A jurisdiction's attitude towards paying for rescue seems to reflect the economics and traditions of the jurisdiction. In other words, if a nation or state or province feels that rescuing people who engage in risky (or at least behaviour perceived as risky) behaviour will be good for business they will do it. If not, they usually won't unless some tradition or past practice supports it. We should not expect a poor nation to spend a lot of effort and money to rescue wealthy North American tourists for free. On the other hand, where the economics of the matter justify rescues (say, for example, rescuing skiers in avalanch country in British Columbia) the expenditure makes some sense. They want skiers to come to those areas and drop bundles of money so why not pay provide rescues if it draws more bucks to the area. In some countries they have a tradition of rescuing people in danger at sea. Economics may foce them to change policies as time goes on and the number of stupid, careless, or excessively daring people increases. We should not confuse tradition with obligation. Many of these traditions formed at a time when most of the people on the sea worked there. Rescues made good economic as well as civic sense. But we should use caution in appling the circumstances surrounding one activity to all activities. For example, rescuing people in car accidents. Society provides the roads and excersizes control over that use (to varying extents) and frequently charges a fee in the form of taxation for that use. This creates a strong connection between the user and provider in the form of expectations. So much so that some people sue society (the government) when they perceive it has failed in its role. Governments don't supply the sea although they do excersize some control over its use in coastal waters. Many paddlers would rise up in indignation if governments required a license to paddle (do any of you remember this topic dicsussed here!!!!). I suspect many who would resent this intrusion into their "rights" also would object if government failed to rescue them for free. Of such inconsistencies are our lives composed. As for myself, I refuse and always have refused to take cell phones, EPIRBs or any other device for calling for rescue. I prefer knowing that my survival depends upon my own abilities not society. I resent the intrusions of society on my life as it is and don't need more when I try to escape. Should everyone do likewise? Not if they don't want to. Should I pay for rescuing others who have a different philosophy? Sometimes. I prefer to let those who supply rescue services decide who pays and who doesn't. I imagine they get pretty good at recognising stupidity. Unfortunately government agencies are shackled by rules and regulations born out of our fears that they may make a mistake and an unrealistic expectation of perfection in government services. In response to this irrational expectation governmental agencies tend towards rigid rules and regulations that do not always fit circumstances. "We don't provide that service" works better than, 'We made a mistake". Now that you have read this ignore it. It is just my opinion. If you don't agree don't bother arguing with me I won't change my mind. :) Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 08:26:51 -0400 John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: . . . > As for myself, I refuse and always have refused to take cell phones, EPIRBs or any other >device for calling for rescue. What John isn't telllng us is that he knows full well that if he called in for help and was rescued, the rescuers would take one look at him and toss him back in the drink. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> As for myself, I refuse and always have refused to take cell phones, EPIRBs > or any other device for calling for rescue. This is of course a persoal choice of everybody. I'm afraid that now when EPIRB are small and relatively inexpensive (even those with built-in GPS, providing 100m precison), there will be many people tempted to carry them, - and some will actually use them - thinking that they are already in desperate situation. I really wish that some rigid regulations were in place, makin him or her to pay for EPIRB use where there was no life-threatening situation. (And these fines should be printed in bold letters in GPS manual :-) - this would stop at least some of such users). With a EPIRB/PLB the rescue party can't ask any questions that might help them to make a decision - they only see the distress signal from specified location. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex wrote; > I really wish that some rigid regulations were in > place, makin him or her to pay for EPIRB use where there was no > life-threatening situation. (And these fines should be printed in bold > letters in GPS manual :-) - this would stop at least some of such users). > With a EPIRB/PLB the rescue party can't ask any questions that might help > them to make a decision - they only see the distress signal from specified > location. Hmmm, I suppose if the rescuers went to rescue some one who didn't need it they would not be prosecuted for making them need it. :) I seem to recall that in Canada fraudulent use of an EPIRB was illegal punishable by being tied naked to an pingo in the height of bug season or something like that. :) My understanding of the law is tenuous at best but colorful (according to my son the lawyer). Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I seem to recall that in Canada fraudulent use of an EPIRB was illegal > punishable by being tied naked to an pingo in the height of bug season > or something like that. :) My understanding of the law is tenuous at > best but colorful (according to my son the lawyer). Not just bug season, black fly season. GaryJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John said: >> As for myself, I refuse and always have refused to take cell phones, > EPIRBs >> or any other device for calling for rescue. > For what it's worth, my radio was stashed deep in my hatch the last time I was out on the Columbia Bar. I agree with John, one should be able to extricate oneself from trouble of their own making. I do, however, normally like my VHF radio handy, as I'm better informed and more a part of the marine community when my radio is available and even turned on to listen for other water-users in distress, offering head-ups, etc. There was a recent incident around Victoria shores where a group of kayakers came to the aid of a drownings, out-rigger rudder-man, and were able to perform rescue breathing after he fainted into the water with the flu. In terms of John's core sentiments, I do partially disagree: I think there are maritime situations that can arise that are beyond the paddler's control, and the ability to summon help may be a welcome thing -- if not for your own peace of mind, then at least for that of your family's. And perhaps SAR staff's too. I mean, imagine Chris Duff breaking his boat along New Zealand's inhospitable shores, no radio, overdue, and the searcher's possibly out in rough, dangerous conditions looking... With my rescue experience off the Storm Islands, I certainly know one paddler's life was probably saved due to the ability to contact the authorities. His only real mistake was choosing his paddling partners. He did not carry a radio, but probably appreciated that one was dug out of someone's hatch eventually when all efforts at self-extrication from the danger disintegrated. The Coasties were extremely happy the rescue was called in during the closing hours of daylight, as opposed to a night search and subsequent long, possibly drawn out multi-day search in an area of frequent storm activity. Nevertheless, I cried like a bratty baby when the rescue was called-in (John's type of thinking forming a big knot in my normally self-sufficient stomach). Part of my personal route planning now for solo trips includes pro-activity with respect to local boating channels, knowledge of flight-path routes, out-of-the-way Fishfarm locations, etc. I also have a list of water-taxi companies and calling information for bail-out arrangements, and have even worked out prices ahead of time, including contingencies, logistics and maximum mileage-ranges with possible vendors. This is part of responsible paddling. This is part of your responsibility when planning routes. This is part of being a mature paddler -- even when we (well, me anyway) don't want to be. If you do carry a VHF radio, etc, know how to use your equipment. There was another incident recently where a rescue needed to be called in, and the paddler using her VHF didn't even know how the thing worked. If your one of those people, turn it on next time your out on the water and make some chit-chat with the local boaters. Try a little sculling with your one free arm and paddle, while you work the radio with the other hand. If you are paddling in truly remote wilderness, work something out ahead of time with a for-hire commercial pilot, etc. In Canada, at least, our federal and military rescue-available resources are greatly diminished, not to mention the fact that pre-arrangement with a private-sector partner laces you on the moral high-ground (better have that Visa limit available, too). Doug Lloyd Number of CG rescues - 1 Number of Aux. CG rescues - 1 Number of in-water self-rescues - approx. 10 (aka - wet-reentry) Number of ocean capsize rescues - approx. 100 (aka - Eskimo Roll, excluding surf-play) Number of imminent ocean capsize rescues - very approx. 10,000 (aka - bracing) Victoria BC *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Never been rescued. Never needed an extraction from the wilderness. But, I might need one, in future. Like some others, I have at times felt I "would not accept a rescue" and did not notify the authorities before going on a tricky climb or hike. That was 30-plus years ago, and as a single, lone guy, no one would have known until way too late, had I gone missing. But times have changed. Nowadays, if I were overdue, I could not prevent my loved ones from notifying the authorities, and a search would ensue, even if I purposely did not tell them where I went. As the Rev. Carter's sad incident near Sitka illustrates, rescuers place themselves at risk just looking for someone in trouble, let alone extracting them. Consequently, I feel it is my moral duty to decrease the chance they would be scrambled to come looking for my sorry ass. If I have a VHF with me, I can use it to tell the USCG **not** to come looking for me: I'm fine, just sitting on the beach, waiting for the nastiness to pass, enjoying the solitude. In fact, that was the original reason I bought one. As for an EPIRB/PLB: I don't like them, and would not use one or take one with me unless I were going on an extended trip to some completely off the wall, out of the way place where if I got into trouble, there would be no chance of any help from passersby. Then I might take one along. The guy, a year ago, who went back to retrieve his lost canoe (in New York State? -- memory fails) who got nailed with a big fine for activating his PLB in conditions the authorities deemed not warranting its use is a bellwether for PLB's: no one knows what the guidelines are for their activation. Caveat emptor. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's the scoop on the canoeist who got fined for his (second) use of a PLB. This was discussed here quite a bit in March/April. Anybody know how this turned out? http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2004_2/article_243.shtml (down about three screens). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
