. I see an unstopable trend of development. People like to "improve" things, which usually menas development. As old folks retire we loose their sense of what was and is worth preserving. This creaping perception allows creaping development. Increase of use by new users looks inevitable to me. Population is growing AND awareness of outdoor persuits is growing. There are going to be more kayakers paddling around, how can the resources accomodate them? Well: 1. Different levels of development. Users spread themselves over a continum of how much isolation they seak. Those that want more are often willing to go to greater effort to find it. Let the near by places be developed to handle a larger number and let the remotness of a place keep it's numbers low. Resist improving access to remote places: once they stop being remote, they will be more visited. Those that don't mind crowds (and have less time) will go to the places that are easy to get to. Those that do mind crowds will make the effort to get away from them. 2. Quota (permit) systems. Each area has an appropriate level of use that it can sustain, weather it be intended as high or low use. Limiting factors are number of camp sites, ability to dispose of human waste, and environmental impact. Each area has a natural carring capaciy based on those factors. When the demand for an area is higher than the area can sustain then you either have to develop it more or restrict access by a quota system. Usually a combination of both. This is very contentious, but failure to do so results in areas being trampled to death. 3. Creation of new areas. This is what is going to save us. As more people join sport the demand increases. Both easy access/high use and remote/low use areas must be added. There are water trails associations in Washington State and Brittish Columbia. The little I know about them gives me a positive impression about what they are doing. The new guide to Pacific North West destinations does an execlent job of encouraging proper use of areas. As always our world is the product of individual actions. Things that individuals can do: 1. Join your local water trails association and support their work. 2. Be a friendly kayaker so that private land owners don't start restricting access. 3. Pratice low impact camping. Leave no trace of fires, leave no trash, clean up your tent site, etc. Leave places looking less visited than when you arrived. 4. Contact athorities and understand how to use an area well. 5. Educate others. I think that crowding and quota systems are an inevitable part of our future. It is not the end of the world: those places I visit with good quota systems really have been preserved. I don't get to go there as often, but when i do is much more special. Tom Unger Seattle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have mixed feelings about the increase in numbers of paddlers, but mostly I'm happy to see it happening. We - all Americans - badly need ways to get in touch with the natural environment. Motorboating and jet-skiing don't do this for us. Sailing gets much closer to "real life". We also need to exercise more. We need ways to get in touch with other people too - really get in touch with them, rather than brush by them at the supermarket or on the bus. Done properly, kayaking usually requires some instruction; it's also possible to grow in the sport much more rapidly if you're in frequent touch with others who share an interest in paddling - as with this online group, or with any local kayaking club. Even a misanthrope (that word is a refugee from another thread) like me makes friends through kayaking. The more people who paddle, up to a point, the more opportunities there are to make friends. And of course paddling alongside someone for several hours at a time encourages a certain amount of bonding. My major misgiving about the increase in numbers of kayakers is the danger it could pose to wildlife and to the land. That might come mostly from the camping aspect of the sport, but as we all know, just paddling in an area where other animals live effects them adversely. The saving grace, if there is one, may be that a kayak is (usually) less intrusive and does less damage than an outboard motorboat. And those who choose to paddle rather than burn hydrocarbons for their outdoor experience are likely to be more aware of the potential damage they do, and thus are likely to do less damage. Finally, I think there's a saturation point which will be reached fairly soon. For better or worse, these things are partly fads - interest in an activity waxes and wanes, stabilizes at a certain level. Not everyone has the will or the persistence to enter and stay with a sport which burns calories at a high rate. I think Woody is on to something here - an awful lot of those shiny new boats which are bought now are going to be the exercise bicycles and stary climbers of the future. They'll sit in someone's garage until the *next* milennium. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/23/99 9:28:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: << Yes, I've been paddling for eons, and miss the "good old days" when so few were out on the water and campsites plentiful and pristine. >> I grew up on the beaches of sunny Southern California listening to my fathers stories of "the good old days," when he was growing up on the very same beaches, working as a lifeguard, and hunting in the surrounding hills. I couldn't imagine what it must have been like to have had so much freedom around here. Nowadays I find myself telling my own kids very similar stories about my "good old days" on the beaches and the surrounding countryside. I remind them that these days are their "good old days" of which they will someday be telling their kids about, so they should take notes and enjoy them. Life goes on -- deal with it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> >Does anyone think >there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, >recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? >Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop >teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking >community, yet? > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd A few disconnected thoughts on "sea kayak saturation": I work for an outdoor retailer which sells sea-kayaks and paddling gear, among lots of other stuff. Since part of my living comes indirectly from the popularity of sea-kayaking, I'm certainly not going to adopt a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards kayak tour operators. One aspect of the popularity of sea-kayaking that hasn't been mentioned is the benefit we all receive in the increased options available in kayaks and kayaking gear. Sure, you could argue that it's overkill and that everyone should paddle the same boat and wear the same gear, but judging from the lively debates on Paddlewise, most of us like being able to choose from hard-shell or folding, wide-beam or Greenland, ruddered or unruddered, feathered or unfeathered, wetsuits or drysuits, paddlefloats or s******s, etc. Plus we can buy most of the above in red, neon green, or paisley, which we couldn't do unless there was a large enough market to support a variety of manufacturers and retailers. A kayak unquestionably has a smaller "environmental footprint", both in its construction and its operation, than say, a Pestilent Water Craft or a power boat, but probably not as small an effect as many imagine. I've visited a few (hard-shell) kayak plants in my time, and they range from Dickensian "dark satanic mills" to modern, well-ventilated plants. But even in the best of them, your nose and lungs will tell you that a witch's brew of chemicals is being used. I've never been to the plants where they coat the fabrics used for folding boats, but I can't believe they're utterly benign either. And though responsible kayakers minimise their impact on the immediate areas in which they travel, this minimum impact is to a certain extent being subsidised by impacts made elsewhere: we paddle a carbohydrate-powered craft, but in many cases we bring it to the put-in via hydrocarbon-powered means; we carefully eschew a campfire, but do so by using a petroleum-fuelled stove; we don't build a lean-to, or cut tree boughs for our beds, because we have high-tech tents and spiffy inflatable mats - all of which were made somewhere, with some effect on the environment. So am I saying we should all give kayaking up, and wear hair shirts? No - I find my polyester fleece top a lot less itchy, thank you. But let's not pretend we have no effect on the environment - just less than many others. Regarding concerns that the newest generation of kayakers - regarded as arrivistes and dilettantes by many of the "old salts" - will trash all the good kayaking spots. Read or re-read "The Tragedy of the Commons". Much as I enjoy the independent and solitary aspects of sea-kayaking, it appears we may have to get organised and take "ownership of" - in the sense of "responsibility for", not merely "rights to" - a lot of public lands. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey, check out the postings for "Saturation Point." These are exactly the sort of responses that I was hoping for with the "Yum, Yum Ethics of a Guide" thread. This is an issue that we all encounter regionally, but until now, we have not been afforded a forum of this magnitude. Bruce Whole Earth Outfitters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been reading the responses to these questions with interest and have been thinking about how to respond. Being a newbie I suppose I am guilty of being part of the growth of the sport. I "join" in this sport because of my love of nature and of being outdoors and certainly without any intent on ruining the experience for anyone else. However, I do know how it feels to have "my sport" over-run. Back in the day (a decade ago) when I started mtn biking with a friend of mine we had the run of all of trails. If on the rare occasion we came across other bikers we'd all stop and converse. There was a camaraderie between the few people pedaling around in the woods. Races were small and laid back with many people camping together the night before and swapping stories over a few beers. During the race people were polite and talkative. After the race it was common to have a BBQ and a keg. So where has this sport progressed? With so many people on the trails, land owners are fearing lawsuits so they post their land and thus the trails are disappearing. Attitudes on the trail are like those found on a city sidewalk. And at the races (that I no longer attend) the masses of people focus more on the competition and comparing their expensive steeds than the camaraderie. And as far as Winter sports go, I grew up in a small ski town and watched how the crowds grew and grew over the years. Now traffic is so bad that the locals stay home during the weekend so as not to get caught up in all the traffic and rude tourists. The once secret powder runs are all tracked out by 10:00 AM and the trails are so crowded by 11:00 I'm forced to leave or risk being hit from behind by the crazies. I certainly don't have any answers to the questions below, but I share the concern. Personally I've never looked down upon anyone getting into "my sport" as long as they had the right attitude. I've shown people the trails and the secret powder runs because they shared my enthusiasm and I am certainly grateful to those who taught me. So try not to be hard on all the newbies - we all had to start somewhere. But if you want to keep a couple of spots secret I won't blame you. My 2 cents...... Joe -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd [mailto:dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 8:34 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest in his boats. I said that was "too bad". "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking community, yet? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/24/99 2:17:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, skerries_at_hotmail.com writes: << I've visited a few (hard-shell) kayak plants in my time, and they range from Dickensian "dark satanic mills" to modern, well-ventilated plants. But even in the best of them, your nose and lungs will tell you that a witch's brew of chemicals is being used >> Good points, Philip, but in defense of the industry let me add that I see various manufacturers advertising that their plastic boats are recyclable. Re the Saturation Point, my comment is: Bottom line: EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION. Outfitters, paddling clubs, individual paddlers, authors and magazine publishers can spread the holy word and teach environment-friendly practices. Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I kayak on the island of Elba, Italy about once a year. Elba has been populated since Etruscan times, around 800 BC. Every acre has been affected by people and their enterprises, yet it's still a beautiful place to paddle. So, for me, it offers a bit of guilt-free paddling. No marine mammals to disturb (unless you count sunbathers). No creature there that's never seen a human. Yet, there are national parks with wild sheep, and native plants and over 45 kinds of wild orchids. It astounds me. Don't misinterpret me, please. I'm not saying human impact in pristine places is trivial, I'm saying there are some damn nice places to paddle where your impact is overwhelmed by the greater footprint of development. Barbara Kossy south of San Francisco Barbara Kossy Sea Kayak Italy http://www.seakayakitaly.com bkossy_at_igc.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Philip, now that you have awakened me to the peripheral pollution, I'll have to revert to my original plan. Naked coed swim trips down the gator infested backwaters of Florida. Don't worry, I'll be staying away from those COLD NW rivers. Bruce WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, I do lament the old days, but that is not what my original post is about. I was necessarily provocative to get some responses going. I for one, am "dealing with it", as you so well put it. But in dealing with the implications of the huge groundswell of new paddlers, in particular with sea kayaking, all kids of issues are reaching boiling point here in BC -- with respect to coastal campsite use by recreational users vs commercial interests, the government wanting to ensure that outfitters offer patrons quality, safe experiences, and ensuring new paddlers enshrine an environmental ethic. So, thanks for letting me backpaddle a bit. I guess it will be funny in a few more decades when were both dead and gone, and our children are on the beach with their kids, reminiscing about the good old days when only 50 kayakers used to land at this beach. :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd At 09:34 AM 9/24/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/23/99 9:28:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: > ><< Yes, I've been paddling for eons, and miss the "good old days" when so few > were out on the water and campsites plentiful and pristine. >> > > I grew up on the beaches of sunny Southern California listening to my >fathers stories of "the good old days," when he was growing up on the very >same beaches, working as a lifeguard, and hunting in the surrounding hills. I >couldn't imagine what it must have been like to have had so much freedom >around here. Nowadays I find myself telling my own kids very similar stories >about my "good old days" on the beaches and the surrounding countryside. I >remind them that these days are their "good old days" of which they will >someday be telling their kids about, so they should take notes and enjoy >them. Life goes on -- deal with it. > >Scott >So.Cal. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:13 PM 9/24/99 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Scott, >I do lament the old days, I guess it >will be funny in a few more decades when were both dead and gone, and our >children are on the beach with their kids, reminiscing about the good old >days when only 50 kayakers used to land at this beach. :-) > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd > Hey now wait a minute some of yalls good old days were before some of us got into paddling so where do you draw the line? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have not snipped Richards post below, in case anyone missed it. Some of you may be "saturated" with this thread by now, but I just wanted to thank Richard for his thoughtful words. As for Richard's wisdom, I shall attempt to incorporate it into my thinking more fully. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd At 10:37 PM 9/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >In my area, northern Ontario, land use is quite an issue. In short, unless a >serious effort is made, land gets logged over and water gets dammed up. Road >access brings development of various types. It takes a great deal of work by a >great many people to protect wilderness. Where do we find these people? Among >others, we draw on outdoor recreation oriented groups -- hikers, birders, >paddlers, climbers, etc. I submit that there is a direct correlation between >interest in paddling and interest in wilderness protection. Obviously not all >paddlers are environmentalists, but many are. More importantly, many people >become environmentalists after their awareness of environmental issues has been >raised through their participation in paddling. > >As pertains to sea kayaking in particular, let's take a look at Lake Superior >in the Thunder Bay, Nipigon, Rossport, Terrace Bay shoreline area. Most of it >is pristine, and it is an international destination for sea kayakers. Much of >it is being designated as a National Marine Conservation Area. Without paddler >involvement in the designation process, this probably would not have happened >at all, and certainly would not have encompassed as great an area as is >expected to be covered. Yes, this will lead to even more paddlers, opening up >the problem of the area being loved to death, but this is a far easier problem >to deal with than the pressing problem of resource extraction and development. >It is relatively easy to institute a permit system when compared against >stopping the logging industry or the mining industry. > >We live in an era of extinction -- right up there along with the top half dozen >historic extinctions, including the Cretaceous, Permian, Ordovician, Devonian, >Triassic, and Pleistocene. The overall extinction rate is somewhere about a >hundred times over background, and in specific areas (e.g. invertebrates in >tropical rainforests) the rate is about a thousand times over background. >Protecting significantly sized tracts of land, and corridors between these >tracts, will help slow the extinction rate. Doing this requires public >recognition of the problem, and public participation in the solutions. How do >we educate people as to these problems and then motivate them to act? One way, >among many, is through participation in paddling. Think of paddling as an >entry point into environmental awareness and activity. The more people who >flow through entry points into the world of environmental awareness and >activity, the better chance we have in slowing the extinction rate. > >Yes, it is theoretically possible for paddlers to love an area to death, but >before backing off on the promotion of paddlesports, lets take a cold hard look >at both where the most devastating environmental impacts are coming from and >where the solutions are coming from. Yes, whale watching in the St. Lawrence >has been associated with negative impacts on the whales, but this is trivial >compared to what pollution in the seaway has done to the whale populations, and >public interest in protecting these whales has gone a long way toward reducing >levels of pollution. Yes, paddling has had a negative effect on parts of the >Colorado in the Grand Canyon, but without public activism the canyon was >scheduled to have been dammed over. Yes, hiking in Yellowstone has slightly >affected Grizzly populations, but the problem is insignificant when compared to >the long term impact due to lack of corridors outside the park, and only public >interest will help change this. And back here in northern Ontario? Yes, sea >kayakers can have a negative impact on caribou breeding grounds (e.g. islands >at the south end of Pukaskwa, a national park on the north shore of Superior >just to the east of the proposed National Marine Conservation Area). Yes, >hikers and shoreline campers can have an impact on cougar populations (which >may be extinct locally, though there are occasional unconfirmed sightings). >But these impacts are easily dealt with through limiting access where >necessary. More importantly, these impacts are trivial compared to the impact >of logging on a massive scale over millions of hectares. If promoting paddling >can help people become aware of and involved in helping the environment, then >let's keep on promoting. > >Let's promote paddling hand in hand with promoting the environment. Let's >educate new paddlers as to the impact they are making in their activities, and >then broaden this out to education on the primary impacts on species isolation >and extinction, namely massive land use changes. As environmentalists, >paddling offers a powerful tool for us to capture people's hearts and minds. >Let's not miss the boat. > >Cheers, >Richard Culpeper >Environment North > > > >Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales >> this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest >> in his boats. I said that was "too bad". >> >> "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" >> >> I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think >> there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, >> recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? >> Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop >> teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking >> community, yet? >> >> BC'in Ya >> Doug Lloyd >> *************************************************************************** >> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >> *************************************************************************** > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Unger <unger_at_tumtum.com> <SNIP. > >Increase of use by new users looks inevitable to me. Population is >growing AND awareness of outdoor persuits is growing. There are going >to be more kayakers paddling around, how can the resources accomodate >them? Well: Very uncomfortably > > >1. Different levels of development. Users spread themselves over a >continum of how much isolation they seak. Those that want more are >often willing to Should read: "must now" or "desparate enough" rather than "often willing" >go to greater effort to find it. Let the near by >places be developed to handle a larger number and let the remotness of a >place keep it's numbers low. Resist improving access to remote places: >once they stop being remote, they will be more visited. The arguement could (and probably will) be made that improving access to remoter areas will help to disperse the crowds more widely that are damaging nearby ones. >Those that >don't mind crowds (and have less time) will go to the places that are >easy to get to. Those that do mind crowds will make the effort to get >away from them. Those who do mind crowds and don't have time are SOOL. > >2. Quota (permit) systems. Each area has an appropriate level of use >that it can sustain, weather it be intended as high or low use. >Limiting factors are number of camp sites, ability to dispose of human >waste, and environmental impact. Each area has a natural carring >capaciy based on those factors. When the demand for an area is higher >than the area can sustain then you either have to develop it more or >restrict access by a quota system. Usually a combination of both. This >is very contentious, but failure to do so results in areas being >trampled to death. Bring on the beaurocrats! So the crowds kill it one way or the other, maybe if we all tried to restrain ourselves when (or from) describing our sport to the uninitiated less of them would get sold on it (and end up loving it to death). > >3. Creation of new areas. This is what is going to save us. As more >people join sport the demand increases. Both easy access/high use and >remote/low use areas must be added. Just where are these new areas that are going to save us coming from? Maybe we should pray to the Creator to create some more new areas for us. Or we could improve access to more remote areas. That's it! That will save us. We're Toast! > > > >There are water trails associations in Washington State and Brittish >Columbia. The little I know about them gives me a positive impression >about what they are doing. Learn more and your impession may change like mine has. It looks to me that they are selling out the WILDerness that once existed and advertising it as a destination to travel to around the whole damn country. Rather than create new campsites (the promise) they have searched out and publicized the old ones some of which had been "underutilized". I sure miss those formerly "underutilized" campsites. Thanks Washington Watertrails. A (reformed) former president of that organization once apologized to me for what he had helped to do. I feel guilty for giving them $100 seed money to get started. The original idea that suckered me in was to discover new campsite possibilities and work to create them. So far mostly the obscure old sites have just been given national publicity, attracting a far wider participation to love it to death. The Eagles sang it: "Call someplace paradise and kiss it goodbye." >The new guide to Pacific North West >destinations does an execlent job of encouraging proper use of areas. And so did all the hiking guides that helped ruin backpacking for me 20 years ago. There used to be freedom in the once empty WILDerness now there are permit systems and user fees. I escaped to the sea and found the WILDerness again kayaking. Now its Deja vu time. > > >As always our world is the product of individual actions. Things that >individuals can do: > >1. Join your local water trails association and support their work. Subvert them and let them know the damage they are causing. Refuse to buy their annual permit--that they would like to make you think is required for all sights when (I think) it is required only in State Park watertrails sites. > >2. Be a friendly kayaker so that private land owners don't start >restricting access. A little late for that around here. It used to be you could launch a kayak from near all four ferry terminals in the San Juans and the locals viewed you as an interesting curiousity. Friday Harbor is the only access left and I'm sure there are groups of locals trying to get it closed to launching kayaks too just like they did with the other three. The public beach you have every right to land on they have treated as their private beaches for years. They are not likely to welcome your intrusion however friendly you are. Say can I use your toilet my bladder is about to burst? > >3. Pratice low impact camping. Leave no trace of fires, leave no trash, >clean up your tent site, etc. >Leave places looking less visited than when you arrived. Arrive after dark and leave before dawn and maybe the AUTHORITIES will never figure out where you stayed:~) > >4. Contact athorities and understand how to use an area well. I prefer to avoid contact with the AUTHORITIES. >5. Educate others. Tell them kayaking sucks and you are most likely going to give it up because the risks to your life, pocketbook, health, bladder and joints are just too great. > > >I think that crowding and quota systems are an inevitable part of our >future. It is not the end of the world: Just the end of one of the major reasons I go kayaking. >those places I visit with good >quota systems really have been preserved. I don't get to go there as >often, but when i do is much more special. Sanitized, ranger infested, ex-WILDerness is not particularly what I want to visit. "We have met the enemy and it is us". To those into recuiting more environmentalists by introducing them to paddling I'm reminded of the logic of "we had to destroy the village to save it" (from communism I imagine) in Vietnam. My advise to kayakers in areas that haven't suffered the above fates yet is to SHUT UP about the joys of kayaking or even actively discourage participation by others. Whatever you do don't advertise your favorite places and if you do take a special friend swear them to secrecy. Treat kayaking like you should treat a tiny mountain lake with great fishing for huge trout (that you would like to see stay that way). SHUT UP ABOUT IT! Yes, I design and sell kayaks to earn a living but before you call me a hypocrite you should know that we do not promote the sport (as one might reasonably assume it would be in our interest to do). This is one reason we were not at the Symposium in Port Townsend (some on this list complained about that). We refuse to join the Trade Association (TAPS) and thereby support their "promotion of the sport to sell more kayaks, classes and tours" agenda. Ironically I helped start the Trade Association of Sea Kayaking as it seemed we had mutual interests in improving access to insurance and improving the kayak shipping situation. I originally wrote our "Kayak Safety" manual for the trade association but quickly learned the majority were not as interested in promoting safety as in getting a short handout to help them limit their liability should an accident happen. Not only did the issues I was interested in not get resolved by organizing but the focus of the group became almost exclusively on "Promoting the Sport", an agenda I didn't share even then--having seen close up what happened to backpacking. They certainly have succeeded at promotion. We quickly lost interest and eventually withdrew our name (with great difficulty) as a member even though we had to pay the association dues and other fees to be able to demo kayaks at the symposium (but we were refused any of the benefits of membership to try to force us to again be listed as a member). Later we refused to support their agenda financially as well and so have had to give up our companies commercial participation in their symposiums. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: [snipped: huge contribution re: crowding, overuse, and the negative aspects of Water Trails, and guidebooks, and TAPS. Matt, you sound like the Northwest shadow of Edward Abbey!] My guts agree with much of what Matt said. Like Matt, I have "been there" over the last 30 years as hiking guidebooks delineated my "favorite" spots in the Cascades and Olympics of Washington State. I am also on the sidelines as a Water Trail is proposed for passage through my home paddling area. (The signs are up, but essentially *none* of the infrastructure -- ironic, no?) My *head* disagrees: I believe (as Thomas Unger stated) population pressures will lead to most of what Matt decries *even if the guidebooks were not written,* and *even if there were no "Water Trails".* We really do not have the choice my guts might want (publicize and promote no aspect of paddling; shun newbies; obfuscate trip descriptions; etc.). We can *not* reverse time and go back to the days when there were fewer paddlers. We *must* deal with the growing paddling population. To ignore the growth is folly. I won't disagree with Matt's appraisal of the net effect of the implementation of the Marine Trail in Puget Sound. It sounds like what I am afraid will happen in my home paddling area: many of the funky "undeveloped" spots which accomodate the small numbers of existing paddlers will get "recognized" and then overrun by the expanded paddling population. Does anybody see a way out of this dilemma? I am concerned that increased human use of waterways (just from the human waste angle) unfortunately mandates increased development of near-water areas. I do not like dodging poop! I think the key is how we manage what we have. And, like it or not, that means regulations and quotas. I don't like it, but I do not have a better answer. Yeah, I will always keep close to my chest a few isolated spots, but it would be naive to think they will be isolated forever. And, Matt, I'm not tellin' you where they are, either! <G> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<troll mode on> To relieve overcrowding pressure caused by paddlers, I have a better idea than not publishing guide books, discouraging newbies and all the other suggestions thrown about to discourage the sport: How about stopping (voluntarily or involuntarily) the people who have been kayaking for many years from visiting these places? After all, they've been there countless times and have had ample opportunity to soak it all in, yet as others try to enjoy the same they want to restrict access and have it all to themselves. Seems to me a reduction in paddlers can come from any end of the experience scale. Maybe no one should be allowed to have more than 5 years of paddling experience. If you do, sell your boat and stay home. Woody </troll mode off> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >1. Different levels of development. Users spread themselves over a > >continum of how much isolation they seak. Those that want more are > >often willing to > > Should read: "must now" or "desparate enough" rather than "often willing" The problem is that yall are all trying to see the same, well advertized, spots. This cave, that rock formation, that historic landmark. The ocean is a vast domain, and impossibly wild in every respect. Yes there are, and always will be, crowds around "Old Faithful" like features, but why do you want to go there more than once? > A little late for that around here. It used to be you could launch a kayak > from near all four ferry terminals in the San Juans and the locals viewed > you as an interesting curiousity. Friday Harbor is the only access left > and I'm sure there are groups of locals trying to get it closed to > launching kayaks too just like they did with the other three. The public > beach you have every right to land on they have treated as their private > beaches for years. They are not likely to welcome your intrusion however > friendly you are. Say can I use your toilet my bladder is about to burst? > > >3. Pratice low impact camping. Leave no trace of fires, leave no > trash, >clean up your tent site, etc. >Leave places looking less visited > than when you arrived. This is a little Northwest specific, wouldn't you say. In Texas for instance, all beaches are public, and if a storm erodes the beach up to some landowners house, they loose the house to the state. Some beaches are more difficult to access, but they are all public, but at least half of the coast has easy drive on access, if you know how to drive on soft sand. Also, why would you bother a property owner by asking him to make his homes restroom a public facility? Just bring a bag or bottle to relieve yourself, or for the more flexibly inclined, put some distance between you and others and pee over the side. > Arrive after dark and leave before dawn and maybe the AUTHORITIES will > never figure out where you stayed:~) > >4. Contact athorities and > understand how to use an area well. > > I prefer to avoid contact with the AUTHORITIES. They do seem to be a bit paranoid, at least from accounts I've heard here. Personally, I've never even been approached by a warden or sheriff while kayaking. I think they just assume they'll be wasting time checking an adult flyfisherman floating in a kayak. > Tell them kayaking sucks and you are most likely going to give it up > because the risks to your life, pocketbook, health, bladder and joints are > just too great. > > >I think that crowding and quota systems are an > inevitable part of our >future. It is not the end of the world: > > Just the end of one of the major reasons I go kayaking. Ditch the quota/permit idea. Kayaks are vessels just like any other. I usually prefer to use the boat ramp system just like everyone else. Nice cement bottom to stand on as I drop my tail into the cockpit, oh so easy. You want solitude, a half mile into the flats, or three miles offshore in winter will get you there almost every time. > >those places I visit with good > >quota systems really have been preserved. I don't get to go there as > >often, but when i do is much more special. > > Sanitized, ranger infested, ex-WILDerness is not particularly what I want > to visit. I like to think of such places, like I do the National Park system. They are essentially open air zoos for the masses. I guage this by the reaction of supposed wild animals. What should a wild animal do when it sees a 200lb predator closing in on it? Fight or flight. What do they do in National Parks? Ogle and beg, just like in the zoo. What do they do in Gila Wilderness area? Run like h*** to get out of Dodge. 