No1 AND No2 - wow :-)... I can understand Big Brother's vexation; it makes impressin that he (BB) was affected by emotions in this case, and SAR crew were people who saw the picture better. Even though on occasion No.2 there *might* be some mistakes in trip planning, - he countered on the boat as his fast way out of there (what if the river would have frozen again)? But this is just my opinion. Probably, the very first paddler in North America (but not in 48 states) that was rescued due to PLB, were those 2 guys (one canadian and one australian) who paddled in a folding Klepper Quattro somehwere in Northern Canada. Eventually they've found themselves on top of moving and crashing ice on sea, jumped out of the boat and activated PLB. I think Dave read this link - it was about a year ago. If I recall it right, when the boat has already disappeared under the ice, and there was no safe spot on the ice moving and breaking all around them, they heard chop-chop-chop of rescue helicopter. > Here's the scoop on the canoeist who got fined for his (second) use of a PLB. > This was discussed here quite a bit in March/April. Anybody know how this > turned out? > > http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2004_2/article_243.shtml (down about > three screens). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 4, 2004, at 7:26 AM, John Winters wrote: > > As for myself, I refuse and always have refused to take cell phones, > EPIRBs or any other device for calling for rescue. For the purposes of debate. If there is a good chance that a search will be mounted without your consent, is it a responsible act to have tools that will make that search easier. For example, if you tell your wife you will be back in 7 days and after 10 days she calls the authorities, you now have a search whether you wanted one or not. Not knowing your relationship with your wife, I apologize if this scenario is impossible. But is it better to have equipment that will make the search easier, if there is going to be a search anyways? I occasionally carry a VHF, but the only time I've used it is to call in the sighting of a distress flare. A sailboat had drifted into a tide rip and was feeling scared. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; > For the purposes of debate. If there is a good chance that a search will > be mounted without your consent, is it a responsible act to have tools > that will make that search easier. For example, if you tell your wife you > will be back in 7 days and after 10 days she calls the authorities, you > now have a search whether you wanted one or not. Not knowing your > relationship with your wife, I apologize if this scenario is impossible. > But is it better to have equipment that will make the search easier, if > there is going to be a search anyways? I have a living will. I expect my wife and children to honor it. It tells when and what life saving measures to take and under what conditions to stop them once begun. It also tells them what to do with my remains. I expect them to honor that as well. The same applies to my wilderness trips. I prefer a different question. Is it a responsible act to initiate a search contrary to some one's express desires? I see no reason why I should make it easy for them or anyone else to make a choice contrary to my will. In fact, taking equipment that makes a search easier may imply that I really don't mean what I say. Either I mean it or I don't. Occasionally one has no choice. For example (there may be others) if you travel with some one else it often pays to respect their wishes to avoid an unpleasant confrontation if they insist on certain gear. Faced with an adamant person I usually give in but don't travel with them again. Also, some governments insist on certain gear. I don't like it but I respect the law. I consider this kind of thing a PERSONAL philosophy. If anyone disagrees and insists on searching for me of their volition then have fun. Enjoy the challenge. :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 10:27:58 -0400 John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: > > If anyone disagrees and insists on >searching for me of their volition then have fun. Enjoy the challenge. :) Hmmm . . . . You might be on to something there. Fumbling around trying to find Franklin and others led to much adventuring in the low central Canadian arctic, but they had little involvement in points east. John, if you would be so kind as to go missing in Ungava or northern Labrador, then we could have a jolly good time searching for you in an area that has previously been ignored when it comes to major futile searches. Cheers to the Empire and all that! Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 6, 2004, at 9:27 AM, John Winters wrote: > I consider this kind of thing a PERSONAL philosophy. If anyone > disagrees and insists on searching for me of their volition then have > fun. Enjoy the challenge. :) If it were just your wife doing the searching, I would say this is a sufficient answer. However, while your wife or someone else may call you in missing, it is rarely that person who puts them-self at risk in the search. One example of how equipment such as an EPIRB might help in this situation is if the search team knows you have an EPIRB, but you have not yet turned it on, they will have good reason not to search for you. Also while your wife may agree to not do anything to save your life, she may after 6 months decide that the probate paperwork would be a lot easier if she could point to a body. So, despite your best efforts you will may end up with a search team looking for you. Do you have any responsibility to minimize the risk undertaken by the search team? I generally agree with your philosophy. One of my friends I paddle with is under orders from his wife to carry a cell phone and call in everyday. This only serves to make her worry needlessly when there is no cellphone coverage, and causes my friend to spend a lot of time looking for coverage to keep her from worrying. It is easier when there is no possibility for making contact, then the absence of contact is not itself a problem. If we were to have a satellite phone, she would see no reason why we couldn't call twice a day, and there would be no way to explain that water got on the battery and the thing died. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> In fact, taking equipment that makes a search > easier may imply that I really don't mean what I say. Either I mean it or I > don't. Actually, there is a third choice. You meant it when you said it but now, perhaps having stumbled off a beach log and fractured your wrist miles from any place, you have changed your mind :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; > If it were just your wife doing the searching, I would say this is a > sufficient answer. However, while your wife or someone else may call you > in missing, it is rarely that person who puts them-self at risk in the > search. One example of how equipment such as an EPIRB might help in this > situation is if the search team knows you have an EPIRB, but you have not > yet turned it on, they will have good reason not to search for you. Suppose I take an EPIRB but leave instructios that I will never set it off. What then? Having an EPIRB and then giving instructions that say you will never use it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Sounds like one becomes a slave to the EPIRB if you have one. What did they do before we had EPIRBs? If a person left instructions saying don't search then what would you have done? Has anyone ever disappeared without activating a search? How many missing persons are there for whom no search has ever been initiated? > Also while your wife may agree to not do anything to save your life, she > may after 6 months decide that the probate paperwork would be a lot easier > if she could point to a body. So, despite your best efforts you will may > end up with a search team looking for you. Do you have any responsibility > to minimize the risk undertaken by the search team? If she wants to speed things up that becomes her business not mine. Why is she in a hurry, Nick? You know something I don't :) Should we assume that because we can search we must and that because we have these devices we must use them? What about these new locator chips they want to put in people to protect us from terrorists? Sounds like a good idea doesn't it? I mean, we have them, they could be put to good use, shouldn't everyone have one? It lends a whole new dimension to the phrase "The good old days". Snip >. If we were to have a satellite phone, she would see no reason why we >couldn't call twice a day, and there would be no way to explain that water >got on the battery and the thing died. Technology carries with it burdens and can enslave us even while seeming to be good for us.. Richard wrote; > John, if you would be so kind as to go missing in Ungava or northern > Labrador, then we could have a jolly good time searching for you in an > area that has previously been ignored when it comes to major futile > searches. Cheers to the Empire and all that! Richard, you know my feelings about telling the world about those places I go that I would prefer to keep quiet and untraveled. The Kimosippi River is but one example where I have endeavored to keep the riff-raff out (not always with success it seems). It would pain me to think that my private places would get over run by club-footed rescuers scattering their gum wrappers across the barren wastes. Bad enough that the natives leave their surplus snowmobiles every where. Cheers John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:09:32 -0400 John Winters <jdwinters_at_eastlink.ca> wrote: > >Richard, you know my feelings about telling the world about those places I go that I would >prefer to keep quiet and untraveled. The Kimosippi River is but one example where I have >endeavored to keep the riff-raff out (not always with success it seems). It would pain me >to think that my private places would get over run by club-footed rescuers scattering their >gum wrappers across the barren wastes. Bad enough that the natives leave their surplus >snowmobiles every where. > It is the world's loss that you will not provide people with directions to and trip notes for the Kimosippi. That such a magnificient river should remain unknown to wilderness paddlers is a pity. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Richard wrote; >> >> It is the world's loss that you will not provide people with directions >> to and trip notes for the Kimosippi. That such a magnificient river >> should remain unknown to wilderness paddlers is a pity. > > The world's loss is my gain. > The whites too shall pass -perhaps sooner than other tribes- Continue to contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. When the Buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, THE SECRET CORNERS OF THE FOREST HEAVY WITH THE SCENT OF MANY MEN, and the view of the hills blotted by talking wires. Where is the thicket, gone. Where is the eagle, gone. And what is it to say goodbye to the swift and the hunt, the end of living and the beginning of survival Chief Seattle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The whites too shall pass -perhaps sooner than other tribes- Continue to >contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. >When the Buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, THE >SECRET CORNERS OF THE FOREST HEAVY WITH THE SCENT OF MANY MEN, and the >view of the hills blotted by talking wires. Where is the thicket, gone. >Where is the eagle, gone. And what is it to say goodbye to the swift and >the hunt, the end of living and the beginning of survival >Chief Seattle While many of us agree with Chief Seattle's sentiments...it is important to note that the above words were NOT spoken or penned by Chief Seattle. The history of this piece of urban mythological prose is quite interesting if one digs into it a bit. K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It is also important to note that many of us do not agree with these sentiments. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- >The whites too shall pass -perhaps sooner than other tribes- Continue to >contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. >When the Buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, THE >SECRET CORNERS OF THE FOREST HEAVY WITH THE SCENT OF MANY MEN, and the >view of the hills blotted by talking wires. Where is the thicket, gone. >Where is the eagle, gone. And what is it to say goodbye to the swift and >the hunt, the end of living and the beginning of survival >Chief Seattle While many of us agree with Chief Seattle's sentiments....... K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> It is also important to note that many of us do not agree with these > sentiments. Unforutantely, opinion on this matter won't prevent us from suffocating on our own waste. Population is growing, resouces and wilderness areas are diminishing. Big 7 have problems with over-production of lunnecessary items, and 3rd world countries are too busy with feeding themselves to worry about wilderness. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not sure where you live, but where I live we are not suffocating on our own waste. I don't seem to be lacking any resources. I have everything I need and then some. Also, I doubt anyone is over producing anything on a regular basis since that would be financially self limiting. If any of you people out there in email land are suffocating on your own waste or lacking basic living resources I would like to hear from you so I can try and get you some help for your miserable state. If so, be especially careful not to let the "waste" get onto your computer keyboard or you won't be able to send me an email. Also I would like to know about any companies who are overproducing so I can sell their stock short. * While I have some sympathy for "native" Americans for the way they were treated by our forefathers (no guilt though because my kin mostly weren't here yet), I would hardly consider the leaders of a vanquished peoples to be an experts on the way life should be lived by others. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net] On Behalf Of alex Unforutantely, opinion on this matter won't prevent us from suffocating on our own waste. Population is growing, resouces and wilderness areas are diminishing. Big 7 have problems with over-production of lunnecessary items, and 3rd world countries are too busy with feeding themselves to worry about wilderness. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:03:24 -0800 "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> wrote: > If any of you people out there in email land are suffocating on your own > waste or lacking basic living resources I would like to hear from you so I > can try and get you some help for your miserable state. I was when I was living in London, Ontario. Chronic wheezing and coughing. Been healthy as a horse again since moving back north. As far as paddling goes, the city's sewage overflow discharge was immediately above the club. I'm extremely fortunate to have the best of both worlds: wilderness and a decent job, but I fear that the wilderness is rapidly being reduced in my region (Northwest Ontario). Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>steve wrote: > While I have some sympathy for "native" Americans for the way they were > treated by our forefathers (no guilt though because my kin mostly weren't > here yet), I would hardly consider the leaders of a vanquished peoples to > be > an experts on the way life should be lived by others. Yet you paddle the boats that evolved from their way of life. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7 Dec 2004 at 13:03, Steve Brown wrote: > I'm not sure where you live, but where I live we are not suffocating > on our own waste. I don't seem to be lacking any resources. I have > everything I need and then some. Also, I doubt anyone is over > producing anything on a regular basis since that would be financially > self limiting. You are either extremely lucky or very ignorant of your own existance. Look up the effects of air pollution on decreasing life expectancy in North American cities. Consider that a significant part of your resources, and much of your oil, is imported. Also, contact your local senator or rep for information on how much of your tax dollars are spent on financially supporting food production that goes nowhere. Then look up the same for other countries. Food production is the most overly subsidized industry in the OECD and there is definitely overproduction. Starvation in other parts of the world is due to an inability to deal with transporting food from places where it's overproduced to places where it's scarce. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, with our decreasing life expentancy, I long for the good ol' days of the 1800's when the air was clean and you were lucky to make 40! > -----Original Message----- > You are either extremely lucky or very ignorant of your own > existance. Look up the effects of air pollution on decreasing life > expectancy in North American cities. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know. I must be ignorant because I don't accept all this politically correct garbage as the gospel truth. The air in the Los Angeles California area is cleaner than it has ever been for the time it has been inhabited by humans. A trip to the Museum in downtown LA will reveal a picture of smog in this area over 100 years ago and it wasn't new then. Wood fires are worse than current automobiles for smog. Speaking of automobiles, when I was a kid, I can remember smog alerts when it hurt to breathe at all and visibility was only a couple hundred feet. That doesn't happen anymore. I have all the oil I need, I have all the food I need. I would be shocked if anyone on this list has a different experience. If so, loose your internet connection and buy food with the money. I will concede that food is overproduced in the US as a government subsidy to farmers. It doesn't fall victim to natural economic forces because the government does it at my expense without my consent. OK, but we do ship some of that food elsewhere. This allows us to help some people and also exercise some political leverage on the people that need it. Also, the surplus insures that I have plenty of it. I'm in favor of shipping more of it to people who need it though. In any case, starvation in other parts of the world is not because the USA over produces food, it is because they under produce it. We should help where we can, but we didn't create the problem. Nevertheless, I don't view this issue as the global meltdown of life as we know it. It's not perfect, but it actually serves Americans quite well because we never run out of food. My recollection is that fossil and other records of "native" Americans indicate that their food supply was not nearly as robust as our. It seems to me our way of life works better. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- You are either extremely lucky or very ignorant of your own existance. Look up the effects of air pollution on decreasing life expectancy in North American cities. Consider that a significant part of your resources, and much of your oil, is imported. Also, contact your local senator or rep for information on how much of your tax dollars are spent on financially supporting food production that goes nowhere. Then look up the same for other countries. Food production is the most overly subsidized industry in the OECD and there is definitely overproduction. Starvation in other parts of the world is due to an inability to deal with transporting food from places where it's overproduced to places where it's scarce. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote: >If any of you people out there in email >land are suffocating on your own waste or >lacking basic living resources I would like >to hear from you G'Day Steve and Paddlewise, One of the reasons I prefer sea kayaking to river kayaking is that rivers here are just too degraded. In Australia as in much of the rest of the world our ground water is becoming brackish and many of our rivers are contaminated. For example, not that its that important, but the Hawkebury Classic 114km kayak race was nearly cancelled this year because of blue green algae blooms. Interesting to note you can use brackish water and blue green algae to make biodiesel very effectively. Wouldn't want to practice rolling in or drinking from a stream containing such algae though, apparently it can be quite toxic. Smarter use of water in: agriculture, environmental control and cities, is a topic of intense debate in Oz right now. I've got enormous faith in our ability to overcome obstacles especially when we collaborate. But what are the implications for paddling anywhere in 50 years time. It could be a very different experience to the one we value today, not worse just different. For example consider the likely role of marine biomass in food and fuel production. And the possible role of kayaks as energy efficient vehicles in such an enterprise:~) Isn't it imperative then that those of us who have access to hidden places, record for others what we see without revealing the location to the greedy or inept. The world might then understand the value of these places now and in the future can at least relish the memory of wnat once was. I would willingly buy such a book written by the Rev Bob Carter or John Winters or Dr. Peregrine Inverbon, Melissa Reese, Doug Lloyd, Dave Kruger, Natalie Wiest and all you other great contributors from Paddlewise. Of course this isn't an underhand attempt to receive lots of great trip reports because I'm temporarily incapacitated in the south:~) All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I'm not sure where you live, but where I live we are not suffocating on our > own waste. I don't seem to be lacking any resources. I have everything I > need and then some. Also, I doubt anyone is over producing anything on a > regular basis since that would be financially self limiting. Pretty close to Chief's Seattle area - BC. A couple of days ago I've heard on TV, that if it was a country, it would've been (don't remember - 3rd? single-digit number anyway) country in the world in greenhouse gas emissions (though method of calculation wasn't clear - per capita, or per sq ft). Too much dependence on cars in Greater Vancouver area, poorly developed public transportation. Same in Seattle, - if not worse. Over-production goes hand in hand with over-consumption. Are two cars per family necessary? Yes, if there is no other way of getting to work. Otherwise - no. Is new car necessary, when previous one is still fine, albeit wife would like to show "them" that your family can afford a new one? Yes, - because nobody would convince her in the opposite. People have tons of useless stuff in their homes, - merely going to garage sales would reveal this pretty well :-)... Most of it was unnecessary at the moment of purchase. Slippery ground, anyway... Are our kayaks really necessary? We don't have to hunt or fish to survive... To my best knowledge, most resources are aren't renewable. We might have them "enough", our children might not. I'm not even sure that we have them "enough" - otherwise gas prices in North America wouldn't depend on Iraq and Middle-East situation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote: - >It is also important to note that many >of us do not agree with these sentiments. G'Day, Leaving aside the first phrase about 'whites', I read it as a rather sensible warning, not so much a sentiment. There's a fine line though between making a beautiful area well enough understood that people value and protect it and so well known that it is destroyed. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In Kimosippi country, it is open season for dam developers. The more paddlers know an area, the greater the chance that they and other environmentalists might have in protecting the area from far more serious damage than that brought by paddlers. In other words, protect it or lose it. And if you want to protet it, you had better popularize it. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/7/2004 10:39:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, keith.wrage_at_charter.net writes: > >The whites too shall pass -perhaps sooner than other tribes- Continue to > >contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. > >When the Buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses all tamed, THE > >SECRET CORNERS OF THE FOREST HEAVY WITH THE SCENT OF MANY MEN, and the > >view of the hills blotted by talking wires. Where is the thicket, gone. > >Where is the eagle, gone. And what is it to say goodbye to the swift and > >the hunt, the end of living and the beginning of survival > >Chief Seattle > > While many of us agree with Chief Seattle's sentiments...it is important to > note that the above words were NOT spoken or penned by Chief Seattle. The > history of this piece of urban mythological prose is quite interesting if > one digs into it a bit. > Try this link to see an interesting article on the subject. While discussing that, you might be interested to know Chief Joseph's "speech" is thought by many to be a composite dramatization of what he actually said that day on the northern plains of Montana. http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/spring_1985_chief_seattle.html Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers, What I got out of the chief speech reminded me of what I heard from a comedian. It was something like our progress has gone from being a monkey eating a banana in the jungle to a human being heating up a Hot Pocket in microwave at a 7/11. It is this progress that has probably driven us all to be kayakers. Duane Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I knew when I posted the quote that therer was a dispute over who actually wrote them and should in hindsight have said "attributed to". To point I was trying to make was about keeping secret special places in the wilderness. When I first started white water raft guiding on the new river in West Virginia back in the late 70's. There was a trail leading to a spectacular over look of the lower gorge the locals called "beauty mountain" It was a wonderful place just to go and take in the splendor and meditate on life. For a while most of the guides kept the trail location secret for we feared more and more people would find it and overrun it. Eventually enough guides brought their best tipping customers there and soon the crowds showed up and so did those ready to party. Were we selfish in wanting to keep this special place a secret? Yes! Were we wrong? Debatable! The point is when wilderness becomes inundated with people it loses the essence of being wilderness. Crowds bring pollution, enviornmental destruction, and noise. Not to mention soiled soggy piles of toliet paper. My pet peve is to see an article in an outdoor magazine saying: The top 10 secret wilderness camping/hiking/ canoeing ect. spots revealed. Once every one goes there it is no longer special. I don't begrudge someone not wanting to reveal a secret spot. After all they appearently went to great effort to find it. I have found in my travels to take a great effort to discover a secret spot adds to the wonder and joy of being there. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Steve Brown" wrote: > I'm not sure where you live, but where I live we are not suffocating on our > own waste. Interesting. Just out of curiousity, is your home water supply treated, or can you just run outside and dip your cup in the creek? ~~~~~~~~~~ Theirs is a hidden land; wolf-haunted, Stormy highlands with perilous paths, Where mountain torrents plunge through the mists And flow unseen... -Beowulf ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello All, Is it fair to keep others from our "secret" places but still continue to go there ourselves? Certainly, they will remain unspoiled if not many people tramp over them but it seems a little elitist to say that only the few of us who will treat the sites well should go to them. Perhaps, it would be better if we stopped searching for "secret" places or as outdoors people agree that we are just not going to explore certain areas so that they remain unspoiled. Jordan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Cool! You all do that so I can have those areas for myself and my friends. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- Hello All, ...... Perhaps, it would be better if we stopped searching for "secret" places or as outdoors people agree that we are just not going to explore certain areas so that they remain unspoiled. Jordan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>I know. I must be ignorant because I don't accept all this politically correct garbage as the gospel truth. And yadda yadda yadda I was born and raised in sunny Southern California, where you also live Steve. I have witnessed first hand the consumption of the free spaces where I used to hunt and camp and explore. I grew up listening to stories from my father, who also grew up here, about how wonderful this place used to be when he was younger. Now I find myself telling the same sort of stories to my kids about my own youth. We do not have access to our beaches like most other states do in that a large portion of our coastline, or at least access to it, is now private property. According to law anything below the mean high tide line is public access. But just try to spend the night on that "public" land and you will most likely find yourself pleading your case to the judge. How may times a year are our beaches closed due to sewage leaks? Every single camping guide to Southern California that I have read in the last twenty or so years says that ALL water in our local wilderness environments should be filtered due to contaminants. The Fish and Game regulations have warnings about eating ANY seafood that might have come from certain locations - Palos Verdes, an area that you frequently paddle, is one of them. I have a book, "Fifty Golden Years," which was signed by the author in 1957, about the history of Newport Beach from 1909 to 1956 which records, among other significant historical highlights, the outstanding fishery that used to exist here. It's pretty much all gone now. Yet you smugly deny that we are using up our resources. I guess ignorance is bliss. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know, my ignorance is pitiful. If only I could become a self loathing liberal, ashamed of the success of my culture everything would be better. I didn't say that there is no habitat reduction or no pollution. I said I am not suffocating in my own waste or lacking basic resources (or even indulgent ones). Those gross exaggerations are what trigger the sharp polarization in views of the environment. Of course I wish I could hunt in the places I used to hunt, but people built houses there. I could be mad about that and try to demand that the house I was living in be the last one built, but that does seem a bit self-centered. Doesn't it? I haven't noticed anyone on this list volunteering to tear down their home and return the place where they live back to its original state. If any of you did I would be more open to your view and if several did I might actually begin to question my views on this subject. We use resources, but are we using them up? Did "native" Americans ever hunt out an area and move to another? Of course they did. Predator / prey cycles are normal and self limiting. When fishing production in an area becomes unprofitable, fishermen are forced to move elsewhere. It's a cycle that has been in play for as long as humans have existed. Well, actually that cycle predates humans, because animal predators do it and even herbivores do the exact same thing with vegetation. Purifying water? Giardia has been around for a long time. It is spread by animals as well as humans and is not a product of modern civilization. You think diarrhea from bad water is a modern invention? Whoever made that statement about "suffocating in their own waste" undoubtedly had fewer resources, more sickness, less free time, and likely a shorter life span than anyone on this list. That statement is not only inaccurate; it seems to be the desperate venting of a man whose culture is being displaced by a more successful one. Almost like "You'll be sorry when I'm gone" I am in favor of sensible habitat protection, increased coastal access, water pollution reduction, and well thought out game management, but hysterical exaggerations about the environment are not going to get my endorsement or gain my cooperation in making things better. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- I was born and raised in sunny Southern California, where you also live Steve. I have witnessed first hand the consumption of the free spaces where I used to hunt and camp and explore. I grew up listening to stories from my father, who also grew up here, about how wonderful this place used to be when he was younger.... We do not have access to our beaches like most other states do in that a large portion of our coastline, or at least access to it, is now private property. ...... How may times a year are our beaches closed due to sewage leaks? Every single camping guide to Southern California that I have read in the last twenty or so years says that ALL water in our local wilderness environments should be filtered due to contaminants. The Fish and Game regulations have warnings about eating ANY seafood that might have come from certain locations - Palos Verdes, an area that you frequently paddle, is one of them. I have a book, "Fifty Golden Years," which was signed by the author in 1957, about the history of Newport Beach from 1909 to 1956 which records, among other significant historical highlights, the outstanding fishery that used to exist here. ....... I guess ignorance is bliss. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 05:27:54 -0800 "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> wrote: > I know, my ignorance is pitiful. If only I could become a self loathing > liberal, ashamed of the success of my culture everything would be better. That's a rediculously unfounded and extraordinarily rude thing to say. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I suspect most paddlers harbor some appreciation or respect for the environment in which we paddle, or they'd just get a rowing machine and paddle in front of the telly. That said, this is a paddling forum. Since someone quite inadvertantly let the genie out of the bottle, the messages regarding man's role in the universe are beginning to outnumber those I get for drugs and organ enhancement. May I respectfully submit that those who are pursuing this (very worthy!) line of discussion may find a better forum at one of the following addresses: http://www.sierraclub.org/ http://www.bcca.org/ief/ (a Baha'm-inspired organization addressing the environment and sustainable development) http://www.epa.gov/ http://www.cyburbia.org/ (Talk about planning, cities, the built environment or anything else on your mind, with hundreds of other Cyburbia users from around the world.) hDevelopment) Fair winds, Carey *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 09:48:50 -0500 "Carey Parks" <cparks_at_fuse.net> wrote: > > That said, this is a paddling forum. So discussion of protection of the paddling environment is central to paddling. For example, on Lake Superior, there are three hot spots for sea kayakers: Wawa, where paddlers are fighting a proposed quarry; Terrace Bay, where paddlers have been instrumental in bringing in a National Marine Conservation Area; and the Apostles, where sea kayaking and environmentalism are combined by the Inland Sea Society and it's major symposium. If you personally are not into the paddling environment, fair enough, but others, such as myself, are. So given my druthers, I'd prefer to see more discussions of the paddling environment, and what we can do to preserve it. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After testing an Outback oven with my 20+ year old MSR on-or-off stove, its clear that I need something that provides much better flame regulation. Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer and for precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the best choice if simmering and flame control is of first priority? Thanks, Brian Curtiss *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use my MSR DragonFly with my Outback oven with success. As with all MSRs, the noise level is slightly annoying. FWIW, the Outback oven is one camp luxury that I love. I have a small isobutane canister stove that works well (and is tiny!) but I was disappointed that when I ran it full out boiling water the canister frosted up and stove performance dropped. Ambient temp was roughly 50 deg F. Have others had this experience with this type of stove? I know people talk about poor low temp performance of these stoves but I always thought they were talking about < 40 deg F. Also, white gas is MUCH cheaper to run than the canisters. K *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Definitely MSR DragonFly! Three thumbs up! The stove is perfect, except for the noise. But on the flip side, I feel such a relief when I finally turn it off; that feeling alone well justifies the extra noise. Also, when you travel alone, you may actually enjoy the noise; it makes you feel that you've got a companion :) In the case if the jet gets dirty, this clever stove has a built-in jet shaker; so you can clean it up by simply shaking the stove head. Make sure if you buy one off the Internet, get the model with the new pump; I think it is 2004 model. I''ve got mine from http://www.backcountry.com/ and I highly recommend that store. Periodically they put MSR equipment on sale, so you may want to wait if you're not in the rush. Vic. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use 2 stoves that simmer quite well. I use the MSR dragonfly for small groups it is a multi-fuel stove that does a nice job on simmer, but it is better for small groups. For large groups I use the Coleman one burner stove with a propane cylinder. The Dragonfly is a little slow for larger groups; I'll use it for 1 to 3 people. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian: I have an Optimus multi fuel that is basicaly the same as the MSR (that I have as well) but better built. No plastic parts. All cast aluminum and titanium and can be fully dissassembled. All screws no rivets. So it is easy to maintain and repair. Optimus and Primus make very nice multyfuel adjustable stoves. they burn kero, diesel, avgas, car gas, or white gas. Primus even has the optional converter accessory so you can attach a butane canister (MSR type.) I believe MSR has also steped up to the plate and is now making an adjustable stove. The only disadvantage is the adjustable Primus/Optimus type are quite noisy as they do not have a flame diffusser as the old MSRs but have a single hole jet w/ a smal dish type diffuser on top. check the link out: http://www.optimus.se/products/nova/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Curtiss" <bc_at_asdi.com> > After testing an Outback oven with my 20+ year old MSR on-or-off > stove, its clear that I need something that provides much better > flame regulation. Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer > and for precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the > best choice if simmering and flame control is of first priority? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian, Cheaper than any of the others suggested so far, and pretty good on the simmer: the Coleman Exponent Dual Fuel Featherlight 442, which burns white gas and unleaded gasoline. Not as good for simmering as the cannister stoves, but goes low enough for the Outback, I believe. Of course, Coleman fuel (aka white gas) cost is 1/4th that of the cannisters; unleaded gas, 1/16th. http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=8169781&memberId=12500226 -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Curtiss" <bc_at_asdi.com> >> After testing an Outback oven with my 20+ year old MSR on-or-off >> stove, its clear that I need something that provides much better >> flame regulation. Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer >> and for precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the >> best choice if simmering and flame control is of first priority? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How about a pressurized alcohol burning stove? I carry a Trangia Mini as a backup if all else fails but wish that I could get away with only one fuel source. Anyone know of such an item as a pressurized alcohol stove> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The best simmering stove I have found is the old Coleman 505 "Pocket" stove. The ones from 15-20 years ago are the ones to get. They have TWO controls, one that acts as the classic "turn up to light, left to run and right to off" knob, and another that combines an orifice cleaning tool with a very precise and functional simmering control. More recent versions have only a single knob, that is supposed to combine the left, up and right knob with simmering control. It doesn't work, it is digital. If it looks like it is simmering, it is really dying slowing, and will go out when least expected. DON'T get one of these! The best source of these old stoves is garage sales. I bought one to replace my venerable 1978 model for C$20. The old one I gave away to someone who was similarly frustrated with the inability of many stoves to simmer. The old one still ran great, but too many pasta and oatmeal boil-overs had rotted away the lower wind guard under the burner. These are good stoves, robust and quite field-strippable (when the oatmeal boils over!) with a pair of pliers. I have had way too many problems with MSR's that haven't been maintained to trust them. The next best bet are the simple propane stoves that take the screw-on bottle. Anywhere from $15 - $30 apiece. Simpler to operate, simmer well, cheap, but you wind up carrying heavy cylinders. They don't work well below freezing, either. Have fun. Rob. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> cheap, but you wind up carrying heavy cylinders. They don't work well > below freezing, either. I can't comment on the primary topic, but I can add a comment to the "below freezing" comment. For non car camping, I use a Primus Yellowstone Lite stove (3 years old). It's the canister type. It's supposed to be fine above freezing. But, I couldn't get it to work at all one morning when the temps had dipped to a mere 45 degrees Fahrenheit. By lunch time (higher temps), it was fine, and for a late dinner after the sun had set (dropping temps), it was iffy. That night, I stuffed it in the foot of my sleeping bag (which I also do with clothing) and the next morning, it worked like a champ due to my body heat keeping it toasty. Most of you know that trick, but there may be a few readers who don't, so for what it's worth... there it is. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/8/2004 4:23:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, bc_at_asdi.com writes: > After testing an Outback oven with my 20+ year old MSR on-or-off > stove, its clear that I need something that provides much better > flame regulation. Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer > and for precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the > best choice if simmering and flame control is of first priority? > My MSR Whisperlite International works well enough to call it simmering. It's also a multi fuel so I can burn kerosene where they do not have white gas. The Dragonfly simmered great, but the Dragonfly has a very CHEEZY weld on the bottom and regular use caused my 100 dollar Dragonfly to fail early on. I hate crap gear. The cannister stoves work great and do have a regulated flame. The problem is they focus the flame on a very small area and you'll carbonize anything in that area. There is a cannister/multifuel stove that has the more functional large stove surface. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The next best bet are the simple propane stoves that take the screw-on bottle. Anywhere from $15 - $30 apiece. Simpler to operate, simmer well, cheap, but you wind up carrying heavy cylinders. They don't work well below freezing, either. > On one paddling trip we reached 9 degrees F (my shoes froze overnight). I was carrying a single-burner Coleman propane camp stove. My stove was the only one in the group that would work. No amount of pumping would get the other stoves working. I had a long line of folks waiting to use it. It has never failed me in below-freezing temps. After that experience, several in my group "converted." Disposal of the empty propane bottles is a pain, though. btw, Walmart carries a stainless steel two-burner propane stove. Good price, lightweight, compact, good for salt-water conditions, and good price (around $40), made by Brinkmann. The only info I could find online was on EBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16036&item=7116725276&rd=1 Jackie http://www.muddypuppies.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Dec 2004 at 10:47, Jackie Myers wrote: > On one paddling trip we reached 9 degrees F (my shoes > froze overnight). I was carrying a single-burner > Coleman propane camp stove. My stove was the > only one in the group that would work. No amount of > pumping would get the other stoves working. I had a > long line of folks waiting to use it. Interestingly, I've had exactly the opposite happen to me, where my old Coleman 505 white gas stove lit and no other would. A hot breakfast in the snow was definitely appreciated by those with non- functional pressurized gas stoves. Here in the Great White North not many would put a lot of faith in a pressurized gas stove in the winter, preferring liquid fuel. When it gets cold, liquid gas stoves are more likely to light - however, it does take a bit of experience. Preheating the burner is as essential as pumping. If you don't use some fuel as a starter (or a starter paste for some) the evaporation of the liquid fuel won't happen and the stove won't light properly. There seems to be a correlation between stove success and experience in cold weather. I've never had a problem with either my old 505 or my Dragonfly in winter. YMMV. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackie Myers" <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com> > > On one paddling trip we reached 9 degrees F (my shoes > froze overnight). I was carrying a single-burner > Coleman propane camp stove. My stove was the > only one in the group that would work. No amount of > pumping would get the other stoves working. Jackie. It has been my experience that the cartridge stoves because they require heat (absorbed form the ambient) in order to convert the liquid butane/propane to gas do not work in cold weather.