1.Zoo. 2.Wilderness. Simple. Any place you see a 50 lb seal gaze at you like the food distributor, you know you aren't in wilderness, no matter what the rocks look like. Any place that they scatter from once they get a good look at you, is wilderness. > My advise to kayakers in areas that haven't suffered the above fates yet > is to SHUT UP about the joys of kayaking or even actively discourage > participation by others. Whatever you do don't advertise your favorite > places and if you do take a special friend swear them to secrecy. Treat > kayaking like you should treat a tiny mountain lake with great fishing for > huge trout (that you would like to see stay that way). SHUT UP ABOUT IT! While this might be true of a small mountain lake, it can hardly be true of the ocean. > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com Maybe yall should shift your focus away from the Pacific Northwest. Maybe Texas? Unlimited access, year round paddling, excellent fishing, more birds than you could possibly imagine...... Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > Should read: "must now" or "desparate enough" rather than "often willing" Well, yea. You're one of the old folks who are here to remind us of what was lost. > The arguement could (and probably will) be made that improving access to > remoter areas will help to disperse the crowds more widely that are damaging > nearby ones. Yep, and if we do that we'll end up with a uniformly saturated backcountry. I've sat through the same debate about land wilderness. Hopefully people will realize that as long as we keep reproducing we can't expect to find isolation in our own back yard. Develop the local areas for heavy use and preseve what we can of the wilderness. Except for the political difficulties now, I think it would be great to develop the San Juans to the walls with kayakers SO THEY DON'T BOTHER going any further afield. And NOT improve access to what is remove. Unfortunately, every time someone in rural areas tries to make a living providing access they are pushing back the boundaries of the wilderness. [In recent years I've actually managed to get into country where I see more signes of wild life than I do of people. This August I did an 8 day backcountry traverse near glaicer peak and didn't see any other parties except for the first and last days. We camped as several beauitiful lakes and didn't see any signs that other people had camped there. Certinaly not what you got to see 20 years ago. Nor will it last. If the forest service ever gets funding for trail develpment these places will disapear.] > >3. Creation of new areas. This is what is going to save us. As more > >people join sport the demand increases. Both easy access/high use and > >remote/low use areas must be added. > > Just where are these new areas that are going to save us coming from? Maybe > we should pray to the Creator to create some more new areas for us. Or we > could improve access to more remote areas. That's it! That will save us. > > We're Toast! I agree with you. When I think of what the future holds I get depressed. I like to give some practicle suggestions rather than whining about what is happening, but I don't have much hope for people's ability to take care of the wilderness. Through individual actions and selifshness we will destroy it. I know there is no hope because I see the selfishness in myself. I love the wilderness, I go visit it, and I see that my actions have impact. Even though, I will not stop visiting. I try to live a pure life, but I also want to enjoy my life, so I'm not as pure as I think I should be. Everyone finds some point of compromise at which they are comfortable. Unfortnately, I think that most people are significantly less aware and have significantly greater impact. I didn't think much about weather John's reference to "The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement" was a joke or not, but I find that my sentiments are not too far off. I don't think that the whole human race has to go, just the majority. But it has to be voluntary. I'm no one to tell people what to do. Neither to not have children or to not buy a kayak and go out into the wilderness. (Though if I was elected I would 1. Ban private ownership of automobiles and 2. Ban all advertising.) I don't see much hope for my children (good thing I don't and won't have any). Best we can do is slow the deterioration so I can get out on some good trips while I'm still healthy. I have here a quote from "The Great Deep" by James Hamilton-Paterson. This comes from a latter chapter called "Fishing and Loss". It's longish, but he says it very well. While endangered species embody poignant reminders of our own mortality, it is the vanishing of entire landscapes that upsets us most. There is nowhere left to turn for solace and with which to re-create the continuity of our lives. Sights, smells and sounds may all vanish. I pretend not to mourn the wild profusion of the natty yellow-and-black striped caterpillars of the cinnabar moth which once stripped to the bone the clumps of groundsel to be found on every patch of wasteland in southern Britain. Likewise I miss the sheer variety of other butterflies and moths (including many rare species) which appeared even in the most suburban garden as late as the early sixties. One knew where Yellow and Red Underwinds would be, and when in May to look for the Angle Shades moth just after it had hatched and its colors were at their freshest. The subtlest peach and brown and olive tints seemed to hover a fraction above the surface of its wings as if pure color stood off its scales by the thickness of dust, glowing and velvety. It now seems both important and hopeless to wish for other people such pleasure and ravishment, whether of looking at moths or being frisked around by dolphins. It is true that after-comers can never know exactly what they have missed; but missing things in our own lifetimes sets in motion the inarticulate hollowings of loss, and in turn we apprehend how quickly ordinary beauty is being made to vanish as if the hand of man held a wand whose touch made some things disappear for good and turned all the rest to lead. Each generation adapts to an impoverished world, but for the first time people are conscious of having to make do with remains. This has its effects. ... The oceans have long been, and will long be, subject to ruthless exploitation and even, in places, to ruin. It is not really the sea which is in recession, though, but wildness itself. Wildness is everywhere but it can no longer be seen; and its apparent vanishing is a direct consequence of the new conservationists gaze. "The Wild" is nowadays a concept ringing with the overtones of patronage, of collections by school children on its behalf. The present generation is as much contaminated by its own reverential and placatory attitude as the older was by domination. There is something ignobal about it, compounded as it is of urban sentimentalism, virtuous concern and sheer panic at having irrevocably fouled the nest while so comfortably lining it. Above all, the self-interest shows through. Luckily, there is a chasm properly and forever fixed between the nonhuman and the humanist biospheres between wildness and caring. It is seldom visible to modern eyes. Virtue and the wild share no common universe. If the sea always was a rich source of melancholy, there is in any case a new melancholy to go with the new gaze. Conservation is only ever a rearguard action, fought from a position of loss. It is ultimately unwinnable, and not least because there are no recorded victories over population increase, nor over the grander strategies of genetic behavior such as the laws of demand, political expediency, sheer truancy and a refusal to relinquish a standard of living once it has been attained. There can only be stalemates, holding actions and truces uneasily policed. A few affecting species will be saved, a few million hectares of forest, a few tribes of indians; but the world will never return to how it was when this sentence was written, still less to how it was when reader and writer were born. This has always been true and will continue to be so. The mistake is to extend this sequence backward in time and imagine it leads to a lost paradise. it is a safe bet that as soon as the earliest protohominid could think, it invented a legend to account for its sense of loss. Tom Unger Seattle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi guys, further to the question that came up a few months ago, apparently aerosol brevetoxins can be a concern to kayakers; the following was just posted in proMED: Source: Tampa Bay Online, 24 Sep 1999 <http://www.tampabayonline.net/news/flor100a.htm> Coughing and red eyes experienced by beachgoers in northeastern Florida are the result of small amounts of the algae that causes red tide, health officials said. Only a handful of red tides have been reported on Florida's east coast over the years, although they are fairly common in the Gulf of Mexico. Concentrations of the micro-organism, _Gymnodinium breve_, were low enough that they probably will not kill fish but could easily irritate people's breathing, said Beverly Roberts, a research administrator with the Florida Marine Institute in St. Petersburg. Wind coming off the ocean carries toxins from the micro-organisms and can affect people walking or jogging on the beach. The Duval County Health Department has advised people with breathing problems to avoid the beaches between Mayport and the Guana River State Park in St. Johns County. In the Panhandle, red tide outbreak is suspected in a fish kill along beaches and protected waters in the Fort Walton Beach-Destin area. Dave Szlarski said he awoke Wednesday to find hundreds, perhaps thousands, of dead fish outside his barrier island home across Santa Rosa Sound from Fort Walton Beach. About 90 percent of the fish were large adult mullet and the rest a mix of small fish including white grunt, pinfish, sea catfish, croaker and pigfish. Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> A little late for that around here. It used to be you could launch a kayak > from near all four ferry terminals in the San Juans and the locals viewed > you as an interesting curiousity. Friday Harbor is the only access left and > I'm sure there are groups of locals trying to get it closed to launching > kayaks too just like they did with the other three. The public beach you > have every right to land on they have treated as their private beaches for > years. They are not likely to welcome your intrusion however friendly you > are. Say can I use your toilet my bladder is about to burst? I was just up in the San Juans and had a generally uneasy feeling about private control of such beautiful land. On the other hand, I could see how folks up there might quickly get tired of tourists taking liberties of their private land. None the less, when the revolution comes we should go up there and make all beaches public land for 100 yards back from high tide. Too bad WWT hasn't been able to create more camp sites, but I'm not surprised. The only way to accomodate more people is to make more places for them to camp. If we can't do that then we can't accomodate more people. I just saw a great web site about that: http://www.vhemt.org/ > >quota systems really have been preserved. I don't get to go there as > >often, but when i do is much more special. > > Sanitized, ranger infested, ex-WILDerness is not particularly what I want to > visit. Yea, but I've been to places that have been trampled by people, and to places that have a quota system in place and I generally have a better experience at the protected places. Of course, I'm not so good at getting permits so I usually end up going to the Enchantments before or after permit season. At those times it's empty because the weather is too bad for most people. That's the price of admission and I'm willing to pay it because I'm too young to remember when I didn't have to. > Yes, I design and sell kayaks to earn a living but before you call me a > hypocrite you should know that we do not promote the sport (as one might I was going to call you a hypocrite, but you have a point. I've been in your store and find that you seem ambivlent about making sales. Keep up the good work. Tom. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Increase of use by new users looks inevitable to me. Population is >growing AND awareness of outdoor persuits is growing. There are going >to be more kayakers paddling around, how can the resources accomodate >them? Well: Very uncomfortably > Matt is right about this. There are too many people trying to camp in the few campsites available in places like the San Juan Islands. I have a plan for dealing with this particular problem People with yachts avoid the camping problem by sleeping (and pooping) afloat. This is a legal, and reasonably inoffensive, way to camp in overpopulated areas. Most of us choose kayaks in order to avoid the trouble of large boats, but it is practical to use quite small boats for camping on the water. I like very small sailboats with a cockpit tent or a tiny sleeping cabin and a porta-potty. I am working on various ingenious designs for carrying sea-kayaks on such boats. This kind of small camp-cruiser can easily be pulled on a trailer, launched and sailed to an anchorage, and used as a floating campsite and base of operations for exploring overpopulated areas by kayak. This is not an ideal solution. You loose some flexibility with such an arangement, but it is a way to avoid the campsites. Get together with a few others and you could even set up your own temporary floating water trails . . . Nick Lyle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:00 AM 10/6/99 -0700, Whitesavage & Lyle wrote: >I like very small sailboats with a cockpit tent or a tiny sleeping cabin >and a porta-potty. I am working on various ingenious designs for >carrying sea-kayaks on such boats. This kind of small camp-cruiser can Do any of those ideas involve not being driven into Ralph's arms? I've been kicking around the small sailboat idea as sort of a mini-mothership arrangement. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Maybe no one should be allowed to have more than 5 years of paddling >experience. If you do, sell your boat and stay home. Hmm, if we start licensing kayakers, this would be much simpler. After 5 years, we revoke their kayak license, and issue them a jet ski license... Scott A licensed kinda guy...... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: >>I do lament the old days, I guess it >>will be funny in a few more decades when were both dead and gone, and our >>children are on the beach with their kids, reminiscing about the good old >>days when only 50 kayakers used to land at this beach. :-) >> Dana put his two good'ol American cents in: >Hey now wait a minute some of yalls good old days were before some of us >got into paddling so where do you draw the line? I dunno, Dana...maybe sometime just before Paddlewise started :-) Bc'in Ya'all, Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just got back from the SF Bay Paddle-Fest Boats as far as the eye could see. More vendors than enthusiasts (avoiding buy/sell terms), but when I left at 1300 there were cars lined up to come in. Perhaps a respectable crowd finally showed up after sleeping late. If not, I'd be depressed if my living depended on the kayak "explosion". I'm not convinced sea-kayaking is exploding. Perhaps the market is. People buy boats and gear on a whim and a dream. Manufacturers pop up to meet the neon-colored carbon fiber state of the art demand. What happens then? Not much. That's how gyms stay in business. People buy memberships and then realizing it actually takes effort, they don't go. People that do show up benefit from the funds committed by non-users. Same with kayaks. More time, far more time, is spent talking, shopping and dreaming than paddling. I spent 4 hours 2 minutes and 27 seconds paddling yesterday, about one hour past my comfort level, and my aged body is still sore. I'll be on the water tomorrow, and the next day. I know how this goes. An effort of will to get there, joy once having done so. Sloth is the natural human state. Assuming there is a sea-kayak "explosion" there are two options: Cope, or quit. Cope by going out on week-days, early mornings or by the moon. Go a little further. I'll see a dozen boats when I put in and very few more than a mile away. Appreciate the people who are out there. They want to enjoy the same things I do, share, teach, encourage, set an example. The real destruction of the water is not from kayakers, it's from people who have never been on the water, have no appreciation of it and dump oil down the storm drain. The more people who appreciate the water, the more sensitive their off the water behavior. Or quit. Be a grumpy old man and quit. Complain about increasing population, which you can't do much about. Don't encourage more people to appreciate the water. Don't help them. Let them spend their money on new computers and motor vehicles. Then when they, as a society, pursue courses which trash the waters and fill the bays, you can claim credit through your inaction. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ok Dana, Scott, et al, you want me to cope with all the new paddlers out there and, uh, just roll with it... . . . . . . . . U U U U o.............oo.............o o.............oo.............o . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~ . . . . . . . . o.............o ^ (+ +) Ahhhh, now this is solitude! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So, my picture of four kayakers above water with me below didn't come out - so much for my e-mail art. I guess I'll leave the art work to Jackie. Fortunately, I didn't quit my day job :-) Doug Lloyd At 10:36 PM 9/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >Ok Dana, Scott, et al, you want me to cope with all the new paddlers out >there and, uh, just roll with it... > > . . . . . . . . > U U U U > o.............oo.............o >o.............oo.............o > . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . > ~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~. .~~~~~~~~~~~~. >.~~~~~~~~~ > . . . . . . . > . > o.............o > ^ > > (+ +) Ahhhh, now this is solitude! > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd > > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> Tom said: >> >1. Different levels of development. Users spread themselves over a >> >continum of how much isolation they seak. Those that want more are >> >often willing to >> I said: >> Should read: "must now" or "desperate enough" rather than "often willing" > >The problem is that yall are all trying to see the same, well advertized, spots. >This cave, that rock formation, that historic landmark. >The ocean is a vast domain, and impossibly wild in every respect. >Yes there are, and always will be, crowds around "Old Faithful" like features, >but why do you want to go there more than once? The ocean may be nearly limitless but if you've seen one acre of its surface over a period of time you've pretty much seen it all. The problem is the interesting but more limited coastline (but mainly the even more limited areas of coast where camping is possible and legal). Like several who have commented, I have no trouble seeing and paddling with others, even in large numbers ON DAY TRIPS. I'm not antisocial, I like people. Maybe we can raft up in giant flotillas on the limitless ocean to camp. Waterworld like (I imagine, because like hoards of others I didn't see the movie). > >> A little late for that around here. It used to be you could launch a kayak >> from near all four ferry terminals in the San Juans and the locals viewed >> you as an interesting curiousity. Friday Harbor is the only access left >> and I'm sure there are groups of locals trying to get it closed to >> launching kayaks too just like they did with the other three. The public >> beach you have every right to land on they have treated as their private >> beaches for years. They are not likely to welcome your intrusion however >> friendly you are. Say can I use your toilet my bladder is about to burst? >> > >3. Pratice low impact camping. Leave no trace of fires, leave no >> trash, >clean up your tent site, etc. >Leave places looking less visited >> than when you arrived. > >This is a little Northwest specific, wouldn't you say. In Texas for instance, >all beaches are public, and if a storm erodes the beach up to some >landowners house, they loose the house to the state. Some beaches are >more difficult to access, but they are all public, but at least half of the >coast has easy drive on access, if you know how to drive on soft sand. Most beaches are public here to, but just to the high tide line. Those looking for a little privacy to void themselves end up tresspassing. Maybe the solution is for kayakers to get over their inhibitions and and just do it on the beach (or in their kayaks as you suggest). Somehow I don't think the upland landowners will be happy watching us on the beach being careful not to tresspass on their uplands either. If all beaches are public in Texas can you camp on any of them you wish? Will you be run down by 4WD vehicles? You could camp just about anywhere someone else wasn't actively using in southern Baja until just recently. It WAS great. > >Also, why would you bother a property owner by asking him to make his >homes restroom a public facility? Just bring a bag or bottle to relieve >yourself, or for the more flexibly inclined, put some distance between you >and others and pee over the side. I was pointing out that most don't ask and would probably not get permission if they did. The landowners just don't want us on what they have long considered there property even though it legally isn't. There have been incidents of paddlers being threateded by an irate landowner with a shotgun while standing legally on public property. My point was that being "friendly with the natives" wasn't going to help much in this kind of situation. > <SNIP> >> Sanitized, ranger infested, ex-WILDerness is not particularly what I want >> to visit. > >I like to think of such places, like I do the National Park system. They are >essentially open air zoos for the masses. I guage this by the reaction of >supposed wild animals. What should a wild animal do when it sees a >200lb predator closing in on it? Fight or flight. What do they do in >National Parks? Ogle and beg, just like in the zoo. What do they do in >Gila Wilderness area? Run like h*** to get out of Dodge. 1.Zoo. >2.Wilderness. Simple. Any place you see a 50 lb seal gaze at you like >the food distributor, you know you aren't in wilderness, no matter what the >rocks look like. Any place that they scatter from once they get a good >look at you, is wilderness. We are of like mind on this. > >> My advise to kayakers in areas that haven't suffered the above fates yet >> is to SHUT UP about the joys of kayaking or even actively discourage >> participation by others. Whatever you do don't advertise your favorite >> places and if you do take a special friend swear them to secrecy. Treat >> kayaking like you should treat a tiny mountain lake with great fishing for >> huge trout (that you would like to see stay that way). SHUT UP ABOUT IT! > >While this might be true of a small mountain lake, it can hardly be true of >the ocean. If kayaking gets as popular in Texas as it is around Seattle, or if your glowing description (below) entices a lot of us to retire to Texas you may see things differently soon. One problem with my advice is that people don't recognize the danger until it is too late. If you turn only two people on to kayaking and each of them only gets two more started the population of kayakers increases exponentially. And it is not self-limiting like backpacking, I call it the old backpackers sport precisely because it is so easy. The water floats all your weight and there are no hills to carry it up. What a panacea for aching knees and shoulders. We are not likely to give it up (unless our liscence is revoked). > >Maybe yall should shift your focus away from the Pacific Northwest. >Maybe Texas? Unlimited access, year round paddling, excellent fishing, >more birds than you could possibly imagine...... Sounds great, here we all come. Can we use your bathroom? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Most beaches are public here to, but just to the high tide line. Those > looking for a little privacy to void themselves end up tresspassing. Maybe > the solution is for kayakers to get over their inhibitions and and just > do it on the beach (or in their kayaks as you suggest). Somehow I don't > think the upland landowners will be happy watching us on the beach being > careful not to tresspass on their uplands either. If all beaches are > public in Texas can you camp on any of them you wish? Will you be run down > by 4WD vehicles? You could camp just about anywhere someone else wasn't > actively using in southern Baja until just recently. It WAS great. > > >Also, why would you bother a property owner by asking him to make his > >homes restroom a public facility? Just bring a bag or bottle to relieve > >yourself, or for the more flexibly inclined, put some distance between > you >and others and pee over the side. I've never heard of a camp being run over by a 4x4. Most folks prefer to get on the beach by driving their 4x4. I like doing it in a small car, but I'm just wierd. I guess its just that people camp on the beaches all the time, tents, RVs, people sleeping in the bed of a pickup, all very common sights, especially in summer. This is not a new situation, its the way its always been. As to the upland landowners, given our coastal configuration and propensity for hurricanes, there are few high-dollar locations along the coast. There are more mobile homes on 15ft stilts than there are million dollar homes, and most of the high dollar homes are restricted to relatively small chunks of Galveston island. Even then, folks camp, park, fish in front of those houses, and really, always have. The concept of exclusive access to a beach is entirely foreign here. > I was pointing out that most don't ask and would probably not get > permission if they did. The landowners just don't want us on what they > have long considered there property even though it legally isn't. There > have been incidents of paddlers being threateded by an irate landowner > with a shotgun while standing legally on public property. Dial 911. I've never heard of this happening on a Texas beach. On a hill country river, yes, but a public ocean facing beach? Never. > >While this might be true of a small mountain lake, it can hardly be true > >of the ocean. > > If kayaking gets as popular in Texas as it is around Seattle, or if your > glowing description (below) entices a lot of us to retire to Texas you may > see things differently soon. One problem with my advice is that people > don't recognize the danger until it is too late. If you turn only two > people on to kayaking and each of them only gets two more started the > population of kayakers increases exponentially. And it is not > self-limiting like backpacking, I call it the old backpackers sport > precisely because it is so easy. The water floats all your weight and > there are no hills to carry it up. What a panacea for aching knees and > shoulders. We are not likely to give it up (unless our liscence is > revoked). I think this is a difference in culture, Texas/Louisiana vs PacificNW, in Texas, half the coastal planes folks in poverty own boats and use them on the saltwater, camp on the beaches, hunt in the coastal marshes. In the PacificNW, I have a feeling that seeing a power boat worth $800 on the big salty is a rare sight. There are thousands upon thousands of cheap boats operating along the Texas coast, a few thousands kayaks won't make even a tiny dent in the boating density. > >Maybe yall should shift your focus away from the Pacific Northwest. > >Maybe Texas? Unlimited access, year round paddling, excellent fishing, > >more birds than you could possibly imagine...... > > Sounds great, here we all come. Can we use your bathroom? No. P*** in the water like everyone else. A couple caveats I should mention... We have no surf. Our water is brown, or green on a good day. Hurricanes suck eggs. Summer is spectacularly brutal. And refineries are as common as houses along the inside bays; I like refineries especially at night, but I'm wierd. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All: I have read most of the threads that people have written. I'm new to kayaks and paddling, I'm not new to the outdoors. I have spent the better part of 30 years outdoors doing something. I have never had a sport that has gotten my attention as much a kayaking. I see a problem here that is the people that have been kayaking for "X" amount of time blaming the new kayakers for the over crowding and the waste that is left behind. Did the people that started kayaking 10 years think how they would impact the environment and the other kayakers? No. Maybe? Now the people that have been doing it for 20 years saw these new people and said Why are these people doing this (starting into kayaking). For the very same reason that they started 10 years before. Did the people that came across on the Mayflower think about the impact? No the Native people did. Now wee call them historical cites. We think that the place that we think is special to us now, that no one else should use it, what about the memories about sharing these with a person. Then now matter what happens you and your special place will always go full circle. What you taught that person will be taught again and again. I will teach my children to respect nature and not to destroy it for others. A possible answer to this problem is that we start a big brother, big sister program that way they can teach the newer kayakers. Maybe put a very small sticker on you boats designating which you are the teacher or the student. Then only the people that want to teach or learn would participate. We could have a sponsorship that only those that were sponsored could go into areas set aside for this. Set up a standard to teach and also learn, before the student becomes the teacher. If WE all do are part we will all feel that we were the first one's there. I know that there is no clear answer to the problem, but we all can make the best of the circumstances that we have. Half full or half empty? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net> >I just got back from the SF Bay Paddle-Fest > >Boats as far as the eye could see. >More vendors than enthusiasts (avoiding buy/sell terms), but when I left at >1300 there were cars lined up to come in. Perhaps a respectable crowd >finally >showed up after sleeping late. If not, I'd be depressed if my living >depended on >the kayak "explosion". > >I'm not convinced sea-kayaking is exploding. Perhaps the market is. People >buy boats and gear on a whim and a dream. Manufacturers pop up to meet the >neon-colored carbon fiber state of the art demand. Actually the hot market right now is low priced plastic "recreational" kayaks. >What happens then? Not >much. That's how gyms stay in business. People buy memberships and then >realizing it actually takes effort, they don't go. People that do show up >benefit from the funds committed by non-users. Same with kayaks. More time, >far more time, is spent talking, shopping and dreaming than paddling. I >spent 4 hours 2 minutes and 27 seconds paddling yesterday, about one hour >past my comfort level, and my aged body is still sore. I'll be on the water >tomorrow, and the next day. I know how this goes. An effort of will to get >there, joy once having done so. Sloth is the natural human state. > >Assuming there is a sea-kayak "explosion" there are two options: >Cope, or quit. > Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com Coping in Seattle (and warning those who don't yet see a problem elsewhere). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bayside Bob does not seem convinced, just yet, that there is a kayaking "explosion." As a small business owner in the industry I would like to reassure him, "It's happening, Bob." I also agree with Woody, there are a lot of kayaks with bottom sides that never get wet. I am an agreeable guy today, Matt wrote that the boom right now is in the plastic recreational kayaks. This is an industry fact. I think that these are the people that the good Reverend referred to as the "first milers," people who paddle within a mile or so of the launch site. They are the masses. They are also the group which will take the pursuit less "seriously," initially at least. And IMHO create the most impact. I do not intend to offend this group, these are my professional observations. As part of the recreational segment, they do not seek training and are not necessarily in need of it. These boats are designed to be extremely user friendly. As near shore (ramp or launch site) paddlers, they have the greatest interaction with powerboaters. Often less than amiable exchanges take place, especially after a long day of powerboating and the consumption of alcohol which quite often accompanies it. On the Dave K subject of human waste disposal, "PACK IT IN, PACK IT OUT," seems to me to be the ONLY solution. The problem is voluntary compliance and enforcement. How about this, anyone who litters (feces or other trash) is made to pick up litter (feces or other trash). People need to be educated as to the proper and expected behaviors and then held accountable. This would be easy in a watertrail situation as people could be educated prior to securing a permit and provided with a sanitary disposal site at the end of the trip. On the subject of permitting. No block permits. I resent it tremendously when I can't get three permits for an overnight trip because a large outfitter blocked out twenty spots six months earlier on the speculation that he could sell the positions. These are public lands, I was under the impression that equal access was guaranteed under the law. I believe that the most difficult issue in this discussion is carrying capacities. How much traffic can a natural area tolerate without suffering significant degradation (physical, visual, spiritual, commercial). IMHO the impacts of man on a natural area may not be immediately recognizable. Ex. if you frighten roosting birds in a rookery, you may have a significant decline in hatchlings or the adults may not return to the site next season. The extent of the impact may not be seen for years. EDUCATION. Education needs to be more than proper strokes and strobe lights. It needs to be Environmental Ethic taught at the elementary school level. And it does not need to be confused with or connected to religion. That my friends is the ONLY way that we can ensure "paddling" areas for future generations. LET IT RIP ALL YOU WHO BELIEVE WE SHOULD ALL ACCEPT OUR INEVITABLE FATE BY EITHER GROWING UP or DEALING WITH IT or GETTING A LIFE or FURTHER IGNORING IT Thanx, Bruce Whole Earth Outfitters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/26/99 6:28:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Outfit3029_at_aol.com writes: << How about this, anyone who litters (feces or other trash) is made to pick up litter (feces or other trash). People need to be educated as to the proper and expected behaviors and then held accountable. This would be easy in a watertrail situation as people could be educated prior to securing a permit and provided with a sanitary disposal site at the end of the trip.<< This is evidence of the problem (packing out biodegradable waste is a waste) I can see it on river systems but not the wild ocean coast, I will Sea kayak somewhere else. >> On the subject of permitting. No block permits. I resent it tremendously when I can't get three permits for an overnight trip because a large outfitter blocked out twenty spots six months earlier on the speculation that he could sell the positions. >> Yes, The real problem, not individual sea kayakers, but venders (some former human beings). I know some outfiter/instructors, some I think of as friends but they want you to pay for things you normally share for free. They are not like the rest of us. The desire to make a living from Kayaking means they have to think money when you think sharing. The San Juan Island problem is not sea kayakers but the land boom on shore. Every bay and point has an obnoxious over sized house. The Washington coast is self limiting, it intimidates or "Darwin's out" the clueless sea kayaker. Backpackers who hike the coastal trail out number kayakers twenty to one. Locals who want easy access endanger the isolation. An area should not be called a wilderness if it requirers permits and imposes restrictions, its should be called a Preserve. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, with all due respect, I find it difficult to compare one of the most environmentally impacted areas on this planet with a pristine natural area. Bruce WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote (big snip below): >I know it is the human instinct for some of us to want to horde, to want >to maintain some exclusivity over a domain they discovered by themselves >years ago. But there is so much of that domain and sharing it won't >take anything away. Maybe some places do crowd up but do as BaysideBob >suggests...go at other times, go further out. Instead of resenting the >newcomers, embrace them, help them skill up and smarten up to enjoy the >waters as you have. Ralph, Bob, et al, The above is probably representative of what a "working philosophy" each of us "old timers" needs to employ. I know Ralph has done a lot for the sport of sea kayaking, and rightly pontificates the importance of good "watermanship" skills and minimizing impact on the environment. And, rather than decry the loss of wilderness in his heavily populated and developed area, he is still able to go for an evening paddle and enjoy the man made skyline of huge skyscrapers. That's optimism. That's adjustment. That's being a good example. He also, from what I've heard, has a lot of patience with newbies. That's patience, doing it year after year. I know I don't have it. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a relatively new paddler I should probably keep out of the conversation. However, I do have a few observations and comments. On the VHEM option, the Shakers tried this in the US. It worked for them, they are extinct, mostly, but it didn't catch on. Saddly, some of the areas that we paddle will need more rules and regulation to keep them from being used to death. The BWCAW in MN is an example of this. When I first started going there there were very few rules, cans, bottles and motors were OK. I remember using what is now a very popular entry point as a picnic spot and having the whole campground to ourselves. Or driving all day in the woods and seeing maybe a couple of logging trucks. Now NE Minnesota is overrun with descendants of J. Swifts Yahoo's (sp.) (and go read the book if you think he and I are referring to native americans), they lack the moral and intelectual capacity to pickup their own room, mutch less keep the woods and waters clean. The BWCAW now has lots of rules and fees, some of the rules are ignored and most of them irritate me, but they do help keep some of the Yahoos in line. The north woods is full of yuppie scum with kayaks and kevlar canoes on top of their SUVs. With all of this I refuse to give up hope for the future. Wilderness and wild lands address a yearing in the human soul that cannot be stilled in the crowd. I can still find places to paddle, hunt, hike and fish that no one but a very few know about and they, so far respect what is there. I will still sauna in my sauna suit and jump into the big lake (Superior), if the jet skeeters, trollers and the rest will just need to look the other way. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/27/99 3:03:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << Where do you live, BijiliE? Are there crowding issues there? >> I live in Sacramento, California. There isn't much crowding in the places I paddle (inland lakes and Class I-II whitewater), as long as one avoids the South Fork American on weekends and places like Lake Tahoe during the summer. But there are limitless places to go, where you'll see very few people. For example, I went to Loon Lake in the Sierras several weeks ago, and our group was the only one in the campground. For the more popular places, one just has to wait until a weekday or off-season. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thomas Unger <unger_at_tumtum.com> wrote: >I was just up in the San Juans and had a generally uneasy feeling about private control of such beautiful land. On the other hand, I could see how folks up there might quickly get tired of tourists taking liberties of their private land. None the less, when the revolution comes we should go up there and make all beaches public land for 100 yards back from high tide. < Hmmm...it strikes me there's something in that. (Making public 100 yds back from beaches--not the revolution) Of course, almost all the land in question is privately owned, so it would take a revolution. Too bad it wasn't set up that way when the land was deeded. There are lakes here in Montana that have all public beaches--it's like a big public Boulevard--pretty nice, IMHO. >Too bad WWT hasn't been able to create more camp sites, but I'm not surprised. The only way to accomodate more people is to make more places for them to camp. If we can't do that then we can't accomodate more people. I just saw a great web site about that: http://www.vhemt.org/< Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. Shawn 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ 0 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it > comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the > remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that > the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're > permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. This is a great idea. Does anyone know of any groups doing this? kirk from massachusetts where oceanfront landowners own to the low tide mark, unless you are fishing - fishing is legal, walking or sitting is trespassing... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:12 PM 9/27/99 -0400, Kirk Olsen wrote: >On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > >> Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it >> comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the >> remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that >> the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're >> permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. > >This is a great idea. Does anyone know of any groups doing this? > Sounds very much like Land Conservancy setups used for hiking trail protection. There are a number of groups working on that. This appears to be an interesting twist. Typically, a Land Conservancy will buy an easement across the property, which protects public access. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > > Hmmm...it strikes me there's something in that. (Making public 100 yds > back from beaches--not the revolution) Of course, almost all the land > in question is privately owned, so it would take a revolution. Too bad > it wasn't set up that way when the land was deeded. There are lakes > here in Montana that have all public beaches--it's like a big public > Boulevard--pretty nice, IMHO. FWIW, in Oregon, a landmark case in the early '70's made all of the beach zone public access -- up to the limit of high tides and waves, so that it is legal to walk anywhere from the water to that mark. In the state of Washington, private ownership of the same zone is commonplace, IIRC. One only has to walk a little bit of the shorelines of each state to see a dramatic difference. Mind you, I understand and have empathy for the concerns of upland landowners regarding those who abuse the privilege we have here in Oregon. However, there seems to be a strong sense of "we'll protect that beach -- we ALL own it" here in Oregon, which perhaps stems partly from the legal situation. I've seen the scene in the San Juans, and it is not pretty, either from the landowner's point of view, or from the paddler's perspective. It is not a good situation, but given the laws in the state of WA, it is no surprise. (Yes, I recognize that some of the problems up there come in areas where the upland landowner does NOT own or control the intertidal zone.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know; I've been up there. It's not pretty, but right now, that's the way it is. It sucks that you can't just land anywhere and stretch your legs. You basically "hop" from public beach to public beach. It would be wonderful up there if there was public access even 20' up from high water; you could camp anywhere. Of course, it would also be wonderful if nobody abused a great situation like that, but somebody would and it would ruin it for everybody. Shawn Dave Kruger wrote: >>snip<< > I've seen the scene in the San Juans, and it is not pretty, either from the > landowner's point of view, or from the paddler's perspective. It is not a > good situation, but given the laws in the state of WA, it is no surprise. > (Yes, I recognize that some of the problems up there come in areas where the > upland landowner does NOT own or control the intertidal zone.) > > Dave Kruger > Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/27/99 10:01:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, baker_at_montana.com writes: << Hmmm...it strikes me there's something in that. (Making public 100 yds. back from beaches--not the revolution.) Of course, almost all the land in question is privately owned, so it would take a revolution. Too bad it wasn't set up that way when the land was deeded. There are lakes here in Montana that have all public beaches--it's like a big public Boulevard--pretty nice, IMHO. >> Yes, we are really lucky here in Sacramento that wise people set aside much of the banks of our Lower American River (which runs through the city) for parks. There are a few private homes up on the bluffs, but the banks are accessible throughout. We also have some beautiful parks on the two lakes above the Lower American (Folsom Lake and Lake Natoma). We weren't so lucky with the South Fork American, most of which is private land and posted as a quiet area. This necessity of being quiet during an exciting whitewater raft trip does detract somewhat from the experience. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:12 PM 9/27/99 -0400, Kirk Olsen wrote: >On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > >> Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it >> comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the >> remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that >> the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're >> permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. > >This is a great idea. Does anyone know of any groups doing this? > The Nature Conservancy (http://www.tnc.org/ ) does a lot of this kind of thing. But they're not specific to waterfront land. Also their mandate is for wildlife and habitat preservation not recreation. So they've (I guess we - I'm a member) been known to restrict access into sensitive areas. Luke -------------------------------------------------------- Luke Hoffman lhoffman_at_colsa.com COLSA Corporation In the great human comedy, one day we're spectators, the next day we're performers. Garrison Keillor *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just had to do a subject change... On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Luke Hoffman wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: > > > >> Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it > >> comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the > >> remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that > >> the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're > >> permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. > > > The Nature Conservancy (http://www.tnc.org/ ) does a lot of this kind of > thing. But they're not specific to waterfront land. I was thinking more of a group that goes after public access. Buy the access (or beach), and resell the rest of the parcel. Around here it varies highly by town what the public access is. The town I live in doesn't officially have any public access, that I know of, to ponds, rivers, or lakes. Orleans, Massachusetts (on Cape Cod) has approximately 65 public landings. Some of the landings are ramps with parking others are just a trail through some brush. Every freshwater pond has at least one public landing, to the best of my knowledge. Each of the saltwater coves has at least one landing. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:23 PM 9/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >I just had to do a subject change... > >On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Luke Hoffman wrote: >> >On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Shawn W. Baker wrote: >> > >> >> Perhaps an organization could be set up to purchase private land as it >> >> comes up for sale, subdivide off the near-beach portion, and sell the >> >> remaining land to another private landowner, with the understanding that >> >> the foreshore area is to be accessible to the public, but they're >> >> permitted (as public citizens) to utilize it too. >> > >> The Nature Conservancy (http://www.tnc.org/ ) does a lot of this kind of >> thing. But they're not specific to waterfront land. > >I was thinking more of a group that goes after public access. Buy the >access (or beach), and resell the rest of the parcel. > >Around here it varies highly by town what the public access is. The >town I live in doesn't officially have any public access, that I know >of, to ponds, rivers, or lakes. > It's interesting how access varies. Around here, North Alabama, access is basically not an issue unless you want to paddle some of the smaller streams. There's a (blessedly jet ski free) national wildlife refuge close by and the TVA maintains a lot of access points along the major streams and lakes. There's also a couple of nice state parks on lakes within an hour or so's drive. I going to try paddling both parks this winter to see what it's like. I've paddled them in the summer, but there's a good deal of boat and PWC traffic. Of course it can get mighty cold on the lakes around here in the winter. The temperature has been know to drop into the 50s! Luke ---------------------------------------------------------------- Luke Hoffman lukeh_at_hiwaay.net These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. Groucho *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers ... I think it was Yogi Berra who said, "It's so crowded nobody goes there anymore !" That's been a fairly appropriate summary of my woods and water passage since back in the mid-60's. Paddling, camping, and hiking has always been a journey for me. Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas ...special places turn into parking lots, so I break camp and move on. Other special places are found and last for various lengths of time. While I may not like "moving on", I am always rewarded with a sense of searching, and the satisfaction of finding another "special place". So far I always manage to have an enjoyable time, and find what I'm looking for. My choice of destination mostly depends on the time of year and the associated activity. I have special spots for paddling year round, for fishing, for camping, for hiking, and occasionally, for hunting. Sometimes I may join a larger base camp of friends, old and new. Other times I may be far, far from anyone. While my special places may not be pristine, it doesn't take 3 days to reach them either. They are accessible and some are really only a bit of a crook off the beaten path. Perhaps, Yogi knew all along that it would come to this ..."it's so crowded nobody goes there anymore !" ...adieu ...Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ---------- > From: Dave Kruger[SMTP:dkruger_at_pacifier.com] > > > Most would welcome a newcomer to his/her > camp and share the coffee and brandy. > Hold on just one minute; I never said I would share my brandy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I didn't read earlier threads on this but it seems it involves access to beaches. is such restriction general in the US? one sign of civiisation in Australia is the total public ownership of and access to all coastline in aust (with certain very limited military restrictions i think). private beach ownership is absent. Some islands might be private but even there I THINK low tide mark access is possible. nick Nicholas Gill School of Geography and Oceanography University of NSW Australian Defence Force Academy Canberra ACT 2600 Ph. 02 6268 8317 Mob. 041 7659440 Fax 02 6268 8313 Email: nicholas.gill_at_adfa.edu.au ---------- > From: Shawn W. Baker <baker_at_montana.com> > To: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > Cc: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Thomas Unger <unger_at_tumtum.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > Date: Tuesday, 28 September 1999 11:34 > > I know; I've been up there. It's not pretty, but right now, that's the > way it is. It sucks that you can't just land anywhere and stretch your > legs. You basically "hop" from public beach to public beach. > > It would be wonderful up there if there was public access even 20' up > from high water; you could camp anywhere. Of course, it would also be > wonderful if nobody abused a great situation like that, but somebody > would and it would ruin it for everybody. > > Shawn > > > Dave Kruger wrote: > >>snip<< > > I've seen the scene in the San Juans, and it is not pretty, either from the > > landowner's point of view, or from the paddler's perspective. It is not a > > good situation, but given the laws in the state of WA, it is no surprise. > > (Yes, I recognize that some of the problems up there come in areas where the > > upland landowner does NOT own or control the intertidal zone.) > > > > Dave Kruger > > Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I didn't read earlier threads on this but it seems it involves access to > beaches. is such restriction general in the US? Each state is different. You have to remember, unlike British style parlimentary government, the US is made up of 50 very unique, and mostly sovereign governments. Most all laws, criminal and civil, are state laws. Land ownership is one of these. So in one state you might be able to own all the beach all the way down to the low tide mark; where in another state, the beach is a public right of way as open for public use as any highway. Think of it as the EU with a little bit more centralization. > one sign of civiisation in Australia is the total public ownership of and > access to all coastline in aust (with certain very limited military > restrictions i think). Then you must think Texas a very civilized place. All beach is public. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've watched this thread with a bit of interest and thought I should comment on the history of private beaches here in the Pacific Northwest. Until the late 1950's virtually all of the beaches on the saltwater and on some of the major rivers were public, but the state offered them for sale from that point until the mid to late 1970's. There are some interesting books on the topic and also several guidebooks that can come in handy when you're looking for legal landing spots (I don't remember the names - and what's really bad is that they're in one of my piles of maps and charts in this very room - but I know you can find them at NWOC or REI). Happy paddling - Saul -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of R. Walker Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 5:26 AM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > I didn't read earlier threads on this but it seems it involves access to > beaches. is such restriction general in the US? Each state is different. You have to remember, unlike British style parlimentary government, the US is made up of 50 very unique, and mostly sovereign governments. Most all laws, criminal and civil, are state laws. Land ownership is one of these. So in one state you might be able to own all the beach all the way down to the low tide mark; where in another state, the beach is a public right of way as open for public use as any highway. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here in BC, most beaches are public below higher high water (the highest the tide goes without storm surge, basically). The exceptions are some oyster leases, and some cases where rich and influential yacht clubs have persuaded municipal goverments to deed them areas of water as well as land - I've had a similar rude awakening to this as the other paddlewiser described with finding out some water DID belong to the yacht club. Wish I had the bucks to mount a legal challenge to this. A couple of people observed that having beaches public was an indicator of how civilised a place was or wasn't. By this standard, Norway ranks as one of the most civilised places on Earth. We paddled in the Lofoten Islands above the Arctic Circle. Anywhere that is even remotely landable has a village or a few houses using the "port". They still honour a common law left over from the days when people used to come north to the islands in open boats to take advantage of the rich fishery there: you can land and camp even on "private" land so long as you are not visible from anyone's house (I'm sure there must be limits to this - you can't "squat" and acquire title). For kayakers and other tourers, it's ideal. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Philip Torrens wrote: > ...<snip>... > A couple of people observed that having beaches public was an indicator of > how civilised a place was or wasn't. By this standard, Norway ranks as one > of the most civilised places on Earth. We paddled in the Lofoten Islands > above the Arctic Circle. Anywhere that is even remotely landable has a > village or a few houses using the "port". They still honour a common law > left over from the days when people used to come north to the islands in > open boats to take advantage of the rich fishery there: you can land and > camp even on "private" land so long as you are not visible from anyone's > house (I'm sure there must be limits to this - you can't "squat" and acquire > title). For kayakers and other tourers, it's ideal. This basic right applies not just in the north, but throughout Norway (and Scandinavia, for that matter). Known as "allemannsrett", it is frequently translated as "Every Man's Right" (but perhaps could more appropriately be translated as "Common Man's Right"). It allows people to travel and camp on noncultivated land throughout Norway, including on private property, subject to very modest restrictions (such as not camping in close proximity to private residences). You can read more about this right at the following site: In English: http://www.willassen.no/guide/generelt/allemannsrett.en.html In Norwegian: http://www.willassen.no/guide/generelt/allemannsrett.no.html I agree with Philip that this is very civilized! I wish we had such a right here in North America. (And before some private property right advocate makes a snide comment, yes I am a land owner, and no I would not mind having this apply on my properties.) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, the "common man's right" is a nice concept, however, aren't the Scandinavian countries socialist nations? Blessed as we are in this, the greatest of all lands, I doubt that the majority would forget democracy and capitalism in order to secure better access to paddling and camping spots. Let me add, if I may, the reason that I feel we live in "the greatest of all lands" is because of the land. We have diversity and resources that you just don't find packed into any other comparably sized area. This is our wealth as a nation. This is our duty, to protect it for future generations. That was the heart of "Saturation Point," searching for viable measures to attain sustainability. Not exclusionism or elitism. Or, did I miss the point again. Sometimes the flat screen does not project the emotion of a topic. I could read plenty of emotion in "Saturation Point." I hope that someone can distill the posts and perhaps we as paddlers (hikers, bikers and nature likers) can help to develop an ethic for "Ecotourism" promoters that protects, promotes and educates. Bruce Whole Earth Outfitters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bruce: You have stated that socialist Scandinavian countries are not democracies. This is not true. You have stated that the right of the commons is contrary to capitalism and democracy. This is not true. You have equated capitalism with democracy. This is not true. You have equated capitalism with environmental protection. This is not true. You asked if you have missed the point again. This is true. You have missed many basic facts, and have denigrated other fine nations through McCarthyesque rhetoric. Cheers, Richard Culpeper Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > Paddlewisers, the "common man's right" is a nice concept, however, aren't the > Scandinavian countries socialist nations? Blessed as we are in this, the > greatest of all lands, I doubt that the majority would forget democracy and > capitalism in order to secure better access to paddling and camping spots. > Let me add, if I may, the reason that I feel we live in "the greatest of all > lands" is because of the land. We have diversity and resources that you just > don't find packed into any other comparably sized area. This is our wealth > as a nation. This is our duty, to protect it for future generations. That > was the heart of "Saturation Point," searching for viable measures to attain > sustainability. Not exclusionism or elitism. Or, did I miss the point > again. Sometimes the flat screen does not project the emotion of a topic. I > could read plenty of emotion in "Saturation Point." I hope that someone can > distill the posts and perhaps we as paddlers (hikers, bikers and nature > likers) can help to develop an ethic for "Ecotourism" promoters that > protects, promotes and educates. > Bruce > Whole Earth Outfitters > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > Paddlewisers, the "common man's right" is a nice concept, however, aren't the > Scandinavian countries socialist nations? Blessed as we are in this, the > greatest of all lands, I doubt that the majority would forget democracy and > capitalism in order to secure better access to paddling and camping spots. Capitalism isn't so great. And it's not particularly democratic either. Looking around it seems to me that political influence comes in proportion to the amount of capitol one controls. Access to beautiful land is also in proportion to the amount of capitol one controls. We are all told that we have equal chance to gather capitol, but that is just not true. Fortunately, the masses are able to band together, for interest groups, and through a government that, more or less is honest, wield some power. But only because together they represent capitol. This is such an ingrained american belief that many people don't see alternatives. Or associate alternatives with loss of personal freedom. So american's don't see how their need to amass capital restricts their personal freedoms. One complaint I've heard in this discussion has been how people don't have time to travel to remote and less crowded destinations. I assume this is because they have to work. I'm also restricted from using some beautiful beaches because they are privately owned. There aren't enough beaches for every one to own their own, so only those with enough capital will be able to. Ones ability to enjoy uncrowded beaches is in proportion to capital. Now, we do have a lot of resources here. Enough that we were able to set aside vast stretches of wilderness. At least they seemed vast when they got set aside. Now they are just rather larger and being picked away. Even if they get no smaller, just because of population increase they will seem small and over used. Would it not be better if our right to use land was more in proportion to our presence as an individual on the planet? (well, if you already have a lot of capital it's not better that way. Fortunately for you your capital gives you more voice in keeping the system the way it is.) Now, I know of the tragedy of the commons - where shared resources get trashed because of selfish individual use. Shared fishing grounds are an example. Actually, just about any unpatrolled and maintained public space in america would be trashed by individuals. There are instances of individuals owning and protecting land. This is a good thing. But I think the reverse is far more common, where individuals or corporations develop or exploit land. I'd rather have things owned in common. Then hope that common ownership made individuals feel more responsible for taking care. Tom. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yea, I wished I lived in a perfect world too. John Winskill > Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > >snip, snip > I'd rather have things owned in common. Then hope that common ownership > made individuals feel more responsible for taking care. > > Tom. > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Paddlewisers, the "common man's right" is a nice concept, however, aren't the > Scandinavian countries socialist nations? No, we have a "thoroughly modern market economy" according to the CIA world factbook. Anyway one more correction to a previous post in this thread. The "allemandsret" unfortunately doesn't apply in all Scandinavian countries. Here in Denmark we only have the high-tide mark rule. However, unless you setup your tent in somebody's backyard, you'll get no complains. [...] > Bruce > Whole Earth Outfitters best regards Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, Bruce. Not just that, but did you know that there are cannibals in the Lofoten islands? Since hardly anything grows there they feed on unaware tourists. So please, you and everyone, stay out of Norway or those antidemocratic socialist cannibals will eat you. - Julio (yes, I love Norway, been there many times and want it all for myself?. Ha dag! :-) > Paddlewisers, the "common man's right" is a nice concept, however, aren't the > Scandinavian countries socialist nations? [snip] > protects, promotes and educates. > Bruce ^^^^^^^^ ???!! > Whole Earth Outfitters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|I agree with Philip that this is very civilized! I wish we had such a right here |in North America. (And before some private property right advocate makes a snide |comment, yes I am a land owner, and no I would not mind having this apply on my |properties.) Hmmm, have you ever seen what bank fisher's do to an area? Here in North Carolina, the state has very nicely created many areas that are Public Access Areas. These are generally for people to fish from the bank on rivers and lakes. I can think of two places that allow motorized boat traffic but generally around here they are used by the public to fish the lakes. This is a good thing. I think it is a d...d good thing. I've used some of the access points to launch my paddle boats. The bad thing is that they access points quickly become a dump site. I don't mean that people come in and dump dishwashers or tires, well I have seen tires, but the bank fisher's leave piles and piles of trash and dead fish. Its disgusting. The state places trash barrels in the parking lot but these B...ds are too lazy to use them. Instead they just throw there soda bottles on the ground along with their junk food bags. But that just mixes right in with the dead fish they killed and decided they did not want to clean and eat. These people have been given access, a right, and totally failed in THEIR responsiblity to the access areas. Now, I don't think all people who fish from the bank do this but certainly a large segment of that population do. There is just to much trash in to many access areas to be caused by a small minority of people. What is very interesting is that I don't see as much of this at the boat ramps. And generally the trash at the ramps is bank fishers. On one lake access I use frequently, sometimes they charge 4 dollars to get into the park. Sometimes not. This place is clean. I don't think it is clean because the park employees clean up because there just aren't that many employees to keep it clean. The fact that SOMETIMES you get charged to get in seems to keep out the people who trash the lake bank. It seems the people in the Scandinavian countries have more respect for the environment and other peoples property. I don't see this here. I had a small piece of land in the country. I am trying to buy a much larger piece. The land will be posted. If I don't I'll just have problems. Much of the land I have looked at has had trash dumped on it and I'm not talking about land on a river or a lake. Someone has something to dispose of and instead of taking down the road to a county collection they see some empty land and it dump time. I agree the open land right is very civilized. Its incredibly civilized to have the open land "policy" but there is an reciprocal civility that is expected for the right. It only take a very few people to ruin things for everyone else. Later.