(note how the canisters frost up when used in colder temps) On winter Xcountry ski trips in to Baxter State Park (Maine/USA) in January I have experienced 10 to 15 bellow zero F. and the canister stoves only work if you keep the cartridges warm next to your body previous to using them, something not really feasible all the time. Liquid fuel Primus/Optimus and MSRs have never failed when used properly. Consistently I am able to have boiling within less than 4 minutes from the time I take the thing out of my pack. I higly recomend investing in one. You wont regret it. michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > The next best bet are the simple propane stoves that take the screw-on bottle. Anywhere from $15 - $30 apiece. Simpler to operate, simmer well, cheap, but you wind up carrying heavy cylinders. Yes, such cylinders are heavy (usually green Coleman ones, but those longer blue ones from welding departmments also work - same gas, same thread, different shape of canister). Although, who cares about 1.5 lb cylinder in a kayak? No, they don't simmer well. At least non-brand name that I used (Escort?), but Coleman $25 screw-on-top single-burner appears to have same narrow-band regulator. Another feature that I don't like in them, is that it is difficult to arrange wind screen around the burner lifted high above the ground. Altogether it was the reason to switch to Primus Easyfuel with its own supporting legs, good pre-heating system, wider range regulator, and built-in ignitor. Wind screen should not be placed so that ignitor would be between the screen and pot - reflected heat will melt its plastic housing. It is easier to simmer with a good windscreen. My other, perhaps less important, reason to switch to Primus was that it fits inside GSI "hard anodized aluminum boiler": http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=125 00226&productId=25030137 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I live in Wyoming, thus much of my stove usage in the winter involves cold temperatures and high altitudes. Canister stoves are certainly convenient when used within their environmental parameters, but I stay with gas stoves for their reliability on winter trips. One of my biggest beefs with canister stoves is the inability to know what my fuel stores are. I've used the MSR Draginfly over the last few years with complete satisfaction. Bought it used and it already had the improved pump. Switched this past summer season to the MSR Simmerlite as the Dragonfly is incredibly loud with its 'Boeing effect'. This really bothered me this year while camping on Shosone Lake in Yellowstone, hence the change. The Simmerlite is great and simmers better than the Dragonfly. The Dragonfly is now a backup stove and loaner. I also have an MSR Pocket Rocket, canister stove, used when car camping and want to make more involved meals than I do when kayak camping. The MSR Dragonfly, Whisperlite, Simmerlite, etc., are all great reliable stoves when used properly and maintained properly. Such use and maintenance is not difficult. Pleasant waters. Holmes The all-new My Yahoo! Get yours free! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> to many liquid fuels. I have a similar model called Primus Easyfuel > (without simmering control, I don't do fancy cooking in field, and it's > regulator has pretty wide range anyway). I forgot to mention - Primus Easyfuel doesn't burn any liquid fuel - only butane cartrides. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Disposal > of the empty propane bottles is a pain, though. When I first had empties (from my two burner coleman I use for car camping) to dispose of, I called the City. Talked to two clueless people, who suggested the County. Three clueless people at the county, but one suggested BFI, the local refuse collection company. Two clueless people there. I next called the police department. No clue. Called our equivalent of a hazardous materials office... clueless. I called the company who provided propane for supplying homes. Again, no clue. Talked to the manager of a hiking/camping store in this area... clueless. Well, I said screw it and tossed them in the trash can with everything else. Two years later, I accidentally found the right person thru casual conversation at one of my kids soccer games. His recommendation..... "no special requirements... just toss them." He did specify, "as long as they are empties." I still don't think that's right, but it's what I'm doing. Jackie... what are you having to do? Just curious. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While I don't think propane stoves are the best for kayak camping, I do use them at home and car-camping etc. I really hate the waste of the canister, though. I was delighted to find a little valve that enables you to refill the canister. I bought mine at Harbor Freight: www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45989 Jennifer >>Disposal >>of the empty propane bottles is a pain, though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > > Disposal > > of the empty propane bottles is a pain, though. > >> I still don't think that's right, but it's what I'm doing. Jackie... > what are you having to do? Just curious. > I spoke w/ my local camping store in Portland Maine about the recycling of butane/propane canisters. The answer from them was drain them fully and then punch a hole in the side w/ a claw hammer or a screwdriver, drill etc. to visibly show they are empty. Please do make sure you fully empty them before puncturing them. Then they are readily accepted by any recycling facility. Here in New England we are fortunate in that there is a fairly well established recycling system. Here in Maine we have the big dumpsters w/ bins for paper, cardboard, plastics and metals next to our big supermarkets and town and or public works offices. I am not sure what the standards are for rest of the country as far as establised recycling practices go, but once perforated the canisters are ok to dump in the recycle bins. regards: Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Michael Daly" <mikedaly_at_magma.ca> > Interestingly, I've had exactly the opposite happen to me, where my > old Coleman 505 white gas stove lit and no other would. A hot > breakfast in the snow was definitely appreciated by those with non- > functional pressurized gas stoves. Wonder if altitutde might have anything to do with the opposite results (being at a relatively low altitude in Texas at the time)? jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Dec 2004 at 17:47, Jackie Myers wrote: > Wonder if altitutde might have anything to do with the opposite > results (being at a relatively low altitude in Texas at the time)? I'd expect the opposite - altitude, with lower outside pressure, would make it easier for a pressurized container to dump its fuel. I'd guess that you were dealing with some combination of a relatively full canister, warm canister or luck. If you were in direct sunlight, the dark green canister can be warmed by the sun. If there's one thing I appreciate in the winter, it's sunlight! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I still don't think that's right, but it's what I'm doing. Jackie... > what are you having to do? Just curious. I did pretty much the same as you. Called around, fretted, wondered, pondered, debated, tried to find out if I could get them refilled (answer was 'nope'), then eventually tossed the empties. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Someone mentioned a refill fitting for those green Coleman bottles. I believe it is illegal in the US to refill them, but OK in Canada, yes? The waste inherent in all that metal, just for a little stove fuel, is ridiculous. . -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackie Myers" <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com> > I did pretty much the same as you. Called around, fretted, wondered, > pondered, debated, tried to find out if I could get them refilled > (answer was 'nope'), then eventually tossed the empties. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: J Pivovar <kayak_at_headwinds.org> > While I don't think propane stoves are the best for kayak camping, I do > use them at home and car-camping etc. I really hate the waste of the > canister, though. I was delighted to find a little valve that enables > you to refill the canister. I bought mine at Harbor Freight: > www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45989 Well, that's fantastic! :-) Solves the problem, the puzzle, the waste, the storage. btw, I prefer them for all kinds of camping. I find them very easy to use and boils water faster than any other single burner camp stove I've seen. Thanks for the link, Jennifer! Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here is the link which I found that describes the "illegal" act involved in refilling the Coleman canisters: http://www.scouter.com/archives/Scouts-L/199911/0503.asp I went out to the garage and checked my (recently purchased) Coleman propane bottles. The statement is still on the bottles. I guess if you don't tranport them, it's OK to refill them (wink wink). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackie Myers" <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com> > From: J Pivovar <kayak_at_headwinds.org> >> While I don't think propane stoves are the best for kayak camping, I do >> use them at home and car-camping etc. I really hate the waste of the >> canister, though. I was delighted to find a little valve that enables >> you to refill the canister. I bought mine at Harbor Freight: >> www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45989 > > Well, that's fantastic! :-) Solves the problem, the puzzle, the > waste, the storage. btw, I prefer them for all kinds of camping. > I find them very easy to use and boils water faster than any other > single burner camp stove I've seen. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Dunlap" <blackey_at_sonic.net> > How about a pressurized alcohol burning stove? I carry a Trangia Mini as a > backup if all else fails but wish that I could get away with only one fuel > source. Anyone know of such an item as a pressurized alcohol stove> Check out this site. if it is not there you wont find it anywhere. http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/english/menuie.htm theres some prety funky ones here. from the minis to the humongous 3 burner himalayan base camp Primus stoves. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
a more direct link to the stove page: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~we2a-sod/stove/stoveie.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> How about a pressurized alcohol burning stove? I carry a Trangia Mini as a > backup if all else fails but wish that I could get away with only one fuel > source. Anyone know of such an item as a pressurized alcohol stove Same here - carry it as a backup only (with 1 liter plastic bottle of alcohol). Though, short of losing some tiny LPG stove part in sands (happened once with no-name LPG stove), in my conditions of paddling I can imagine only one occasion when it could fail - that is when LPG cylinder becomes empty and if I don't carry a second one. Alcohol is ineffective and therefore bulky fuel, - even in a kayak. Though, it has its advantage in a day-trip; you can fill tiny Trangia burner with 2 oz of alcohol (1 short meal or coffee) and go, without any canisters or cylinders. I think that liquids can hardly be pressurized. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert MacDonald wrote: >>>>>The best simmering stove I have found is the old Coleman 505 "Pocket" stove. The ones from 15-20 years ago are the ones to get. They have TWO controls, one that acts as the classic "turn up to light, left to run and right to off" knob, and another that combines an orifice cleaning tool with a very precise and functional simmering control.