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I attended a major Waterfront Conference last Thursday here in NYC (part of took place on Governor's Island--strange to see it empty of Coast Guard personnel and families. Part of it was over at the Central RR of NJ historic terminal). The one-day meeting brought together all interests involving the waterfront and the waters of this area: commercial, recreational, government and non-governmental, environmental, etc. I was there as rep for the Hudson River Watertrail. And I saw a lot of friends from other similar organizations such as Floating the Apple (restoration of Whitehall-design pulling row boats used in the last century), Sierra Club, etc. One of the speakers was Ann Alexander, a staff attorney with the Rutgers Environmental Law Clinic in Newark NJ; she is a lead attorney in representing citizen groups in defending the NJ public walkway on the Hudson (see below). She had a lot to say about the issue of access. Perhaps someone on the list might try to locate her and have her input on all of this (hint: our own PaddleWise Debbie Reeves who lives in NJ). In her presentation (brief; all speakers limited to about 8 mins. each) she said that the right of access is quiet ancient going back to Greek and Roman law. The principle involved is that the right to use certain things that are common to all (specifically air, water flow, sea and shore) belongs to everyone and to no one; and that government holds these "commons" in trust for all. It is a Justinian doctrine (whatever that means) and appears in many places such as the Magna Carta, for example, where ownership of the sea and shore is held in trust by the government. One can own waterfront property but that ownership is subject to public trust easement, i.e. public access to the shore. Ms. Alexander stressed that New Jersey is a prime example of this. A battle royal is going on right now over the shore public walkway that the state has planned that runs from near the Statue of Liberty up to the George Washington Bridge. This 15 mile or so stretch of the New Jersey side of the Hudson River has seen incredible commercial development in just the last 5 years with expensive condos going up as well as shopping centers and office buildings. While public access to an esplanade is mandated by the state of New Jersey, some developers have fought back, one in particular, the Shelter Bay housing development about mid-way up. Recently, Shelter Bay lost its suit but has appealed and is being backed by the National Association of Homebuilders. Their argument is that public access infringes on the right of private ownership. So the issue is as fundamental as life itself: Is there a "commons" of sea and shore in which these belong to no one and to all and is watched over as a public trust by the government... ... Or do such commons of public access to the shoreline infringe on the fundamental rights of private ownership? BTW, earlier this year I attempted to walk about 12 miles of that Jersey esplanade with the ShoreWalkers (a walking group devoted to establishing the right of innocent passage along our shoreline in the Tri-State area). So much of it was cut off. We found ourselves climbing around and under fences. Were harassed by a security guard at least at one point. And even a condo owner got all worked up when we tried to access part of the esplanade. The contest pitted him and his wife (about 60 years old, well dressed) and our group which probably averaged about 65 yrs in age (dressed for walking, i.e. a pretty innocent looking group of interlopers)...we finally backed off and find a hole further along the fence. :-) Another BTW, also speaking at the Conference was Bill Neyenhouse, of the State's Environmental Protection and head of its Coastal Zone Management Program. I have talked with him on the phone in the past. He mentioned with pride to the Conference the kayak launch site in Frank Sinatra Park in Hoboken (across from Manhattan's Greenwich Village) as well as other kayak launch plans. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:10 AM 9/29/99 -0400, dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: >|I agree with Philip that this is very civilized! I wish we had such a right >here >|in North America. (And before some private property right advocate makes a >snide >|comment, yes I am a land owner, and no I would not mind having this apply >on my >|properties.) > >Hmmm, have you ever seen what bank fisher's do to an area? Here in North >Carolina, the state has very nicely created many areas that are Public Access >Areas. These are generally for people to fish from the bank on rivers and >lakes. I can think of two places that allow motorized boat traffic but >generally around here they are used by the public to fish the lakes. > >This is a good thing. I think it is a d...d good thing. I've used some of the >access points to launch my paddle boats. > >The bad thing is that they access points quickly become a dump site. I don't >mean that people come in and dump dishwashers or tires, well I have seen tires, >but the bank fisher's leave piles and piles of trash and dead fish. Its >disgusting. The state places trash barrels in the parking lot but these B...ds >are too lazy to use them. Instead they just throw there soda bottles on the >ground along with their junk food bags. But that just mixes right in with the >dead fish they killed and decided they did not want to clean and eat. > >These people have been given access, a right, and totally failed in THEIR >responsiblity to the access areas. > >Now, I don't think all people who fish from the bank do this but certainly a >large segment of that population do. There is just to much trash in to many >access areas to be caused by a small minority of people. You seem to be confusing people that fish from the bank with people that don't dispose of their trash. It's good thing that I'm primarily a flyfisherman and usually fish while standing *in* the water or I might be offended. My experience, based as a flyfisherman for over 25 years, is that flyfisherman are just as ecology minded, or more, than kayakers are. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > > At 10:10 AM 9/29/99 -0400, dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > >|I agree with Philip that this is very civilized! I wish we had such a right > >here > >|in North America. (And before some private property right advocate makes a > >snide > >|comment, yes I am a land owner, and no I would not mind having this apply > >on my > >|properties.) > > > >Hmmm, have you ever seen what bank fisher's do to an area? Here in North > >Carolina, the state has very nicely created many areas that are Public Access > >Areas. These are generally for people to fish from the bank on rivers and > >lakes. I can think of two places that allow motorized boat traffic but > >generally around here they are used by the public to fish the lakes. >SNIP of what mark goes on to say< > <John adds(after a snip)< > You seem to be confusing people that fish from the bank with people that > don't dispose of their trash. It's good thing that I'm primarily a > flyfisherman > and usually fish while standing *in* the water or I might be offended. My > experience, based as a flyfisherman for over 25 years, is that flyfisherman > are just as ecology minded, or more, than kayakers are. > I agree. It's not what people do.., it's what they do. ..or, is it, we all do it, but it's WHERE and WHEN we do it that makes a differance!? Lets face it, it don't matter how much you paid for your shoes, or how big or small your foot size. It's where you put it down, and how many there is. The only way that I can see for my little pond to not be trashed, is for me to keep the gate closed and locked. But then, I also think that people that bring glass containers to a lake and break them, should be shot on the spot.(and I'm leaning more and more toward just bring them at all) James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/29/99 8:44:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, culpeper_at_tbaytel.net writes: << You have stated that socialist Scandinavian countries are not democracies. This is not true. You have stated that the right of the commons is contrary to capitalism and democracy. This is not true. You have equated capitalism with democracy. This is not true. You have equated capitalism with environmental protection. This is not true. You asked if you have missed the point again. This is true. You have missed many basic facts, and have denigrated other fine nations through McCarthyesque rhetoric. >> I suggest (before we get into another endless thread) that we stick to kayaking-related themes and not allow these tangents to take over. (DOWN, BOY. DOWN, BOY) Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > I suggest (before we get into another endless thread) that we stick to > kayaking-related themes and not allow these tangents to take over. ... While I am against endless threads and off-topic tangents, please note that discussions of conservation issues are on-topic for this list. To quote from the Paddlewise charter: "The PaddleWise paddling list covers the following topics: Anything to do with paddling boats! Trip reports ... ... ... <snip>... ... Conservation issues ... " It is sometimes difficult to discuss conservation issues without discussing politics. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > > I suggest (before we get into another endless thread) that we stick to > > kayaking-related themes and not allow these tangents to take over. ... > > While I am against endless threads and off-topic tangents, please note that > discussions of conservation issues are on-topic for this list. To quote from the > Paddlewise charter: > > "The PaddleWise paddling list covers the following topics: > Anything to do with paddling boats! > Trip reports ... > ... > ... <snip>... > ... > Conservation issues > ... " > > It is sometimes difficult to discuss conservation issues without discussing > politics. > Yes, I agree, but the posts she was responding to had degenerated from discussing politics to name calling. I enjoy this group too much to want to see a flame war erupt. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sandy: Public access is central to paddling. Cheers, Richard Culpeper Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/29/99 8:44:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > culpeper_at_tbaytel.net writes: > > << You have stated that socialist Scandinavian countries are not democracies. > This > is not true. > > You have stated that the right of the commons is contrary to capitalism and > democracy. This is not true. > > You have equated capitalism with democracy. This is not true. > > You have equated capitalism with environmental protection. This is not true. > > You asked if you have missed the point again. This is true. You have missed > many basic facts, and have denigrated other fine nations through > McCarthyesque > rhetoric. >> > > I suggest (before we get into another endless thread) that we stick to > kayaking-related themes and not allow these tangents to take over. (DOWN, > BOY. DOWN, BOY) > > Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/29/99 8:29:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, unger_at_tumtum.com writes: << I'd rather have things owned in common. Then hope that common ownership made individuals feel more responsible for taking care. >> Yes, Tom, I agree. It surely was the native peoples' way. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|You seem to be confusing people that fish from the bank with people that |don't dispose of their trash. Not at all. What I have observed over and over in several different states is that people who fish from the banks leave more trash than other people. Flyfishers dont' leave containers of worms or crickets. Bank fishers do. Do people in boats leave trash. Certainly. But I think far fewer. And much of the boat trash is blown overboard when the boats are moving, it is not a deliberate act like the bank fishers. If the boat fishers where throwing trash overboard I would see it. There are more boat fishers than bank fishers and the stuff would be all over the water. It ain't. But there sure is a lot at the public access areas where there is bank fishing. |It's good thing that I'm primarily a flyfisherman |and usually fish while standing *in* the water or I might be offended. My |experience, based as a flyfisherman for over 25 years, is that flyfisherman |are just as ecology minded, or more, than kayakers are. I agree. Its my impression that trout fisher have been fighting for their resource and access to same for a long time. You just don't go out and go fish for trout, you have to get a license to fish and then get another one to go for trout. And how much money is spent by a flyfisher on their equipment? Blows my mind when I have seen the prices on a rod and real! A heck of a lot more than my daddy paid for my fiberglass rod from Kmart back in the 70s! And how about the actual SKILL in using a fly road. Compared with a cane pole. How much effort went in getting the cane pole or using same? Do you need a license for a cane pole? It used to be in Florida you did not. I don't know about NC. Where is the effort in comparison? Now don't get me wrong and think I'm against bank fishers. I'm not. I dont like the $%^&*( who trash OUR resource because they are to %^&*( lazy to pick up after themselves. One big difference between a flyfisher or the boatfisher and cane pole user is that the guy dropping a worm in the water is more likely going for something to put on the table for dinner...... The first two are fishing for recreation. Many bankfishers are hungry. Later.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I agree. Its my impression that trout fisher have been fighting for their > resource and access to same for a long time. You just don't go out and go > fish for trout, you have to get a license to fish and then get another one > to go for trout. And how much money is spent by a flyfisher on their > equipment? Blows my mind when I have seen the prices on a rod and real! > A heck of a lot more than my daddy paid for my fiberglass rod from Kmart > back in the 70s! And how about the actual SKILL in using a fly road. Most of the money spent on fly rod and reel is for asthetics. I can walk down the street and get a $40 8ft 5wt rod and a $15 reel and fish just fine. In fact, my 9ft 10wt saltwater rod cost about $45, just the spool on my large reel cost more than that. Yes, its true, I could go down to the Orvis store and spend $400 on a flyrod, but I doubt it'd catch more fish. Its simply marketing. Cheap graphite rods are available, and quite adequate to the task of putting a fly in front of a fish. To get back on topic.... If you like to fly fish from a kayak, you might want to look at some of the british suppliers, such as Shakespear, they can put you on a 10ft or 11ft rod without taking out a 2nd mortgage. The extra length will help keep your backcast off the water. Also, I think the skill aspect of flyrodding is overrated. Yes, if you feel the need to participate in national casting championships, or care how you look to your friends, then skill will be important. Personally, when I got a rod in my hand, the purpose is to catch fish, not look good, if I *need* a particularly long cast, then I will pay attention to form and do it right, but otherwise, I just flail away and don't worry about it. Its more important to get the fly in the right spot at the right time, than it is to do it with grace. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/29/99 1:12:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dan_at_hagen.net writes: << It is sometimes difficult to discuss conservation issues without discussing politics. >> Conservation topics, obviously, and I understand your point above, but the original conversation sounded pretty hostile to me. Perhaps I was wrong; if so, I apologize. Sandy Kramer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sandykayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > << It is sometimes difficult to discuss conservation issues without discussing > politics. >> > > Conservation topics, obviously, and I understand your point above, but the > original conversation sounded pretty hostile to me. Perhaps I was wrong; if > so, I apologize. > I don't think your were wrong, Sandy, as much of the thread managed to discuss politics without discussing conservation issues. IMO, neither capitalism nor communism nor socialism nor any other ism has much of a higher moral ground in terms of conservation. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Same in Finland as in Norway, I believe. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Philip Torrens Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 8:10 AM To: saul_at_isomedia.com; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Public beaches - was Saturation Point Here in BC, most beaches are public below higher high water (the highest the tide goes without storm surge, basically). The exceptions are some oyster leases, and some cases where rich and influential yacht clubs have persuaded municipal goverments to deed them areas of water as well as land - I've had a similar rude awakening to this as the other paddlewiser described with finding out some water DID belong to the yacht club. Wish I had the bucks to mount a legal challenge to this. A couple of people observed that having beaches public was an indicator of how civilised a place was or wasn't. By this standard, Norway ranks as one of the most civilised places on Earth. We paddled in the Lofoten Islands above the Arctic Circle. Anywhere that is even remotely landable has a village or a few houses using the "port". They still honour a common law left over from the days when people used to come north to the islands in open boats to take advantage of the rich fishery there: you can land and camp even on "private" land so long as you are not visible from anyone's house (I'm sure there must be limits to this - you can't "squat" and acquire title). For kayakers and other tourers, it's ideal. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote: the US is made up of 50 very unique, and mostly > sovereign governments. Most all laws, criminal and civil, are state laws. > Land ownership is one of these. So in one state you might be able to own > all the beach all the way down to the low tide mark; where in another state, > the beach is a public right of way as open for public use as any highway. > >SNIP< I was told by a NM game warden once, as I unloaded my kayak, that I had been trespassing on private property. I told him that I hadn't hiked on any of the private land, and had spent the night on a BLM piece along the way. He informed me that the river flowing through private land didn't give right of way, because it wasn't a naviable river(even tho I had just came down it), and he explained that just standing on the bottom was criminal trespass. So much for public beaches. :>) James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I was told by a NM game warden once, as I unloaded my kayak, that I had > been trespassing on private property. I told him that I hadn't hiked on > any of the private land, and had spent the night on a BLM piece along the > way. He informed me that the river flowing through private land didn't > give right of way, because it wasn't a naviable river(even tho I had just > came down it), and he explained that just standing on the bottom was > criminal trespass. So much for public beaches. :>) River navigation is yet one other area that will be different from state to state. Some rivers are publicly navigable, others, especially smaller, shallower ones, are not, and are simply considered features of the private land that they are on. For Texas at least, the test is something like 30ft across, continuous from its termination, measured at the high water mark. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/27/99 11:45:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lukeh_at_hiwaay.net writes: << The Nature Conservancy (http://www.tnc.org/ ) does a lot of this kind of thing. But they're not specific to waterfront land. Also their mandate is for wildlife and habitat preservation not recreation. So they've (I guess we - I'm a member) been known to restrict access into sensitive areas. >> Yes, I've been a member of The Nature Conservancy for 20 years or so. In fact, my introduction to kayaking was a Nature Conservancy sponsored trip on Cosumnes River Preserve south of Sacramento. I fell in love immediately (after having been an avid participant in various water sports--sailing, canoeing, water skiing, swimming--during my childhood). Thank you, Nature Conservancy, for this introduction, as well as for the hard work at preserving beautiful natural areas. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: >For the record, I enjoy paddling in/near urban centers, but prefer paddling in >places which are distant from population centers. The interplay between >marine environments and the use humans make of them fascinates me. However, >what the critters do with aquatic (and marine) habitats fascinates me more. The thing that probably fascinates me the most is the way critters act despite (or in spite of) nearby population centers. Of course, there are sensitive species, but a great number of critters, given 100 yards of free space, act like there are no humans for miles. Shawn -- 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Shawn W. Baker 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Baker Brothers mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|The thing that probably fascinates me the most is the way critters act |despite (or in spite of) nearby population centers. Of course, there |are sensitive species, but a great number of critters, given 100 yards |of free space, act like there are no humans for miles. Yep. There is an Osprey nest near my usual putin. It is a stand of dead trees at the intersection of three fingers of the lake. The tree seems to shrink every year and gets closer to the water. What is wierd is that a mile by kayak, less by Osprey, is another stand of timber that is very isolated up one of the lake fingers. There is an old paved road that was flooded out by the lake and at normal and low lake levels only very shallow draft boats can get passed the road to get to the timber. Why do the Osprey stay? There is another nest just north of the first nest as well. The intersection is very busy and I just can't figure out why they don't move to a quieter place. Later... Dgf *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > Why do the Osprey stay? There is another nest just north of the first > nest as well. The intersection is very busy and I just can't figure > out why they don't move to a quieter place. Maybe it's some other one's territory, or maybe the fishing isn't as good. But maybe it's just habituation to slowly deteriorating conditions. You know, they say if you try to cook a frog by putting him in hot water, he'll just jump out. But if you start him in cold water and raise the temperature gradually, you can cook him. That's how folks keep living in "civilization"....e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|Maybe it's some other one's territory, or maybe the fishing isn't as good. I think they are just stubborn. They don't wanna move. The quiet area is empty of Osprey's and there are plenty of fish in there. The nest has been in the same place for at least three years and I think they just don't wanna move. Now, if the Osprey flew SSE instead of E there is another lake finger that is cut off from the lake by a causeway. There are pipes under the causeway to allow water to move about but boats can't get in, at least legally. There is a public access point for nonmotorized boats that I used to put my canoe. The last time I was back in that area 4-5 years ago there was no Osprey nests but plenty of standing timber. VERY few people went back in there, and if they did they were in paddle boats. You would think the Osprey or the Bald Eagles would be back in there but they are not. Go figure. I know I would like to live up in there! 8-) These areas are not more than a mile even by boat. Fly time is even less. The fishing is good in the whole area so there is something else going on. I personally think it is a conspiracy. I think the birds are watching us for some reason. I just dont know why and for whom..... 8-) But I'm watching them so i guess it is fair! I have seen Osprey nest in the middle of the Intercoastal Waterway so I guess they just are used to it all..... Or maybe they LIKE watching the Lake Lice and the Water Skiers? Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, James Lofton wrote: > R. Walker wrote: > the US is made up of 50 very unique, and mostly > > sovereign governments. Most all laws, criminal and civil, are state laws. > > Land ownership is one of these. So in one state you might be able to own > > all the beach all the way down to the low tide mark; where in another state, > > the beach is a public right of way as open for public use as any highway. > > > >SNIP< > > I was told by a NM game warden once, as I unloaded my kayak, that I had > been trespassing on private property. I told him that I hadn't hiked on > any of the private land, and had spent the night on a BLM piece along the > way. He informed me that the river flowing through private land didn't > give right of way, because it wasn't a naviable river(even tho I had just > came down it), and he explained that just standing on the bottom was > criminal trespass. > So much for public beaches. :>) > > James the same is true in colorado, very few rivers are "legally" navigable. if you touch a rock in the river, you are trespassing... and so there isn't another flame war, this law goes back to statehood, 1876. what was considered navigable then is all we "legally" have left. it's been to court many times, and the boaters always lose. mark -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: One kind word can warm three winter months. --Japanese Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There have been several posts about the publics right to traverse navigable waters owned by private parties. New York may have one of the better rules on this issue; last year the State's highest court ruled that the public trust right of navigation on streams that have traditionally been used for navigation may include the right to portage around rocks and obstructions. The court also held that recreational navigation may establish the public navigability of a given water body. New York also allows (infortunately) for the state to grant away the public's right of navigation. Also, the right to navigate does not include the right to fish. So be careful! Please dont take this as legal advice. Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ---------- Matt wrote: > The landowners just don't want us on what they > > have long considered there property even though it legally isn't. There > > have been incidents of paddlers being threateded by an irate landowner > > with a shotgun while standing legally on public property. > Richard wrote: > Dial 911. I've never heard of this happening on a Texas beach. On a > hill > country river, yes, but a public ocean facing beach? Never. > And I respond that this very thing happened to a group of us 3 weekends ago. We were paddling on Barnegat Bay (NJ) and had crossed over to the lighthouse. Just prior to the light is a public municiple parking lot (dirt), used heavily by fisherman and 'water gazers' which is bulkheaded (facing the bay). The bulkhead is necessary due to the amount of wind (waves) and its being located right next to a very busy channel (big wakes). Where the bulkhead ends the water cuts back into a sizable quiet area. On the left is a beach (still part of the municipal lot). To the right and down a ways is a private marina. Now, back out on the bay are some very old pilings, 10 ft off shore, to the right end of the bulkhead and they were at one time a barrier wall. To the right of that is the "motorway" into a private marina. As we paddled in to land on the municipal beach, we were yelled at and threatened by the marina workers. This argument lasted several minutes with us trying to explain that we had a right to be on the water and them screaming the water "belonged" to the marina. Well, now all the fishermen are pissed off and they're yelling (taking our side), the pedestrians are yelling (taking our side). It was very ugly. If the marina dude had had a gun, he certainly would have been firing it over our heads. Since there is NO WHERE else to land and get out of the boats on this side of the bay, we had to exit our boats out on the bay (in the waves and wakes) and standing in waist-deep water hoist all the boats up over the bulkhead. It sucked. Later, the foot police come on their usual rounds and I grab him and explain what had happened. We were all shocked to hear that Mr. Marina had been on the legal side of the law. As the police explained it to us, he owns and insures the marina. The marina apparently is defined as the bottom land AND "all the water covering it" that the "motors" must use to gain access to it. So there you have it, at least here at the Barnegat Bay in NJ. Mr. Marina owns the water (all of it). Let's see. To get to Texas I drive south and then turn right . . . Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Thomas Unger <unger_at_tumtum.com> To: PaddleWise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, September 27, 1999 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point >> Dan Hagen wrote: >> >> [megasnip] >> > I do not think that it is merely selfish to keep quiet and to discourage >> > growth of the sport. Wilderness *is* being loved to death. Those who >> > actively encourage additional use are part of the problem. To paraphrase >> > Matt, once use of a wild area increases significantly we are screwed, >> > whether we allow unchecked growth or whether we start to regulate use. >> > The latter is the lesser of the two evils, but the best alternative is >> > not to encourage increased use in the first place. Again, no one is >> > talking about "banning" new entrants into the sport, or whether they >> > have a "right" to join us. That simply misses the point. If paddling or >> > wilderness travel required more initiative, fewer people would do it and >> > there would be less pressure on sensitive areas. Most people who have a >> > love of wilderness do not use it actively, but rather appreciate it from >> > afar. As active use rises, however, wilderness is threatened. People >> > who make it easier for others to visit sensitive areas are having the >> > effect of degrading these areas. They have a right to do this, but that >> > does not make it a wise course of action. > > >Well said. Since everyone has equal right to go into the wilderness the >only way to keep people out is to keep it remote. Remoteness, both >physical and lack of information, is what kept people away in the past >and is what will keep people away in the future. (that an lousy weather >or otherwise adverse conditions.) So, aside from regulation, our best >hope is to restrict development. That's hard. How do you get >individuals to not start guide services? Not offer water taxi service? >Not run ferrys? Not write guide books and make maps of areas? Not >write stories about their trips and publish on the web or in magazines? > >We can't regulate that either. > >Tom Unger >Seattle. Maybe by pointing out to people the damage that they will be doing by selling out there favorite places. Dan explained very well just what I was trying to say. I also enjoy helping out newbies but I try not to promote the sport to those who have not yet tried it. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Walt, And, uh, just what are you "saturated" on? :-) P.S. I though Matt and I were just legends in our own minds! P.P.S. At least your not looking around for sp*ns*ns!! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd >At 10:53 PM 9/27/99 EDT, you wrote: >>The year 2040 A.D.: >> As I place my kayak at the launch site and gaze out onto the bay, I >>marvel at the thousands of kayakers out there bumping into each other. My >>God, they can hardly turn! >> Hey, there's the grandson of Doug Lloyd and over there >>is Matt Broze's grandnephew.....both in the newbie section. >> People around here still talk about Matt's and Doug's >>funerals. Remember how they floated them out on wooden kayaks and set them on >>fire? Yeah it was quite a sight. Kayaking legends alright....kayaking >>legends. Now where the heck did I put >>that darn paddle float? >> >> Ha Ha, >> Walt Levins >>*************************************************************************** >>PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >>Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >>*************************************************************************** >> >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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