<<<<<< I agree but let me pass along a word of warning. unfortunately these stoves have a limited life. The seal at the top of the fuel tank gets old and can fail when under pressure. The first time this happened to me I had got the stove started cleanly but needed to top up the pressure as the starting procedure bleeds off some of the air in the tank to improve the mixture until the stove gets hot enough to vaporize the gas before it is metered. (Note: the better simmering stoves meter vapor rather than liquid. once the fuel volume has been expanded some 900 times or so it's much easier to fine tune.) Anyway, I picked up that stove that I had used back packing for years and started pumping up the pressure to where it should be. Just as I started to wonder what was making my hand cold and wet, my hand burst into flames. I dropped the stove in the gravel and started beating my hand into the gravel trying to extinguish the flames on it. I saw the stove was engulfed in flames and realized the tank could explode if the flames burning around it lasted much longer. I warned everybody near to back away. My hand extinguished, I was about to try to dump enough gravel on to it to dose the flames when George Gronseth (who I'd met for the first time as or separate groups shared the same campsite) ran up with a pot he'd dipped in the nearby water. He poured the water over the stove to cool it and that spread fire all around the gravel area where I was cooking as the gas floated on the water. Several more potfulls kept the stove cool until the fire burned out. I don't know if the stove was fixable but after all the salt water it was all rusty by the time I returned home anyway. George said many people he knew had had similar incidents. I liked the stove well enough that I replaced it with the updated version. Now I pay a lot of attention to the possibility of a leak when I pump the stove when it is burning. I leave it on the ground and watch where I put my hand to hold it in place while pumping. I didn't get burned. The vaporizing gas on my hand kept it cool enough while it also fed the flames. Later, I wondered what it was about the fire that hade made my hand hurt even though I wasn't burned, then I remembered pounding my hand into the gravel to try to put out the flames and the source of the pain was clear. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com> > Someone mentioned a refill fitting for those green Coleman bottles. I > believe it is illegal in the US to refill them, but OK in Canada, yes? The company's corporate office is in California (took a while to find that on the website). I have never heard it's illegal to fill them, just not possible (not saying it is legal, though). So I don't know. If it's illegal, how can they sell them in this country... "HarborFreight.com" "America's Favorite Tool Store" Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Dec 9, 2004, at 8:18 PM, Greg Dunlap wrote: > Anyone know of such an item as a pressurized alcohol stove> There are designs for home made "pressurized" alcohol stoves: http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/BasicPressureBurner.htm I haven't built one yet though it's on my winter list as it would be a useful skill to have when traveling via air. I've had a devil of a time with alcohol stoves in below freezing temps, but they do work. Canister stoves do vary by quality of canister, the MSR iso-butane seem to function the best in the cold and they are said to perform better in higher altitudes. I've seen a hand warmer applied to the stove canister get a canister stove performing well enough to make several rounds of jello shots in 200 F temps. If you want an adjustable stove that simmers canister stoves will be your best bet if you are choosing from backpacking stoves. Larger, bulkier pressurized stoves may also work well in this regard Note that empty canisters may be left attached to the stove overnight with the valve open to equalize pressure and then crushed under the heel. In the U.S. to the best of my knowledge they can be recycled. -Warren (who is so new to paddling that he would have a 1/2 star rating) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I spoke w/ my local camping store in Portland Maine about the recycling of > butane/propane canisters. The answer from them was drain them fully and > then > punch a hole in the side w/ a claw hammer or a screwdriver, drill etc. to > visibly show they are empty. Please do make sure you fully empty them > before > puncturing them. Then they are readily accepted by any recycling facility. Well, maybe I'm just ignorant, so let me ask this question, just in case.... I consider my bottles to be empty when the burner on the Coleman stove or the lanterns go out. So, is that empty or not? There may be situations where that just means the pressure is too low to push the gas into the burner or something. So, is that empty enough, or do I need to do something else, like heat the bottle and continue to drain, or some other process, until the bottle is "really empty" as opposed to just "seemingly empty". Sheeezzzzzz... life sure was easier before I got hooked up with knowledgeable people :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I consider my bottles to be empty when the burner on the Coleman stove > or the lanterns go out. So, is that empty or not? > > There may be situations where that just means the pressure is too low to > push the gas into the burner or something. So, is that empty enough, or > do I need to do something else, like heat the bottle and continue to > drain, or some other process, until the bottle is "really empty" as > opposed to just "seemingly empty". It would be difficult to define when it is really "empty", since some percentage of this gas is present even in the air that we inhale every second, but after the burner goes out at room temperature, there might still be enough gas left to explode when tank is heated (as somebody wrote earlier). This is physics; gas will expand, increasing the pressure, when heated. Drilling a hole or cutting a slot through will ensure that it is, lets put it that way, *empty enough*. Though, I'm worried about possible explosion ignited by the spark when drilling or cutting. There shouldn't be any spark in normal process of drilling by normal human :-), but who knows... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> To: <M.Silvius_at_worldnet.att.net>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > Well, maybe I'm just ignorant, so let me ask this question, just in > case.... > > I consider my bottles to be empty when the burner on the Coleman stove > or the lanterns go out. So, is that empty or not? Rick: Around here in Maine the saying goes: " well now, b'jeeezzus - - - ya-can't-tell - - - - not knowing. ---- can-ya-now???? " (pronounced with correct Down East inflection) (( please forgive the religious refference, used only for contextual accuracy and implying no endorsement of any sort what so ever)) I should think it would be sufficient to run them dry, and attempt to relight them and then while attached to the stove w/ the control valve open puncture the canister???? no one ever blamed me of being to smart!!!! merry-rama-hana-quansmas to yaall: ;-) Michael *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/16/2004 6:54:52 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, M.Silvius_at_worldnet.att.net writes: Then they are readily accepted by any recycling facility. I've never had one rejected by my curbside pickup. I do leave them conspicuously each time to test. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I consider my bottles to be empty when the burner on the Coleman stove > or the lanterns go out. So, is that empty or not? Probably not... What I do normally is push a wire or thick toothpick down the connector to open the valve and let the remaining pressure equalize. Then I punch a hole in the side of the canister with a geopick. Never worried about sparks.... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have an Optimus multi fuel that is basicaly the same as the MSR (that I > have as well) but better built. No plastic parts. All cast aluminum and > titanium and can be fully dissassembled. All screws no rivets. So it is easy > to maintain and repair. > Optimus and Primus make very nice multyfuel adjustable stoves. they burn > kero, diesel, avgas, car gas, or white gas. Agreed. There is one by Primus with simering control (Primus Omnifuel, if i'm not mistaken), that also burns Primus/MSR butane cartridges, in addition to many liquid fuels. I have a similar model called Primus Easyfuel (without simmering control, I don't do fancy cooking in field, and it's regulator has pretty wide range anyway). LPG (butane) cartridges are probably THE easiest to use under most of conditions that kayaker could encounter, and don't need any maintenance. They are quite lightweight too (though green Coleman tanks are heavier, and don't fit to Primus stoves - thread has to be replaced). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Brian Curtiss wrote: Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer > and for precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the > best choice if simmering and flame control is of first priority? The Coleman Apex II is an unleaded/white gas model with excellent flame control. Plus it looks like the moon landers. http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=6934803&memberId=12500226 Also, I saw at the REI site that the oven manufacturer does not recommend that a stove with the flame over the fuel canister be used, due to heat build-up. Best wishes Ray Dangman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
IMHO - As a long time Outback oven user, nothing I've found works as well as the liquid fuel Apex. It will simmer and be stable under about any condition. Since a lot of baking uses quite a bit of fuel, I like the concentrated power of the liquid fuel. The MSR Simmerlite is supposed to be good with the oven, I haven't tried it. I have a concern about using the Outback Oven with any burner that is mounted on the fuel tank. I know people do it successfully, I still worry about overheating the fuel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When logic and proportion Have fallen softly dead, Remember what the dormouse said: "Feed your head. Feed your head. Feed your head" -WhiteRabbit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Curtiss" <bc_at_asdi.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] looking for a stove that can simmer > After testing an Outback oven with my 20+ year old MSR on-or-off stove, > its clear that I need something that provides much better flame > regulation. Which stoves provide the ability for a low simmer and for > precise adjustment of the flame? Are the canister stoves the best choice > if simmering and flame control is of first priority? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> canister, though. I was delighted to find a little valve that enables > you to refill the canister. I bought mine at Harbor Freight: > www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45989 How will you know when smaller tank is full? Looks like dangerous to me. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I went out to the garage and checked my (recently purchased) Coleman propane > bottles. The statement is still on the bottles. I guess if you don't > tranport them, it's OK to refill them (wink wink). "DOT-39 NRC 232/290 M1110 Federal Law forbids transportation if refilled - Penalty up to $500,000 fine and 5 years imprisonment (49 U.S.C. 5124) " - sounds like you're right, refilling isn't a crime per se. Would paddling with such a canister be a "transporting"? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:14:38 -0800, alex wrote: - sounds like you're right, refilling isn't a crime per se. Would paddling with such a canister be a "transporting"? :-) Getting it from where you filled it to wherever else you may take it would be a serious no-no. One of the big concerns is hydrostatic failure due to over-filling. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The concern about safely decommissioning propane canisters is valid. Running them until nothing else comes out is the best you can do for emptying. At that point, there will be so little propane inside (and no air), that it should be OK to penetrate the canister. If you are really concerned about sparking, avoid steel tool surfaces and carbide tool surfaces at penetration. A pointed brass or copper tool will not spark. In addition, if you submerse the can during the penetration, the surrounding water will protect you. A mild steel penetrator, such as a sturdy nail (8 to 16 penny is good), should not spark, either. It takes hard steel, such as the head of a hammer, or a drill bit, to form a spark. Of course, do the penetration outdoors, and wear safety glasses. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "alex" <al.m_at_3web.net> > Re: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> 's question: >> I consider my bottles to be empty when the burner on the Coleman stove >> or the lanterns go out. So, is that empty or not? > It would be difficult to define when it is really "empty", since some > percentage of this gas is present even in the air that we inhale every > second, but after the burner goes out at room temperature, there might > still > be enough gas left to explode when tank is heated (as somebody wrote > earlier). This is physics; gas will expand, increasing the pressure, when > heated. Drilling a hole or cutting a slot through will ensure that it is, > lets put it that way, *empty enough*. Though, I'm worried about possible > explosion ignited by the spark when drilling or cutting. There shouldn't > be > any spark in normal process of drilling by normal human :-), but who > knows... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 17 Dec 2004 at 12:37, Dave Kruger wrote: > In addition, if you submerse > the can during the penetration, the surrounding water will protect > you. The deeper the better. It will also make sparks a non-issue. Dave's advise is the best so far. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Though I realize in hindsight that it could be construed that way, what I said was not meant to be an insult to Scott. He is not self loathing and I don't know if he is a liberal or not. I wanted to articulate what I felt I needed to become to stop incurring the wrath of those on the other side of the debate. That is, to stop being called ignorant for not agreeing with them. Apologies for the misunderstanding because my goal is to keep debating to the facts without attacking the person. Steve Brown -----Original Message----- "Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> wrote: > I know, my ignorance is pitiful. If only I could become a self loathing > liberal, ashamed of the success of my culture everything would be better. That's a rediculously unfounded and extraordinarily rude thing to say. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Steve Brown" <steve_at_brown-web.net> wrote: > I am in favor of sensible habitat protection, increased coastal access, > water pollution reduction, and well thought out game management, but > hysterical exaggerations about the environment are not going to get my > endorsement or gain my cooperation in making things better. I can agree with that. Let's move on. I'm done. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Woof. It is very difficult for this native Californian (who left in 1966 for a cleaner, less crowded part of the West Coast of North America) to countenance a view of that cesspool down there which regards it as relatively unpolluted. I lived through the smog alerts of the '50's and '60's, and as a chemist, understand the huge investment made in pollution control laws and technology which allow the air in the greater LA Basin to be cleaner (emphasis: cleanER) than it was in the bad old days of no restrictions on emissions and no catalytic converters on autos. But, not cleaner than it was in the early '50's (yeah, I am that old -- and I go back far enough that I surfed on a balsa board, and had cherry point breaks to my lonesome!). To regard what Los Angelenos breath as relatively unpolluted, or to regard the quality of surface waters in Southern California as anything near to pristine is pure thought buggery. Chief Seattle's non-words notwithstanding, who questions that worldwide air quality and water quality conditions are deteriorating? Just look around, with your memory intact. Double woof. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> myself, are. So given my druthers, I'd prefer to see more discussions of the paddling > environment, and what we can do to preserve it. Perhaps such topics really belong to some other environment-oriented forums. I just want to check some thoughts. The least we can do (to preserve) is leaving campsites in more or less same condition as they were before. In national/provincial etc parks there are either garbage cans, or take-in-take-out rule. The problem is, what if it's not any protected area (no garbage cans or state-funded cleaners), but still nice to camp, and it is not feasible to fill and load a garbage bag at the beginning of long trip. I normally make a little bonfire before paddling off, burning everything that can be burned (like toilet paper), and throw in empty tin cans, then flatten them between two rocks, and bury in sand. (Throwing in aslo a couple of somebody else's "items" from previous days and years). A sort of making a sacrifice to the weather god :-) - though I didn't have a chance to notice his positive reaction so far. My understanding is that fire destroys protective layers on cans (made to slower down their corrosion), and they will disappear faster. Probably it would corrode faster in sea water, but in sand it doesn't increase visual contamination and won't cut anybody. Hopefully animals won't dig it out, since it doesn't have any attractive smell after the fire. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think cans last years when buried, but I guess it depends on what they are made of. I thought most were made of aluminum or steel, but not tin anymore????? Steve Brown -----Original Message----- ........ I normally make a little bonfire before paddling off, burning everything that can be burned (like toilet paper), and throw in empty tin cans, then flatten them between two rocks, and bury in sand....... My understanding is that fire destroys protective layers on cans (made to slower down their corrosion), and they will disappear faster. Probably it would corrode faster in sea water, but in sand it doesn't increase visual contamination and won't cut anybody. Hopefully animals won't dig it out, since it doesn't have any attractive smell after the fire........ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I think cans last years when buried, but I guess it depends on what they are > made of. I thought most were made of aluminum or steel, but not tin > anymore????? In food cans it must be steel (Ferrum), not tin (Stannum), of course. They look like covered with some other layer (to stop corrosion while they are in use). My understanding is that this layer can be destroyed in fire, so they will eventually last shorter. Anyway, I couldn't come with another solution. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I was young and dumb (as opposed to middle-aged and mentally fatigued), I made the mistake of moving a canoe to the water while barefoot. I sliced of a very large section of my heel on a burried can. I still had over a week to go to the nearest nursing station. I urge people to carry out their trash. If they can bring it in, there is no reason, other than sloth, for them to not bring it out. Richard Culpeper http://my.tbaytel.net/culpeper/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RICHARD CULPEPER <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net> wrote: >I urge people to carry out their trash. If they can bring it in, there is no reason, other >than sloth, for them to not bring it out. I agree wholeheartedly, however, I believe the poster was referring to trash left behind by others. Dealing with other's refuse is problematic at best when on an extended trip. Personally, I am usually able to avoid hauling canned items. As most of us do, I re-package food stuffs, commercial versions as well as home dried. I just detest the damned things! Holmes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I agree wholeheartedly, however, I believe the poster was referring to trash left behind by others. Dealing with other's refuse is problematic at best when on an extended trip. Well, I meant both mine and others' refuse :-)... Anyway, the one that cut Richard's heel, wasn't mine :-), I bury them above the high tide line. > Personally, I am usually able to avoid hauling canned items. As most of us do, I re-package food stuffs, commercial versions as well as home dried. Everything, but cans, can be repackaged for long trips. I couldn't find a tasty and convenient way of using dried meat so far. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some folks I used to paddle with, on the coast of BC, would save their empty cans and take them, weighted with rocks, to a deep area and deep six them. The claim was that the cans would quickly rust in the salt water and become a nonproblem for any one. I always wondered about the tuna cans, though. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Some folks I used to paddle with, on the coast of BC, would save their empty > cans and take them, weighted with rocks, to a deep area and deep six them. > The claim was that the cans would quickly rust in the salt water and become a > nonproblem for any one. I always wondered about the tuna cans, though. Good idea. I would give it #2 place after taking it back to the launch site ;-)... Still, burning it before that would speed corrosion up, - my rudimentary knowledge of chemistry tells me so. What's wrong with tuna cans, - are they aluminum? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 9 Dec 2004 at 16:38, Steve Brown wrote: > I think cans last years when buried, but I guess it depends on what > they are made of. I thought most were made of aluminum or steel, but > not tin anymore????? They could be either aluminum or steel - tin is long gone. Our kayak club cleans up Franklin Island campsites in Georgian Bay every September and we deal with a lot of cans. The aluminum ones (beer and pop) will melt in the coals of a campfire but do not otherwise go away. The steel cans definitely rust more quickly if they've been burned. Since we clean every year, we can see the results of only one summer ("fresh" cans) or more (cans we obviously missed in previous years). I'd much rather see them carried out and recycled than burned and left behind. In Ontario provincial parks wilderness campsites, cans and bottles are banned - for a good reason. If people were more responsible, the ban wouldn't be there and the rest of us wouldn't be inconvenienced. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/9/2004 4:33:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, al.m_at_3web.net writes: > I normally make a little bonfire before paddling off, burning > everything that can be burned (like toilet paper), and throw in empty tin > cans, then flatten them between two rocks, and bury in sand. (Throwing in > aslo a couple of somebody else's "items" from previous days and years). So let me comment please: You brought something into the wilderness and for whatever reason you decide to let items stay behind at your campsite? Why not just take a dedicated dry bag and bury them in your hatch after you've burned them? Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> So let me comment please: You brought something into the wilderness and for > whatever reason you decide to let items stay behind at your campsite? Why not > just take a dedicated dry bag and bury them in your hatch after you've burned > them? Agreed. I did so on the last couple of days (in a grocery bag, since didn't have any spare drybag). Just imagine the picture - fairly small foladble kayak (a pain to load and unload); already trashed beach - mostly commercial fishery and power boaters garbage, like broken beer bottles (can't understand why people are doing this), motor oil canisters with remainders of oil inside; ... and my 2 burned cans :-).... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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